Something that I wasn't aware of is that Patreon was actually charging some additional fees on the supporter's side in some cases but those members have informed me that those fees are gone now that we've made the switch to KoFi! 🥳
Yes, the only issue is, Ko-Fi does not remit sales tax for you and Patreon does (in case you create special content as a contributor for higher tier members, in case you use Ko-Fi shop - you are on your own with tax submission).
I'm not really mad at Patreon, I'm way more mad at banks and Paypal for always double-dipping or even triple-dipping with conversion fees and transfer fees. They take a fee to convert patron's donations, and a transfer fee too I suppose, then Patreon has to pay a transfer fee when they send the money to creators, then I have to pay another fee to convert the USDs sent by Patreon in euros. It's just insane, and I feel like most of these fees are just abusive power and not an actual service that we pay for. They take the money because they can.
You're right although Patreon actually handles processing the money all itself to take those profits for itself rather than handing them off to paypal. It's true banks and Paypal are also greedy with conversions (and much much more that is too deep to go into in this comment) and for that reason, I have the same issues with Banks and Paypal as I do with Patreon. I actually use Wealth Simple for my banking and Wise for my currency conversions to avoid giving any money to banks (maybe I'll make videos on those topics eventually) I still haven't found a complete alternative for Paypal. Competition is what's supposed to keep these companies in check but it doesn't seem present or effective with banks or things like paypal and patreon with few other alternatives
Bro this came in clutch, Patreon is acting funny style and I was getting bad vibes. Just signed up for ko-fi and everything is going smoothly and I'm already up and running. Appreciate the video my guy.
Thx for the info. You should reach out to King of Average, industry controversy and matters like this one he would more then likely talk about as well.
Garg. Who knew. The stated 8% cut turning into a 20% hidden cut is incredibly misleading, to the point of false advertising. I wouldn't mind the 20% fee so much if they were up front about it, but being so scummy about it annoys me to the point that I'm going to re-evaluate Ko-Fi. It looks like they've improved a lot since the last time I looked at them. Having said all that, it's better than the TH-cam memberships and one-time donations, which are 30%. Thanks for making this video. It's super helpful. EDIT: I just checked mine, and this is pretty much spot on. Patreon has an "Earnings Breakdown by Month" spreadsheet that shows all the calculations. Patreon is taking 18.5% of mine.
Believe me, I have issues issues with how youtube operates and treats their creators but that's a whole other video 😅 I wish there were other alternatives but they dominate the market and basically do & take whatever they want
Just to follow up on this... I started using Ko-Fi a while back, before I had a Patreon, and one of the things that I noticed was the automatic transfer to PayPal was causing a lot of high fees because of the frequent small amounts that each have a set fee tacked on. I just looked back and a $5 Ko-Fi donation ended up a $4.01 PayPay deposit. That was one of the reasons I went with Patreon. It's a PayPal thing, not a a Ko-Fi thing, but it made for a 20% hit on small donations. @@ShelfClutter
Have you noticed any issues with customers being reluctant to use Ko-Fi? Patreon has good name recognition, but their service seems to really suck for what I need, but I've been reluctant to make the jump.
Good question! I have not noticed any reluctancy on my end. Most of my existing members have made the switch after I explained the situation, and the amount of new members hasn't decreased in any noticeable way. Hope that helps :)
Behold the coming enshittification (thank you Cory Doctorow). Dispiriting but excellent analysis - I hope this information is shared widely and quickly.
