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Questions I Couldn't Answer as an Evangelical (w/ John Martignoni)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ม.ค. 2024
- In this episode of The Cordial Catholic, I'm joined by the very cordial John Martignoni, an author, speaker, long-time radio host, and the founder and president of the Bible Christian Society to mine some of the questions that Protestantism - that I, as a Protestant Evangelical Christian - had the hardest time answering.
These are questions like that John calls the "pea under the mattress." Questions like what did Jesus mean in Matthew 18:15 when he explained how to resolve disputes (and how can it possibly be implemented in Evangelical Christianity)? What kind of unity was Christ praying for in John 17? And what did Jesus mean when he gave the apostles - and Peter in particular - the power to "bind and loose"?
These questions, and more, explored this week with John's trademark insight and straight-forward apologetic style. It's a great conversation!
For more from John check out the Bible Christian Society at:
www.biblechris...
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I’m a Protestant/evangelical youth pastor, and I’m currently discerning the Catholic Church and its doctrines. I would appreciate any and all prayers for Christ’s wisdom and encouragement during this time. I have a wife and two children to lead to the best of my abilities in Jesus’ name and according to His Gospel. I just want the Truth.
There’s a lot of Catholicism that makes a ton of sense to me, but there are still some things I’m working through. I’m doing my best to balance, “Fear not,” with my responsibility to exercise my will and faculties to discern Truth with the Holy Spirit. I also realize there’s too much information out there to consume, let alone comprehend, so there will come a decision point that includes faith and submission to any doctrine or lack thereof.
Praying and fasting for you, Andrew! If you need anything please reach out over e-mail.
@@TheCordialCatholic Thank you for your prayers! And thank you for being willing to talk as well. I really appreciate it!
@@TheCordialCatholic also…it took a second to sink in, and I realized I didn’t specifically thank you for your fasting as well. That’s remarkable. Truly, thank you. Blessings to you and your family in Jesus’ name.
I'm praying now for you and your family.
@@boom-bm1kl Thank you for the suggestion! I’ll have to check out his content.
Great interview. For me, as a rigorous Lutheran Protestant, I finally became Catholic after having a huge issue with the lack of morals and ethics in my Lutheran parish, on top of the epistemic issues with Sola Scriptura and its associated tenets. It's important to ask questions about what you believe and why, and I am glad you guys said that out loud. Because I've changed denominations so much, my family is naturally skeptical about my being in RCIA and becoming Catholic. It's like people have this hidden voice in them saying "what is truth?" so they think it's natural to have so many unanswered question continue to be unanswered. We need the courage to ask why, no matter what others think. Blessing!
The Catholic Church gets all the best Protestants!
Welcome home
This phenomenon is happening in Latin America too. Ex-Protestants now Catholic converts are using the internet to dialogue and talk with Evangelicals about all these things that nobody told them about concerning history, the history of the Church.
_Saludos._
This is wonderful! It's the Holy Spirit brining us back together like Our Lord Jesus prayed in John 17 I believe. Glory to God
In my experience, there are always two types of non-Catholics: NON Catholics and ANTI Catholics. My wife and I were the former, just ignorant of Catholic teachings; in fact, one of our friends thought you had to be BORN as a Catholic to be Catholic. But the grace of God led us into the Church- led us to our truest home.
Have you ever attended the Traditional Catholic Church? I attend the SSPX Mass, I found liturgical Latin, reverence, silence, truth and Priests who's sole aim is to save your soul.
In my experience, I never encountered a non-Catholic so-called Christian who wasn't anti-Catholic, but I'll take your word for it.
I go to a baptist church but was brought up Catholic until a Protestant preacher asked me why do I confess my sins to a priest and not go straight to Jesus? … I wrestled with that and with praying to Mother Mary. I am seeking the truth and a lot of what you Godly men are saying makes sense! Please keep the videos flowing regardless what kind of slack comes your way by us protesters ( Protestants)😅
It has been helping us seek the truth!!
Thanks for your kind words. I went the opposite way on confession. I couldn’t understand why, when the Bible told us we should be confessing our sins to one another, no one in my non-denominational church was doing that.
When I began to understand apostolic succession and the “binding and loosing” authority Christ gives the apostles, and how they passed it down, the Catholic Church started making a lot of sense on confession.
