Awesome video. Thank you Norm! So fascinating to see how you were able to determine the variable once you were able to train your palate. It really supports how difficult it is to design a blind taste test experiment. Everyone always talks about reducing bias in testing by being blind to the variable but nobody thinks about how NOT knowing the variable can also introduce bias. A few years back I heard a talk from a neuroscientist named Steve Robbins who’s done some very interesting work here. His research is more geared towards social interactions but I think it’s applicable here as well. Essentially in the absence of information, your brain will literally make stuff up to fill in the gaps. This “inherent bias” is a huge problem for blind taste tests where people don’t know what the variable is. This was fully on display in this video. You said it in the video, “there’s no difference in aroma”. Your inherent bias was clearly that there would be a difference in aroma. This made it impossible for you to correctly identify the odd sample out. But once you tasted the beers, knowing which was which, you were able to determine that it was actually a bitterness difference and were able to make a true unbiased comparison for the remaining trials. Personally I think this goes a long way towards explaining why so many exbeeriments come back insignificant and more brulosophy tests should be structured this way!
I did the same thing as you Martin after going to all grain. I bought a bunch of ingredients in bulk, some not knowing how much I should have gotten. I'm in the process of going through my old hops. The last two batches had a strong bitterness in the finish much like you described. One had Summit hops in it from 2015. It tasted alright. Nothing spectacular, but good enough to not throw away. You should do an episode with old grain too. Maybe compare a batch with all old ingredients vs new. Great episode Martin, the best yet for me.
I recently made a beer from all the random old stuff i had lying around. I was going through seeing what i had and found grain and hops from 2 year's ago. Beer turned out fine.
I regularly use UK and European hops stored in jars or resealed vacuum sealed packs that are not stored in the frezer. Some of these have harvest dates in 2014 and 2015. I've never noticed any problems but then again I haven't tried new and old side by side.
I've been working through some hops I bought 6-7 years ago. They're in foil pouches and have lived this whole time in my freezer. I haven't done a side-by-side with fresh hops, but I can honestly say that the resulting ales are not at all bad. In fact, they're quite tasty. So, while I don't know if there's been a change from the original flavor, I haven't been disappointed in the resulting brews.
Great video! I have been wondering that. As a Brewmaster at a previous place, I walked into it, under a hop contract where I had to buy out 28 (5kg) bags of *shutters internally... magnum hops. Only good for bittering... I went through those bags for 5 years, and when I left, there was still 8 bags left... to my surprise, as a bittering hop, they were still okay.
Oh man! Great experiment! I see a couple issues. A 15min addition is definitely going to extract a noticeable bitterness. Perhaps should've chosen to use only at flame out. Also I'd argue using different colored cups changes people's perceptions as it does with corporate logos, etc. I'd suggest using one color and marking the bottom of the cups and covering with tape, make everything identical. Lastly at the end by knowing which beer was which after the first, I believe the test was void. Because you knew exactly which notes were different. I would love to see how you scored, not knowing the result of the first taste. Very good to know because I was concerned about some 1-2 year old hops I was thinking of tossing. Cheers!🍻
Here's something to ponder- you've got two different lots of cascade from different years. I see no reason why hops aren't like wine vintages i.e. particular years are better than others. With AA% that drastically different I'd bet my last dollar that the overall oil fractions (determined by either GC or HPLC) are significantly different. Meaning the overall flavor/aroma of the two cascade hops themselves is significantly different. Would have been neat to follow the sensory same-different triangle tests up with a preference testing before revealing the triangle results. Use something like a 9-point hedonic scale for preference test. I've selected hops professionally many times before and it's a strange process in and of itself. Some brewers select cascade for example as what they think are "the most true to variety cascade" lot whereas some other brewers literally just pick their favorite lot of cascade regardless how "true to style" it is. Two different philosophies but point being- hops even within the same variety such as cascade can have drastically different flavor and aroma lot to lot. Not trying to poke holes in this experiment. These are amazing! Keep them coming
How interesting. We did capture some level of preference (not the 9 point hedonic scale you mention) but just to ask which beer was the favorite. We tend to discard those results when the variable comes back insignificant as it did here. But I preferred the 2022 hop!
