Gothmog survived the battle and the fall of Sauron. Somehow survived for thousand of years. And became a movie producer. Keeping his distinctive looks the whole time.
@@Jeremycook_ Weinstein truly, given what that wretch wanted for the films. Gothmog chasing Eowyn takes a lot darker tone given what old man Weinstein got up to.
Thing is that he was actually in good company as far as disfigurement goes.. most of the orcs had something or other going on lol - maybe less of an outlier than you might have first thought. Edit:
I just started the audiobook for Return of the King last night and it's been 20 years since I read the books, so my memories of the Battle of Pelennor Fields are dim. But I like the idea that Gothmog is actually an orc. First simply because the orcs we meet tend to have two-syllable names, while the Gondorians and Numenoreans seem to have three or four syllable names. I'm guessing the same would be true for the Black Numenoreans and their descendants. So Gothmog "sounds" orcish to me. And second, the end of the Two Towers book gives us Shagrat and Gorbag complaining about working under Sauron and the Nazgul like two coworkers venting about upper management around the water cooler at work. It's nice* to think there are orcs out there who've climbed the ranks and gotten a position of power for themselves. *For certain values of "nice." ETA: Well, CyBromancer7562 has a very thorough comment in which he points out that Gothmog is actually an Elvish name and therefore our enigmatic lieutenant is actually more likely to be a Black Numenorean. Sorry orcs! It looks like job mobility is NOT on the menu!
Gothmog might be the most successful character in LOTR in terms of getting across who he is and what he’s about with such limited screentime. For a society as ruthless, barbaric and driven by violence as the orcs of Mordor, it is immediately striking that their commander is a diseased, sickly looking orc who can barely walk and only uses one arm. You would think that if someone wanted to be in charge, they could just challenge him physically and be done with it, but none of those who would be capable do so. I don’t think they particularly like him as a general but certainly they respect and fear him because they know that when he’s giving orders, they win. He understands the value of stealth, travelling by night and why long planning makes surprise attacks effective, which you would think would be concepts lost on the brutes who normally infest Sauron’s pits. This guy knew he was never going to win a contest of strength but he made himself useful to the Nazgul as someone who understands the importance of strategy to winning battles, not just mindlessly charging at the enemy. Hell, this is an orc who even seeing a mass of stone coming towards him stands his ground until the very last second. That tells you a lot about this character, and you don’t even need to know anything about him. It’s one of those things that they didn’t really need to focus on but these tidbits of characterisation are enough for us to be drawn into what are basically nameless bad guys and make names like Lurtz, Sharku and Gothmog household names in the LOTR community.
I believe the idea behind Mr. Potatohead was that Saruman's recipe for cooking orcs was ultimately flawed, causing his orcs to develop this kind of disfigurements. He was one of the few who survived the longest, so he was most disfigured as well.
You make him sound like a leader of that other super power from the east, united under the threat of violent oppression - the soviet union. I know the crippled aspect only came with the movie adaptation, but it would fit with Tolkien's time of writing during the cold war.
I think you are correct concerning Gothmog's Black Numenorean origins. He may have been given his name by Sauron as he had 'forgotten' his own name just as the Lieutenant of Barad-Dur. I don't know how effective the other Nazgul would be at leading armies. Their lack of independent thought would make them ineffective commanders on a fluid battlefield where quick decisions are necessary for victory. As for Boldogs, I use them to explain the difference in orcs who live for centuries and the orcs they breed who have more human lifespans. Azog and the Great Goblin are the two named orcs I would offer as candidates for Boldogs in the Third Age Legendarium.
I like to think he was a Black Numerorean or a renegade of Gondor. It might be a stretch that he was Eanur (the last king of Gondor before Aragorn) or his escort, who challenged the Witch-king to a duel at Minas Morgul but was never seen again. Whether Eanur died or not is not known, but heavily implied, so don't I think he was turned to the side of evil and became Gothmog, as sick as it would be. He would have to be a wraith of some sort to live that long, but if this was all the case, I feel we would know more about it. Anyways the reason I say this is because a lot of the Black Numenoreans seen in the lore (Beruthiel, Herumor, and Fuinur) were given elvish names with dark and sinister meanings. Gothmog is an elvish name meaning "strife and hatred" Even the Mouth of Sauron was at one point given the name Mordu meaning "Black Night". In early drafts Mordu was a living man born into a house of noble Gondorians. He was either captured by Sauron in his youth or became a renegade who desired evil knowledge, entering the service of the dark tower as a prized messenger. Another thing about the Mouth of Sauron was he originally was going to be the Lieutenant of Morgul, not the Lieutenant of Barad-dur, further increasing the likelihood the lieutenant of Morgul (such as Gothmog) was a Black Numenorean. Gothhmog is probably not an orc as they are not given elvish names in the LOTR but well, Orkish names. Ugluk, Shagrat, Gorbag, Bolg, and Azog, all Orkish. Yet there's more! At the front of the mainly orcish host of Morgul sent to besiege Minas Tirith, was a great cavalry of horsemen of the enemy moving like ordered shadows, who were led personally by the greatest rider, robed in black with a flickering crown, the Witch-king himself. A large dark force of mannish riders? Orcs usually ride Wargs, their is no way they are all Nazgul, and while Haradrim had cavalry too, they were described as wearing red not black, and I think they joined the Morgul-host later. Black Numeneoreans would be my best bet, and if they are being led by the Witch-king, who better than to aid him at his side then a Black Numenorean called Gothmog!
Gothmog was actually a descendent of a Cave Troll that bred with a captured Dol Amroth princess, that later mixed with a Dwarf and Easterling. It is later explained , that Gothmog had such a terrible identity crisis in his tweens, that Sauron recruited him with little effort.
That is an intriguing and creative backstory for Gothmog, but it is not part of the established lore in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium. Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Morgul, who appears in "The Return of the King," is a mysterious figure with little known about his origins. Tolkien does not provide any specific background for him in his writings.
In the book version, i thought that he could be one of the black numenoreans, or maybe the king Earnur, after the witch king trapped him in Minas Morgul and maybe transformed him into a wraith.