Marilyn, I grew up Baptist and converted to Catholicism at age 71. Thank you for your kind words. If you are not aware, Google Journey Home w/ Marcus & Johnmarc Grodi. They let folks just like you and me and all walks on f life tell their conversion stories into the Catholic Churc. I also listed other great Catholic resources for Andrew above. God bless you in your journey.
I’m so humbled by your openness to truth.
Raised Baptist, very antiCatholic, I was told many lies about what Catholicism supposedly taught and at 40 I found out I had been lied to about everything concerning Catholicism. Be careful when dealing with baptists trying to tell you what Catholicism teaches. Don’t get sucked in by their straw man arguments.
Also, they have a habit of quoting scripture, but they purposely don’t include certain verses. Say they quote five verses to support their position. You need to read a few verses in front or behind those verses, because there is typically something there that drastically changes the meaning of the five verses that they quoted to support their position, so much so, their position is obviously wrong.
Believe me i did go to Jesus direct to confess sins but i still didn't satisfy becoz am weak i have so much sins i can not face him alone there's a big wall of sins in between that stop my prayer reaching God. But when i go to a priest it become easier after i confess he give me advice like if u determine not to sin again God forgive your sins etc.. its like a private chat. I feel the instant forgiveness with the help of priest as Jesus give the authority to the priest to forgive sins as mention becoz priest live with us on earth i dont have to break that wall of sins or climb to reach to God, priest is like a gate keeper.
“I just know Jesus and the Church are one”
St Joan of Arc
1430
That's a profound quote as you know :).
@@billlee2194
I’ve had Protestants tell me
“Jesus saves us, not any church.”
Jesus saves us thru the church
It’s a mystery
For Joan, being on trial for her life and sitting in front of a panel of men of God, many of whom wanted her dead, she did indeed repeatedly affirm her trust in the authority of the Church and at one point declared, “I abide by God and our Holy Father the pope". This was a natural human response, a) because she was frightened and b) because Rome had a stronghold on Christian faith in the West at that time. Much better to have said simply that she put her faith in Jesus Christ but I understand why she did not - she was a young girl, albeit brave but nevertheless, a victim of the times she lived in. The Orthodox Church, the one true catholic and apostolic Church, that Rome left back in 1054 was unknown to her.
@@clivejames5058
The Orthodox Church is still unknown to a great majority of the world. No family has
5 dads. But the Orthodox Church has 5 patriarchs? One pope. One faith one baptism
One church. One truth one universe. One God
@@PInk77W1 You can't get away from the fact that in the first 1,000 years of Church history The Pentarchy consisted of the five ancient patriarchates of the undivided Church of the first millennium, established by Jesus Christ and his apostles. Their relationship with each other, despite various periods of rivalry and dispute, was generally in terms of fraternal equality and conciliatory decisions, which is as it should be (even today). Rome left and set up shop on its own. As a result, one leader = autocratic power. Joan was pledging allegiance to a Church that was only just over 200 years old but she would have had no idea since Church history, at that time, was suppressed in the West.
Why is it called the “reformation” when Calvin and Luther left rather than reformed the church?
Fantastic episode, brothers! Now the question is “how do we get them to see WHY this is important, and WHY they should look into it”?? So many “Christians” never take the time to really question and look into their faith 😢 I’m sure glad I did and still am. Is there really anything more important in this life than that, then deepening your faith journey and walk with our Lord?! Glory to Jesus Christ 🙏🏻
At the beginning when he talked about how one pastor says this and another says something different down the street at a different building, I could 100% relate. And the last several months since witnessing this over and over as a Protestant I started wondering why is this, how can you all be sola scriptural and still have different answers. So I started researching church history and the early fathers and now I’m pretty close to feeling like Catholic is the only answer to the one true church. Actually I just told my husband that if I don’t become Catholic, I don’t know where else to go…it seems that’s the only way. Please pray for me and my family.
Martinogni is definitely one of the most logical thinkers and one of the best Catholic apologists I’ve ever heard. Protestants are not logical because they believe whatever they want to believe, which is a want, or a desire, an emotion, an imagination. God gave us a rational mind so we can figure these things out.
I have to admit that this guest makes precisely the same arguments I have always made and uses the exact same language up to and including the reference to 'The Princess and the Pea' which is a reference I use as well 😅
Protestants are self-contradictory because they say the church lacks authority and that every man is his own authority, but then they make themselves into the highest authority and deny every other man the authority to interpret for themselves. There is a way Protestants could be coherent and that is if they truly did allow each man to interpret for himself and respected each person's individual interpretation such that no matter what each person said they simply responded by saying "well I guess that's how you interpret the Bible and that's okay". The reason that Protestants are self-contradictory is because each one claims that his interpretation must be obeyed by every other man, thus making himself into the pope of all other men, while deny the real Pope established by Christ.
