Really Red, no signs of Hel. We don't see her but we have an enemy called Helson and they do talk about Hel and her influence during the game (specifically that the visions in helheim are sent by her if I remember correctly.
What I love about that line, “the cycle ends here,” Kratos is quoting Zeus. A real sign of Kratos’ story returning to a very critical point in his life.
It also adds in the fact that Kratos knows that killing one God is not the end but the beginning of that vicious cycle. I think it was smart to have Baldur as the games antagonist (not villain, just antagonist) because he acts as a mirror for Kratos. Like Kratos, Baldur is someone who was manipulated and used by the Gods. Mainly his mother Freya, who made him immune to all sense of feelings. He just wants to be set free from that curse, in which he ultimately does and seeks to take revenge on the one who placed the curse upon him. Just as Ares did to Kratos (although the difference is that Kratos willingly made the deal, while Baldur did not). A take on the final fight is basically Baldur wanting to feel something. He comments in the first fight that he believed Kratos of all people would make him feel something. So his objective in that final fight was not to kill Kratos, but to finally feel something. He even says that Kratos could've just walked away and let him have his revenge on the God that wronged him. However Kratos has first hand experience of where that rabbit hole would led and the consequences that will follow. Not jus the physical (as we saw in GoW 3) but the emotional and physiological consequences as well.
@@Pablo360able Paid mercenaries to capture the avatar... also he sided with the people that almost killed the avatar and imprisoned his uncle...There was a lot of room for redemption.
@@Pablo360able Stole an Ostrich Horse from people who helped feed him, Lashing out at everyone around him even his own men who were the only ones he (a banished prince) had command over, Free the avatar (bad thing for going against his country by aiding the only threat that could stop them win the war) for his own personal benefit.
I always found that the “cringe” dialogue during Atreus’s power trip was supposed to be cringe inducing cause that’s the attitude we all had at that age and it was cringe worthy to everyone around us back then.
Perhaps. *Or*, it's his own anger and frustration with both his parents (Kratos was the one lying, but Faye also was the one who kept the truth from coming out, regardless) for keeping his true lineage a secret after all these years sort-of manifesting itself into a kind of power-tripping the same way Kratos was during all the previous games, either that or Baldur's (although I thought I read somewhere that even Barlog was a little iffy on that, but that's the way I interpreted it, at least). Atreus literally thought Kratos didn't want him exactly because he was so cold and distant with him in the first place. *I would get pretty irrational and pissed-off, too* if I found out that one of my parents was lying to me because they didn't want to deal with their own problems.
Mark Brackney I’m not refuting that and I guess I never really thought about it and it’s probably true, with the writers probably looking at it from that point of view at some during development. But Atreus’s dialogue during that sequence after finding out the truth is pretty cringeworthy. And we were all pretty cringeworthy at that age when we thought we were all trying to be the coolest. And of course after finding out about being a god, Atreus’s tries to act like a cool god and it intentionally comes across as cringy. Plus we all did cringy stuff when we were angry as a kid so there’s that too.
@@sociallyineptspider-man2366 It's not a God complex as much as it's just hubris in general. Every kid from 9 - 15 gets hubris, especially when you find out your parents are cool AF.
Something about the weapons meaning you did not mention, is that the two weapons kratos use, represent both his new and old mindset and ways: --Blades of chaos: young kratos, chaining him like a prisoner of his own actions. As his rage, they burn everything they touch, they do damage fast and in a very wide are, not only the target, but anything remotely close to it, symbolizing all the collateral damage kratos have done in his quest for vengeance without even thinking about it. Anything attacked by them it burns into ashes. --Leviathan axe: an ice weapon, just as kratos wants to be able to keep his cool and control himself. the axe is slower but more precisely just as kratos experience and age changed his combat style to be more focused, the weapon deals damage only to close targets (allowing him to not hurt atreus by mistake). Also being able to be thrown precisely to specific targets very accurately. This weapon doesn't consume his enemies, but leaves them frozen in place, allowing kratos the time to think if the enemies really need to be put down or can be shown mercy.
another thing i like about the axe and blades is as you said in the beginning. his blades are chained to him, almost saying that he can't really get rid of it, no matter how hard he tries. even after all the pain he caused with them, he still keeps them. after all the hell both himself and thoose chain caused in greek, for both himself and others. but with the axe he can literally throw it away, not really needing if necessary. he can just throw the axe away when meeting an enemy and then beat them with his fists. but he can also summon it back to his hand, whenever he DESIRES it. never permanently only giving him 1 option.
I feel like I need to add something to just how great the entire “retrieving the Blades of Chaos” scene/gameplay is. I feel like I’ve seen many people discuss this topic but I haven’t seen someone touch on it. Red and Blue come close here by talking about how it felt using the Blades to now down enemies just like the old games, giving a sense of catharsis. It did more than that, though. The attack combos are all identical to the first games. This was more than everything that’s discussed in this video: it’s also a love letter to the fans that have been here since the beginning. As soon as I was able to use the Blades, I began inputting combos I remember and each animation was exactly what I expected it to be. I knew how to use these weapons because I was the one who led Kratos to this story. I knew how the abilities I would unlock worked because they all tied in to the previous iterations. This scene wasn’t just Kratos getting his past weapons back; this was about ME getting MY past weapons back. Idk who might read this since it’ll be buried by others, but I’ve been wanting to say this since I experienced that moment in the game. I hope anyone who does read this got to also experience that cathartic, nostalgic blast.
Sure the basic combos were, but everything about their versatility in their movesets in the other games isn't there.....it's a pale imitation of any of the other game's movesets That said, it's the first moment it actually felt like a God of War game
Every time I hear Athena say: "You will always be a monster" I break down a little bit. A wonderfully delivered line and a fantastic response by Chris Judge.
So I had played the previous GoW games, I grew up with them. When I got the blades of Exile back, I LOST. MY. MIND. That moment blew me away as well, and I think it's because I'd literally played through everything they represented, and I had actually felt detached from them in the new game because Kratos as a character was trying to move on, and in a weird way his new weapon (axe) felt like a representation of that in the gameplay "things are different now... Get used to it" so the return of the twin blades had such an impact on me emotionally.
@@joelwybrew it's kinda funny how he got them when ever he tries to permanently get rid of them (such as throwing them into the ocean) they come back (a ship he's on crashes and when he washed ashore there they were)
@@vincegalila7211 he even makes an effort to never seeing them again by putting them under his house. The boy says hes not allowed to go under there in the beginning, probably for the same reason.
The reason video game scripts are shorter than books is because the environments, characters, character movements, objects, are all visually shown to you. Games typically don't narrate what the characters are thinking. In games, we mainly need to focus on dialogue. And the action scenes... well, those are up to the player.
@@HelloFutureMe In Game Development, there's a GDD (Game Design Doc) that's over 300 pages. Then there are smaller focused technical design docs that explain things like upgrades, the HUD, camera functions, controls, combat, enemies, etc... But most of these details are hashed out in long meetings and through iterations in production. Anything you see in a game, aside from the cutscenes, has been redone about 10 times. When the cutscenes are farmed out to a specialized group, then the team sends out detailed screenplays. But the in game stuff is done by the core team. Look at Witcher 3. Have you noticed that Cutscene Yennifer is different than Gameplay Yennifer? Or Keira Metz walks on her toes as if she was wearing shoes at one point, and her GWENT card / art is different from her final look?
To be fair to jormungandr being in the story Norse myth runs on a circular timeline rather than a straight on. It's weird but within reason under Norse rules.
Well, it's circular as presented in this depiction of Norse mythology. Under the Prose and Poetic Eddas it doesn't make sense. Not that it's not still cool, though!
not realy, a circular timeeline would mean something like in futurama were they go back around to get to where they started. ragnarok si the end of the world, but the birth of a new one, it's not the same world with the same people and the same history, it's something new
@@tommerker8063 It's still circular, just not a flat 2d circle, it's more like a 3d spiral. It would be a perfect circle if time weren't a thing, but as time moves on so does the position of the circle, making it more resemble a slinky lol
I personally didn't have problems with the pacing at. I thought the way their goal kept getting away from them help creating tension and higher stakes, and fitted into the "Mythological Epic" feel that the game had, kinda like the Odyssey
Yeah, same here, there was no problem with pacing since there was no urgency to their quest, they were just fulfilling a promise, no stakes, no world ending threat (like in Skyrim or similar games). It was literally by Feys design so that Kratos and Boy can bond and become father and son. So called side quests that are such a drag in other games are just more opportunity to savor the new combat engine and enjoy some Axe action and eventually the blades (oh man that moment when he uses them for the first time, I still get the chills).
@@SonOfSeth Atreus even regularly encourages the side Questing. He was always excited to take a break and go exploring. It was encouraged within the motivations of the characters.
@@hypersloth8139 And all that kratos teaches his son is The side quests is pretty much the meat of it. "Don't talk to dead strangers boy." "It could be a trap boy." "This is how you gather boy." "They want to survive by eating us boy so kill them so that we can live boy....gray morality does not equate pointless fights." Man kratos is a tough loving dad. I love it.
@@HelloFutureMe It's the journey. Not the destination. That might be what some people(and me) are are feeling. You wanted "pay off" But it was happening as you went threw the game and it's story. All together not one big heartfelt moment to be a crunch for the hole.
I'm fairly certain that the "death bird" in Helheim is actually the Nameless Eagle who sits atop Yggdrasil and is continually verbally sparring with Nidhoggr the serpent trapped beneath Yggdrasil's roots courtesy of the meddlesome squirrel Ratatoskr(who is a summon). If so, that implies that in God of War's version of Norse myth, Helheim, of all places, is at the (metaphorical) summit of the World Tree and therefore all the realms. When I showed my brother(who is much more versed in Norse myth than me) the view from Helheim gate, he quickly made the same guess as to the bird's identity.
It's interesting the disparity between the beginning of the video and the middle where you start talking about the obstacles in the course of the game. IN the opening you describe the story as a "journey story", yet as you talk about obstacles the overarching narrative of the two characters learning to work together seems to diminish in importance. That's what all of those obstacles are. They're deviations from the main objective yes, but intentionally so. They exist to get in the way, to frustrate the relationship so that it can change and grow. This is best demonstrated with the light of Alfheim (one you found the most problematic). It forced the undercurrent of distrust and distance between the two characters to be brought out into the open. If every roadblock in the course of the journey was a shallow and simple problem it would lead to a shallow and simple narrative. The plot doesn't move forward, true. But as you say, it's a very simple plot with a single goal. These deviations and redirections from that goal exist not to move the plot forward, but to move the *story* forward. Despite having only a single objective, the story is one that doesn't just chug along in a straight line but one that unfolds in all directions. It allows Kratos' story to develop, Atreus', Freya and Baldur's, the dwarves'. And all of it to support the greater narrative theme, generally of family but more specifically of being a parent.
He mentions that the issue isn't necessarily the deviations from the main plot themselves but the very thin narrative motivation for going on those deviations. Like he said it could've been solved by simply making detours into these worlds part of Laufey's final wishes. The Light of Alfheim scene is great, he mentioned that himself, but it's weird that a good scene like that is placed in a section of the story that doesn't as a whole inform those story beats presented.
@@hiimchrisj But my impression was that it was? The black mist did not seem like a recent thing. Nor was the hidden gateway at the top of the mountain necessitating the Chisel. Laufey predicted their entire journey after all.,
God of War has been one of my favorite video game franchises of all time. Partly because I am a mythology nerd. I remember playing this game and I was almost at the end and I was like "Where is Loki? How can you make a video game about Norse mythology without Loki?" And BOY was I in for a surprise. This has been the most satisfying plot twist I've ever seen.
