@@adaeptzulander2928 He'd probably revive Dorn just to prove he is better. He will never ever turn loyal because there is still opposition to his great craftsmanship
@@Spacefrisian Konrad is the only traitor primarch where I actually see a tragedy (aside possibly Fulgrim, though Fulgrim just pulled an Arthas). How he was negleted with his visions and boiling insanity. Had he been treated (possibly by tuturing under Sanguinius who shared his gift) he might have not turned traitor in the first place.
You could actually say that Omegon was the traitor of the pair. If they did believe the group of aliens (dont remember their name) then Omegon sabotaging Alpharius' plans and seeming to not help the other traitors could demonstrate him siding with Chaos and that Alpharius was the true loyalist. Or they might both have been loyalists in different ways, or both traitors. Nothing is certain. Nothing except that we all are Alpharius.
The best way to save angron is to have his adoptive father save him from himself because the only thing angron always wanted was his slave family back not a puppet of khorne
Honestly this is what I'm hoping for. think about it, if fulgrim (y'know the PHOENIX primarch) comes back reborn and his corrupted form still exist we could have loyalist and traitor emperors children go head to head, corrupted fulgrim vs redeemed fulgrim. It'd be the ultimate symbolic battle for humanity's struggle against chaos and their own corruption.
@@Blace_Steve His mind Is already lost we would have to go to the past wich would be bs or maybe the trazyn way, obtain the real soul and put It in a clone.
I disagree about Mortarion. He was forced into Nurgle's service and he does things that deliberately go against Nurgle's will. I think given enough of a push he could be swayed against Chaos.
I love the idea of Mortarion freeing Isha to get back at Papa Nurgle. It wouldnt be redemption in the eyes of humanity, but it would be a redemption of a sort.
This. Its not about loyalty to the EMPEROR, its about using his hatred and bitterness to go AWAY from Chaos, particularly if it can be engineered where believe he did it himself, thus, hopefully reducing the odd anger at the Emperor for, yknow, saving his life and abiding to the terms he willingly agreed to.
The fall of Mortarion was the single most retarded thing BL has published in terms of traitor primarchs. Typhon tricks him to do a warp jump. He sees his whole legion get sick and die. So either he stays loyal to a father he despisee and kills his legion and dies or he turns traitor and saves everybody. What a choice ...
Every single part of that book had him acting just like the old Fulgrim, why would he not repeat old mistakes in new places? A decent number of the primarchs could see the future and the crusade still ended in the heresy.
@@tincano-beans2114 Clonegrim now knows what mistakes were made and how they led to disaster. While he would have the uncorrupted Fulgrim's faults he knows what led to those faults, he knows what HAS happened as opposed to what MAY happen.
@@tincano-beans2114 Fulgrim's only mistake was not knowing what chaos was. He was never meant to fall, and the Deamon flat out tells Horus that if it weren't for it whispering in Fulgrim's ear and clouding his thoughts, Fulgrim would never have turned traitor and would have run to the Emperor as soon as he was propositioned by Horus. Hell, even with the Daemon screwing with his mind, he nearly opened fire on Horus' fleet after being warned by the Eldar about the coming Heresy. He was an arrogant git, sure, but he only fell due to bad luck and ignorance. Knowing Daemons exist, and that they will try to trick you into damning yourself, means he won't make such an imperfect mistake again.
I still have the theory that his soul never left that painting when that Daemon claimed he was but then it did belated did 1000s of years later and was able to inhabit Fulgrims clone
Need my IV Legion. Get Perty some participation plaques and a statue and he'll be killing heretics for the Emperor in no time. (Coming from an Iron Warrior)
3rd- Don't forget that Fulgrim's perfect clone DID recognize the wrong, held the memories, and felt terrible remorse. I feel that the perfect clone would more perfect than the original would be. 4th- Perturabo never grew up. He was always a child, stayed a child. I think that he is redeemable. 8th- Curze was forgiven by the Emperor, to quote the Big E, "you did nothing wrong". Curze could be redeemed if his father's insight could avail himself of the reality that what he sees is only ONE possibility. I have a pocket theory that GW is planning on Curze's return as a redeemed avenger. 12th- Chaos can keep Angron. Broken, fallen, wicked, and the Emperor couldn't fix Angron before he was this far gone, so he couldn't now. 14th- Mortarion isn't COMPLETELY gone according to his own testimony in the Plague War series. He is trying to justify his actions to Guilliman and convince him. He doesn't love the Warp, Chaos, or that nonsense. I see Mortarion as a strong possibility, especially if the Lion returns and argues the point with him. I think Mortarion is waiting to be convinced because he doesn't really want to be what he is right now. Additionally, he hates Typhus, the chosen of Nurgle, so that will stoke the anger and jealousy chord.
From what I heard, Mortarion was captured and tortured by Nurgle until he agreed to become a daemon primarch. That could point out that Morti never actually wanted to be a traitor, but rather he was forced to become one. If what I said was even canon, or true at all.
None can be redeemed, all of their souls a held by one of the chaos god. And they can't get it back, all you have to do is read the interaction between mortarion and big E. The man sent him back to his master he chose
@@edmundthespiffing2920 “soap”, ah yes, I had almost forgotten about that primitive thing needed by primitive flesh. My body now only needs the sacred WD40.
"And knowing Angron, he'd probably find a way to hate the Emperor more, just for removing the Nails." Well yeah, I mean... what would Angron's response be aside from "You could have removed these Nails THIS ENTIRE TIME?"
The best way to save angron is to have his adoptive father save him from himself because the only thing angron always wanted was his slave family back not a puppet of khorne
Let's say that Leman Russ manage to reach Isha in Nurgle's garden but can only bring back a small flask of a liquid, able to heal a body from any condition (and maybe a bit your soul too). But while leaving that hellish place, he must face Mortarion. In the following epic duel, the two warriors would be wounded, their armors greatly damage, then the flask is destroyed, splashing the previous liquid on the two primarch. The fight is over. The Great Wolf will be mad because his goal was to bring back the liquid to the emperor. Mortarion is just close to him, lost in his mind. He cannot feel the link he used to have with Nurgel, just his body as young as when he took over the responsibility of the XIV legion, and his mind, at peace. And while Russ, furious, still want to beat him to death, he knows that the more dangerous threat for him would be the journey to find a new place in the universe. Ok, sold, let's write it.
We should not forget that there is a full clone of Fulgrim that despises what the original did in killing Ferrous Mannus, and in becoming a demon prince. So, it doesn't necessarily need to be the original, but the freeing of the clone from Trazen the Infinite.
Eh, Kurze's words to the assassin were more telling than anything else. That the assassin's presence vindicated everything he has said and done. I think the night haunter is gone.
The crown of Curze contains a stone rumored to be a soul transfer Eldar stone. It could contain Curze’s soul and could be transferred to whomever finds and wears it.
The clear case must be Magnus. If his full and hole soul is restored to him, that might help him cast of Tzentzh. But it would also take saving his Legion, and that would be hard.
I believed that until i read battle of the fang and dark imperium. He is lost forever. Even if his sould would be completed that doesnt excuse his action of the last 10k years. Too much blood has been spilled at his hands
@@Meartmans86 You could and should say that about all the Traitor Primarchs. But then again, what 40k character doesn't have lakes worth of blood on their hands.
Release Fulgrims Clone from the Necron Library and let him reforge his legion from the missing (untainted) gene seed! Let a new phoenix rise and defeat his old failures!
@@antmanthegnome The ecclesiarchy's secret is actually a book written by Lorgar the Lectitio Divinitatus. So basically the imperial cult is based on Lorgar's teaching. Lorgar stated after all first the Emperor is divine, which led to the raising of Monarchia. Quite ironic.
I absolutely 100% agree with this. If all the shards of his soul were brought together and he was forced to go before the emperor and the mistake was explained i think he could be and maybe in 15 years or so GW should redeem him.
@@cashewmiranda5155 Amuro Ray knew that there were those who stood in the way of a better future for humanity. There is a reason his enemies called him "White Demon".
@Vulkan Lives This could explain why Clonegrim isn't weak like all the other Primarch clones; he has his soul (or at least a significant portion of it) so in a sense he is more Fulgrim than the daemon one. I honestly think if he somehow was broken out he would be loyalist; but good luck trying to convince the Imperium that you're good now, and convincing the Iron Hands (as well as any other dropsite massacre Legion) to not kill you.