Thanks for making the switch. I've been keeping tabs and it's been wayy better already. Feeling much better about giving KoFi our business rather than Patreon now that I see their true colors
Nice video! We had a grandfathered Patreon account so we had the 5% fee (not sure how many hidden fees there were), but we switched over to Ko-Fi due to the problems with Patreon's content moderation a year and a half ago. The fee for each transaction is a little sad but it's very transparent and so far we're enjoying Ko-Fi!
the 5% tier was actually pretty good. That was before they kept trying to raise their fees, they had a lot of pushback and multiple attempts but still managed to do it in the end but with letting existing members keep the more fair option they joined with
Ko-fi looks nice, unfortunately as it is based on paypal, people e.g. in Europe would be charged the currency change fee plus the disavantageous exchange rate that paypal applies. We have credit cards now that allow to pay in foreign currencies without these extra costs... I'm not sure if a platform exists that would allow to support you without these extra costs - I guess these platforms would be willing to make money anyway, so the overhead will never be zero, but that could further the idea that initiated this move away from Patreon.
Yeah Patreon charged currency conversions as well but you're right that Paypal is also greedy with this. I hate the feeling of being charged to convert money to money😅 Ko-Fi also works with Stripe but I'm not sure how much better it is, I'll try experimenting with that.
I just hate the concept of paying so much just for the middle and just because they are a "safe platform" like, whatever, any online platform doing money transaction is safe, paypal only ask up to 3.5% or so, why would I pay double for literally the same thing. the idea of "service" is dumb because that service cost is literal pennies, why do we need to pay full time people when 99% of the service is done by computer and nobody is needed... for god sake 20% is just outrageous level like game platform. why not just set up a small website where ppl can donate with paypal directly instead of adding another pointless middle man that doesnt add anything or "service" really?
Exactly, that's what I like about how KoFi works. It doesn't hold or handle the money, it just sends it directly to paypal or stripe. Patreon wants to do all of that management, when they don't need to, so that they can take those profits and charge more behind "processing fees". I hope we see more competition in the financial space, I'm already seeing disruption in different areas with WealthSimple, Wise, KoFi, and other less-greedy platforms
Thanks for the great information, Adam! I'm not a content creator myself, but as a supporter of several content creators on Patreon, I am certainly interested in trying to increase the percentage of my donations going to content creators rather than to platforms or financial intermediaries. One of the content creators I support on Patreon is having a livestreaming event this weekend. If I make a one-time donation during the event, what would you suggest is the best way to do it? You mentioned in the video that Patreon doesn't support one-time donations. I also see that TH-cam takes 30% of SuperChat donations (that's outrageous!). Is there any reason the content creator couldn't just setup a PayPal-hosted donate button and provide a link to it in the chat during the livestream event? It look's like PayPal's fees are 2.89% plus a small fixed fee (which sounds a lot better to me than 30%!). Hmm, I just remembered the content creator is Canadian, so I wonder if they could set up a USD PayPal account, or if not, whether they'd be hit with a hefty USD/CAD exchange rate conversion fee. (Good grief! I'm sure it's not rocket science, but it seems like this process could be a lot easier.) Any thoughts or suggestions about donating during the livestream would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Yeah, youtube is crazy 😅 I wish we had more competition in the space. Paypal is a great option for one time donations! That's actually what I use and Paypal IS able to store USD as well as CAD (although I can't remember if I had to change settings to enable this 🤔) I avoid any currency conversions through Paypal or banks as they are pretty bad so I usually keep a USD balance and use it if I make any US purchases, otherwise I send it to my Wise account that has much better conversion rates. BUT even if they get dinged with conversion rates, its still going to be a lot less than youtube or patreon fees!! Hope that helps :)
Thanks for discussing this. I am new, but had planned to eventually go with something other than patreon after doing my own research, for the reasons you stated here. I had thought of just going with youtube channel membership, which you didn't mention. I notice that you do have it. Does it fall short? What do you gain from having another patronage platform?
Hey Alan, thanks for the comment. Regarding TH-cam's membership, I did look into it some time ago and it didn't look great at the time. I actually just enabled it this past week despite it being something I don't expect I'd recommend. The reason I enabled it is just to provide the option to anyone who prefers to support through TH-cam. Some viewers are familiar with youtube memberships and don't want to sign up on other platforms. I won't be advertising the youtube memberships but those that prefer it will find it on their own. I hope that helps!