Protestants did not get rid of the Pope; they made a million different contradicting popes 😢
this is the beauty of the Catholic Church, there's no catastrophe it hasn't encountered already. it's always a rehash of some misguided soul hundreds or thousands of years before
John Martignoni is one of the smartest Catholic apologists I have ever encountered. I love his books ( I got both) and his EWTN show Open Line Monday was one of my favorites. I just wish EWTN brings it back.
Agreed!
Excellent point talking about Protestants learning about catholic doctrine from other Protestants. It’s guaranteed to be laced with faulty reasoning.
I was once a fake Christian too, dissatisfied with stupid, unbiblical doctrines and the general chaos and confusion of Protestantism ... then the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the truth of the Catholic Church.
Man, you’re in a roll. Thanks for this content
I'm chatting to a Church of Nazarene lay person. Sharing this to discuss her thoughts on it.
Thank you for this one Mr Cordial!
@CatholicDefender-bp7my yes. I know the pastor and she has great faith. If only she knew of the fullness of faith.
Well, it will be interesting to see what this other person thinks of this video especially as a former catholic.
Love Mr Martignoni, been listening to him on Gary Machuda’s brilliant podcast ‘Hands On Apologetics’.
It is unbelievable the lack of common sense non-Cqtholic traditions have.
@CatholicDefender-bp7my Indeed!
Great discussion about authority, unity, division, etc. Your guest has clearly been in the trenches! Enjoyed listening to him on radio too.
Excellent interview!
Excellent discussion. It’s true what Sacred Tradition as written in Holy Scripture tells us that Jesus established one Church, Mat16:18 and he is the head of the body, the church. Col1:18
Thanks for watching!
Excellent! Asking simple logical questions is a very powerful approach. Thank you!
What a wonderful interview! Thank you!
I love this discussion and the cordiality.
So glad you enjoyed it!
Really appreciate this video.
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent content as always!
Much appreciated!
So much of my own conversion story is echoed here
Please have him on again !!
A great episode. Have gone to John's website and added his books to my Amazon wish list. Many thanks.
All Protestants are their own pope and counsel and only their views and opinions matter and the church’s they attend have to fit into their thinking and not the other way around, and so which individual Protestant is guided by the Holy Spirit from error, but everyone has different views and opinions and so we need a hierarchy to follow like the Roman Catholic Church, it’s why kings and queens ruled, a hierarchy that made decisions on behalf of all the people.
Because you like authority, and don't trust yourself and your own research doesn't mean that the authority you put your faith in is worthy of that trust. Its a great argument to say, "hey we need an authority to break all the ties," but authorities aren't by necessity, infallible.
@@blusheep2
Luther and Calvin were fallible creatures and didn’t like each other yet they formed their own churches and gave themselves permission to ordain bishops and priests they became their own pope and counsel, and this has become the model for all Protestants and all Protestant Church’s
@po18guy Nah. Cuz we don't call ourselves infallible.
@po18guy I don't know what you are saying? The "church" is Biblical. What you don't find in the Bible is the Roman Catholic Church or so many of its doctrines. There certainly isn't anything that implies infallibility.
@@blusheep2
Who gave you authority and permission to say what you say, Luther or Calvin or Wesley etc, clearly you are preaching by your own authority and permission and your own views and opinions, making yourself the pope and counsel of your own church which is yourself and you act on your will and not Gods will and interpret the bible to your truths,views and opinions and morals.
The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and the one true true and not the church of man making himself his own church like all Protestants do and then disagree with one another about scripture etc because they act on their own authority.
I don’t know what other denominations think or understand about scripture,but to me it seems in all truth that it’s infinitely and eternal impossible for the Holy Spirit to divide the people of God and his One True Church that Jesus Christ started upon his Apostles and their Successor’s that will continue from the day of Pentecost until the end of Time +++…
This podcast gets better every time🎉
Thank you so much!
I have to say that the biggest downfall for mankind was when the bible was put into the general public hands,for this started an explosion of interpretations explanations and what ever else that people in general thought about what the bible teaches.And this is why we have all these in numerous Christian denominations and confusion disagreements and even slandering and calling a church Evil and this is the result for the Bible to be put into the public’s hands???