I don't see Mortarion returning to the imperium's fold but I can see him rebelling against chaos and aiding Robute and the Imperium as the leader of a rogue force of astartes.
Fulgrim: I agree with how far he's gone, it'd too far for him to come back. Perturabo: It'd need a lot of work, he could though, Konrad Curze: I don't think so, he was probably gonna turn renegade anyway, due to the neglect Emps gave him, and he's also dead, the Corona Nox theory does seem the most possible for him to come back though. Angron: Probably not, he's got all of the reasons to be a traitor. Mortarion: Possibly, and he's not really altered much. Magnus: Probably, he's got a chance to be redeemed, and he's only traitor due to the fact that it's the fault of Horus, so maybe he'd try and get redemption. Horus: Well, Emps was able to make it so he was able to recognize all that he had done, he's also dead and his soul was broken on Molech. Lorgar: I don't care if people want him to be redeemed, he doesn't deserve it, let Corvus kill him. Omegon: Well, we don't even know if he's even loyalist or traitor.
The best way to save angron is to have his adoptive father save him from himself because the only thing angron always wanted was his slave family back not a puppet of khorne
He will never serve the emperor but he also hate khorne because of the fact humanity suffers he would not be a loyalist but he can become friends with lemon Ross and the empire civilian population because he cares for the weak that was his blood pack with his adopted father never kill the innocent only the psycars
@ Jackson Worthman he can be redeemed but he can't serve the emperor because of what he did with his family but he is not completely corrupted by chaos that would make an interesting character one that is good person but is not a loyalist
Conrad Kurze is a very complicated character, his Personality Split, and his insanity would make things difficult, but that side of him sculpted by the Emperor still exists and lives, it's the reason he Died, Truly a Tragic thing, and so many ways his Character could've remained loyal, some even before his reunion with his Legion and the Emperor, whilst the First Legion is probably my favourite, Conrad is my favourite Primarch
Magnus, and Perturabo, one just needs a damn hug the other needs to hear a simple thanks for trying. That's about it. The Alpha twins??? Eh who knows, I'm not so sure either is actually a traitor or dead for that matter.
Perturabo is an interesting one cause essentially he had learned so much to the point of stagnation which in return made him arrogant but it also didn't help that essentially Perturabo got shafted along with his legion so they really gave him an axe to grind. As for Magnus....good lord murphy's law ran a fuckin train on him his legion got turned into the rubric marines then horus shafted him even more when he turned russ on him so he just got backed straight into a corner. In retrospect the way i see both is they just got royally shafted to the point where they had no real options left.
Hoping his story gets retconned as it goes forward. It doesn't fit his character at all. Have him go full renegade? Sure. But follower of Chaos? Not at all.
@@TheJustcae Pert wasn't a follower of anything. Remember, what happened was that Fulgrim tried to sacrifice him to reach his daemon-princehood, which got Pert thinking that, hey, if he could do the same WITHOUT THE SACRIFICE, that'd be awesome. It's a perfectly logical Perturabo-like train of thought. He was basically trying to go the Abaddon path long before Abaddon himself. From the M41 canon we know that this didn't work out quite as he'd anticipated because he's a daemon primarch now, but we still haven't seen how he botched the plan.
The Night Haunter is a Literary Tool, and Kurz is referencing the "Great Enemy" when he Speaks with the Lion; same as Leman vs Horuz, and some other fights.
Remember primarchs souls don’t die Other than Horus that we know of and even part of Horus soul is still in the warp doing his labours I think still for chaos gods . Curze soul could well be stored in the crown thingy
If gw ever closes out their story, maybe aos style, I actually def see some redemptions in the cards. Maybe every single one. I would actually love that.
What a fantastic video, you really got me thinking about the Primarchs. Angron - I don't think so, for the Emperor would have to make some serious admissions about what he himself did wrong and how he wishes to fix it. And Angron in his turn would have to be able to listen long enough to be persuaded to allow his father to work on doing so. It's not likely alas. Mortarion? I don't think that he has any great motivation to become loyal once again - he just doesn't really seem to care about anything enough. As befits a follower of the god of Despair, I suppose. Perturabo might do it for the exact reasons you said, if the Emperor can just tap into his need to be loved _and_ express his love for his son. In fact, this would go a long way towards mending any of his relationships with his sons ... Cloned Fulgrim would be fully loyal without a doubt, if he just got the right opportunities. He already hates the memory of what his otherself did. However as for Original Recipe Fulgrim - he not only doesn't care for anything except indulging in excess, he also still (at least at the point the short story _Imperfect_ was written) has the daemon inside his head, still trying to influence what he does. But. Fulgrim has an insecure side, and if the Emperor manages to tap into that self-doubt then he might get him questioning his choices enough to make him see that he should be loyal again. Konrad - what can I say, I agree with what you said about the Night Haunter and it breaks my heart. All I can add is that he doesn't want to come back. If he could somehow be saved as well as resurrected? I don't know. Perhaps if the Emperor taught him about his visions and powers this time.
With the speed the lore is written, sometimes I wonder how much I will be able to read of the actual lore before I die... I mean, new codexes, new lore comes out so rarely that I will be happy to live to see the comeback of even one loyal primarch. let alone see traitor primarchs redeem themselfs.
My question is, which of the loyal Primarchs could still turn traitor? How about those out on their quests in the Warp return to find Roboat in charge?!? Or if they find out what Cawl have been cooking up, diddling with Daddy Emperors grand design. Love the uploads Wolf.
Your videos have really helped me get through into the books and the lore. I just finished Aurelian and The First Heretic. I personally think Lorgar would be an amazing redemption arch.
I kind of think Magnus is a possibility. He originally felt regret for his actions (because Magnus did many things wrong), and was betrayed by his brothers. If the emperor met with him and revealed that he never ordered Leman Russ to kill him, but to bring him back to Terra alive. I think Magnus would begin to see how he had been deceived for so long.
Kurze never saw beyond his own death with his foresight. If he were brought back, I think he would be freed from his foresight and possibly his insanity.
interesting, I like this idea. It would show him, that you can overcome fate and that there is always another path, which was his only shortcoming. well, he had it rough unlike most of the other Primarchs. Maybe he got even the shortest stick, so with guidance, he can 100% be redeemed.
The Horus Heresy boils down to the Emperor being a really poor father figure, and being so far removed from humanity, and even his own sons, that he couldn't compute human nature into his plans anymore
Konrad is a lil tricky one, he was/still is the incarnation of the emperor's sense of justice. The night hunter may have took over but what if Curze was fighting him off all the time ? What if, despite the amount of abominable mayhem that happened it was still but a fraction of what the night hunter could have done ( with Konrad weakening him all the time in the background ). In the end the lad wanted but wellness and order. However a demigod, he was left with plaguing visions, an entire legion of psychos on power-armored steroids and a fu*king bipolar primarch other half harassing him like my bills do. That and the betrayal of his main project ( mending up Nostromo)... I mean I saw ppl getting insane for a lil less than that ^^ ps; your videos are top notch man ! Absolutely enjoy them !
+Wolf Lord Rho @Wolf Lord Rho 4:30 - An alternative road to redemption could be that Perturabo learns of the role played by the Word Bearers in orchestrating the revolt on Olympia. Possibly from Omegon going to him and giving him evidence. Perturabo, I think, will have been stewing in his miseries for the ten-thousand years after the Horus Heresy. He'd been so sure of his own convictions, yet at the end of the day and for all of that time: he is still unhappy, surrounded by bigger philistines than anyone on Olympia had been, for ten thousand years in the Eye of Terror. Still unable to build the wonders he wished to. Still bereft of any affection, still bereft of appreciation. I think that *_that,_* combined with learning that he'd been manipulated by Chaos and the Word Bearers, would result in Perty leaving Chaos behind, taking his Iron Warriors, and going off to some random corner of the galaxy, and founding his own little kingdom- finally being able to build and construct his creations as he wishes, with no one to tell him what to do.
Perturabo always just needed someone that cares. The problem is just that it'll never be the Emperor. Otherwise he's totally redeemable, he's just pissed.
Yep. I agree on Perturabo. The Heresy series really made me come to like him. His fall seems the most tragic and most avoidable. Iron within! Iron without!