Back in the days of the first readings, before all this movie stuff, we all just knew that this Gothmog was the #2 nazgul, previously a king of men, and Tolkien was amusing himself by using a name from his earlier histories just to give it some air in a book that was definitely getting published. He also named the gate-smashing ram "Grond" for his own easter egg pleasure. He did a fair amount of that overall in his writings (especially with names), to the point that he once bemoaned that he had probably overdone it and made his own writing feel less original to himself. Militarily, the fact that Gothmog started throwing the rest of his allied men-forces into the thick of the battle wasn't because he was one of them. It was because he was running out of orc shock-troops and it was time to bring in some heavy reinforcements. Also, consider, if those men of distant lands saw the gand army of Morgul Vale get shredded, they might desert the war altogether, or even potentially change sides. It was better for hiim to get them killed than to have to retreat with them having witnessed a failure. From Sauron's point of view, any of the nazgul would be more powerful and more loyal than any other servant he could find, and the nazgul answered only to Sauron, not to any two-bit henchman or mortal ('cause rings of power!). With the witch-king gone, Sauron still had 8 to go through, and their names would have come up one by one if they hadnt all been wisped by the destruction of the 1 Ring. Finally, Tolkien was not under any compulsion to make a big wikipedia page for Gothmog, because he was publishing an adventure story about hobbits & friends, not writing up Encyclopedia Middle-earthica just for later pundits to compile huge catalogues after the fact. Tolkien knew we didn't need to know squat else about Gothmog, because he already knew was going to have Gollum splash down into lava with the 1 Ring in a few days anyway. The internet-age obsession with fraktons of backstory trivia overload simply did not exist up to Tolkien's times. If anything, Tolkien INVENTED the idea of backstory trivia, so you got what you got from him while he was around to give some out. No one else did that before. In fact, to this day, nobody knows who Hamlet's grandparents were, and nobody needs to care.
"Stay where you are." Like many of the evil figures in Tolkiens work this one is wrapped in mystery. It was easy to make him an orc but if he was human once then I'm gona want to know his origin story. Maybe a soldier of Khand? I personally would like to have him as a giant troll, would have made the take down that much more awesome 😁
Peter Jackson: Idk, make the leader crippled or something, it’s not like it matters or anyone is gonna remember random orcs, do whatever. The entire LOTR community 20 years later: But *HOW* did Gothmog become so important among all the other orcs to be the field commander of the Osgiliath and Minas Tirith campaigns? Clearly there’s a very interesting and storied backstory we have yet to uncover!
I believe that he was meant to look like Harvey Weinstein, which is sad to diminish the appearance of a character because of a personal vendetta, even if it was to towards a very unlikable individual
@@theonetylerwilson There was a Harvey Weinstein background mask sculpted (and a Bob too), but Gothmog was not based on him. I designed, sculpted and applied the Gothmog makeup.
I'm more inclined to think Gothmog is a person and actually hero worships the Balrog he was named after. Orc feels less likely since they don't tend to have Sindarin names.
First off, another excellent video! I really enjoyed the twist LotRO pulled with Earnur/Mordirith being Gothmog, even if its very unlikely to be the true identity. It would be totally within the cruel malice and irony of Sauron to turn the King of Gondor into one of the chief architects of its downfall. In my personal opinion, I believe that Gothmog was mostly likely a Black Numenorean with a ranking similar to that of the Mouth of Sauron, maybe even being one of the leaders to bring Harad and Umbar under Sauron's banner during the latter third age. A man that would be feared by the Black Sepent, but could be afforded to be left to his own devices, should his betters (the Witch-King, namely) were to be indisposed by the bidding of Sauron [As I do not believe Sauron, and definitely not the lesser creatures, would have ever dreamed that the Witch-King would be slain. Maybe driven back by the White Wizard, but not slain in battle.]
The thing with Gothmog is that Peter Jackson's interpretation completely obscures my book view. I cannot see another face in my mind, no matter how hard I try. The Harvey Weinstein rumour doesn't help matters either. He's always going to look like an orc with a bad case of leprosy. 😊❤😊
Yeah, despite how terrific Jackson's trilogy is I'm somewhat remorseful of all the scenery and characters it has overwritten in my imagination. I just barely managed to read the books first time (at the tender age of eleven) before the first movie came out. Some of my "own" images I have managed to retain, but a large part is beyond reach for good, I'm afraid.
There was a Harvey Weinstein background mask sculpted (and a Bob too), but Gothmog was not based on him. I designed, sculpted and applied the Gothmog makeup. His deformed appearance was meant to be a mix of Proteus syndrome and leprosy.
@dawnofthehunt Thank you for clarification. I'd never heard of Proteus Syndrome before and had to ask Alexa. My guess at an orc with a bad case of leprosy was a good stab in the dark, it seems. I'm kind of glad that the Weinstein rumour is just rumour. Having him linked to the trilogy in any manner is disappointing. Even in mockery. 😊❤️❤️❤️😊
I’m pretty sure Gothmog was one of the Nazgûl in this very old war game (physical, not online) I used to have. This was decades ago. So I have always thought of him as a Nazgûl.
Is that the one where you had both individual party members and combat and a strategic layer with armies (battles at that level being simulated statistically)?
Lord of the Rings Online has an incredibly interesting take on Gothmog. When King Earnur rode to challenge the Witch King at Minas Morgul and was never heard from again, he was captured and turn into Mordirith, the Steward of Angmar. After his defeat in Carn Dum, he flees back to Minas Morgul and is given a another stronger body, and is renamed Gothmog.
Love these lore stories. You have such an easy voice meaning you explain things so easy. It sucks being abit think 😞 I struggle reading and I so badly wanna read the booksb
I think the Black Númenorean theory best fits the available information, just as it is with the Mouth of Sauron. However, the Boldog theory is intriguing. And as interesting as the theory that he's a Ringwraith is, I agree that seems quite unlikely.
One of the few things I thought LOTRs movies didn’t do a good job on is representing just how much of Sauron’s forces were men. Made up a massive percentage in books and in the movies we seldom see them doing anything of importance
Whereas you make a compelling argument as to why Gothmog was likely not an Orc, the bravado of Gothmog in the PJ movie was perfect for second in command: complete faith in their destiny to win, unflappable stance on the battlefield, and his seasoned approach to directing a massive battlefield.
In Tolkien's sketches of orcs, there is information that the souls of those who stand out among them and are generally commanders may be fallen Maiar (Úmaiar). Gothmog may be one of them.
I owned a Middle-Earth wargame in which Gothmog was portrayed as a nazgul, back in the 70s-80s. As far as independent thought...each nazgul had once been a king and in that era were likely very competent warriors and strategists, and also had to operate independently, far into enemy territory (like roaming all over Eriador). Any leader of Sauron's armies was going to necessarily need to be loyal to Sauron, and who was more loyal than a nazgul? In the wargame, Gothmog was second only to the Witch-King, though I'd think Khamul was likely second, with Gothmog third in skill and thus placed as an adjutant and secondary to the Witch-King at Minas Morgul. I always pictured Khamul as running things at Dol Guldur once Sauron moved back to Barad-dur.
