This is undoubtedly one of my favorite episodes.I am a never Mormon but an openminded Jew that loves Scriptures. MyFlexibility has alot to do with my own journey due to fact because I born with a disability! Thanks so much to both of you! Prayers for those who are sick that you mentioned at the end.
Oof! After what David said about loving the church leaders and the church and its teachings, I can NOT wait to see the episodes on Wednesday and Friday!!! We need that update!
Many scriptures claim divine origin. JS claimed the First Vision is the start of the restoration. He claimed he actually saw something, depending on which of the 10 versions you believe. However there were over 20 other people starting in the late 1700s who claimed to have a "First Vision" style of experience with the divine.
@@FieroGroosIt was mostly a reaction to the uncertainty after the American Revolution. Lots of people redirected their enthusiasm for political reform towards their religious beliefs.
Hadn’t watched these interviews until today and wow.. instantly in my top ten MSP interviews. Probably would have taken me a while to get to if not for the recent editing/combining into one interview. Thanks!
2:23:14 "I don't need the Church to be True, with a capital T. I need it to be Good, with a capital G." So much respect for you. ...And for your family, and esp your wife, who *must* have had her own serious challenges, both with the Church, and as a spouse and a parent, through all of it.
I'm having a little heartburn attributing benign intentions to a man who ordered the destruction of a printing press for telling the truth about his personal life. That JS was complex, sure. I'll consider David's sense of this. But not completely sold.
5:45 Pseudepigrapha. Bokovoy seems to put scripture, especially LDS scripture in the same category as fiction: fictitious author, fictitious narrative. Prophets are writers of fiction. What is the difference between forgery and much of scripture? 1.Literal authorship. A church leader writes a letter in his own hand. 2.Dictation. A church leader dictates a letter almost word for word to an amanuensis. 3.Delegated authorship. A church leader describes the basic content of an intended letter to a disciple or to an amanuensis. 4.Posthumous authorship. A church leader dies, and his disciples finish a letter that he had intended to write, sending it posthumously in his name. 5.Apprentice authorship. A church leader dies, and disciples who had been authorized to speak for him while he was alive continue to do so by writing letters in his name years or decades after his death. 6. Honorable pseudepigraphy. A church leader dies, and admirers seek to honor him by writing letters in his name as a tribute to his influence and in a sincere belief that they are responsible bearers of his tradition. 7. Forgery. A church leader obtains sufficient prominence that, either before or after his death, people seek to exploit his legacy by forging letters in his name, presenting him as a supporter of their own ideas. Joseph Smith did all of the above.
Small revision: the prophet Isaiah is 8th century BCE. Otherwise, I’m really impressed by David Bakevoy’s presentation. He’s a truly impressive scholar and has fascinating insights.
1:10:10 Foreshadowing to a future amazing episode? Loved the interview with the late Dr. Ritner. What a gift to Mormon scholarship to have his critical eye on the breathing permit of Hor!
If historical context doesn't matter why we're church members not encouraged to or allowed to read or investigate information outside church approved literature? CC non Morman history and Catechetics grad. As a historian in a country where our history has been constantly revised I couldn't find out the truth and just chose to ignore it. Ignorance is blissful faith then?
This series is really intriguing. Dr B. Has a unique perspective on the controversial issues the have upheld both TBMs and post-Mormons and their arguments. His middle ground, spiritually and intellectually, is persuasive and almost Buddhist. But what he means is this: that all scripture is fiction (in every faith) and that fiction is elevated to its privileged position by a tribe, a church, or a culture who accept it as key to community cohesion and order. Fascinating indeed, but a stance that will be thoroughly rejected by all fundamentalists, including a large percentage of the active LDS cohort.
Sometimes your education gets in the way of your faith. Faith is not blind obedience. Faith in trust in God that you don't know everything but you know enough to move forward with the hope that the understanding will come.
I know this is a rerun of an old episode. I see David Bokovoy as very kind and well read. I take exception to his view of Joseph Smith. JS coerced/exploited women and teenage girls into sexual relationships, lied to his wife about it and required followers to lie about it also. He hurt a lot of people. I don't see JS as pious and a believer I see him as manipulating and capitalizing at the expense of others.