@@ShelfClutter very helpful, thank you! BTW, I'm a big fan of your channel! you make one of the two kickstarter roundups I watch every week, yours to know what's coming up and room and boards to see what's ending.
Great video, thanks for putting the work into this! I also checked and I've been charge almost $12 dollars for the $10 pledge, which is insane (even if I support you from the UK)... I'm cancelling Patreon and switch to support you on Ko-fi to maximise my support. 😉 As I've been a supporter for quite a couple of years now, is that going to be noted on Ko-fi somehow?
Why can't creators just use a direct payment platform like Paypal? And only use that. Why does everything always have to use a middle-man? Stores are also completely useless. Why can't we buy all of our products directly from the manufacturing company? It's a stupid system that everybody unfortunately embraced. You recommend Ko-Fi & Buy Me A Coffee but just like every company, as they get bigger, they get worse. Companies like eBay, TH-cam & Patreon start off awesome but as they get better they turn into shit & then we have to look for alternatives. So how long until you have to look for alternatives to Ko-Fi & Buy Me A Coffee?
Yeah, the concept of enshitification is real. Patreon used to be a great option in their early years but now look at them. Right now using kofi is the same as direct payment as they don't handle the money at all other than forwarding to PayPal which had their own fees. The reason it's good to use a platform like this is to easily share member only content and interact with messages and comments which isn't offered with PayPal
You're right that companies always get worse and more greedy ( since they have to satisfy the shareholders and investors ), that's the real problem. But as a creator, using a third-party simplifies everything a lot. For instance in the EU, creators would be confronted to VATs, and each country has different VATs, so we'd need to charge for VAT depending on the country of the supporter/buyer, then pay these taxes to the right administration. Small creators don't have the tools or knowledge to deal with that. Companies like Patreon and Gumroad do that for us. And they provide a brand and a legit safe space for donators who don't want to fall into some scammer trap. Other countries also have specific taxes. Paypal charges conversion and transfer fees no matter if you use a third-party or not.
@@Texelion its true they provide a service and that's what makes them a good product but at what point does the endless unsustainable goal of year over year growth in profits cross the line of greed and being morally negligent. It is subjective for sure but the line is somewhere and usually towed by competition which is sparse in this space and the little competition there is unknown to creators (which I hope this video helps bring to light)
@@ShelfClutter That's capitalism, man. Not sure we'll ever get rid of it. They're not here to build something sustainable, they're here for maximum profits before running a company to the ground, then they leech on something else.
@@ShelfClutter don't worry about it, my only concern is I've donated to you but didn't make an account on Kofi so not sure how to ever edit that 😅 Scrub that, I figured it out
Something that I wasn't aware of is that Patreon was actually charging some additional fees on the supporter's side in some cases but those members have informed me that those fees are gone now that we've made the switch to KoFi! 🥳
Yes, the only issue is, Ko-Fi does not remit sales tax for you and Patreon does (in case you create special content as a contributor for higher tier members, in case you use Ko-Fi shop - you are on your own with tax submission).
I'm not really mad at Patreon, I'm way more mad at banks and Paypal for always double-dipping or even triple-dipping with conversion fees and transfer fees. They take a fee to convert patron's donations, and a transfer fee too I suppose, then Patreon has to pay a transfer fee when they send the money to creators, then I have to pay another fee to convert the USDs sent by Patreon in euros.
It's just insane, and I feel like most of these fees are just abusive power and not an actual service that we pay for. They take the money because they can.
You're right although Patreon actually handles processing the money all itself to take those profits for itself rather than handing them off to paypal. It's true banks and Paypal are also greedy with conversions (and much much more that is too deep to go into in this comment) and for that reason, I have the same issues with Banks and Paypal as I do with Patreon. I actually use Wealth Simple for my banking and Wise for my currency conversions to avoid giving any money to banks (maybe I'll make videos on those topics eventually) I still haven't found a complete alternative for Paypal. Competition is what's supposed to keep these companies in check but it doesn't seem present or effective with banks or things like paypal and patreon with few other alternatives
Bro this came in clutch, Patreon is acting funny style and I was getting bad vibes. Just signed up for ko-fi and everything is going smoothly and I'm already up and running. Appreciate the video my guy.