Excellent 👍
Amazing
Hello brother,
How can I contact you? I am a Protestant looking into Catholicism.
If you haven't heard from either men, Google Journey Home w/ Marcus & Johnmarc Grodi. Protestant converts from all walks of life tell their conversion stories. Also see above the additional resources I gave Andrew and Marilyn. God bless.
I will help you if I can help. What questions do you have?
look for the email in the community section
My suggestion is that you don't seek him out. Instead go to Capturing Christianity's channel. Last year he began doing the same thing. He brought in the biggest thinkers of both the Catholic side and Protestant side to discuss all the issues that are at stake. Though I am a Protestant, Capturing Christianity converted to Catholicism, so his search wasn't to my liking. That being said, you will truly get the best of both sides and can make a really good informed choice if you take the time to do so.
correction... his search was fine. His decision wasn't to my liking. I don't mind people searching.
k-dog with another gem 💎
I didn't know John lives in the Birmnghan, Alabama area down there with David Anders :). Does anyone know if Fr. Mitch Pacwa is also located in Birmingham?
If you’re an evangelical
And u took every word in the
New Testament out that mentions
Peter, your religion or church or faith
Wouldn’t change one bit. That is scary
Great job!
Why is that scary?
@@blusheep2
The Bible has a lot about Peter.
If it doesn’t effect your faith or your church
That is scary.
@@PInk77W1 I can understand the part about it effecting your faith since he played a prominent role. I don't understand that how it must effect my church. Only one verse of all those Peter verses suggests that Peter is special in someway and that claim is dubious.
@@blusheep2
God left a man in charge.
That man was a sinner. We don’t like to
Be obedient to a sinner. We want to be
Obedient to God. But if we all have
Equality and do as we see fit.
We have no church at all. We have
Chaos. I live in a small town of 4000.
We have 1 Catholic Church and
9 Protestant churches. Why ?
Because Protestants have to do their own
Thing. Jesus said
“Father let them b one.”
One church is exceedingly important.
In Protestantism in general
The church has almost no meaning.
Mark Driscoll was the pastor of
Mars Hill church in Seattle. He had
15,000 members. A few people started
Complaining that he yelled at them. So the
Elders ordered him to go to anger management. What did he do ?
He quit his own church and it fell apart.
And I think it’s now gone. This happens
Almost everyday in Protestantism
When asked what Lutherans or Methodists believe about this or that?
I will always answer you would have to ask a Lutheran or a Methodist, I can tell you what I've been told they believe, but it may not be correct.
You look so familiar. 👍
Me?
George Tiller was a Lutheran in Wichita, Ks who was a notorious Abortionist. He was murdered in 2009. I'm not sure if that's who John meant, or someone else. There could easily be one like that in Omaha too. Dr. Leroy Carhart was a notorious abortionist in Omaha.
Truth is the two edge SWORD THATS WHY IT HURTS,but that’s not the only thing that hurts my but even LIES ANIT THAT THE TRUTH 😳😯🤨
What is alive Temple only ones is self so hand built is shadows.
As an evangelical I couldnt answer the question - how wide is a girth? As a Catholic I can answer the question, but I'm so lazy I couldn't be bothered.
po18guy Jesus and His mother have appeared many times to many people througout church history. Fatima and Guadelupe are two of many public miracles predoinantly about the mother of Jesus appearing proving Jesus existed.
@po18guy Prove that scientific proofs are needed to prove the supernatural visitations were real. You cannot.
YEAH THATS WHY THE ONE TRUE CHURCH THAT JESUS CHRIST HAS STARTED UPON THE HOLY APOSTLES AND THEIR SUCCESSOR’S ON PENTECOST IS CALLED THE ONE HOLY APOSTOLIC CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN CHURCH FROM DAY ONE FROM THAT DAY TO have one FAITH ONE UNDERSTANDING ONE MEMBERSHIP ONE BODY AND ONE WAY OF WORSHIP TO GOD
👍🙏
👍
Slightly offensive?
My challenge to you (my apologies for my abrubptness) - what questions do you have that Protestants CANNOT answer? Please give me one, or two, or three.