The way they described fulcrum as being a soul kept in the back tied up watching the demon control the body means he could possibly come back, maybe even have his sound transfered in to one of the clones, but instead of his old flaws of pleasure and perfection he may have gone utterly nuts after so long. I think currently could go full neutral, fighting everyone he meets rather than sidingwith the emperor
My favorite parts about the early horus heresy books are when the Emperors Children start their fall. Reading about the Noise Marines on Istvaan was amazing. Plus the Kurze primarch book really makes it seem like Kurze feels like an inferior Corax.
Perturabo is my second favorite primarch. He was driven to be a traitor over guilt for his actions and I wish he could gain a level of closure for it. Having lost my father when I was young, I don’t know what I would do if I felt he’d never approve of or forgive me for a mistake I did.
The one I think would be the most interesting is Lorgar. It seems like he has been set up as a fallen true believer in the Horus Heresy novels and a reversal of that would be a fantastic change for the modern setting. Making a primarch head of the Ecclesiarchy and a foil for Guilliman would make for interesting tension - far more than any loyalist primarch returning. Maybe Guilliman reading the lectitio divinatus is a sign?
Magnus gets his humanity restored via wherever Malc hid it, purges the deamon by himself, takes the golden throne so the Emperor can die, be reborn and start the new Crusade...to bring the fight to Chaos
I like the observation of how Prince Fulgrim is the furthest removed from what he once was. Where the other gods used there power to exaggerate what the other primarchs where, Slaanesh turned Fulgrim into the polar opposite of what he once was💜
I feel like almost as relevant as the lore of who can be redeemed (which you discussed here) Is the story potential. Ultimately anything is possible but what feels like a good story for a return? An example would be: were a primarch to return, which would be most opposing to Guilliman to open up conflict space there. Another angle could be choosing the Primarch with the most emotional impact. I think for example an Angron redemption arc including some sort of resurrection or cloning and conflict with his demon prince form would be a great story. To stay in the Warhammer theme you could make it a big trade and then let a seed of corruption remain in him placed by Khorne or whatnow.
Lorgar - after having spent 10,000 years in seclusion trying to study the nature of the chaos gods, he finally understands. He senses the emergence of a new power, the Emperor, transcending into a new god within the warp. Since Lorgar had always sought to serve the highest power, he abandons chaos to become an avatar of the Emperor.
Before Filgrim's sword i would say Fulgrim, which is why the clone is so interesting. I really can't see Perterabo coming back to big E, he couldn't even let his adopted brother have a win without lashing out.
I totally agree with fulgrim irredimability here, his fall was far different from that of his brothers. He jumped on that pool head first and through his own means, and he relishes on it like noone else. The rest of his brothers were more or less dragged, decieved or misleaded to damnation in comparisson.
The thing you have to remember is that *everything* is canon, and *nothing* is true. Every single Primarch (including the dead ones) could flip sides and it wouldn't be a bigger "retcon" or "change" than things that have already been retconned. Although the focus on Perturabo led me down an interesting thought-path. One thing that comes to mind, if you abandon the rules of narrative and "epicness" is that Perturabo's story (which I had straight-up forgotten the current canon) is the fact that even after his fall he doesn't really like, believe in, or care about the chaos gods and he had his memories wiped. He has little interest in the ruinous powers and no real sense of wonder or goal beyond disaffected tantrum-y destruction, but more than that he is believed to have grown up learning and fighting and monster slaying but lost all memory of that; having his first awakening memory halfway up a cliffside with a head full of knowledge and the baleful Eye of Terror staring at him. An gaze he felt keenly. If I were writing his story of...not-quite-redemption I would tell the tale of his ascension. Plumbing the depths of the warp and the streams of time within Perturabo would find the hidden memories of when the chaos gods meddled with his mind to wipe out his history and moreover he would find discrete and measuable methods of warp entities, from demons to gods. He would take the Emperor's unformed child, the chaos god of Unbelief and consume it, becoming a literal "god of Atheism" who drew strength from rationalism and thought. He would, in so doing, be an automatic ally to the Emperor's original doctrine of The Imperial Truth. But you see, that kind of thing wouldn't really fit in 40k as it is.
“ Hi, Trazyn, give back my loyal piece of Fulgrim clone” “ he’s my collection, you want him, pay me something back” “ How about my very original golden throne!” “Well, I am ok with it, but are you sure? that’s a compulsory part of your precious empire” “If I am fucking awake, and have Robert and Fulgrim aside me, I don’t need the big toilet anymore.”
Fulgrim- Gets is a** kicked by his clone, realizes he has strayed away from the perfection he was meant to embody and and kills him selves as telling his clone to pass his regrets on to The Emperor. Angron -The Emperor apologizes for leaving his friends to die, the Krone forces to do something so horrible, it awakens his sense of honor, and he tears the Butcher Nails out himself (if anything can survive that, a Deamom Primarch could).
Actually, the Emperor tried to take out the Butcher Claws from Angron, but couldn't. (it's in one of the 1st Terra Siege or maybe one of the last Horus Heresy). I hope you'll do a Primarch reverse loyalty after this one. I could perfectly see Angron as the War Dancer, whirlwhiling in the middle of his enemy, deadly and untouch, instead of just face fronting mindlessly everything.
Okay so to do list: 1: put Fulgrim in a deprivation chamber 2: have big brother Bobby G give Purterabo a few decades long hug in the throne room, hope big daddy E feels like chatting at some point during that few decades 3: get Klonerad Kurayze a therapist 4: Angron... Clonegron
How I imagine the scene in my head of a perturabo redemption. Perturabo leads a combined iron warriors and demon host to terra breaking into the palace and defeating a good chunk of the imperial fists and maybe even crippling or capturing the phalanx along the way (satisfying his ego grudge against dorn and his sons) and with the last bit of the custodes and sons of dorm holding the throne room the emperor comes to Perturabo in a vision/psychic projection and forgives him for destroying Olympia and even for aiding with Horus by Acknowledging that while a primarchs he is still fallible and never meant to be perfect or infallible (addressing GB perturabos belief that the emperor would never forgive him). The scene culminates with the emperor saying “you are my son, my lord of iron and while iron may Bend it never breaks” (again touching on forgiveness but mainly finally acknowledging perturabo as not only his son but a trusted and valued individual) perturabo then turns on the demons and his more “lost” sons saving the emperor and the palace. Fin
Wolf - have you noticed that your videos as well as the other big 40K channels have all been following a similar theme, which revolves around Redemption and parallels to what is currently happening right now? If this was not planned then it is very suspicious. Also, Emperor text-to-speech number 29 had Concepts that I had been thinking of and writing about four months, and is very symbolic from an end-of-days standpoint
I kinda like the the idea that there were meant to be the five (Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Undivided) and each aspect of Chaos gets its champion. Lorgar being the weakest Primarch, now serving the strongest chaos entity really works well for me. That's leaves 4, 2 of whom are dead. Down to Omegon and Perturabo, both of whom could be turned back (or possibly never was turned). Fulgrim and Magnus are special, as they both are multiples (clones and shards, respectively) so I guess they could also be redeemed in some way.
That is why i am still on the bandwagon of the "Vulcan is gone helping Curze heal his mind and will come back with him." Theory. I know it is far far fetched but i want it so much hehe.
On understanding Konrad Curze it really helped that I’ve just finished the Night Lords trilogy by ADB. His gifted (cursed) son seems to be reasonable sometimes but other times a tired monster. He blindly follows fate because he says it’s inevitable. The beleif he adopts from Curze. Although sometimes contradicts by saying that the future is not set, not carved in stone... Man, the Night Lords are clinically insane. Even if Curze returns, his insanity has no cure. Nor his sons contradictory deeds and words. He cannot be redeemed because he’s going to make up his mind when he gets another seizure and do something senseless and cruel that is totally not in line with what the Imperium stands for. The Imperium is an insane and oppressive state but it’s a different kind of madness. At least most times it’s predictable and there’s a sense of order. Konrad Curze always broke. And went against order. He even got bored with darkness. He could not tolerate it though he knew that’s just him. The need and effort for redemtion might be there but insanity makes it much harder to maintain.
I see mortarion as the child that tries to prove himself but couldn't do it, so the father comes in and just did it himself instead of helping him. So now he rebels and just gets spanked for it because it's the only Form of affection he knows. He's still trying to help humanity but does many mistakes on the way.
Kurz would be very interesting to return, but I can't see how Batman would fit into the current universe very well, or even how it would work in the tabletop.
