Unused GDC 1999 Roadtrip Presentation
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- I found a PowerPoint that I had made in mid-1999 to present at the GDC 1999 Roadtrip Conference in Austin, TX. I never gave this presentation, so here it is, a time capsule from 25 years ago.
- เกม
That slide design is such a throwback lol
PowerPoint 1999!
Seriously! Caught my eye from scrolling TH-cam.
"RPGs finally leaving the D&D nest as I call it"
And I there's a decent argument that the original Fallout games are partly responsible for that -- like I think it said on one of the ads, it stood out as an RPG without "the faeries, spells, and other crap".
If that’s the cartoony looking ad, I have no memory of approving that one
@@CainOnGames I just double checked and it looks like it was an ad for Fallout 2 where the main visual emphasis was on the Enclave power helmet from the game's cover.
Either way, though, the main point I was making stands. Fallout charged through that so the RPGs of today could run with it.
@aNerdNamedJames Ah, that explains it. I left Interplay before approving any ads for Fallout 2
While fallout has an undeniable heritage, I would say that in the RPG world Rifts, released in 1990, was the first RPG to fully leave the D&D nest. Those of us who read the appendices of the first edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons manual and came across Gamma World were also exposed to it. Obviously Dark Sun is fantasy post-apoc but solidly grounded in the worlds of TSR at the time and WotC now. That to me leaves Rifts as the first RPG i can recall as solidly not D&D. Certainly, Fallout brought post apocalypse to the mainstream, but science fiction novels and tabletop had been doing it for several years (decades for sci-fi novels, of course) at the time of Fallouts release.
That said, this is a very good presentation and rather predictive in terms of expected complexity and richness of storytelling.
@@johnprincipes8058 I guess I should've specified CRPGs. For tabletop RPGs, there were of course many non-fantasy campaigns released before the shipping of Fallout. I'd generally guess that everyone here knows that.
What a cool idea for a video! Interesting to see your thoughts versus where we stand now. I love an RPG that actively encourages you to play a completely different sort of character than you "usually" prefer. I feel like a lot of what I see right now is the attempt at balance by assigning essentially the same amount of advantages no matter what type of character you play. A better, more measured approach of allowing the player to discover unique advantages later in the game is catnip for me. Great channel and really appreciate being able to support it.
Just watched a video of you at GDC - it feels like a very different version of you. I like the way your yiutube videos feel like youre talking to us 1 on 1 even the the audience here is way bigger than your gdc audience
It's a 12 year younger version of me. :)
I did like it!! I love how you acted out like it was 1999, it was funny to see it from that perspective too. And what's funny is that just as it was starting, some of the concepts and issues sounded completely relevant for TODAY! So I was like "is this supposed to be about now?" It's curious how many things have evolved but others remain the same.
The part about "Realtime vs Turn Based" really hit me, took me straight to my experience playing Fallout 3 and really missing Fallout's turn based combat.
And the observation about character ability vs player ability finally put into words why I appreciate RPGs so much and can't get into sports, fighting, racing or FPSs games, and it's because I can't develop that level of skill to succeed, but with RPGs my character can :)
That’s what I enjoyed about finding this old presentation. Even after 25 years, some things haven’t changed.
@@CainOnGames RPG design... RPG design never changes...
I was surprised not to see "real-time with pause" there.
@@BradTheAmerican The reason I think it was not included was because that concept was not yet widespread and coined as a term.
@@grandaddyjesus Sure, real-time with pause was in only a handful of notable games during the 1990s, but that includes the massively successful Baldur's Gate 1 which came out in 1998. I didn't do a lot of research to lockdown the earliest mention of the RTwP term, but I found an article from 2000 that used "semi real-time" for real-time games with a pause feature, and it said that semi real-time was the most popular system for RPGs during that time period. If RTwP or an equivalent term didn't exist by 1999, I wonder if most people simply didn't yet bother to make a distinction between real-time games and "mostly" real-time games. Now I really want Ahoy to do a deep-dive video about the history of real-time with pause like he did for first-person shooters in his Doom video.
This is the equivalent of presenting your slidehow homework to your teacher 30 years after it was due 😂 Love it! Fantastic video.
I guess the skill based character is the root to the stealth archers we see in Skyrim. When all avenues are valid, people drift towards certain combinations and play styles
This presentation was so well done that I keep forgetting it was written 25 years ago. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Im currently replaying the Outer Worlds. You can really see so much of this presentation in that game.