Your take on Joseph Smith align with old arguments. I invite you to read and study the latest historical evidence in open contradiction to your statements above. Even many critics of Joseph Smith are starting to change their conclusions on Joseph Smith's polygamy and motivations.
I love this!! To lay any science-puzzel are all that the human-brain needs and then when the way of the history marries with humanitys needs to build moral and the quetion of life vs death, is the high point Thank you So much wisdom
I admire his scholarship, but his take on Joseph Smith is biased and overly generous, in my opinion. Con artists and compulsive liars aren't stupid and the lengths they will go to to perpetuate their cons and lies are ENDLESS. The fact that he inspired the faith of millions with his lies and cons makes them no less self serving. Joseph Smith would have been in a position to benefit from it all, that was his only inspiration, in my opinion.
Wow, as I listen to this interview it's all over the map. Interesting. Not impressed by this guy but great interview John. Dan Vogel is the honest guy with integrity.
Great videos that conservative Evangelicals should watch. The apostle Paul was I think a Joseph Smith. Those that can't see what Paul was creating, or what the writers of the gospels were creating need to reflect on the Mormon story. Each of the gospels are in their turn correcting each other and giving their own version.. of to them a beautiful story. But we then miss the message of Jesus to make heaven on earth, now. The Bible is a messy human creation, people wrestling with the idea of God, oppression and history. Apparently Jewish people wrestle with the Hebrew Bible, questioning it etc. There is not one meaning. It is us gentiles and especially us protestants who have gone astray.
If the Bible mentions again and again that God controls the waters and Moses must speak and act on His behalf because of his parting of The Red Sea, then why does the LDS church believe that satan controls the waters? 😂 Can’t swim on Sunday or on your mission cause satan will getcha! 🤦🏻♀️😂
I believe that Joseph Smith, read many books like the bible, the Book of the Hebrews, etc… and put it together like a made up jigsaw, and kept on and on with it. And like on my mission, I thought that there could have been many books like the Book of Mormon in all parts off the world, I did ask my mission President about this ! And he said NO !! Maybe Smith looked that way with the book of Abraham & the rest of the Pearl of Great Price . Remember he was a great storyteller !! 📚
No, because they're made up. How anyone can believe you have to know the secret handshake to be allowed into one of 742 levels of heaven is absolutely ridiculous 😂!
Any rational person knows via basic research skills; coupled with common sense that they B.O.M isn't to be taken literally. It isn't a historical document. It's a book that came from God's creation aka JS. It's a set of metaphors and allegories.
Pretty great theological work for someone who didn't finish grade there and was exposed to basically only trinitarian doctrine! Do you suppose that it could really be a true revelation? What apostate fools!!!
This is undoubtedly one of my favorite episodes.I am a never Mormon but an openminded Jew that loves Scriptures. MyFlexibility has alot to do with my own journey due to fact because I born with a disability! Thanks so much to both of you! Prayers for those who are sick that you mentioned at the end.
I am addicted to this series. Not religious but love all religious theories of all cultures and traditions
Oof! After what David said about loving the church leaders and the church and its teachings, I can NOT wait to see the episodes on Wednesday and Friday!!! We need that update!
Many scriptures claim divine origin. JS claimed the First Vision is the start of the restoration. He claimed he actually saw something, depending on which of the 10 versions you believe. However there were over 20 other people starting in the late 1700s who claimed to have a "First Vision" style of experience with the divine.
Shrooms? 🍄
@@FieroGroosIt was mostly a reaction to the uncertainty after the American Revolution. Lots of people redirected their enthusiasm for political reform towards their religious beliefs.
I’ve learned so much from these interviews. Thank you!
Mr. Bokovoy gives an awesome interview
These interviews along with the Dan McClellan ones have been my absolute favorite episodes. Thank you for the wonderful interviews!
That would be a huge NO!