What i wouldn't give to read: "Roused from his contemplation, Guilliman sensed that he was not alone, truly not alone, he felt something he had not technically felt for millenia, and could not help but doubt it. "I know you are there" he said almost impatiently wanting the feeling to be true, but dreading the implications. "Of course you do." said the voice matter of factly, though to Guilliman there were audible hints resignation, deep sorrow and posdibly joy beneath the dry tone. The voice belonged to a primarch, a brother, he could tell even through the distortion of a vox grill - and only a primarch could make their way this deeply into the Imperial palace without detection. A figure stepped from an alcove in his private chambers, and Guilliman's fists clenched, as the figures scaled battle plate and crested serpent helm came into view. "I killed you!", he hissed but remained unmoving, sensing no hostility or immediate danger. "We both know, you never belived that. But you did set me free" said the figure reaching for his Helm. "You are traitor, nothing has changed that" stated Guilliman flatly, an old anger rearing it's unsightly head. "And we both know i that would not't be standing here if that was the hard truth of it, but i have wronged you and for that i am honestly sorry, i acted as necessary." Guilliman reeled at this, it was true that little could enter the palace without their father allowing it, but what threw him most was the apology. "You are a traitor, a heretic even", though shuddered to use the word. You are Alpharius and have never known honesty, let alone remorse! Guilliman spat, but something was amiss, the demeanor didn't quite fit. With a hiss brother that seemed to last an age, his erstwhile brother removed his helmet. Lifting his clean shaven head to stare the brother, that for all intents and purposes hated him and all represented, in the eyes and said solemnly almost unsure of it, like a new taste he was just experiencing, "I am Omegon".
I dunno. Alpha Legion, even before the Heresy, acted like a chaos warband that got their jollies out of spreading panic, chaos and disarray among foes, even in situations that could have been resolved without violence. Most of the other legions ranged from dislike to outright hatred towards them because of that, and I think it didn't get any worse than that only because Horus himself valued them, and even that lasted until he was starting to believe they're getting out of his control - might have led to something more drastic if not for the Heresy.
@@MetaL556 Too true, but (spoilers) they were already divided in the heresy with Omegon sabotaging many of Alpharius' schemes and then dissappearing after "Alpharius" second death. Many of those self same warbands still see themselves as acting loyal to the imperium by culling weak elements, but again with no noted input from their primarch. And who knows how many loyal chapters my sneaky hydra brothers have adopted the mantle of. It is but a hope though
Of all traitor Primarchs, Maggy has the biggest chances since his entire fall was something he never asked for and it was a combination of Tzeentch shenanigans and him being desperate as hell to save his sons and what little of the people of Prospero remained. That and Alpharius and Omegon never betrayed the Imperium...maybe. We'll never know.
Konrad Curze’s emotional reaction to the Emperor was kind of undercut by the fact that he was talking to a giant effigy of his father that he had sculpted out of meat... Yeeeeeah. There’s clearly A LOT of baggage to unpack there...
Man, if Kurze was not killed by the assassin but sedated and put back in the stasis pod he came in, he would be the best to redeem if you could prevent him from killing himself. if he woke up in the 42nd millenium. maybe having the worst already happen, the future he feared already come to pass, maybe he would find new purpose and seek his redemption.
Here's the plan: 1) Use Emperor's warp magic and father-to-son pep talk to remove chaos taint in Pert and the bois. 2) Offer joint contract of renovating Imperial Palace and the Imperium to Pert & Sons Construction Pte. Ltd. and Dorn's Builders Inc. 3) Tell imperial fists and iron warriors to share their lego bricks and play nice. 4) Make Imperium Great Again, but suffer a lost of revenue due to GW's story being less grimdark.
Ironically I think fulgrim is the most likely to return loyal because of his clone. It would be amazing to see a loyalist fulgrim clone obsessed with eliminating the original fulgrim
Cruze is the only Primarch who choose to be a traitor by his own admission. Didn't need any persuading or Chaos influences. He's the only one that is irredeemable, because that what he choice. I would put Angron, but there some subtlety that the Butcher Nails had some Chaos intervention. Every other Primarch had a case of some sort of Greek Tragedy twist to them in some way or another.
Perturabo. Tell him dorn is dead and he needed to improve the imperial palaces defenses
The thing is Pert's strength and weakness is that he will not change a course of action once he has set his mind to it.
iron within iron without
Wouldn't work. Perturabo has a strong need to defeat Dorn, to show that he is better, not just win.
@@adaeptzulander2928 He'd probably revive Dorn just to prove he is better. He will never ever turn loyal because there is still opposition to his great craftsmanship
@@flameknightplayz2939 perturabo raiding the phalanx only to get dorn hand to the DE heamonculi just to get him back
Spoiler: Omegon was never a traitor in the first place.
I dont think the Night Haunter was a true traitor either.
So says magnus....
@@Spacefrisian Konrad is the only traitor primarch where I actually see a tragedy (aside possibly Fulgrim, though Fulgrim just pulled an Arthas). How he was negleted with his visions and boiling insanity. Had he been treated (possibly by tuturing under Sanguinius who shared his gift) he might have not turned traitor in the first place.
You could actually say that Omegon was the traitor of the pair. If they did believe the group of aliens (dont remember their name) then Omegon sabotaging Alpharius' plans and seeming to not help the other traitors could demonstrate him siding with Chaos and that Alpharius was the true loyalist. Or they might both have been loyalists in different ways, or both traitors. Nothing is certain. Nothing except that we all are Alpharius.
@blah blah thanks
fulgrims clone is loyal .. and maybe ... thats where his soul went .
The best way to save angron is to have his adoptive father save him from himself because the only thing angron always wanted was his slave family back not a puppet of khorne
Fulgrim regained control of his body before becoming a daemon prince.
@@kelman727 that was a retcon. And an aweful one at that.
Honestly this is what I'm hoping for. think about it, if fulgrim (y'know the PHOENIX primarch) comes back reborn and his corrupted form still exist we could have loyalist and traitor emperors children go head to head, corrupted fulgrim vs redeemed fulgrim. It'd be the ultimate symbolic battle for humanity's struggle against chaos and their own corruption.
Doesn't count since clone Fulgrim never betrayed Emps.
Personally I would love to see Angron redeemed, his original self was a man who took away others pain, he was not a warrior.
The guy from green mile but a primarch
Only way i see Is take out the nails before It do perma-damage
Angron needs to be killed as a daemon prince then he'll comeback without the nails after that we'll have to see
@@Blace_Steve His mind Is already lost we would have to go to the past wich would be bs or maybe the trazyn way, obtain the real soul and put It in a clone.
@@Blace_Steve i never really understood if he kept the nails or not after his demon transformation
I disagree about Mortarion. He was forced into Nurgle's service and he does things that deliberately go against Nurgle's will. I think given enough of a push he could be swayed against Chaos.
I love the idea of Mortarion freeing Isha to get back at Papa Nurgle. It wouldnt be redemption in the eyes of humanity, but it would be a redemption of a sort.
This. Its not about loyalty to the EMPEROR, its about using his hatred and bitterness to go AWAY from Chaos, particularly if it can be engineered where believe he did it himself, thus, hopefully reducing the odd anger at the Emperor for, yknow, saving his life and abiding to the terms he willingly agreed to.
The fall of Mortarion was the single most retarded thing BL has published in terms of traitor primarchs. Typhon tricks him to do a warp jump. He sees his whole legion get sick and die. So either he stays loyal to a father he despisee and kills his legion and dies or he turns traitor and saves everybody. What a choice ...
Typhon is the most evil in the Death Guard for that treachery.
@@fedupN "hatred and bitterness"? That Thought Contagion is Working Strong
Fulgrim could never be redeemed, but clonegrim on the other hand has potential
Every single part of that book had him acting just like the old Fulgrim, why would he not repeat old mistakes in new places? A decent number of the primarchs could see the future and the crusade still ended in the heresy.
@@tincano-beans2114 Clonegrim now knows what mistakes were made and how they led to disaster. While he would have the uncorrupted Fulgrim's faults he knows what led to those faults, he knows what HAS happened as opposed to what MAY happen.
@@tincano-beans2114 Fulgrim's only mistake was not knowing what chaos was. He was never meant to fall, and the Deamon flat out tells Horus that if it weren't for it whispering in Fulgrim's ear and clouding his thoughts, Fulgrim would never have turned traitor and would have run to the Emperor as soon as he was propositioned by Horus.
Hell, even with the Daemon screwing with his mind, he nearly opened fire on Horus' fleet after being warned by the Eldar about the coming Heresy.