I find orcs very interesting. I find them interesting because they can be bread for war and multiply quickly and you really don’t know how old they are. For all we know Gothmog could’ve been one of the high priests or adviser to the king of Numenor and befriended Sauron while he was there and Sauron probably aided him with long life but decided not to turn him into a Ring Wraith but a creature to lead his army with his wraiths. When I look at Gothmog from the movie I see someone who looks distinctly different from the other orcs and he is handicapped from his injured or shortened arm. You can see he’s handicapped and the only thing I can think of is that he’s been involved in a lot of other wars with the Witch King in the past. Why would Angmar make him his second in command ??? Unless he served him well in the past. Sometimes, if a leader or elder of a group of creatures is respected because he’s been involved in a lot of wars and knows strategically how to conquered. That is the only reason I can think of why the other orcs respect him and don’t just kill him out right.
An incredibly minor character elevated beyond his worth as a character. He didn't even have more than just a a name in passing in the books. Meanwhile my boy Faramir got done dirty.
I do love the idea that there was another of the Nazgûl, like Khamûl, who has elevated authority and power compared to the others, and that he would be on the battlefield assisting the Witch King in leading the army. But I agree that probably it was an evil man, like the Mouth of Sauron (himself the Lieutenant of Barad-dûr). Perhaps Black Númenóreans of great power and influence were granted these positions as the "lieutenant" of important strongholds.
I used Gothmog when I felled the Armour in The Mines of Moria. I summoned the enemy to determine how to get out. Gothmog said, 'To the Bridge of Khazadum.'
I agree that Gothmog is a Man. All of the forces he is mentioned to command - Easterlings, Variags, Near and Far Haradrim - are Men, so I wonder if he is meant to be thought of as the commander of all of Sauron's Men collectively, with each individual culture and company having its own sub-commanders and the Orcs being a separate force. It's interesting how the film trilogy emphasizes Sauron's Orcs while greatly scaling back the role of the Men who served him - only the Haradrim and Corsairs of Umbar have any significant role, with the Easterlings being barely shown during the Siege of Gondor. In the ROTK film, the forces at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields consist entirely of Orcs and Haradrim. Since most of Sauron's army consists of Orcs, I suppose it's appropriate that Gothmog was made an Orc.
That was down to getting it to PG-13. It’s ok to massacre Orcs, but not humans. That’s why the human’s we see often have covered faces or makeup to get around the film censors.
@@ringbearer1420 I think another factor may be the racial insensitivities surrounding the depiction of Sauron's Men in Middle-Earth. In the books, they're explicitly referred to as "Swarthy Men," and if you look closely, you can see that they've been depicted faithfully as such in the films. I think that the Haradrim and Easterlings are so covered up so that it's harder to notice that, hey, darker-skinned Men are serving evil and fighting against the good, white Men of the West. Unfortunately, their covering robes and turbans simply reinforce the notion that they are a Middle-Eastern-inspired culture, which was probably intentional as well.
Man, *thinks about it while watching* I didn't think of that...that would be interesting and cooler than what PJ did!!! Thanks for this Speculation ECH on Gothmog, it was really interesting to theorize what he is, Until would Ungoliant be able to eat the Silmarils...Marion Baggins Out!!!!
I think Gothmog as a Orc Chieftain or even Warlord would make sense if he was an Orc. He would have a lot of experience leading his fellow Orcs into battle and would probably have been in the forefront of their training to turn them from an undisciplined Zerg Rush force to a highly regimented and disciplined military force.
Tolkien just gives us a name - the name has an orc flavor to it, so he was likely either a normal orc or possibly a half-orc who had enough brawn to go with his brains and thus reach the level of rank and power that he did. While Jackson did create a unique character for him, the problem with his depiction is that survival of the fittest would have resulted in something as crippled as that character being slain at birth in Mordor and if it was allowed to try to survive for some reason, it would have ended up starving or being killed by the other orcs eventually, with no hope of it ever making the orc equivalent of PFC, much less becoming the Lich King's second in command - heck, it probably wouldn't have even survived to adulthood.
Named after the lord of balrogs. See a lot of namesakes that could be confusing in Tolkien’s work. Tol Sirion was the first Minas Trith. Gorgoreth near Nandungortheb in beleriand and plateau of gorgoreth in Mordor of course. We also have Grond the hammer of the underworld and the battering ram from the return of the king. Anyone have any?
Let's not underestimate the potential of individual Orcs to rise to high-ranking positions in Sauron's realm. While they may be generally considered less intelligent than men, this doesn't mean there aren't exceptionally smart ones among them. The Great Goblin, for instance, was a prime example of this, with his sharp wit and practicality. The trolls in Trollshaws, despite their ultimate defeat, also demonstrated a certain level of intelligence in their individual ambushes on dwarves.
I personally never liked the idea that Gothmog was an orc, since from what we've seen, orcs just don't have the cooperation or intelligence to be efficient commanders even of their own kind, let alone of a huge army composed of disperate forces (look at how Shagrat and Gorbag fall out). When I read up on the Variags of Kand, I learned that their name was based on the Varangian, who were Slavic mercenaries who fought in the bizantine empire, this gave me a thought about Gothmog. In terms of allegiance, Sauron's army therefore seems to be made up of three different groups. Orcs, trolls, Nazgul and those creatures directly under Sauron's control. Haradrim, easterlings and corsairs of Umbar, those who paid Sauron tribute and likely considered him their overlord, though were not directly controlled by him, and groups like the Variags of Kand, who were mercenaries who fought for coin. If the Witch king commanded Sauron's forces directly, and the black serpent, or some other general commanded the Haradrim, it's reasonable to assume the mercenaries had their own commander, presumably Gothmog. Being a mercenary, we can infer that he was an experienced war leader, probably more experienced than the Haradrim general (who probably only had to deal with slave revaults). Also, the fact that he's called "the lieutenant of morgul", and names himself after an ancient demon suggests just what Sauron is offering him in return, something similar to what Sauron offered the mouth of Sauronn, powerful magic and likely extended life even without another ring of power. Indeed, it's possible that Gothmog was even promised one of the three remaining dwarven rings after the battle, thus effectively making him into a being similar to Gothmog of old, an immortal spirit of evil. Again, we don't know for sure, it's more likely Tolkien just liked the name, and like Grond stuck it in as a memorial to the older legendarium, but I do like the idea that he was the head Variag or some other mercenary war leader. And after all who would be scarier commanding the variags of kand and the hole dark army once the witchking fell, than the kandyman!
After the movie, I thought he was the physical body of Sauron, the missing fingers (I used to think he was missing an eye as well) and the mangled appearance but I quickly debunked that. I kind of like the idea of that though
I vote that he is a nazgul. He is second in command at Minas morgul. That means that whenever the witch king is absent, Gothmog takes command of the city of ringwraiths....
I think the LOTRO explanation is the most plausible. Why would Earnur just simply be killed, along with his retinue of knights, when Sauron could do something truly evil and turn them into wraiths in service against Gondor. It seems Tolkien always turned to what would be the most evil thing they could do for his evil characters.
I think I'd prefer him to be something other then a bog-standard orc. It'd be interesting if he retained a visage his elvish heritage, maybe through the magic he had acquired and tried to look like them again in his own twisted way. I'm imagining someone like Prince Nuada from Hellboy 2.
