I really enjoy setting up with the Marshall power section full on! When I used to gig, there was a pub owner who had the habit of turning down the guitars after sound check - so I'd "set" the Marshall master volume to about "5" so that he could turn it down to about 3 and be pleased with himself... not realising that the MV was completely bypassed. He genuinely didn't notice that the volume was the same as before. (It's the small wins which make life so much better.)
I have to say the after 20 years as a guitar tech touring the globe with all kinds of bands famous and infamous, the BEST guitar rig and tones I have ever played and heard -and hear me out. It was a stereo cab with an old vintage jcm800 on the left side input and the mesa rectifier on the right side input. It had the Marshall mids and the mesa lows and highs. Both amps with each power section made such great chunk and fullness. And to top that an A/B switch to the players clean channel- a fender bassman, so he had the two options, clean and dirt. The dual rig setup with one cab was glorious and something in the speakers from different amps in same box always sounded better than each amp having its own cab.
Before going to all of that trouble to pair the Marshall power amp section with the Boogie pre, I would change the Lonestar power tubes to EL-34s and compare that to the Marshall power amp section. It won't be identical to the Marshall, but it would be an interesting comparison.
You constantly amaze me how you don't ever run out of ideas while simultaneously not just scraping the barrel. This was some super interesting nerdery!
I remember a youtube vid I saw some years back. 10 high gain heads, 10 cabs. Switching the heads between the same cab made a little difference but not massive. Putting the same head through the 10 speakers - each were vastly different to the other. My take away was, once you get a head/amp that is in the right kind of ball park (vox, fender, marshal, messa etc) then swapping speakers and cabs is the way to taylor the tone. Swapping one Marshall type for another for instance, doesnt change things that much - when it does its normally the cab or speaker (if combo) the amp comes with doing it. Nothing in the 10 to 15 years since I watched that vid has changed my mind so far.
Great video!! You guys just reinforced my recent decision to move back to a rack tube power amp and various tube preamps to mix and match with different speakers like I did back in the day. A big power section running hot with the right speakers is the KEY to a great foundational sound and then using preamps to taste for getting the variety is where it's at!!!
Happy late birthday Mick. This video just proved to my that the Synergy stuff is so worth it. I run an SYN-1 into my Rivera TBR-1SL power section and it’s just glorious! Great video guys.
Great demo. I did something similar by accident. I had my Soldano in a loop of a GT1000 core using the 4 cable method and accidentally turned off the loop. Which essentially turned off the preamp and just used the power amp. It was WAY louder and clear while still keeping the harmonics. I was shocked. I started experimenting with different preamp pedals with it and got some amazing results. Since then I have been experimenting with a ToneX pedal in front of it with various amp captures, and it sounds fantastic with the Soldano power section. Gives me a ton of added flexibility without adding much extra space.
One of the biggest differences in the power amps could be that the Marshall is “wide open,” but it could also be that the Mesa is biased at 10-20% plate dissipation, which will always sound colder, have less headroom, and have more crossover distortion than a healthily biased amp at 60-70% plate dissipation (like the Marshall likely is). Happy birthday Mick :)
The design of the phase inverter (which can clip before the power tubes..) and the negative feedback circuit (amount of feedback + presence and resonnance if any) are very influential on the tone of a power amp.. As well as the power supply voltage. The bias and tube type is also important but sometimes not as much as people think. A good experiment to do is to replace the negative feedback resistor by a potentiometer.. That can completelly change the way the power section breaks up and sound/feel.
What a great episode! Lots of interesting, useful info here. BTW, it'd be good if the TPS faithful commit to supporting the channel by ordering some really cool merch from their store. Their stuff is not only top-notch but the customer support is simply the best there is. Just saying!
It was interesting to see how surprised they (especially Dan) was when they changed speakers. 11:00 I have spent some time down in the IR rabbit hole looking for "the sound" I hear in my head. Speakers make a tremendous difference in the overall sound.
That's exactly why Lone Star Special exists Mick... It's all in the power amp harmonics of the El-84's... Running the LSS in 5 watts mode through a Fryette PS-100 power amp gives you the clean headroom of LS Classic but the breakup of a 5 watt amp running in single ended class A mode... I love it and it's definitely to be experienced.
Is the Fryette PS-2 the same? It says it can handle 150 watts, and be dead quiet. I’ve found that both what you’re describing, as well as just a good tube preamp, that has the headroom, into a solid state power amp, gives another option, for folks who just don’t have the money for a $700 used power amp, and a 5watt tube amp, let alone a Mesa Lone Star. Love the Lone Star Special’s features, and they sound killer in general, on any watt setting. They aren’t ridiculously priced, as a lot of U.S. amps, in the boutique realm, that can do 30-5 watts, and sound killer still. I just wish they’d add an emulated cab sim balanced output, that so many amps have now, except for the really expensive ones. The difference of using a Cab Sim out, with an actual full tube pre and power amp, is just so much better, than any modeler I’ve tried. Aside, from running a modeler and amp in parallel or something. They also are a lot easier to deal with gigging. Sound guys love them, and one still feels the amp behind them.
Over the years TPS has played around with using a preamp (pedals) into the amp loop, so I wasn’t surprised by that. London Power uses power scaling (not attenuation) which allows the amp to shine at lower levels. I would like to see/hear an episode that features power scaled amps.
My takeaways from this video: 1. I like the Marshall sound. 2. I really like the Marshall sound through an open-back cab. 3. I really need to get a couple of Telecasters, or reasonably close clones.
we have to remember, when we say power section we also think, often without knowing it, about one more tube, i.e. phase inverter. The way it's tuned makes a huge difference how actual power section reacts/sounds/responds. I believe this is a part of Marshall magic. As a matter of fact I think when people say "this amp sounds this way or another", if we focus on power section only it is the inverter that makes all the difference. EL34 vs 6L6 - yeah there is some difference but not as much as people think there is. And when I said "I think", this is based on my *limited* tube amps building experience - just playing with the inverter I could make any "marshallish" power section anaemic or breathing fire ;) As usual another awesome video guys!
Pure genius idea for an episode, and very well executed. Lately a lot of my playing has been running an HX Stomp with amp models into the fx loop return of my Traynor YCV40 amp, which, like, the Marshall is basically running "wide open" when used like that. It's a really fun way to try this sort of approach of marrying different front-end architectures into a 40W 6L6 power section (albeit, yes, with digital modeling as a key component). I can switch between having a 40W Princeton to a 4OW Lone Star at the touch of a button.