He was an arrogant git, sure, but he only fell due to bad luck and ignorance. Knowing Daemons exist, and that they will try to trick you into damning yourself, means he won't make such an imperfect mistake again.
I still have the theory that his soul never left that painting when that Daemon claimed he was but then it did belated did 1000s of years later and was able to inhabit Fulgrims clone
Aren't the clones weaker tho becuase part of the primarch power comes from the soul this is why abbadon was able to kill clone horus?
Need my IV Legion. Get Perty some participation plaques and a statue and he'll be killing heretics for the Emperor in no time. (Coming from an Iron Warrior)
Iron within!
@@garank4971 Iron Without!
@@hollowparagon1102 the eternal litany may never be broken
Keep faith in the dark gods
@@ClovenOnes o great old one i may in your name with renewed flame of zealosnes
3rd- Don't forget that Fulgrim's perfect clone DID recognize the wrong, held the memories, and felt terrible remorse. I feel that the perfect clone would more perfect than the original would be.
4th- Perturabo never grew up. He was always a child, stayed a child. I think that he is redeemable.
8th- Curze was forgiven by the Emperor, to quote the Big E, "you did nothing wrong". Curze could be redeemed if his father's insight could avail himself of the reality that what he sees is only ONE possibility. I have a pocket theory that GW is planning on Curze's return as a redeemed avenger.
12th- Chaos can keep Angron. Broken, fallen, wicked, and the Emperor couldn't fix Angron before he was this far gone, so he couldn't now.
14th- Mortarion isn't COMPLETELY gone according to his own testimony in the Plague War series. He is trying to justify his actions to Guilliman and convince him. He doesn't love the Warp, Chaos, or that nonsense. I see Mortarion as a strong possibility, especially if the Lion returns and argues the point with him. I think Mortarion is waiting to be convinced because he doesn't really want to be what he is right now. Additionally, he hates Typhus, the chosen of Nurgle, so that will stoke the anger and jealousy chord.
From what I heard, Mortarion was captured and tortured by Nurgle until he agreed to become a daemon primarch. That could point out that Morti never actually wanted to be a traitor, but rather he was forced to become one. If what I said was even canon, or true at all.
@@BanditBayMercs, he was just held becalmed in the warp until his diseased crew would die. Mortarion quit resisting.
@@kingbaldwiniv5409 Thanks for that piece of information, never can know too much about the lore.
None can be redeemed, all of their souls a held by one of the chaos god. And they can't get it back, all you have to do is read the interaction between mortarion and big E. The man sent him back to his master he chose
@@Cyrus-rodn45, the Emperor set a time limit to his being held by Nurgle.
It directly implied that the Emperor COULD remove the infestation.
Mortarion, he just needs loads of soap.
I don't think the Mechanicus can make that much soap
LMAO!!!!
@@blakelowrey9620 or if they still know how
@@edmundthespiffing2920 “soap”, ah yes, I had almost forgotten about that primitive thing needed by primitive flesh. My body now only needs the sacred WD40.
and Vinegar, and soda bicarbonate.
"And knowing Angron, he'd probably find a way to hate the Emperor more, just for removing the Nails."
Well yeah, I mean... what would Angron's response be aside from "You could have removed these Nails THIS ENTIRE TIME?"
Maybe Mortarion could be "cured" of his daemonhood by Isha. I can't see him siding with the Imperium.
The best way to save angron is to have his adoptive father save him from himself because the only thing angron always wanted was his slave family back not a puppet of khorne
Good possibility! Mortarion as the primarch commander of a renegade independent legion.
@@kingbaldwiniv5409 Perturabo should be such commander, but GW fucked him up and made him daemon prince.
Let's say that Leman Russ manage to reach Isha in Nurgle's garden but can only bring back a small flask of a liquid, able to heal a body from any condition (and maybe a bit your soul too).
But while leaving that hellish place, he must face Mortarion. In the following epic duel, the two warriors would be wounded, their armors greatly damage, then the flask is destroyed, splashing the previous liquid on the two primarch.
The fight is over. The Great Wolf will be mad because his goal was to bring back the liquid to the emperor.
Mortarion is just close to him, lost in his mind. He cannot feel the link he used to have with Nurgel, just his body as young as when he took over the responsibility of the XIV legion, and his mind, at peace.
And while Russ, furious, still want to beat him to death, he knows that the more dangerous threat for him would be the journey to find a new place in the universe.
Ok, sold, let's write it.
@@chosenofkhorne2951 Angron can be saved by killing him permanently
We should not forget that there is a full clone of Fulgrim that despises what the original did in killing Ferrous Mannus, and in becoming a demon prince.
So, it doesn't necessarily need to be the original, but the freeing of the clone from Trazen the Infinite.
Eh, Kurze's words to the assassin were more telling than anything else. That the assassin's presence vindicated everything he has said and done. I think the night haunter is gone.
I too think he's just dead.
Curze’s death was confirmed in the book Soul Hunter. Decapitation.
The crown of Curze contains a stone rumored to be a soul transfer Eldar stone. It could contain Curze’s soul and could be transferred to whomever finds and wears it.
The clear case must be Magnus. If his full and hole soul is restored to him, that might help him cast of Tzentzh. But it would also take saving his Legion, and that would be hard.
I believed that until i read battle of the fang and dark imperium. He is lost forever. Even if his sould would be completed that doesnt excuse his action of the last 10k years. Too much blood has been spilled at his hands
@@Meartmans86 You could and should say that about all the Traitor Primarchs. But then again, what 40k character doesn't have lakes worth of blood on their hands.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen True enough.
Magnus doesn't want to be saved though. He wasn't corrupted, he full on defected and switched sides
I would only see a reedemable Magnus if he willingly goes and sits forever on the Golden throne.
Omegon does not need redeeming.
Because he is dead.
@@Stewiehleba Alpharius is dead, long live Alpharius.
@@Stewiehleba no he was an Alpha legion Astartes dressed in Alpharius power armour
Yes
Omegon is Guilliman, Guilliman is Alpharius, and Alpharius is loyal.
Magnus - His loyal shard is essential for Grey Knights geneseed and Imperium.
Release Fulgrims Clone from the Necron Library and let him reforge his legion from the missing (untainted) gene seed! Let a new phoenix rise and defeat his old failures!
The Fulgrim clone is really cool, I think that it would be cool to see the real Fulgrim face against his perfect clone
Agreed battle brother.
But not have it go as stupidly as the horus clone and abandon reunion
@@erichh9073 Lets hope for good writting
I always felt that Fulgrim's clone would take his place when it comes to his redemption.
More of a replacement, rather than a redemption
Redeemed Lord of Iron.
His masterpieces and artistic pursuits as well as his ideas to improve the lives of the people.
lorgar if he finds out the ecclesiarchy's secret
Wait what?
@@antmanthegnome The ecclesiarchy's secret is actually a book written by Lorgar the Lectitio Divinitatus. So basically the imperial cult is based on Lorgar's teaching. Lorgar stated after all first the Emperor is divine, which led to the raising of Monarchia. Quite ironic.
He knows that already.
There’s a short story where Lorgar meets members of the nascent sect before the Siege of Terra.
Na Lorgar's redemption is gonna be his Death when the Ravenlord gets him ...
@@planetoftheweek not that but the loyal word bearer
Come on Guys, if there's one primarch that deserves redemption, it's Magnus.
Wait for part 2
I absolutely 100% agree with this. If all the shards of his soul were brought together and he was forced to go before the emperor and the mistake was explained i think he could be and maybe in 15 years or so GW should redeem him.
If only the Emperor can recover Magnus' soul by "persuading" Tzeentch to give it up. Maybe a little sword poking would do.
@@armida2228 with some funny squeaky sound effects added in.
Alllllll riiight you atrocious fiend, I'll be going...now.
Answer: None. "Loyalty is it's own reward". Lion El Johnson.
Hail the First!
That’s a bit cold for some with amuro’s A as a profile pic
@@cashewmiranda5155 Amuro Ray knew that there were those who stood in the way of a better future for humanity. There is a reason his enemies called him "White Demon".
First, for the Lion! I think Fulgrim could be redeemed as a pre-ascension to Demonhood clone.
I agree
Agreed battle brother. Also maybe perturabo.
@Vulkan Lives This could explain why Clonegrim isn't weak like all the other Primarch clones; he has his soul (or at least a significant portion of it) so in a sense he is more Fulgrim than the daemon one.