Yeah Patreon feels very soulless after how much they are gouging. Glad the video helped you avoid that!
Thx for the info. You should reach out to King of Average, industry controversy and matters like this one he would more then likely talk about as well.
I'd love to hear his opinion :)
Garg. Who knew. The stated 8% cut turning into a 20% hidden cut is incredibly misleading, to the point of false advertising. I wouldn't mind the 20% fee so much if they were up front about it, but being so scummy about it annoys me to the point that I'm going to re-evaluate Ko-Fi. It looks like they've improved a lot since the last time I looked at them.
Having said all that, it's better than the TH-cam memberships and one-time donations, which are 30%.
Thanks for making this video. It's super helpful.
EDIT: I just checked mine, and this is pretty much spot on. Patreon has an "Earnings Breakdown by Month" spreadsheet that shows all the calculations. Patreon is taking 18.5% of mine.
Believe me, I have issues issues with how youtube operates and treats their creators but that's a whole other video 😅
I wish there were other alternatives but they dominate the market and basically do & take whatever they want
Just to follow up on this... I started using Ko-Fi a while back, before I had a Patreon, and one of the things that I noticed was the automatic transfer to PayPal was causing a lot of high fees because of the frequent small amounts that each have a set fee tacked on. I just looked back and a $5 Ko-Fi donation ended up a $4.01 PayPay deposit. That was one of the reasons I went with Patreon. It's a PayPal thing, not a a Ko-Fi thing, but it made for a 20% hit on small donations. @@ShelfClutter
Interesting info. Thanks for digging into the details and passing along what you've discovered.
Thanks John. A little different than the usual content but I hope it helps :)
Great video! Informative. I didn’t support you on Patreon but I’m now a supporter on Ko-Fi. Keep up the good work! 🇨🇦
Very much appreciated Jeff! Thanks for always joining the fun in the comments and now on KoFo too :)
From bottom of my heart and from the bottom of my pocket: Thank you for this video!
You are very welcome :)
Thanks for posting this video - I've shared it on a UK site that has a few content creators on it.
Thanks for sharing. I'm happy to be able to shed some light on the topic with a bit more transparency than Patreon does! I hope it helps!
Have you noticed any issues with customers being reluctant to use Ko-Fi? Patreon has good name recognition, but their service seems to really suck for what I need, but I've been reluctant to make the jump.
Good question! I have not noticed any reluctancy on my end. Most of my existing members have made the switch after I explained the situation, and the amount of new members hasn't decreased in any noticeable way. Hope that helps :)
Behold the coming enshittification (thank you Cory Doctorow). Dispiriting but excellent analysis - I hope this information is shared widely and quickly.
You are exactly right! A textbook example of enshittification. It's too bad because I do believe Patreon started with good intentions
Great video. Hope more people see this and are able to make the change.
Agreed. I'm glad there are other options these days!
Switch done yesterday, thanks for the video report on this
Thanks for making the switch. I've been keeping tabs and it's been wayy better already. Feeling much better about giving KoFi our business rather than Patreon now that I see their true colors
Happy to move over to Ko-Fi for you! :)
Thanks for that Miles! :)
Wow, I wasn't aware. Will review my contributions. Thanks for sharing! 👍❤️
No problemo! Happy to help get the word out!
Nice video! We had a grandfathered Patreon account so we had the 5% fee (not sure how many hidden fees there were), but we switched over to Ko-Fi due to the problems with Patreon's content moderation a year and a half ago. The fee for each transaction is a little sad but it's very transparent and so far we're enjoying Ko-Fi!
the 5% tier was actually pretty good. That was before they kept trying to raise their fees, they had a lot of pushback and multiple attempts but still managed to do it in the end but with letting existing members keep the more fair option they joined with
Ko-fi looks nice, unfortunately as it is based on paypal, people e.g. in Europe would be charged the currency change fee plus the disavantageous exchange rate that paypal applies. We have credit cards now that allow to pay in foreign currencies without these extra costs... I'm not sure if a platform exists that would allow to support you without these extra costs - I guess these platforms would be willing to make money anyway, so the overhead will never be zero, but that could further the idea that initiated this move away from Patreon.