I bought some Cryo Pop for a new brew this weekend... Robbie Harrigan - Yakima Chief Business Development (Homebrew) - "I am fully aware that the homebrew market is very sensitive to crop year and believes that newest crop year is best, however this is something Yakima Chief is keen to remove from the conversation. As I am sure you know, providing hops are packaged, shipped, and stored correctly, hops can last for many, many years. Our exacting standards of packaging, storage and refrigeration mean that a prior year's crop remains in premium condition. Furthermore, as I’m sure you know, hops can have vintages, much like wine grapes and some years can have particularly excellent crops. For example, 2018 Simcoe® is still something that is often discussed by brewers! This is one the main reasons that we don’t even print the crop year on the foil, as we believe this will lead people unfairly prejudging otherwise excellent hops!"
Very interesting topic that I've been contemplating myself. When I got into brewing I bought tons of hops. Years later I still have tons of hops in the freezer. I was starting to wonder if the older hops were throwing my beers off. While you trained yourself to find a difference I wonder if that's not just a lot to lot variability thing and not 100% due to age. Like you mentioned the %AA was 50% higher on the old hops, likely had variation in makeup. No way to ever know but still a great exbeeriment!
I wouldn't use old hops for IPAs where flavor and smells come from the hops but beers that just need a bittering hop and rely on the malt for flavoring then they're prefect.
Incredibly high quality content, well done! Sounds like Martin is figuring out why the blind triangle test is a bunch of (entertaining) gobbledygook. Brülosophy shouldn’t rely on it so heavily, it’s just too hard.
Great video as always. I have a suggestion for an experiment: I buy my ingredients online because there is no homebrew store nearby. I often end up having 4 to 5 pounds of base malt left. Thats not enough for 5 gallons of a 4.5% alc brew but I still want to use it. I don't want to brew a 2.5 gallions batch because that feels like the same amount of work for half the reward. I know I could use a lot of adjuncts that I can by at the grocery. If I wanted to make 5 gallons of a 4.5% alc beer (whatever style) and only use 5 pounds of malt, what grocery store adjuncts should I add for the best result? (rice, oats, honey, dextrose, table sugar, ...)
A solution when in doubt could perhaps also be to use the old hops as bittering hops at the start of the boil. My suspicion would be that all the volatile oils boil off anyways. Then you can use new hops for the late additions and dry hop, without having wasted hop.
Can you do this again but with hops that have been in the freezer in a non-sealed bag for a few years? Or maybe an experiment to test the effects of “hop stability index” degradation of alpha acids?
I recently used my last 2017 bag of hops, Columbus, in a lager and it turned out just fine. Would it have been better with fresher hops? Probably but there was nothing to complain about with that brew.
Most brewing software have a "hop age" adjustment tool. You could have set both beers to be a calculated 30-40IBU and adjusted for AA and age. This would be a better test IMO. I know you've (Brulosophy) done these test a few times in the past. Great work though, I think the same bittering hop threw people off
Love the videos Martin. Here's an idea for another triangle test video: -Brew 2 identical Hazy Pale Ales and ferment in separate Kegland All Rounders -Dry Hop one at the tail end of fermentation with 5-10 points left -Dry hop the other post fermentation...soft crash to 15C and then add the hops -Which one gives the better aroma, flavor and less chances of hop burn I see these 2 practices done both on the large brewery scale and also on the homebrew scale. However, which one is more effective on the homebrew scale and can anyone tell the difference. Cheers!
I think there are some interesting points on Triangle Tests here. I have found that they are hard, even for beers that are different. Like shown here, you can also train yourself to look out for specific differences with repeated tries. I am also curious how much the alpha acids break down over the years. For example, the "Hop Age Tool" in BeerSmith says the aa% of your 5 year old hops are around 0.6%! I often work through a bag of Columbus or Warrior over a few years and don't notice a decline in bitterness.
There's no way they are 0.6% AA just from being from 2017. Maybe it means that they have lost 0.6% AA? That sounds about right. Most American hops have a pretty good HSI. Could always do AA testing on the old hops to confirm though which would be interesting.
I have a suggestion for a video. Id be cool to see how the effectivness of starsan goes dont with time. They say to use in within an hour. But after how much time is it totally useless?
