This is a very good video. There are a few coaches who say serving is not a throw and they are incorrect. 20 years ago Nick Bolleterri produced a video and he had a server and baseball pitcher side by side. They looked similar but different. Then with the aid of technology he rotated the baseball pitcher so they were throwing upward along the same angle as the server. Then he superimposed the server video and pitcher video and they were nearly identical in their mechanics. Serving is like throwing along an upward path. The upward path makes the shoulder over shoulder motion work. By the way, the action of getting the hitting shoulder up and the non-hitting shoulder down at contact allows the server to have a less step angle of the arm to the shoulder. If you had a flat shoulder angle at contact, the hitting arm would have a very steep angle to get up to contact. A steeper arm to shoulder angle causes shoulder impingement where the arm angle irritates the rotator cuff. Using the shoulder over shoulder action with a less steep angle between the arm and shoulder at contact is a much healthier way to serve too.
Excellent. This is exactly what I've been struggling with - to do the shoulder-over-shoulder move while still keeping the throwing motion with the elbow. I'll work on this today.
Nice video. It’s amazing if you go back and watch Vic Braden teach the serve in the 80’s how much of this he had figured out. It’s a kinetic chain uncoil, not a cartwheel. A Cartwheel would destroy the kinetic chain.
As I see this question the shoulder on shoulder is an inevitable and necessary condition to serve naturally at a high speed with body weight transfer. The greater the weight charge, the rotation carries the right side of the body (on right handed) downwards. The great rotation does it by itself. We don't need to force that movement. The same occurs with the arm going down because of a great flexion, a movement many times misunderstood and instructed only by visual imitation. Good job!
Hi this is great way to serve. I like to get the racket to be starting on edge at point were the elbow is brought out so a good pronation of the waist. The point you make about the tilt is important so you keep the shoulder good. Thanks keep up the good work.
I'm going to work on leading with elbow. There's a serving expert who's featured by a couple of other tennis websites who says the serve is more of a shot put move. However, I think you're right that's it's a throwing motion. With a shot put you don't lead with the elbow. In slow motion videos of the pros serving, you can clearly see that they lead with the elbow.
@@TomAllsopp It's Marc Kovacs with Will Hamilton at Fuzzy Yellow Ball, who recently did a "shot put" serve drill. But I've heard the shot put from a couple of other coaches too.
I think maybe a javelin or football would be a better. Remember also that your chest and core actually pull your elbow up so don't try to move your elbow rather than engaging your back core/chest and pushing up with your legs. If your feet then chest leads the way your elbow naturally follows...then the forearm and wrist.
@@TomAllsopp Marc Kovacs is the author of the 8 stage developmental model of the serve. Ive no doubt its biomechanically on point but not sure the value of 8 stages in teaching the serve. when i watch Sampras Federer Krajicek etc i dont see 8 stages. Im pretty sure he had 3 stages from the moment of throwing the racket to impact which cant take more than 3 milliseconds at most.
Very informative. I recently subscribed to your channel. I find your videos very instructional. Also, by the way, I noticed that you use Diadem products. Within the last one to two years, I have become a big fan of their rackets and strings
Good video. Thanks. In trying to get the cartwheel, I’ve experienced what you’ve referring to as the error - a failure to lead with the elbow. It’s no bueno.
I agree (and teach) that learning to throw is a fundamental requirement for a tennis serve. There are similarities and differences between serving and throwing. Coaches who say that the serve is like a throwing motion focus on the similarities. Coaches who violently disagree that serve is nothing like a throwing motion focus on the differences.
great video! if you can add other one with this and the key to not over rotate for slice, kick and flat serves will be complete, at least for me. Thanks coach!
Thanks Tom. Good stuff! This is a confusing area. It seems the serve involves 3 types of rotations at the same time. Horizontal, "cartwheel," and, according to some, "somersault" at the same time.
I have tried to lead with the elbow,, I get stuck and lose momentum, I can do it in a shadow swing but not with the ball. Would love to see more videos on lead with elbow as my elbow does not go up and forward enough hence bad racket drop.
Not particularly about this video but your approach to the serve in general. For me where I am at there is a grey area between the idea and practice of a throw vs a 'hurl' from racket drop. Meaning a hurl is not a throw. Yet both seem important. So is it getting from the first movement of a throw, to a hurl at racket drop to back to a throw? What do you think?
Ah ha! My racket drop is not being initiated by the forward motion of the elbow. I’ve been “knocking off the birthday hat” - too wooden. Great demonstration and explanation. I’m off to work on this later in the day. Cheers.
