I just wanted to come here and say that I very much appreciate you explaining Inferno in this way. I have watched your explanations of the first 5 Cantos so far and you make them understandable in a way that I have yet to find anywhere else. It's like having a conversation and I am so glad I've found your channel.
Hi Tom. Catching up with you and Dante today. I loved the avian metaphors in this canto. Here in Brighton we have vast flocks of starlings that form murmurations over the sea at dusk. They weave in and out of extraordinary shapes. So this image was particularly vivid for me and brought this part to life.
These avian metaphors took my breath away . Made it so vivid for me ...! Dante is genius ..he references familiar biblical tropes to anchor the reader and also copies the way the Bible makes things very personal and less mythic with the contemporary story of the lovers ...it's interesting that it's Francesca who offers the explanation ...is Dante echoing Eve's contribution and action in the story of the fall , again something Dante's readers would be familiar ...?? Why is the man silent ...? I love the way we feel compassion for the two lovers ...and Dante's self critique of courtly love is something I wouldn't have picked up without your help ...the repetition of rhymes widely distanced to act as an aural prompt for the reader is also a biblical device , at least in the Hebrew Bible , something that Robert Alter's recent translation emphasises ..
I know you made these videos some time ago but I am reading this book for the first time now and it is helping me very much. I am really loving the book, your videos are really helping me understand and think. Thank you!
Thanks so much Caroline for taking the time to comment… These older videos still feel a little “cringy” to me because of all the “huhh” and “hmmms”, but hopefully the content comes across : )
Sono ripetitiva, ma comunque voglio ringraziare ancora per il regalo gratuito e meraviglioso che ci ha fatto con questo progetto, Tom 🙏🏻 ora mi taccio 😅
Thanks so much for making those videos! They are very insightful! I'm reading Inferno now, only on Canto 8, so a lot still ahead but I'm taking it slowly, I will definitely watch your videos for each canto :)
Another great installment, thank you! I didn't know the whole background with Francesca. Though it rings a bell, I must have forgotten over the years. Reading all about it now.
Right : ) Thanks John. In the description I included the link to a video of actor Roberto Benigni reading this canto. He is wonderful and he can convey the music of these lines for anyone, even if one doesn’t speak Italian.
Love that the number of coils of the tail by Minos equates to the level in hell. What a perfect example of “show don’t tell”. See mandelbaum’s text page 46 for a visual. Musa in his last comment on page 55 notes the distinction between Dante the fictional pilgrim and Dante the poet who wrote the commedia and they shouldn’t be confused. Now I’m even more confused …. How do you handle this distinction when reading this work.
In my native town (Trento) there is a big monument dedicated to Dante, with Minos sitting at the bottom with his tail going around him, very impressive. I showed it in my video about canto 11 but you can find it if you search “Dante monument trento”. Musa’s comment about Dante the poet and Dante the pilgrim is correct, but they are not two different people: it’s always him, only in 2 different times and places: 1300 ad in the “afterlife” for the pilgrim vs. 1315/20 in Italy for the poet. Many references in the Comedy will shock the pilgrim, but not the poet, because the poet already knows what has happened in those years.
@@judithhorwitz8671 There will be many later on, for example when some souls will talk to Dante the pilgrim about his upcoming exile from Florence as a prophecy in their fictional 1300, while Dante the poet is writing knowing far too well about his exile.
Enjoyed this conversation Tom! What can you tell me about how frencesca used love to almost manipulate Dante’s pity? Struggling to understand this importance.
The main difference is that, while Dante’s pity is part of his spiritual growth, therefore it’s really a mistake that he will grow out of during the rest of his journey, Francesca’s error is crystallized forever in hell. She is not trying to elicit a particular reaction from Dante. She is expressing her own genuine feelings about her love. The fact that she takes no personal responsibility at all (like all the souls in hell, they all blame someone else for their condition) doesn’t show that she is trying to manipulate Dante, but that she is lying to herself. By giving in to adulterous love, simply following her instincts without any sense of direction or responsibility (let alone, divine guidance) she has put herself before God, and she will continue to do so forever. This is what many people do even today, when they say “There’s nothing I could do, I fell in love and I had to leave my family”. Those people make the same mistake of Francesca’s of elevating sensual passion to a god in itself, instead of understanding that God comes first. I hope this is clear enough….
