Just one more thing to add. A typical story arc has an opportunistic start, a dark middle, and a resolving end. It would make sense that Requiem is the dark middle part of the story.
After watching this video I think the 3 part could be set exactly between the illusion kill of Hugo and Amicia departure to save others. Year time skip is long enough for a game and story.
There was also something else that hints at the Illusion Theory (I've not played the game but I have seen multiple playthroughs) and ties into the blunt head trauma portion: remember how Amicia said "Oh my head" at one point and mentioned how it was spinning especially towards the end when she enters into the Nebula? Not sure if anyone picked up on that but I was thinking about that a lot, along with the whole Illusion theory.
Great video and I love the theory. They deserve a happy ending so no matter how they choose to go about it, it should happen. The only major thing that makes me question this theory is the way Sophia acts in the epilouge. She doesnt arrive grime and bearing bad news, but happy and talking of positive things. I find it hard to believe that even if the worst of the plague had moved on to another part of Europe, word would not have spread to someone like Sophia. Theres enough inconsistencies between game 1 and 2 (Amicia basically forgetting about Ignifer in the span of 6 months even though it saved her life countless times and she crafted it 100's of times) that if they needed to hand wave a few things to make a theory like this work itd be fine.
Awesome work ! Your video gave me chills and hopes and I will never thank you enough for the latter ! It is not only well made, but it also give some very good and solid points. Continue like that, I will share it and give a blue thumb.
Interesting indeed. I am still trying to claw with my thoughts about all this, but you certainly make a good case for this and it dovetails with some of what I was thinking regarding the nature of the Nebula-as-Crucible. Oh yeah, as well as the fact that the First Plague Spike wouldn't really "break" or diminish until several years after Hugo's supposed death, which was in 1349, when the First Spike burned out somewhere around 1352-54 (depending on how we measure it). I'd also chime in and say that Blood Ties is absolutely not the only time you can see Hugo die in Innocence. If you aren't careful playing as Amicia Hugo absolutely can get killed by guards or eaten by rats, and indeed that's part of the challenge for some puzzles in game where Amicia can pass around or through obstacles safely but Hugo cannot. So while I find the lack of seeing Hugo die to be nowhere near as strong a piece of evidence as you do for various reasons (starting with tactum and the perverse effect of how what is most important or most moving sometimes being hidden from view, a fact that many Old Masters such as Brugel the Elder's Road to Calvary and Orson Welles with Harry Lime's death in The Third Man), it certainly IS a piece of circumstantial evidence and all the more telling in light of how many times people probably saw Hugo die in Innocence, well before Requiem was released. I would also note that the Black Death spread way beyond Europe; in fact it originated somewhere in Central Asia and arrived in Europe with the Mongol Ordas that besieged Italian cities in Crimea, with the refugees bringing the death back. So there is a lot more than just Europe that could be explored, particularly places like Egypt, the Levant, and so forth. Much respect for the evenhanded and reasonable overviews.
I loved this video!! And the photomode thing just seems like such a hint to me. And so does other things aswell. But theres one thing i would like to counter argue. Its the phoenix theory. It could just symbolize that the macula will always be reborn. No matter what. Since bacillius had a phoenix in his tent in his room. Just something i thought of (still Manifesting hugo is alive
There is one thing that might be relevant: Amicia and Hugo were lured to La Cuna by macula, but why? Why would macula bother to lure them there just to find out about previous siblings? Maybe it wanted to show them that both the carrier and the protector are important and that the issue was that the protector was killed. But they read it wrong and so did we, so macula then arranged Hugo's death to make Amicia stop trying to protect him as it didn't really work (which is exactly what Hugo is explaining her in macula). What if the carrier stops to be a carrier only when the protector stops to be a protector?
Macula is in the blood of its Carrier, it doesn't simply leave or vanish if a Protector stops behaving as one, that's kinda ridiculous notion. I like the rest of the comment though.
I just had a revelation: not of anything new, but I finally figured out how exactly to express/describe the problem that this dilemma of "👍Illusion Theory in a third game - 👎 Illusion Theory in a third game" has been presenting itself throughout the discourse in the community. It's that right now, A Plague Tale, in this situation, suffers from a very particular variant of "ludonarrative dissonance" (I'll call it LND for convenience purposes). Now, we know that LND that I just mentioned is usually reserved for the apparent discrepancies between gameplay and storytelling in games. Well, this "particular variant" present in A Plague Tale isn't concerning gameplay all that much. Whereas classic LND is story vs gameplay, this other one would be more like "themes vs story" type of discrepancy. I came to this conclusion by observing the trend and opinions of people for and against the theory-based plot. Those against tend to mostly base their view on two things, onne of which takes up at least 80 or 90% of their argument. To them, "respecting/upholding the themes" is most important, and since to them the themes of Requiem are those of "tragedy" or "letting go", I-Theory would inevitably undermine that. The second, smaller point by them would be one of "anti-climax" if Hugo returns, but they mostly mention it in passing, with the ThEmEs having to be preserved at any cost. However, this discrepancy becomes apparent right when many realise that really, any other alternative for a third game just doesn't cut it as well as Hugo in a third game would, "anti-climax" or themes be damned. Modern day game? No. Aelia-Basilius? Nope, maybe a DLC. Multiple Carriers? Nope. Amicia-solo? No thanks. None of those plots feel right, even if I'm sure some will disagree. The situation is really one where the writers would likely be forced to choose: either a good plot that preserves the essence of A Plague Tale, OR, a plot that upholds the "tragedy, dark realism" of Requiem. Both simultaneously just can't be accomplished, I think. Themes, or quality plot. Choose, devs. I guess that's the price of enforcing the darker, tragic themes in Requiem in spite of Innocence's more relaxed ones. As some have said back then, it appears they've written themselves into a corner with this.