@@marys.currie9026The title of the podcast "Are mormon scriptures historical"
Hadn’t watched these interviews until today and wow.. instantly in my top ten MSP interviews. Probably would have taken me a while to get to if not for the recent editing/combining into one interview. Thanks!
I’ve never watched a discussion so interesting and intelligent as this! Great spiritual insight.
So painful to watch an obviously intelligent and thoughtful human twist himself into a pretzel to justify his belief in the divine.
Wait for the next interview @jdsclassof09. He has an update. Or two.
Gosh, I was thinking the same thing, so I'm glad there will be an update. I'm really looking forward to it!!! Thanks Dr. D!!!
@@mormonstories I'm looking forward to it!
2:23:14 "I don't need the Church to be True, with a capital T. I need it to be Good, with a capital G." So much respect for you.
...And for your family, and esp your wife, who *must* have had her own serious challenges, both with the Church, and as a spouse and a parent, through all of it.
I'm having a little heartburn attributing benign intentions to a man who ordered the destruction of a printing press for telling the truth about his personal life. That JS was complex, sure. I'll consider David's sense of this. But not completely sold.
Not buying either. He was no different than the cult leaders of our day. Uses the same tactics
John is aging like fine wine!
The is a replay of an old video. I think 2017
5:45 Pseudepigrapha. Bokovoy seems to put scripture, especially LDS scripture in the same category as fiction: fictitious author, fictitious narrative. Prophets are writers of fiction. What is the difference between forgery and much of scripture?
1.Literal authorship. A church leader writes a letter in his own hand.
2.Dictation. A church leader dictates a letter almost word for word to an amanuensis.
3.Delegated authorship. A church leader describes the basic content of an intended letter to a disciple or to an amanuensis.
4.Posthumous authorship. A church leader dies, and his disciples finish a letter that he had intended to write, sending it posthumously in his name.
5.Apprentice authorship. A church leader dies, and disciples who had been authorized to speak for him while he was alive continue to do so by writing letters in his name years or decades after his death.
6. Honorable pseudepigraphy. A church leader dies, and admirers seek to honor him by writing letters in his name as a tribute to his influence and in a sincere belief that they are responsible bearers of his tradition.
7. Forgery. A church leader obtains sufficient prominence that, either before or after his death, people seek to exploit his legacy by forging letters in his name, presenting him as a supporter of their own ideas.
Joseph Smith did all of the above.
Good on you keep speaking your truth David
Small revision: the prophet Isaiah is 8th century BCE. Otherwise, I’m really impressed by David Bakevoy’s presentation. He’s a truly impressive scholar and has fascinating insights.
1:10:10 Foreshadowing to a future amazing episode? Loved the interview with the late Dr. Ritner. What a gift to Mormon scholarship to have his critical eye on the breathing permit of Hor!
If historical context doesn't matter why we're church members not encouraged to or allowed to read or investigate information outside church approved literature? CC non Morman history and Catechetics grad. As a historian in a country where our history has been constantly revised I couldn't find out the truth and just chose to ignore it. Ignorance is blissful faith then?
H E double hockey sticks for you. You can't go questioning what Rusty Krusty Nelson says.😂😂
This series is really intriguing. Dr B. Has a unique perspective on the controversial issues the have upheld both TBMs and post-Mormons and their arguments. His middle ground, spiritually and intellectually, is persuasive and almost Buddhist. But what he means is this: that all scripture is fiction (in every faith) and that fiction is elevated to its privileged position by a tribe, a church, or a culture who accept it as key to community cohesion and order. Fascinating indeed, but a stance that will be thoroughly rejected by all fundamentalists, including a large percentage of the active LDS cohort.
Sometimes your education gets in the way of your faith. Faith is not blind obedience. Faith in trust in God that you don't know everything but you know enough to move forward with the hope that the understanding will come.
If you don’t look at things objectively you can use faith to simply believe what you want!