I honestly think of Gothmog in Lord of the Rings as an orc, an exceptional orc but an orc nonetheless. However, I think that "Gothmog" might be something like a title, something a follower of Sauron would be called upon achieving a certain rank or station. There's a lot of diminishing from one age to another, and I think Gothmog ties into this. To go from Gothmog, chief of the Balrogs in the first age to Gothmog, some lowly orc or evil man in the third age, could tie into the general diminishing of middle earth.
I like the idea of Gothmog as a title rather than a single entity, like Warmaster. Very fitting mirror for Sauron, and the whole idea of evil can change its face, but not its nature.
I think the idea of a fallen, lesser Maiar fits the bill. And who can say what form a Maiar would take? Lol, I don't know. To me, it seems entirely possible that Morgoth would have seduced, and corrupted other Maiar for different purposes apart from the Balrogs, and Sauron, as his lieutenant and successor. I mean, Gothmog is directly named after the King of Balrogs, so some insinuation of Maiar is already there.
Since he's smart, possibly long-lived and has a thing for the first age, I always reckoned he might be a corrupted elf turned to evil. Just a random thought.
Goth mog truly was a revolutionary. Raising the oppressed proletariat against the bourgeoisie colonial races of men, elves and dwarves. A orc who went against the grain and stepped out of his allotted class. Truly he will be remembered amongst the likes of che, Marx, Lenin and Kim il sun. Rest in peace sweet prince
He was either a black numenorean or a wraith... But I'm leaning towards him being one of the nine since he served as the witch king's second in command. I don't think a mere orc or man no matter how fell they were could unite a vast host like that just by mere power of persuasion or force of personality.
I just assumed any leader were the first created...I always had it in my mind that he any other leader were created with just a dash more attention from Saurmon for the purpose of leadership🤷♂️
In LotR Tolkien says *twice* that it was NOT an orc-chieftain who led the assault upon Gondor. It would be quite strange if he would follow that with an orc-chieftain taking the charge of the assault 10 pages later. That's just not how you write books!
Trying to remember Gothmog, but Mrs Maggot had much more appeal. The beer and mushrooms go a long way. But seriously. Weren't orcs, Gothmog, sick breeds of elves?
That's exactly how I took it, even in the books. Gothmog was probably bred with a special fell type of sorcery, which made him a little more cunning than the rest. It's as if he was bred to be a field general
Actually, his name is Porky Orcy. We named him that when the movie came out in the theater... As far as we're concerned he will always be Porky Orcy! 😂
I never liked his depiction in the Peter Jackson movies. I couldn't believe that an orc that is so disabled can be brought to the forefront of an army that promotes strength and deadlines. He couldn't even run. I only recently learned his name as I have never heard his name spoken in the movie. But I did hear (not sure if from this channel) that he was a joke character put in as there was someone at the production company they didn't like as they tried to intrude on Jackson and Co's vision so they gave that guy a cameo and made him how they see him as gothmog. So makes sense just as farkwad from shrek was used to make a jab at someone, but wished they had done him more justice and a more likely version for gothmog.
One of the many things i really don't like about the Jackson Movies is the Battle of the pellenor Fields. It was stated in the books that not mere orc chieftrain was leading the armys of mordor but the Witchking himself and what did we see in the movies? An Orc leading mordors army. I completly agree with the video, it makes no sense for gothmog to be an Orc i allways immagined him to be an black numorean.
Gothmog survived the battle and the fall of Sauron. Somehow survived for thousand of years. And became a movie producer. Keeping his distinctive looks the whole time.
Harvey Weinstein or Ryan Kavanaugh? They look a lot alike
@@Jeremycook_ Weinstein truly, given what that wretch wanted for the films. Gothmog chasing Eowyn takes a lot darker tone given what old man Weinstein got up to.
@lipingrahman6648 lmao
Weinstein never looked so good as he did in his role as Gothmog.
Gothmog is a true hero! He shows us that despite one’s disfigurement/disability you can rise high in the world if just given a chance!
Yes, but he's white so he's privileged.
Same with Azog. Bunch of white supremacists, the lot of them.
Thing is that he was actually in good company as far as disfigurement goes.. most of the orcs had something or other going on lol - maybe less of an outlier than you might have first thought.
Edit:
Answer: Harvey Weinstein
As sauron would no doubt say, if you're cruel enough promotion is possible in the dark lord's army.
I just started the audiobook for Return of the King last night and it's been 20 years since I read the books, so my memories of the Battle of Pelennor Fields are dim. But I like the idea that Gothmog is actually an orc. First simply because the orcs we meet tend to have two-syllable names, while the Gondorians and Numenoreans seem to have three or four syllable names. I'm guessing the same would be true for the Black Numenoreans and their descendants. So Gothmog "sounds" orcish to me.
And second, the end of the Two Towers book gives us Shagrat and Gorbag complaining about working under Sauron and the Nazgul like two coworkers venting about upper management around the water cooler at work. It's nice* to think there are orcs out there who've climbed the ranks and gotten a position of power for themselves.
*For certain values of "nice."
ETA: Well, CyBromancer7562 has a very thorough comment in which he points out that Gothmog is actually an Elvish name and therefore our enigmatic lieutenant is actually more likely to be a Black Numenorean. Sorry orcs! It looks like job mobility is NOT on the menu!
Quality comment.
Gothmog might be the most successful character in LOTR in terms of getting across who he is and what he’s about with such limited screentime.
For a society as ruthless, barbaric and driven by violence as the orcs of Mordor, it is immediately striking that their commander is a diseased, sickly looking orc who can barely walk and only uses one arm. You would think that if someone wanted to be in charge, they could just challenge him physically and be done with it, but none of those who would be capable do so. I don’t think they particularly like him as a general but certainly they respect and fear him because they know that when he’s giving orders, they win. He understands the value of stealth, travelling by night and why long planning makes surprise attacks effective, which you would think would be concepts lost on the brutes who normally infest Sauron’s pits. This guy knew he was never going to win a contest of strength but he made himself useful to the Nazgul as someone who understands the importance of strategy to winning battles, not just mindlessly charging at the enemy.
Hell, this is an orc who even seeing a mass of stone coming towards him stands his ground until the very last second.
That tells you a lot about this character, and you don’t even need to know anything about him.
It’s one of those things that they didn’t really need to focus on but these tidbits of characterisation are enough for us to be drawn into what are basically nameless bad guys and make names like Lurtz, Sharku and Gothmog household names in the LOTR community.
I believe the idea behind Mr. Potatohead was that Saruman's recipe for cooking orcs was ultimately flawed, causing his orcs to develop this kind of disfigurements. He was one of the few who survived the longest, so he was most disfigured as well.