I absolutely agree that none of the ideas would make a good sequel on their own. But I think you can still create a game that has both a good plot and preserves the theme. My idea would be some kind of compromise with a 2-strand story. For example, as mentioned at the end of Requiem, we follow Amicia as she uncovers clues, and at the same time follow the new carrier and protector in a modern timeline, like a scavenger hunt. Of course, this would be a lot of work for the writers and would require great care to get right. But I think it would be absolutely possible.
That is... Kinda unrealistic given what we know, plus I don't honestly see the worth of going that route. Basically the one and only "advantage" such a direction would have over the classic Illusion Theory idea is it appearing less anti-climactic, at least at first glance. But anyhow, considering the massive holes in the lore, I guess it's somewhat possible for writers to pull it off and justify it sensibly enough, especially since Amicia is Hugo's closest blood relative, apart from being a Protector as well.
One thing I thought was strange is that if it was not an illusion, how did Amicia and Lucas escape after the black screen. Since Hugo was keeping rats from them, after he was killed, rats should have eaten them. But I think Asobo just left gate open, so that they can decide later what to do. I would say that Hugos death is by far saddest death in any video game (and probably even all of visual media) and that is pretty high artistic value. Then there is a small problem of Hugos voice actor reaching first threshold of puberty and if Asobo wanted to bring Hugo back, they would recast him (and it would not sit right with some fans). But then there is money: Sucess of plague tale might "force" them to make 3rd game and I can not see it working without Hugo. And even if devalues Requiems impact, if Plague Tale story writer plays his cards right he just might create happiest moment in gaming history.
Honestly I wouldn't go that far as far as Hugo's voice actor reaching puberty. The First Spike of the main Plague Outbreak lasted for a good third to half a decade after Hugo's supposed death in the game, which would bring Hugo to either early teens or preteens. Which would make an early puberty but hardly an unprecedented one, and for a game set near the historical end of the Black Death around 1353 or 1354 the year gap and real life puberty would help handily.
@@vandeheyeric I think teen Hugo would not work for Plague Tale series. Also considering its a game about boy who can control rats, and hugely character driven story, not sticking to real Black Death timeline would be logical.
@@ulariv1701 both your and his concerns are a bit exaggerated. The game can follow the real life timeline while retaining Hugo's youth, because by 1353 (at the latest) Hugo would've been 8 or 9, which is pre even pre-teen.
@@YTuseraL2694 Yes that would be fine, but voice actor is 12 i think, and by the time 3rd game is far enough to start recording lines, hes voice is probably dropped too much. But I think it would not be really a problem to recast Hugos VA, however some fans might feel different.
Interesting theory, but it's probably just a foolish hope ... I've finished the game a week ago, and it was so emotionaly intense... I'm still "recovering". I really hope you're right, that the next game will be Amicia trying to help the next macula carrier, and finding hugo is still alive in one way or another... Because it's horrible if Hugo path ends like this .... But, to be honest, all those evidence and clues gathered are worthless, imo ... : 1 : natural law stops in macula : i believe it's more a way to explain what amicia sees down there ... the statue, the combat against those giant rats-humanoid-shape ... and even hugo voice, hugo's presence, the view of people we've met during the game dying... Tbh, I don't even think all those things are real, except the ending when we're joined by lucas.... I think hugo voice, hugo appeareance, is all inside Amicia's head... And what she realized that what she feared the most is true ... Hugo reached the last threshold, and he's killing everyone, no way to go back, and he have to be stoped... She'll have to stop him, she'll have to kill him ... Then she come to its senses, and found lucas, to act ... 2 : we don't see hugo dies , and innoncence we see him dying : In innoncence, we see him getting coverd by rats when we failed.... It's like a game over, please retry... not really intense, not where the story goes... But here, in Requiem, it's part of the scenario.... He have to die ... That's a much more impact than a " you die, please retry" ... And getting covered by rats it's different from seeing a little boy getting his skull splat by a rock ... Thats why the black screen 3 : the tone of Hugo voice : you're right, it's the same kind of tone when macula has taking over him after seeing his mother die, and when he's holding amicia hand in the nebula.. But I see this more like an "appeased" Hugo in both ways... And like I said, i don't think what's happening in the nebula is real, i believe it's more in Alicia mind ... I think Hugo's mind left as soon as he reached the last threshold, when we're fighting on the beach the count and we see the gigantic explosion... I think there's no more hugo at this point, saddly 4: hugo wardrobe : as i think what's in the nebulas is all in amicia's mind, and not real, that's normal hugo is shown with is usual habit ... Not those given by this mad count and his wife ..... And when things get real, when Amicia see him bounded to the tree, he's just wearing a shirt, he just remove, or get his clothes torn 5 : photo mode: the option is just to hide character by hiding their models... But the hugo bounded on a tree is probably another model ... Not hugo, not a tree, but a hugo-tree .... It's more a technical limitation But my heart really hope you're right, and that we found a third game were we found hugo andfinally cured him ... "A Plage Tale : Recovery" why not ? :')
Honestly, I don't find any of those counters of yours to be solid enough rebuttals, especially those concerning the question of what happens in the Nebula and what "all natural laws stop here" means, in a greater context. Once again, that most of it plays out in Amicia's head is not a counter in and of itself. What's more, some other versions of this theory go with that exact possibility in mind; that it was indeed in Amicia's head, her being influenced by an empowered Macula within the confines of the Nebula cloud. The thing about us seeing Hugo die in Innocence is presented here merely to show that seeing him die in general, in any context (ending of Requiem included), is not something completely without precedent, so the argument that it would supposedly be "too traumatic" for us to endure is a bit of an over-exaggeration, notwithstanding all the emotional stakes and whatnot.
