Going to these dark places is necessary. Otherwise people will continue to live in denial. These organizations and the culture of these sports would need to be razed and rebuilt from the ground up in order to ensure that the groups of people perpetuating the abuse of these athletes, both children and adults, are purged from the system. Nevertheless it is so much easier to pretend that everything is fine, that if problems are ignored they'll just go away. The 'it's better to go along to get along' approach is what is hurting the athletes. I don't hold a lot of hope, I think there will be some change in gymnastics for now in response to all of the negative attention, but from the attitudes that accountable people have had in response to being questioned leads me to believe that skating and gymnastics organizations will reluctantly give as little ground as they can only to come back just the same as ever, the past completely forgotten and given no remorse. We have to keep fighting those people. If we take a defeatist attitude about it, then abusers will continue on a path that is free and easy for them.
39:00 - 43:30 in, THANK YOU for this commentary regarding "child phenoms" and parents pushing children to the point of obsession. As a mother to a daughter interested in figure skating, I feel as if it's extremely educational for parents to hear this.. and from it learn to stay balanced, to not go over the top and lose sight of the joy of the sport.
What a treat! You guys are such a huge source of information (one of few) with so much quality to everything you do. Tonya Harding movie is going to be available in Brazil and Portugal I was beyond excited 😆 going to watch it. 💙💙💙 My dream is to see you two there which I know is impossible lol! ty again for an another amazing video!!!
Dave, you're 100% right here. I think your theory of collusion ("let's sacrifice a few lesser skaters to make it seem like we care about clean sport") is also valid. When I took Russian in college I had a teacher from the Old Soviet era. I was the only (African)American in class, the other students had Russian roots and were born there and left for one reason or another. On quizzes, tests, THE FINAL EXAM: the students would blatantly cheat! Being the good (and paranoid) student I was, I refused to partake. I managed to get an A in the course and afterward asked the teacher about the egregious level of cheating. She simply said, "It's accepted in Russia." BOOM. There you have it.... **This is no way an indictment on every Russian EVER in life. Just my experience with my Russian teacher and the culture of her classroom.
Completely agree with your point about the culture of gymnastics and figure skating playing a big role in these huge crises. It really makes me worry for the future of these beautiful sports because how are you going to solve things like age and subjectivity? They require early development and are inherently subjective because of the artistic side and the complex technical side. But what mother wants to put her daughter in these sports after times like these?
Speaking of fluff pieces - I cry every time I see the Shen and Zhao 2004 worlds fluff piece. It’s heart wrenching how much they went through to achieve greatness.
This was a really interesting podcast because it had a little bit of everything. As a "superfan" of skating from 1990-to mid 2000, I loved all the mentions of skaters and their fluff pieces. I enjoyed your connections between sport and entertainment and the existential questions of competing in a sport that in the end, really won't change people's lives. I hope you continue to gently poke the bear(s) that create the cancer in elite sports. And OMG that synchronized swimming routine!!! Yassssss!!!!! I would like to see some men on the synchro swim teams...after all there are men on synchro skating teams, right? Xoxo
Dave, you were always such a huge Martha and ranch fan and suggesting we do the same for skaters. I applaud you for seeing reason now. While gymnastics got the results, it's clearly not worth it, and I'm fine with our American skaters being behind the Russians if it keeps them sane and healthy. Like Mattie said... there are other ways to build champions. I hope we can find something that works and produces results in skating (and gymnastics) while keeping the athletes wellbeing a priority.
Maria Zumhagen Here is the thing, I still think we can have training camps and leadership by individuals with checks on power. I think there need to be strong policies in place - as there should be when athletes travel to competitions. Encouraging competition can be very positive. People chosen need to be chosen wisely. I don’t think having an experienced advisor (or panel of 3) is bad. There actually seem to be too many people involved in decisions in skating that the direction and decisions are neither consistent nor decisive. I think you need to be a public setting. I think the facility needs to be close to medical care. I think there need to be safeguards in place and term limits.
TheSkatingLesson Yes, I think very basic policies like not allowing an adult alone with a child in a room could have alleviated many of the problems in gymnastics. I agree that in American skating the problem isnt even so much that the training is lax but thats its haphazard. Our federation doesnt have structured training programs and our athletes are largely left to do their own thing with their personal team. I do see this as beneficial in promoting individual freedom though as opposed to mandatory cooperation with a federation. I think a huge challenge is that these elite athletes in question are minors. There arent that many other sports where the best of the best are 15 or 16 years old. At that age the parents need to be informed and giving consent to decisions, and the checks and balances have to be more stringent when you're dealing with minors. Ps thanks for responding, I'm a longtime fan of the show.