The past's vision for the future is both amazing and hilarious.
One of my university books about technical land surveying that was written in the early 90s concluded that GPS technology does hold some interesting potential for both navigation and surveying.
That one came true for sure 😂
Loved the presentation and trying to trace paralells to where we're now!
I think a cool follow-up would be thoughts on how those topics actually moved on within the industry or the medium as a whole. Unexpected twists, unmet goals, new and old challenges, or any other form of analysis.
Oh man, the time frame of this presentation paired with the mention of Batman having to be presented in a certain way took my brain back to the Bat Embargo of the early 00's. At least we got some really good episodes of Justice League Unlimited out of it that focused on different characters.
Sounds like Tim knew where the industry was going 25 years ago. Neat little piece of nostalgia.
OH hell yea! Manuscripts from the archives for inspiration! Thank you for sharing with us sir.
IMHO non linear greatly enhances the whole experience, as you get more attached to your character.
Tim, I watching now your interview with the drink guy. Also watched a lot of videos here (solo videos) and other interviews with you and other people and I must to tell you are very fun to watch when you interact with other people. Please consider making more materials where you talk to other people. This would be very beneficial for your channel. Your solo videos are very nice as well but there is another level of attraction when more people on the screen.
I wonder how one would enable full reactivity to player actions in an MMORPG framework.
Imagine having typical reactivity in the game with thousands of players: A player gets a quest, then proceeds to do it. By on the way back, it disappears because someone else has done it (or more likely, the player walks all the way back to the NPC only for them to say "Oh, someone else helped me."
But if you try to lock it to one player, that player might never bother with the quest, potentially blocking all the other players from doing it.
And imagine if the world changes... not because of your actions, but because of others. Works in the real world (kind of) but would be a nightmare for a Game Designer to develop.
I talk about how to add some reactivity in an MMO in my video Storytelling in MMORPGs
th-cam.com/video/MZB516hovas/w-d-xo.html
@@CainOnGames Wow, I really need to finish going through your all your videos. Before I can even formulate a question, you've got a video on it haha
A presentation about "RPGs in 20 years" would be interesting aswell :). Great presentation and there's still a lot to do :D
What is needed for a MMORPG to tick all those boxes and become a "full RPG" and not just "something with RPG elements"?
Just out of curiosity, have you played EverQuest back in 1999? If so, what were your impressions? I'd love to see a RPG where I can actually see what a monster or NPC currently has equipped AND be able to steal it from him or talk to him about that. Imagine seeing a veteran fighter NPC with a bloody, but really worn axe on his back and you can ask him about his weapon and he tells his tale, you're able to steal it from him and he seeks revenge or something like that :D I'd really like it :)
I was hugely into EverQuest!
My Top Five Video Games
th-cam.com/video/2j6qqh3H-0Y/w-d-xo.html
It is funny how few of these questions were answered. I think most AAA RPGs did not have deeper stories, mostly staying in the same variation of a lot to not very much story as they were in the 90s, and only a few notable exceptions trying for more - and often failing.
I would be interested to hear a retrospective on what you put together for the presentation
So cool haha you gave this presentation like you stepped back in time 25 years as your current self, but as I'd imagine you would have given it, as the you in 1999 would have. Definition of a fun friday
Fun view back. Would be interesting to see your present-day reflections on that talk vs what happened over the last 25 years.
I'm taking so many notes on this one! Thank you so much!
What an excellent video and blast from the past
Love you man, I want to find the alternate reality where Troykia survived like bethsadea did. I’d buy the games, return, and then torrent the shit out of them to people.
*sigh* the joy it would bring so many
Congratulations on 150k!
This man is an adorable gem of knowledge
In your realtime vs turnbased you mention that rtwp can be chaotic and there is less control. What is your opinion on real time with an ai editor? Pillars 2 is my favorite crpg, mostly because i love the ai editor, i will spend hours setting it up and then just watch the combat play out. It also takes out the chaotic, chicken with head cutoff feeling of realtime without an ai editor. I realize this is a newerish feature, i think one of the final fantasies maybe 11 was the first one to introduce or atleast popularize this mechanic with the gambit system.
Also is this something that is hard to implement as it seems a rare feature to have an ai editor even in games with RtwP as an alternative option or the preffered way to play?