The only thing I see that complicates the Illusion Theory is that we were given a hint that the next installment may be centered in the future. We were no longer be roaming these fascinating medieval universes. Perhaps the illusion would be a trip back in time to reconnect with the curse of the Macula ...since we were be back into modern times. I don't know, whichever they decide to do, I hope they make it official! I keep revisiting these games. I love them so much! I am ready for A Plague Tale III‼
The hint you're talking about is that scene in the post-credits, with the baby-arm. For now, the purpose of that scene isn't to suggest a sequel in another century, but to say, symbolically, "Macula is never-ending cycle" (which I have a low opinion of). Many are against such proposition (for a modern day game), and even certain high ranking members of the team have expressed doubt. Choteau, game director said as much; if third game ever comes along, it would/should center around Amicia (and perhaps Hugo as well, hence the Illusion Theory).
She was, but it's not important what color the clothing element is, but *what* it is. And blue cloak is just that here, an element that elegantly ties in with the proverb mention in the video.
What if vodaun was part of the macula because did anyone else find it strange he lived in a city already ravaged by rats and he was already hostile towards the group? But who knows cus a ceiling beam kills him so it's kind of a head scratcher
I find it hard to believe that the Macula is capable of creating a physical manifestation of a human being. Aside from that, the crew mentions him several times before we meet him, as do the soldiers searching for him. For all we know, he lived in the Red City for years before the plague reached them As for his attitude, he's a member of The Order, and only knows what they know, but passes it all off as fact without even attempting to see things from another perspective. His views were challenged, and he took great offense to that
@@krazydragonyt5811 well, good point. a bunch of what ifs came to mind and I thought maybe if the macula could create manifestations of Hugo and giant landscapes of birds statues and other things why not something like that but I see that could a been a little off
This is interesting but I don’t believe it at all. Killing a character just off screen is frequently used as sign of respect like when Stannis or Olenna aren’t seen bloody or sagging. The Macula doesn’t have to be cautious if it’s already won. Why “retreat” when it could just send rats to devour Amicia. Also, the “it was all a dream” ending trope is extremely unpopular cliche. Maybe they’d use it but it would cheapen the game considerably.
I must disagree with this take. Firstly, regarding your take on off-screen killings, no one reasonable suggests that the only alternative to what we've got is us literally getting to see the instance of him getting hit by a stone/bolt and dying. One small, short cut-scene of Amicia and Lucas grieving with his lifeless body in her arms in the aftermath would've been more than enough. Such a scene wouldn't even need to outright show him or his wounds up-close. Countless ways to go about it, really. If written well enough, Hugo's return or rather, revelation could add new, previously unpredicted value to the saga as a whole. It doesn't necessarily cheapen, let alone destroy what came before it: it recontextualizes it and additionally opens up the Macula as a vicious, insidious antagonistic force/entity even more, and in a way that would kind of feel natural to it.
@@YTuseraL2694 But in what way would it be recontextualized that would be satisfying? The world actually isn’t saved so the third story just has a god Hugo in the nebulous? It’s very rare that a story has a person magically return that keeps the strength. Hugo isn’t and shouldn’t be Gandalf. Let him have peace, finally. What I meant by cheapen is both stories are completely focused on saving Hugo from the first minutes on. Even Amicia is secondary. We do this despite literally destroying cities from his very presence. “I think you know” is a pretty powerful statement to the player! I had thought it’d be best to kill Hugo actually 2/3 into the second game. After the Phoenix lie, it seemed clear to me. If he’s the source, end him to protect all the world. If he’s not actually dead all Amicia sacrificed is no longer a sacrifice. I’d hate that.
This hypothesis is too far-fetched imo. First, stating “it was just a dream” and that Hugo is alive just devalues the story moral and the plot itself. Throughout the whole game we’ve repeatedly been seeing things going tragic way. Having Hugo alive, what does it bring us apart from breaking the continuity of the story’s theme? The argument about clothes and the fact that we have a black screen is a bit silly - it’s clearly an artistic choice. Hugo’s model in the photo mode is related to a game development process rather than secret hints. Additionally, if Lucas pulls the trigger, Amicia has a different line about him 1 year later. Should she still be affected by an illusion by that time? I doubt it. The part that’s taking place in her head starts with her fall and ends when they started approaching Hugo. That’s very clear to me. You can even turn the camera up and back to see the edge of a bridge way above.
The fact that the plague went on in real life doesn’t relate much to the game - it’s a tale after all and it doesn’t have to correspond to the history at all. Phoenix can be interpreted in a number of ways. But it’s clearly stated that it’s the symbol of the order as well- it’s not related to Hugo exclusively. It also can symbolize the macula or Basilius.
And finally, we have a really complete ending of the story. Hugo reached the 3rd threshold - there’s no way back. He didn’t want to continue destroying more surroundings and decided to sacrifice himself, helping Amicia find a way to him. Hugo was aware of the possibility of that outcome for a large part of the game and he accepted it in the finale. His body got dissolved in light with other rats/macula attributes, I suppose. Amicia remembers his sacrifice and commemorates him at the memorial. That’s a complete, solid ending. Compared to this, the illusion hypothesis is nowhere near on the level. There’s no cure after the 3rd threshold. Having Hugo alive and keeping him suffer and destroy more places doesn’t seem to work for the game.