After you release the ball, the tossing arm should continue to rise, giving you an upwards shoulder tilt. As long as you get this starting upwards shoulder tilt, the "shoulder over shoulder motion" will automatically happen. You do not have to think about "shoulder over shoulder" motion. Just go up and contact the ball. This is also assuming the toss is accurate.
Good content here, however I'm going to argue about how important it is to get the shoulder aligned with the ball at contact. Coaches tell students to toss into the court and drive with their legs, etc. but it's the shoulder location that is very important because that is the pivot point of the serve. I had a kid yesterday that had a decent serve but his racquet face was open at contact to counter the fact that his shoulder never got under the ball. There's a few things that are important and that shoulder location relative to the contact point is certainly one of them.
@@TomAllsopp I like the narrative around throwing the elbow, I use that too, in just saying that it is coordinated with rotating the shoulder upwards and in the court. You can throw the elbow but if you keep your shoulder joint too far back, your only option is to serve with an open racquet face. 🎾
Interesting video. For another take on "All the greatest servers will end up with their elbow getting above their hand" see: th-cam.com/video/f0gnXSwrK00/w-d-xo.html @5:40 (I don't agree with his "flaw" characterization.)
What shoiuldn't you do in a serve motion to avoid hurting your rotator cuff? any upward motion of the racket arm seems to have the potential to aggravate it, so not sure what can be "technically" to avoid this pain. #Help
This is a very good video. There are a few coaches who say serving is not a throw and they are incorrect. 20 years ago Nick Bolleterri produced a video and he had a server and baseball pitcher side by side. They looked similar but different. Then with the aid of technology he rotated the baseball pitcher so they were throwing upward along the same angle as the server. Then he superimposed the server video and pitcher video and they were nearly identical in their mechanics. Serving is like throwing along an upward path. The upward path makes the shoulder over shoulder motion work. By the way, the action of getting the hitting shoulder up and the non-hitting shoulder down at contact allows the server to have a less step angle of the arm to the shoulder. If you had a flat shoulder angle at contact, the hitting arm would have a very steep angle to get up to contact. A steeper arm to shoulder angle causes shoulder impingement where the arm angle irritates the rotator cuff. Using the shoulder over shoulder action with a less steep angle between the arm and shoulder at contact is a much healthier way to serve too.
We need Nick's video!!!
thank you! one of the most interesting comments I have read about tennis serving technique in a very long time.
Finally. Two movements one hit, serve. Explained. Thanks very very mutch!
the explanations of the role of the elbow and the dynamics of shoulder rotation are very helpful. thanks 😀
Great job as always, you are my new favorite tennis coach!!
Another gem from Tom....
Awesome and helpful video!
Excellent. This is exactly what I've been struggling with - to do the shoulder-over-shoulder move while still keeping the throwing motion with the elbow. I'll work on this today.
Thanks mate. I’ll send you a video response to your last video today.
Great video again. To me it's definitely a throwing motion...👍👍👍!
Super presentation w basics and advanced as all natural!
Nice video. It’s amazing if you go back and watch Vic Braden teach the serve in the 80’s how much of this he had figured out. It’s a kinetic chain uncoil, not a cartwheel. A Cartwheel would destroy the kinetic chain.
Great stuff 🎉
Awesome video!
Great video as always. Thanks Tom!
All in Tom
Really really helpful
As I see this question the shoulder on shoulder is an inevitable and necessary condition to serve naturally at a high speed with body weight transfer. The greater the weight charge, the rotation carries the right side of the body (on right handed) downwards. The great rotation does it by itself. We don't need to force that movement.
The same occurs with the arm going down because of a great flexion, a movement many times misunderstood and instructed only by visual imitation. Good job!
Simply the best!!! That’s simple! U r genius, Tom )))
Genius things are simple. Thank you Tom again!
Hi this is great way to serve. I like to get the racket to be starting on edge at point were the elbow is brought out so a good pronation of the waist. The point you make about the tilt is important so you keep the shoulder good. Thanks keep up the good work.
I'm going to work on leading with elbow. There's a serving expert who's featured by a couple of other tennis websites who says the serve is more of a shot put move. However, I think you're right that's it's a throwing motion. With a shot put you don't lead with the elbow. In slow motion videos of the pros serving, you can clearly see that they lead with the elbow.
Please send me that website. Shot put sounds like the worst advice ever.
@@TomAllsopp It's Marc Kovacs with Will Hamilton at Fuzzy Yellow Ball, who recently did a "shot put" serve drill. But I've heard the shot put from a couple of other coaches too.
