Objections to predestination are not culturally based but, rather, based in a clear understanding of scripture. Fruit-bearing scholars, theologians and Christians worldwide object to Calvinism/predestination because it is not scriptural. Thankfully, Calvin and his henchmen in Geneva are no longer around to have us jailed or executed for disagreeing with him.
What a terrible argument. The Truth and History that Anti- Calvinists hide and distort in their desperate attempts to tarnish Calvin in the hopes of making a dent on Reformed Christianity aka Calvinism. Michael Servetus came to Geneva in the summer of 1553. Why did he come when he knew that his views were not acceptable to the Reformers there? The answer is that he was depending on the support of the Libertines whose fortunes at this time were in the ascendant within the city. So it happened that while at Vienne he was full of denial and dissimulation, when arrested at Geneva he was full of audacity and bravado. Calvin’s position in the city in 1553 was more critical than at any time since 1538. Calvin wrote to Blaurer of the tempests raging on all sides. Prominent Libertines had been chosen to fill some of the most important positions in the city, and the government was now the most hostile to Calvin the city had ever known. The Council removed some of the rights of the pastors and assumed those rights to itself. Berne too helped the Libertines. The situation was such that Calvin’s friends were in despair. The notion of quitting the city came to his mind at times, and often he longed for heaven - the land of rest. Yet he continued at the post of duty. Following endless discussions in the Council and the Consistory he would return to his home and there pen consolatory letters to the persecuted Christians of France. At that time the French Protestants were being hunted like partridges on the mountains. Calvin gave himself unstintingly to their support. He tried to stir the Protestant cities of Switzerland and the king of England to intervene on their behalf. The French king refused to listen. The faithful Christians must go to the stake for their faith. It was just at this time that Servetus, the adversary of that faith, came to Geneva. If Servetus had shown any sign of humility, Calvin was not minded to punish him severely. But as he was utterly incorrigible, Calvin favoured the penalty of death, but not death by burning at the stake. We come to the famous Sunday of 3 September 1553 - three weeks after the arrest of Servetus. The Council had decided that the Libertine leader Berthelier had the right to attend the Lord’s table, even though he had been excommunicated by the Church. This seemed a triumph for the Libertines. Calvin would now be forced to offer the Supper to an excommunicated and unworthy Libertine - to Berthelier, his enemy, the enemy of the Church and the patron of Servetus. That Sunday Calvin spoke to a full church. Never was there a day more threatening, an hour more decisive in church history. With the members of the Council seated before him, he defies them all. He declared: ‘I will die sooner than this hand shall stretch forth the sacred things of the Lord to those who have been judged despisers.’ He came down slowly from the pulpit and stood behind the holy table. There was solemn silence, soon followed by utter astonishment. Behind the table the reformer - a mere man, pale and exhausted, his life appearing only as a breath! With flashing eye he scans the crowd. Will Berthelier appear? Will he show himself? No, he is not there. He has not dared to show up. The Supper, Beza tells us, was celebrated in extraordinary silence, not without some degree of trembling, as if the Deity were actually present. Yet what will happen? ‘I do not know’, Calvin told them when he preached in the afternoon, ‘if this is my last sermon in Geneva ... I commend you to God and the word of his grace.’ Actually, his words made a wonderful impression even on the most abandoned, and the good were warned of their duty. It was like a sign of the turning of the tide. One can see, however, how near the Libertines and their ally, Servetus, came to success. When Servetus saw the Council favouring Berthelier, he thought he saw Calvin ‘dethroned’ and grew very bold. He went so far as to ask that Calvin be condemned and destroyed, because, forsooth, he ‘followed the doctrine of Simon Magus’. Servetus had asked that his case be referred to the Swiss Churches. He did this, perhaps, at the instigation of the Libertines. But the replies were coming in, and they were adverse to the one who asked for them. Unanimously they gave verdict that the heretic be put to death. On October 26, 1553, the Council met. Twenty out of the twenty-five members were present. Ami Perrin made a last gasp effort in favour of Servetus - he moved that the case be carried before the Council of Two Hundred. This failed. Servetus was unanimously condemned to be burnt and his books with him. It should be noted that this very Council showed its hostility to Calvin both before and after this date. There was on the Council a party of the right who were friendly to him; there was a party of the