@@CatholicDefender-bp7my The answer is actually pretty simple, and it is this: The Unity of the Trinity. Do you not believe that the Holy Scriptures, the original autographa, was written by the Spirit of Christ, who is the Holy Spirit? Is it your belief that the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit are somehow disconnected such that there's no unity in the Trinity? That the Holy Spirit wrote God-Breathed Scripture, through the Apostles and prophets IS GOOD ENOUGH, and there is no disagreement between the Holy Spirit and Christ. Simple as that.
@@CatholicDefender-bp7my "Which bible did HE command that we read? The KJV?" Are you wanting me to recommend to you an English translation? But there's a bigger issue; if I showed you what the SCRIPTURES say concerning (1) getting Justified before God, (2) Jesus is THE ROCK the church is built upon, and (3) SPIRITUAL immersion (baptism) precedes WATER immersion (baptism) - would you take the Scriptures at face value and say to yourself, "Ah, so THAT is what the Scriptures say, hmmm..." - will you bend your heart to what GOD says through the scriptures....or not?
@@CatholicDefender-bp7my Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint as their Bible. Unfortunately Jerome and the Roman Church rejected the Septuagint and went with the corrupted pro-Masoretic text type in the translation of the Vulgate. The Eastern Church never left the Septuagint.
@@soulosxpiotov7280 The Eastern Orthodox Church got the Scriptures right from the founding of the Church until now. Rome failed and dropped the Septuagint because of the bone headed research of Jerome who was hood winked by the Jews in translating the Bible into Latin.
@@roddumlauf9241 I'd like to ask, are you Eastern Orthodox?
There is no problem with differences it was answered by paul. Before papacy in 610AD and the leaders were just bishops they have unity even hough each group are independent to each other.
Unfortunately there are too many ads interrupting this video every several minutes. Maybe you could change the settings to reduce that.
Play it in Brave browser, not the TH-cam app or another browser.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Ads are at least 10 minutes apart and help to pay for the equipment, etc. used to produce these videos. Thanks for watching anyway!
@@TheCordialCatholic I understand that you want to pay for things, and in reality the ads are playing about 10 minutes apart, and are so frequent that they make your videos unpleasant with their non-sequiturs, anti-Christian messages, and irrelevant offers. I don’t buy makeup or appreciate non-Christian messaging the ads push.
You may want to find a Catholic sponsor for your work so you can reduce the monetization settings from maximum ad insertion, as that has worked well for both Canadian and US-based Catholic content creators-and you could consequently get more viewers and so be less dependent on a company and advertisers that oppose Christianity.
I doubt you want to cede control of your work to the kind and benevolent “Sauron,” unless you don’t realize that your monetization settings are being exploited to hijack your videos.
Now you are politely informed that is the experience of us viewers.
Mmmm. I didn't experience any ads.
What's the rc do when the New Jerome commentary denies that Matthew wrote a gospel?
@@CatholicDefender-bp7my I don't think you answered Justas' question.
1st point - depends on what the differences are. But you go to the Scriptures and ask the HOLY SPIRIT for help.
Both parties will go and ask the Holy Spirit, and they will come back with opposing answers, is that the Holy Spirit and how do we even know it's the Holy Spirit?
GLWT
I've asked Roman Catholics questions - AND THEY DON'T RESPOND. Like "If Romans 2 through 3 talk about man NOT being just6ified by works, but James 2 says we ARE justified by works, but Romans 4 says NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS - BEFORE GOD!" - then who is doing the justifying in James 2 since IT ISN'T GOD ??
Romans 2 talks about man being justified through works before God; see 2:5-6.
Romans 4 talks about Abraham who was justified by faith because he did not have the law (4:15).
In those chapters St. Paul is making clear that the gentiles aren't lesser before God (or man) because of the lack of works; they didn't have the law, so it's not their fault.
We, however, do have the law and from our baptism on, James 2 applies to us.
@@nathanvangoor4979 However, you've missed that although where there is no law there is no imputation of sin, yet people will be judged by the law of their conscience. This is what Romans 2 also teaches. People throughout the world know that they've lied, or lusted. The only singular group who will not be judged by their conscience are those who don't have one in that they don't know they're doing wrong, such as babies. Romand 2 also teaches that the requirement to be justified is ABSOLUTE SINLESS PERFECTION. Now, if anyone had any kind of merit before God, the most likely candidate was Abraham, but even HIM was not justified by his works (Romans 4). For these reasons, we need the imputation/creditation of Christ's righteousness, obtained by FAITH.
@@soulosxpiotov7280 I do not think Romans 2 teaches that the requirement is "absolute sinless perfection". I don't see a verse that says that. Maybe you could give a citation?