I love your videos and a lot of the time I agree with you, but some of your criticism here seems to isolated. After all you are correct about the major emotional goal, but there’s another plot every bit as important. The Gods hunting Kratos and Atreus. Right after the funeral and failed hunting trip Balder arrives at the house and sets up the inciting action for that thread. It’s also important to realize what series this is, it’s God of War, and this trilogy is Fey’s revenge. She marked the trees that she wanted cut down, the ones protecting their corner of the woods from anyone else. She actually masterminded the whole thing. Once you cut them down Odin can find you, when he does it sets events in motion that lead to everything in the game. You are actually sent to find Mimir, even though you never know that’s what you’re doing. Similarly, Fey knew you’d encounter the Black Breathe. All those climbing markers you’ve been seeing, they’ve all been placed there by her. She’s been playing the Gods against each other, including you and Atreus. When you consider how that recontextualizes the entire experience it’s clear that those things aren’t the game being a video game, it’s the greater story being explored, and without the player realizing it. Even things like Niflhiem are actually relevant background work and relevant to Sindri and his story arc. It’s not a case of one goal being stretched as much as several goals overlapping, and the bad guys having planned for that eventuality
That's a really good point! Admittedly, it's not what I really focused on while playing the game, so I missed some of the more subtle points as a casual player. Interesting lens to view it through. ~ Tim
The destruction of the portal to Jotunheim can be interpreted as a metaphor for the frailty of Kratos and Atreus' relationship. At this point, they're nowhere near to be in tune with each other. They're not yet "worthy" to complete their journey, and their kinship in front of the open portal is fake, only a facade. Kratos destroying the portal and Atreus betraying him shows that their relationship was unstable and broke at the slightest bump on the road. This scene, and more precisely the fall that comes right after it, was particularly powerful to me. The adult fear of having your child taken away from you, with the tense music to hammer the point in... Not to mention that Kratos' jump mirrors his attempt at suicide in the very first game, when he "cast himself from the highest mountain in all of Greece". In the original God of War, Kratos jumped because he had lost all hope, but here he jumps to save what is probably his last glimmer of hope.
Damn, didn't even thought of that. I always imagine a possible scenario in my head with a (let's face it, eventual) sequel would be Kratos and *Loki*, on top of a cliff, Kratos lamenting to him how he tried to kill himself. Screw all the other deities and religion-stuff, *that's* the kind of shit I want to see in the sequel.
@@Kaikaifilu1994 The sequel will probably deal with Odin tricking Loki into being his blood brother and Kratos telling him about how long ago he had a similar relationship with a god and how that subsequently led to the death of his family by his own hands. I say this because Loki's journey seems to directly mirror Kratos' in the original games, where Kratos would have begun a revenge for what his father had done, Loki sees his father redeemed and actively helping him do better. Where Kratos would have gone of the deep end with rage Loki sees himself be reeled in by his father and thought how to control the rage and use it to his advantage. The only difference between Kratos' story and Loki's is that Loki has a father with and not just any father a father that is there to guide him and also a father who is willing to be better for his son, something Kratos never had. Had Zeus interviened when Ares tricked Kratos, had he shown compassion to his son when he needed to, the story of the original trilogy would have been way different and I think that. This sequel to the original story really does feel like a telling of what Kratos' life would have been like had he had a good father. Anyways that's how I feel that the stories of son and father mirror each other.
I always found it odd that a big part of Kratos' arc was being honest with his son of who he was,all the wrong that he's done and that it ends with him saying " I have nothing left to hide". However that's not true at all, Kratos still has one shameful secret that he has yet to divulge: the murder of his wife and daughter. Barlog and the rest of the team were so detailed in Krato's shameful past that I was surprised that their murder wasn't revealed in Hel instead of Zeus since Kratos never even cared for his father for being an absentee father and imprisoning his brother Demos ( not to mention cursing his mother that turned her into a monster that tried to kill her own son ). Barlog and the team were so meticulous that this can't be an oversight. I'm thinking they'll hold onto this for the sequel and use it as one last potential divide between Kratos and Atreus, one last hidden truth that his son just cannot take.
I will say that the patricide was more directly relevant to the plot, since a good deal of the story is about not repeating the mistakes of the past, and not following in footsteps. Currently one of the ways Atreus could’ve followed in Kratos’ footsteps would be to kill his father. Not sure if that made sense; I have a tendency to ramble rather un-cohesively.
@@Chill-Meister700 yeah with the " the cicle ends here" mirroring when zeus "killed" kratos . Patricide is important . Before even time cronos killed uranus the creator of the infinite cosmos, cronos attempted to prevent zeus from committing patricide yet that failed and zeus beat cronos , and finalky kratos beat zeus . Now we have atreus , what will he do . People don't ubderstand how jratos had nothing from the start , he is 100% the same in the new game as in the old ones character wise , just now he has someone that he loves , tho with all the trauma he can't show that as much as he did with caliope . Hope his daughter is still doing well. They wanna save some stuff for the future obvs .
I think the reason that Kratos's murder of his previous mortal family isn't brought up in this game, especially in the context of Kratos revealing his shameful actions, is that he didn't *choose* to murder his wife and daughter. Ares *tricked* him into murdering them. Every other life Kratos takes, is his to own; but those two deaths were Ares's. If anything, Atrues learning what happened might help shed more light on just why Kratos hates gods with such passion.
A few years ago, my brother and I went on a multi-day hike in the Sierra Nevada mountains to scatter our grandfather's ashes there at various locations along the trails he loved. This game really hit me hard, most of all at the end when they finally scatter the ashes. It reminded me of a particular moment when we stood in a mountain saddle and did the same. Also, those grapple combat controls were absolute fucking *jank,* it's not just you.
An interesting point about the retrieval of the Blades of Chaos. The combos for them are identical to the old games. At this point in the game, you've gotten used to the Leviathan Axe, so as you pick up the weapons of the past you feel as the player like "Okay, let's see if I remember how to do this". This is an additional layer to an already amazing scene.
I reckon there's also a lot of interesting stuff to talk about in regards to masculinity and the deconstruction and rebuilding of masculinity as seen through kratos
I don't think it represents so much a deconstruction of Kratos' masculinity, rather I think it's more a reconciliation between the masculine and feminine aspects of his personality from a symbolic perspective. So if you wanted to get jungian I guess you could say he integrates his anima.
@@andyp257 I mean I think that you could absolutely view the original games as a deconstruction of a toxic masculinity - whether that was intended or not - and the new game as a reconstruction of a healthier masculinity. Im not sure but I feel like Cory balrog has said or suggested as much himself in some interview or other. Idk it's just how I kinda took it.
I think that Cory’s own growth as a person (having become a father since earlier GoW titles) is reflected in Kratos himself striving to be more conscientious and mature, especially with wanting to set an example for Atreus. An argument can also be made comparing the difference in how Kratos approaches with his son as opposed to how doting he was with his daughter, Calliope as we saw in the older games - notably “Chains of Olympus”.
Yes it was so amazing to have the blades back but something I feel people keep forgetting or just didn't notice. When kratos unearthed them I felt myself wanting to cry with both joy and grief. Joy because my boys are back grief because his curse his back. He hates the blades every time he tries to get rid if them they find their way back to him. He killed his wife and daughter with these wary blades, everything that went wrong in his life started with these blades. He was finally moving on. Just when it seemed like he could live his life away from it all like always they find a way back into his hands. The shivers and the conflicting emotions were so amazing. I've never seen anyone talk about this it makes me feel like I'm the only one and that I might have misunderstood kratos...
My friend and I talked about that scene extensively when we first played through the game it is by far my favorite scene in the entire franchise. Not just because of what they represent for both players and kratos by that point it the game but what the action itself shows and what they show that they have partially represented and kinda now fully represent. Those blades as much as they have been a curse for Kratos they have been his only hope and one of the things that made him a monster. It was with those blades that he swore revenge on olympus and it was those blades that brought that revenge about. Without those blades Kratos didn't really stand a chance at revenge nor would he have ever sworn it. Now they come back at his lowest point once again to both remind him of the monster he once was and in many ways still is and to precent themselves as his only hope at saving his son. The scene also shows how he still willing to be a monster to protect his son and how those blades are much more to him than what they represent as in many ways the blades are him and he is the blades. Without him the blades have no meaning or use and like I said before the blades are his only hope. In the end he is a monster but like he said to Athena he is no longer somebody else's monster he is now his own monster and by proxy (due to being the blades themselves) his own hope. Anyways this really ties into how in the 3rd game he becomes the keeper of hope due to opening pandoras box.
Man playing this video game by myself after school while waiting for my mom and dad to come home really hit different on my first playthrough. When I finished the game I gave my dad a big old hug lol, made me appreciate my parents so much more
OK in regards to the part of Tyr's temple being hollow. You're absolutely wrong. Were you not paying attention during that scene? When Kratos opens that wine cask, his daughter's flute theme plays. Showing that he's reflecting on his past family and feeling nostalgic, before it transitions to the ominous music of the old games when he sees the vase. It's amazing audible story telling. Plus, when Mimir talks about Tyr in his temple, it plays a key role in Atreus's finding his equilibrium and humility.
the subtle nod to issues related to masculinity and mental health that is a father hiding forearm scarrs being the direct cause of his son's illness is just... fenomenal storytelling
24:00-24:46 I don't really mind. I'm going to scatter ashes. The narrative is just getting to know the head and doing things with the boy along with the changing mood of the boy and how kratos reacts to that. Each step was to scatter the ashes and see more development of dad and boy. Knowing that made me feel like there was progression. I can see how you would want more from the story because this adventure is simple and cuts off were it's just getting better but as faw as progress gose I felt it.
I disagree. Firstly, there is urgency to their quest. Since their protection is gone, Asguard is starting to make their move and Kratos is worried that the more time they waste, the more they risk getting hurt. Secondly some sequences just take the piss out of the story. Like being at the temple, climbing a section of the mountain only to find it blocked with mist, needing to go back to the temple to go to Alfein to get the light, then going back to the mountain to clear the mist in 2 proactrated sequences. It was boring and hurt the pacing
@@FraserSouris What about them spreding the ashes of a love one that will stop them from getting hurt? There is no real time limit to this. If they don't do it then .... nothing happens. It's at there own pacing. And the parts you say take the piss out of the story really just makes the story longer and opens you to more moment of character relationship development between mostly boy and dad. Witch in turn makes the development earned when the conclusion is finally having a better understanding of each other and spreading the ashes. It's the journey you was supposed to like not the goal post. I think Anyway. At least that's why I don't mind the excuses to keep it going. And really the part about the first mountain not bey THE mountain actually feeds into the story to make it better by alluding to new information about a dead character who we only hear about and never see. Edited: just fixing some sentences
@@FraserSouris Oh but about it being boring to you.......idk. it a small bit of the game. After your done clearing the mist that's it. You don't haft to do it again. And going to another worli and fighting enemies there.......how is that boring. You fight for the hole game. What makes this different? Is it just the frustration of something simple needing to many steps and having a lot of caveats to get done? Again I was focusing on kratos and the boy seeing how that was the real goal and meat of the games story. So....I just never felt of pacing... Except for those times I got lost on the maps and couldn't find out were I was going. Still don't know if that's a me problem or the map is hard to read.
Great stuff. I really connected with the side quest problem, because for me, all of these sub versions from the story gave focus to the true end game (kratos and atreus's relationship growing) and gave vital time and context to that growth. So I can kind of see it from both sides. Excellent video. Ever heard of horizon: zero dawn?????? 👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀
I would argue that the"sidequest" problem isn't a problem at all, but the POINT. Yes, Kratos and Atreus are on a mission to get to Jotunheim, but this is one of those "journey over destination" stories. All the detours from the main quest serve the purpose of exploring different aspects of their relationship, putting them to the test, and ultimately teach them how to be father and son. Getting to Jotunheim feels good not because we overcome the obstacles and get there, but because Kratos and Atreus go TOGETHER, they have grown and changed throughout the story.
Wait, wouldn't Atreus have still gotten sick even if Kratos had told him he was a god? I mean he was a giant and NO ONE knew. Wouldn't that have resulted in some sort of physiological identity crisis illness as well? The game never actually states that he thinks he's human, but he was kept in the dark on BOTH halves of his heritage. Not just the Olympian side.
it only happens to gods, and as shallowly as i can put it it’s basically god puberty but because atreus has no idea what’s happening to him it manifests as a sickness, giants arent gods
In the story, mimir mentions that the sickness sometimes happens in mortals, but a God believing himself mortal was never seen before. Jotum are still mortal and not God. Atreus believes himself to be a mortal and not a God so he should heal after believing himself being a god
Probably not, because from how I understood the sickness, it was about "thinking himself limited, when he wasn't", since that's how it seems to be spoken about, and telling Atreus seems to be all that was needed, or, put another way, Atreus thought himself a weak mortal, when he actually had much more to who and what he was, that he was unconsciously suppressing due to thinking he was mortal, thus making his own nature work against him. Think like an Obscurial from _Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them_ but out of ignorance rather than conscious rejection. If Atreus had known he was a god, he would've probably awakened his Jotnar abilities properly, but assumed they were just more God powers, but still used them, so he would've been fine. Though, I would speculate that having a whole other supernatural nature in him might've made it _worse_ than if Faye had been mortal instead of a Giant.