Great experiment. My Mesa Mark 5:25 doesn't have a master volume, so "returns" into a wide open power stage. Might be worth a shot if you want to try an unrestricted Mesa power amp... although it's "only" 25w, which may not be enough for you lads...
The Mesa Preamp into the Marshall Power Amp just proves exactly why Metallica did the same in the 80's with Mark IIC+'s slaved into modded JCM800's. That power amp being wide open makes so much sense for a preamp like the IIC+ that can feel a little too... 'stuck in a box'(?) when its gained up.
I have an SV20, which is a 20 watt Marshall 1959, and I put a rotary switch in to choose my bright cap value on a whim. Stock its a 4700pf, but I almost exclusively use a 100pf for cleaner stuff and a 1800pf with a resistor in series for anything gainy. It makes SUCH a huge difference in the preamp voicing and what frequencies distort and how much control you have over that. Any Marshall style circuit should have that. I also have an HX Stomp. I love running high gain preamps into the SV20 power section. It's dope.
I have an SV20 as well (with matching 2x12 cab with greenbacks), it's finicky with what tubes you put in it, some just cause the amp to not function. Other than that and the plexi cover is bubbling off around the switches, it's an incredible amp so many sounds to be had. I'm going to look into this modification.
I've thought about doing something similar, but with a 3-way toggle switch, much like the 5W/standby/20W switch that is there already. Where did you fit the rotary switch?
I’ve had the lovely fortune to have done gigs with my Lonestar outdoors and in big venues with the master near pinned on 100W and it is glorious. Such a big, big sound. You can run the second channel at low to modest gain and it blooms like nothing else. I also did almost a year with EL34’s in the Lonestar and it sits nicely in a crowded mix. I mostly play Supers these days but I think I’ll bring my Mesa out again soon. Thanks for the reminder!
The most "compact" version of today's rig, with live use in mind, to me, would be if you got a Marshall power amp (like the MonoBloc series) alongside Mick's Mesa 50/50 power amp in a rack and use it with the preamp pedals like the Kingsley ones, with the Gig Rig handling the switching. It'd be heavy though! I cannot think of a power amp that houses both EL34s and 6L6s, but that would be even better. The idea of mixing preamps and power amps is an exciting one and opens a whole world of possibilities. Thank you for sharing that in today's episode. Take care!
I don't know anything about Corgan's rig, so I think it'll be a fun dive into learning about it. I thought that there was a Mesa Mark series amp that could have both, but I'm no authority on it. I think that having such a power amp would be fairly popular with people, especially in the modeling and/or Synergy camps.@@Iodine74
Dan and Mick. If you have not seen the Truetone Lounge interview with Jerry McPherson, please do. The most insanely comprehensive studio amps setup I have ever seen, including a computer controlled motorized mike stand and servo controlled combo amp knobs. At one point he somewhat cavalierly says the cabs and speakers make the difference. Love you guys and Happy Birthday young man
I'm sure someone has already pointed this out, but just in case...the Mesa Black Shadow 90 drivers are not, in fact, American speakers. They are made by Celestion in England, and are a variant of the Celestion Classic Lead 80.
I thought that I would take the time to RTFC before I posted this, I reckon that they did some custom doping around the Cone or something. I have been getting G12H-100s for a few of my boxes, but thought I'd get a quad of C90s just for the comparison. 👨🔬
Happy solar returns Mick, welcome to Club 50! Great show, it really shows the colours of the three sections and how those colours can be mixed into many different nuanced shades. Controversially, this is what is such good fun in the modelling world. Sure it “doesn’t sound the same” as having the real amps roaring in the room, but you can mix and match these elements wildly with great results.
Little sharing… HRD IV preamp in a loop of my switcher, and Friedman IR-X in another one.. (no cab sim!) By preset, pedals before pre or pre(s) to taste, strymon trio before the returns on the hrd iv (w/G12M65) and the 2nd amp is a hrd iii. Awesome like you say!!!
The Plexi volume controls are gain controls (that’s what they would’ve been labeled today), very early in the circuit, no surprise here! And the bright cap makes that pot a tone control way more than a gain or volume control!
A few years ago you played a bunch of different guitars and decided Dan's Red Gretch solid body (don't know the model) was very good sounding, perhaps the"best" sounding. The guitars you played today sounded excellent as usual; more from the Gretch would be great.
Thanks guys. Great stuff! There is an unfortunate tendency amongst guitar players to think of amps as a type of tube or pedals as a type of transistor. Like most things in life, it's more complicated than that. Thanks for helping to dispel those myths.
This very precisely show the difference in whole philosophy of those amps. Marshall has vary "weak" preamp section, but output section that is adding a lot. And Mesa has very clean very highheadroom output scetion, that is not coloring anything. To me, Marshall pre thru Mesa output sounded quite anemic. I must say, I was expecting bigger difference between cabs. It was significant, but I was expecting much more. Also this reminds me, that Metallica, allegedly, used Bogner preamp into Marshall poweramp in studio. This test showed, it has merit to do it
I don't know if you guys have ever done this, but with the G3 or any other kind of loop switcher (even the Boss line selector pedal) it's possible to put the entire preamp circuit of an amp into a loop, meaning that you can do all sorts of interesting stuff like switch between low and hi gain preamps on two different amps, while running both power sections simultaneously, or even cascade different amps' preamps together. Might be a cool idea for an episode?
When I received my Kingsley Juggler it triggered my journey through the Stargate made from the rings of Preamps, Power Amps, and Speakers. It's a wonderful mode of Tone-transportation. How about the Juggler into that Marshall power section into a 2X12 EV cab.....and those Two-Rocks might take you places too. Great episode, thanks!
This video proves (at least to me), that what most of us love about Plexis is the power section working, and not a gained pre-amp. Thus why I've never understood MVs on 4 hole Marshalls, especially in the age we live in of Power Stations and other post-amp volume management. I am but one muppet though :)
Marshall pre into Mesa power section sounded pretty damn good... It's still a desirable drive sound to a lot of people having the pres cooked, which is why they have a master volume
Marshall Superleads don't have a whole lot of preamp gain, and when you crank them the phase inverter also starts distorting and adding extra drive. Post-phase inverter master volumes work well with these because they let you get that extra phase interter gain without the ungodly volume. A Fryette Power Station is an expensive tool just to let you crank the amp, and a compromise of its own. Plus the company's support sucks so you better hope there's never any issue with it. There's also tons of modern amps that get all those classic Marshall tones without ever entering poweramp drive. They're just designed completely differently to make that happen.