Nothing about this hypothesis/theory is too far-fetched, and you hardly debunked any of the arguments. Most of the rhetoric against it, both your and by some other people, doesn't really operate on the field of "can it be true?" and empirically analysing observations made of in-game things and story-beats, but on the "should it be true?" which is undeniably less analytical and more concerned with subjective, poetic side of the matter. It's about sugary musing in regards to the "meaning" and all that, nothing else. You discuss themes or messages, and having them serve as final deciders of the future is really tempting thing to do at first but the whole point is to make a good buck, and attempting another sequel is just that (from the point of view of the developers). Even if you personally feel the ending is "solid" or whatever, having a third game that directly attempts to draw the endearment of viewers to some new, never-before-seen characters that are inserted to directly replace/relegate original characters (Hugo and/or Amicia) that are inevitably symbols of this franchise would be, in my humble opinion, infinitely worse than them going with something that goes along the lines of what this video proposes and explains. Modern day game ? No way. A third game, if it ever comes out, should be the last for a tight trilogy and concern the one and only original cast and their struggle against the Macula, and that needs Hugo in most proposed cases and scenarios. And this argument that having Hugo suffer more would be wrong is just disingenuous from a certain point of view. Requiem and to a lesser extent Innocence were suffering fest through and through, with sprinkles of moments of respite. Amplifying the tension and Macula's insidiousness and power at the expense of main characters' well-being must be executed well, but harbors a lot of potential regardless. In fact, many agree that Requiem alone breaks off of Innocence and its themes; for many already these two games have a problem of continuity, and that's a legitimate view to have in all honesty. If Requiem made new atmosphere and even "disrespected" in a way Innocence's more cautious approach to themes, then a third game should have absolutely no obligation to respect or adhere to the letter to what Requiem established, no matter the plot.
@@YTuseraL2694it’s a well written comment, however, you also haven’t countered some of my points. Do you agree that the arguments about Hugo’s clothes and black screen are artistic choices? What about the photo mode? To me it’s not even a legit argument since it’s a technical issue related to game development process. What about Anoxia’s quote about Lucas in the end if it was him to pull the trigger? How’s Amicia being blind a whole year after the event took place? That’s not logical. We were shown a sun rising up after Hugo got shot - it’s a fact. If the sun rose - this means the macula was no more at that time and for the year ahead. Sorry for my comment being a bit chaotic. I don’t speak English much.
@@zest01Firstly, I didn't see the message nor notification, so sorry for not answering. Secondly, don't be angry, but by judging your initial comment(s), mostly by their lengths, I came to assume you're one of those closed-off, arrogant assholes who have decided for themselves whether to support or oppose this theory even before entering these discussions just so you could spite it, with zero traces of humility. Thankfully, judging by your response to me, it appears I'm very much wrong about yourself, so kudos to you 👍. Now regarding the comment, when you say that I didn't counter some of your points, that's because I didn't intend to even attempt that; my reply operated on the aforementioned assumption that you came to defame the contents of this video merely because it would "ruin the message of the game" or some other pretentious bullcrap. I concentrated on the thematic and writing problems and justifying that the Illusion Theory, or really any other scenario in which Hugo turns out not to be dead or unsalvageable, would not NECESSARILY result in badly written second game, even if it would likely feel somewhat anti-climactic to many people, that's all. It would depend on the context and writing quality above all else. As for you asking me about Hugo's clothes and black screen - I neither agree nor disagree. I am more than perfectly aware that these are/can be artistic choices that have zero influence on the plot (still, it'd be flawed). Our point is that these CAN be legitimate arguments in support of the theory, even if they aren't intended as such. No one concerned with this theory actively promotes its "evidence" as absolute truths that are SURE to point towards the writers secretly wanting to implement such scenario. Only that it realistically can be done. Same goes for pretty much all other points you mention. Sun rises at the end: sure, but given Macula's eldritch/mysterious nature in Requiem and how it changes from Innocence, it's open question what it can do: maybe even preserve Hugo, or manipulate anyone inside the Nebula. Again, point is that IT IS POSSIBLE, not that it's truth we are seeking to uncover/predict. Who's Anoxia? Of sorry, I didn't realize that it was a typo for Amicia. Whatever she thinks of Lucas, it's clear that likely one of the scenarios can be canonical, while other is just a stand-in in case player doesn't finish the game. So it can be considered overall immaterial, even if it maybe is not. And for photomode, once again, it's a technicality that neatly happens to present us with a genuinely interesting coincidence, that, again, happens to potentially support some of this theory's proposals. No one is obligated to take it dead seriously, but it's undeniable just how neatly it weaves. No need to apologize for English, I'm also not a native speaker, so I can relate.
Just one more thing to add. A typical story arc has an opportunistic start, a dark middle, and a resolving end. It would make sense that Requiem is the dark middle part of the story.
Me after finishing Requiem: "We are SOOOO done"
me after watching this video: "We are SOOOO back"
Incredibly well researched video!
Mark my words, A Plague Tale 3 is coming!
I can't wait!!!!
After watching this video I think the 3 part could be set exactly between the illusion kill of Hugo and Amicia departure to save others. Year time skip is long enough for a game and story.