My God, this was absolutely phenomenal. Now I'm sitting here with tears rolling down my cheeks and I don't know why. I'm so excited for the next game!!
I think my favorite thing about this game is that even when it contradicts Norse mythology, it’s clear that those contradictions are done intentionally and not out of ignorance.
Great video, I really like this video. I would like to mention that I have a slight disagreement with how you presented the 'side quest problem.' Perhaps I blinked and the section, is mostly premised on the story elements and omitting any game play progression. Admittedly that's your area of interest so no real blame. I would like to see more like this, even in a shorter form. Snippets of other stuff you care about.
I think he referred to the main quest being continually deviated as "sideways progression" and did not intend to use sidequest as most gamers would use it. I too thought he was going to talk about the Valkyries (spelled that right i hope), and other side plots and the dissonance side quests often provide in the narrative structure of games (although GoW is not particularly guilty of this specific sin, as the stakes of the main quest are quite low and Kratos makes mention of improving their equipment to make the journey possible)
Ugh! Not only did you include one of my other favorite writing focused channels but you actually made me love this game even more than I already did. Your critiques we're well founded and valid - and I honestly learned a lot. Definitely one of my favorite videos from you.
I love theorizing on the war of Alfheim. The light elves recognize the spiritual power of the light, while the dark elves recognize the material power. You think the light elves would be the ones in the right, and originally they were, but over time they became obsessed with spirituality and forgot about the real world altogether. The leaders abandon their people to spend all their time basking in the light. Then the dark elves rose up, took down the light elves, and shut out the light, using it for greater benefit. They abandon the spirit world in order to embrace the real one.
I like your bit on the pacing, artificially adding prerequisites to goals. How do you feel, then, about how Breath of the Wild was structured? You could, technically, go after the last boss immediately after the "tutorial" bit.
Alexander Beilby I haven’t finished Botw, but I have to say I love the way the game is structured. To me, it felt like the world was a place to explore rather than having to explore to get further in the story. Additionally, the option to go straight to the heart of the problem was always there but didn’t feel like an option because I always knew I was too weak to do it. The progression in the game didn’t feel arbitrarily tacked on to a story, rather it was generated by my own decision to make sure I was powerful enough to do what needs done
Breath of the Wild was essentially structured around freedom and exploration, which it did beautifully. The side quests, and the main dungeons struggled slightly in parts as a result of this. Great game regardless.
yea but in botw the entire idea is to explore as much as possible in order to achieve that end goal. the entire game is basically training and preparation for that final battle rather than having the story be interrupted as the goal gets further and further away
@@merrittanimation7721 there is a lot of lore to dark souls/Sekiro/Bloodborne, I've Never played the games but i do know that the lore is expansive and i would love to see Tim's take on it from a story telling perspective.
This would depend on his apptitude to even playing since many people steer from the souls for being infamously difficult, rewarding but also rough to both play and follow along. Not sure if he'd be willing to sit down and go through all 3 while noting down the story. The only other option is just purely looking up everything and just not having a connection to it both as a player and audience member.
God of War is one of my favourite games of recent years, so I really enjoyed this critique. Also I'm a big mythology nerd as well so major props for the mythology section.
Do a world building video on the game Hollow Knight. The amount of lore in that game is staggering (and the game itself is amazing. Joseph Anderson himself made two videos on it)
I’d be excited to see more analysis of other games like Horizon Zero Dawn or The Last of Us! You have such lovely insight to storytelling and I love seeing it done with games
the argument about the obstacles neglects the fact that each trial to get said items fleshes out the world hints at storylines for the next game and is entirely significant to the lore and character arcs of Kratos and Atreus
Doesn't kratos only finds out faye was from jotunhiem after meeting mimir? So it would make sense that he didn't know that she wanted them to go to jotunhiem.
I would like to put forth the argument that all of the back and forth with the various conditionals is narratively engaging as it directly shows the lengths that Tyr went to to hide the Realm of the Giants from Odin, making it nearly impossible to access and Odin's paranoia that some one would challenge him that he would place his own roadblocks to prevent anyone from ever finding out what he is actually doing.
My takeaway: in any narrative, especially a game, if you're going to change the pace, have a story reason to do so. Other cool points too, but ones that are touched on in other videos or [more rarely] i've intuitively picked up on from consuming well written content
Writing this comment at 27:15. Right after some of your complaints about the pacing. Specifically when Kratos destroyed the gate to Jotunheim. This was one of my favorite moments story wise of the entire game. Reasons being Kratos was desperate. We can tell because he told Atreus specifically 'you can get lost in your anger, you must learn to harness it' or he would suffer consequences. And here we see Kratos falling into a similar trap because he was ambushed by one of the only enemies he has yet to learn how to kill. After we go hunting with Atreus at the start of the game We spent 5-10 minutes just fighting this dude (Baldur) and it seems like no matter how much Kratos throws at him he won't die. He *can't* die. And that *frightens* Kratos. So much so he has to go to extreme measures to at least subdue him to keep his son safe. The same son who is slipping further away, acting ever more cold and 'Godlike' while Kratos is acting more and more 'human-like' or mortal. Where as the story began with them in the reverse. So many small painstaking details are happening at once and I feel like the pace of the story allowed for all of those narrative threads to breathe, that includes each "side quest" and at this moment where Kratos and Atreus are ambushed so many of these narrative beats come to a head. I get the frustration with feeling like the game is just meandering but it's doing it for a reason, for so many reasons, and getting hung up on the end goal will blind you to those things. Which is part of what Faye was trying to convey to Kratos and Atreus in the first place. It's not about the goal but the journey. TLDR: I respectfully disagree, I think the game's pace is absolutely perfect. Or at the very least, as good as it can be.
KRATOS' "Leviathan Axe" & "Gauntlet w/Retractable Shield" are two of my favorite weapons/tools in fiction. I want a technological modern shield that can expand/retract like that. The Leviathan Axe's "ICE JOTUN" powerset is badaas
Kratos: "My son and I just went to the highest mountain to spread my wife's ashes." Stranger: "My condolences for your loss. Glad to see you and your son had a safe and swift journey." Kratos: "Yes..."
Ever since the game came out, I've seen dozens of videos talking about why it's so good. But you, along with Red and Blue, have created, by far, the most interesting and engaging one I've yet seen. Thank you so much to all of you for having made it :)
Hmm, just off the bat before the video starts, I know that the game did to mythology what the originals did to greek mythology, which is to say, take the spirit of it and ignore all the details. I mean, I love it, but it's in line with the Thor Ragnarok philosophy of myth. I particularly loved this game because of the father/son relationship, which I never really got to experience as a kid, and it was really fulfilling to see Kratos' rage fueled vision of a particular kind of masculinity, it's also really nice to see Kratos become rounder as he grows, it gives me hope for my own identity, not only as a man, but as an incredibly flawed person. It is heartening in general to see dad characters not only in a positive light, but in a redemptive light too, a role that requires learning and changing, not pure stoicism. I love its simplicity too, my only real critique of the game is that it feels pretty short. I'll come back after the video is done and see if I was on the same page :P Huh, I had no idea about Laufey's husband, that's really cool! Also, I do remember feeling cheated when Kratos and Baldur destroyed the gate, I think the pacing criticism is a good one which I totally overlooked. I only really enjoyed the story as narrative the first and maybe second time through, but well over half of my time with the game was just playing for the sake of the joy of the playing. So I kind of forgot the narrative hiccups, since my engagement was primarily different than my first playthrough. It's kind of the nature of the medium, and I think you're right, they could be tighter, the sidequest structure could be tightened up to the story. Aelfheim is definitely the weakest part of the game for me, as narrative and gameplay, so I'm with you there. I pin that in particular on development restrictions... aelfheim being essentially a long hallway you walk down, and then walk back through, seems contrived on a level the rest of the game didn't. Still a legit ciriticism though. I do wish, in general, that there were more npcs. The ones we got were great, but we needed more interaction between the settings and the arc, which as you said, would be heightened by giving us an emotional hook for our presence there, as opposed to somewhere else. Fuck me though, when GoW '18 does tie setting and character together, it really nails it. The Blades of Chaos retrieval is indeed fantastic, and I loved it so much. I rarely have such a physiological reaction to media, but when we hear his old theme, as unwraps the blades, I was shivering. Gooseflesh, tears. I also get where you're coming from, where Kratos doesn't really have a redemptive arc for his own sake... which is honestly something I identify with. I've had a really shitty life, and at the end of the day, running away is really the only thing you can do, at a certain point. Running from my abusive family, abusive friend circles, abusive work, there's a point at which you just can't fix things. You have to start again, and like Kratos says, do better. That's kind of the philosophy that has rescued me from nearly a decade of suicidality. I felt Kratos' journey to be strong enough to really, earnestly start again, deeply, in a way I rarely get with typical redemptive arcs. It's a similar experience I've had reading the Stormlight Archive, following Dalinar's unfolding arc. You can't fix anything... it's about the next step, and making sure that one is the right one. Anyways... I loved the video Tim! and it was great to hear OSP too, I loved their playthrough of GoW '18! Thanks, guys :)
The fight on the back of the dragon was frustrating and felt awkward, but that awkwardness also felt appropriate given the context. Kratos's perspective was turned upside-down, both literally and metaphorically. In the literal sense, he has no proper footing on the back of the dragon. When the dragon is gaining altitude, he's literally upside-down and having to fight Baldur at the same time. Metaphorically, Kratos has lost control of Atreus to the Spartan Rage and risks repeating the same cycle of patricide that ran in his family (Zeus killing Cronus, Kratos killing Zeus).
If we're gonna call 1917 and death stranding masterpieces than God of war is most definitely a full blown masterpiece, not just almost. Because I don't think either of those were more than 'great', at best. In fact personally I'd rate them lower.
not sure about 1917 but certainly agree with death stranding, it was in my eyes a complete failure, why, because i found the difference between a functioning (if bat shit confusing) story and its gameplay just so jarring that it lost all meaning. and gameplay includes controls and just ui in general which was clunky and furstrating. it failed because the components it had failed to work together and instead one part took off from the other
GOW isn't a masteripece. It's story has gaps like Atreus becoming a dick. Its camera hurts the experience. Its combat system, open world, progression and navigation are lacklustre
I'm so happy you shouted out my boy Joeseph Anderson, he's my favorite TH-camr (sorry, you're a close second) and I don't think he gets enough exposure or recognition.
Opening the hidden chambers is a "MINOR PART OF THE GAME" WTF?! It´s not all about Story, GoW REALLLY shines when we are talking about the combat, THAT´S the reason why people finish the game over and over and over again. And the valkyries are a MAJOR part of that, especially Sigrun is one of the best boss battles in video game history. Receiving the chisel is always one the achievements you are looking most foward to during the playthrough, because that´s the moment when you have the pleasure to finally visit the valkyries again.
32:37 IF you hold off on the side quests and items here until you get Mimir, he GIVES you the narrative that you crave, BUT we set in motion grave consequences to Elfheim, I won't spoil them here, play on new game + and get Mimir first, then do all the collecting/sidequests. oh boy.
What exactly are the limitations of games that you’re mentioning? As far as I can think of, it seems that games offer the least limitations of any medium
I think everything that happened in Alpheim was up to player to figure before they really dive deep once Kratos and Atreus return to to that realm. It was theorized that the elves fight over the light because the light holds the souls of those who have passed and because Kratos and Atreus stop kill the dark elves too many are dying and not enough are being judged to go either Hell or Valhalla and so Helheim becomes over run contributing to Ragnorock.
Now, can we Imagine the guy with the Flaming sword is not Syrtyr but actually Kratos? We can get a lot of recognition if we canonise the Muspelheim trials
His elemental motif is Fire, he routinely is the death of worlds and Gods alike, he’s referred to as Farbauti by the Giants which means Cruel Striker, and Kratos means Strength. He suits all the descriptions of a flaming sword that will destroy the Gods and burn away the old world. Problem is that Kratos doesn’t want to be that guy anymore and if the trailer for the new game is any indication Atreus is more interested in killing the Gods than Kratos.