I think maybe a javelin or football would be a better. Remember also that your chest and core actually pull your elbow up so don't try to move your elbow rather than engaging your back core/chest and pushing up with your legs. If your feet then chest leads the way your elbow naturally follows...then the forearm and wrist.
@@TomAllsopp Marc Kovacs is the author of the 8 stage developmental model of the serve. Ive no doubt its biomechanically on point but not sure the value of 8 stages in teaching the serve. when i watch Sampras Federer Krajicek etc i dont see 8 stages. Im pretty sure he had 3 stages from the moment of throwing the racket to impact which cant take more than 3 milliseconds at most.
@@TomAllsopp Here's a short video of one coach talking about this: th-cam.com/users/shortsoDaAWu_ISwg
Good lesson, starting with the elbow leading. Blast from the past...place the "swoosh" made by the racquet head behind the ball.
Very informative. I recently subscribed to your channel. I find your videos very instructional. Also, by the way, I noticed that you use Diadem products. Within the last one to two years, I have become a big fan of their rackets and strings
Very, very good. I believe by not leading with elbow cause pain in my shoulder rotator cuff. Likely leading with the shoulder by mistake?
Good video. Thanks. In trying to get the cartwheel, I’ve experienced what you’ve referring to as the error - a failure to lead with the elbow. It’s no bueno.
Big facts!
I agree (and teach) that learning to throw is a fundamental requirement for a tennis serve. There are similarities and differences between serving and throwing. Coaches who say that the serve is like a throwing motion focus on the similarities. Coaches who violently disagree that serve is nothing like a throwing motion focus on the differences.
This is true. But the throwing motion helps so many players. We can obviously point to the differences.
great video! if you can add other one with this and the key to not over rotate for slice, kick and flat serves will be complete, at least for me. Thanks coach!
Great explanation. Wish to take a personal lesson from you...
Thanks. Sign up for video analysis. It’s just as good. Probably better
Thanks Tom. Good stuff! This is a confusing area. It seems the serve involves 3 types of rotations at the same time. Horizontal, "cartwheel," and, according to some, "somersault" at the same time.
Thanks. Sounds complicated
I have tried to lead with the elbow,, I get stuck and lose momentum, I can do it in a shadow swing but not with the ball. Would love to see more videos on lead with elbow as my elbow does not go up and forward enough hence bad racket drop.
Are you suggesting to do this for all serves?
Not particularly about this video but your approach to the serve in general. For me where I am at there is a grey area between the idea and practice of a throw vs a 'hurl' from racket drop. Meaning a hurl is not a throw. Yet both seem important. So is it getting from the first movement of a throw, to a hurl at racket drop to back to a throw? What do you think?
Ah ha! My racket drop is not being initiated by the forward motion of the elbow. I’ve been “knocking off the birthday hat” - too wooden. Great demonstration and explanation. I’m off to work on this later in the day. Cheers.
After you release the ball, the tossing arm should continue to rise, giving you an upwards shoulder tilt.
As long as you get this starting upwards shoulder tilt, the "shoulder over shoulder motion" will automatically happen.
You do not have to think about "shoulder over shoulder" motion. Just go up and contact the ball.
This is also assuming the toss is accurate.
What about the hip- doesn’t that go around and down to?
Good content here, however I'm going to argue about how important it is to get the shoulder aligned with the ball at contact. Coaches tell students to toss into the court and drive with their legs, etc. but it's the shoulder location that is very important because that is the pivot point of the serve. I had a kid yesterday that had a decent serve but his racquet face was open at contact to counter the fact that his shoulder never got under the ball. There's a few things that are important and that shoulder location relative to the contact point is certainly one of them.
How’s that relate to my video? Genuine question
@@TomAllsopp I like the narrative around throwing the elbow, I use that too, in just saying that it is coordinated with rotating the shoulder upwards and in the court. You can throw the elbow but if you keep your shoulder joint too far back, your only option is to serve with an open racquet face. 🎾
👌🏼💥🎾
like
Interesting video. For another take on "All the greatest servers will end up with their elbow getting above their hand" see: th-cam.com/video/f0gnXSwrK00/w-d-xo.html @5:40 (I don't agree with his "flaw" characterization.)
his foot was in the court
you said "crikey" and ask why people think you're australian, mate. great vid though
That’s an English word
What shoiuldn't you do in a serve motion to avoid hurting your rotator cuff? any upward motion of the racket arm seems to have the potential to aggravate it, so not sure what can be "technically" to avoid this pain. #Help
I’d have to see your motion. I could probably see what the issue is if you sent me a video.