Yeah, I'm ok with American skaters not dominating since they end up having much longer careers with a better transition into real life. Skating rinks are a different environment from training gyms also with the mix of figure skaters and hockey players at both the child and adult levels. Raf always wanted a closed door rink evironment but I don't think it's the way to go until the atheletes are adults.
Also, slight tangent... When I watched Michelle's Salome when I was a preteen/teenager I thought it was awesome. Now when I watch it, while its musical and brilliantly choreographed, it icks me out that she was 15. I'd rather deal with Alinas juniorishness. Let the kids skate kid programs. (And the adults skate adult programs- I'm looking at you, bradie tennell.).
I don't know how reliable the source (Magazine Friday) is, but Nikolai said he was going to marry Miki on 2011 but didn't happen bc Miki's mom hated him, and Miki got pregnant and had abortion when they were dating.
Ya it’s kind of scary thinking of the substances the athletes may be taking & what affect it has on their bodies... My grandpa took steroids for his breathing & they deteriorated the muscles in his legs, so later on he had to be in a wheel chair.
sashimi73 thank you. It was during my semester abroad in London (2007). We had been partners in News Writing and Reporting for two semesters prior to the semester. Cassandra was a great girl.
Oh Russia...competing at the Olympics, stripped of your country's identity and honour...that's gotta be the biggest slap in the face. Crazy shit is going down next month and I'm here and ready for it
I agree with Jonathan's point about nationalism with the Olympics. I don't think it should be the countries decision on who to send and there also shouldn't be a limit on the amount a country can send. Instead I think they should have to qualify to the Olympics through an international event. All in all what I'm trying to say is there’s probably 4 Japanese skaters and 6-7 Russians that deserve to go and that I would prefer watching over Larkyn Austman...
Thing is though that other Winter sports are subjective but the judges go by the rules. I mean look at the half pipe or the moguls or the aerials. They are all judged sports but they are judged fairly. You never hear everyone saying "oh Tora should have won the gold medal last time" or "David Morris was robbed of a Gold". They just accept the results because the rules are applied evenly
If people are interested in abusive sport systems, especially with doping involved, go look at the investigations and studys in regards to East Germany. Some years after Germany was reunited there was some semblance of working through that stuff, and many victims learned just then what was in the pills they took. Since it's relatively well documented who doped with what, it made studies into the long term effects possible. The results are pretty devastating, especially for female athletes who took testosterone.
I don't want to speculate who did or didn't get doped by the state, but one figure skater, Katrin Kanitz (pairs) is a certified doping victim and is active in educating the public about the East German sports system. It has also been said by people involved in the system that they did dope every Olympic sport besides sailing and rhytmic gymnastics.
I just came across an article about the reporter Scott Reid's investigations of USA Gymnastics in 2004 and 2011 (search "Orange County Register has investigated abuse in USA Gymnastics since 2004"). Scott Reid talks about how USA National Team Gymnastics athletes who went on to the Georgia program, the coach there (I'm assuming that's Suzanne Yoculan) said they were coming in to her program basically emotionally broken. And one of Reid's investigations found out about sexual abuse of athletes, which led to changes at USA Gymnastics, but his expose got overshadowed by the Sandusky scandal. This ties in with a lot of information you guys gave in your video. There was also a lot of talk in these articles about taking anti-inflammatories (because of all the injuries), which can lead to kidney disease.
Lloyd Eisler is another one that needs to be tossed out. Skate Canada gave him a useless one year ban for sending explicit messages to a teen, when they should have done more. And the rink where he coaches in LA should be ashamed that they continue to have him on staff.
This is excellent. I've always wondered about Sergei Grinkov too. And Armstrong's cancer. I think growth hormone could enhance the possibility for cancer, not sure the long term potential effects of all this other stuff. It's just insane.
So if the IOC clearly stated that the exclusion of an athlete does not necessarily indicate doping, it calls their whole story into question. There is clearly something else at play here and the fact that they are not being transparent about the exclusion criteria only makes that more apparent. So you can't sit there and claim that Stolbova and Bukin must have done something wrong if their names are not on the list of cleared athletes. Also, I hope everyone understands how much the athletes who are allowed to compete were tested and re-tested and NO evidence was found of any wrongdoing. That means that speculations about them should be put to rest. If you are willing to believe the accusations then you should be willing to believe that the athletes who were cleared are truly clean. The amount of scrutiny all these people were subjected to is beyond what is done to athletes from other countries. Also, this big focus on Russia is concerning in light of issues with athletes from other nations, such as over use of "astma medicine" by Norwegian cross country skiers, meaning that it takes agencies' attention away from what could be going on in other countries
It may simply be that they didn't get tested outside of competitions. Because let's face it if you are doping you're going to make sure you're not testing positive when you KNOW your being tested. Also several of their competitions were in Russia so maybe those tests don't count. They might not be proved to be doping but they can't be 100% sure you're clean. You're not banned your just not invited. Just like you wouldn't be able to attend if your citizenship wasn't in order or if you didn't have high enough scores. Or if your country didn't select you. Since Russia is not competing as a country the IOC can invite whomever they want. And let's be real about this. Punishment is the entire point of this. Athletes were complicit in the scheme either by commision or omission. For athletes that were doping those drugs somehow got into their bodies. Innocent athletes might miss out on an opportunity and it IS just that. One competition in a string of many. It's not a basic human right.