I'd like to see this experiment redone, where you calculated the weight of each hop to achieve the same IBU per batch. The older hops recipe had a higher IBU, and you identified the different "bitter finish" as the differentiator between the two beers.
I noticed that the vacuum seal was broken for the 2017 bag. That introduced oxygen and changed the flavor, notwithstanding the experiment results. I’ve found that as long as hops are vacuum sealed and the seal remains intact, they will hold up a long time.
Just watched the fair well vid for HBC. also watched the vid extract vs all grain comparison. You have too revisit that. Good reason ppl believe extract sucks. Water chem., hop utilisation, full vol. boil and so on... Any way 🇺🇸🍻🇺🇸
I recently brewed a tried and true pale ale recipe with 2016 Centennial hops that were stored unopened in a freezer. The bitterness was very harsh and the aroma was unappealing. I wouldn’t say ‘cheesy’ but not a typical citrus smell. I couldn’t get over the nasty bitterness and dumped the keg. Maybe you can try the reverse of this exbeeriment…bitter with the old hops and use fresh hops for aroma. Curious if you have the same bitterness issue that I had.
I just started back brewing after 6 years. ALL the ingredients in my first batch were that old. The yeast had been kept in the fridge. The batch is now ready to bottle and I'll know in about a month.
I don't recall if it was mentioned, but how did they smell out of the bags? If worse comes to worse, and aroma and flavor can't be 'salvaged' from old hops, bittering seems a fine option instead of tossing. I regret tossing some 'old' hops last year.
Hey Martin! I'm a long timer with your videos. I have sort of an off question for you. in a recent show, I saw that you used to brew on a Breweasy. Now I see your are faithful to a Clawhammer. I'm looking to upgrade and would like your thoughts on why you changed. I like the solid systems that Blichmann products, but most of the people I listen to use a Clawhammer and I wonder what the advantage is? I would appreciate your thoughts!
I have to wonder if the significant AA% difference could have been instrumental in the test, Martin indicated that he percieved more bitterness in the old hop which could have simply been additional bittering from the aroma addition. It is a shame the hops were not more identical. Still it seems like the answer to the question can I use old but well stored hops in my brews is Yes.
2 year old unrefrigerated ziploc hops. Can you try this test against vacuum packed new hops? Im brewing an ipa today with galaxy hops stored poorly in the above manner, may make a good beer but would have to wait for an order of new galaxy hops to brew this ipa again
An interesting experiment, but to me the real question is can you make a good tasting beer with hops you’ve frozen for a few years and the answer is yes. I have to buy hops in bulk as I work and brew overseas with no home brew supply shops available. The best I can do to have hops in hand is bring 8 or 16 oz bags and vacuum pack them after every use.
I think one thing these experiments show is that human perception is fairly shallow unless we know what we're looking for, but once we've identified something we remember it.
i recently used my own garden harvested hops in a pale ale brew. it was a partial mash and because i only have a 5 gallon kettle i had about 3 gallons in my boil. with dry whole hops you add quite a bit and they seemed to absorb more than i'd like of my wort. i used a large spoon and my hands to squeeze out extra wort through a strainer. then cooled the wort and put into fermentor. is there a better way? one thought is to boil the dry whole hops for same amount of time in clear water and add to the wort after straining and not absorb any wort. another idea is to rinse the hops off in a strainer using boiled water at the end of the boil. any tips to help me with this situation? thanks!
Triangle tests require independence between samples being taken in order to be helpful. You kind of messed this up by knowing which you were successful with. Your test soon becomes "can I train myself to recognise a difference". We know this is true for even miniscule differences. I know this was to make an entertaining TH-cam clip, but I would advise maybe watching your tasting back and reacting to it instead. Either way, please do more of these and less of the other nonsense that has been up recently. I appreciate 2 beers a week is a huge undertaking in terms of alcohol, so I would suggest serving experiments (PSI/glassware/temperature).
You could simply be tasting the difference between the hops that were grown those years vs their age so hard to say if there is any significance to the test. I would like to see a test between yeast pitch rates, I regularly brew 10 gallon batches of beer using only a single packet of dry yeast. I know this goes against pitching level guidelines but I have never had an issue with fermentation or the finished product. I also brew 3 batches of beer in succession using the same yeast cake so 30 gallons from a single packet in all.