There was also something else that hints at the Illusion Theory (I've not played the game but I have seen multiple playthroughs) and ties into the blunt head trauma portion: remember how Amicia said "Oh my head" at one point and mentioned how it was spinning especially towards the end when she enters into the Nebula? Not sure if anyone picked up on that but I was thinking about that a lot, along with the whole Illusion theory.
I will save him the next time, long live Hugo the conqueror
Plague tale part 3 we all want
Great video and I love the theory. They deserve a happy ending so no matter how they choose to go about it, it should happen.
The only major thing that makes me question this theory is the way Sophia acts in the epilouge. She doesnt arrive grime and bearing bad news, but happy and talking of positive things. I find it hard to believe that even if the worst of the plague had moved on to another part of Europe, word would not have spread to someone like Sophia.
Theres enough inconsistencies between game 1 and 2 (Amicia basically forgetting about Ignifer in the span of 6 months even though it saved her life countless times and she crafted it 100's of times) that if they needed to hand wave a few things to make a theory like this work itd be fine.
Awesome work ! Your video gave me chills and hopes and I will never thank you enough for the latter ! It is not only well made, but it also give some very good and solid points. Continue like that, I will share it and give a blue thumb.
The Macula a part of the eye that, when damaged, could cause blurred and 'distorted' vision...
Interesting indeed. I am still trying to claw with my thoughts about all this, but you certainly make a good case for this and it dovetails with some of what I was thinking regarding the nature of the Nebula-as-Crucible. Oh yeah, as well as the fact that the First Plague Spike wouldn't really "break" or diminish until several years after Hugo's supposed death, which was in 1349, when the First Spike burned out somewhere around 1352-54 (depending on how we measure it).
I'd also chime in and say that Blood Ties is absolutely not the only time you can see Hugo die in Innocence. If you aren't careful playing as Amicia Hugo absolutely can get killed by guards or eaten by rats, and indeed that's part of the challenge for some puzzles in game where Amicia can pass around or through obstacles safely but Hugo cannot. So while I find the lack of seeing Hugo die to be nowhere near as strong a piece of evidence as you do for various reasons (starting with tactum and the perverse effect of how what is most important or most moving sometimes being hidden from view, a fact that many Old Masters such as Brugel the Elder's Road to Calvary and Orson Welles with Harry Lime's death in The Third Man), it certainly IS a piece of circumstantial evidence and all the more telling in light of how many times people probably saw Hugo die in Innocence, well before Requiem was released.
I would also note that the Black Death spread way beyond Europe; in fact it originated somewhere in Central Asia and arrived in Europe with the Mongol Ordas that besieged Italian cities in Crimea, with the refugees bringing the death back. So there is a lot more than just Europe that could be explored, particularly places like Egypt, the Levant, and so forth.
Much respect for the evenhanded and reasonable overviews.
By the way, it was me who recommended this to you on Reddit 😉.
@@YTuseraL2694 Thanks, and nice to meet you on TH-cam, YTuseraL.
Before that video i was skeptical about this theory but now... WOW! Thanks :)
I loved this video!! And the photomode thing just seems like such a hint to me. And so does other things aswell. But theres one thing i would like to counter argue. Its the phoenix theory. It could just symbolize that the macula will always be reborn. No matter what. Since bacillius had a phoenix in his tent in his room. Just something i thought of (still Manifesting hugo is alive
There is one thing that might be relevant: Amicia and Hugo were lured to La Cuna by macula, but why? Why would macula bother to lure them there just to find out about previous siblings? Maybe it wanted to show them that both the carrier and the protector are important and that the issue was that the protector was killed. But they read it wrong and so did we, so macula then arranged Hugo's death to make Amicia stop trying to protect him as it didn't really work (which is exactly what Hugo is explaining her in macula). What if the carrier stops to be a carrier only when the protector stops to be a protector?
Macula is in the blood of its Carrier, it doesn't simply leave or vanish if a Protector stops behaving as one, that's kinda ridiculous notion. I like the rest of the comment though.
I just had a revelation: not of anything new, but I finally figured out how exactly to express/describe the problem that this dilemma of "👍Illusion Theory in a third game - 👎 Illusion Theory in a third game" has been presenting itself throughout the discourse in the community.
It's that right now, A Plague Tale, in this situation, suffers from a very particular variant of "ludonarrative dissonance" (I'll call it LND for convenience purposes).
Now, we know that LND that I just mentioned is usually reserved for the apparent discrepancies between gameplay and storytelling in games.
Well, this "particular variant" present in A Plague Tale isn't concerning gameplay all that much.
Whereas classic LND is story vs gameplay, this other one would be more like "themes vs story" type of discrepancy.
I came to this conclusion by observing the trend and opinions of people for and against the theory-based plot. Those against tend to mostly base their view on two things, onne of which takes up at least 80 or 90% of their argument. To them, "respecting/upholding the themes" is most important, and since to them the themes of Requiem are those of "tragedy" or "letting go", I-Theory would inevitably undermine that. The second, smaller point by them would be one of "anti-climax" if Hugo returns, but they mostly mention it in passing, with the ThEmEs having to be preserved at any cost.
However, this discrepancy becomes apparent right when many realise that really, any other alternative for a third game just doesn't cut it as well as Hugo in a third game would, "anti-climax" or themes be damned.
Modern day game? No. Aelia-Basilius? Nope, maybe a DLC. Multiple Carriers? Nope. Amicia-solo? No thanks. None of those plots feel right, even if I'm sure some will disagree.