@@tomlabooks3263 this does help a lot. Since a lot of the “narrators” throughout hell try to misrepresent him. How does Francesca do this then? By expressing her genuine love although she doesn’t feel any responsibility for wrong doing?
I always agreed with Virgil's rebuke of Dante here; Francesca paints their offence very sympathetically as "we couldn't help it, it just happened" but what she describes is that they deliberately put themselves in the way of temptation and chose their affair
Hi Mary, sorry I am replying with some delay. I agree with you, I think Dante wants to paint an unrepentant Francesca and that is, in itself, a crucial key to understand why she is in this circle of hell.
It was great to get some context here, because I’ve never come across Francesca’s story. It is interesting how the deed is so clearly separated from sinfull thoughts and how it leads to disproportional consequences. There seems, however, to be more proportion between consequences of different deeds as Francesca’s husband ends up far deeper in hell.
“Caina attende” means that Francesca’s husband will end up in the deepest level - or bottom - of hell, stuck in ice. So you’re right, everything is calibrated with an almost scientific precision. Thanks for watching, Dario!
Line 90 is the one I am wondering about, where Francesca says "...to visit us who stained the world with blood" (Musa) and it makes me wonder if bloodletting in some way is a hallmark of the sinners in this part of the inferno. And if not, why does she say that?
She says that because by “us” she means herself and Paolo, not all the sinners of Lust. They were a particular couple in that their affair led to bloodshed.
@@tomlabooks3263 🙏Thank you for taking the time to reply. Your answer makes sense! It had me wondering because so many (but not all) of the other examples seemed to be related to bloody events in some way.
Don't play down your contribution Tom. You can count yourself amongst all those sense-makers over these hundreds of years. Love that love has appeared - and the story of Paolo and Francesca fascinating. Thanks for the Roberto link - I found myself giving him a standing ovation myself! Una domanda piccola....the many references to wind (is that the hurricane of Hell?)
Ahh thanks so much 🙏🏻 Yes Roberto is just magnificent isn’t he? As for the wind, it seems like Dante sourced this contrappasso punishment idea from an image he found in Aristotle’s Nichomachean Ethics, where Big Brain Aristotle said that the sin of love / lust is “like a wind that carries you”, because it’s as if a force outside of yourself was carrying you. I didn’t read Aristotle’s Ethics and I don’t plan to : ) but this is pretty solid as I read many scholars say this.
@@penelopemavor7825 Haha yes of course 😂 my scholars mention was limited to Aristotle being Dante’s source for this imagery. Hope you had a good weekend. On to another week ... 👋🏼🤗
I find the part about Paolo continuously weeping a bit strong as well. Dante chose to make him the more submissive/distraught of the two. I feel as though that Paolo felt horrible for his decision to have an affair with his brother's wife and it costed him his life. The continuous weeping is wishing he could repent for this because he feels bad for this decision, whereas Frenceska doesn't feel sorry because she was driven to that point by her husband. Paolo now must spend an eternity in damnation of agony with this decision and regrets it while Frenceska simply doesn't regret the decision.
Yes, great point. Paolo is often coming across as a secondary character, but he certainly is not. His presence is very powerful in the canto. As for his not being to repent, that’s a very insightful comment : in Dante’s Hell, as in general in the christian hell, no one is “repentant”. Damned souls can be sorry, regretful, etc. but never “for the right reasons”, because you will notice that they invariably pin their fate to something external, never to themselves (as they should do). So yes, the inability to repent is causing Paolo constant pain, but at the same time, as a damned soul, he is unable to see and admit his full responsibility. Very tragic indeed!
hey tom could you suggest, from an academic point of view, what a student should keep in mind while preparing for the inferno (esp canto 1-4)? like what are the main things that most question papers include? i absolutely adore your teaching style btw
I don’t think the question papers would pick any topic that I didn’t touch on in my videos. Purpose of Dante’s journey, why Virgil, and initial doubts of Dante.
Your exposition about Dante's own relation to courtly love was very helpful. There is one line that you may perhaps be able to help me with, 103-105. Love, who no loved one pardons love's requite, seized me for him so strongly in delight..."