Yup. Neither I nor a majority of participants could pick the odd beer out in a blind triangle test. But there was enough of a difference there to be perceptible once I knew what to look for.
@@TheBrulosophyShow Yep - so interesting. I love this stuff. I've often wondered if National/ Master Judges would have significant findings and/or be more reliable.
You've just conducted two experiments, not one :) The number of times a judge is exposed to the 3 samples in a triangle test is important to consider. "Does the number of times you taste a set of beers make it easier for you to distinguish them" could have been the title instead :P I would think it's important to expose the tasters to the test more than once before it's reliable. Nice experiment though!
I think you have been spoiled in your own test. All 5 attempts should have been blind and you get the results at the end. In the video it looks like you took another smell test (and maybe taste too?) after you got the result of your first attempt. After that you have been able to distinguish precisely which beer is which, because you were able to focus on the differences you made out.
Maybe the difference in IBUs is also higher than expected. Based on your recipe brewerfriend gives me a difference of 4,5 IBU - which seems not much but it's difference of over 10% in bittering units.
Yeah my test was only semi-blind for test #1 (I knew the variable because I brewed it)which I failed. The other tests I wanted to see if I could train myself to pick out any difference at all which I could. The fully blinded test was given to 20 participants and that one came back non-significant. So I think we covered a few bases here.
Totally agree and great video! I'm quite new to the topic and was spoiled by other homebrewers, with statements like "hops shouldn't be older than 2 years" etc.
I like the title, but there's no way to adequately test this unless you can do accelerated aging on the same hop lot. Hops aren't a commodity. YCH sources from a bunch of different farms. Ask the growers in Toppenish vs Cowiche area how different their cascades are *within the same year*, let alone after 6 years of drift. Hops, unfortunately, have a similar kind of vintage effect. It's why Mosaic 2022 tastes significantly different than it did in 2014. So what you're testing is can people differentiate vintages (that were properly stored so as to remove the variable you claim to be testing), or does the crop functionally behave like a commodity.
Well sure you picked it out every time after you were told which is which. Not a valid test. Also, while I think this is all very interesting, respondents had at worst a 1 in 3 chance of simply guessing correctly. To me the more interesting...and important...question is can you make excellent beer with hops that have been kept in a freezer for 5 years. It seems to me the answer to that question is yes.
Once you identify which one has the old hop, the rest of the testing is meaningless. You had to do the 5 tests without knowing anything. Waste of time.
Very weird thing. I got 3 Yakima hops bags from my friend: 2016 and 2017 (idaho7/mosaic/dr rudi) and did a lot of tests with them (since I had about 250gr of each) and they were awful. Color/smell/extraction...
Martin shouldn’t have been told he was wrong after the first of 5 taste tests. Take all five blind and then see what happens.
tell him he's wrong but not which one is right
Bingo. Once the variable was explained, all other tests were irrelevant.
So fun to see these experiments come to life on screen, keep it up!
Awesome video. Thank you Norm! So fascinating to see how you were able to determine the variable once you were able to train your palate. It really supports how difficult it is to design a blind taste test experiment. Everyone always talks about reducing bias in testing by being blind to the variable but nobody thinks about how NOT knowing the variable can also introduce bias. A few years back I heard a talk from a neuroscientist named Steve Robbins who’s done some very interesting work here. His research is more geared towards social interactions but I think it’s applicable here as well. Essentially in the absence of information, your brain will literally make stuff up to fill in the gaps. This “inherent bias” is a huge problem for blind taste tests where people don’t know what the variable is. This was fully on display in this video. You said it in the video, “there’s no difference in aroma”. Your inherent bias was clearly that there would be a difference in aroma. This made it impossible for you to correctly identify the odd sample out. But once you tasted the beers, knowing which was which, you were able to determine that it was actually a bitterness difference and were able to make a true unbiased comparison for the remaining trials. Personally I think this goes a long way towards explaining why so many exbeeriments come back insignificant and more brulosophy tests should be structured this way!
I was in a NC brewery job fair the other day! I got the chance to talk to most of the blind taste testers very cool people
Great work!