"In first person, when you shoot at an enemy, you expect to hit it" - Morrowind is timidly looking in the other direction >_>
Imagine showing this to your colleagues with that grocer's apostrophe, you would be a pariah
Looks like most modern RPGs, including anything from Bethesda (and Obsidian's games of the same style, like Outer Worlds) break action success criteria, at least partially, to be called a "strict" RPG. Since exempt character skill, the player skill is also required, at least for real time targeting and positioning, as well as for executing stealth. Of course, to much less extent than any action RPG like Witcher, or something like Elder Ring, where player skill is much more important.
Damn, haven't seen those powerpoint graphics since high school.
"Action success based on character level not player ability"--yes! perfect. the most perfect statement of what I want in a game, how I want to role-play, not participate in, action.
Bingo.
Whats wrong with player ability? The souls series shows you can have both
Vary Interesting I like all these concepts, Specially the RPG Notes I agree all RPGS should, be able to give the player a chance to layout there entire characters story. Thanks Tim always love the these Videos on Game design.
you and maybe some of your friends/ex colleagues should defo approach masterclass about making a gamedev course [i would defo pay for it lol]
this was very informative and fun
I wish the GDC vault wasn't 500 dollars to access or some nonsensical figure. They do have a lot of great content on their channel, but I'm wondering what isn't there.
problem with turn based then and now is the hilariously bad hit chance (missing the freaking mole rat in vault 15 almost 20 times and then dying with a supposedly 40 % hit chance, absolute peak). real time with hit chance like morrowind or the first two baldur's gate games are also annoying, but you can at least back off, evade etc and aren't locked in place.
Hi Tim, I think it would make for a really interesting video if you did a breakdown of this talk. Were some of your predictions right, what do you think the industry missed, etc.
I thought about doing that, but I also like for people to do that comparison themselves. How do you think I did? What did I predict and what did I miss?
@@CainOnGamesA respectable outlook, I'd say look over the results over a semi-long period of time to determine yourself, then reflect on the changes and contrast that with people's responses. Would make that vid all the more interesting
I feel like I just attended my first GDC! 😊
Years ahead of the curve :D still relative
I wonder if some of the views have changed? I mean it feels like by that definition JRPGs would be no RPGs, since they usually also do not allow character customisation. Similar with Diablo, more recent entries in the franchise allow more character customisation, would those then now be RPGs were the original was not?
As TTRPG designer (wannabe, since i still have not released my first game), I wonder if a system that would break away from paradigm of capability based play, regardless if comes from classes or directly rom skills, would then also not be a RPG in that space?
I defined what an RPG is, for me: th-cam.com/video/XSKxD6v06P4/w-d-xo.html
That might not be everyone's definition.
@@CainOnGames Senpai noticed me! Watching the other video now!
I guess JRPGs wouldn't count since:
- You don't make your own character, you work with a preset and everyone plays the same set story
- Choices are based on part composition, but generally follow the same overall choices regardless of what characters you have
- The world is not really reactive the story advance in a railway
- The world depends heavily of the character's existence, but not of the player, for its actions wont vary from player to player
The things it does have is that success is based on character level instead of player ability, and it has a heavy emphasis on grinding and leveling rather than strategizing, with enough levels you can brute-force the game to the finish line
On the other hand the Soulborne games and Elden Ring would count, despite being considered mostly action games, would be RPGs since:
- You can make your own character
- Your choices will affect and change the world, including what you can access and what endings you will get
- The world react to your character and the actions it has taken
- And as the chosen one, the character and his actions are immersed in the story
The one thing it can be debated being the fact that while you can use levels to leverage your success, at the end of the day player skill matters more, this includes the ability to figure out weakness and advantages
The RPG definition is good!
This is awesome!
I do have a somewhat related question - what are the pros/cons of turn based combat vs real-time with pause for isometric cRPGs?
For context I just started a PoE 1 playthrough and am enjoying it so far.
A tim talk from 1999 the year of my birth haha
Hey Tim, I think it was in a video last week where you said you should make some cookies. Just curious, what is your favorite cookie?
Chocolate chip. I still use the recipe that I included in Temple of Elemental Evil
@@CainOnGames That's awesome! I'll have to make them sometime and give them a try. Thanks for answering my question!
@@CainOnGames I still use Grandama Cookhill's Three Bowl Bread for banana bread, I will have to try those cookies.
Hey Tim, How do you feel about games you have worked on doing collaborations with other games or media? As an example, fallout recently collaborated with fortnite and call of duty
I would disagree about needing a custom character for a game to be an RPG. FF7 was one of the greatest RPGs of all time, and Cloud was a set main character. Loved the presentation.