left who were decidedly friendly to Perrin and the Libertines; and there was a party of the centre who were rather against Calvin. But they could not oppose the united opinion of the Swiss Churches; and being desirous of having the power of excommunication being removed from the pastors, the members of the Council wanted to avoid putting themselves in an impossible position by showing leniency to a notorious heretic. Calvin tried to secure a milder form of death for Servetus - better a quick stroke of the sword than the prolonged agony of the fire! He wished to leave to the Romanists a monopoly of the auto-de-fé. But the Council would not yield to his pleas. When Servetus heard of his sentence he fell into despair. Farel came to Geneva, went to see him, and urged him to acknowledge his error. But Servetus recovered his poise and would not repent. Calvin secured the consent of the Council for him to visit the prisoner. He told Servetus he had never sought to harm him; he had kept the appointment at Paris, he had made every effort to lead him in the right way, and he begged him now to seek mercy from the God whom he had blasphemed. But Servetus clung to his error. www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/history/8_ch16.htm?fbclid=IwAR2adK12po7tNoj-htomvivX9P49CYIOShXfbAqD7Eu7Tr71a3JCmj759jg#_edn43
@@nathanpack-sz1bo, you can read the truth as well as I can. If interested, go and read the numerous works of scholarly Godly men and women which soundly refute Calvin's doctrine of predestination. Indeed, God elected the nation of Israel but the majority promptly went out into the wilderness and built monuments to Baal. Clearly, there is a difference between election and salvation. I will not respond further. Good day.
@SamOgilvieJr There are equally as many Godly, biblical scholars that soundly affirm it. There are also numerous biblical passages you must contend with in order to take your position. To claim otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest. I'm willing to provide those verses if you'd like. Have a blessed day brother.
Isnt it beyond human comprehension to understand what predestination even means? God lives outside of time. Try to wrap your head around that. It is time the church leaves such arguments in the hands of our loving Father. Calvinism is just one example of man's poor attempt at putting God in a the small space that exists inside our little brains. God speaks through scipture and through nature. He loves all His creation and calls us to do the same. We are commanded to love the Lord our God with all our hearts and souls and minds and love our neighbors as ourselves. That should take all our time, and more.
No, God controls only what he controls. He does not control our free will. If he did it would not be free will. God does intervene but He is not a puppet master
Timothy Keller. God doesn't control everything. If He did, then He is doing a bad job of it. Man has the responsibility to control their own life.As the Bible says. You have taken Rom 8: 28 out of it's context, to get your erroneous beliefs.
You are correct. If one is being objective.. He does not 1 John 5:19 states that. Gen 6:6 certainly can raise questions if God knew for sure the Adam and Eve would fall... what is the point of that? Sounds like a bad deal if he knew it was going to happen?
@@holyspiritfilling religion says God knows everything, and people believe what religion has said. The Bible tells us that God has the capacity not to remember our sins, He also has the capacity to choose not to know certain things, especially before He created Lucifer and mankind. If God knew that Adam would fall, why would He repent of creating mankind. The Bible indicates that God didn't know somethings. The alternative is, God is the author of every bad,hurtful and evil things.
@@alanhales6369 Sounds accurate to me. Thank you for the validation. Gen 6:6 is what your referring and a another one that really sets that one is Jeremiah 32:35 Did not even enter Gods mind they would do such a thing. The real key then is how can we operate as Christ did.... to successfully bring heaven to earth. John 16:13 says the Holy Spirit will tell us of things to happen in the future so there certainly is a capacity to know what will happen in certain situations.
@@user-ry6dj7dp6c we can operate like Jesus if we are baptised with the Holy Ghost, because although Jesus was God, He emptied Himself of His Godly attributes and operated as a man, He didn't do one miracle until He was baptised with the Holy Ghost. That's why Jesus said those who believe shall do the same works that He did.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 78 | คู่เอก "ปกรณ์ vs ฟาบิโอ"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LSOmgl0Th2c/mqdefault.jpg)
What a blessing to my life that I have found Tim Kellers Teachings.
Listened to this long time ago, and can’t get enough from listening to it, praise God!
Thank you for this message ❤
Don’t you think this is a rhetorical question? Even evil is in God’s control, mate. Rest in peace my friend.
What an amazing sermon and such a blessing. Praise God that this message can live on.