@@meduseldtales3383 But Gothmog is a Mordor orc, he’s not from Isengard - who by all accounts are strong and healthy.
You make him sound like a leader of that other super power from the east, united under the threat of violent oppression - the soviet union. I know the crippled aspect only came with the movie adaptation, but it would fit with Tolkien's time of writing during the cold war.
I think you are correct concerning Gothmog's Black Numenorean origins. He may have been given his name by Sauron as he had 'forgotten' his own name just as the Lieutenant of Barad-Dur. I don't know how effective the other Nazgul would be at leading armies. Their lack of independent thought would make them ineffective commanders on a fluid battlefield where quick decisions are necessary for victory. As for Boldogs, I use them to explain the difference in orcs who live for centuries and the orcs they breed who have more human lifespans. Azog and the Great Goblin are the two named orcs I would offer as candidates for Boldogs in the Third Age Legendarium.
I like to think he was a Black Numerorean or a renegade of Gondor. It might be a stretch that he was Eanur (the last king of Gondor before Aragorn) or his escort, who challenged the Witch-king to a duel at Minas Morgul but was never seen again. Whether Eanur died or not is not known, but heavily implied, so don't I think he was turned to the side of evil and became Gothmog, as sick as it would be. He would have to be a wraith of some sort to live that long, but if this was all the case, I feel we would know more about it.
Anyways the reason I say this is because a lot of the Black Numenoreans seen in the lore (Beruthiel, Herumor, and Fuinur) were given elvish names with dark and sinister meanings. Gothmog is an elvish name meaning "strife and hatred"
Even the Mouth of Sauron was at one point given the name Mordu meaning "Black Night". In early drafts Mordu was a living man born into a house of noble Gondorians. He was either captured by Sauron in his youth or became a renegade who desired evil knowledge, entering the service of the dark tower as a prized messenger. Another thing about the Mouth of Sauron was he originally was going to be the Lieutenant of Morgul, not the Lieutenant of Barad-dur, further increasing the likelihood the lieutenant of Morgul (such as Gothmog) was a Black Numenorean.
Gothhmog is probably not an orc as they are not given elvish names in the LOTR but well, Orkish names. Ugluk, Shagrat, Gorbag, Bolg, and Azog, all Orkish.
Yet there's more! At the front of the mainly orcish host of Morgul sent to besiege Minas Tirith, was a great cavalry of horsemen of the enemy moving like ordered shadows, who were led personally by the greatest rider, robed in black with a flickering crown, the Witch-king himself. A large dark force of mannish riders? Orcs usually ride Wargs, their is no way they are all Nazgul, and while Haradrim had cavalry too, they were described as wearing red not black, and I think they joined the Morgul-host later. Black Numeneoreans would be my best bet, and if they are being led by the Witch-king, who better than to aid him at his side then a Black Numenorean called Gothmog!
You have an impressive grasp of the lore! I had no idea that Gothmog was actually an Elvish name.
@@katherinegraham3803I agree lol. I would've assumed Gothmog was an Orcish name just based on how it sounds compared to others.
He has elf ears
@@CryptidRenfri Gothmog was a Balrog too and the word Balrog is Sindarin.
'The Age of Men is over...the time of the Orc has come!'
Epic quote but I imagine some of Mordor's allies would take issue with it.
Easterlings & Haradrim: Uh...what about us?
@@jeffreygao3956 Man filth has no say! >:O
-The age of men is what? Over.
short lived.
@@jeffreygao3956
Gothmog: “Oh ah I mean like, metaphorically…You guys are the good men”
Let’s go epic character history vid awesome vid yoystan
I really got to despise him in the movie when he forbade his soldiers to get away from the rocks from Minas Tirith, and then stepped aside himself.
That's an Orc commander for you. Don't hate him personally.
He was telling them not to run away from the battle.
😂😂😂
"Fear... the city is rank with it. Let us ease their pain. Release the prisoners."
I thought the portrayal in the movie was delightfully despicable.
Gothmog was actually a descendent of a Cave Troll that bred with a captured Dol Amroth princess, that later mixed with a Dwarf and Easterling. It is later explained , that Gothmog had such a terrible identity crisis in his tweens, that Sauron recruited him with little effort.
That is an intriguing and creative backstory for Gothmog, but it is not part of the established lore in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium. Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Morgul, who appears in "The Return of the King," is a mysterious figure with little known about his origins. Tolkien does not provide any specific background for him in his writings.
In the book version, i thought that he could be one of the black numenoreans, or maybe the king Earnur, after the witch king trapped him in Minas Morgul and maybe transformed him into a wraith.
Back in the days of the first readings, before all this movie stuff, we all just knew that this Gothmog was the
#2 nazgul, previously a king of men, and Tolkien was amusing himself by using a name from his earlier histories just to give it some air in a book that was definitely getting published. He also named the gate-smashing ram "Grond" for his own easter egg pleasure. He did a fair amount of that overall in his writings (especially with names), to the point that he once bemoaned that he had probably overdone it and made his own writing feel less original to himself.
Militarily, the fact that Gothmog started throwing the rest of his allied men-forces into the thick of the battle wasn't because he was one of them. It was because he was running out of orc shock-troops and it was time to bring in some heavy reinforcements. Also, consider, if those men of distant lands saw the gand army of Morgul Vale get shredded, they might desert the war altogether, or even potentially change sides. It was better for hiim to get them killed than to have to retreat with them having witnessed a failure.
From Sauron's point of view, any of the nazgul would be more powerful and more loyal than any other servant he could find, and the nazgul answered only to Sauron, not to any two-bit henchman or mortal ('cause rings of power!). With the witch-king gone, Sauron still had 8 to go through, and their names would have come up one by one if they hadnt all been wisped by the destruction of the 1 Ring.
Finally, Tolkien was not under any compulsion to make a big wikipedia page for Gothmog, because he was publishing an adventure story about hobbits & friends, not writing up Encyclopedia Middle-earthica just for later pundits to compile huge catalogues after the fact. Tolkien knew we didn't need to know squat else about Gothmog, because he already knew was going to have Gollum splash down into lava with the 1 Ring in a few days anyway. The internet-age obsession with fraktons of backstory trivia overload simply did not exist up to Tolkien's times.
If anything, Tolkien INVENTED the idea of backstory trivia, so you got what you got from him while he was around to give some out. No one else did that before. In fact, to this day, nobody knows who Hamlet's grandparents were, and nobody needs to care.
Well thought out and said!
I’m thinking Nazgûl here, thanks for your great work!
"Stay where you are."
Like many of the evil figures in Tolkiens work this one is wrapped in mystery. It was easy to make him an orc but if he was human once then I'm gona want to know his origin story. Maybe a soldier of Khand? I personally would like to have him as a giant troll, would have made the take down that much more awesome 😁
Trolls dont have the intelligence to lead a vast army, so um no it wasnt a Troll , i can assure you.