I honestly think if he somehow was broken out he would be loyalist; but good luck trying to convince the Imperium that you're good now, and convincing the Iron Hands (as well as any other dropsite massacre Legion) to not kill you.
I don't see Mortarion returning to the imperium's fold but I can see him rebelling against chaos and aiding Robute and the Imperium as the leader of a rogue force of astartes.
Fulgrim: I agree with how far he's gone, it'd too far for him to come back.
Perturabo: It'd need a lot of work, he could though,
Konrad Curze: I don't think so, he was probably gonna turn renegade anyway, due to the neglect Emps gave him, and he's also dead, the Corona Nox theory does seem the most possible for him to come back though.
Angron: Probably not, he's got all of the reasons to be a traitor.
Mortarion: Possibly, and he's not really altered much.
Magnus: Probably, he's got a chance to be redeemed, and he's only traitor due to the fact that it's the fault of Horus, so maybe he'd try and get redemption.
Horus: Well, Emps was able to make it so he was able to recognize all that he had done, he's also dead and his soul was broken on Molech.
Lorgar: I don't care if people want him to be redeemed, he doesn't deserve it, let Corvus kill him.
Omegon: Well, we don't even know if he's even loyalist or traitor.
The best way to save angron is to have his adoptive father save him from himself because the only thing angron always wanted was his slave family back not a puppet of khorne
He will never serve the emperor but he also hate khorne because of the fact humanity suffers he would not be a loyalist but he can become friends with lemon Ross and the empire civilian population because he cares for the weak that was his blood pack with his adopted father never kill the innocent only the psycars
@@chosenofkhorne2951 That's sounds interesting, serving the Imperium, but not his father.
@ Jackson Worthman he can be redeemed but he can't serve the emperor because of what he did with his family but he is not completely corrupted by chaos that would make an interesting character one that is good person but is not a loyalist
Conrad Kurze is a very complicated character, his Personality Split, and his insanity would make things difficult, but that side of him sculpted by the Emperor still exists and lives, it's the reason he Died, Truly a Tragic thing, and so many ways his Character could've remained loyal, some even before his reunion with his Legion and the Emperor,
whilst the First Legion is probably my favourite, Conrad is my favourite Primarch
Magnus, and Perturabo, one just needs a damn hug the other needs to hear a simple thanks for trying. That's about it. The Alpha twins??? Eh who knows, I'm not so sure either is actually a traitor or dead for that matter.
Perturabo is an interesting one cause essentially he had learned so much to the point of stagnation which in return made him arrogant but it also didn't help that essentially Perturabo got shafted along with his legion so they really gave him an axe to grind. As for Magnus....good lord murphy's law ran a fuckin train on him his legion got turned into the rubric marines then horus shafted him even more when he turned russ on him so he just got backed straight into a corner. In retrospect the way i see both is they just got royally shafted to the point where they had no real options left.
@@Horde334 it’s kinda of strange writing. Lorgar got infinite patience, Magnus.... I think daddy’s issue with him is he had seen behind the curtain.
The right answer is perturabo. Him falling to chaos has never made sense
Hoping his story gets retconned as it goes forward. It doesn't fit his character at all. Have him go full renegade? Sure. But follower of Chaos? Not at all.
@@TheJustcae Pert wasn't a follower of anything. Remember, what happened was that Fulgrim tried to sacrifice him to reach his daemon-princehood, which got Pert thinking that, hey, if he could do the same WITHOUT THE SACRIFICE, that'd be awesome. It's a perfectly logical Perturabo-like train of thought. He was basically trying to go the Abaddon path long before Abaddon himself. From the M41 canon we know that this didn't work out quite as he'd anticipated because he's a daemon primarch now, but we still haven't seen how he botched the plan.
when has perturabo ever been good, even before the heresy
Fulgrim. Even his clone is disgusted be his original self
The Night Haunter is a Literary Tool, and Kurz is referencing the "Great Enemy" when he Speaks with the Lion; same as Leman vs Horuz, and some other fights.
If he wasn’t killed Cruze 100% could be redeemed he never turned to chaos in the first place he just enjoyed killing
Remember primarchs souls don’t die Other than Horus that we know of and even part of Horus soul is still in the warp doing his labours I think still for chaos gods .
Curze soul could well be stored in the crown thingy
He was making art projects out of human entrails though. And that was BEFORE he turned traitor.
Insanity could be fixed by the emperor i believe. Just needs his dad
Amazing idea for a series. Looking forward to watching it
That was amazing video :) I would love to see Pertrurabo be redeemed :)
i LOVE these part 1 and so on, plz do more
Imperium is not known for its forgiveness.
but it is known for needing primarchs.
@@yible3278 Ideology vs pragmatism in the Imperium. It is easy to see which would win.
@@zollen123 True. What with idiots wanting to kill ppl like Ephrael Stern and Cypher instead of just figuring out how they work.
@@yible3278 both aré the coolest double agents.
@@LeónSantiaguino tru
If gw ever closes out their story, maybe aos style, I actually def see some redemptions in the cards. Maybe every single one. I would actually love that.
What a fantastic video, you really got me thinking about the Primarchs.
Angron - I don't think so, for the Emperor would have to make some serious admissions about what he himself did wrong and how he wishes to fix it. And Angron in his turn would have to be able to listen long enough to be persuaded to allow his father to work on doing so. It's not likely alas.
Mortarion? I don't think that he has any great motivation to become loyal once again - he just doesn't really seem to care about anything enough. As befits a follower of the god of Despair, I suppose.
Perturabo might do it for the exact reasons you said, if the Emperor can just tap into his need to be loved _and_ express his love for his son. In fact, this would go a long way towards mending any of his relationships with his sons ...
Cloned Fulgrim would be fully loyal without a doubt, if he just got the right opportunities. He already hates the memory of what his otherself did. However as for Original Recipe Fulgrim - he not only doesn't care for anything except indulging in excess, he also still (at least at the point the short story _Imperfect_ was written) has the daemon inside his head, still trying to influence what he does. But. Fulgrim has an insecure side, and if the Emperor manages to tap into that self-doubt then he might get him questioning his choices enough to make him see that he should be loyal again.
Konrad - what can I say, I agree with what you said about the Night Haunter and it breaks my heart. All I can add is that he doesn't want to come back. If he could somehow be saved as well as resurrected? I don't know. Perhaps if the Emperor taught him about his visions and powers this time.
With the speed the lore is written, sometimes I wonder how much I will be able to read of the actual lore before I die... I mean, new codexes, new lore comes out so rarely that I will be happy to live to see the comeback of even one loyal primarch. let alone see traitor primarchs redeem themselfs.
My question is, which of the loyal Primarchs could still turn traitor? How about those out on their quests in the Warp return to find Roboat in charge?!? Or if they find out what Cawl have been cooking up, diddling with Daddy Emperors grand design.
Love the uploads Wolf.
You mean the Wolf and the Crow? Maybe the Wolf Will return full wulfen but the Crow i doubt, even warped as he Is.
Your videos have really helped me get through into the books and the lore. I just finished Aurelian and The First Heretic. I personally think Lorgar would be an amazing redemption arch.
I kind of think Magnus is a possibility. He originally felt regret for his actions (because Magnus did many things wrong), and was betrayed by his brothers. If the emperor met with him and revealed that he never ordered Leman Russ to kill him, but to bring him back to Terra alive. I think Magnus would begin to see how he had been deceived for so long.
Kurze never saw beyond his own death with his foresight. If he were brought back, I think he would be freed from his foresight and possibly his insanity.
interesting, I like this idea. It would show him, that you can overcome fate and that there is always another path, which was his only shortcoming. well, he had it rough unlike most of the other Primarchs. Maybe he got even the shortest stick, so with guidance, he can 100% be redeemed.
The Horus Heresy boils down to the Emperor being a really poor father figure, and being so far removed from humanity, and even his own sons, that he couldn't compute human nature into his plans anymore
that's a fantastic picture of Perturabo there at 3:36. Could you tell me where you found it?
Konrad is a lil tricky one, he was/still is the incarnation of the emperor's sense of justice. The night hunter may have took over but what if Curze was fighting him off all the time ? What if, despite the amount of abominable mayhem that happened it was still but a fraction of what the night hunter could have done ( with Konrad weakening him all the time in the background ). In the end the lad wanted but wellness and order. However a demigod, he was left with plaguing visions, an entire legion of psychos on power-armored steroids and a fu*king bipolar primarch other half harassing him like my bills do. That and the betrayal of his main project ( mending up Nostromo)... I mean I saw ppl getting insane for a lil less than that ^^ ps; your videos are top notch man ! Absolutely enjoy them !