Paul does not say that Abraham wasn't justified by works because he didn't keep the law written in his heart, but because he didn't have the Law given by God to Moses.
We do indeed need the "imputation/creditation of Christ's righteousness". But to say _that_ is obtained by faith is another discussion.
@@nathanvangoor4979 "I do not think Romans 2 teaches that the requirement is "absolute sinless perfection". I don't see a verse that says that. Maybe you could give a citation?" Romans 2 is book-ended with those Jews who look down on Gentiles yet they themselves do not PERSEVERE in doing good, and on the other book end, if Gentiles were to KEEEEP (FULFILL) the Law, they would be able to judge the Jewish people! The Greek in Romans 2:7 and also verse 10 is in the singular - if anyone DOES GOOD - SINGULAR - the entirety of their life is one singular consistent, persevering goodness, then they would have eternal life. For it is not the doers of law, but the DOERS of law who will be justified. This does not mean "a little here and a little there, last Tuesday," but a CONSISTENT, PERSISTENT, PERSEVERING CONTINUAL life of goodness in God's law - and there was only one who did that, who was Christ Jesus. Are you as good and obedient as Christ? Then you would be justified as Romans 2 describes.
@@soulosxpiotov7280 Singular can mean a single good work, a generally good life, or a completely good life. It's more likely to mean a generally good life as Zechariah and Elisabeth are justified in the eyes of God because of their works of the law.
Respectfully, Roman Catholics and Protestants share an underlying paradigm out of which the host’s questions arise and seem to have meaning. That is why the pro-Catholic arguments from TH-cam apologists and the like are so powerful for so many Protestants. Catholics have better answers to the questions that arise out of this shared paradigm. I see so many ex-Protestants on TH-cam posing questions and then showing how the Catholic answers are superior. But they never seem to question the underlying paradigm itself, the one that they share with Protestants.
This paradigm is based on a particular conception of God and God’s relationship with Humanity specifically, and all of creation generally. This conception of God gives rise to a problem that both Protestant and Roman Catholic apologists purport to solve. The problem is one of SEPARATION from God. It doesn’t really matter how one conceives of the separation. Protestants and Catholics believe that Original Sin has created ontological separation between God and God’s creation and that the separation persists through space/time until the proper prayer is said or the right act is made that closes that ontological gap. Of course one needs a God who fits into this model, and that conception of God is one that prioritizes God’s holiness above Love. This ‘holiness paradigm’ is what all of these apologetic videos are based upon.
That fundamental paradigm gives all of these questions their meaning. Apologists for this paradigm, both Protestant and Catholic, attempt to answer the same basic question, ‘How can separation from God be overcome?’. In Old Testament terms, the lens that Protestants and Catholics use to see everything is the age old and well worn Tree of the Knowledge of God and Evil in stead of the seldom used lens, the Tree of Life.
Jesus Christ became flesh to shatter our most fundamental paradigm, SEPARATION. There is no separation between God and God‘s creation. There never has been, nor will there ever be. The problem is not separation! So the solution is not getting me back to God (Protestant), or getting God back to me (Catholic). The solution is to “see“ in the here and now what always already IS (Paradox).
Remember that Jesus came to show us the Father. ‘If you have seen me, you have seen the Father’. Jesus is what God is always already looks like. This is what the Eucharist is all about. Jesus Christ (Divine Immanence) shows us what the Father (Divine Transcendence) is like (Paradox). They go together, Son and Father, always. Unfortunately, Catholics tend to focus on the former so much (the real presence in the Eucharist) that I wonder what happens to the latter (interestingly, I think one can see the results of this imbalance in images of God like the Pantocrator, that can and have been understood to represent a two-faced God rather than ‘I and the Father are One’). I think Jesus, in the Eucharist, gives us the eyes to see the Father. And those eyes show us that all humanity already participates in Christ (the Divine Immanence), just not yet fully. How could it be otherwise? ‘Eat my flesh’ gives one eyes to see ‘Christ in me’, and then once I begin to see that reality, I can see Christ already in you, and you, and eventually my enemy, for that is what it means to ‘Love your enemy’.