Yeah Patreon charged currency conversions as well but you're right that Paypal is also greedy with this. I hate the feeling of being charged to convert money to money😅
Ko-Fi also works with Stripe but I'm not sure how much better it is, I'll try experimenting with that.
Switch has been made. Thanks for your continued hard work.
Thanks Brian :)
I just hate the concept of paying so much just for the middle and just because they are a "safe platform" like, whatever, any online platform doing money transaction is safe, paypal only ask up to 3.5% or so, why would I pay double for literally the same thing.
the idea of "service" is dumb because that service cost is literal pennies, why do we need to pay full time people when 99% of the service is done by computer and nobody is needed...
for god sake 20% is just outrageous level like game platform.
why not just set up a small website where ppl can donate with paypal directly instead of adding another pointless middle man that doesnt add anything or "service" really?
Exactly, that's what I like about how KoFi works. It doesn't hold or handle the money, it just sends it directly to paypal or stripe. Patreon wants to do all of that management, when they don't need to, so that they can take those profits and charge more behind "processing fees". I hope we see more competition in the financial space, I'm already seeing disruption in different areas with WealthSimple, Wise, KoFi, and other less-greedy platforms
Thanks for the great information, Adam! I'm not a content creator myself, but as a supporter of several content creators on Patreon, I am certainly interested in trying to increase the percentage of my donations going to content creators rather than to platforms or financial intermediaries. One of the content creators I support on Patreon is having a livestreaming event this weekend. If I make a one-time donation during the event, what would you suggest is the best way to do it? You mentioned in the video that Patreon doesn't support one-time donations. I also see that TH-cam takes 30% of SuperChat donations (that's outrageous!). Is there any reason the content creator couldn't just setup a PayPal-hosted donate button and provide a link to it in the chat during the livestream event? It look's like PayPal's fees are 2.89% plus a small fixed fee (which sounds a lot better to me than 30%!). Hmm, I just remembered the content creator is Canadian, so I wonder if they could set up a USD PayPal account, or if not, whether they'd be hit with a hefty USD/CAD exchange rate conversion fee. (Good grief! I'm sure it's not rocket science, but it seems like this process could be a lot easier.) Any thoughts or suggestions about donating during the livestream would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Yeah, youtube is crazy 😅 I wish we had more competition in the space. Paypal is a great option for one time donations! That's actually what I use and Paypal IS able to store USD as well as CAD (although I can't remember if I had to change settings to enable this 🤔) I avoid any currency conversions through Paypal or banks as they are pretty bad so I usually keep a USD balance and use it if I make any US purchases, otherwise I send it to my Wise account that has much better conversion rates. BUT even if they get dinged with conversion rates, its still going to be a lot less than youtube or patreon fees!! Hope that helps :)
@@ShelfClutter Thanks! Much appreciated. Subscribed.
Welcome and thanks for the support!
Feel free to reach out if there's anything else I can help with :)
That commission is waaay too high, imo. Then the extras, damn. Makes me angry at them, esp considering founders story
Yeah I believe the founder had good intentions at first maybe those old values fell off or maybe too many other hands in the pot at this point
Thanks for discussing this. I am new, but had planned to eventually go with something other than patreon after doing my own research, for the reasons you stated here. I had thought of just going with youtube channel membership, which you didn't mention. I notice that you do have it. Does it fall short? What do you gain from having another patronage platform?
Hey Alan, thanks for the comment.
Regarding TH-cam's membership, I did look into it some time ago and it didn't look great at the time. I actually just enabled it this past week despite it being something I don't expect I'd recommend.