🙏♥️🙏
Nope 1 John 5:19 Satan is in control of the world... we do have authority over him though
Objections to predestination are not culturally based but, rather, based in a clear understanding of scripture. Fruit-bearing scholars, theologians and Christians worldwide object to Calvinism/predestination because it is not scriptural. Thankfully, Calvin and his henchmen in Geneva are no longer around to have us jailed or executed for disagreeing with him.
What a terrible argument.
The Truth and History that Anti- Calvinists hide and distort in their desperate attempts to tarnish Calvin in the hopes of making a dent on Reformed Christianity aka Calvinism.
Michael Servetus came to Geneva in the summer of 1553. Why did he come when he knew that his views were not acceptable to the Reformers there? The answer is that he was depending on the support of the Libertines whose fortunes at this time were in the ascendant within the city. So it happened that while at Vienne he was full of denial and dissimulation, when arrested at Geneva he was full of audacity and bravado.
Calvin’s position in the city in 1553 was more critical than at any time since 1538. Calvin wrote to Blaurer of the tempests raging on all sides. Prominent Libertines had been chosen to fill some of the most important positions in the city, and the government was now the most hostile to Calvin the city had ever known. The Council removed some of the rights of the pastors and assumed those rights to itself. Berne too helped the Libertines. The situation was such that Calvin’s friends were in despair. The notion of quitting the city came to his mind at times, and often he longed for heaven - the land of rest. Yet he continued at the post of duty. Following endless discussions in the Council and the Consistory he would return to his home and there pen consolatory letters to the persecuted Christians of France. At that time the French Protestants were being hunted like partridges on the mountains. Calvin gave himself unstintingly to their support. He tried to stir the Protestant cities of Switzerland and the king of England to intervene on their behalf. The French king refused to listen. The faithful Christians must go to the stake for their faith.
It was just at this time that Servetus, the adversary of that faith, came to Geneva. If Servetus had shown any sign of humility, Calvin was not minded to punish him severely. But as he was utterly incorrigible, Calvin favoured the penalty of death, but not death by burning at the stake.
We come to the famous Sunday of 3 September 1553 - three weeks after the arrest of Servetus. The Council had decided that the Libertine leader Berthelier had the right to attend the Lord’s table, even though he had been excommunicated by the Church. This seemed a triumph for the Libertines. Calvin would now be forced to offer the Supper to an excommunicated and unworthy Libertine - to Berthelier, his enemy, the enemy of the Church and the patron of Servetus. That Sunday Calvin spoke to a full church. Never was there a day more threatening, an hour more decisive in church history. With the members of the Council seated before him, he defies them all. He declared: ‘I will die sooner than this hand shall stretch forth the sacred things of the Lord to those who have been judged despisers.’ He came down slowly from the pulpit and stood behind the holy table. There was solemn silence, soon followed by utter astonishment. Behind the table the reformer - a mere man, pale and exhausted, his life appearing only as a breath! With flashing eye he scans the crowd. Will Berthelier appear? Will he show himself? No, he is not there. He has not dared to show up. The Supper, Beza tells us, was celebrated in extraordinary silence, not without some degree of trembling, as if the Deity were actually present. Yet what will happen? ‘I do not know’, Calvin told them when he preached in the afternoon, ‘if this is my last sermon in Geneva ... I commend you to God and the word of his grace.’ Actually, his words made a wonderful impression even on the most abandoned, and the good were warned of their duty. It was like a sign of the turning of the tide. One can see, however, how near the Libertines and their ally, Servetus, came to success.
When Servetus saw the Council favouring Berthelier, he thought he saw Calvin ‘dethroned’ and grew very bold. He went so far as to ask that Calvin be condemned and destroyed, because, forsooth, he ‘followed the doctrine of Simon Magus’. Servetus had asked that his case be referred to the Swiss Churches. He did this, perhaps, at the instigation of the Libertines. But the replies were coming in, and they were adverse to the one who asked for them. Unanimously they gave verdict that the heretic be put to death.