For now it is more like "different year hops are different". We need more tests)
The result on this one was very interesting! Fascinating how once you lock in on the subtle difference you can reliably identify it each time.
I did the same thing as you Martin after going to all grain. I bought a bunch of ingredients in bulk, some not knowing how much I should have gotten. I'm in the process of going through my old hops. The last two batches had a strong bitterness in the finish much like you described. One had Summit hops in it from 2015. It tasted alright. Nothing spectacular, but good enough to not throw away.
You should do an episode with old grain too. Maybe compare a batch with all old ingredients vs new. Great episode Martin, the best yet for me.
I recently made a beer from all the random old stuff i had lying around. I was going through seeing what i had and found grain and hops from 2 year's ago. Beer turned out fine.
Nice job, Martin! Keep up the good work.
I regularly use UK and European hops stored in jars or resealed vacuum sealed packs that are not stored in the frezer. Some of these have harvest dates in 2014 and 2015. I've never noticed any problems but then again I haven't tried new and old side by side.
I've been working through some hops I bought 6-7 years ago. They're in foil pouches and have lived this whole time in my freezer. I haven't done a side-by-side with fresh hops, but I can honestly say that the resulting ales are not at all bad. In fact, they're quite tasty. So, while I don't know if there's been a change from the original flavor, I haven't been disappointed in the resulting brews.
Great test. This brewery setup looks awsome.
Great video!
I have been wondering that. As a Brewmaster at a previous place, I walked into it, under a hop contract where I had to buy out 28 (5kg) bags of *shutters internally... magnum hops.
Only good for bittering...
I went through those bags for 5 years, and when I left, there was still 8 bags left... to my surprise, as a bittering hop, they were still okay.
Oh man! Great experiment!
I see a couple issues. A 15min addition is definitely going to extract a noticeable bitterness. Perhaps should've chosen to use only at flame out. Also I'd argue using different colored cups changes people's perceptions as it does with corporate logos, etc. I'd suggest using one color and marking the bottom of the cups and covering with tape, make everything identical.
Lastly at the end by knowing which beer was which after the first, I believe the test was void. Because you knew exactly which notes were different. I would love to see how you scored, not knowing the result of the first taste.
Very good to know because I was concerned about some 1-2 year old hops I was thinking of tossing.
Cheers!🍻
This video was great timing. I have some hops from that same year and just brewed with them last weekend. Waiting to see how it turns out.
Here's something to ponder- you've got two different lots of cascade from different years.
I see no reason why hops aren't like wine vintages i.e. particular years are better than others. With AA% that drastically different I'd bet my last dollar that the overall oil fractions (determined by either GC or HPLC) are significantly different. Meaning the overall flavor/aroma of the two cascade hops themselves is significantly different. Would have been neat to follow the sensory same-different triangle tests up with a preference testing before revealing the triangle results. Use something like a 9-point hedonic scale for preference test.
I've selected hops professionally many times before and it's a strange process in and of itself. Some brewers select cascade for example as what they think are "the most true to variety cascade" lot whereas some other brewers literally just pick their favorite lot of cascade regardless how "true to style" it is. Two different philosophies but point being- hops even within the same variety such as cascade can have drastically different flavor and aroma lot to lot.
Not trying to poke holes in this experiment. These are amazing! Keep them coming
How interesting. We did capture some level of preference (not the 9 point hedonic scale you mention) but just to ask which beer was the favorite. We tend to discard those results when the variable comes back insignificant as it did here. But I preferred the 2022 hop!
I bought some Cryo Pop for a new brew this weekend...
Robbie Harrigan - Yakima Chief Business Development (Homebrew) - "I am fully aware that the homebrew market is very sensitive to crop year and believes that newest crop year is best, however this is something Yakima Chief is keen to remove from the conversation. As I am sure you know, providing hops are packaged, shipped, and stored correctly, hops can last for many, many years. Our exacting standards of packaging, storage and refrigeration mean that a prior year's crop remains in premium condition. Furthermore, as I’m sure you know, hops can have vintages, much like wine grapes and some years can have particularly excellent crops. For example, 2018 Simcoe® is still something that is often discussed by brewers! This is one the main reasons that we don’t even print the crop year on the foil, as we believe this will lead people unfairly prejudging otherwise excellent hops!"