Peter Jackson: Idk, make the leader crippled or something, it’s not like it matters or anyone is gonna remember random orcs, do whatever.
The entire LOTR community 20 years later: But *HOW* did Gothmog become so important among all the other orcs to be the field commander of the Osgiliath and Minas Tirith campaigns? Clearly there’s a very interesting and storied backstory we have yet to uncover!
Oh now apparently he's actually modeled facially on Harvey Winestein who Peter Jackson really disliked.
I believe that he was meant to look like Harvey Weinstein, which is sad to diminish the appearance of a character because of a personal vendetta, even if it was to towards a very unlikable individual
@@theonetylerwilson There was a Harvey Weinstein background mask sculpted (and a Bob too), but Gothmog was not based on him. I designed, sculpted and applied the Gothmog makeup.
Amazing video Yoystan! I loved your LOTRO comment. that is cool how they did that! Now I want to play LOTRO together again! :D BARUK KHAZAD!
I'm more inclined to think Gothmog is a person and actually hero worships the Balrog he was named after. Orc feels less likely since they don't tend to have Sindarin names.
First off, another excellent video!
I really enjoyed the twist LotRO pulled with Earnur/Mordirith being Gothmog, even if its very unlikely to be the true identity. It would be totally within the cruel malice and irony of Sauron to turn the King of Gondor into one of the chief architects of its downfall.
In my personal opinion, I believe that Gothmog was mostly likely a Black Numenorean with a ranking similar to that of the Mouth of Sauron, maybe even being one of the leaders to bring Harad and Umbar under Sauron's banner during the latter third age. A man that would be feared by the Black Sepent, but could be afforded to be left to his own devices, should his betters (the Witch-King, namely) were to be indisposed by the bidding of Sauron [As I do not believe Sauron, and definitely not the lesser creatures, would have ever dreamed that the Witch-King would be slain. Maybe driven back by the White Wizard, but not slain in battle.]
Excellent illustrations .
The thing with Gothmog is that Peter Jackson's interpretation completely obscures my book view. I cannot see another face in my mind, no matter how hard I try.
The Harvey Weinstein rumour doesn't help matters either. He's always going to look like an orc with a bad case of leprosy. 😊❤😊
Yeah, despite how terrific Jackson's trilogy is I'm somewhat remorseful of all the scenery and characters it has overwritten in my imagination. I just barely managed to read the books first time (at the tender age of eleven) before the first movie came out. Some of my "own" images I have managed to retain, but a large part is beyond reach for good, I'm afraid.
There was a Harvey Weinstein background mask sculpted (and a Bob too), but Gothmog was not based on him. I designed, sculpted and applied the Gothmog makeup. His deformed appearance was meant to be a mix of Proteus syndrome and leprosy.
@dawnofthehunt Thank you for clarification. I'd never heard of Proteus Syndrome before and had to ask Alexa. My guess at an orc with a bad case of leprosy was a good stab in the dark, it seems.
I'm kind of glad that the Weinstein rumour is just rumour. Having him linked to the trilogy in any manner is disappointing. Even in mockery. 😊❤️❤️❤️😊
I’m pretty sure Gothmog was one of the Nazgûl in this very old war game (physical, not online) I used to have. This was decades ago. So I have always thought of him as a Nazgûl.
Is that the one where you had both individual party members and combat and a strategic layer with armies (battles at that level being simulated statistically)?
Interesting but then we'd have met Gothmog long ago because other Nazgul were introduced before, several times with all nine at once.
6:39 Had to pause to make sure that wasn't snus from the unauthorized Scanian localisation.
"The age of Men is over. The time of the Orc has come!"
-- Gothmog
Gothmog is awesome! Wish we knew more!!
Can you do a video of What if Sauron claimed the one ring, but also him claiming all the elven rings of power and what he could do with all that power
Lord of the Rings Online has an incredibly interesting take on Gothmog. When King Earnur rode to challenge the Witch King at Minas Morgul and was never heard from again, he was captured and turn into Mordirith, the Steward of Angmar. After his defeat in Carn Dum, he flees back to Minas Morgul and is given a another stronger body, and is renamed Gothmog.
Love these lore stories. You have such an easy voice meaning you explain things so easy. It sucks being abit think 😞 I struggle reading and I so badly wanna read the booksb
Audio books my friend!
I think the Black Númenorean theory best fits the available information, just as it is with the Mouth of Sauron. However, the Boldog theory is intriguing. And as interesting as the theory that he's a Ringwraith is, I agree that seems quite unlikely.
One of the few things I thought LOTRs movies didn’t do a good job on is representing just how much of Sauron’s forces were men. Made up a massive percentage in books and in the movies we seldom see them doing anything of importance
Very true, there are many exotic men on his side that are present at the siege and you just wonder who the hell they all are
The elvish mane coupled with the seemingly very strict examples of commanders commanding troops of their own races makes me agree with this idea.
Whereas you make a compelling argument as to why Gothmog was likely not an Orc, the bravado of Gothmog in the PJ movie was perfect for second in command: complete faith in their destiny to win, unflappable stance on the battlefield, and his seasoned approach to directing a massive battlefield.
Always cool bro ❤
In Tolkien's sketches of orcs, there is information that the souls of those who stand out among them and are generally commanders may be fallen Maiar (Úmaiar). Gothmog may be one of them.
4:56 I sense slight dismay in that "But we just don't get any of that lore."
It is crazy how at somepoint I felt Gothmog was Azog the defiler revived🤣.
I owned a Middle-Earth wargame in which Gothmog was portrayed as a nazgul, back in the 70s-80s. As far as independent thought...each nazgul had once been a king and in that era were likely very competent warriors and strategists, and also had to operate independently, far into enemy territory (like roaming all over Eriador). Any leader of Sauron's armies was going to necessarily need to be loyal to Sauron, and who was more loyal than a nazgul?
In the wargame, Gothmog was second only to the Witch-King, though I'd think Khamul was likely second, with Gothmog third in skill and thus placed as an adjutant and secondary to the Witch-King at Minas Morgul. I always pictured Khamul as running things at Dol Guldur once Sauron moved back to Barad-dur.
I find orcs very interesting. I find them interesting because they can be bread for war and multiply quickly and you really don’t know how old they are. For all we know Gothmog could’ve been one of the high priests or adviser to the king of Numenor and befriended Sauron while he was there and Sauron probably aided him with long life but decided not to turn him into a Ring Wraith but a creature to lead his army with his wraiths. When I look at Gothmog from the movie I see someone who looks distinctly different from the other orcs and he is handicapped from his injured or shortened arm. You can see he’s handicapped and the only thing I can think of is that he’s been involved in a lot of other wars with the Witch King in the past. Why would Angmar make him his second in command ??? Unless he served him well in the past. Sometimes, if a leader or elder of a group of creatures is respected because he’s been involved in a lot of wars and knows strategically how to conquered. That is the only reason I can think of why the other orcs respect him and don’t just kill him out right.