The situation is really one where the writers would likely be forced to choose: either a good plot that preserves the essence of A Plague Tale, OR, a plot that upholds the "tragedy, dark realism" of Requiem. Both simultaneously just can't be accomplished, I think.
Themes, or quality plot. Choose, devs. I guess that's the price of enforcing the darker, tragic themes in Requiem in spite of Innocence's more relaxed ones. As some have said back then, it appears they've written themselves into a corner with this.
I absolutely agree that none of the ideas would make a good sequel on their own. But I think you can still create a game that has both a good plot and preserves the theme. My idea would be some kind of compromise with a 2-strand story. For example, as mentioned at the end of Requiem, we follow Amicia as she uncovers clues, and at the same time follow the new carrier and protector in a modern timeline, like a scavenger hunt. Of course, this would be a lot of work for the writers and would require great care to get right. But I think it would be absolutely possible.
Amicia is the new Macula vessel ❤
That is... Kinda unrealistic given what we know, plus I don't honestly see the worth of going that route. Basically the one and only "advantage" such a direction would have over the classic Illusion Theory idea is it appearing less anti-climactic, at least at first glance.
But anyhow, considering the massive holes in the lore, I guess it's somewhat possible for writers to pull it off and justify it sensibly enough, especially since Amicia is Hugo's closest blood relative, apart from being a Protector as well.
Requiem sold 1 million copies. Which is enough for me to think a third game is coming ha
One thing I thought was strange is that if it was not an illusion, how did Amicia and Lucas escape after the black screen. Since Hugo was keeping rats from them, after he was killed, rats should have eaten them.
But I think Asobo just left gate open, so that they can decide later what to do. I would say that Hugos death is by far saddest death in any video game (and probably even all of visual media) and that is pretty high artistic value. Then there is a small problem of Hugos voice actor reaching first threshold of puberty and if Asobo wanted to bring Hugo back, they would recast him (and it would not sit right with some fans).
But then there is money: Sucess of plague tale might "force" them to make 3rd game and I can not see it working without Hugo. And even if devalues Requiems impact, if Plague Tale story writer plays his cards right he just might create happiest moment in gaming history.
Honestly I wouldn't go that far as far as Hugo's voice actor reaching puberty. The First Spike of the main Plague Outbreak lasted for a good third to half a decade after Hugo's supposed death in the game, which would bring Hugo to either early teens or preteens. Which would make an early puberty but hardly an unprecedented one, and for a game set near the historical end of the Black Death around 1353 or 1354 the year gap and real life puberty would help handily.
@@vandeheyeric I think teen Hugo would not work for Plague Tale series. Also considering its a game about boy who can control rats, and hugely character driven story, not sticking to real Black Death timeline would be logical.
@@ulariv1701 both your and his concerns are a bit exaggerated. The game can follow the real life timeline while retaining Hugo's youth, because by 1353 (at the latest) Hugo would've been 8 or 9, which is pre even pre-teen.
@@YTuseraL2694 Yes that would be fine, but voice actor is 12 i think, and by the time 3rd game is far enough to start recording lines, hes voice is probably dropped too much. But I think it would not be really a problem to recast Hugos VA, however some fans might feel different.
Interesting theory, but it's probably just a foolish hope ...
I've finished the game a week ago, and it was so emotionaly intense... I'm still "recovering". I really hope you're right, that the next game will be Amicia trying to help the next macula carrier, and finding hugo is still alive in one way or another... Because it's horrible if Hugo path ends like this ....
But, to be honest, all those evidence and clues gathered are worthless, imo ... :
1 : natural law stops in macula : i believe it's more a way to explain what amicia sees down there ... the statue, the combat against those giant rats-humanoid-shape ... and even hugo voice, hugo's presence, the view of people we've met during the game dying... Tbh, I don't even think all those things are real, except the ending when we're joined by lucas.... I think hugo voice, hugo appeareance, is all inside Amicia's head... And what she realized that what she feared the most is true ... Hugo reached the last threshold, and he's killing everyone, no way to go back, and he have to be stoped... She'll have to stop him, she'll have to kill him ... Then she come to its senses, and found lucas, to act ...
2 : we don't see hugo dies , and innoncence we see him dying : In innoncence, we see him getting coverd by rats when we failed.... It's like a game over, please retry... not really intense, not where the story goes... But here, in Requiem, it's part of the scenario.... He have to die ... That's a much more impact than a " you die, please retry" ... And getting covered by rats it's different from seeing a little boy getting his skull splat by a rock ... Thats why the black screen
3 : the tone of Hugo voice : you're right, it's the same kind of tone when macula has taking over him after seeing his mother die, and when he's holding amicia hand in the nebula.. But I see this more like an "appeased" Hugo in both ways... And like I said, i don't think what's happening in the nebula is real, i believe it's more in Alicia mind ... I think Hugo's mind left as soon as he reached the last threshold, when we're fighting on the beach the count and we see the gigantic explosion... I think there's no more hugo at this point, saddly
4: hugo wardrobe : as i think what's in the nebulas is all in amicia's mind, and not real, that's normal hugo is shown with is usual habit ... Not those given by this mad count and his wife ..... And when things get real, when Amicia see him bounded to the tree, he's just wearing a shirt, he just remove, or get his clothes torn
5 : photo mode: the option is just to hide character by hiding their models... But the hugo bounded on a tree is probably another model ... Not hugo, not a tree, but a hugo-tree .... It's more a technical limitation
But my heart really hope you're right, and that we found a third game were we found hugo andfinally cured him ... "A Plage Tale : Recovery" why not ? :')
Honestly, I don't find any of those counters of yours to be solid enough rebuttals, especially those concerning the question of what happens in the Nebula and what "all natural laws stop here" means, in a greater context. Once again, that most of it plays out in Amicia's head is not a counter in and of itself. What's more, some other versions of this theory go with that exact possibility in mind; that it was indeed in Amicia's head, her being influenced by an empowered Macula within the confines of the Nebula cloud.