Very interesting topic that I've been contemplating myself. When I got into brewing I bought tons of hops. Years later I still have tons of hops in the freezer. I was starting to wonder if the older hops were throwing my beers off.
While you trained yourself to find a difference I wonder if that's not just a lot to lot variability thing and not 100% due to age. Like you mentioned the %AA was 50% higher on the old hops, likely had variation in makeup. No way to ever know but still a great exbeeriment!
Super interesting how this turned out
I wouldn't use old hops for IPAs where flavor and smells come from the hops but beers that just need a bittering hop and rely on the malt for flavoring then they're prefect.
Incredibly high quality content, well done!
Sounds like Martin is figuring out why the blind triangle test is a bunch of (entertaining) gobbledygook. Brülosophy shouldn’t rely on it so heavily, it’s just too hard.
Love this - I'd be interested to see how well you'd have done if the first sample wasn't identified 🤔
Personally, I think you should have balanced the IBU’s for a fair comparison. Great video though. Really glad to see you back.
Great video as always. I have a suggestion for an experiment:
I buy my ingredients online because there is no homebrew store nearby. I often end up having 4 to 5 pounds of base malt left. Thats not enough for 5 gallons of a 4.5% alc brew but I still want to use it. I don't want to brew a 2.5 gallions batch because that feels like the same amount of work for half the reward.
I know I could use a lot of adjuncts that I can by at the grocery.
If I wanted to make 5 gallons of a 4.5% alc beer (whatever style) and only use 5 pounds of malt, what grocery store adjuncts should I add for the best result? (rice, oats, honey, dextrose, table sugar, ...)
A solution when in doubt could perhaps also be to use the old hops as bittering hops at the start of the boil. My suspicion would be that all the volatile oils boil off anyways. Then you can use new hops for the late additions and dry hop, without having wasted hop.
Awesome video! Please, keep them coming! Cheers!
Can you do this again but with hops that have been in the freezer in a non-sealed bag for a few years? Or maybe an experiment to test the effects of “hop stability index” degradation of alpha acids?
I recently used my last 2017 bag of hops, Columbus, in a lager and it turned out just fine. Would it have been better with fresher hops? Probably but there was nothing to complain about with that brew.
I'm very pleasantly surprised with your experiment setup, very cool! Sub definitely earned and looking forward to more videos.
It would be nice to have the same test with a hop with higher oil content...cascade it a little mute anyways. Loved the video, though!
Most brewing software have a "hop age" adjustment tool. You could have set both beers to be a calculated 30-40IBU and adjusted for AA and age. This would be a better test IMO. I know you've (Brulosophy) done these test a few times in the past. Great work though, I think the same bittering hop threw people off
Yep this is a good point. I did I put the age of the hops into Brewfather but didn’t apply any hop age adjustment.
Love the videos Martin. Here's an idea for another triangle test video:
-Brew 2 identical Hazy Pale Ales and ferment in separate Kegland All Rounders
-Dry Hop one at the tail end of fermentation with 5-10 points left
-Dry hop the other post fermentation...soft crash to 15C and then add the hops
-Which one gives the better aroma, flavor and less chances of hop burn
I see these 2 practices done both on the large brewery scale and also on the homebrew scale. However, which one is more effective on the homebrew scale and can anyone tell the difference. Cheers!
I think there are some interesting points on Triangle Tests here. I have found that they are hard, even for beers that are different. Like shown here, you can also train yourself to look out for specific differences with repeated tries.
I am also curious how much the alpha acids break down over the years. For example, the "Hop Age Tool" in BeerSmith says the aa% of your 5 year old hops are around 0.6%! I often work through a bag of Columbus or Warrior over a few years and don't notice a decline in bitterness.
There's no way they are 0.6% AA just from being from 2017. Maybe it means that they have lost 0.6% AA? That sounds about right.
Most American hops have a pretty good HSI. Could always do AA testing on the old hops to confirm though which would be interesting.
I have a suggestion for a video. Id be cool to see how the effectivness of starsan goes dont with time. They say to use in within an hour. But after how much time is it totally useless?
I'd like to see this experiment redone, where you calculated the weight of each hop to achieve the same IBU per batch. The older hops recipe had a higher IBU, and you identified the different "bitter finish" as the differentiator between the two beers.