tbh when Jonathan said that because he knows and follows the sport he won't be surprised by Medvedeva or Zagitova dominating it kinda really struck me. Because you keep mentioning Tuktamysheva and how in retrospect her 2015 season was abnormal but what about those Eteri skaters? Medvedeva has lost what? twice in 3 years, same for Zagitova, plus all those juniors that jump triple/triple/triple/triple/triple and quads in that rink and all put their jumps in the second half of their programs because their stamina is SO MUCH BETTER than anyone else. Isn't that suspect? Isn't that a red flag? Especially when that camp is not even that shy about the abusive methods they use and there is a pretty damning track record of what happens to those skaters after their 2 year window of light.
Honestly, I've always suspected there is some enhancement that allows a greater endurance. It doesn't catch up to you until your bones start to break. And it looks like they made her lose weight to relieve the fracture also.
Yep. Summer Olympics are too corporate and buttoned-down compared to the winter games. Winter games brought us Tomba, Eddie The Eagle, Jamaican sledders, and Bodie showing up with an RV and beer belly.
Wow..Stolbova/Klimov were the only Russian skaters I liked other than Dmitri A since Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze. :( However, they did come out of no where and win a pair silver. I never heard of them until then.
Bronze medalists at the 2012 Euros, multiple medals at GP events, 2014 Russian Champions and silver medalists at the 2014 Europeans (beating V&T in the LP). They were hardly newbies.
And the worst part for Alyssa and even her gym mate Morgan White, was that the USA team ended up winning the bronze medal, 10 years later. Also the fact that Tasha wasnt even named an alternate until after the Olympic Trials had ended. This ALL was also bad for Mary Lee Tracey. Oh I cant wait for the interview with Alyssa!
Not ALL gymnasts agree with everything going on and that includes coaches too. Its a touchy issue. I just keep thinking about how grateful, how supportive and how respectful and loving the "Final 5" were to Marta, immediately following their success during the 2016 Olympics. It's just a terrible situation and there is no question there was misconduct on the part of Dr Nassar. I really don't know what to say. My comment was not about the climate of USA gymnastics now, it was about the decision to not include Alyssa on the team after Morgan went down. Mary Lee started with 3 potential athletes to the team, ended up with one and one alternate, named as a team coach, then it was taken away when morgans foot xray showed it was broken and she was no longer a coach of the team.
One thing Dave: I thought this was interesting when all of this came out about how a member of the 2000 Olympics bronze medal team was abused, but they didn't say which one at that time. Of course it ended up being Jamie Dantzscher, but I went back to the clip of the team in 2010 receiving that medal and I was CONVINCED it was going to be Tasha Schwikert. If you go back and look at all members of the team receiving their medals, Tasha OPENLY pushes Steve Penny away from her when he reaches to kiss/hug her. I found that very interesting and I remember wondering why that was. . .Hmmm interesting.
Okay, you explained Stolbova. She might have been mentioned in that report. Hell, I would probably understand if Bobrova were banned. But can somebody explain Bukin to me? As far as I am concerned he wasn't even competing in Sochi, so there is no way he could have been in that report. He has no doping accusations, so what's the logic here?
OK, can someone please explain to me why people take you SO literally. Do people not realize this is two people having a discussion and not official media outlet. Have they ever seen other youtube videos? There are threads devoted to you on some of the forums.
I agree with Dave on this one. Russia should be banned completely as unfair and sad it would be for clean athletes. They just need to learn not to cheat.
Bright Darkness ...You eloquently called himself...Are these stupid people like you many in the world? I think the US state Department like you, stupidity pays the Commission
And you need to learn a very important for every human difference between justice and oppression. Because by advocating punishment of the innocent you support the latter.
It not punishment on the innocent, it's consequences for the governing bodies/people in command or whoever decided it would be good idea to dope. To be honest there seems to be no way to punish the big names without hurting a few innocent in the process but it may be good in results in the long run. Not only clean sports but also better health for those athletes (we really don't know what effects these drugs may have on the body).