And then there’s the cross. Both Catholics and Protestants, because they view the cross through the lens of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, believe that we can only be in the Father’s presence if we are holy. So that through his life, death, resurrection and ascension, somehow Jesus either covers us in his holiness (Protestant), or teaches us to be holy (Catholic), both of which are based on that notion of overcoming ontological separation. The cross should teach us that the Life, which the Father always and completely gives and which is always and completely received by the Son (Jesus Christ), already includes creation, and therefore also includes the pain and suffering resulting from humanity’s missing the mark (sin). God always and at just the right time (Paradox) bears the suffering of humanity. BTW, God did not turn his face from Jesus on the cross. Read the rest of Psalm 22 and 23. This is what it means that God is Love. God does not do abandonment.
(Paraphrase) Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by Grace you have (already though not yet) been saved, through faith - though it is not your faith that saves you (Protestants) though it is a faith that you participate in, but rather the faith of Jesus Christ, which is always already given freely to all - and neither is it your works that save you (Catholics) though salvation means freedom to do good works, because I know you’re all (Protestant and Catholic) going to try to take credit for it in some way and therefore try to exclude some from God’s free gift. Everyone is welcome at God’s table.
For me, Ephesians 2:8-10 says it all. That is everything belongs to God. The grace, faith, handiwork and the good works. Our part is to use our God given freewill and respond to the prompting of the Spirit to have faith, submit to God and be transformed into the likeness of Christ so we can walk in the good works God prepared beforehand for us to walk in.
God bless.
"and that conception of God is one that prioritizes God’s holiness above Love."
That is wrong; at least the Catholic perception does not differentiate between prioritizing Love and prioritizing God's holiness.
I know I am being a pedant but I make the Catholic Church 1990 years old, and 1991 years old at Pentecost.....
I hope the rc is trusting pope Francis in all things.
Like yo mamma? Keep dancing for us,little clown troll, you amuse us!
You are trying your best, Catholics have had 266 Popes since Jesus and some were worse but still God protected them from teaching error and that is the fact of the matter. You can run around but the absolute truth will always be in the Catholic Church
He is a man and therefore fallable. It is the Holy Spirit Who guides the Pope and church to not err in teaching on faith and morals. The Pope is human and like the rest of us and makes many mistakes.
God bless.
@@johnosumba1980 How do you know God has protected them, if they are the arbiters of truth and not the Bible. Its circular.
@@blusheep2 Jesus who is God promised his divine assistance to his Church till end of time, you can read that in the Bible. Otherwise he also talked about those who will come later on with different gospel and he said he will tell them during judgment that he never knew them.
Take a look at the " scandal of blessings of same sex couples" ( "couples!!!", not a person with homosexual inclinations) that are now allowed , under restrictions, in the Roman Church. Who gave the Dicasterium the authority to go against the Scriptures?
This is the secular media take. I have read the documents and clarifications on this pronouncement. The Pope is only allowing blessing of individuals to be blessed much like the homeless drunk who ask for a blessing or the sinners and tax collectors Jesus hung out with. The Pope cannot change church teaching which declared marriage to be between a man and a women. Same sex marriage cannot be blessed. Yes, there might be priest who do it but they are wrong and Jesus warned there would be both wheat and tares til the last day. He question I always see as the issue is did Jesus built and leave us a 'visible' church. If He didnt, we need to question Jesus' promise. If He did, that church is the Catholic church. There was simply no other viable church that sprang up after the Apostles. That same church gave us the very book that we Protestants embrace. God bless.
I've asked Roman Catholics questions - AND THEY DON'T RESPOND. Like, "If Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone of the foundation of the church, DOES JESUS SIT ATOP OF PETER WHOM YOU CLAIM IS 'ROCK'?
@@CatholicDefender-bp7my Only a doctor or therapist can help a Roman Catholic who says "Protestants can't answer my questions" but refuses to say what those questions are?
The Catholic Church relies on Jesus, but the Pope is the most foundational part of the Church or rather the most concrete link between the Church and Jesus.
Jesus sits atop of Peter in the sense that He rules over him, but not in the sense that He relies on him.
@@nathanvangoor4979 "Jesus sits atop of Peter in the sense that He rules over him, but not in the sense that He relies on him" But if Jesus is at the same foundation level as the Apostles, since Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone, then the other Apostles also rule over Peter?
@@soulosxpiotov7280 Jesus is not at the same foundation level as the Apostles.
That's a conflation of the importance of Jesus and the structure of the Church. The psalm about the cornerstone is referring to the rejection by the Jews and the subsequent elevation to the right hand of the Father.
The verse where Jesus renames Simon to 'stone' (i.e. Peter) is the actual creation of the Church and you start at the foundation.