Great video - however my biggest point of counter for the Sidequest Problem is that, IMO, all the detours and setbacks felt true to the 'road trip with a parent' narrative. I found myself really appreciating the quiet moments in the canoe, or discovering a weird island with its own little story to tell; it all felt like it was part of the trip me and my boy were taking together. Seeing the subtle ways Kratos is trying to imprint humanity, leadership, and a sense of responsibility onto Atreus really informed the revelation of his godhood (whether or not you knew he was Loki before playing). Anyways, TLDR: the father/son dynamic was enhanced by all of the sidequesting in line with parental roadtrip tropes
Hello, Hello Future Me, I love ur channel and everything that you have done along with Overly Sarcastic Productions - little shoutout to them - but I was wondering if you could do something over character arcs over the course of a trilogy as I have a book that I have been working on that will eventually have a character that will be in a trilogy but I didn't know how to work on his/her character arc without it seeming like a drag over the course of three books Is it possible to have an overall arc for the trilogy but sub arcs for each singular book? Just needing a little suggestions P. S. Sorry for the long message P. P. S. Love the constant Avatar references - don't light up -
Quick note on plot progression and Side quests. I get why sideways progression feels arbitrary and slow, but as a potential thematic plus to the god of war team, that is actually what climbing a mountain feels like. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve came to the summit of a mountain only to realize that there are still more switchbacks to trek before the day is done. Switchbacks are a lot like side quests narratively.
I haven't read all of the history of fiction, but I think Speaker for the Dead is an even better redemption story than Zuko's, and Ender REALLY did something that needed redemption
Re: the side quest problem, while frustrating to play, that seems very, VERY on theme for Kratos. There's always a new obstacle and everyone is jerking you around, that's just life for a Spartan...
Re: redemption arc, i think it's effective that Kratos doesn't get "redeemed" for the first 3 games because, (hot take incoming) he wasn't wrong! He was strictly right either, but certainly not wrong. He is, however, scarred by those experiences, thus not seeking redemption, but.... something else. He WAS wrong, hiding those scars from the boy, and that was A+ redemption material
God of Boy. (I'm sorry, I watched Jacksepticeye's play through 🤦♂️) This is a really good and well rounded critique. I really enjoyed watching this. Also I like these longer videos, I feel like you're able to say exactly what you think and mean more and aren't rushed for time constraints. I realize you can't do these all the time but they're a treat when you can :) Edit: Also I'm such a fan of Christopher Judge in this, he really nailed Kratos.
Yeah that sucked and felt contrived. Joseph Anderson really went into a good amount of depth about that, and I really wouldn't have much more to say than "it felt contrived and forced and the dialogue was bad". - Tim
AngelofGrace96 Actually it makes sense why Atreus started to act the way he did, you see his behavior is partially because Kratos STILL refuses to divulge important information from his past and is rather hands off as a parent so Atreus is left to only interpret what his father is saying and that causes communication issues. Case in point when Kratos said “you must be better than me” due to his lack of knowledge regarding Kratos’ bloodstained past he interpreted that as meaning he must be more like him, basically more ferocious, arrogant, violent and reckless, essentially he thinks Kratos wants him to be more like him. It’s actually understandable due to how young Atreus is and how ignorant he is regarding the context of his father’s words, it’s really a good example of why communication is important in these types of relationships, what you say can easily be misinterpreted by your child if you aren’t clear in your wording.
Ryan Carson yeah in order for it to really work in my opinion they would have had to build it up more. Even it is somewhat justified (narratively speaking), it is till very rushed
See I think DMC 3 is a better game but not because of its story because story in DMC games is just an excuse to have fun shit happen, it doesn't need to be anything more and thats perfect. DMC 3 Has better combat and moment to moment gameplay that isn't dragged down by any delusion of grandeur, so it can focus all its attention on refining one of the best combat systems ever put in a game. That alone makes it better than GOD PS4.
@@chazzergamer it's easy to undersell the story of the game because it's presented in an extremely unapologetic and bombastic way, and fun is still the main goal. but you don't have to dig very deep before finding a wonderful story on the sins of the father and the nature of inheritance of responsibility, gathered together with a mythologically fitting tale of two brothers that have a perverse appreciation for the rivalry that is tearing the world down around them. I think people inherently assuming the qualities of a story based on the tone is the exact problem that gives us games like GOW that is utterly insecure about its own medium and need to constantly remind the audience of it's "maturity" and "importance" through surface element cues. I'll give you that DMC 1,2 and 4 is a bit on the lighter in term of story side but damn does 3 and 5 bring the thunder. and even have so much stronger understanding of its filmatic elements, utilising classic cutting, camerawork and dialogue in a cutscenes in such an effective and poignant way, but it's all in the service of the larger experience wich is why it's so confident in it's bravado and doesn't feel the need to bring attention to its insane level of craft. only held back by it's technological limitations of the ps2, all but removed when 5 popped around. so yes, the story is an excuse to have fun, it's bombastic, childish and camp as all hell in its presentation, but it's also very driven, confident, unique, poignant and so fantastically not ashamed of what it is.
filmcut Your comments on GOW being insecure is pretty much exactly what I’ve said in a comment on this very video and pretty much my opinion of the game. But I still don’t think DMC story is as deep as some fans say it is nor do I think it needs to even be an argument, ironically it mirrors the kind of insecurity I see in GOW. DMC isn’t a bad story but it’s not what I’d consider a draw, it’s the characters and their chemistry that does that. It’s like the first Avengers film, the story works but it isn’t why you are there, it’s the characters chemistry and the great spectacle of the film. The spectacle of DMC cannot be overstated especially in 3 which is my personal favourite, it’s tone and charisma is enough to justify the investment in the writing for me anyway, with the combat being where the artistic value comes in.
@@chazzergameri don't disagree with the things stated where the games lay, but i'm gonna have to get some solid specifics on what exactly doesn't make the story as "deep" as some claim it to be. Because how it weaves every charakter's personal arc into a larger theme, and then comments on that theme in a larger context works extremely well, and story beats such as dante jumping off the tower in a selfdestructive fit of rage is such a fantastic moment. Beyond just spectacle. Granted, such things as stilted dialogue can ruin such an experience for one but i don't think that should imedietly diminish the things of substance that is present
filmcut I haven’t played the games in years so I can’t bring out analytical points out from nowhere, and while I did play 5 recently a lot of that games qualities in the story is it’s theme of passing the torch and letting go of the past which only really hit when you have the past games fresh in the mind. All I can say that when I was playing the games I didn’t feel invested in the story through a combination of things, stakes (because nearly all the characters are practically indestructible and know it) odd pacing (again for writing, gameplay wise it has great pacing) and simplistic writing. Again while these are flaws, they are flaws I don’t think hold any value in the context of the game. It’s like saying Mario has a bad story, it’s correct but to what end? Again I’m not the biggest DMC fan so I probably can’t appreciate its story like others can but I do admire its commitment to staying a game in an industry that doesn’t want to make games anymore, just soulless loot box cash grabs and interactive movies. ...great now I’ve bummed myself out.
I’m glad that you referenced Joseph Anderson’s critique because it set my mind at ease to know that you weren’t just going to repeat some of the criticisms he made.
Just want to add, on the topic of video game script length being a limitation it's worth noting that games like the new GoW, The Last of Us, and the like are on the shorter end of the spectrum as far as games go. They focus on delivering a more cinematic experience, both in presentation and pacing, resulting in a much less lengthy script. On the other end of the spectrum, there are RPGs that can maintain a relatively dense story-to-gameplay ratio for lengths extending into triple digit hours. Games also have the ability to organically house encyclopedias/compendiums to further flesh out the world/story without bogging down the player. Excellent examples of this are the Star Ocean and God Eater series, who dedicate entire in-game databases to such things. And of course, I'd be remiss not to mention the Soulsbornes and their item descriptions.
Great video, still watching as I'm writing this, but I want to point out that comparing word count of script to that of a book is NOT a great idea, those are incomparable. The game is full of of visual elements and mechanics/magic laws/enemy designs/etc that would need to be described in a book, but are absent in a script. Though if we go for dialogue only it would be acceptable comparison, I suppose.
Nothing like having three of the best people on TH-cam going at a great story, world and game. And I am so upset with myself that I didn’t see this until right now
![On Writing: Dark Lords! [ Sauron | White Witch | Voldemort ]](/img/n.gif)
Fantastic video! Thanks for letting us swing by to rave about our favorite Dad of Boy of God of War!
-R&B
Overly Sarcastic Productions What's this? A collab between two of my favorite You tubers?! I must be In heaven!
Quoting Dante here... I'm your biggest fan!
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
Really Red, no signs of Hel. We don't see her but we have an enemy called Helson and they do talk about Hel and her influence during the game (specifically that the visions in helheim are sent by her if I remember correctly.
Please cover the dynamics of power and the fear it causes. Wizards vs muggles, mutants vs humans, gods and mortals, benders vs non benders.
What I love about that line, “the cycle ends here,” Kratos is quoting Zeus. A real sign of Kratos’ story returning to a very critical point in his life.
and both attempt to do it in very different ways
It also adds in the fact that Kratos knows that killing one God is not the end but the beginning of that vicious cycle. I think it was smart to have Baldur as the games antagonist (not villain, just antagonist) because he acts as a mirror for Kratos. Like Kratos, Baldur is someone who was manipulated and used by the Gods. Mainly his mother Freya, who made him immune to all sense of feelings. He just wants to be set free from that curse, in which he ultimately does and seeks to take revenge on the one who placed the curse upon him. Just as Ares did to Kratos (although the difference is that Kratos willingly made the deal, while Baldur did not). A take on the final fight is basically Baldur wanting to feel something. He comments in the first fight that he believed Kratos of all people would make him feel something. So his objective in that final fight was not to kill Kratos, but to finally feel something. He even says that Kratos could've just walked away and let him have his revenge on the God that wronged him. However Kratos has first hand experience of where that rabbit hole would led and the consequences that will follow. Not jus the physical (as we saw in GoW 3) but the emotional and physiological consequences as well.
I almost forgot what channel I was watching and then of course: "Zuko is the best redemption arc ever written in the history of fiction." Oh yeah.
Which is weird because Zuko never did anything wrong to have a redemption. He was just a bit misguided.
He attacked the Southern Water Tribe, burned down Kyoshi Village, kidnapped Katara with a band of pirates… he did a _lot_ wrong.
@@Pablo360able Paid mercenaries to capture the avatar... also he sided with the people that almost killed the avatar and imprisoned his uncle...There was a lot of room for redemption.
@@Pablo360able he did a lot wrong, but I love Iroh's forgiving words, "I was afraid you had lost your way
@@Pablo360able Stole an Ostrich Horse from people who helped feed him, Lashing out at everyone around him even his own men who were the only ones he (a banished prince) had command over, Free the avatar (bad thing for going against his country by aiding the only threat that could stop them win the war) for his own personal benefit.
I always found that the “cringe” dialogue during Atreus’s power trip was supposed to be cringe inducing cause that’s the attitude we all had at that age and it was cringe worthy to everyone around us back then.
Perhaps.
*Or*, it's his own anger and frustration with both his parents (Kratos was the one lying, but Faye also was the one who kept the truth from coming out, regardless) for keeping his true lineage a secret after all these years sort-of manifesting itself into a kind of power-tripping the same way Kratos was during all the previous games, either that or Baldur's (although I thought I read somewhere that even Barlog was a little iffy on that, but that's the way I interpreted it, at least).
Atreus literally thought Kratos didn't want him exactly because he was so cold and distant with him in the first place.
*I would get pretty irrational and pissed-off, too* if I found out that one of my parents was lying to me because they didn't want to deal with their own problems.
Mark Brackney I’m not refuting that and I guess I never really thought about it and it’s probably true, with the writers probably looking at it from that point of view at some during development. But Atreus’s dialogue during that sequence after finding out the truth is pretty cringeworthy. And we were all pretty cringeworthy at that age when we thought we were all trying to be the coolest. And of course after finding out about being a god, Atreus’s tries to act like a cool god and it intentionally comes across as cringy. Plus we all did cringy stuff when we were angry as a kid so there’s that too.
@@spacetoastjam7656 And I can definitely remember all the “corny” dialogue Kratos said in the previous games, too.
You had a smug God complex when you were 12?