Consequences. For athletes who was cleared from all allegations? For those who didn't failed their tests? For those who was junior skater during Sochi? "No way to punish the goverment without hurting a few innocent in the process." Imagine yourself in their place. Responsible for all the shady shit the goverment of your country did (whatever county may it be). I like how casually you speak of it. Do you know that is already had been done? Russian Olympic Team is banned. Flag and anthem are banned too as well as Mutko and the whole Russian Olypic Committee. Your much desired "justice" was served no matter how shaky evidence has been. So why are you so bloodthirsty? Why do you want to savage innocent athletes anyway?
@Redoaltor Thank You! This too is the sticking point for me, that Dave and others can so casually and flippantly destroy dreams and life's work. That instead of the US justice motto of "innocent until proven guilty", they just want to blanket ban every Russian athlete regardless of actual evidence against every individual. It's akin to telling Dave that because his parents may have done something wrong, he as a result of being their child is treated as guilty despite his only crime having been is being born to his parents of which he had no control over.
Dave...or Jonathon? Could you give me the names of some of the documentaries your are talking about to watch? I saw the one with Lance Armstrong...and PS it is well known that steroids can not always but can cause cancer.
I thought that athlete could be barred from olympics only if their fault is proven. But IOC refused Bukin without any explonation. I think that it's wrong to refuse athlete only because of suspicions. With this logic every sportsman could be barred if he or she has ever been competing
What are you talking about? Osmond routinely scores 200+ with falls (TEB, GPF) and Miyahara just scored a 207 at 4CC with both URs and a fall. Yes, all edge calls and under-rotations should be called but it's the Olympic season and the sport needs to break records to gain the casual, once-in-every-4-years viewers. They're not gonna do this with strict judging panels. To pretend Medvedeva is the only one benefitting from this 2-year inflation is hypocritical to say the least.
Who does curling? SCOTTISH PEOPLE. ‘GB’ curling is all Scotland. I stayed in this shut town that had ‘the world’s first hotel with an indoor curling rink’
Oscar nominations to Margot Robbie and Allison Jenney! Dave you must be in 7th heaven! Will we see an Oscar's recap? Will Tonya come to the ceremony? About Russia.. I'm more black and white about this. I'm for excluding the whole country. Yes the innocent will be hurt but a lesson must be learned. Think about the time it takes to find out who is naughty or nice!
This is really scarey. Two people making wild conclusions or deductons. They are making wild accusations, allegations, and really neither are skating experts - they are rather great skating fans with some skating background but they are self appointed and self anointed skating experts that a some people follow. Some real wild comments that are evocative, suggestive and maybe far fetched. Really bad.They should be sued.
russia should be banned altogether in any form (as independent athletes or some other such special vehicle) from the olympics until they can prove beyond reasonable doubt that their state-sponsored doping system has been axed for good. not before that.
It's really a shame about Stepanova and Bukin. I like that team -- a lot. But I know doping and cheating cannot be (and should not be in any way) tolerated. Still, it's a shame. :(
Russia should be banned. If you cheat how is it fair. How can we trust the results of athletes from Russia who clearly failed drug test after drug test. IOC needs to own up and punish Russian team.
mish098aimer agreed she left a legacy behind. You already have young skaters wanting to be her and follow in her footsteps yet people barely remember Adelina despite her winning the gold.
Oh I just wanted to mention that after Sochi to validate sotnikova winning the scoring has always been faulty 😊 with certain people getting 200+ points despite having very bad techniques.
![Ian x Vanessa [Wedding Film]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xOWMqjT_xGk/mqdefault.jpg)
![Ian x Vanessa [Wedding Film]](/img/tr.png)
![สาวเมืองเพชร - ธีเดช ทองอภิชาติ [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kEt7F9PvO3I/mqdefault.jpg)
Going to these dark places is necessary. Otherwise people will continue to live in denial. These organizations and the culture of these sports would need to be razed and rebuilt from the ground up in order to ensure that the groups of people perpetuating the abuse of these athletes, both children and adults, are purged from the system. Nevertheless it is so much easier to pretend that everything is fine, that if problems are ignored they'll just go away. The 'it's better to go along to get along' approach is what is hurting the athletes. I don't hold a lot of hope, I think there will be some change in gymnastics for now in response to all of the negative attention, but from the attitudes that accountable people have had in response to being questioned leads me to believe that skating and gymnastics organizations will reluctantly give as little ground as they can only to come back just the same as ever, the past completely forgotten and given no remorse. We have to keep fighting those people. If we take a defeatist attitude about it, then abusers will continue on a path that is free and easy for them.
39:00 - 43:30 in, THANK YOU for this commentary regarding "child phenoms" and parents pushing children to the point of obsession. As a mother to a daughter interested in figure skating, I feel as if it's extremely educational for parents to hear this.. and from it learn to stay balanced, to not go over the top and lose sight of the joy of the sport.