Hi Ros. I'm using the Musa translation which reads: "Love, that excuses no one loved from loving, seized me so strongly with delight in him that, as you see, he never leaves my side." In essence it seems like she is using the courtly formula of the three "Love" tercets to excuse their affair. 1. He was seized by lust; 2. I wanted him because he wanted me; 3. our giving in to lust was our undoing. Just like the winds in hell that buffet them about like birds, she shows how they gave in to their passions, but (according to Musa) she tries to disguise the sins of lust and infidelity by using high falutin courtly love poetry language. I love how Tom goes between the two translations to clarify their differences.
@@TootightLautrec thanks. Your translation makes more sense. I suppose mine was trying to maintain the repetition of the word love, but ended up losing the meaning for me.
Thanks Tootight Lautrec for answering Ros’s question. I never read the medieval booklet by Andrea Cappellanus that I quote in the video, but apparently that’s where all these formulas about love were collected. Thank you both for the continued interest! This is a book that literally contains the whole world : )
A word comes up in line 133--riso--which I wish you could talk about. In English there's a big difference between a smile and laugh: a laugh is something you hear, a smile is something you see. But I gather the distinction in Italian isn't that clear. Ridere and sorridere seem to be almost interchangeable. Is that right? In English translations Beatrice is never allowed to laugh, but sometimes--Purgatorio 6.48 and Paradiso 31.134 for example, I would really like her to. Am I wrong? Thanks very much.
Hi Jon, you’re absolutely right. In modern Italian, ridere is to laugh and sorridere is to smile. But Dante’s “riso” can mean both, especially “smile” (as we find in Purg. 21, 106). Canto 5 is the only place in Inferno where this word is mentioned, while it will show up more and more in Purgatory and Paradise. Dante had written in his “Convivio” about a type of riso that is impolite (our “loud laugh”), which he compared to the sound of a chicken : ) I might be wrong but my guess is that in our imagination we are allowed to see Beatrice “laugh” a couple of times in Paradise, but always very gently and never loudly (or, even less, like a chicken). I’m sure it has to do with the fact that a laugh is an instinct that can come out without any control, while a smile requires a certain measure and discipline. This is a fascinating topic - I know that several philosophers that Dante had access to had addressed it, so he was surely influenced by his readings as well.
@@tomlabooks3263 Wow. Thanks very much. I suspected that it might be something like that, but you've made it very clear. I dimly remember reading something about the chicken-laugh, but I didn't really understand it. The crowd of young ladies, some of whom (apparently) laugh at Dante in Vita Nuova, seemed to suggest that it was sometimes (just barely) OK for a lady to laugh in public. I'm glad that I can be allowed to hear a gentle laugh from Beatrice sometimes.
I am always troubled by the Catholic disdain for the body. Dante is so good at embodying the Pilgrim, and his fainting fits, along with the senses that are stimulated/assaulted as he goes through hell, really vivifies the experience. Perhaps my sin is that I also have difficulty separating the intellect from the physical senses that guide my decisions. (Gut instinct, et cetera). Living a life guided only by hard, cold intellect seems like an equally egregious sin. I'm hoping this comes up later on. I am enjoying reading along with you and the other people here so much.
Thanks for watching. This is a point that I wish I was able to express more clearly ... Dante follows St. Thomas quite closely so that’s where his main theological principles come from. By orienting love through intellect they did not mean living a life guided only by intellect, but rather by a balanced mix of “heart and mind”, to use a modern expression, and to consider the love for your partner as subordinate to the love for God. Under this christian viewpoint, listening to your passions and instincts is not considered wrong, but it needs to be balanced with respect for the sacrament of marriage. A modern Paolo or Francesca would be a married person who keeps having extra-marital affairs based on the fancy of the day. But if we step out of the christian framework, that’s how someone very passionate might lead their life. The great J. Borges, commenting on Canto V, thought Dante was envious / jealous of Francesca and Paolo, because even if they are in hell, at least they get to stay together for eternity (while he was missing Beatrice). I love how this book opens up an endless number of discussions, and certainly not only christian ones. Thanks again.