I can't relate to that
@@sociallyineptspider-man2366 It's not a God complex as much as it's just hubris in general. Every kid from 9 - 15 gets hubris, especially when you find out your parents are cool AF.
Tim: Makes a video about God of War
Also Tim: somehow fits Avatar in
I'm pretty sure that he's physically incapable of not mentioning Avatar in a video.
I said out loud "of course there's Avatar bit in the video!". Not that i'm complaining, but still
It's the best show ever tho
That’s like practically every late-night host forcing in at least one Trump joke nowadays.
Me, you, anyone: "[insert character] is looking for his/her redemption"
Tim with footage of Zuko: "DiD yOu SaY [[ R E D E M P T I O N ]] ?!?!?!?"
Something about the weapons meaning you did not mention, is that the two weapons kratos use, represent both his new and old mindset and ways:
--Blades of chaos: young kratos, chaining him like a prisoner of his own actions. As his rage, they burn everything they touch, they do damage fast and in a very wide are, not only the target, but anything remotely close to it, symbolizing all the collateral damage kratos have done in his quest for vengeance without even thinking about it. Anything attacked by them it burns into ashes.
--Leviathan axe: an ice weapon, just as kratos wants to be able to keep his cool and control himself. the axe is slower but more precisely just as kratos experience and age changed his combat style to be more focused, the weapon deals damage only to close targets (allowing him to not hurt atreus by mistake). Also being able to be thrown precisely to specific targets very accurately. This weapon doesn't consume his enemies, but leaves them frozen in place, allowing kratos the time to think if the enemies really need to be put down or can be shown mercy.
ok, that's awesome
Nice.
I wonder if the blades of exile will make a comeback and what they would represent.
And his unarmed strikes, symbolizing that he is the muscle wizard.
*I cast FIST!*
another thing i like about the axe and blades is as you said in the beginning. his blades are chained to him, almost saying that he can't really get rid of it, no matter how hard he tries.
even after all the pain he caused with them, he still keeps them. after all the hell both himself and thoose chain caused in greek, for both himself and others.
but with the axe he can literally throw it away, not really needing if necessary. he can just throw the axe away when meeting an enemy and then beat them with his fists. but he can also summon it back to his hand, whenever he DESIRES it. never permanently only giving him 1 option.
I feel like I need to add something to just how great the entire “retrieving the Blades of Chaos” scene/gameplay is. I feel like I’ve seen many people discuss this topic but I haven’t seen someone touch on it. Red and Blue come close here by talking about how it felt using the Blades to now down enemies just like the old games, giving a sense of catharsis. It did more than that, though.
The attack combos are all identical to the first games.
This was more than everything that’s discussed in this video: it’s also a love letter to the fans that have been here since the beginning. As soon as I was able to use the Blades, I began inputting combos I remember and each animation was exactly what I expected it to be. I knew how to use these weapons because I was the one who led Kratos to this story. I knew how the abilities I would unlock worked because they all tied in to the previous iterations. This scene wasn’t just Kratos getting his past weapons back; this was about ME getting MY past weapons back.
Idk who might read this since it’ll be buried by others, but I’ve been wanting to say this since I experienced that moment in the game. I hope anyone who does read this got to also experience that cathartic, nostalgic blast.
You hit the nail on the head man :)
Precisely
It was probably my favorite moment in the entire game sir. I completely feel you brother.
@Stellvia Hoenheim lmao ok boot licker. Just FYI most people with half a brain are AGAINST mobile games.
Sure the basic combos were, but everything about their versatility in their movesets in the other games isn't there.....it's a pale imitation of any of the other game's movesets
That said, it's the first moment it actually felt like a God of War game
Every time I hear Athena say: "You will always be a monster" I break down a little bit. A wonderfully delivered line and a fantastic response by Chris Judge.
So I had played the previous GoW games, I grew up with them. When I got the blades of Exile back, I LOST. MY. MIND.
That moment blew me away as well, and I think it's because I'd literally played through everything they represented, and I had actually felt detached from them in the new game because Kratos as a character was trying to move on, and in a weird way his new weapon (axe) felt like a representation of that in the gameplay "things are different now... Get used to it" so the return of the twin blades had such an impact on me emotionally.
these where the blades of chaos not exile. the very first one he got
I appreciate your correction but also bugger off haha
@@joelwybrew it's kinda funny how he got them when ever he tries to permanently get rid of them (such as throwing them into the ocean) they come back (a ship he's on crashes and when he washed ashore there they were)
@@vincegalila7211 he even makes an effort to never seeing them again by putting them under his house. The boy says hes not allowed to go under there in the beginning, probably for the same reason.
The reason video game scripts are shorter than books is because the environments, characters, character movements, objects, are all visually shown to you. Games typically don't narrate what the characters are thinking. In games, we mainly need to focus on dialogue. And the action scenes... well, those are up to the player.
While that's true, games like these have complex and detailed cut scenes which are explained in depth in the script.
~ Tim
@@HelloFutureMe In Game Development, there's a GDD (Game Design Doc) that's over 300 pages. Then there are smaller focused technical design docs that explain things like upgrades, the HUD, camera functions, controls, combat, enemies, etc... But most of these details are hashed out in long meetings and through iterations in production.
Anything you see in a game, aside from the cutscenes, has been redone about 10 times. When the cutscenes are farmed out to a specialized group, then the team sends out detailed screenplays. But the in game stuff is done by the core team. Look at Witcher 3. Have you noticed that Cutscene Yennifer is different than Gameplay Yennifer?
Or Keira Metz walks on her toes as if she was wearing shoes at one point, and her GWENT card / art is different from her final look?
@@HelloFutureMe This is not true. Kotor 2 had a story with dalogue as deep as a thousand page book. It can be done in the medium.
@@hunterghobadi1269 Wait what?
@@marshmallow3200 I mean you can have dialogue as part of the gameplay outside of cinematic cut scenes.
"They have a son named Atreus."
Um, excuse you, but his name is Boy.
Boi
BOI
*BOI*
boi
James Henderson i i
To be fair to jormungandr being in the story Norse myth runs on a circular timeline rather than a straight on. It's weird but within reason under Norse rules.
Well, it's circular as presented in this depiction of Norse mythology. Under the Prose and Poetic Eddas it doesn't make sense. Not that it's not still cool, though!
Not really, during Ragnarok, Thor cracks Jormangundr's skull with Mjolnir but it's last breath spits poison over him and they both die.
not realy, a circular timeeline would mean something like in futurama were they go back around to get to where they started. ragnarok si the end of the world, but the birth of a new one, it's not the same world with the same people and the same history, it's something new
@@tommerker8063 It's still circular, just not a flat 2d circle, it's more like a 3d spiral. It would be a perfect circle if time weren't a thing, but as time moves on so does the position of the circle, making it more resemble a slinky lol
@kshamwhizzle As long as it doesn't spell Maynard James Keenan, cuz as we all know, if that were the case it would be a perfect circle.
I personally didn't have problems with the pacing at. I thought the way their goal kept getting away from them help creating tension and higher stakes, and fitted into the "Mythological Epic" feel that the game had, kinda like the Odyssey
That's okay! :) A lot of people will feel different about it.
~ Tim
Yeah, same here, there was no problem with pacing since there was no urgency to their quest, they were just fulfilling a promise, no stakes, no world ending threat (like in Skyrim or similar games). It was literally by Feys design so that Kratos and Boy can bond and become father and son. So called side quests that are such a drag in other games are just more opportunity to savor the new combat engine and enjoy some Axe action and eventually the blades (oh man that moment when he uses them for the first time, I still get the chills).
@@SonOfSeth Atreus even regularly encourages the side Questing. He was always excited to take a break and go exploring. It was encouraged within the motivations of the characters.
@@hypersloth8139
And all that kratos teaches his son is The side quests is pretty much the meat of it.
"Don't talk to dead strangers boy."
"It could be a trap boy."
"This is how you gather boy."
"They want to survive by eating us boy so kill them so that we can live boy....gray morality does not equate pointless fights."
Man kratos is a tough loving dad.
I love it.
@@HelloFutureMe
It's the journey. Not the destination.
That might be what some people(and me) are are feeling.
You wanted "pay off"
But it was happening as you went threw the game and it's story.
All together not one big heartfelt moment to be a crunch for the hole.
Amazing video Tim! Would love to hear your thoughts on Red Dead Redemption 2 and Arthurs story
Yet to play it but I've heard amazing things. TLOU video is on my radar, though!
Ranton holy crap your comment only has 17 likes i guess not many people knew about this
aayy..Ranton!
RANTONI PEPPERONI IS HERE!!
Me hearing someone praising Christopher Judge's acting as Kratos: "Indeed."
Captain America: "I understood that reference"
Everytime I respond with Indeed, Teal'cs face fills my head LMAO
I would be super down to see a simmilar deep dive into Horizon: Zero Dawn. I think that game did a fantastic job of writing a story.
this. Horizon was probably my favorite game over the past decade.
I feel the game didn't. The game fails at "Show don't tell". The characters are mostly 1 dimensional
yeah one the best storys this.
Meh. Aloy is very ugly and un interesting protagonist.
Good game, but the story and characters are pretty shallow.
I'm fairly certain that the "death bird" in Helheim is actually the Nameless Eagle who sits atop Yggdrasil and is continually verbally sparring with Nidhoggr the serpent trapped beneath Yggdrasil's roots courtesy of the meddlesome squirrel Ratatoskr(who is a summon). If so, that implies that in God of War's version of Norse myth, Helheim, of all places, is at the (metaphorical) summit of the World Tree and therefore all the realms.
When I showed my brother(who is much more versed in Norse myth than me) the view from Helheim gate, he quickly made the same guess as to the bird's identity.
I've heard theories that the giant bird is actually Hraesvelgr, a giant that makes the winds when flapping his wings in Hel
Åå
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Åååäåå
Åäå
Å mår åååååå
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@@pauloperegrinau.8521 That theory is correct.
It's interesting the disparity between the beginning of the video and the middle where you start talking about the obstacles in the course of the game. IN the opening you describe the story as a "journey story", yet as you talk about obstacles the overarching narrative of the two characters learning to work together seems to diminish in importance. That's what all of those obstacles are. They're deviations from the main objective yes, but intentionally so. They exist to get in the way, to frustrate the relationship so that it can change and grow. This is best demonstrated with the light of Alfheim (one you found the most problematic). It forced the undercurrent of distrust and distance between the two characters to be brought out into the open. If every roadblock in the course of the journey was a shallow and simple problem it would lead to a shallow and simple narrative.
The plot doesn't move forward, true. But as you say, it's a very simple plot with a single goal. These deviations and redirections from that goal exist not to move the plot forward, but to move the *story* forward. Despite having only a single objective, the story is one that doesn't just chug along in a straight line but one that unfolds in all directions. It allows Kratos' story to develop, Atreus', Freya and Baldur's, the dwarves'. And all of it to support the greater narrative theme, generally of family but more specifically of being a parent.
He mentions that the issue isn't necessarily the deviations from the main plot themselves but the very thin narrative motivation for going on those deviations. Like he said it could've been solved by simply making detours into these worlds part of Laufey's final wishes.
The Light of Alfheim scene is great, he mentioned that himself, but it's weird that a good scene like that is placed in a section of the story that doesn't as a whole inform those story beats presented.
@@hiimchrisj But my impression was that it was? The black mist did not seem like a recent thing. Nor was the hidden gateway at the top of the mountain necessitating the Chisel. Laufey predicted their entire journey after all.,
*sees him post*
Me: yes!
*Sees that OverlySarcasticProduction is in it*
Me: OH HELL YEAH!
God of War has been one of my favorite video game franchises of all time. Partly because I am a mythology nerd. I remember playing this game and I was almost at the end and I was like "Where is Loki? How can you make a video game about Norse mythology without Loki?" And BOY was I in for a surprise. This has been the most satisfying plot twist I've ever seen.