Clone Fulgrim! Let's get clone fulgrim back!
Timing is impeccable
I'm a tts fan, so redeemed magnus would be cool imo
_[Imperatoris Risus]_ Give me the soul, give me the soul, give me the soul *squeaky sounds are heard as the Emperor pokes Tzeentch* .....
What I find interesting is that while some of the traitor primarchs couldn't be redeemed but it is still possible for them to rebel against chaos
+Wolf Lord Rho
@Wolf Lord Rho
4:30 - An alternative road to redemption could be that Perturabo learns of the role played by the Word Bearers in orchestrating the revolt on Olympia. Possibly from Omegon going to him and giving him evidence. Perturabo, I think, will have been stewing in his miseries for the ten-thousand years after the Horus Heresy. He'd been so sure of his own convictions, yet at the end of the day and for all of that time: he is still unhappy, surrounded by bigger philistines than anyone on Olympia had been, for ten thousand years in the Eye of Terror. Still unable to build the wonders he wished to. Still bereft of any affection, still bereft of appreciation.
I think that *_that,_* combined with learning that he'd been manipulated by Chaos and the Word Bearers, would result in Perty leaving Chaos behind, taking his Iron Warriors, and going off to some random corner of the galaxy, and founding his own little kingdom- finally being able to build and construct his creations as he wishes, with no one to tell him what to do.
Perturabo always just needed someone that cares.
The problem is just that it'll never be the Emperor.
Otherwise he's totally redeemable, he's just pissed.
Yep. I agree on Perturabo. The Heresy series really made me come to like him. His fall seems the most tragic and most avoidable.
Iron within! Iron without!
They don't deserve our sympathy.. they chose they're path.... Let them burn for their sins the emporium has know room for weekness
Big E: come back to the light, my sun.
Fulgrim: UWU daddy, make me repent.
The way they described fulcrum as being a soul kept in the back tied up watching the demon control the body means he could possibly come back, maybe even have his sound transfered in to one of the clones, but instead of his old flaws of pleasure and perfection he may have gone utterly nuts after so long.
I think currently could go full neutral, fighting everyone he meets rather than sidingwith the emperor
have you done a video about the primarchs supposed roles for after the great crusade?
This is a long and exhausting way for games workshop to tell people to just be a good dad.
@Wolf Lord Rho can u do this tournament but in the form of a psyker face off for exsample magnus vs Malcador
My favorite parts about the early horus heresy books are when the Emperors Children start their fall. Reading about the Noise Marines on Istvaan was amazing. Plus the Kurze primarch book really makes it seem like Kurze feels like an inferior Corax.
Perturabo is my second favorite primarch. He was driven to be a traitor over guilt for his actions and I wish he could gain a level of closure for it. Having lost my father when I was young, I don’t know what I would do if I felt he’d never approve of or forgive me for a mistake I did.
A Clone Fulgrim taking one of those death oaths to redeem himself would be dope AF
The one I think would be the most interesting is Lorgar. It seems like he has been set up as a fallen true believer in the Horus Heresy novels and a reversal of that would be a fantastic change for the modern setting. Making a primarch head of the Ecclesiarchy and a foil for Guilliman would make for interesting tension - far more than any loyalist primarch returning.
Maybe Guilliman reading the lectitio divinatus is a sign?
Magnus gets his humanity restored via wherever Malc hid it, purges the deamon by himself, takes the golden throne so the Emperor can die, be reborn and start the new Crusade...to bring the fight to Chaos
Malc placed it in Janus. There is no good shard of Magnus left. All that was went to Janus.
isnt Clonegrim the Primarch he should have been as opposed to DaemonGrim?
I wanna hear more about the Fulgrim clone. Imagine if the rumored loyalist primarch to return would be the clone! What a curveball that would be.
I like the observation of how Prince Fulgrim is the furthest removed from what he once was. Where the other gods used there power to exaggerate what the other primarchs where, Slaanesh turned Fulgrim into the polar opposite of what he once was💜
I feel like almost as relevant as the lore of who can be redeemed (which you discussed here) Is the story potential. Ultimately anything is possible but what feels like a good story for a return? An example would be: were a primarch to return, which would be most opposing to Guilliman to open up conflict space there. Another angle could be choosing the Primarch with the most emotional impact. I think for example an Angron redemption arc including some sort of resurrection or cloning and conflict with his demon prince form would be a great story. To stay in the Warhammer theme you could make it a big trade and then let a seed of corruption remain in him placed by Khorne or whatnow.
Lorgar - after having spent 10,000 years in seclusion trying to study the nature of the chaos gods, he finally understands. He senses the emergence of a new power, the Emperor, transcending into a new god within the warp. Since Lorgar had always sought to serve the highest power, he abandons chaos to become an avatar of the Emperor.
Before Filgrim's sword i would say Fulgrim, which is why the clone is so interesting. I really can't see Perterabo coming back to big E, he couldn't even let his adopted brother have a win without lashing out.
I am looking forward to Perturabo redemption scene in TTS.
You'll keep looking forward to it for a loooong time, my man
@@MrManueldx /sadoge
I totally agree with fulgrim irredimability here, his fall was far different from that of his brothers. He jumped on that pool head first and through his own means, and he relishes on it like noone else. The rest of his brothers were more or less dragged, decieved or misleaded to damnation in comparisson.
Of this batch my money's on Fulgrim, his corruption was the most subtle and raises more questions if he was clear of mind.
The thing you have to remember is that *everything* is canon, and *nothing* is true. Every single Primarch (including the dead ones) could flip sides and it wouldn't be a bigger "retcon" or "change" than things that have already been retconned.
Although the focus on Perturabo led me down an interesting thought-path. One thing that comes to mind, if you abandon the rules of narrative and "epicness" is that Perturabo's story (which I had straight-up forgotten the current canon) is the fact that even after his fall he doesn't really like, believe in, or care about the chaos gods and he had his memories wiped.
He has little interest in the ruinous powers and no real sense of wonder or goal beyond disaffected tantrum-y destruction, but more than that he is believed to have grown up learning and fighting and monster slaying but lost all memory of that; having his first awakening memory halfway up a cliffside with a head full of knowledge and the baleful Eye of Terror staring at him. An gaze he felt keenly.
If I were writing his story of...not-quite-redemption I would tell the tale of his ascension. Plumbing the depths of the warp and the streams of time within Perturabo would find the hidden memories of when the chaos gods meddled with his mind to wipe out his history and moreover he would find discrete and measuable methods of warp entities, from demons to gods. He would take the Emperor's unformed child, the chaos god of Unbelief and consume it, becoming a literal "god of Atheism" who drew strength from rationalism and thought. He would, in so doing, be an automatic ally to the Emperor's original doctrine of The Imperial Truth.
But you see, that kind of thing wouldn't really fit in 40k as it is.
I would love a variant of the TTS redemption for Mangus. Just for giggles. It’s my favorite part of that series.
“ Hi, Trazyn, give back my loyal piece of Fulgrim clone”
“ he’s my collection, you want him, pay me something back”
“ How about my very original golden throne!”
“Well, I am ok with it, but are you sure? that’s a compulsory part of your precious empire”
“If I am fucking awake, and have Robert and Fulgrim aside me, I don’t need the big toilet anymore.”
Fulgrim- Gets is a** kicked by his clone, realizes he has strayed away from the perfection he was meant to embody and and kills him selves as telling his clone to pass his regrets on to The Emperor.
Angron -The Emperor apologizes for leaving his friends to die, the Krone forces to do something so horrible, it awakens his sense of honor, and he tears the Butcher Nails out himself (if anything can survive that, a Deamom Primarch could).
Actually, the Emperor tried to take out the Butcher Claws from Angron, but couldn't. (it's in one of the 1st Terra Siege or maybe one of the last Horus Heresy).
I hope you'll do a Primarch reverse loyalty after this one. I could perfectly see Angron as the War Dancer, whirlwhiling in the middle of his enemy, deadly and untouch, instead of just face fronting mindlessly everything.