The thing about us seeing Hugo die in Innocence is presented here merely to show that seeing him die in general, in any context (ending of Requiem included), is not something completely without precedent, so the argument that it would supposedly be "too traumatic" for us to endure is a bit of an over-exaggeration, notwithstanding all the emotional stakes and whatnot.
Hugo is alive
The only thing I see that complicates the Illusion Theory is that we were given a hint that the next installment may be centered in the future. We were no longer be roaming these fascinating medieval universes. Perhaps the illusion would be a trip back in time to reconnect with the curse of the Macula ...since we were be back into modern times. I don't know, whichever they decide to do, I hope they make it official! I keep revisiting these games. I love them so much! I am ready for A Plague Tale III‼
The hint you're talking about is that scene in the post-credits, with the baby-arm. For now, the purpose of that scene isn't to suggest a sequel in another century, but to say, symbolically, "Macula is never-ending cycle" (which I have a low opinion of).
Many are against such proposition (for a modern day game), and even certain high ranking members of the team have expressed doubt. Choteau, game director said as much; if third game ever comes along, it would/should center around Amicia (and perhaps Hugo as well, hence the Illusion Theory).
@@YTuseraL2694 Gotcha' ...thanks!
Also going back to wearing a cloak of blue, wasn't Amicia also wearing a blue scarf in the beginning as well?
She was, but it's not important what color the clothing element is, but *what* it is. And blue cloak is just that here, an element that elegantly ties in with the proverb mention in the video.
👍👍
26:40 correction: the plague left Poland almost untouched
If you mean Hugo alive then yes
Makes a ton of sences
What if vodaun was part of the macula because did anyone else find it strange he lived in a city already ravaged by rats and he was already hostile towards the group? But who knows cus a ceiling beam kills him so it's kind of a head scratcher
I find it hard to believe that the Macula is capable of creating a physical manifestation of a human being. Aside from that, the crew mentions him several times before we meet him, as do the soldiers searching for him. For all we know, he lived in the Red City for years before the plague reached them
As for his attitude, he's a member of The Order, and only knows what they know, but passes it all off as fact without even attempting to see things from another perspective. His views were challenged, and he took great offense to that
@@krazydragonyt5811 well, good point. a bunch of what ifs came to mind and I thought maybe if the macula could create manifestations of Hugo and giant landscapes of birds statues and other things why not something like that but I see that could a been a little off
I don't konw
This is interesting but I don’t believe it at all. Killing a character just off screen is frequently used as sign of respect like when Stannis or Olenna aren’t seen bloody or sagging. The Macula doesn’t have to be cautious if it’s already won. Why “retreat” when it could just send rats to devour Amicia. Also, the “it was all a dream” ending trope is extremely unpopular cliche. Maybe they’d use it but it would cheapen the game considerably.
I must disagree with this take.
Firstly, regarding your take on off-screen killings, no one reasonable suggests that the only alternative to what we've got is us literally getting to see the instance of him getting hit by a stone/bolt and dying. One small, short cut-scene of Amicia and Lucas grieving with his lifeless body in her arms in the aftermath would've been more than enough. Such a scene wouldn't even need to outright show him or his wounds up-close. Countless ways to go about it, really.
If written well enough, Hugo's return or rather, revelation could add new, previously unpredicted value to the saga as a whole. It doesn't necessarily cheapen, let alone destroy what came before it: it recontextualizes it and additionally opens up the Macula as a vicious, insidious antagonistic force/entity even more, and in a way that would kind of feel natural to it.
@@YTuseraL2694 But in what way would it be recontextualized that would be satisfying? The world actually isn’t saved so the third story just has a god Hugo in the nebulous? It’s very rare that a story has a person magically return that keeps the strength. Hugo isn’t and shouldn’t be Gandalf. Let him have peace, finally.
What I meant by cheapen is both stories are completely focused on saving Hugo from the first minutes on. Even Amicia is secondary. We do this despite literally destroying cities from his very presence. “I think you know” is a pretty powerful statement to the player! I had thought it’d be best to kill Hugo actually 2/3 into the second game. After the Phoenix lie, it seemed clear to me. If he’s the source, end him to protect all the world. If he’s not actually dead all Amicia sacrificed is no longer a sacrifice. I’d hate that.
This hypothesis is too far-fetched imo.
First, stating “it was just a dream” and that Hugo is alive just devalues the story moral and the plot itself. Throughout the whole game we’ve repeatedly been seeing things going tragic way. Having Hugo alive, what does it bring us apart from breaking the continuity of the story’s theme?
The argument about clothes and the fact that we have a black screen is a bit silly - it’s clearly an artistic choice.
Hugo’s model in the photo mode is related to a game development process rather than secret hints.
Additionally, if Lucas pulls the trigger, Amicia has a different line about him 1 year later. Should she still be affected by an illusion by that time? I doubt it.
The part that’s taking place in her head starts with her fall and ends when they started approaching Hugo. That’s very clear to me. You can even turn the camera up and back to see the edge of a bridge way above.
The fact that the plague went on in real life doesn’t relate much to the game - it’s a tale after all and it doesn’t have to correspond to the history at all.