Now a foundation crumbles if it's not powerful enough to carry the building; and so Jesus gives Peter the keys of heaven so he has the power to be a powerful enough foundation.
The power to bind isn't absolute power though. So the other Apostles had a lot of autonomous authority as well.
@@nathanvangoor4979 Please re-read Ephesians 2:20-22, which shows that the church is built atop of the foundation of the Apostles and prophets - with Jesus as the Chief Cornerstone - that's what it says. It also says in 1 Cor 10:3 in the Greek text, word for word from Greek to English : "that Rock THE Rock", and now we have Matthew 16:18, looking at the Greek, the Greek article for the word "THE" is also there; "I say to you are Peter, and upon this THE ROCK I will build My church..." Jesus is both the Chief Cornerstone and also THE ROCK the True church is built upon. Please look at the Greek when you have a chance.
The Pope of this church encourages evolution. God said the Pope is a liar. So we should follow the blind?
Protestant response. I have a question. If Roman Catholicism has resolved the authority question, why is your church so divided? Why are some Roman Catholics calling Francis a false Pope. Why are so many Roman Catholics hurling vitriol at each other. This isn’t a conversation. This is two Roman Catholics throwing out all the standard misleading anti-Protestant tropes on authority. This isn’t an effort to truly understand the Protestant tradition or to represent it fairly. Protestantism can easily answer all your questions if you cared enough to do the research.
Individuals in the Church arent going to all agree with the Church’s doctrine / events happening within it, doesn’t make the established doctrine wrong.
@@dedforu4690 That is spin my friend. The typical Roman Catholic apologetics double standard.
@@paulsmallwood1484how? The Church cant control every single individuals opinion even though theyre supposed to agree with its doctrine. Catholicism has set doctrine that members MUST believe in, Protestantism does not.
The emphasis should be on SOME. Those Catholics who call the Pope the Anti-Christ are just appropriating the same language I used as a Protestant. And they should be ex-communicated, not for disagreeing with the church, but for being hatefully, publicly disagreeable. Right now there are roughly 1.3 billion Catholics in the world. You could excommunicate every one of those Catholics who are most divisive in the Church and we'd still have roughly 1.3 billion Catholics in the world. There would be enough excommunicated to fill one or two Protestant mega-churches. Because they are very few, but very vocal.
@@dedforu4690 That is absolute nonsense. You are now promoting falsehoods about Protestantism. Again, the characterization I hear from Roman Catholic apologists is that disagreements among Protestants proves how deeply flawed Protestantism is. However when Roman Catholics disagree it is “explained away” with this spin and that spin. Again, it is a double standard, it is hypocritical.and it is wrong.
I’ve never come across a question I had trouble answering on account of my being Protestant. Never. And I’m not sure why I click on these types of provocative titles anymore. They’re invariably silly and invariably disrespectful. Further, they are invariably uncharitable and unchristian. Please, quit doing them. You’re making people unnecessarily hate the Catholic Church….
As someone who was protestant for 53 years and has just become Catholic, I have to say that I find most Protestants who talk about Catholicism, lie about the Church's teaching and have zero respect for the Catholic faith. Speaking truth is not silly or disrespectful, it just feels that way to the person who doesn't want to believe the truth. 1 John 2:8-10 - "For the darkness is fading and the true light is already shining. If anyone claims to be in the light but hates his brother, he is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, and there is no cause of stumbling in him."
@@cheryl0327 amen
@@cheryl0327 Now, as a convert, do you really think its fair to say that Protestants are lying about the Catholic Church? Wouldn't it be more gracious to say that they don't understand Catholic doctrine rather then accusing them of purposefully choosing to deceive?
I grew up Catholic. I'm now a Protestant. I could say that I have caught Catholics in lie after lie. You see Catholics tell me all the time that I won't find a church father that disagrees with the church on this or that. Then I go look up the early church fathers and behold, they disagree. Now I'm not going to call the Catholic a liar. What I think is happening is regurgitation. They are told these things over and over and they have so much faith in the church they can't imagine that the church would deceive them.
I would agree that over the years there has been little respect for Catholics because in the Protestant's eyes, the modern Catholic Church teaches biblical heresy and through it rob Christ of his just reward.
That being said, I see quite a few Catholics acting the same way to Protestants. Vatican II anathematized most Protestants, for crying out loud.
@@cheryl0327….Amen!!