Agree, I find if I want my JTM to sound awesome I run it pretty hot, but into a Captor. Use the -20db for monitoring. But mostly use 4x12 cab models in the DAW and monitor through good big loud speakers
I don’t understand why tube amps don’t all have emulated Cab Sim outs, for recording or going direct to a board. They work wonderfully, and because it actually uses a tube pre and power amp; the sound quality is just better, imo. Egnater Rebel 30, are great little amps, but they suffer from the same issues that amps like the Marshall DSLC and CR did with the bad PCB’s on many of them. I gigged one for half a year, before it went out on me, and it was the easiest live setup I’ve ever done. Sound guys couldn’t believe how much it sounded like the mic’d amp, and just how good in general it was.
@@CorbCorbin it's true, but my Marshall ST20H has one. And mostly, I don't use it. Because, the Captor one is better. And if going to DAW Two Notes Genome is better.
I’m sure someone has raised this - Andy Timmons method using two different amps? I’ve been doing it with a Mesa for preamp and poweramp 1 and a Victory with the same Mesa preamp as poweramp 2. Brilliant Mr T!
For me this is the missing piece in the jigsaw because I've always not understood how a pre-amp pedal gets you where you want to go if your power amp and speakers are somewhere else. And a very Happy Birthday to Mick 🥂 or 🍻.
Just out of interest.. I took my car to a track the other week and they stressed that it would need to be under 105db to get onto track.. It did make it just, but think I should take an amp with me too..!!
Great episode - love the sound of that Marshall power section. There's just something magical happening when you start to distort the low end, which the Mesa didn't do to the same degree! Oh, and a small footnote on (1:10); as someone in both music and IT, there are quite deliberate efforts moving away from specifically master/slave hierarchical terminology. Not trying to slap on any fingers, but as I've always appreciated your clear efforts on inclusive language, I thought it could be a good thing to know :)
My guess is that the OT in the Marshall is the main source of harmonic love. I’ve got an amp that is parallel single ended and each power tube has its own master volume so I can turn one all the way down. Then I can have a 6L6 and EL34 running at the same time and very quickly compare. I think there is more difference sonically between a 6V6 and 6L6 than between 6L6 vs EL34. Amp is a VHT Double 8. Handwired 1x12 amp that is really affordable
take away.. Gibson struggled with tuneage, scratchy pots, inconsistent roll off. Telecaster just sitting waiting for ol gibby to get it together :D All seriousness this was a great video and explanation taking this to my FM9!!
This a great video. I can hear the difference with these combinations easily. Only one problem... I can't afford the speaker cab let alone even one of these amps. To add to that, I am sure adding a few more amps and cabs would give even more sounds..... maybe sell the house? Probably learn to be happy with whatever sound I have and make it mine.
I would not try any of this and that is what makes it glorious. Just watching your curiosity and excitement finding new things was inspiring. Just what I needed. This will be useful for sure... thanks gents.
Hey Dan and Mick! Could you please make a video "fixing" or recommending some tips for the feedback "problem" of the ES330 guitar models? Cheers from Madrid, Spain! Love you both!
I think you're going to sound like you no matter what. Saw Derek Trucks last night with TTB and he'd sound like that with a Floyd Rose Jackson. HBD Mick! Big ups!
Wishing you a Very Happy 50th Birthday Mick.Hope you have a great one. And Happy Friday Dan! Very interesting to hear the mix and match between the two and the resulting sounds... Keep it lit guys.
The Mesa speakers sound better to me. I tried using a Marshall amp in a box into the return of my Mark V, and same thing, all the controls including the volume stopped working. Had to get the volume from the pedal. It was cool, this is why it is very nice to have an FX loop.
I love love this video! So fun. I've recently been playing around with a quad cortex running through some of my ol tube amp power sections (mesa, Friedman) and it's so fun coming up with interesting preamp \ power amp combos
Thanks as always for another awesome show on amps! I'm only a few moments in, but I've been watching all your amp shows for the last several weeks and the knowledge is so helpful. I use a Helix and LOVE it but I'm beginning to explore wet dry rigs (just got a beat up AC30 and pairing it with a Katana for now). Your shows are essential and I am so grateful. Thanks!!
Nice idea. It was interesting to hear how the combinations of different manufacturers' amp stages changed the sounds. I have a Fender BDR, a 1989 Peavey Bandit, and recently bought a 1999 Laney LC30 (probably the best amp I've ever owned). Assuming their speakers all have the same 8 Ohm impedance, and can handle the power, it should be possible to connect each amp to the others' speakers. The Laney's effect loop has a volume control, so I think it must be wired differently. I noticed that the solid state Peavey sounds really good, until I swap to one of the other (valve) amps, when it suddenly sounds "2D" to their "3D". So, what if I come out of the Peavey solid state pre amp into the Fender valve power amp? Or the Fender pre into the Peavey power amp? This may help to identify whether the valve amps' 3D sound originates in their pre or power amps, or even show that a solid state stage negates the valve goodness. One day I might get round to trying all these permutations!
I love this back to basics type of approach. Interesting findings. As soon as you introduce another variable things get even more complicated e.g. when you started playing with the 50w setting on the Mesa. We quickly run into the P v NP problem i.e. starts to get too complicated to keep track of all the possibilities. The Mesa pre through the Marshall power into the Mesa speakers sounded gorgeous. I get what you are saying about the subtlety and nuance Mick. I really wanted to hear this pathway starting the Les Paul (or even the SG: please bring this back). Also loved the straight Marshall stack. Not sure what you meant at the end about power load: can I plug the headphone out of my little Fender into the return of my Marshall without blowing everything up?
You won’t blow anything up as long as… - there is ALWAYS a load on any active speaker out. - you start with the volumes at zero and raise them VERY slowly to a reasonable listening level. Cheers!
