@@CanYouRollaCrit i feel like beastmen v beastmen ends up being either with both teams basically in a suicide pact or it's the least beastmen game to ever include beastmen
Great battle report! Maybe Frenzy is its own tac op so that you're always taking it into account before acting, and where possible, plan how you'll deal with that before you incapacitate the Ravager operative. But yes it is frustrating that Ravagers can gain VP even after being Frenzied.
So the beastmen are very good and possibly op but what about Heartkin Salvagers? How do they feel in play? Do you think they can do well in less powerful opponents than the beastmen? That low movement sounds really hard as a weakness
I find, outside of Fellgor, they do pretty well. You basically need to plan all your moves at the start of the game but they're really good at defensive play
I wonder if it would help if Frenzy tokens were more like Reanimation tokens and you had to be more strategic with them. Like you have 5 tokens total and you can only play 2 per turning point.
Seems like Intercessors would be decent against beastmen in open play. Double shoots to frenzy, quick grenadier and grenade launcher to counter bunching auras, decent melee to finish frenzied beasts, and good over watches just to make sure targets go to frenzy asap. And their own in death atonement to top it off.
Issue is you will likely not get to shoot them till their too close. Also as their auras are basically blue, it's hard to punish them with blast I find they do pretty well into Intercession
IMO beastmen should be 9 operative kill team and make possible to kill a frenzy beastmen with a critical hit from shooting. Maybe those both nerfs are to much but the possibility to kill with critical hit from shooting IMO is definitely needed. Also warp[aint should be 2EP instead of 1.
What are you talking about? the game was pretty close, ain't it? At no point the goats felt so oppressive as for CYRaC to be "unfair" or unable to play the game.
As we said in the post game chat, if Charles just went a little more aggro instead of pulling back, would have been over TP3. Especially if we were using doors as most places do. I was using all the tricks I could to just stay even while Charles was just being more relaxed. If Charles had the same amount of prep with Fellgor as I had with Votann, would have been over. It's why we didn't use our Secure or ITD games, Votann couldn't even get close on those modes due to Frenzy
Since cover lines are drawn in 3 Dimensions, wouldn't that beam from vantage have the cover lines going over the nearest model at 23:40? The rule specifies that the beam line has to cross the operatives base, and the only way that would be possible if the gunner and both targets were level on the ground. I suppose your way is a little more thematic though haha
I feel like a Frag Grenade/close Flamer as a 3 APL counterattack while saving for last activations would be a great tactic against these foul fellgors (ofc not available to hearthkin in this match) See how the shaman leads a cluster of gors into a specific cover... grenade/blast into it leaving them in 2-4 wounds and suddenly they cannot charge without diying on their activation anymore Since they go melee the idea is that they only have a few points where they can go... so if you anticipate on that you can punish those areas of the map Great batrep too guys!! Its great watching you and the after commentary is so insightfull it lets one learn better :)
The issue is the aura is blue so they can space out easily, Charles just didn't think I could get a shot with my missile due to its movement aha Thanks, glad you enjoyed it (:
It seems like around the 25 minute mark you missed the fact that the Beastman you charged with the Salvager at the top of the screen, would've had a grudge token from killing the model just before. So you would've retained 2 crits. Not that it mattered in the end.
I have a feeling that the Frenzy rule will get adjusted at some point. Maybe by having it so that any crit, whether from shooting or combat, will incapacitate them?
How does the felgpor deathknell's war gong ability work with frenzy? Does a crit still count as a crit for the purpose of killing a frenzied operative? Or does it mean a frenzied unit near the deathknell will always need 2 normal hits to be pushed?
I really do think the team will be figured out and countered. Their entire gameplay is built around not dying until the end of their next activation, which can only take you so far once people start playing around that. It's a shame that the team was built around such a broken mechanic though as a single nerf or buff absolutely ruins this team, but I think as-is they won't be good in the long run.
Would the movement impairment of the utility grenade from the grenade still be ignored by warpaint? It says it requires an additional circle of movement but doesn't state that it subtracts circle from movement.
There is counterplay vs beastman.. just votaan are the opposite of what it requires... just rush and sit on objectives while shooting them. If you kill them with your shot they are frenzied and cant do mission actions and will die at end of there activation if they are ready. If you dont kill them and just damage them you can kill them when they charge you and they dont frenzy. Beastman will almost auto lose on loot missions as well. If they just make a beastman unable to contest while frenzied no other change would be necessary
@Can You Roll a Crit? i sense sarcasm sir... what team "just allows" you to counter them? Nobody is saying beastmen are easy to play against and are not a good team. But you sir are honestly going way overboard with your historical reaction. In fact your very batrep was basically decided by what many games come down to... initiative roles.
Historical reaction? Anyway, it was not decided on initiative rolls, what lost it for me was when I lost control of objective 3 on TP3. By then I didn't have the movement or bodies to contest, especially when they frenzied. Charles lost more guys but he used the Frenzied beastmen to ensure he got those points as he still controlled them while Frenzied.