Also.. you mentioned Passions! I used to love that soap opera! The doll's name was Timmy ;)
Years go on and we're still on the same page :/
Omg! I'd totally forgotten about that amazing sychronized swimming routine. Awesome!!!
Larry just got a 175 year sentence. Love Judge Rosemarie Aquilina.
On a less serious note - guys, the sound quality is amazing here, Jonathan’s lovely voice can be heard to his full potential 😍
What a treat! You guys are such a huge source of information (one of few) with so much quality to everything you do.
Tonya Harding movie is going to be available in Brazil and Portugal I was beyond excited 😆 going to watch it. 💙💙💙 My dream is to see you two there which I know is impossible lol!
ty again for an another amazing video!!!
Dave, you're 100% right here. I think your theory of collusion ("let's sacrifice a few lesser skaters to make it seem like we care about clean sport") is also valid.
When I took Russian in college I had a teacher from the Old Soviet era. I was the only (African)American in class, the other students had Russian roots and were born there and left for one reason or another. On quizzes, tests, THE FINAL EXAM: the students would blatantly cheat! Being the good (and paranoid) student I was, I refused to partake.
I managed to get an A in the course and afterward asked the teacher about the egregious level of cheating. She simply said, "It's accepted in Russia."
BOOM. There you have it....
**This is no way an indictment on every Russian EVER in life. Just my experience with my Russian teacher and the culture of her classroom.
Thank you for the videos...they are great.
Completely agree with your point about the culture of gymnastics and figure skating playing a big role in these huge crises. It really makes me worry for the future of these beautiful sports because how are you going to solve things like age and subjectivity? They require early development and are inherently subjective because of the artistic side and the complex technical side. But what mother wants to put her daughter in these sports after times like these?
Speaking of fluff pieces - I cry every time I see the Shen and Zhao 2004 worlds fluff piece. It’s heart wrenching how much they went through to achieve greatness.
This was a really interesting podcast because it had a little bit of everything. As a "superfan" of skating from 1990-to mid 2000, I loved all the mentions of skaters and their fluff pieces. I enjoyed your connections between sport and entertainment and the existential questions of competing in a sport that in the end, really won't change people's lives. I hope you continue to gently poke the bear(s) that create the cancer in elite sports. And OMG that synchronized swimming routine!!! Yassssss!!!!! I would like to see some men on the synchro swim teams...after all there are men on synchro skating teams, right? Xoxo
Dave, you were always such a huge Martha and ranch fan and suggesting we do the same for skaters. I applaud you for seeing reason now. While gymnastics got the results, it's clearly not worth it, and I'm fine with our American skaters being behind the Russians if it keeps them sane and healthy. Like Mattie said... there are other ways to build champions. I hope we can find something that works and produces results in skating (and gymnastics) while keeping the athletes wellbeing a priority.
Maria Zumhagen Here is the thing, I still think we can have training camps and leadership by individuals with checks on power. I think there need to be strong policies in place - as there should be when athletes travel to competitions. Encouraging competition can be very positive. People chosen need to be chosen wisely. I don’t think having an experienced advisor (or panel of 3) is bad. There actually seem to be too many people involved in decisions in skating that the direction and decisions are neither consistent nor decisive. I think you need to be a public setting. I think the facility needs to be close to medical care. I think there need to be safeguards in place and term limits.
TheSkatingLesson Yes, I think very basic policies like not allowing an adult alone with a child in a room could have alleviated many of the problems in gymnastics. I agree that in American skating the problem isnt even so much that the training is lax but thats its haphazard. Our federation doesnt have structured training programs and our athletes are largely left to do their own thing with their personal team. I do see this as beneficial in promoting individual freedom though as opposed to mandatory cooperation with a federation. I think a huge challenge is that these elite athletes in question are minors. There arent that many other sports where the best of the best are 15 or 16 years old. At that age the parents need to be informed and giving consent to decisions, and the checks and balances have to be more stringent when you're dealing with minors. Ps thanks for responding, I'm a longtime fan of the show.
Yeah, I'm ok with American skaters not dominating since they end up having much longer careers with a better transition into real life. Skating rinks are a different environment from training gyms also with the mix of figure skaters and hockey players at both the child and adult levels.
Raf always wanted a closed door rink evironment but I don't think it's the way to go until the atheletes are adults.
Also, slight tangent... When I watched Michelle's Salome when I was a preteen/teenager I thought it was awesome. Now when I watch it, while its musical and brilliantly choreographed, it icks me out that she was 15. I'd rather deal with Alinas juniorishness. Let the kids skate kid programs. (And the adults skate adult programs- I'm looking at you, bradie tennell.).