Thanks for replying so promptly. I'm sorry, you might think me so thick I just don't understand your first point. I can get with your second point but it reminds me of this poem: Timing Toast There's an art of knowing when. Never try to guess. Toast until it smokes and then twenty seconds less. I could literally make toast on my Vox AC50 so i don't use it :( . Welcome to the 50s Mick - Happy Birthday! @@ThatPedalShow
Traditionally the Mesa C90 is made by Celestion for Mesa, you probably want to check the labels on the magnet, Mesa didn’t make speakers then, I don’t think they have started yet.
@@christopher-miles redundant? 🤣 they don’t sound anything like a Jensen, hence not American. I never heard an American sounding Celestion, so your point is sounding like someone who doesn’t have knowledge or experience? Perhaps both? If there is redundancy it’s from the failed attempt to get a rise out of this? Have a nice day!
Episode synopsis: two old guys switch around amp bits, they complain that it doesn't sound normal, then they switch everything back to normal and they really like the sound. 🔥Love you guys! 🧜♂🧜♂
Fascinating episode gents! I do recall seeing a Frampton rig rundown and he supposedly runs a fender blackface bassman into the front of his marshall. Pretty interesting.
Did you mention that in the Lonestar you have the ability to remove the Output (Master amp volume) and run both channels like that? That would fix the problem Mick was talking about with the Output knob throttling the sound of the channel. Of course with that you loose the effects loop, so maybe that's why it wasn't mentioned. But it would have been a good opportunity to A/B that with the Mesa run through the Marshall power section and back through the Mesa speakers.
Great idea for a video,, guys.. I wish this test was done with amps having the same output power. I would think the preamp gain structure would be different for 50W output power v 100W output power and I would've preferred this particular difference to be left out of this comparison. Also, how many people are familiar with Mesa C90s? Wouldn't WGS 12L have been a American speaker choice as far as audience familiarity goes?
This was a great mash up! It’s interesting to tear it apart. I think it’s interesting from a design perspective, and ultimately from a purchasing perspective. The reputation of different Tone components to affect the sound, may not matter as much as other factors? How it all comes together is more important. Too much of rabbit hole to open up for me! 😊
Folllowing u boys, and the curiosity of find my real sound start, I don’t have a lot of pedals, but is good start! HB Mick! Greetings from Caribbean Islands!
Hard to believe that Jim Lill's "Where does tone come from in an amp" or "...in a speaker cab" videos haven't been mentioned in the comments yet. Pretty compelling method and presentation. Unless one isolates variables, the comparisons remain suspect.
In order of importance, speaker, preamp, then power amp. Without the speaker, it’s just fizz. Try turning off the IR in your plugin. Preamp shapes the sound. Power amp just makes it louder.
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I really enjoy setting up with the Marshall power section full on! When I used to gig, there was a pub owner who had the habit of turning down the guitars after sound check - so I'd "set" the Marshall master volume to about "5" so that he could turn it down to about 3 and be pleased with himself... not realising that the MV was completely bypassed. He genuinely didn't notice that the volume was the same as before. (It's the small wins which make life so much better.)
That's wild. Great trick though! Reminds me of Lee Sklar's secret switch on his bass.
if you mean the phase inverter yup but power tubes distort little if at all.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY MICK
I love it when you guys say "It's turned right down," and the meter is reading 95 - 101 dBs. 🙂
I think Dan's demeanor and style of playing with each set-up told me more than what my ears heard.
Dan is a conduit to greatness
If you're like me, and want to jump back and forth between the sundry combinations, here are the time-stamps:
3:20 Tele > Marshall pre, Marshall power, Greenbacks
4:16 LP > Marshall pre, Marshall power, Greenbacks
4:52 LP > Mesa pre, Mesa power, Mesa C90s
5:28 Tele > Mesa pre, Mesa power, Mesa C90s
7:25 Tele > Mesa pre, Marshall power, Mesa C90s
9:36 Tele > Mesa pre, Marshall power, Greenbacks
9:55 LP > Mesa pre, Marshall power, Greenbacks
12:05 Tele > Marshall pre, Mesa power, Mesa C90s
13:05 Tele > Marshall pre, Mesa power, Greenbacks
13:43 LP > Marshall pre, Mesa power, Greenbacks
17:40 Tele > Marshall pre (EQ tweaks), Mesa power, Mesa C90s
18:38 Tele > Cogmeister, Marshall pre, Marshall power, Greenbacks
19:14 Tele > Cogmeister, Marshall pre, Marshall power, Mesa C90s
22:16 Tele > Marshall pre (cranked), Mesa power (MV down), Greenbacks
24:10 Tele > Marshall pre (cranked), Mesa power (MV down), Mesa C90s
25:30 Tele > Marshall pre (cranked), Mesa power (MV down, 100W vs 50W), Mesa C90s
26:20 Tele > Marshall pre (vol down), Mesa power (MV up, 50W), Mesa C90s
29:01 Strat > Mesa pre, Marshall power, Mesa C90s
31:53 Strat > Mesa pre, Mesa power (50W), Mesa C90s
33:05 Strat > Mesa pre, Mesa power (100W), Mesa C90s
ty
I have to say the after 20 years as a guitar tech touring the globe with all kinds of bands famous and infamous, the BEST guitar rig and tones I have ever played and heard -and hear me out. It was a stereo cab with an old vintage jcm800 on the left side input and the mesa rectifier on the right side input. It had the Marshall mids and the mesa lows and highs. Both amps with each power section made such great chunk and fullness. And to top that an A/B switch to the players clean channel- a fender bassman, so he had the two options, clean and dirt. The dual rig setup with one cab was glorious and something in the speakers from different amps in same box always sounded better than each amp having its own cab.
Can you connect a dualnrec and jcm 800 into 412 mesa os cabs safely??
Before going to all of that trouble to pair the Marshall power amp section with the Boogie pre, I would change the Lonestar power tubes to EL-34s and compare that to the Marshall power amp section. It won't be identical to the Marshall, but it would be an interesting comparison.
You constantly amaze me how you don't ever run out of ideas while simultaneously not just scraping the barrel. This was some super interesting nerdery!
Cheers Matt 🙏
I remember a youtube vid I saw some years back. 10 high gain heads, 10 cabs. Switching the heads between the same cab made a little difference but not massive. Putting the same head through the 10 speakers - each were vastly different to the other. My take away was, once you get a head/amp that is in the right kind of ball park (vox, fender, marshal, messa etc) then swapping speakers and cabs is the way to taylor the tone. Swapping one Marshall type for another for instance, doesnt change things that much - when it does its normally the cab or speaker (if combo) the amp comes with doing it. Nothing in the 10 to 15 years since I watched that vid has changed my mind so far.