On balance that was a match to lose for FB if any, still looked in control despite some high skilled play with the HS and some clutch save rolls. Doesn’t bode well for the majority of factions even if the new season is Open format. They remind me of Gellerpox, strong in the hands of new players, oppressive in the hands of great players. Yet to see evidence of a hard counter.
You can tell Charles isn’t best designed for beastmen - doesn’t have the full on aggro needed!! Obviously it’s a terrible match up for the harthkyn, but would a hardier & faster team have faired better in that scenario? Would be interesting to just keep playing the beastmen into every team and seeeing which fairs best
You can put a gruge token during the activation, not in the beginning of it? And what about los? On 10th min goat was in conceal near barricade, so he is not not valid target, or no?
I'm sorry man... but your gauge is 6-3-2-1 yeah? You absolutely measured that with the 3" side. It's not a huge deal... but this isn't related to the camera parallax in any way. I appreciate the BR on Open anyways though. Good to see Felgor where they are weakest.
Ah, we were winging it a bit there but it was within 2, just used the 3 inch side for quick reference Yeah...they do have a little more counter play on open but it's weird. Open doors kinda make them worse to deal with
![ILLSLICK - THE KING'S LANDING [Freestyle]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/feIJJnNkTfk/mqdefault.jpg)
Beastmen mirror match sounds funny to watch. Everyone taking turns frenzying eachother then getting frenzied and dying
Everyone just charging and passing 🤣😭
@@CanYouRollaCrit i feel like beastmen v beastmen ends up being either with both teams basically in a suicide pact or it's the least beastmen game to ever include beastmen
Comes down to...Tac Ops? Weirdest mirror in the game for sure
Great battle report! Maybe Frenzy is its own tac op so that you're always taking it into account before acting, and where possible, plan how you'll deal with that before you incapacitate the Ravager operative. But yes it is frustrating that Ravagers can gain VP even after being Frenzied.
So the beastmen are very good and possibly op but what about Heartkin Salvagers? How do they feel in play? Do you think they can do well in less powerful opponents than the beastmen? That low movement sounds really hard as a weakness
I find, outside of Fellgor, they do pretty well. You basically need to plan all your moves at the start of the game but they're really good at defensive play
Legionaires with mark of Khorne look like the would have a good time against the goats. Especially the Shrive talon.
Kinda, until the Shrivetalon goes down ):
@@CanYouRollaCrit he’d be invulnerable against frenzy charges though at least, and with grisly trophy could get pretty tanky in melee.
I wonder if it would help if Frenzy tokens were more like Reanimation tokens and you had to be more strategic with them. Like you have 5 tokens total and you can only play 2 per turning point.
That would be a great change
Seems like Intercessors would be decent against beastmen in open play. Double shoots to frenzy, quick grenadier and grenade launcher to counter bunching auras, decent melee to finish frenzied beasts, and good over watches just to make sure targets go to frenzy asap. And their own in death atonement to top it off.
Issue is you will likely not get to shoot them till their too close. Also as their auras are basically blue, it's hard to punish them with blast
I find they do pretty well into Intercession
@@CanYouRollaCrit I didn't realize they had a perma-conceal ability. That's nutty.
IMO beastmen should be 9 operative kill team and make possible to kill a frenzy beastmen with a critical hit from shooting.
Maybe those both nerfs are to much but the possibility to kill with critical hit from shooting IMO is definitely needed.
Also warp[aint should be 2EP instead of 1.
They need a big hit but those are some good starts!
What are you talking about? the game was pretty close, ain't it? At no point the goats felt so oppressive as for CYRaC to be "unfair" or unable to play the game.
As we said in the post game chat, if Charles just went a little more aggro instead of pulling back, would have been over TP3. Especially if we were using doors as most places do.
I was using all the tricks I could to just stay even while Charles was just being more relaxed.
If Charles had the same amount of prep with Fellgor as I had with Votann, would have been over. It's why we didn't use our Secure or ITD games, Votann couldn't even get close on those modes due to Frenzy
Since cover lines are drawn in 3 Dimensions, wouldn't that beam from vantage have the cover lines going over the nearest model at 23:40? The rule specifies that the beam line has to cross the operatives base, and the only way that would be possible if the gunner and both targets were level on the ground. I suppose your way is a little more thematic though haha
Oh man, this beam rule gets more complicated every time I read it 😂😭
Need an FAQ with a diagram from GW
I feel like a Frag Grenade/close Flamer as a 3 APL counterattack while saving for last activations would be a great tactic against these foul fellgors (ofc not available to hearthkin in this match)
See how the shaman leads a cluster of gors into a specific cover... grenade/blast into it leaving them in 2-4 wounds and suddenly they cannot charge without diying on their activation anymore
Since they go melee the idea is that they only have a few points where they can go... so if you anticipate on that you can punish those areas of the map
Great batrep too guys!! Its great watching you and the after commentary is so insightfull it lets one learn better :)
The issue is the aura is blue so they can space out easily, Charles just didn't think I could get a shot with my missile due to its movement aha
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it (:
It seems like around the 25 minute mark you missed the fact that the Beastman you charged with the Salvager at the top of the screen, would've had a grudge token from killing the model just before. So you would've retained 2 crits. Not that it mattered in the end.