Okay so to do list:
1: put Fulgrim in a deprivation chamber
2: have big brother Bobby G give Purterabo a few decades long hug in the throne room, hope big daddy E feels like chatting at some point during that few decades
3: get Klonerad Kurayze a therapist
4: Angron... Clonegron
How I imagine the scene in my head of a perturabo redemption. Perturabo leads a combined iron warriors and demon host to terra breaking into the palace and defeating a good chunk of the imperial fists and maybe even crippling or capturing the phalanx along the way (satisfying his ego grudge against dorn and his sons) and with the last bit of the custodes and sons of dorm holding the throne room the emperor comes to Perturabo in a vision/psychic projection and forgives him for destroying Olympia and even for aiding with Horus by Acknowledging that while a primarchs he is still fallible and never meant to be perfect or infallible (addressing GB perturabos belief that the emperor would never forgive him). The scene culminates with the emperor saying “you are my son, my lord of iron and while iron may Bend it never breaks” (again touching on forgiveness but mainly finally acknowledging perturabo as not only his son but a trusted and valued individual) perturabo then turns on the demons and his more “lost” sons saving the emperor and the palace. Fin
Wolf - have you noticed that your videos as well as the other big 40K channels have all been following a similar theme, which revolves around Redemption and parallels to what is currently happening right now?
If this was not planned then it is very suspicious.
Also, Emperor text-to-speech number 29 had Concepts that I had been thinking of and writing about four months, and is very symbolic from an end-of-days standpoint
Its becouse we all want the primarchs back fellow battle brother.
End of Days: mere religious concept.
@@kelman727 nope, everyone who understands death has wonder about the end, that religións greatly profits from this is just the way religións are.
@@LeónSantiaguino I Will See What I Can Do
@@paulsegers1880 maybe send me the text when you finish It to read it.
Well done rho totally agree with you specially about the Lord of iron I think he 100% would be amazing to see come back
I can see Mortarion almost becoming that of a 3rd party. Growing a hatred towards Nurgle in the same way that he resents the Emperor.
I kinda like the the idea that there were meant to be the five (Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Undivided) and each aspect of Chaos gets its champion. Lorgar being the weakest Primarch, now serving the strongest chaos entity really works well for me. That's leaves 4, 2 of whom are dead. Down to Omegon and Perturabo, both of whom could be turned back (or possibly never was turned).
Fulgrim and Magnus are special, as they both are multiples (clones and shards, respectively) so I guess they could also be redeemed in some way.
That is why i am still on the bandwagon of the "Vulcan is gone helping Curze heal his mind and will come back with him." Theory. I know it is far far fetched but i want it so much hehe.
On understanding Konrad Curze it really helped that I’ve just finished the Night Lords trilogy by ADB. His gifted (cursed) son seems to be reasonable sometimes but other times a tired monster. He blindly follows fate because he says it’s inevitable. The beleif he adopts from Curze. Although sometimes contradicts by saying that the future is not set, not carved in stone... Man, the Night Lords are clinically insane. Even if Curze returns, his insanity has no cure. Nor his sons contradictory deeds and words. He cannot be redeemed because he’s going to make up his mind when he gets another seizure and do something senseless and cruel that is totally not in line with what the Imperium stands for. The Imperium is an insane and oppressive state but it’s a different kind of madness. At least most times it’s predictable and there’s a sense of order. Konrad Curze always broke. And went against order. He even got bored with darkness. He could not tolerate it though he knew that’s just him. The need and effort for redemtion might be there but insanity makes it much harder to maintain.
I see mortarion as the child that tries to prove himself but couldn't do it, so the father comes in and just did it himself instead of helping him. So now he rebels and just gets spanked for it because it's the only Form of affection he knows. He's still trying to help humanity but does many mistakes on the way.
Kurz would be very interesting to return, but I can't see how Batman would fit into the current universe very well, or even how it would work in the tabletop.
Could you do a vid on what the primarchs where supposed to "be" (like curz beeing the judge of the empire). Can't seem to find any vids on it
A clone of Angron could be interesting but I can't love another clone until Clone Fulgrim's story is expanded upon
What i wouldn't give to read:
"Roused from his contemplation, Guilliman sensed that he was not alone, truly not alone, he felt something he had not technically felt for millenia, and could not help but doubt it. "I know you are there" he said almost impatiently wanting the feeling to be true, but dreading the implications. "Of course you do." said the voice matter of factly, though to Guilliman there were audible hints resignation, deep sorrow and posdibly joy beneath the dry tone. The voice belonged to a primarch, a brother, he could tell even through the distortion of a vox grill - and only a primarch could make their way this deeply into the Imperial palace without detection. A figure stepped from an alcove in his private chambers, and Guilliman's fists clenched, as the figures scaled battle plate and crested serpent helm came into view. "I killed you!", he hissed but remained unmoving, sensing no hostility or immediate danger. "We both know, you never belived that. But you did set me free" said the figure reaching for his Helm. "You are traitor, nothing has changed that" stated Guilliman flatly, an old anger rearing it's unsightly head. "And we both know i that would not't be standing here if that was the hard truth of it, but i have wronged you and for that i am honestly sorry, i acted as necessary." Guilliman reeled at this, it was true that little could enter the palace without their father allowing it, but what threw him most was the apology. "You are a traitor, a heretic even", though shuddered to use the word. You are Alpharius and have never known honesty, let alone remorse! Guilliman spat, but something was amiss, the demeanor didn't quite fit. With a hiss brother that seemed to last an age, his erstwhile brother removed his helmet. Lifting his clean shaven head to stare the brother, that for all intents and purposes hated him and all represented, in the eyes and said solemnly almost unsure of it, like a new taste he was just experiencing, "I am Omegon".
I dunno. Alpha Legion, even before the Heresy, acted like a chaos warband that got their jollies out of spreading panic, chaos and disarray among foes, even in situations that could have been resolved without violence. Most of the other legions ranged from dislike to outright hatred towards them because of that, and I think it didn't get any worse than that only because Horus himself valued them, and even that lasted until he was starting to believe they're getting out of his control - might have led to something more drastic if not for the Heresy.
@@MetaL556 Too true, but (spoilers) they were already divided in the heresy with Omegon sabotaging many of Alpharius' schemes and then dissappearing after "Alpharius" second death. Many of those self same warbands still see themselves as acting loyal to the imperium by culling weak elements, but again with no noted input from their primarch. And who knows how many loyal chapters my sneaky hydra brothers have adopted the mantle of.
It is but a hope though
@@MetaL556 Ultimately the not knowing is the joy of the Alpha legion
Of all traitor Primarchs, Maggy has the biggest chances since his entire fall was something he never asked for and it was a combination of Tzeentch shenanigans and him being desperate as hell to save his sons and what little of the people of Prospero remained. That and Alpharius and Omegon never betrayed the Imperium...maybe. We'll never know.
In the grimdark of the grimdark game, nothing not grimdark is ever allowed to happen.
Konrad Curze’s emotional reaction to the Emperor was kind of undercut by the fact that he was talking to a giant effigy of his father that he had sculpted out of meat... Yeeeeeah. There’s clearly A LOT of baggage to unpack there...
None of them. They are TRAITORS!
By the way I have been thinking this for a while, your background images are wonderful.
Man, if Kurze was not killed by the assassin but sedated and put back in the stasis pod he came in, he would be the best to redeem if you could prevent him from killing himself. if he woke up in the 42nd millenium. maybe having the worst already happen, the future he feared already come to pass, maybe he would find new purpose and seek his redemption.
Why didn’t you start the list off with lion el johnson? If you’re doing it in order
Here's the plan:
1) Use Emperor's warp magic and father-to-son pep talk to remove chaos taint in Pert and the bois.
2) Offer joint contract of renovating Imperial Palace and the Imperium to Pert & Sons Construction Pte. Ltd. and Dorn's Builders Inc.
3) Tell imperial fists and iron warriors to share their lego bricks and play nice.
4) Make Imperium Great Again, but suffer a lost of revenue due to GW's story being less grimdark.
Ironically I think fulgrim is the most likely to return loyal because of his clone. It would be amazing to see a loyalist fulgrim clone obsessed with eliminating the original fulgrim
Cruze is the only Primarch who choose to be a traitor by his own admission. Didn't need any persuading or Chaos influences. He's the only one that is irredeemable, because that what he choice. I would put Angron, but there some subtlety that the Butcher Nails had some Chaos intervention. Every other Primarch had a case of some sort of Greek Tragedy twist to them in some way or another.