Also (second part of my reply : ) ) - do you know the speech “This is water” by David Foster Wallace, that I quoted at the end of my introductory video? He talked about human beings as natural worshipping beings, and said that if we choose to worship any “thing” outside of God, Allah, Buddah, etc. that thing will sooner or later “eat us alive”. I find that a very deep concept. “Love for another person” in itself, as high as it is, is in Dante’s opinion not worth of being the thing that we worship above all others. Here it is: th-cam.com/video/PhhC_N6Bm_s/w-d-xo.html
@@tomlabooks3263 Thanks, Tom. I understand and sympathize with the idea balance, but I am perpetually intrigued by the strangeness of Catholicism's obsessions with the body--which is why there are there are so many great saint stories. Also, Dante does corporeal corruption here so very well! I also can't help but think of Augustine's famous pre-conversion prayer "Lord, give me chastity, but not yet."
@@tomlabooks3263 Thanks for the link. Even having read only a few of his essays and some short stories, I can say love everything I've read of DFW, and look forward to watching this. As a Catholic educated atheist (and by the way I loved my Catholic education) when one talks of God, I think of the omnipresent, omniscient god exemplified by the phrase "God is everything." In that conception, anything separated out from the great Everything, and not recognized as a part of the great Everything cheapens it and will lead to trouble. In this way, Thinking of it this way helps me see how Francesca and Paolo separated their passion out of the greater picture of a stable society. Still, pity me a poor sinner who sympathizes with the passionate (as I guess the Pilgrim does as well, not having seen the light.) This also makes the reading experience so satisfying: we become like the Pilgrim meeting aspects of ourselves as we go through the Inferno.
How would we know that Francesca cheated on her husband if history about her was lost or never known? Or if someone was just blindly reading Canto V? I don't get it because it was never explicitly said that she cheated on her husband. It just said that they died suddenly after reading the French book together.
As with every non-major event of the Middle Ages, it’s difficult for historians to find unequivocal documentation that proves the story of Paolo and Francesca. History can only demonstrate that their families existed and that “Gianciotto” was married to Francesca and then he married another woman shortly thereafter. However, Dante is not the only one who referred to their story in Italian literature. Above all, Giovanni Boccaccio is the author who wrote about Paolo and Francesca, and he corroborated Dante’s version of the events, while being more specific about the actual murder.
@tomlabooks3263 Good day, thank you so much for responding, my head was itching since awaiting you. Maybe there is a more fundamental misunderstanding for me. Is there a name for this literary device? It would've been impossible to "infer" that the sin was mainly due to infidelity. It seemed they were simply in love and were killed for simply reading a book together. Additonally, there was no mention of the killer being Fransesca's husband, explicitly. My point is that a blind reader is not a "historian." Unless I am missing the point of "reading books." I am a beginner of reading classical literature. Should I interpret "reading" classics as "going beyond" the text in the book and requiring a historical understanding to infer such things, as the above scenario?
@@TheAncientColossus I absolutely understand your point, and the answer to your question is “yes”! That is, in fact, what reading and studying the classics is very much about. I would also add that our modern sensitivity would expect Dante to simply tell us “they did this (had intercourse) and therefore they were murdered for jealousy”, but Dante’s writing, especially since it’s in poetry, very often leaves its deep meaning unsaid. The allusion is sufficient, and it was sufficient in his times for everyone to understand what he was talking about, because this was a famous event, let’s say for example like someone today referring to Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, something that everyone knows about.
I just wanted to come here and say that I very much appreciate you explaining Inferno in this way. I have watched your explanations of the first 5 Cantos so far and you make them understandable in a way that I have yet to find anywhere else. It's like having a conversation and I am so glad I've found your channel.
That’s wonderful to hear ! Thanks for your kind comment.
Hi Tom. Catching up with you and Dante today. I loved the avian metaphors in this canto. Here in Brighton we have vast flocks of starlings that form murmurations over the sea at dusk. They weave in and out of extraordinary shapes. So this image was particularly vivid for me and brought this part to life.
That’s beautiful ! I was in Brighton a couple of times, lovely place.