I remember something somewhat similar but it was just speaker swaps. And yeah was surprised when I heard it.
Well said and on the money
Very creative. Never would have thought of trying all those combinations. Great show!
For direct comparison of the two power sections:
31:03 marshall
32:10 mesa
Mesa Pre, Marshall Power and Mesa Cab is an absolute winner!
Happy Birthday Mick, thanks for another year around the tone sun.
Great video!! You guys just reinforced my recent decision to move back to a rack tube power amp and various tube preamps to mix and match with different speakers like I did back in the day. A big power section running hot with the right speakers is the KEY to a great foundational sound and then using preamps to taste for getting the variety is where it's at!!!
Happy late birthday Mick. This video just proved to my that the Synergy stuff is so worth it. I run an SYN-1 into my Rivera TBR-1SL power section and it’s just glorious! Great video guys.
Great demo. I did something similar by accident. I had my Soldano in a loop of a GT1000 core using the 4 cable method and accidentally turned off the loop. Which essentially turned off the preamp and just used the power amp. It was WAY louder and clear while still keeping the harmonics. I was shocked. I started experimenting with different preamp pedals with it and got some amazing results. Since then I have been experimenting with a ToneX pedal in front of it with various amp captures, and it sounds fantastic with the Soldano power section. Gives me a ton of added flexibility without adding much extra space.
The answer is "Yes". :) This'll be a good episode. :)
Came down here to say this. ALL of everything matters. But what matters most is how it looks.
Beat us all to it LOL!
Marshall Pre into the Mesa power is a great illustration of why the master volume needed to be added to the Marshall
One of the biggest differences in the power amps could be that the Marshall is “wide open,” but it could also be that the Mesa is biased at 10-20% plate dissipation, which will always sound colder, have less headroom, and have more crossover distortion than a healthily biased amp at 60-70% plate dissipation (like the Marshall likely is).
Happy birthday Mick :)
THIS!
The design of the phase inverter (which can clip before the power tubes..) and the negative feedback circuit (amount of feedback + presence and resonnance if any) are very influential on the tone of a power amp.. As well as the power supply voltage. The bias and tube type is also important but sometimes not as much as people think. A good experiment to do is to replace the negative feedback resistor by a potentiometer.. That can completelly change the way the power section breaks up and sound/feel.
@@jcugnoniI agree almost completely, with the exception that bias relative to tube type is important.
What a great episode! Lots of interesting, useful info here. BTW, it'd be good if the TPS faithful commit to supporting the channel by ordering some really cool merch from their store. Their stuff is not only top-notch but the customer support is simply the best there is. Just saying!
It was interesting to see how surprised they (especially Dan) was when they changed speakers. 11:00
I have spent some time down in the IR rabbit hole looking for "the sound" I hear in my head. Speakers make a tremendous difference in the overall sound.
That's exactly why Lone Star Special exists Mick... It's all in the power amp harmonics of the El-84's... Running the LSS in 5 watts mode through a Fryette PS-100 power amp gives you the clean headroom of LS Classic but the breakup of a 5 watt amp running in single ended class A mode... I love it and it's definitely to be experienced.
Is the Fryette PS-2 the same?
It says it can handle 150 watts, and be dead quiet.
I’ve found that both what you’re describing, as well as just a good tube preamp, that has the headroom, into a solid state power amp, gives another option, for folks who just don’t have the money for a $700 used power amp, and a 5watt tube amp, let alone a Mesa Lone Star.
Love the Lone Star Special’s features, and they sound killer in general, on any watt setting.
They aren’t ridiculously priced, as a lot of U.S. amps, in the boutique realm, that can do 30-5 watts, and sound killer still.
I just wish they’d add an emulated cab sim balanced output, that so many amps have now, except for the really expensive ones.
The difference of using a Cab Sim out, with an actual full tube pre and power amp, is just so much better, than any modeler I’ve tried. Aside, from running a modeler and amp in parallel or something.
They also are a lot easier to deal with gigging. Sound guys love them, and one still feels the amp behind them.
@@CorbCorbin Theoretically yes but the PS100 has 2 channels and 100 watts instead of a single channel at 50 watts. It has more clean headroom.
Absolutely brilliant show! Now I understand why Mick's fizzing for a Marshall power stage. Genius!!
Over the years TPS has played around with using a preamp (pedals) into the amp loop, so I wasn’t surprised by that. London Power uses power scaling (not attenuation) which allows the amp to shine at lower levels. I would like to see/hear an episode that features power scaled amps.
My takeaways from this video: 1. I like the Marshall sound. 2. I really like the Marshall sound through an open-back cab. 3. I really need to get a couple of Telecasters, or reasonably close clones.
we have to remember, when we say power section we also think, often without knowing it, about one more tube, i.e. phase inverter. The way it's tuned makes a huge difference how actual power section reacts/sounds/responds. I believe this is a part of Marshall magic. As a matter of fact I think when people say "this amp sounds this way or another", if we focus on power section only it is the inverter that makes all the difference. EL34 vs 6L6 - yeah there is some difference but not as much as people think there is. And when I said "I think", this is based on my *limited* tube amps building experience - just playing with the inverter I could make any "marshallish" power section anaemic or breathing fire ;)
As usual another awesome video guys!
Pure genius idea for an episode, and very well executed. Lately a lot of my playing has been running an HX Stomp with amp models into the fx loop return of my Traynor YCV40 amp, which, like, the Marshall is basically running "wide open" when used like that. It's a really fun way to try this sort of approach of marrying different front-end architectures into a 40W 6L6 power section (albeit, yes, with digital modeling as a key component). I can switch between having a 40W Princeton to a 4OW Lone Star at the touch of a button.
Great show! I love mixing and matching speaker cabs and amps and this takes it to the next level. Happy Birthday Mick!
I bought a new victory 112 cab and connected it to my gremlin tone king combo and couldn’t believe the difference in sound. So much fuller..
Great experiment.
My Mesa Mark 5:25 doesn't have a master volume, so "returns" into a wide open power stage. Might be worth a shot if you want to try an unrestricted Mesa power amp... although it's "only" 25w, which may not be enough for you lads...