Natasha Estrada Unfortunately, many current skaters do struggle with the transition from Sports.
Speaking of predators...Nikolai Morozov
Really? What about him?
He is the coach Jonathan mentioned who married his pupil on her 18th birthday.
And him dating Miki Ando while she was his pupil at 17.
I don't know how reliable the source (Magazine Friday) is, but Nikolai said he was going to marry Miki on 2011 but didn't happen bc Miki's mom hated him, and Miki got pregnant and had abortion when they were dating.
Where does that information come from? SHOCKED!
Ya it’s kind of scary thinking of the substances the athletes may be taking & what affect it has on their bodies... My grandpa took steroids for his breathing & they deteriorated the muscles in his legs, so later on he had to be in a wheel chair.
And omg Dave! I'm sorry about your college roommate. :(
sashimi73 thank you. It was during my semester abroad in London (2007). We had been partners in News Writing and Reporting for two semesters prior to the semester. Cassandra was a great girl.
That's awful. Could not have been an easy thing.
Dave Lease, had to watch both the Atlanta synchro routine and Bill May winning Mixed Synchro.
Thank you!!
this was very interesting to listen to, very informative, thank you guys.
Oh Russia...competing at the Olympics, stripped of your country's identity and honour...that's gotta be the biggest slap in the face.
Crazy shit is going down next month and I'm here and ready for it
Eh, they are capable of invading another country in revenge.
I agree with Jonathan's point about nationalism with the Olympics. I don't think it should be the countries decision on who to send and there also shouldn't be a limit on the amount a country can send. Instead I think they should have to qualify to the Olympics through an international event. All in all what I'm trying to say is there’s probably 4 Japanese skaters and 6-7 Russians that deserve to go and that I would prefer watching over Larkyn Austman...
Thing is though that other Winter sports are subjective but the judges go by the rules. I mean look at the half pipe or the moguls or the aerials. They are all judged sports but they are judged fairly. You never hear everyone saying "oh Tora should have won the gold medal last time" or "David Morris was robbed of a Gold". They just accept the results because the rules are applied evenly
If people are interested in abusive sport systems, especially with doping involved, go look at the investigations and studys in regards to East Germany. Some years after Germany was reunited there was some semblance of working through that stuff, and many victims learned just then what was in the pills they took. Since it's relatively well documented who doped with what, it made studies into the long term effects possible. The results are pretty devastating, especially for female athletes who took testosterone.
I don't want to speculate who did or didn't get doped by the state, but one figure skater, Katrin Kanitz (pairs) is a certified doping victim and is active in educating the public about the East German sports system. It has also been said by people involved in the system that they did dope every Olympic sport besides sailing and rhytmic gymnastics.
About curling. Skip of Denmark is hot AF. Really.
I just came across an article about the reporter Scott Reid's investigations of USA Gymnastics in 2004 and 2011 (search "Orange County Register has investigated abuse in USA Gymnastics since 2004"). Scott Reid talks about how USA National Team Gymnastics athletes who went on to the Georgia program, the coach there (I'm assuming that's Suzanne Yoculan) said they were coming in to her program basically emotionally broken. And one of Reid's investigations found out about sexual abuse of athletes, which led to changes at USA Gymnastics, but his expose got overshadowed by the Sandusky scandal. This ties in with a lot of information you guys gave in your video. There was also a lot of talk in these articles about taking anti-inflammatories (because of all the injuries), which can lead to kidney disease.
Lloyd Eisler is another one that needs to be tossed out. Skate Canada gave him a useless one year ban for sending explicit messages to a teen, when they should have done more. And the rink where he coaches in LA should be ashamed that they continue to have him on staff.
This is excellent. I've always wondered about Sergei Grinkov too. And Armstrong's cancer. I think growth hormone could enhance the possibility for cancer, not sure the long term potential effects of all this other stuff. It's just insane.
at least I am not the only one that is annoyed with how NBC markets and covers the Olympics
So if the IOC clearly stated that the exclusion of an athlete does not necessarily indicate doping, it calls their whole story into question. There is clearly something else at play here and the fact that they are not being transparent about the exclusion criteria only makes that more apparent. So you can't sit there and claim that Stolbova and Bukin must have done something wrong if their names are not on the list of cleared athletes. Also, I hope everyone understands how much the athletes who are allowed to compete were tested and re-tested and NO evidence was found of any wrongdoing. That means that speculations about them should be put to rest. If you are willing to believe the accusations then you should be willing to believe that the athletes who were cleared are truly clean. The amount of scrutiny all these people were subjected to is beyond what is done to athletes from other countries. Also, this big focus on Russia is concerning in light of issues with athletes from other nations, such as over use of "astma medicine" by Norwegian cross country skiers, meaning that it takes agencies' attention away from what could be going on in other countries
It may simply be that they didn't get tested outside of competitions. Because let's face it if you are doping you're going to make sure you're not testing positive when you KNOW your being tested. Also several of their competitions were in Russia so maybe those tests don't count.