I agree. They should have been compared on the same AA load, rather than the same weight of hops (with different AA levels). Pity.
Does the Alpha acid difference contribute to the marked difference in bitterness as well?
I noticed that the vacuum seal was broken for the 2017 bag. That introduced oxygen and changed the flavor, notwithstanding the experiment results. I’ve found that as long as hops are vacuum sealed and the seal remains intact, they will hold up a long time.
Just watched the fair well vid for HBC. also watched the vid extract vs all grain comparison. You have too revisit that. Good reason ppl believe extract sucks. Water chem., hop utilisation, full vol. boil and so on... Any way 🇺🇸🍻🇺🇸
I recently brewed a tried and true pale ale recipe with 2016 Centennial hops that were stored unopened in a freezer. The bitterness was very harsh and the aroma was unappealing. I wouldn’t say ‘cheesy’ but not a typical citrus smell. I couldn’t get over the nasty bitterness and dumped the keg.
Maybe you can try the reverse of this exbeeriment…bitter with the old hops and use fresh hops for aroma. Curious if you have the same bitterness issue that I had.
Did you buy Brulosophy?
I just started back brewing after 6 years. ALL the ingredients in my first batch were that old. The yeast had been kept in the fridge. The batch is now ready to bottle and I'll know in about a month.
I think if you compensated the 2022 batch with slightly more Warrior to make them closer in IBU you might not have been able to tell them apart.
I don't recall if it was mentioned, but how did they smell out of the bags? If worse comes to worse, and aroma and flavor can't be 'salvaged' from old hops, bittering seems a fine option instead of tossing. I regret tossing some 'old' hops last year.
Hey Martin! I'm a long timer with your videos. I have sort of an off question for you. in a recent show, I saw that you used to brew on a Breweasy. Now I see your are faithful to a Clawhammer. I'm looking to upgrade and would like your thoughts on why you changed. I like the solid systems that Blichmann products, but most of the people I listen to use a Clawhammer and I wonder what the advantage is? I would appreciate your thoughts!
Dang your good Martin !!!
Interesting! I’ve got tons of old hops that need to be used up! Kitchen sink IPA anyone? Cheers 🍻
You can always use the older hops to bitter, and use newer hops to flavor
I have to wonder if the significant AA% difference could have been instrumental in the test, Martin indicated that he percieved more bitterness in the old hop which could have simply been additional bittering from the aroma addition. It is a shame the hops were not more identical. Still it seems like the answer to the question can I use old but well stored hops in my brews is Yes.
Oh thank goodness ... Norm to the rescue. Could 2017 have been a bad growing year in Yakima as compared to 2022? There are a lot of variables here.
😆😆😆
2 year old unrefrigerated ziploc hops. Can you try this test against vacuum packed new hops? Im brewing an ipa today with galaxy hops stored poorly in the above manner, may make a good beer but would have to wait for an order of new galaxy hops to brew this ipa again
An interesting experiment, but to me the real question is can you make a good tasting beer with hops you’ve frozen for a few years and the answer is yes. I have to buy hops in bulk as I work and brew overseas with no home brew supply shops available. The best I can do to have hops in hand is bring 8 or 16 oz bags and vacuum pack them after every use.
I think one thing these experiments show is that human perception is fairly shallow unless we know what we're looking for, but once we've identified something we remember it.
i recently used my own garden harvested hops in a pale ale brew. it was a partial mash and because i only have a 5 gallon kettle i had about 3 gallons in my boil. with dry whole hops you add quite a bit and they seemed to absorb more than i'd like of my wort. i used a large spoon and my hands to squeeze out extra wort through a strainer. then cooled the wort and put into fermentor. is there a better way? one thought is to boil the dry whole hops for same amount of time in clear water and add to the wort after straining and not absorb any wort. another idea is to rinse the hops off in a strainer using boiled water at the end of the boil. any tips to help me with this situation? thanks!