Phoenix can be interpreted in a number of ways. But it’s clearly stated that it’s the symbol of the order as well- it’s not related to Hugo exclusively. It also can symbolize the macula or Basilius.
And finally, we have a really complete ending of the story. Hugo reached the 3rd threshold - there’s no way back. He didn’t want to continue destroying more surroundings and decided to sacrifice himself, helping Amicia find a way to him. Hugo was aware of the possibility of that outcome for a large part of the game and he accepted it in the finale.
His body got dissolved in light with other rats/macula attributes, I suppose. Amicia remembers his sacrifice and commemorates him at the memorial.
That’s a complete, solid ending. Compared to this, the illusion hypothesis is nowhere near on the level. There’s no cure after the 3rd threshold. Having Hugo alive and keeping him suffer and destroy more places doesn’t seem to work for the game.
Nothing about this hypothesis/theory is too far-fetched, and you hardly debunked any of the arguments.
Most of the rhetoric against it, both your and by some other people, doesn't really operate on the field of "can it be true?" and empirically analysing observations made of in-game things and story-beats, but on the "should it be true?" which is undeniably less analytical and more concerned with subjective, poetic side of the matter. It's about sugary musing in regards to the "meaning" and all that, nothing else.
You discuss themes or messages, and having them serve as final deciders of the future is really tempting thing to do at first but the whole point is to make a good buck, and attempting another sequel is just that (from the point of view of the developers).
Even if you personally feel the ending is "solid" or whatever, having a third game that directly attempts to draw the endearment of viewers to some new, never-before-seen characters that are inserted to directly replace/relegate original characters (Hugo and/or Amicia) that are inevitably symbols of this franchise would be, in my humble opinion, infinitely worse than them going with something that goes along the lines of what this video proposes and explains. Modern day game ? No way.
A third game, if it ever comes out, should be the last for a tight trilogy and concern the one and only original cast and their struggle against the Macula, and that needs Hugo in most proposed cases and scenarios.
And this argument that having Hugo suffer more would be wrong is just disingenuous from a certain point of view. Requiem and to a lesser extent Innocence were suffering fest through and through, with sprinkles of moments of respite.
Amplifying the tension and Macula's insidiousness and power at the expense of main characters' well-being must be executed well, but harbors a lot of potential regardless.
In fact, many agree that Requiem alone breaks off of Innocence and its themes; for many already these two games have a problem of continuity, and that's a legitimate view to have in all honesty. If Requiem made new atmosphere and even "disrespected" in a way Innocence's more cautious approach to themes, then a third game should have absolutely no obligation to respect or adhere to the letter to what Requiem established, no matter the plot.
@@YTuseraL2694it’s a well written comment, however, you also haven’t countered some of my points.
Do you agree that the arguments about Hugo’s clothes and black screen are artistic choices?
What about the photo mode? To me it’s not even a legit argument since it’s a technical issue related to game development process.
What about Anoxia’s quote about Lucas in the end if it was him to pull the trigger? How’s Amicia being blind a whole year after the event took place? That’s not logical.
We were shown a sun rising up after Hugo got shot - it’s a fact. If the sun rose - this means the macula was no more at that time and for the year ahead.
Sorry for my comment being a bit chaotic. I don’t speak English much.
@@zest01Firstly, I didn't see the message nor notification, so sorry for not answering.
Secondly, don't be angry, but by judging your initial comment(s), mostly by their lengths, I came to assume you're one of those closed-off, arrogant assholes who have decided for themselves whether to support or oppose this theory even before entering these discussions just so you could spite it, with zero traces of humility.
Thankfully, judging by your response to me, it appears I'm very much wrong about yourself, so kudos to you 👍.
Now regarding the comment, when you say that I didn't counter some of your points, that's because I didn't intend to even attempt that; my reply operated on the aforementioned assumption that you came to defame the contents of this video merely because it would "ruin the message of the game" or some other pretentious bullcrap. I concentrated on the thematic and writing problems and justifying that the Illusion Theory, or really any other scenario in which Hugo turns out not to be dead or unsalvageable, would not NECESSARILY result in badly written second game, even if it would likely feel somewhat anti-climactic to many people, that's all. It would depend on the context and writing quality above all else.
As for you asking me about Hugo's clothes and black screen - I neither agree nor disagree. I am more than perfectly aware that these are/can be artistic choices that have zero influence on the plot (still, it'd be flawed). Our point is that these CAN be legitimate arguments in support of the theory, even if they aren't intended as such. No one concerned with this theory actively promotes its "evidence" as absolute truths that are SURE to point towards the writers secretly wanting to implement such scenario. Only that it realistically can be done.
Same goes for pretty much all other points you mention. Sun rises at the end: sure, but given Macula's eldritch/mysterious nature in Requiem and how it changes from Innocence, it's open question what it can do: maybe even preserve Hugo, or manipulate anyone inside the Nebula. Again, point is that IT IS POSSIBLE, not that it's truth we are seeking to uncover/predict.
Who's Anoxia? Of sorry, I didn't realize that it was a typo for Amicia. Whatever she thinks of Lucas, it's clear that likely one of the scenarios can be canonical, while other is just a stand-in in case player doesn't finish the game. So it can be considered overall immaterial, even if it maybe is not.
And for photomode, once again, it's a technicality that neatly happens to present us with a genuinely interesting coincidence, that, again, happens to potentially support some of this theory's proposals. No one is obligated to take it dead seriously, but it's undeniable just how neatly it weaves.
No need to apologize for English, I'm also not a native speaker, so I can relate.