Yeah I disagree with needing a preset character.
But I do agree that an RPG needs narrative choice and decisions. I don’t really find most JRPGs to be RPGs because they lack that element. And I say this as someone who very much enjoys the genre. FFVII is incredible and I argue can be seen as RPG because Cloud’s choices at least reflect his companionship.
well, that's where the distinction between a Computer RPG, like Fallout and Skyrim, and a Japanese RPG, like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, come in.
They're both derived from tabletop RPGs but with emphasis on different aspects of the RPG experience.
@@DanielFerreira-ez8qd Of course. But videogame genre names are fucked. I am not gonna bother yelling at clouds telling people jrpgs aren’t rpgs and giving people a headache. I don’t think many of them should be classified as such, but it’s a pointless battle to have, especially since I like the genre anyway.
@@Nastara I'm playing Octopath Traveller 2 at the moment. Definitely a JRPG. Your story is very much set. How you solved a quest can be different but the outcome is the same. Your characters are premade, but how you equip them, buff them or assign different jobs or perks changes how you play them. It also changes up depending on party combinations. It makes for an interesting half way house, or maybe quarter way house, of a game. More options than what might be thought of as a "traditional" JRPG but with less branching outcomes than a western RPG. Regardless it's still a really fun game.
Lol i used those same slides for a powerpoint presentation in highschool.
this looks like a pushback against the "jrpg" gaining popularity in the late 90's. Not necessarily intentional but it was a discourse back then.
And I was always the weird one because I loved TES: Arena and Fallout, and FFIV and Chrono Trigger.
I like most ideas in the presentation and it shows a lot of thing that I like in an rpg even if I disagree a little bit with the framing of it.
Absolutely right about the real time vs turn based issue, when it comes to RPGs. It instantly brought to mind TES 3 Morowwind. That game had a lot of stats, and calculated hit/damage chance, while being in real time. Players mostly bounced off that game's combat because they don't understand why their sword is not hitting, despite them aligning the curser and pressing attack. That game made some understandable, but bad decisions. It was 1st/3rd person, was heavily stat based, and real time. It looked like an Action game, but played like a pen & paper RPG. It played more like it's predecessors. In the same vein, when writing this I also recall VtM: Bloodlines, also doing the same thing. It was also stat based, used that more action camera, and was real time. What design elements do you think made it all work in that game, but not in TES3? Personally, I'd put it down to two things. I don't recall you calculating Hit Chance, and I think the stats were better displayed in the UI. It blended those two worlds really well, that we don't see so much now.
All this talk about rocket propelled grenades!
I think people get way too hung up on games being marketed or labelled as role-playing. I love Dragon Quest but the only customization I really have are which skills I want to use. The character I play as is set. The story is set. I think people get defensive but this seems to stem from the idea that role-playing games are superior. I love Spyro. It doesn’t need to be an RPG.
I believe the reason you made this powerpoint, was to clear your head, otherwise you would kept repeating the mental argument in your head.
distracting you from doing your job back then
Hey Tim, I am not sure if you made a video about this, but can you explain what the "Ripper!" poster was all about in original Fallout? I just found out about it today and thought it was very strange but also very funny at the same time.
I'm guilty of finding unique and interesting ways to team kill...
In defiance I found a way to team kill.
Halo 3 I was the guy who drove the other team in the whorthog, guy a kid a perfection medal...
Interestingly enough halo reach people wouldn't jump into the whorthog
Young tim!
From your perspective, how did your 1999 talk live up to the reality of what has transpired since then?
When developing on the Source engine for VTM before HL2 even released, were you excited to see what Valve had been working on? Did you use the opportunity to look at the code to see if you could learn anything about HL2 before it came out?
Do turn-based games allow bigger separation of player's ability from character's ability? Good turn based game is agonal / skill-based too, so turn-based combat tests player's ability as well, however it's not their reaction time / hand-eye coordination etc but strategic thinking, planning. Both test player's perception and understanding of the game. I would say that the big difference between real time and turn-based combat is pacing, which may be preferred by certain player. Certain player - I do - may even like both, but for different games and experiences.
Considering the story vs quest driven approach, I have a question for everyone. Do table top sessions have a "main quest" of sorts with a clear story given to the players by the DM, or are the players free to choose their adventures and create their own stories?
I wonder this since I have never been in a D&D session, and also because whenever the story previously designed by the writers fails to connect with the players, a common feeling is that we resign and say "I guess I'll go to X place to retrieve the X item since the game wants me to".