The Mesa Preamp into the Marshall Power Amp just proves exactly why Metallica did the same in the 80's with Mark IIC+'s slaved into modded JCM800's. That power amp being wide open makes so much sense for a preamp like the IIC+ that can feel a little too... 'stuck in a box'(?) when its gained up.
I have an SV20, which is a 20 watt Marshall 1959, and I put a rotary switch in to choose my bright cap value on a whim. Stock its a 4700pf, but I almost exclusively use a 100pf for cleaner stuff and a 1800pf with a resistor in series for anything gainy. It makes SUCH a huge difference in the preamp voicing and what frequencies distort and how much control you have over that. Any Marshall style circuit should have that.
I also have an HX Stomp. I love running high gain preamps into the SV20 power section. It's dope.
Are you running preamp pedals into the loop to do that?
I have an SV20 as well (with matching 2x12 cab with greenbacks), it's finicky with what tubes you put in it, some just cause the amp to not function. Other than that and the plexi cover is bubbling off around the switches, it's an incredible amp so many sounds to be had. I'm going to look into this modification.
I've thought about doing something similar, but with a 3-way toggle switch, much like the 5W/standby/20W switch that is there already. Where did you fit the rotary switch?
I’ve had the lovely fortune to have done gigs with my Lonestar outdoors and in big venues with the master near pinned on 100W and it is glorious. Such a big, big sound. You can run the second channel at low to modest gain and it blooms like nothing else. I also did almost a year with EL34’s in the Lonestar and it sits nicely in a crowded mix. I mostly play Supers these days but I think I’ll bring my Mesa out again soon. Thanks for the reminder!
I wonder what the settings are?
The reason i like the lonstar special 30w because you can push the power section
The most "compact" version of today's rig, with live use in mind, to me, would be if you got a Marshall power amp (like the MonoBloc series) alongside Mick's Mesa 50/50 power amp in a rack and use it with the preamp pedals like the Kingsley ones, with the Gig Rig handling the switching. It'd be heavy though! I cannot think of a power amp that houses both EL34s and 6L6s, but that would be even better. The idea of mixing preamps and power amps is an exciting one and opens a whole world of possibilities. Thank you for sharing that in today's episode. Take care!
Part of me wants to say there was a poweramp that supported multiple tube types. Corgan was using it at one point IIRC.
I don't know anything about Corgan's rig, so I think it'll be a fun dive into learning about it. I thought that there was a Mesa Mark series amp that could have both, but I'm no authority on it. I think that having such a power amp would be fairly popular with people, especially in the modeling and/or Synergy camps.@@Iodine74
Wonder what the Mesa would sound like with EL34's? There is a bias switch on the back of the Lonestar that allows swapping out the 6L6's for EL34's.
Dan and Mick. If you have not seen the Truetone Lounge interview with Jerry McPherson, please do. The most insanely comprehensive studio amps setup I have ever seen, including a computer controlled motorized mike stand and servo controlled combo amp knobs. At one point he somewhat cavalierly says the cabs and speakers make the difference.
Love you guys and Happy Birthday young man
I'm sure someone has already pointed this out, but just in case...the Mesa Black Shadow 90 drivers are not, in fact, American speakers. They are made by Celestion in England, and are a variant of the Celestion Classic Lead 80.
Yes, and truly British Celestions in sound too, at least to my ear.
@@reinhardhvidsten4163The Mesa branded Celestions are all Made in England.
I thought that I would take the time to RTFC before I posted this, I reckon that they did some custom doping around the Cone or something. I have been getting G12H-100s for a few of my boxes, but thought I'd get a quad of C90s just for the comparison. 👨🔬
Happy solar returns Mick, welcome to Club 50!
Great show, it really shows the colours of the three sections and how those colours can be mixed into many different nuanced shades. Controversially, this is what is such good fun in the modelling world. Sure it “doesn’t sound the same” as having the real amps roaring in the room, but you can mix and match these elements wildly with great results.
Little sharing… HRD IV preamp in a loop of my switcher, and Friedman IR-X in another one.. (no cab sim!) By preset, pedals before pre or pre(s) to taste, strymon trio before the returns on the hrd iv (w/G12M65) and the 2nd amp is a hrd iii. Awesome like you say!!!
The Plexi volume controls are gain controls (that’s what they would’ve been labeled today), very early in the circuit, no surprise here! And the bright cap makes that pot a tone control way more than a gain or volume control!
Happy Birthday Mick. May all your blessings be counted in dB.
Happy birthday Mick. My 50th this year too… have a great day and here’s to many more!! Rock on 1974!!!
A few years ago you played a bunch of different guitars and decided Dan's Red Gretch solid body (don't know the model) was very good sounding, perhaps the"best" sounding. The guitars you played today sounded excellent as usual; more from the Gretch would be great.
Big fan of that Gretsch too, and I got to play it at an Experience Day (and Red ❤)
I love these "mad scientist" episodes.
Nice work!
Thanks guys. Great stuff! There is an unfortunate tendency amongst guitar players to think of amps as a type of tube or pedals as a type of transistor. Like most things in life, it's more complicated than that. Thanks for helping to dispel those myths.
This very precisely show the difference in whole philosophy of those amps. Marshall has vary "weak" preamp section, but output section that is adding a lot. And Mesa has very clean very highheadroom output scetion, that is not coloring anything.
To me, Marshall pre thru Mesa output sounded quite anemic.
I must say, I was expecting bigger difference between cabs. It was significant, but I was expecting much more.
Also this reminds me, that Metallica, allegedly, used Bogner preamp into Marshall poweramp in studio. This test showed, it has merit to do it
I don't know if you guys have ever done this, but with the G3 or any other kind of loop switcher (even the Boss line selector pedal) it's possible to put the entire preamp circuit of an amp into a loop, meaning that you can do all sorts of interesting stuff like switch between low and hi gain preamps on two different amps, while running both power sections simultaneously, or even cascade different amps' preamps together. Might be a cool idea for an episode?
Yes. In most of the shows we’ve done on external pres this is exactly how it’s done. Could be fun to make it the subject of a whole show.
When I received my Kingsley Juggler it triggered my journey through the Stargate made from the rings of Preamps, Power Amps, and Speakers. It's a wonderful mode of Tone-transportation. How about the Juggler into that Marshall power section into a 2X12 EV cab.....and those Two-Rocks might take you places too. Great episode, thanks!