I know this is a rerun of an old episode. I see David Bokovoy as very kind and well read. I take exception to his view of Joseph Smith. JS coerced/exploited women and teenage girls into sexual relationships, lied to his wife about it and required followers to lie about it also. He hurt a lot of people. I don't see JS as pious and a believer I see him as manipulating and capitalizing at the expense of others.
Your take on Joseph Smith align with old arguments. I invite you to read and study the latest historical evidence in open contradiction to your statements above. Even many critics of Joseph Smith are starting to change their conclusions on Joseph Smith's polygamy and motivations.
I love this!!
To lay any science-puzzel are all that the human-brain needs and then when the way of the history marries with humanitys needs to build moral and the quetion of life vs death, is the high point
Thank you
So much wisdom
I admire his scholarship, but his take on Joseph Smith is biased and overly generous, in my opinion. Con artists and compulsive liars aren't stupid and the lengths they will go to to perpetuate their cons and lies are ENDLESS. The fact that he inspired the faith of millions with his lies and cons makes them no less self serving. Joseph Smith would have been in a position to benefit from it all, that was his only inspiration, in my opinion.
💯
This is all set fascinating!
Messy us beautiful because messy is human! The messiness of every scripture shows that they were all written by human beings and that is beautiful!
Thank you for this amazing interview. I learned so much.
Wow, as I listen to this interview it's all over the map. Interesting. Not impressed by this guy but great interview John. Dan Vogel is the honest guy with integrity.
Great videos that conservative Evangelicals should watch. The apostle Paul was I think a Joseph Smith. Those that can't see what Paul was creating, or what the writers of the gospels were creating need to reflect on the Mormon story. Each of the gospels are in their turn correcting each other and giving their own version.. of to them a beautiful story. But we then miss the message of Jesus to make heaven on earth, now. The Bible is a messy human creation, people wrestling with the idea of God, oppression and history. Apparently Jewish people wrestle with the Hebrew Bible, questioning it etc. There is not one meaning. It is us gentiles and especially us protestants who have gone astray.
If the Bible mentions again and again that God controls the waters and Moses must speak and act on His behalf because of his parting of The Red Sea, then why does the LDS church believe that satan controls the waters? 😂 Can’t swim on Sunday or on your mission cause satan will getcha! 🤦🏻♀️😂
I believe that Joseph Smith, read many books like the bible, the Book of the Hebrews, etc… and put it together like a made up jigsaw, and kept on and on with it. And like on my mission, I thought that there could have been many books like the Book of Mormon in all parts off the world, I did ask my mission President about this ! And he said NO !! Maybe Smith looked that way with the book of Abraham & the rest of the Pearl of Great Price . Remember he was a great storyteller !! 📚
I love cornbread :D
No, because they're made up. How anyone can believe you have to know the secret handshake to be allowed into one of 742 levels of heaven is absolutely ridiculous 😂!
No one could read Egyptian but one 44:18 claims they can and discoveries prove interpretation is wrong ...but thats ok because humans are imperfect
HE IS A LIAR!!!!!
@@craigsandall5188😂👍
27:58 notes for future self....
This is an older rerun
@@beckywilliams7692it's replay. But that's also why it says (remastered classic) in the title
I know this is very confusing on labeling. Is he planning on doing another interview with Bokovoy soon or this is just to show a famous episode?
@louccideavon7116 I think both, vip episode with followup soon
Two new episodes are releasing Wednesday and Friday!!!
They made this very clear it is remastered due to the valuable perspectives
Brigham was great at the forgery part
I think JS was maybe bipolar and might have had massive bouts of creativity.
Any rational person knows via basic research skills; coupled with common sense that they B.O.M isn't to be taken literally. It isn't a historical document. It's a book that came from God's creation aka JS. It's a set of metaphors and allegories.
🌞
No. Next?
What’s that??!!
I DO NOT CARE?
Joseph Smith transformed the opening chapters of Genesis from the Bible? Hello? That’s defined as blasphemy and plagiarism. WTF?
Pretty great theological work for someone who didn't finish grade there and was exposed to basically only trinitarian doctrine! Do you suppose that it could really be a true revelation? What apostate fools!!!