I love your videos and a lot of the time I agree with you, but some of your criticism here seems to isolated. After all you are correct about the major emotional goal, but there’s another plot every bit as important. The Gods hunting Kratos and Atreus. Right after the funeral and failed hunting trip Balder arrives at the house and sets up the inciting action for that thread. It’s also important to realize what series this is, it’s God of War, and this trilogy is Fey’s revenge. She marked the trees that she wanted cut down, the ones protecting their corner of the woods from anyone else. She actually masterminded the whole thing. Once you cut them down Odin can find you, when he does it sets events in motion that lead to everything in the game. You are actually sent to find Mimir, even though you never know that’s what you’re doing. Similarly, Fey knew you’d encounter the Black Breathe. All those climbing markers you’ve been seeing, they’ve all been placed there by her. She’s been playing the Gods against each other, including you and Atreus. When you consider how that recontextualizes the entire experience it’s clear that those things aren’t the game being a video game, it’s the greater story being explored, and without the player realizing it. Even things like Niflhiem are actually relevant background work and relevant to Sindri and his story arc. It’s not a case of one goal being stretched as much as several goals overlapping, and the bad guys having planned for that eventuality
That's a really good point! Admittedly, it's not what I really focused on while playing the game, so I missed some of the more subtle points as a casual player. Interesting lens to view it through.
~ Tim
The destruction of the portal to Jotunheim can be interpreted as a metaphor for the frailty of Kratos and Atreus' relationship. At this point, they're nowhere near to be in tune with each other. They're not yet "worthy" to complete their journey, and their kinship in front of the open portal is fake, only a facade. Kratos destroying the portal and Atreus betraying him shows that their relationship was unstable and broke at the slightest bump on the road.
This scene, and more precisely the fall that comes right after it, was particularly powerful to me. The adult fear of having your child taken away from you, with the tense music to hammer the point in... Not to mention that Kratos' jump mirrors his attempt at suicide in the very first game, when he "cast himself from the highest mountain in all of Greece". In the original God of War, Kratos jumped because he had lost all hope, but here he jumps to save what is probably his last glimmer of hope.
Damn, didn't even thought of that.
I always imagine a possible scenario in my head with a (let's face it, eventual) sequel would be Kratos and *Loki*, on top of a cliff, Kratos lamenting to him how he tried to kill himself.
Screw all the other deities and religion-stuff, *that's* the kind of shit I want to see in the sequel.
@@Kaikaifilu1994 The sequel will probably deal with Odin tricking Loki into being his blood brother and Kratos telling him about how long ago he had a similar relationship with a god and how that subsequently led to the death of his family by his own hands. I say this because Loki's journey seems to directly mirror Kratos' in the original games, where Kratos would have begun a revenge for what his father had done, Loki sees his father redeemed and actively helping him do better. Where Kratos would have gone of the deep end with rage Loki sees himself be reeled in by his father and thought how to control the rage and use it to his advantage. The only difference between Kratos' story and Loki's is that Loki has a father with and not just any father a father that is there to guide him and also a father who is willing to be better for his son, something Kratos never had. Had Zeus interviened when Ares tricked Kratos, had he shown compassion to his son when he needed to, the story of the original trilogy would have been way different and I think that. This sequel to the original story really does feel like a telling of what Kratos' life would have been like had he had a good father. Anyways that's how I feel that the stories of son and father mirror each other.
@@ricremricrem2221 :’) Beautiful.
Absolutely beautiful.
@@Kaikaifilu1994 Thanks m8
@@ricremricrem2221 No problem. 🙂
#youreanoobtim
Ayyyyyy it's you
I always found it odd that a big part of Kratos' arc was being honest with his son of who he was,all the wrong that he's done and that it ends with him saying " I have nothing left to hide". However that's not true at all, Kratos still has one shameful secret that he has yet to divulge: the murder of his wife and daughter. Barlog and the rest of the team were so detailed in Krato's shameful past that I was surprised that their murder wasn't revealed in Hel instead of Zeus since Kratos never even cared for his father for being an absentee father and imprisoning his brother Demos ( not to mention cursing his mother that turned her into a monster that tried to kill her own son ). Barlog and the team were so meticulous that this can't be an oversight. I'm thinking they'll hold onto this for the sequel and use it as one last potential divide between Kratos and Atreus, one last hidden truth that his son just cannot take.
I will say that the patricide was more directly relevant to the plot, since a good deal of the story is about not repeating the mistakes of the past, and not following in footsteps. Currently one of the ways Atreus could’ve followed in Kratos’ footsteps would be to kill his father. Not sure if that made sense; I have a tendency to ramble rather un-cohesively.
@@TheOverArchiver Nah that was very coherent, it made sense
Chill-Meister Thanks!
@@Chill-Meister700 yeah with the " the cicle ends here" mirroring when zeus "killed" kratos . Patricide is important . Before even time cronos killed uranus the creator of the infinite cosmos, cronos attempted to prevent zeus from committing patricide yet that failed and zeus beat cronos , and finalky kratos beat zeus . Now we have atreus , what will he do . People don't ubderstand how jratos had nothing from the start , he is 100% the same in the new game as in the old ones character wise , just now he has someone that he loves , tho with all the trauma he can't show that as much as he did with caliope . Hope his daughter is still doing well. They wanna save some stuff for the future obvs .
I think the reason that Kratos's murder of his previous mortal family isn't brought up in this game, especially in the context of Kratos revealing his shameful actions, is that he didn't *choose* to murder his wife and daughter. Ares *tricked* him into murdering them. Every other life Kratos takes, is his to own; but those two deaths were Ares's.
If anything, Atrues learning what happened might help shed more light on just why Kratos hates gods with such passion.
A few years ago, my brother and I went on a multi-day hike in the Sierra Nevada mountains to scatter our grandfather's ashes there at various locations along the trails he loved.
This game really hit me hard, most of all at the end when they finally scatter the ashes. It reminded me of a particular moment when we stood in a mountain saddle and did the same.
Also, those grapple combat controls were absolute fucking *jank,* it's not just you.
How was the hike?
An interesting point about the retrieval of the Blades of Chaos. The combos for them are identical to the old games. At this point in the game, you've gotten used to the Leviathan Axe, so as you pick up the weapons of the past you feel as the player like "Okay, let's see if I remember how to do this". This is an additional layer to an already amazing scene.
Of course there's an Avatar comparison lmao
He did go 40 minutes before he brought it up. :)
I reckon there's also a lot of interesting stuff to talk about in regards to masculinity and the deconstruction and rebuilding of masculinity as seen through kratos
Thank you, yes
I don't think it represents so much a deconstruction of Kratos' masculinity, rather I think it's more a reconciliation between the masculine and feminine aspects of his personality from a symbolic perspective. So if you wanted to get jungian I guess you could say he integrates his anima.
@@andyp257 I mean I think that you could absolutely view the original games as a deconstruction of a toxic masculinity - whether that was intended or not - and the new game as a reconstruction of a healthier masculinity. Im not sure but I feel like Cory balrog has said or suggested as much himself in some interview or other. Idk it's just how I kinda took it.
@@cuniving7831 +
I think that Cory’s own growth as a person (having become a father since earlier GoW titles) is reflected in Kratos himself striving to be more conscientious and mature, especially with wanting to set an example for Atreus.
An argument can also be made comparing the difference in how Kratos approaches with his son as opposed to how doting he was with his daughter, Calliope as we saw in the older games - notably “Chains of Olympus”.
A crossover featuring two of my favorite channels IS IT MY BIRTHDAY?!
It is mine!
it's mine too!!!
"WHAT IS THIS, A CROSSOVER EPSIODE?"
Yes it was so amazing to have the blades back but something I feel people keep forgetting or just didn't notice. When kratos unearthed them I felt myself wanting to cry with both joy and grief. Joy because my boys are back grief because his curse his back.
He hates the blades every time he tries to get rid if them they find their way back to him. He killed his wife and daughter with these wary blades, everything that went wrong in his life started with these blades.
He was finally moving on. Just when it seemed like he could live his life away from it all like always they find a way back into his hands.
The shivers and the conflicting emotions were so amazing.
I've never seen anyone talk about this it makes me feel like I'm the only one and that I might have misunderstood kratos...
My friend and I talked about that scene extensively when we first played through the game it is by far my favorite scene in the entire franchise. Not just because of what they represent for both players and kratos by that point it the game but what the action itself shows and what they show that they have partially represented and kinda now fully represent.
Those blades as much as they have been a curse for Kratos they have been his only hope and one of the things that made him a monster. It was with those blades that he swore revenge on olympus and it was those blades that brought that revenge about. Without those blades Kratos didn't really stand a chance at revenge nor would he have ever sworn it.
Now they come back at his lowest point once again to both remind him of the monster he once was and in many ways still is and to precent themselves as his only hope at saving his son.
The scene also shows how he still willing to be a monster to protect his son and how those blades are much more to him than what they represent as in many ways the blades are him and he is the blades. Without him the blades have no meaning or use and like I said before the blades are his only hope. In the end he is a monster but like he said to Athena he is no longer somebody else's monster he is now his own monster and by proxy (due to being the blades themselves) his own hope.
Anyways this really ties into how in the 3rd game he becomes the keeper of hope due to opening pandoras box.
Man playing this video game by myself after school while waiting for my mom and dad to come home really hit different on my first playthrough. When I finished the game I gave my dad a big old hug lol, made me appreciate my parents so much more
11:23 it's very well urn-ed
OK in regards to the part of Tyr's temple being hollow. You're absolutely wrong. Were you not paying attention during that scene?
When Kratos opens that wine cask, his daughter's flute theme plays. Showing that he's reflecting on his past family and feeling nostalgic, before it transitions to the ominous music of the old games when he sees the vase.
It's amazing audible story telling. Plus, when Mimir talks about Tyr in his temple, it plays a key role in Atreus's finding his equilibrium and humility.
the subtle nod to issues related to masculinity and mental health that is a father hiding forearm scarrs being the direct cause of his son's illness is just... fenomenal storytelling
24:00-24:46
I don't really mind. I'm going to scatter ashes. The narrative is just getting to know the head and doing things with the boy along with the changing mood of the boy and how kratos reacts to that.
Each step was to scatter the ashes and see more development of dad and boy. Knowing that made me feel like there was progression.
I can see how you would want more from the story because this adventure is simple and cuts off were it's just getting better but as faw as progress gose I felt it.
+
@@anthonynorman7545
Plus....... what?
I disagree. Firstly, there is urgency to their quest. Since their protection is gone, Asguard is starting to make their move and Kratos is worried that the more time they waste, the more they risk getting hurt.
Secondly some sequences just take the piss out of the story. Like being at the temple, climbing a section of the mountain only to find it blocked with mist, needing to go back to the temple to go to Alfein to get the light, then going back to the mountain to clear the mist in 2 proactrated sequences. It was boring and hurt the pacing
@@FraserSouris
What about them spreding the ashes of a love one that will stop them from getting hurt?
There is no real time limit to this. If they don't do it then .... nothing happens.
It's at there own pacing.
And the parts you say take the piss out of the story really just makes the story longer and opens you to more moment of character relationship development between mostly boy and dad.
Witch in turn makes the development earned when the conclusion is finally having a better understanding of each other and spreading the ashes.
It's the journey you was supposed to like not the goal post.
I think Anyway. At least that's why I don't mind the excuses to keep it going.
And really the part about the first mountain not bey THE mountain actually feeds into the story to make it better by alluding to new information about a dead character who we only hear about and never see.
Edited: just fixing some sentences
@@FraserSouris
Oh but about it being boring to you.......idk. it a small bit of the game. After your done clearing the mist that's it. You don't haft to do it again.
And going to another worli and fighting enemies there.......how is that boring. You fight for the hole game. What makes this different?
Is it just the frustration of something simple needing to many steps and having a lot of caveats to get done?
Again I was focusing on kratos and the boy seeing how that was the real goal and meat of the games story. So....I just never felt of pacing... Except for those times I got lost on the maps and couldn't find out were I was going.
Still don't know if that's a me problem or the map is hard to read.
Great stuff. I really connected with the side quest problem, because for me, all of these sub versions from the story gave focus to the true end game (kratos and atreus's relationship growing) and gave vital time and context to that growth. So I can kind of see it from both sides. Excellent video. Ever heard of horizon: zero dawn?????? 👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀
I would argue that the"sidequest" problem isn't a problem at all, but the POINT. Yes, Kratos and Atreus are on a mission to get to Jotunheim, but this is one of those "journey over destination" stories. All the detours from the main quest serve the purpose of exploring different aspects of their relationship, putting them to the test, and ultimately teach them how to be father and son. Getting to Jotunheim feels good not because we overcome the obstacles and get there, but because Kratos and Atreus go TOGETHER, they have grown and changed throughout the story.