This video proves (at least to me), that what most of us love about Plexis is the power section working, and not a gained pre-amp. Thus why I've never understood MVs on 4 hole Marshalls, especially in the age we live in of Power Stations and other post-amp volume management. I am but one muppet though :)
Marshall pre into Mesa power section sounded pretty damn good... It's still a desirable drive sound to a lot of people having the pres cooked, which is why they have a master volume
Marshall Superleads don't have a whole lot of preamp gain, and when you crank them the phase inverter also starts distorting and adding extra drive. Post-phase inverter master volumes work well with these because they let you get that extra phase interter gain without the ungodly volume.
A Fryette Power Station is an expensive tool just to let you crank the amp, and a compromise of its own. Plus the company's support sucks so you better hope there's never any issue with it.
There's also tons of modern amps that get all those classic Marshall tones without ever entering poweramp drive. They're just designed completely differently to make that happen.
Agree, I find if I want my JTM to sound awesome I run it pretty hot, but into a Captor. Use the -20db for monitoring. But mostly use 4x12 cab models in the DAW and monitor through good big loud speakers
I don’t understand why tube amps don’t all have emulated Cab Sim outs, for recording or going direct to a board.
They work wonderfully, and because it actually uses a tube pre and power amp; the sound quality is just better, imo.
Egnater Rebel 30, are great little amps, but they suffer from the same issues that amps like the Marshall DSLC and CR did with the bad PCB’s on many of them.
I gigged one for half a year, before it went out on me, and it was the easiest live setup I’ve ever done. Sound guys couldn’t believe how much it sounded like the mic’d amp, and just how good in general it was.
@@CorbCorbin it's true, but my Marshall ST20H has one. And mostly, I don't use it. Because, the Captor one is better. And if going to DAW Two Notes Genome is better.
The amount of glee on Mick's face @9:17 is so great. I love watching these guys.
Very interesting stuff! Thanks for keeping analog amps alive guys!!! Happy Birthday Mick!!! Hope you have a great day!!!
Mesa pre, Marshall power, Mesa cab was a pretty incredible combo. Cool show, happy birthday Mick
Sounds like it’s time to try a Matchless Chieftain on the show since you’re showing some love to the EL34s ;) they’re glorious.
I’m sure someone has raised this - Andy Timmons method using two different amps? I’ve been doing it with a Mesa for preamp and poweramp 1 and a Victory with the same Mesa preamp as poweramp 2. Brilliant Mr T!
Andy Timmons for a long time ran a Mesa Lone Star with a Mesa Stiletto Deuce (Marshall style amp with EL34s). It's a fabulous combination.
For me this is the missing piece in the jigsaw because I've always not understood how a pre-amp pedal gets you where you want to go if your power amp and speakers are somewhere else. And a very Happy Birthday to Mick 🥂 or 🍻.
Just out of interest.. I took my car to a track the other week and they stressed that it would need to be under 105db to get onto track..
It did make it just, but think I should take an amp with me too..!!
Great episode - love the sound of that Marshall power section. There's just something magical happening when you start to distort the low end, which the Mesa didn't do to the same degree!
Oh, and a small footnote on (1:10); as someone in both music and IT, there are quite deliberate efforts moving away from specifically master/slave hierarchical terminology. Not trying to slap on any fingers, but as I've always appreciated your clear efforts on inclusive language, I thought it could be a good thing to know :)
The answer to your thumbnail’s question is YES.
My guess is that the OT in the Marshall is the main source of harmonic love. I’ve got an amp that is parallel single ended and each power tube has its own master volume so I can turn one all the way down. Then I can have a 6L6 and EL34 running at the same time and very quickly compare. I think there is more difference sonically between a 6V6 and 6L6 than between 6L6 vs EL34. Amp is a VHT Double 8. Handwired 1x12 amp that is really affordable
take away.. Gibson struggled with tuneage, scratchy pots, inconsistent roll off. Telecaster just sitting waiting for ol gibby to get it together :D
All seriousness this was a great video and explanation taking this to my FM9!!
I have always like that Hughes and Kettner cab
Normally I prefer the Dan bits in TPS. But this time, Mick really brought it home for me. Hot DAMN I love this show!
This a great video. I can hear the difference with these combinations easily. Only one problem... I can't afford the speaker cab let alone even one of these amps. To add to that, I am sure adding a few more amps and cabs would give even more sounds..... maybe sell the house? Probably learn to be happy with whatever sound I have and make it mine.
I would not try any of this and that is what makes it glorious. Just watching your curiosity and excitement finding new things was inspiring. Just what I needed. This will be useful for sure... thanks gents.
Hey Dan and Mick! Could you please make a video "fixing" or recommending some tips for the feedback "problem" of the ES330 guitar models? Cheers from Madrid, Spain! Love you both!
Happy Birthday, Mick! My wife, Susan shares your DOB. Happy 50th to you both!!! Lots of love out to you Dan, as well.
I think you're going to sound like you no matter what. Saw Derek Trucks last night with TTB and he'd sound like that with a Floyd Rose Jackson. HBD Mick! Big ups!
Mesa Road King anyone? Fun episode, thanks guys!
Wishing you a Very Happy 50th Birthday Mick.Hope you have a great one. And Happy Friday Dan! Very interesting to hear the mix and match between the two and the resulting sounds... Keep it lit guys.
The Mesa speakers sound better to me. I tried using a Marshall amp in a box into the return of my Mark V, and same thing, all the controls including the volume stopped working. Had to get the volume from the pedal. It was cool, this is why it is very nice to have an FX loop.
Would like to see some of the Kingsley preamps into the Marshal’s power section.
I love love this video! So fun. I've recently been playing around with a quad cortex running through some of my ol tube amp power sections (mesa, Friedman) and it's so fun coming up with interesting preamp \ power amp combos
put a Treble booster into a Kingsley preamp into the Marshall Power amp. Job done
Happy birthday mick! It was mine yesterday (14th March) and I got one of your new t shirts for it. Loved it!
Happy Birthday! Mine was the 13th!
@@scottcurry4116 Thank you! and Happy Birthday to your as well!
Thanks as always for another awesome show on amps! I'm only a few moments in, but I've been watching all your amp shows for the last several weeks and the knowledge is so helpful. I use a Helix and LOVE it but I'm beginning to explore wet dry rigs (just got a beat up AC30 and pairing it with a Katana for now). Your shows are essential and I am so grateful. Thanks!!