On October 26, 1553, the Council met. Twenty out of the twenty-five members were present. Ami Perrin made a last gasp effort in favour of Servetus - he moved that the case be carried before the Council of Two Hundred. This failed. Servetus was unanimously condemned to be burnt and his books with him. It should be noted that this very Council showed its hostility to Calvin both before and after this date. There was on the Council a party of the right who were friendly to him; there was a party of the left who were decidedly friendly to Perrin and the Libertines; and there was a party of the centre who were rather against Calvin. But they could not oppose the united opinion of the Swiss Churches; and being desirous of having the power of excommunication being removed from the pastors, the members of the Council wanted to avoid putting themselves in an impossible position by showing leniency to a notorious heretic.
Calvin tried to secure a milder form of death for Servetus - better a quick stroke of the sword than the prolonged agony of the fire! He wished to leave to the Romanists a monopoly of the auto-de-fé. But the Council would not yield to his pleas.
When Servetus heard of his sentence he fell into despair. Farel came to Geneva, went to see him, and urged him to acknowledge his error. But Servetus recovered his poise and would not repent. Calvin secured the consent of the Council for him to visit the prisoner. He told Servetus he had never sought to harm him; he had kept the appointment at Paris, he had made every effort to lead him in the right way, and he begged him now to seek mercy from the God whom he had blasphemed. But Servetus clung to his error.
www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/history/8_ch16.htm?fbclid=IwAR2adK12po7tNoj-htomvivX9P49CYIOShXfbAqD7Eu7Tr71a3JCmj759jg#_edn43
IYO
Do you believe scripture teaches that Israel was set apart, and chosen as a holy nation based on nothing more than the sovereignty of God?
@@nathanpack-sz1bo, you can read the truth as well as I can. If interested, go and read the numerous works of scholarly Godly men and women which soundly refute Calvin's doctrine of predestination. Indeed, God elected the nation of Israel but the majority promptly went out into the wilderness and built monuments to Baal. Clearly, there is a difference between election and salvation. I will not respond further. Good day.
@SamOgilvieJr
There are equally as many Godly, biblical scholars that soundly affirm it. There are also numerous biblical passages you must contend with in order to take your position. To claim otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest. I'm willing to provide those verses if you'd like.
Have a blessed day brother.
Isnt it beyond human comprehension to understand what predestination even means? God lives outside of time. Try to wrap your head around that. It is time the church leaves such arguments in the hands of our loving Father. Calvinism is just one example of man's poor attempt at putting God in a the small space that exists inside our little brains. God speaks through scipture and through nature. He loves all His creation and calls us to do the same. We are commanded to love the Lord our God with all our hearts and souls and minds and love our neighbors as ourselves. That should take all our time, and more.
No, God controls only what he controls. He does not control our free will. If he did it would not be free will. God does intervene but He is not a puppet master
Tell me u didn't listen to the sermon without telling me u didn't listen to the sermon
@@dwightkofroth6185 I listened to the intro
@@dwightkofroth6185 please don't confuse free will with autonomy.
Timothy Keller. God doesn't control everything. If He did, then He is doing a bad job of it. Man has the responsibility to control their own life.As the Bible says.
You have taken Rom 8: 28 out of it's context, to get your erroneous beliefs.
You are correct. If one is being objective.. He does not 1 John 5:19 states that. Gen 6:6 certainly can raise questions if God knew for sure the Adam and Eve would fall... what is the point of that? Sounds like a bad deal if he knew it was going to happen?
@@holyspiritfilling religion says God knows everything, and people believe what religion has said. The Bible tells us that God has the capacity not to remember our sins, He also has the capacity to choose not to know certain things, especially before He created Lucifer and mankind. If God knew that Adam would fall, why would He repent of creating mankind. The Bible indicates that God didn't know somethings.
The alternative is, God is the author of every bad,hurtful and evil things.
@@alanhales6369 Sounds accurate to me. Thank you for the validation. Gen 6:6 is what your referring and a another one that really sets that one is Jeremiah 32:35 Did not even enter Gods mind they would do such a thing. The real key then is how can we operate as Christ did.... to successfully bring heaven to earth. John 16:13 says the Holy Spirit will tell us of things to happen in the future so there certainly is a capacity to know what will happen in certain situations.
@@user-ry6dj7dp6c we can operate like Jesus if we are baptised with the Holy Ghost, because although Jesus was God, He emptied Himself of His Godly attributes and operated as a man, He didn't do one miracle until He was baptised with the Holy Ghost. That's why Jesus said those who believe shall do the same works that He did.