Wait, wouldn't Atreus have still gotten sick even if Kratos had told him he was a god? I mean he was a giant and NO ONE knew. Wouldn't that have resulted in some sort of physiological identity crisis illness as well? The game never actually states that he thinks he's human, but he was kept in the dark on BOTH halves of his heritage. Not just the Olympian side.
Atreus does say that they’re quote “nobodies”
it only happens to gods, and as shallowly as i can put it it’s basically god puberty but because atreus has no idea what’s happening to him it manifests as a sickness, giants arent gods
In the story, mimir mentions that the sickness sometimes happens in mortals, but a God believing himself mortal was never seen before. Jotum are still mortal and not God. Atreus believes himself to be a mortal and not a God so he should heal after believing himself being a god
Probably not, because from how I understood the sickness, it was about "thinking himself limited, when he wasn't", since that's how it seems to be spoken about, and telling Atreus seems to be all that was needed, or, put another way, Atreus thought himself a weak mortal, when he actually had much more to who and what he was, that he was unconsciously suppressing due to thinking he was mortal, thus making his own nature work against him. Think like an Obscurial from _Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them_ but out of ignorance rather than conscious rejection. If Atreus had known he was a god, he would've probably awakened his Jotnar abilities properly, but assumed they were just more God powers, but still used them, so he would've been fine. Though, I would speculate that having a whole other supernatural nature in him might've made it _worse_ than if Faye had been mortal instead of a Giant.
My God, this was absolutely phenomenal. Now I'm sitting here with tears rolling down my cheeks and I don't know why. I'm so excited for the next game!!
I think my favorite thing about this game is that even when it contradicts Norse mythology, it’s clear that those contradictions are done intentionally and not out of ignorance.
Great video, I really like this video. I would like to mention that I have a slight disagreement with how you presented the 'side quest problem.' Perhaps I blinked and the section, is mostly premised on the story elements and omitting any game play progression. Admittedly that's your area of interest so no real blame. I would like to see more like this, even in a shorter form. Snippets of other stuff you care about.
I think he referred to the main quest being continually deviated as "sideways progression" and did not intend to use sidequest as most gamers would use it. I too thought he was going to talk about the Valkyries (spelled that right i hope), and other side plots and the dissonance side quests often provide in the narrative structure of games (although GoW is not particularly guilty of this specific sin, as the stakes of the main quest are quite low and Kratos makes mention of improving their equipment to make the journey possible)
Ugh! Not only did you include one of my other favorite writing focused channels but you actually made me love this game even more than I already did. Your critiques we're well founded and valid - and I honestly learned a lot. Definitely one of my favorite videos from you.
I love theorizing on the war of Alfheim.
The light elves recognize the spiritual power of the light, while the dark elves recognize the material power.
You think the light elves would be the ones in the right, and originally they were, but over time they became obsessed with spirituality and forgot about the real world altogether. The leaders abandon their people to spend all their time basking in the light.
Then the dark elves rose up, took down the light elves, and shut out the light, using it for greater benefit. They abandon the spirit world in order to embrace the real one.
I like your bit on the pacing, artificially adding prerequisites to goals. How do you feel, then, about how Breath of the Wild was structured? You could, technically, go after the last boss immediately after the "tutorial" bit.
Alexander Beilby I haven’t finished Botw, but I have to say I love the way the game is structured. To me, it felt like the world was a place to explore rather than having to explore to get further in the story. Additionally, the option to go straight to the heart of the problem was always there but didn’t feel like an option because I always knew I was too weak to do it. The progression in the game didn’t feel arbitrarily tacked on to a story, rather it was generated by my own decision to make sure I was powerful enough to do what needs done
I will say this about BotW, it's that game where you don't want to go to the final boss cause you don't want it to end.
Breath of the Wild was essentially structured around freedom and exploration, which it did beautifully. The side quests, and the main dungeons struggled slightly in parts as a result of this. Great game regardless.
yea but in botw the entire idea is to explore as much as possible in order to achieve that end goal. the entire game is basically training and preparation for that final battle rather than having the story be interrupted as the goal gets further and further away
I’d be very curious to see what you think of Dark Souls. It’s a very different story structure for gaming.
There's been a lot of videos analyzing it, so I wonder what new he could bring to the table.
@@merrittanimation7721 A "gamer second" outside view maybe? I'm not into the matter so just a random thought.
@@Drachensingsang A possibility.
@@merrittanimation7721 there is a lot of lore to dark souls/Sekiro/Bloodborne, I've Never played the games but i do know that the lore is expansive and i would love to see Tim's take on it from a story telling perspective.
This would depend on his apptitude to even playing since many people steer from the souls for being infamously difficult, rewarding but also rough to both play and follow along. Not sure if he'd be willing to sit down and go through all 3 while noting down the story. The only other option is just purely looking up everything and just not having a connection to it both as a player and audience member.
God of War is one of my favourite games of recent years, so I really enjoyed this critique. Also I'm a big mythology nerd as well so major props for the mythology section.
Do a world building video on the game Hollow Knight. The amount of lore in that game is staggering (and the game itself is amazing. Joseph Anderson himself made two videos on it)
Ismael San Antonio finally someone says it,it’s one of the best games of all time hands down,super hyped for Silksong
• Dragon_Flame • same
@@ascended313 Same here!!
I love when you three collab cuz like ITS ALL MY FAVES
I’d be excited to see more analysis of other games like Horizon Zero Dawn or The Last of Us! You have such lovely insight to storytelling and I love seeing it done with games
Red Dead 2
the argument about the obstacles neglects the fact that each trial to get said items fleshes out the world hints at storylines for the next game and is entirely significant to the lore and character arcs of Kratos and Atreus
When you guys collaborate...
I feel like I have all 3 of my favorite story teachers in the same classroom
I've also just finished God of War 4. It's cool to still see videos on it because it's such an amazing game!
Doesn't kratos only finds out faye was from jotunhiem after meeting mimir?
So it would make sense that he didn't know that she wanted them to go to jotunhiem.
I would like to put forth the argument that all of the back and forth with the various conditionals is narratively engaging as it directly shows the lengths that Tyr went to to hide the Realm of the Giants from Odin, making it nearly impossible to access and Odin's paranoia that some one would challenge him that he would place his own roadblocks to prevent anyone from ever finding out what he is actually doing.
"It's not about the destination, it's about the journey"
My takeaway: in any narrative, especially a game, if you're going to change the pace, have a story reason to do so. Other cool points too, but ones that are touched on in other videos or [more rarely] i've intuitively picked up on from consuming well written content
0:56 hahahahaaaa, You Overly Sarcastic and Joseph anderson. Right now the World feels like a small Apartmentroom.
Writing this comment at 27:15. Right after some of your complaints about the pacing. Specifically when Kratos destroyed the gate to Jotunheim.
This was one of my favorite moments story wise of the entire game. Reasons being Kratos was desperate. We can tell because he told Atreus specifically 'you can get lost in your anger, you must learn to harness it' or he would suffer consequences. And here we see Kratos falling into a similar trap because he was ambushed by one of the only enemies he has yet to learn how to kill. After we go hunting with Atreus at the start of the game We spent 5-10 minutes just fighting this dude (Baldur) and it seems like no matter how much Kratos throws at him he won't die. He *can't* die. And that *frightens* Kratos. So much so he has to go to extreme measures to at least subdue him to keep his son safe. The same son who is slipping further away, acting ever more cold and 'Godlike' while Kratos is acting more and more 'human-like' or mortal. Where as the story began with them in the reverse. So many small painstaking details are happening at once and I feel like the pace of the story allowed for all of those narrative threads to breathe, that includes each "side quest" and at this moment where Kratos and Atreus are ambushed so many of these narrative beats come to a head. I get the frustration with feeling like the game is just meandering but it's doing it for a reason, for so many reasons, and getting hung up on the end goal will blind you to those things. Which is part of what Faye was trying to convey to Kratos and Atreus in the first place. It's not about the goal but the journey.
TLDR: I respectfully disagree, I think the game's pace is absolutely perfect. Or at the very least, as good as it can be.
Omg omg omg overly sarcastic productions colab!! 🥰🥰🥰🥰
KRATOS' "Leviathan Axe" & "Gauntlet w/Retractable Shield" are two of my favorite weapons/tools in fiction.
I want a technological modern shield that can expand/retract like that.
The Leviathan Axe's "ICE JOTUN" powerset is badaas
Kratos: "My son and I just went to the highest mountain to spread my wife's ashes."
Stranger: "My condolences for your loss. Glad to see you and your son had a safe and swift journey."
Kratos: "Yes..."
Nice to see two of my favorite TH-cam channels together.
Ever since the game came out, I've seen dozens of videos talking about why it's so good. But you, along with Red and Blue, have created, by far, the most interesting and engaging one I've yet seen. Thank you so much to all of you for having made it :)
Oh this was released before GoW 5 Ragnorok! I'd love to hear the critique of the current game!
An Old theory about Kratos’ character is that he really is a fusion of the unborn son is of Zeus and Metis and Loki’s Father
Remember me is one of my favourite games. Always great to see it mentioned!
Hmm, just off the bat before the video starts, I know that the game did to mythology what the originals did to greek mythology, which is to say, take the spirit of it and ignore all the details. I mean, I love it, but it's in line with the Thor Ragnarok philosophy of myth. I particularly loved this game because of the father/son relationship, which I never really got to experience as a kid, and it was really fulfilling to see Kratos' rage fueled vision of a particular kind of masculinity, it's also really nice to see Kratos become rounder as he grows, it gives me hope for my own identity, not only as a man, but as an incredibly flawed person. It is heartening in general to see dad characters not only in a positive light, but in a redemptive light too, a role that requires learning and changing, not pure stoicism. I love its simplicity too, my only real critique of the game is that it feels pretty short. I'll come back after the video is done and see if I was on the same page :P
Huh, I had no idea about Laufey's husband, that's really cool! Also, I do remember feeling cheated when Kratos and Baldur destroyed the gate, I think the pacing criticism is a good one which I totally overlooked. I only really enjoyed the story as narrative the first and maybe second time through, but well over half of my time with the game was just playing for the sake of the joy of the playing. So I kind of forgot the narrative hiccups, since my engagement was primarily different than my first playthrough. It's kind of the nature of the medium, and I think you're right, they could be tighter, the sidequest structure could be tightened up to the story.
Aelfheim is definitely the weakest part of the game for me, as narrative and gameplay, so I'm with you there. I pin that in particular on development restrictions... aelfheim being essentially a long hallway you walk down, and then walk back through, seems contrived on a level the rest of the game didn't. Still a legit ciriticism though. I do wish, in general, that there were more npcs. The ones we got were great, but we needed more interaction between the settings and the arc, which as you said, would be heightened by giving us an emotional hook for our presence there, as opposed to somewhere else.
Fuck me though, when GoW '18 does tie setting and character together, it really nails it. The Blades of Chaos retrieval is indeed fantastic, and I loved it so much. I rarely have such a physiological reaction to media, but when we hear his old theme, as unwraps the blades, I was shivering. Gooseflesh, tears.
I also get where you're coming from, where Kratos doesn't really have a redemptive arc for his own sake... which is honestly something I identify with. I've had a really shitty life, and at the end of the day, running away is really the only thing you can do, at a certain point. Running from my abusive family, abusive friend circles, abusive work, there's a point at which you just can't fix things. You have to start again, and like Kratos says, do better. That's kind of the philosophy that has rescued me from nearly a decade of suicidality. I felt Kratos' journey to be strong enough to really, earnestly start again, deeply, in a way I rarely get with typical redemptive arcs. It's a similar experience I've had reading the Stormlight Archive, following Dalinar's unfolding arc. You can't fix anything... it's about the next step, and making sure that one is the right one.
Anyways... I loved the video Tim! and it was great to hear OSP too, I loved their playthrough of GoW '18! Thanks, guys :)
The fight on the back of the dragon was frustrating and felt awkward, but that awkwardness also felt appropriate given the context. Kratos's perspective was turned upside-down, both literally and metaphorically. In the literal sense, he has no proper footing on the back of the dragon. When the dragon is gaining altitude, he's literally upside-down and having to fight Baldur at the same time. Metaphorically, Kratos has lost control of Atreus to the Spartan Rage and risks repeating the same cycle of patricide that ran in his family (Zeus killing Cronus, Kratos killing Zeus).