Nice idea. It was interesting to hear how the combinations of different manufacturers' amp stages changed the sounds. I have a Fender BDR, a 1989 Peavey Bandit, and recently bought a 1999 Laney LC30 (probably the best amp I've ever owned). Assuming their speakers all have the same 8 Ohm impedance, and can handle the power, it should be possible to connect each amp to the others' speakers. The Laney's effect loop has a volume control, so I think it must be wired differently.
I noticed that the solid state Peavey sounds really good, until I swap to one of the other (valve) amps, when it suddenly sounds "2D" to their "3D". So, what if I come out of the Peavey solid state pre amp into the Fender valve power amp? Or the Fender pre into the Peavey power amp? This may help to identify whether the valve amps' 3D sound originates in their pre or power amps, or even show that a solid state stage negates the valve goodness. One day I might get round to trying all these permutations!
Happy Birthday Mick! Hope you have a lovely day. Thanks leg-ends I’m going to enjoy this!
I love how much you enjoy this, I can see in your eyes that those tests were very exciting to you both 😂
I love this back to basics type of approach. Interesting findings. As soon as you introduce another variable things get even more complicated e.g. when you started playing with the 50w setting on the Mesa. We quickly run into the P v NP problem i.e. starts to get too complicated to keep track of all the possibilities.
The Mesa pre through the Marshall power into the Mesa speakers sounded gorgeous. I get what you are saying about the subtlety and nuance Mick. I really wanted to hear this pathway starting the Les Paul (or even the SG: please bring this back). Also loved the straight Marshall stack.
Not sure what you meant at the end about power load: can I plug the headphone out of my little Fender into the return of my Marshall without blowing everything up?
You won’t blow anything up as long as…
- there is ALWAYS a load on any active speaker out.
- you start with the volumes at zero and raise them VERY slowly to a reasonable listening level.
Cheers!
Thanks for replying so promptly. I'm sorry, you might think me so thick I just don't understand your first point.
I can get with your second point but it reminds me of this poem:
Timing Toast
There's an art of knowing when.
Never try to guess.
Toast until it smokes and then
twenty seconds less.
I could literally make toast on my Vox AC50 so i don't use it :( . Welcome to the 50s Mick - Happy Birthday!
@@ThatPedalShow
Traditionally the Mesa C90 is made by Celestion for Mesa, you probably want to check the labels on the magnet, Mesa didn’t make speakers then, I don’t think they have started yet.
I know, I know.
@@ThatPedalShow okay I only mentioned it because you said “American” speaker
@@donsmith5385 this seems like a redundant statement; isn't jensen made in italy? they are american voiced i'm assuming. LOL!
@@christopher-miles redundant? 🤣 they don’t sound anything like a Jensen, hence not American. I never heard an American sounding Celestion, so your point is sounding like someone who doesn’t have knowledge or experience? Perhaps both? If there is redundancy it’s from the failed attempt to get a rise out of this? Have a nice day!
Another run around the sun…..Happy BDay Mick. Hope it’s the best ever. Rock on..!
Happy birthday Mick. My favourite is the Boogie pre into the Marshall section.
HBD Mick! Kingsley into a bunch of different power amps and speaker cabs could be a follow-up show.
Makes me interested to try my Vox AC30s two preamp channels through my Marshall JTM power amp
Episode synopsis: two old guys switch around amp bits, they complain that it doesn't sound normal, then they switch everything back to normal and they really like the sound. 🔥Love you guys! 🧜♂🧜♂
You must be watching a different video!? Preferred pairing was Mesa > Marshall! And then whatever cab!
Thanks for the response. This is a symptom of my aging, youtube-addled mind. @@ThatPedalShow
Fascinating episode gents! I do recall seeing a Frampton rig rundown and he supposedly runs a fender blackface bassman into the front of his marshall. Pretty interesting.
Did you mention that in the Lonestar you have the ability to remove the Output (Master amp volume) and run both channels like that? That would fix the problem Mick was talking about with the Output knob throttling the sound of the channel. Of course with that you loose the effects loop, so maybe that's why it wasn't mentioned. But it would have been a good opportunity to A/B that with the Mesa run through the Marshall power section and back through the Mesa speakers.
Yah, effects loop out of the equation at the point so no mix n match possible!
I think we did hear that combination btw…
The Les Paul on the stool....Mick you are killing me visions of smashed Les Paul. Rock on, boys.
Great idea for a video,, guys.. I wish this test was done with amps having the same output power. I would think the preamp gain structure would be different for 50W output power v 100W output power and I would've preferred this particular difference to be left out of this comparison. Also, how many people are familiar with Mesa C90s? Wouldn't WGS 12L have been a American speaker choice as far as audience familiarity goes?
This was a great mash up! It’s interesting to tear it apart. I think it’s interesting from a design perspective, and ultimately from a purchasing perspective. The reputation of different Tone components to affect the sound, may not matter as much as other factors? How it all comes together is more important.
Too much of rabbit hole to open up for me! 😊
Folllowing u boys, and the curiosity of find my real sound start, I don’t have a lot of pedals, but is good start! HB Mick! Greetings from Caribbean Islands!
I can easily see this episode leading to a TPS signature amp! They just need to take a trip to see the Two Rock team to mix and match there!
The Mesa sounds great using EL34s in its power section... and 6v6. Versatile amp
Hard to believe that Jim Lill's "Where does tone come from in an amp" or "...in a speaker cab" videos haven't been mentioned in the comments yet. Pretty compelling method and presentation. Unless one isolates variables, the comparisons remain suspect.
Speaker > Pre > Power is my guess. No doubt the speaker makes the most difference, interesting to see if the pre or power section matters more though
What did you think after watching it?
@@n_phaneuf I've been spending like Croecus to get the magic speakers, but I am wondering if maybe it is more Power section. 🤔
gentlemen, this was very enlighting. never seen this before on yt. far out.
In order of importance, speaker, preamp, then power amp. Without the speaker, it’s just fizz. Try turning off the IR in your plugin. Preamp shapes the sound. Power amp just makes it louder.
Happy friday guys, that Mesa tone with the LP is beautiful!
Great video! 8+ configuration swaps seemed like a lot of work (on top of setting levels, editing video/audio, tuning guitars, etc.)
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