They might not be proved to be doping but they can't be 100% sure you're clean. You're not banned your just not invited. Just like you wouldn't be able to attend if your citizenship wasn't in order or if you didn't have high enough scores. Or if your country didn't select you. Since Russia is not competing as a country the IOC can invite whomever they want.
And let's be real about this. Punishment is the entire point of this. Athletes were complicit in the scheme either by commision or omission. For athletes that were doping those drugs somehow got into their bodies.
Innocent athletes might miss out on an opportunity and it IS just that. One competition in a string of many. It's not a basic human right.
tbh when Jonathan said that because he knows and follows the sport he won't be surprised by Medvedeva or Zagitova dominating it kinda really struck me. Because you keep mentioning Tuktamysheva and how in retrospect her 2015 season was abnormal but what about those Eteri skaters? Medvedeva has lost what? twice in 3 years, same for Zagitova, plus all those juniors that jump triple/triple/triple/triple/triple and quads in that rink and all put their jumps in the second half of their programs because their stamina is SO MUCH BETTER than anyone else. Isn't that suspect? Isn't that a red flag? Especially when that camp is not even that shy about the abusive methods they use and there is a pretty damning track record of what happens to those skaters after their 2 year window of light.
Honestly, I've always suspected there is some enhancement that allows a greater endurance. It doesn't catch up to you until your bones start to break. And it looks like they made her lose weight to relieve the fracture also.
Yep. Summer Olympics are too corporate and buttoned-down compared to the winter games. Winter games brought us Tomba, Eddie The Eagle, Jamaican sledders, and Bodie showing up with an RV and beer belly.
Wow..Stolbova/Klimov were the only Russian skaters I liked other than Dmitri A since Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze. :(
However, they did come out of no where and win a pair silver. I never heard of them until then.
Bronze medalists at the 2012 Euros, multiple medals at GP events, 2014 Russian Champions and silver medalists at the 2014 Europeans (beating V&T in the LP). They were hardly newbies.
And the worst part for Alyssa and even her gym mate Morgan White, was that the USA team ended up winning the bronze medal, 10 years later. Also the fact that Tasha wasnt even named an alternate until after the Olympic Trials had ended. This ALL was also bad for Mary Lee Tracey. Oh I cant wait for the interview with Alyssa!
Mary Lee recently posted a message on Facebook about how devastated she is that the ranch is closing.
Not ALL gymnasts agree with everything going on and that includes coaches too. Its a touchy issue. I just keep thinking about how grateful, how supportive and how respectful and loving the "Final 5" were to Marta, immediately following their success during the 2016 Olympics. It's just a terrible situation and there is no question there was misconduct on the part of Dr Nassar. I really don't know what to say. My comment was not about the climate of USA gymnastics now, it was about the decision to not include Alyssa on the team after Morgan went down. Mary Lee started with 3 potential athletes to the team, ended up with one and one alternate, named as a team coach, then it was taken away when morgans foot xray showed it was broken and she was no longer a coach of the team.
One thing Dave: I thought this was interesting when all of this came out about how a member of the 2000 Olympics bronze medal team was abused, but they didn't say which one at that time. Of course it ended up being Jamie Dantzscher, but I went back to the clip of the team in 2010 receiving that medal and I was CONVINCED it was going to be Tasha Schwikert. If you go back and look at all members of the team receiving their medals, Tasha OPENLY pushes Steve Penny away from her when he reaches to kiss/hug her. I found that very interesting and I remember wondering why that was. . .Hmmm interesting.
Okay, you explained Stolbova. She might have been mentioned in that report. Hell, I would probably understand if Bobrova were banned. But can somebody explain Bukin to me? As far as I am concerned he wasn't even competing in Sochi, so there is no way he could have been in that report. He has no doping accusations, so what's the logic here?
I see a ''figure skating coach with child bride'' google search in my future.
I googled that and Johnny Weir was the #1 ranked result.
OK, can someone please explain to me why people take you SO literally. Do people not realize this is two people having a discussion and not official media outlet. Have they ever seen other youtube videos? There are threads devoted to you on some of the forums.
I agree with Dave on this one. Russia should be banned completely as unfair and sad it would be for clean athletes. They just need to learn not to cheat.
Bright Darkness ...You eloquently called himself...Are these stupid people like you many in the world? I think the US state Department like you, stupidity pays the Commission
And you need to learn a very important for every human difference between justice and oppression. Because by advocating punishment of the innocent you support the latter.