If we're gonna call 1917 and death stranding masterpieces than God of war is most definitely a full blown masterpiece, not just almost. Because I don't think either of those were more than 'great', at best. In fact personally I'd rate them lower.
not sure about 1917 but certainly agree with death stranding, it was in my eyes a complete failure, why, because i found the difference between a functioning (if bat shit confusing) story and its gameplay just so jarring that it lost all meaning. and gameplay includes controls and just ui in general which was clunky and furstrating. it failed because the components it had failed to work together and instead one part took off from the other
I didn't technically call Death Stranding a masterpiece, just drew attention to its long cutscenes. 1917, however, I really enjoyed personally.
~ Tim
I liked the cameras
@@jam8539 yes yes yes true
GOW isn't a masteripece. It's story has gaps like Atreus becoming a dick. Its camera hurts the experience. Its combat system, open world, progression and navigation are lacklustre
I'm so happy you shouted out my boy Joeseph Anderson, he's my favorite TH-camr (sorry, you're a close second) and I don't think he gets enough exposure or recognition.
Opening the hidden chambers is a "MINOR PART OF THE GAME" WTF?! It´s not all about Story, GoW REALLLY shines when we are talking about the combat, THAT´S the reason why people finish the game over and over and over again. And the valkyries are a MAJOR part of that, especially Sigrun is one of the best boss battles in video game history. Receiving the chisel is always one the achievements you are looking most foward to during the playthrough, because that´s the moment when you have the pleasure to finally visit the valkyries again.
He says you can beat the game in 10 hours. I'm positive he didn't touch those fights
wow, you clearly put a LOT of effort into this video, and having "red & blue" do some explaining was really enjoyable! absolutely loved the video!
19:33 Discovery writing!
32:37 IF you hold off on the side quests and items here until you get Mimir, he GIVES you the narrative that you crave, BUT we set in motion grave consequences to Elfheim, I won't spoil them here, play on new game + and get Mimir first, then do all the collecting/sidequests. oh boy.
What exactly are the limitations of games that you’re mentioning? As far as I can think of, it seems that games offer the least limitations of any medium
I think everything that happened in Alpheim was up to player to figure before they really dive deep once Kratos and Atreus return to to that realm. It was theorized that the elves fight over the light because the light holds the souls of those who have passed and because Kratos and Atreus stop kill the dark elves too many are dying and not enough are being judged to go either Hell or Valhalla and so Helheim becomes over run contributing to Ragnorock.
Now, can we Imagine the guy with the Flaming sword is not Syrtyr but actually Kratos? We can get a lot of recognition if we canonise the Muspelheim trials
His elemental motif is Fire, he routinely is the death of worlds and Gods alike, he’s referred to as Farbauti by the Giants which means Cruel Striker, and Kratos means Strength. He suits all the descriptions of a flaming sword that will destroy the Gods and burn away the old world. Problem is that Kratos doesn’t want to be that guy anymore and if the trailer for the new game is any indication Atreus is more interested in killing the Gods than Kratos.
Great video - however my biggest point of counter for the Sidequest Problem is that, IMO, all the detours and setbacks felt true to the 'road trip with a parent' narrative. I found myself really appreciating the quiet moments in the canoe, or discovering a weird island with its own little story to tell; it all felt like it was part of the trip me and my boy were taking together. Seeing the subtle ways Kratos is trying to imprint humanity, leadership, and a sense of responsibility onto Atreus really informed the revelation of his godhood (whether or not you knew he was Loki before playing).
Anyways, TLDR: the father/son dynamic was enhanced by all of the sidequesting in line with parental roadtrip tropes
Hello, Hello Future Me, I love ur channel and everything that you have done along with Overly Sarcastic Productions - little shoutout to them - but I was wondering if you could do something over character arcs over the course of a trilogy as I have a book that I have been working on that will eventually have a character that will be in a trilogy but I didn't know how to work on his/her character arc without it seeming like a drag over the course of three books
Is it possible to have an overall arc for the trilogy but sub arcs for each singular book?
Just needing a little suggestions
P. S. Sorry for the long message
P. P. S. Love the constant Avatar references - don't light up -
Excelent job, as always. I've been hoping that you would go over this game sometime, but this was great.
What if aang woke up after the comet passed? The world would need him most after the Phoenix King destroyed the earth kingdom.
Quick note on plot progression and Side quests. I get why sideways progression feels arbitrary and slow, but as a potential thematic plus to the god of war team, that is actually what climbing a mountain feels like. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve came to the summit of a mountain only to realize that there are still more switchbacks to trek before the day is done. Switchbacks are a lot like side quests narratively.
I haven't read all of the history of fiction, but I think Speaker for the Dead is an even better redemption story than Zuko's, and Ender REALLY did something that needed redemption
Re: the side quest problem, while frustrating to play, that seems very, VERY on theme for Kratos. There's always a new obstacle and everyone is jerking you around, that's just life for a Spartan...
Re: redemption arc, i think it's effective that Kratos doesn't get "redeemed" for the first 3 games because, (hot take incoming) he wasn't wrong! He was strictly right either, but certainly not wrong. He is, however, scarred by those experiences, thus not seeking redemption, but.... something else.
He WAS wrong, hiding those scars from the boy, and that was A+ redemption material
God of Boy. (I'm sorry, I watched Jacksepticeye's play through 🤦♂️)
This is a really good and well rounded critique. I really enjoyed watching this. Also I like these longer videos, I feel like you're able to say exactly what you think and mean more and aren't rushed for time constraints. I realize you can't do these all the time but they're a treat when you can :)
Edit: Also I'm such a fan of Christopher Judge in this, he really nailed Kratos.
You always make an Avatar comparison XD Do you also do that when someone asks you what time it is?
Great collab! I've been missing these
I really enjoyed this, but I wish you'd talked a bit more about how rushed and out of nowhere Atraeus' arrogance was. That always bugged me
Yeah that sucked and felt contrived. Joseph Anderson really went into a good amount of depth about that, and I really wouldn't have much more to say than "it felt contrived and forced and the dialogue was bad".
- Tim
AngelofGrace96 Actually it makes sense why Atreus started to act the way he did, you see his behavior is partially because Kratos STILL refuses to divulge important information from his past and is rather hands off as a parent so Atreus is left to only interpret what his father is saying and that causes communication issues. Case in point when Kratos said “you must be better than me” due to his lack of knowledge regarding Kratos’ bloodstained past he interpreted that as meaning he must be more like him, basically more ferocious, arrogant, violent and reckless, essentially he thinks Kratos wants him to be more like him. It’s actually understandable due to how young Atreus is and how ignorant he is regarding the context of his father’s words, it’s really a good example of why communication is important in these types of relationships, what you say can easily be misinterpreted by your child if you aren’t clear in your wording.
@@ryancarson6962 that's a good point, thank you
Ryan Carson yeah in order for it to really work in my opinion they would have had to build it up more. Even it is somewhat justified (narratively speaking), it is till very rushed
Two of my favourite TH-cam channels collaborating... heck yes!!
#youreanoobtim But also great review! It’s a great game and I loved your take on it! 😊
This video was phenomenal. I love your content and IMO this might be your best video yet.
TBF, I think that Devil May Cry 3 does a better job at telling a story, but in the same genre.
Also, thanks for making such thorough videos!
See I think DMC 3 is a better game but not because of its story because story in DMC games is just an excuse to have fun shit happen, it doesn't need to be anything more and thats perfect.
DMC 3 Has better combat and moment to moment gameplay that isn't dragged down by any delusion of grandeur, so it can focus all its attention on refining one of the best combat systems ever put in a game. That alone makes it better than GOD PS4.
@@chazzergamer it's easy to undersell the story of the game because it's presented in an extremely unapologetic and bombastic way, and fun is still the main goal. but you don't have to dig very deep before finding a wonderful story on the sins of the father and the nature of inheritance of responsibility, gathered together with a mythologically fitting tale of two brothers that have a perverse appreciation for the rivalry that is tearing the world down around them.
I think people inherently assuming the qualities of a story based on the tone is the exact problem that gives us games like GOW that is utterly insecure about its own medium and need to constantly remind the audience of it's "maturity" and "importance" through surface element cues. I'll give you that DMC 1,2 and 4 is a bit on the lighter in term of story side but damn does 3 and 5 bring the thunder. and even have so much stronger understanding of its filmatic elements, utilising classic cutting, camerawork and dialogue in a cutscenes in such an effective and poignant way, but it's all in the service of the larger experience wich is why it's so confident in it's bravado and doesn't feel the need to bring attention to its insane level of craft. only held back by it's technological limitations of the ps2, all but removed when 5 popped around.
so yes, the story is an excuse to have fun, it's bombastic, childish and camp as all hell in its presentation, but it's also very driven, confident, unique, poignant and so fantastically not ashamed of what it is.
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Your comments on GOW being insecure is pretty much exactly what I’ve said in a comment on this very video and pretty much my opinion of the game.
But I still don’t think DMC story is as deep as some fans say it is nor do I think it needs to even be an argument, ironically it mirrors the kind of insecurity I see in GOW.
DMC isn’t a bad story but it’s not what I’d consider a draw, it’s the characters and their chemistry that does that. It’s like the first Avengers film, the story works but it isn’t why you are there, it’s the characters chemistry and the great spectacle of the film.
The spectacle of DMC cannot be overstated especially in 3 which is my personal favourite, it’s tone and charisma is enough to justify the investment in the writing for me anyway, with the combat being where the artistic value comes in.
@@chazzergameri don't disagree with the things stated where the games lay, but i'm gonna have to get some solid specifics on what exactly doesn't make the story as "deep" as some claim it to be. Because how it weaves every charakter's personal arc into a larger theme, and then comments on that theme in a larger context works extremely well, and story beats such as dante jumping off the tower in a selfdestructive fit of rage is such a fantastic moment. Beyond just spectacle. Granted, such things as stilted dialogue can ruin such an experience for one but i don't think that should imedietly diminish the things of substance that is present
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I haven’t played the games in years so I can’t bring out analytical points out from nowhere, and while I did play 5 recently a lot of that games qualities in the story is it’s theme of passing the torch and letting go of the past which only really hit when you have the past games fresh in the mind.
All I can say that when I was playing the games I didn’t feel invested in the story through a combination of things, stakes (because nearly all the characters are practically indestructible and know it) odd pacing (again for writing, gameplay wise it has great pacing) and simplistic writing.
Again while these are flaws, they are flaws I don’t think hold any value in the context of the game. It’s like saying Mario has a bad story, it’s correct but to what end?
Again I’m not the biggest DMC fan so I probably can’t appreciate its story like others can but I do admire its commitment to staying a game in an industry that doesn’t want to make games anymore, just soulless loot box cash grabs and interactive movies.
...great now I’ve bummed myself out.
I’m glad that you referenced Joseph Anderson’s critique because it set my mind at ease to know that you weren’t just going to repeat some of the criticisms he made.
Dark Souls... 100 page script.
5000 pages of lore.
Just want to add, on the topic of video game script length being a limitation it's worth noting that games like the new GoW, The Last of Us, and the like are on the shorter end of the spectrum as far as games go. They focus on delivering a more cinematic experience, both in presentation and pacing, resulting in a much less lengthy script.
On the other end of the spectrum, there are RPGs that can maintain a relatively dense story-to-gameplay ratio for lengths extending into triple digit hours.
Games also have the ability to organically house encyclopedias/compendiums to further flesh out the world/story without bogging down the player. Excellent examples of this are the Star Ocean and God Eater series, who dedicate entire in-game databases to such things. And of course, I'd be remiss not to mention the Soulsbornes and their item descriptions.
Great video, still watching as I'm writing this, but I want to point out that comparing word count of script to that of a book is NOT a great idea, those are incomparable. The game is full of of visual elements and mechanics/magic laws/enemy designs/etc that would need to be described in a book, but are absent in a script. Though if we go for dialogue only it would be acceptable comparison, I suppose.
Looool the picture you used for the ashes in your story structure graphic in part 3 is a mining urn, an item from RuneScape 3
"The other worlds have no bearing on the relationship between Atreus and Kratos" did you even play the game?
Nothing like having three of the best people on TH-cam going at a great story, world and game. And I am so upset with myself that I didn’t see this until right now
Calling it now: Hel is going to be short for Helen once we get to meet her.