Triangle tests require independence between samples being taken in order to be helpful. You kind of messed this up by knowing which you were successful with. Your test soon becomes "can I train myself to recognise a difference". We know this is true for even miniscule differences. I know this was to make an entertaining TH-cam clip, but I would advise maybe watching your tasting back and reacting to it instead. Either way, please do more of these and less of the other nonsense that has been up recently. I appreciate 2 beers a week is a huge undertaking in terms of alcohol, so I would suggest serving experiments (PSI/glassware/temperature).
well said sir
Did these have the same AA?
And I should have just watched the video...
@@Justin.J.Daniels hahahaha.
You could simply be tasting the difference between the hops that were grown those years vs their age so hard to say if there is any significance to the test. I would like to see a test between yeast pitch rates, I regularly brew 10 gallon batches of beer using only a single packet of dry yeast. I know this goes against pitching level guidelines but I have never had an issue with fermentation or the finished product. I also brew 3 batches of beer in succession using the same yeast cake so 30 gallons from a single packet in all.
the two bears should have been adjusted for same IBUs.
Différence might though be the vintage over the storage. 😅😅😅
Yup that is where my money is. We need a Time Machine to transport 2017 hops to present day to compare this properly 😃
Those larger bags look like they've lost their vacuum seal.
Seems to me your five tests proved that once your palate is taught which is different, you can then replicate that.
Yup. Neither I nor a majority of participants could pick the odd beer out in a blind triangle test. But there was enough of a difference there to be perceptible once I knew what to look for.
@@TheBrulosophyShow Yep - so interesting. I love this stuff. I've often wondered if National/ Master Judges would have significant findings and/or be more reliable.
Martin shouldn't been allowed to resample the odd beer out
You've just conducted two experiments, not one :) The number of times a judge is exposed to the 3 samples in a triangle test is important to consider. "Does the number of times you taste a set of beers make it easier for you to distinguish them" could have been the title instead :P I would think it's important to expose the tasters to the test more than once before it's reliable. Nice experiment though!
Glad I didn't throw my old hops away.
All the more reasons to make a SMASH beer! SMASH meaning Single Malt All sorts'sa Hops
😆 This definition of SMASH is the way to go…
I think you have been spoiled in your own test. All 5 attempts should have been blind and you get the results at the end. In the video it looks like you took another smell test (and maybe taste too?) after you got the result of your first attempt. After that you have been able to distinguish precisely which beer is which, because you were able to focus on the differences you made out.
Maybe the difference in IBUs is also higher than expected. Based on your recipe brewerfriend gives me a difference of 4,5 IBU - which seems not much but it's difference of over 10% in bittering units.
Yeah my test was only semi-blind for test #1 (I knew the variable because I brewed it)which I failed. The other tests I wanted to see if I could train myself to pick out any difference at all which I could. The fully blinded test was given to 20 participants and that one came back non-significant. So I think we covered a few bases here.
Totally agree and great video! I'm quite new to the topic and was spoiled by other homebrewers, with statements like "hops shouldn't be older than 2 years" etc.
I like the title, but there's no way to adequately test this unless you can do accelerated aging on the same hop lot. Hops aren't a commodity. YCH sources from a bunch of different farms. Ask the growers in Toppenish vs Cowiche area how different their cascades are *within the same year*, let alone after 6 years of drift. Hops, unfortunately, have a similar kind of vintage effect. It's why Mosaic 2022 tastes significantly different than it did in 2014. So what you're testing is can people differentiate vintages (that were properly stored so as to remove the variable you claim to be testing), or does the crop functionally behave like a commodity.
Old hops get bitter this is my experience. More horse.
There would be less differences if both batches were from the same mash and you split it up for the boil.
Cheat much? It is no longer blind once he told you which was which after the first round.
Well sure you picked it out every time after you were told which is which. Not a valid test. Also, while I think this is all very interesting, respondents had at worst a 1 in 3 chance of simply guessing correctly. To me the more interesting...and important...question is can you make excellent beer with hops that have been kept in a freezer for 5 years. It seems to me the answer to that question is yes.
Once you identify which one has the old hop, the rest of the testing is meaningless. You had to do the 5 tests without knowing anything. Waste of time.
Very weird thing. I got 3 Yakima hops bags from my friend: 2016 and 2017 (idaho7/mosaic/dr rudi) and did a lot of tests with them (since I had about 250gr of each) and they were awful. Color/smell/extraction...