The reason I enabled it is just to provide the option to anyone who prefers to support through TH-cam. Some viewers are familiar with youtube memberships and don't want to sign up on other platforms. I won't be advertising the youtube memberships but those that prefer it will find it on their own. I hope that helps!
@@ShelfClutter very helpful, thank you! BTW, I'm a big fan of your channel! you make one of the two kickstarter roundups I watch every week, yours to know what's coming up and room and boards to see what's ending.
@@JAlanRykerGames Chris does a great job, honored to be paired with him 😁 Sounds like a good combo of content 😉
I had a entry level member and ended up with a zero dollar balance
Great video, thanks for putting the work into this!
I also checked and I've been charge almost $12 dollars for the $10 pledge, which is insane (even if I support you from the UK)...
I'm cancelling Patreon and switch to support you on Ko-fi to maximise my support. 😉
As I've been a supporter for quite a couple of years now, is that going to be noted on Ko-fi somehow?
Interesting video Adam. Now I might be able to buy you a coffee some time.
Haha thanks, sounds great. I could use a coffee, my coffee maker actually just broke and I've been drinking tea😅 Very out of character!
Why can't creators just use a direct payment platform like Paypal? And only use that. Why does everything always have to use a middle-man? Stores are also completely useless. Why can't we buy all of our products directly from the manufacturing company? It's a stupid system that everybody unfortunately embraced.
You recommend Ko-Fi & Buy Me A Coffee but just like every company, as they get bigger, they get worse. Companies like eBay, TH-cam & Patreon start off awesome but as they get better they turn into shit & then we have to look for alternatives. So how long until you have to look for alternatives to Ko-Fi & Buy Me A Coffee?
Yeah, the concept of enshitification is real. Patreon used to be a great option in their early years but now look at them. Right now using kofi is the same as direct payment as they don't handle the money at all other than forwarding to PayPal which had their own fees. The reason it's good to use a platform like this is to easily share member only content and interact with messages and comments which isn't offered with PayPal
You're right that companies always get worse and more greedy ( since they have to satisfy the shareholders and investors ), that's the real problem.
But as a creator, using a third-party simplifies everything a lot. For instance in the EU, creators would be confronted to VATs, and each country has different VATs, so we'd need to charge for VAT depending on the country of the supporter/buyer, then pay these taxes to the right administration.
Small creators don't have the tools or knowledge to deal with that. Companies like Patreon and Gumroad do that for us. And they provide a brand and a legit safe space for donators who don't want to fall into some scammer trap.
Other countries also have specific taxes. Paypal charges conversion and transfer fees no matter if you use a third-party or not.
@@Texelion its true they provide a service and that's what makes them a good product but at what point does the endless unsustainable goal of year over year growth in profits cross the line of greed and being morally negligent. It is subjective for sure but the line is somewhere and usually towed by competition which is sparse in this space and the little competition there is unknown to creators (which I hope this video helps bring to light)
@@ShelfClutter That's capitalism, man. Not sure we'll ever get rid of it. They're not here to build something sustainable, they're here for maximum profits before running a company to the ground, then they leech on something else.
Why can't there just be a payment that goes directly to your bank account. Sheesh. I'm trying to monetize my discord server.
That would be nice :) Hopefully there are more options in the future!
I jumped off the Patreon ship. Ko-fi had a cuter boat.
Thanks Stacie :) it is much cuter! 😁
Switched to ko-fi!
Thank Ed! ☕
Nicely articulated. 👍👍
I'll make the swap later.
Thank you! Just let me know if Patreon already charged you and I'll issue a refund there!
@@ShelfClutter don't worry about it, my only concern is I've donated to you but didn't make an account on Kofi so not sure how to ever edit that 😅
Scrub that, I figured it out
@@Flip5ide infinite money glitch! 😂
Oh, so this isn't about the Patreon pedophilia thing?
Hadn't heard of that but god I hope it's not what it sounds like