It not punishment on the innocent, it's consequences for the governing bodies/people in command or whoever decided it would be good idea to dope. To be honest there seems to be no way to punish the big names without hurting a few innocent in the process but it may be good in results in the long run. Not only clean sports but also better health for those athletes (we really don't know what effects these drugs may have on the body).
Consequences. For athletes who was cleared from all allegations? For those who didn't failed their tests? For those who was junior skater during Sochi?
"No way to punish the goverment without hurting a few innocent in the process." Imagine yourself in their place. Responsible for all the shady shit the goverment of your country did (whatever county may it be). I like how casually you speak of it. Do you know that is already had been done? Russian Olympic Team is banned. Flag and anthem are banned too as well as Mutko and the whole Russian Olypic Committee. Your much desired "justice" was served no matter how shaky evidence has been. So why are you so bloodthirsty? Why do you want to savage innocent athletes anyway?
@Redoaltor Thank You! This too is the sticking point for me, that Dave and others can so casually and flippantly destroy dreams and life's work. That instead of the US justice motto of "innocent until proven guilty", they just want to blanket ban every Russian athlete regardless of actual evidence against every individual. It's akin to telling Dave that because his parents may have done something wrong, he as a result of being their child is treated as guilty despite his only crime having been is being born to his parents of which he had no control over.
Wait, is Jonathan Beyer from Philly?
Dave...or Jonathon? Could you give me the names of some of the documentaries your are talking about to watch? I saw the one with Lance Armstrong...and PS it is well known that steroids can not always but can cause cancer.
Check out Icarus on Netflix
How do you explain Bukin being banned ? He did't participate in Sochi olympics ...
Its called politics ,guys....
yulia shnukal he participated in other events. It could’ve happened anywhere.
I thought that athlete could be barred from olympics only if their fault is proven. But IOC refused Bukin without any explonation. I think that it's wrong to refuse athlete only because of suspicions. With this logic every sportsman could be barred if he or she has ever been competing
I dont belive..qualcuno capisce la situazione..)This is politic...
Also, I thought Grigori said something about the Sochi skaters being clean...that they didn't drink his cocktails?
On Mclaren report, only Sotnikova was stripped of doping. Is it a coincidence? LOL
Oh, come on... Medvedeva flutz is the same as Osmond flutz or Satoko under rotations that are commonly unnoticed...
But that is the exact point...we give certain skaters passes but don't award them to others...
All should be called but Osmond and Satoko aren't getting 200+ points unlike medvedeva
What are you talking about? Osmond routinely scores 200+ with falls (TEB, GPF) and Miyahara just scored a 207 at 4CC with both URs and a fall. Yes, all edge calls and under-rotations should be called but it's the Olympic season and the sport needs to break records to gain the casual, once-in-every-4-years viewers. They're not gonna do this with strict judging panels. To pretend Medvedeva is the only one benefitting from this 2-year inflation is hypocritical to say the least.
Who does curling? SCOTTISH PEOPLE. ‘GB’ curling is all Scotland. I stayed in this shut town that had ‘the world’s first hotel with an indoor curling rink’
Oscar nominations to Margot Robbie and Allison Jenney! Dave you must be in 7th heaven! Will we see an Oscar's recap? Will Tonya come to the ceremony?
About Russia.. I'm more black and white about this. I'm for excluding the whole country. Yes the innocent will be hurt but a lesson must be learned. Think about the time it takes to find out who is naughty or nice!
This is really scarey. Two people making wild conclusions or deductons. They are making wild accusations, allegations, and really neither are skating experts - they are rather great skating fans with some skating background but they are self appointed and self anointed skating experts that a some people follow. Some real wild comments that are evocative, suggestive and maybe far fetched. Really bad.They should be sued.
Jonathan!!!
I'm not denying it.
russia should be banned altogether in any form (as independent athletes or some other such special vehicle) from the olympics until they can prove beyond reasonable doubt that their state-sponsored doping system has been axed for good. not before that.
It's really a shame about Stepanova and Bukin. I like that team -- a lot. But I know doping and cheating cannot be (and should not be in any way) tolerated. Still, it's a shame. :(
But are you are sure that they were dooped? do you belive in all that they say?
Russia should be banned. If you cheat how is it fair. How can we trust the results of athletes from Russia who clearly failed drug test after drug test. IOC needs to own up and punish Russian team.
42:34 LISTEN KOREANS! #yuna
mish098aimer agreed she left a legacy behind. You already have young skaters wanting to be her and follow in her footsteps yet people barely remember Adelina despite her winning the gold.
Oh I just wanted to mention that after Sochi to validate sotnikova winning the scoring has always been faulty 😊 with certain people getting 200+ points despite having very bad techniques.