Oh I added the grudge token later but edited it out, my bad 😅
I have a feeling that the Frenzy rule will get adjusted at some point. Maybe by having it so that any crit, whether from shooting or combat, will incapacitate them?
I think they're just gonna rewrite it as an errata
How does the felgpor deathknell's war gong ability work with frenzy? Does a crit still count as a crit for the purpose of killing a frenzied operative? Or does it mean a frenzied unit near the deathknell will always need 2 normal hits to be pushed?
Yeah still counts as a crit, you just gong crits for damage purposes
I really do think the team will be figured out and countered. Their entire gameplay is built around not dying until the end of their next activation, which can only take you so far once people start playing around that. It's a shame that the team was built around such a broken mechanic though as a single nerf or buff absolutely ruins this team, but I think as-is they won't be good in the long run.
It's really not that easy to play around in practice, on paper yeah. Beastmen just have too many threats and tricks to play around counterplay
Would the movement impairment of the utility grenade from the grenade still be ignored by warpaint? It says it requires an additional circle of movement but doesn't state that it subtracts circle from movement.
No, as it's not a cost. However, getting that grenade off vs beastmen is another thing entirely sadly 🥲
There is counterplay vs beastman.. just votaan are the opposite of what it requires... just rush and sit on objectives while shooting them. If you kill them with your shot they are frenzied and cant do mission actions and will die at end of there activation if they are ready. If you dont kill them and just damage them you can kill them when they charge you and they dont frenzy. Beastman will almost auto lose on loot missions as well. If they just make a beastman unable to contest while frenzied no other change would be necessary
Ah, I forgot Beastmen players will just stand in the open and allow this to happen
@Can You Roll a Crit? i sense sarcasm sir... what team "just allows" you to counter them? Nobody is saying beastmen are easy to play against and are not a good team. But you sir are honestly going way overboard with your historical reaction. In fact your very batrep was basically decided by what many games come down to... initiative roles.
Historical reaction? Anyway, it was not decided on initiative rolls, what lost it for me was when I lost control of objective 3 on TP3. By then I didn't have the movement or bodies to contest, especially when they frenzied.
Charles lost more guys but he used the Frenzied beastmen to ensure he got those points as he still controlled them while Frenzied.
On balance that was a match to lose for FB if any, still looked in control despite some high skilled play with the HS and some clutch save rolls. Doesn’t bode well for the majority of factions even if the new season is Open format. They remind me of Gellerpox, strong in the hands of new players, oppressive in the hands of great players. Yet to see evidence of a hard counter.
Agreed, it's mainly still controlling points while Frenzied and not dying to shooting. Just really hard to deal with
You can tell Charles isn’t best designed for beastmen - doesn’t have the full on aggro needed!!
Obviously it’s a terrible match up for the harthkyn, but would a hardier & faster team have faired better in that scenario? Would be interesting to just keep playing the beastmen into every team and seeeing which fairs best
Vet guard throwing bodies forward to take a primary lead and the putting bodies on the line to slow them down and waste frenzies?
Yeah he needs to be more aggro haha. I could but would be draining for whoever plays against Fellgor 😬
You can put a gruge token during the activation, not in the beginning of it? And what about los? On 10th min goat was in conceal near barricade, so he is not not valid target, or no?
Ah it's like the Kommando Nob.
He wasn't near enough to the barricade?
The ability says visible to not within los iirc
Yup, just need to see any part of the model
@@CanYouRollaCrit yeah, sorry for los, but grudge is still applying on the start of his activation or during?
Start
35:47 did you measure with the 3" side there by accident? That Hylas looks way too far away from the Felgor Leader to ignore conceal.
Nah, it was within white of the whip gor, just looks odd from topdown
I'm sorry man... but your gauge is 6-3-2-1 yeah? You absolutely measured that with the 3" side. It's not a huge deal... but this isn't related to the camera parallax in any way.
I appreciate the BR on Open anyways though. Good to see Felgor where they are weakest.
Ah, we were winging it a bit there but it was within 2, just used the 3 inch side for quick reference
Yeah...they do have a little more counter play on open but it's weird. Open doors kinda make them worse to deal with
GW Dwarfs got less toughtnes then elfs ... That's intresting. 7W dwarfs, Ełk elfs 8 w lol
Aeldari superior, space dorfs inferior
Really sad they made them 2 circle move when orks in 40k have a 5 inch move as well but get 3 circle in KT.
They need to change movement to black so they can be 5 black 🥲
Hearth Kin.
I got it right this time 🥲
Well not playing kill team until beastmen are nerfed(
That's fair
Played a game against a friend where we nerfed Frenzy to be once per turning point. Worked acceptably well.
Ah that's interesting