These avian metaphors took my breath away . Made it so vivid for me ...! Dante is genius ..he references familiar biblical tropes to anchor the reader and also copies the way the Bible makes things very personal and less mythic with the contemporary story of the lovers ...it's interesting that it's Francesca who offers the explanation ...is Dante echoing Eve's contribution and action in the story of the fall , again something Dante's readers would be familiar ...?? Why is the man silent ...? I love the way we feel compassion for the two lovers ...and Dante's self critique of courtly love is something I wouldn't have picked up without your help ...the repetition of rhymes widely distanced to act as an aural prompt for the reader is also a biblical device , at least in the Hebrew Bible , something that Robert Alter's recent translation emphasises ..
@@hesterdunlop7948 I felt the same about this beautiful canto.
I know you made these videos some time ago but I am reading this book for the first time now and it is helping me very much. I am really loving the book, your videos are really helping me understand and think. Thank you!
Thanks so much Caroline for taking the time to comment… These older videos still feel a little “cringy” to me because of all the “huhh” and “hmmms”, but hopefully the content comes across : )
@@tomlabooks3263 I think your delivery of it is perfect. No need to feel cringey at all!!! 😀
Sono ripetitiva, ma comunque voglio ringraziare ancora per il regalo gratuito e meraviglioso che ci ha fatto con questo progetto, Tom 🙏🏻 ora mi taccio 😅
@@karinar3647 Il piacere è tutto mio! 🙏🏻
Thanks so much for making those videos! They are very insightful! I'm reading Inferno now, only on Canto 8, so a lot still ahead but I'm taking it slowly, I will definitely watch your videos for each canto :)
Thank you for your comment 🙏🏻
Another great installment, thank you! I didn't know the whole background with Francesca. Though it rings a bell, I must have forgotten over the years. Reading all about it now.
Thanks my friend! One of my favorite works based on the life / death of Francesca da Rimini is this one : th-cam.com/video/FmKymqHg4ak/w-d-xo.html
P.S.: main theme , by flute and clarino, at 13:22 . It’s incredible.
Another great video! Keep up the great commentary.
Thanks Jeremy !
Another great video. Who knew that reading could be dangerous?
Right : ) Thanks John. In the description I included the link to a video of actor Roberto Benigni reading this canto. He is wonderful and he can convey the music of these lines for anyone, even if one doesn’t speak Italian.
Love that the number of coils of the tail by Minos equates to the level in hell. What a perfect example of “show don’t tell”. See mandelbaum’s text page 46 for a visual.
Musa in his last comment on page 55 notes the distinction between Dante the fictional pilgrim and Dante the poet who wrote the commedia and they shouldn’t be confused. Now I’m even more confused …. How do you handle this distinction when reading this work.
In my native town (Trento) there is a big monument dedicated to Dante, with Minos sitting at the bottom with his tail going around him, very impressive. I showed it in my video about canto 11 but you can find it if you search “Dante monument trento”.
Musa’s comment about Dante the poet and Dante the pilgrim is correct, but they are not two different people: it’s always him, only in 2 different times and places: 1300 ad in the “afterlife” for the pilgrim vs. 1315/20 in Italy for the poet. Many references in the Comedy will shock the pilgrim, but not the poet, because the poet already knows what has happened in those years.
@@tomlabooks3263 ok that helps but I think I’m still missing something. Can you give an example of when the pilgrim is shocked but the poet isn’t.
@@judithhorwitz8671 There will be many later on, for example when some souls will talk to Dante the pilgrim about his upcoming exile from Florence as a prophecy in their fictional 1300, while Dante the poet is writing knowing far too well about his exile.
Enjoyed this conversation Tom! What can you tell me about how frencesca used love to almost manipulate Dante’s pity? Struggling to understand this importance.
The main difference is that, while Dante’s pity is part of his spiritual growth, therefore it’s really a mistake that he will grow out of during the rest of his journey, Francesca’s error is crystallized forever in hell. She is not trying to elicit a particular reaction from Dante. She is expressing her own genuine feelings about her love. The fact that she takes no personal responsibility at all (like all the souls in hell, they all blame someone else for their condition) doesn’t show that she is trying to manipulate Dante, but that she is lying to herself. By giving in to adulterous love, simply following her instincts without any sense of direction or responsibility (let alone, divine guidance) she has put herself before God, and she will continue to do so forever. This is what many people do even today, when they say “There’s nothing I could do, I fell in love and I had to leave my family”. Those people make the same mistake of Francesca’s of elevating sensual passion to a god in itself, instead of understanding that God comes first. I hope this is clear enough….