An incredibly minor character elevated beyond his worth as a character. He didn't even have more than just a a name in passing in the books. Meanwhile my boy Faramir got done dirty.
I do love the idea that there was another of the Nazgûl, like Khamûl, who has elevated authority and power compared to the others, and that he would be on the battlefield assisting the Witch King in leading the army.
But I agree that probably it was an evil man, like the Mouth of Sauron (himself the Lieutenant of Barad-dûr). Perhaps Black Númenóreans of great power and influence were granted these positions as the "lieutenant" of important strongholds.
I used Gothmog when I felled the Armour in The Mines of Moria. I summoned the enemy to determine how to get out. Gothmog said, 'To the Bridge of Khazadum.'
Also, the vocalist of Mortify, Thou Art Lord and Terra Tenebrae/Soulskinner.
I agree that Gothmog is a Man. All of the forces he is mentioned to command - Easterlings, Variags, Near and Far Haradrim - are Men, so I wonder if he is meant to be thought of as the commander of all of Sauron's Men collectively, with each individual culture and company having its own sub-commanders and the Orcs being a separate force. It's interesting how the film trilogy emphasizes Sauron's Orcs while greatly scaling back the role of the Men who served him - only the Haradrim and Corsairs of Umbar have any significant role, with the Easterlings being barely shown during the Siege of Gondor. In the ROTK film, the forces at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields consist entirely of Orcs and Haradrim. Since most of Sauron's army consists of Orcs, I suppose it's appropriate that Gothmog was made an Orc.
That was down to getting it to PG-13. It’s ok to massacre Orcs, but not humans. That’s why the human’s we see often have covered faces or makeup to get around the film censors.
@@ringbearer1420 I think another factor may be the racial insensitivities surrounding the depiction of Sauron's Men in Middle-Earth. In the books, they're explicitly referred to as "Swarthy Men," and if you look closely, you can see that they've been depicted faithfully as such in the films. I think that the Haradrim and Easterlings are so covered up so that it's harder to notice that, hey, darker-skinned Men are serving evil and fighting against the good, white Men of the West. Unfortunately, their covering robes and turbans simply reinforce the notion that they are a Middle-Eastern-inspired culture, which was probably intentional as well.
God tir video grate information great debate!!!
Man, *thinks about it while watching* I didn't think of that...that would be interesting and cooler than what PJ did!!!
Thanks for this Speculation ECH on Gothmog, it was really interesting to theorize what he is, Until would Ungoliant be able to eat the Silmarils...Marion Baggins Out!!!!
In the War of the Ring board game he is a Nazgul. The second in power and the only one named.
Congratulations for Gothmog, he has a lego minifigure now!
I think Gothmog as a Orc Chieftain or even Warlord would make sense if he was an Orc. He would have a lot of experience leading his fellow Orcs into battle and would probably have been in the forefront of their training to turn them from an undisciplined Zerg Rush force to a highly regimented and disciplined military force.
Tolkien just gives us a name - the name has an orc flavor to it, so he was likely either a normal orc or possibly a half-orc who had enough brawn to go with his brains and thus reach the level of rank and power that he did.
While Jackson did create a unique character for him, the problem with his depiction is that survival of the fittest would have resulted in something as crippled as that character being slain at birth in Mordor and if it was allowed to try to survive for some reason, it would have ended up starving or being killed by the other orcs eventually, with no hope of it ever making the orc equivalent of PFC, much less becoming the Lich King's second in command - heck, it probably wouldn't have even survived to adulthood.
Doesn't the extended version of Return of the King, show his death?
Arm chopped up, nailed in the belly, and stabbed in the back. Owie!
Yeah, I believe Legolas and Gimli get him.
@@katherinegraham3803Yup. After Eowyn gets a few hits in earlier
@@katherinegraham3803 Aragorn, not Legolas.
If I remember correctly, middle earth role playing game had him as a half troll
I remember the War of the Ring board game from 1978 had Gothmog as a Nazgul, second only to the Lord of the Nazgul.
Gothmog might be goth, but Melkor with always be Morgoth.
I wish I had made up that joke, but I didn’t.
😅😅😅😅😅😅
I wasn't there, but I knew many men who were. From them I have understood that Gothmog was more like the Mouth of Sauron.
Named after the lord of balrogs. See a lot of namesakes that could be confusing in Tolkien’s work. Tol Sirion was the first Minas Trith. Gorgoreth near Nandungortheb in beleriand and plateau of gorgoreth in Mordor of course. We also have Grond the hammer of the underworld and the battering ram from the return of the king. Anyone have any?
Let's not underestimate the potential of individual Orcs to rise to high-ranking positions in Sauron's realm. While they may be generally considered less intelligent than men, this doesn't mean there aren't exceptionally smart ones among them. The Great Goblin, for instance, was a prime example of this, with his sharp wit and practicality. The trolls in Trollshaws, despite their ultimate defeat, also demonstrated a certain level of intelligence in their individual ambushes on dwarves.
I personally never liked the idea that Gothmog was an orc, since from what we've seen, orcs just don't have the cooperation or intelligence to be efficient commanders even of their own kind, let alone of a huge army composed of disperate forces (look at how Shagrat and Gorbag fall out).
When I read up on the Variags of Kand, I learned that their name was based on the Varangian, who were Slavic mercenaries who fought in the bizantine empire, this gave me a thought about Gothmog.
In terms of allegiance, Sauron's army therefore seems to be made up of three different groups. Orcs, trolls, Nazgul and those creatures directly under Sauron's control.
Haradrim, easterlings and corsairs of Umbar, those who paid Sauron tribute and likely considered him their overlord, though were not directly controlled by him, and groups like the Variags of Kand, who were mercenaries who fought for coin.
If the Witch king commanded Sauron's forces directly, and the black serpent, or some other general commanded the Haradrim, it's reasonable to assume the mercenaries had their own commander, presumably Gothmog.
Being a mercenary, we can infer that he was an experienced war leader, probably more experienced than the Haradrim general (who probably only had to deal with slave revaults).
Also, the fact that he's called "the lieutenant of morgul", and names himself after an ancient demon suggests just what Sauron is offering him in return, something similar to what Sauron offered the mouth of Sauronn, powerful magic and likely extended life even without another ring of power.
Indeed, it's possible that Gothmog was even promised one of the three remaining dwarven rings after the battle, thus effectively making him into a being similar to Gothmog of old, an immortal spirit of evil.
Again, we don't know for sure, it's more likely Tolkien just liked the name, and like Grond stuck it in as a memorial to the older legendarium, but I do like the idea that he was the head Variag or some other mercenary war leader.