This is quite different from a game like, let's, say, Kenshi, which takes the "every sword swing is a new word in your own story" philosophy to the max level, with a complete absence of a main quest and of a pivotal story
It entirely depends on the Game / Dungeon Master and the game that they're running ("game" meaning both the rule-set they're playing by, and that particular instance and implementation of the rule-set occurring at their table right then). It could be a totally open and player-driven sandbox, or a planned and linear story-based experience, or anything else between those two extremes.
I bet Professor Cain’s class was great back in the day
What if for each act there several end nodes ? Or it`s too much things to consider and balance. For example: Fighter gets into castle, Stealth guy into city near by, Talker into farms below the castle.
Well, I guess this helped me realize that I don't like RPGs as much as games with "RPG elements".
Do you have any other time capsules? It was an interesting look into game design of yesteryear that influences games nowadays.
I’ve posted other old designs of mine. Here’s one: Troika's Conan The Barbarian Proposal
th-cam.com/video/BsZC8A_XB_k/w-d-xo.html
@@CainOnGames That backlog of content is coming in handy
Third person gamers are just as crazed about refusing to play first person games as fp players are about third person. Theres a big protest train demanding third person in cyberpunk and many of those people wont touch it until it gets third person
Me personally i think having the option to toggle seamlessly from first to third at any time makes everyone happy and gives more utility. Definitely more feasible today. I understand back then that wasnt as easy to do.
Though i will add that hitman 2 silent assassin, a 2002 game, had a third to first person camera transition thats completely ahead of its time. Looking at the ground in first person you can see your legs and your feet. You could even shoot yourself in the foot if you werent careful! Most older fps games youe limbs are invisible and youre technically just a floating gun
So mid-2000s Bioware games and Dark Souls -> Elden Ring are not RPGs eh... I'm here for it.
I'm waiting for the day you start one of the videos with [ Stay a while and listen ]
Heh, nice!
What do you think of new arc line? it looks thematically similar to Arcanum.
25 years later, most RPGs are still generic fantasy. For historical ones, there is pretty much only Kingdom Come Deliverance. Then there are few scifi and post-apo and that's about it. Sad.
I wonder if at some point RPGs will have the player record their voice to replicate it with an AI voice so your character will read your responses with your own voice
I don't know about you, but most people don't like the sound of their own voice.
@@talideon If someone were to make something like this I would say it should be completely optional
You already have your own voice; you can just read your character's line out loud to yourself.
@@JB-fp3fb Thats a little bit different than if a character in a game is doing it
@@MikeGemi Yeah. It would be much cheaper and easier to do, less gimmicky, and (as @talideon pointed out) much less grating to listen to.
Hi Tim can you please review my favourite community-developed game, Space Station 13?
Why I Don't Review Games
th-cam.com/video/mFZSt3TaE7Q/w-d-xo.html
wow
Smart (or at least not stupid). A good policy for AI and politics. Yet, somehow, difficult to implement.
Hi Tim! I'm curious to know as a game developper, what is your take on speedrunning? Thanks for all the awesome videos! 😎
th-cam.com/video/l-Vuw-qWCgY/w-d-xo.html
@@CainOnGames Thanks!
I resist playing fantasy RPGs, I don't dig the fantasy genre, I've played fantasy games enough, read enough fantasy to be extremely done with it
I personally can't get interested in magic, because I know alchemy and magic crystals aren't real.
But I can grasp Fallout because I know what Firearms and ammunition are.
What's a Troika?
Ask your parents.
...or Google.
@@monsterurby before it as game studio.
In many Slavic languages it means "trio"
Tim gave an in-depth explanation of the original term, how it came to be, and how it became the name of the studio in a video he did about Troika.
@KeiNovak Yup, it’s called The Origin Of Troika's Name
th-cam.com/video/6mvH-sWq9Zo/w-d-xo.html
Ave, true to TimCain
AI should be "stupid" if it reflects on their character, for example; a follower who has terrible aim should never be given a gun. But if you go Skill-Based then over time they could learn to not shoot the player as they level up alongside you.
I'd say you could give this talk today. Localizations (and writing) are something that today thanks to language models can be done essentially for free. A lot of art can be winged with diffusion models and there are even music generators now that are awesome. I wonder if all these new technologies will allow for deeper more complex games that haven't been made before.
I am hoping that they do, because I want to play those games.
@@CainOnGames ditto indeed!