@@tomlabooks3263 this does help a lot. Since a lot of the “narrators” throughout hell try to misrepresent him. How does Francesca do this then? By expressing her genuine love although she doesn’t feel any responsibility for wrong doing?
@@rogercraig7651 Yes - by focusing only on her passion, as if there was nothing that she could have done to resist it (since she was already married).
thank you so much!
My pleasure!
I always agreed with Virgil's rebuke of Dante here; Francesca paints their offence very sympathetically as "we couldn't help it, it just happened" but what she describes is that they deliberately put themselves in the way of temptation and chose their affair
Hi Mary, sorry I am replying with some delay. I agree with you, I think Dante wants to paint an unrepentant Francesca and that is, in itself, a crucial key to understand why she is in this circle of hell.
It was great to get some context here, because I’ve never come across Francesca’s story. It is interesting how the deed is so clearly separated from sinfull thoughts and how it leads to disproportional consequences. There seems, however, to be more proportion between consequences of different deeds as Francesca’s husband ends up far deeper in hell.
“Caina attende” means that Francesca’s husband will end up in the deepest level - or bottom - of hell, stuck in ice. So you’re right, everything is calibrated with an almost scientific precision. Thanks for watching, Dario!
Line 90 is the one I am wondering about, where Francesca says "...to visit us who stained the world with blood" (Musa) and it makes me wonder if bloodletting in some way is a hallmark of the sinners in this part of the inferno. And if not, why does she say that?
She says that because by “us” she means herself and Paolo, not all the sinners of Lust. They were a particular couple in that their affair led to bloodshed.
@@tomlabooks3263 🙏Thank you for taking the time to reply. Your answer makes sense! It had me wondering because so many (but not all) of the other examples seemed to be related to bloody events in some way.
Don't play down your contribution Tom. You can count yourself amongst all those sense-makers over these hundreds of years. Love that love has appeared - and the story of Paolo and Francesca fascinating. Thanks for the Roberto link - I found myself giving him a standing ovation myself! Una domanda piccola....the many references to wind (is that the hurricane of Hell?)
Ahh thanks so much 🙏🏻 Yes Roberto is just magnificent isn’t he? As for the wind, it seems like Dante sourced this contrappasso punishment idea from an image he found in Aristotle’s Nichomachean Ethics, where Big Brain Aristotle said that the sin of love / lust is “like a wind that carries you”, because it’s as if a force outside of yourself was carrying you. I didn’t read Aristotle’s Ethics and I don’t plan to : ) but this is pretty solid as I read many scholars say this.
@@tomlabooks3263 many scholars and I guess even more people would attest!
@@penelopemavor7825 Haha yes of course 😂 my scholars mention was limited to Aristotle being Dante’s source for this imagery. Hope you had a good weekend. On to another week ... 👋🏼🤗
I find the part about Paolo continuously weeping a bit strong as well. Dante chose to make him the more submissive/distraught of the two. I feel as though that Paolo felt horrible for his decision to have an affair with his brother's wife and it costed him his life. The continuous weeping is wishing he could repent for this because he feels bad for this decision, whereas Frenceska doesn't feel sorry because she was driven to that point by her husband. Paolo now must spend an eternity in damnation of agony with this decision and regrets it while Frenceska simply doesn't regret the decision.
Yes, great point. Paolo is often coming across as a secondary character, but he certainly is not. His presence is very powerful in the canto. As for his not being to repent, that’s a very insightful comment : in Dante’s Hell, as in general in the christian hell, no one is “repentant”. Damned souls can be sorry, regretful, etc. but never “for the right reasons”, because you will notice that they invariably pin their fate to something external, never to themselves (as they should do). So yes, the inability to repent is causing Paolo constant pain, but at the same time, as a damned soul, he is unable to see and admit his full responsibility. Very tragic indeed!
hey tom could you suggest, from an academic point of view, what a student should keep in mind while preparing for the inferno (esp canto 1-4)? like what are the main things that most question papers include?
i absolutely adore your teaching style btw
I don’t think the question papers would pick any topic that I didn’t touch on in my videos. Purpose of Dante’s journey, why Virgil, and initial doubts of Dante.