And after all who would be scarier commanding the variags of kand and the hole dark army once the witchking fell, than the kandyman!
In then table top game 'Battle for Middle Earth Gothmog was a ring wraith .
Is Gothmog a family member of mine? I can see it in some of my family. It wouldn’t surprise me at all.
After the movie, I thought he was the physical body of Sauron, the missing fingers (I used to think he was missing an eye as well) and the mangled appearance but I quickly debunked that. I kind of like the idea of that though
i think it was simple, an orc who suffered an infection but somehow survived and had a reputation of a good leader before
Gosh! He’ll show those men!
Idk if you've seen it but he did get killed in return of the king in a deleted scene
ive always wondered what happend to the half of his body. maybe we get to find out in Hunt for Gollum?
I want to hear a what if the orcs rebelled againts sauron video
Maybe a Nazgul but I think more likely a man, similar to the Mouth of Sauron, who was skilled in strategy and tactics; a good general, in fact.
He was named after the Dungeon Synth band. 👈🏻👌🏻
I vote that he is a nazgul. He is second in command at Minas morgul. That means that whenever the witch king is absent, Gothmog takes command of the city of ringwraiths....
I think the LOTRO explanation is the most plausible. Why would Earnur just simply be killed, along with his retinue of knights, when Sauron could do something truly evil and turn them into wraiths in service against Gondor. It seems Tolkien always turned to what would be the most evil thing they could do for his evil characters.
I think I'd prefer him to be something other then a bog-standard orc. It'd be interesting if he retained a visage his elvish heritage, maybe through the magic he had acquired and tried to look like them again in his own twisted way. I'm imagining someone like Prince Nuada from Hellboy 2.
I honestly think of Gothmog in Lord of the Rings as an orc, an exceptional orc but an orc nonetheless. However, I think that "Gothmog" might be something like a title, something a follower of Sauron would be called upon achieving a certain rank or station.
There's a lot of diminishing from one age to another, and I think Gothmog ties into this. To go from Gothmog, chief of the Balrogs in the first age to Gothmog, some lowly orc or evil man in the third age, could tie into the general diminishing of middle earth.
I like the idea of Gothmog as a title rather than a single entity, like Warmaster. Very fitting mirror for Sauron, and the whole idea of evil can change its face, but not its nature.
Love the art from MTG! What's the chances you play? Lol
i think Gothmog was a black Numenorean like Mouth of Sauron lieutenant of Barad-Dur was. He was not a Nazgul.
I think the idea of a fallen, lesser Maiar fits the bill. And who can say what form a Maiar would take? Lol, I don't know. To me, it seems entirely possible that Morgoth would have seduced, and corrupted other Maiar for different purposes apart from the Balrogs, and Sauron, as his lieutenant and successor. I mean, Gothmog is directly named after the King of Balrogs, so some insinuation of Maiar is already there.
Since he's smart, possibly long-lived and has a thing for the first age, I always reckoned he might be a corrupted elf turned to evil. Just a random thought.
Goth mog truly was a revolutionary. Raising the oppressed proletariat against the bourgeoisie colonial races of men, elves and dwarves. A orc who went against the grain and stepped out of his allotted class. Truly he will be remembered amongst the likes of che, Marx, Lenin and Kim il sun. Rest in peace sweet prince
Late- Third Age Elf/Orc hybrid?
The you think of it, the more evil it looks
Sounds appropriate for Sauron
He was either a black numenorean or a wraith... But I'm leaning towards him being one of the nine since he served as the witch king's second in command. I don't think a mere orc or man no matter how fell they were could unite a vast host like that just by mere power of persuasion or force of personality.
👍👍👍
I just assumed any leader were the first created...I always had it in my mind that he any other leader were created with just a dash more attention from Saurmon for the purpose of leadership🤷♂️
In LotR Tolkien says *twice* that it was NOT an orc-chieftain who led the assault upon Gondor. It would be quite strange if he would follow that with an orc-chieftain taking the charge of the assault 10 pages later. That's just not how you write books!
Gothmog in the film was actually well done. He came off being a semi-strong evil leader
HEEEEYYYYY YOUUUUU ORRRRCSSSS!!
(looks like rocky road's back on the menu, guys)
Trying to remember Gothmog, but Mrs Maggot had much more appeal. The beer and mushrooms go a long way.
But seriously. Weren't orcs, Gothmog, sick breeds of elves?
That's exactly how I took it, even in the books. Gothmog was probably bred with a special fell type of sorcery, which made him a little more cunning than the rest. It's as if he was bred to be a field general
gothmog was just trying to spread diversity and enrich the lives of men he was bringing culture do those lands and it was surely needed
Spoiler, He survived the war and hid away in the dark places of the world before he return and became a AH movie producer.
Black Númenórean, I think, but not the king, wraith or otherwise.
Gothmog was most likely a special orc made by special fell sorcery. He was an orc with higher intelligence.... a high orc, if you will.
Actually, his name is Porky Orcy. We named him that when the movie came out in the theater... As far as we're concerned he will always be Porky Orcy! 😂
I think he was half Man, half Orc, bred of ruin to further ruin.
Kuddos to Sauron for hiring people who otherwise will not be hired by McDonald's.
Wait, if Gothmog was an elvish name... do you suppose Gothmog maaaay have been some kind of rogue elf?!
I thought gothmog was a balrog!
Ye, Lord of balrogs. Share a name I guess
Did you not listen to the video he says this lol
@@IvanSanchez-fe7bu maybe but he didn't really explain it, so those not very familiar with the extended universe might not quite get it
Do Guritz if you haven’t already
Guritz is basically an OC, she he’s not canonical. But Guritz is a cool dude.
I never liked his depiction in the Peter Jackson movies. I couldn't believe that an orc that is so disabled can be brought to the forefront of an army that promotes strength and deadlines. He couldn't even run. I only recently learned his name as I have never heard his name spoken in the movie. But I did hear (not sure if from this channel) that he was a joke character put in as there was someone at the production company they didn't like as they tried to intrude on Jackson and Co's vision so they gave that guy a cameo and made him how they see him as gothmog. So makes sense just as farkwad from shrek was used to make a jab at someone, but wished they had done him more justice and a more likely version for gothmog.
Sauron was a known Necromancer what if Gothmog was the original but in a different orc body
One of the many things i really don't like about the Jackson Movies is the Battle of the pellenor Fields. It was stated in the books that not mere orc chieftrain was leading the armys of mordor but the Witchking himself and what did we see in the movies? An Orc leading mordors army.
I completly agree with the video, it makes no sense for gothmog to be an Orc i allways immagined him to be an black numorean.
Maybe both Gothmogs are the same Gothmog, kinda like an evil Glorfindel....?
He's actually quite compassionate.
He releases prisoners. 😂
You mean via trebuchet?
Grond!