@@tomlabooks3263 thank you sir
The conversation about courtly love reminded me that Cervantes also struggled with this.
I didn’t know! I’ll look into it. Thanks.
Hey, Tom, indeed it's very windy in this hellsh canto!
Yes 😄 A constant tornado !
@@tomlabooks3263
You mean a tornado of unlimited passions!
@@ameliadiaz8040 That’s right. No restraint at all doesn’t make us into the best versions of ourselves.
Your exposition about Dante's own relation to courtly love was very helpful.
There is one line that you may perhaps be able to help me with, 103-105. Love, who no loved one pardons love's requite, seized me for him so strongly in delight..."
Hi Ros. I'm using the Musa translation which reads: "Love, that excuses no one loved from loving, seized me so strongly with delight in him that, as you see, he never leaves my side." In essence it seems like she is using the courtly formula of the three "Love" tercets to excuse their affair. 1. He was seized by lust; 2. I wanted him because he wanted me; 3. our giving in to lust was our undoing. Just like the winds in hell that buffet them about like birds, she shows how they gave in to their passions, but (according to Musa) she tries to disguise the sins of lust and infidelity by using high falutin courtly love poetry language. I love how Tom goes between the two translations to clarify their differences.
@@TootightLautrec thanks. Your translation makes more sense. I suppose mine was trying to maintain the repetition of the word love, but ended up losing the meaning for me.
Thanks Tootight Lautrec for answering Ros’s question. I never read the medieval booklet by Andrea Cappellanus that I quote in the video, but apparently that’s where all these formulas about love were collected. Thank you both for the continued interest! This is a book that literally contains the whole world : )
A word comes up in line 133--riso--which I wish you could talk about. In English there's a big difference between a smile and laugh: a laugh is something you hear, a smile is something you see. But I gather the distinction in Italian isn't that clear. Ridere and sorridere seem to be almost interchangeable. Is that right? In English translations Beatrice is never allowed to laugh, but sometimes--Purgatorio 6.48 and Paradiso 31.134 for example, I would really like her to. Am I wrong? Thanks very much.
Hi Jon, you’re absolutely right. In modern Italian, ridere is to laugh and sorridere is to smile. But Dante’s “riso” can mean both, especially “smile” (as we find in Purg. 21, 106). Canto 5 is the only place in Inferno where this word is mentioned, while it will show up more and more in Purgatory and Paradise. Dante had written in his “Convivio” about a type of riso that is impolite (our “loud laugh”), which he compared to the sound of a chicken : ) I might be wrong but my guess is that in our imagination we are allowed to see Beatrice “laugh” a couple of times in Paradise, but always very gently and never loudly (or, even less, like a chicken). I’m sure it has to do with the fact that a laugh is an instinct that can come out without any control, while a smile requires a certain measure and discipline. This is a fascinating topic - I know that several philosophers that Dante had access to had addressed it, so he was surely influenced by his readings as well.
@@tomlabooks3263 Wow. Thanks very much. I suspected that it might be something like that, but you've made it very clear. I dimly remember reading something about the chicken-laugh, but I didn't really understand it. The crowd of young ladies, some of whom (apparently) laugh at Dante in Vita Nuova, seemed to suggest that it was sometimes (just barely) OK for a lady to laugh in public. I'm glad that I can be allowed to hear a gentle laugh from Beatrice sometimes.
I am always troubled by the Catholic disdain for the body. Dante is so good at embodying the Pilgrim, and his fainting fits, along with the senses that are stimulated/assaulted as he goes through hell, really vivifies the experience. Perhaps my sin is that I also have difficulty separating the intellect from the physical senses that guide my decisions. (Gut instinct, et cetera). Living a life guided only by hard, cold intellect seems like an equally egregious sin. I'm hoping this comes up later on. I am enjoying reading along with you and the other people here so much.
Thanks for watching. This is a point that I wish I was able to express more clearly ... Dante follows St. Thomas quite closely so that’s where his main theological principles come from. By orienting love through intellect they did not mean living a life guided only by intellect, but rather by a balanced mix of “heart and mind”, to use a modern expression, and to consider the love for your partner as subordinate to the love for God. Under this christian viewpoint, listening to your passions and instincts is not considered wrong, but it needs to be balanced with respect for the sacrament of marriage. A modern Paolo or Francesca would be a married person who keeps having extra-marital affairs based on the fancy of the day. But if we step out of the christian framework, that’s how someone very passionate might lead their life. The great J. Borges, commenting on Canto V, thought Dante was envious / jealous of Francesca and Paolo, because even if they are in hell, at least they get to stay together for eternity (while he was missing Beatrice). I love how this book opens up an endless number of discussions, and certainly not only christian ones. Thanks again.
Also (second part of my reply : ) ) - do you know the speech “This is water” by David Foster Wallace, that I quoted at the end of my introductory video? He talked about human beings as natural worshipping beings, and said that if we choose to worship any “thing” outside of God, Allah, Buddah, etc. that thing will sooner or later “eat us alive”. I find that a very deep concept. “Love for another person” in itself, as high as it is, is in Dante’s opinion not worth of being the thing that we worship above all others. Here it is: th-cam.com/video/PhhC_N6Bm_s/w-d-xo.html
@@tomlabooks3263 Thanks, Tom. I understand and sympathize with the idea balance, but I am perpetually intrigued by the strangeness of Catholicism's obsessions with the body--which is why there are there are so many great saint stories. Also, Dante does corporeal corruption here so very well! I also can't help but think of Augustine's famous pre-conversion prayer "Lord, give me chastity, but not yet."
@@tomlabooks3263 Thanks for the link. Even having read only a few of his essays and some short stories, I can say love everything I've read of DFW, and look forward to watching this. As a Catholic educated atheist (and by the way I loved my Catholic education) when one talks of God, I think of the omnipresent, omniscient god exemplified by the phrase "God is everything." In that conception, anything separated out from the great Everything, and not recognized as a part of the great Everything cheapens it and will lead to trouble. In this way, Thinking of it this way helps me see how Francesca and Paolo separated their passion out of the greater picture of a stable society. Still, pity me a poor sinner who sympathizes with the passionate (as I guess the Pilgrim does as well, not having seen the light.) This also makes the reading experience so satisfying: we become like the Pilgrim meeting aspects of ourselves as we go through the Inferno.
@@TootightLautrec Yes I think we all sympathize with Paolo and Francesca... I certainly do too.
How would we know that Francesca cheated on her husband if history about her was lost or never known? Or if someone was just blindly reading Canto V? I don't get it because it was never explicitly said that she cheated on her husband. It just said that they died suddenly after reading the French book together.
As with every non-major event of the Middle Ages, it’s difficult for historians to find unequivocal documentation that proves the story of Paolo and Francesca. History can only demonstrate that their families existed and that “Gianciotto” was married to Francesca and then he married another woman shortly thereafter. However, Dante is not the only one who referred to their story in Italian literature. Above all, Giovanni Boccaccio is the author who wrote about Paolo and Francesca, and he corroborated Dante’s version of the events, while being more specific about the actual murder.
@tomlabooks3263
Good day, thank you so much for responding, my head was itching since awaiting you.
Maybe there is a more fundamental misunderstanding for me. Is there a name for this literary device? It would've been impossible to "infer" that the sin was mainly due to infidelity. It seemed they were simply in love and were killed for simply reading a book together. Additonally, there was no mention of the killer being Fransesca's husband, explicitly. My point is that a blind reader is not a "historian." Unless I am missing the point of "reading books."
I am a beginner of reading classical literature. Should I interpret "reading" classics as "going beyond" the text in the book and requiring a historical understanding to infer such things, as the above scenario?
@@TheAncientColossus I absolutely understand your point, and the answer to your question is “yes”! That is, in fact, what reading and studying the classics is very much about. I would also add that our modern sensitivity would expect Dante to simply tell us “they did this (had intercourse) and therefore they were murdered for jealousy”, but Dante’s writing, especially since it’s in poetry, very often leaves its deep meaning unsaid. The allusion is sufficient, and it was sufficient in his times for everyone to understand what he was talking about, because this was a famous event, let’s say for example like someone today referring to Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, something that everyone knows about.