Peter Tägtgren didn't ruin black metal..... He didn't even ruin those bands which he produced... your video should title: "I don't like what Peter Tägtgren did in these albums"
I really don't see how Peter is to blame over the bands themselves. Peter didn't force them to go to his studio, they chose to. The band also chose the sound that they wanted, and in the end it's the band's choice. Producers and editors do make suggestions and tweak sounds or offer other ideas but at the end of the day it's the band's decision, they are the ones paying for his service not the other way around. Also those bands sound that way at first because they cannot afford bigger labels to produce and edit their stuff, which is why when they do have more money they go elsewhere. Most bands don't want to conform and in metal conforming is pretty much career suicide so I don't see them hearing the final product and think that they are conforming if that was the case Peter wouldn't have a thriving studio. The fact that these band's have a similar sounds is on the band's themselves, they had a say on whether or not they liked it and could have told him to tweak it, if it was his fault then that would mean that he went behind their backs and did whatever he wanted and if that was the case you would never see band's go to him. Plus some metal bands just sound similar to one another.
Obviously you have not wanted to expand your Black Metal horizons... Peter Tagtgren has, as I have. So have the other bands that requested his assistance on their albums. There are plenty of old school Black/Death Metal albums that Peter has no affiliation with... Please enjoy. No need to try and blast/bash one of the Death/Black METAL pioneer's of our time... Enjoy the rest of your day sir...
"I'm sure he still active" you didn't eve start doing well your investigation...Peter is still active in all his activities. Some of the bands you mention, like Immortal, start to sound well since Peter produced them, the sound before his production his horrible. In fact At The Heart of The Winter was claimen that one of the betters Immortal albums. And another thing is that he produced not only Immortal, but also Enslaved, that makes 2 bands of the Inner Circle...if you were in bands so particular, so agressive, so violent, you wouldn't go with any stupid to record their albums. If they still going with peter, its because he might know one thing or two about production and recording. In fact he has done lots of efforts to make bands keep moving...we should be thankfull for that.
Your "they sound all the same" examples don't sound any more the same than the "these sound unique" ones. You seem dead set on it being Peter forcing his sound on the bands, have you concidered that maybe the bands went to HIM because THEY liked how he did things?? The newer ones sounded larger and more well produced, maybe the bands wanted that? Especially if they had had less well produced albums before and wanted to step it up? Some bands want to sound underground forever, some don't, it's not for you to decide who's to "blame" if you haven't asked Peter/all the bands yourself. This feels a lot like "I only liked the old stuff when it was trve kvlt and lo-fi, someone has to be blamed for the change". I call clueless bullshit.
Yup, the reason is definitely him - not money, not popularity, not the band's opinions - Peter. If not for the guy's meddling, black metal would have still been in its purest form - uncovered, untouched, buried in a cave somewhere. What a shame. And P.S. - Nobody else had anything to do with it. Just Peter. Abducting your favourite cavemen in the middle of the night, bringing them to the dreaded Abyss, in order to produce their albums.
It's really only the drums that sound the same post- Dimmu Borgir. There's no way the argument can be made that the guitar tones are similar. Anyway, he saved Celtic Frost from themselves, so he'll always be cool for that.
I think it was just the sound of that era. Peter is a pretty cool musician and I enjoy his work in Hypocrisy and REALLY enjoyed what he did with Til Lindemann's solo project. Also, I really enjoyed Immortal's "At The Heart Of Winter" and "Damned In Black" albums. Dimmu is garbage to me tho post their 1st two albums.
The simple reason people hire Tägtgren for his sound is that it is a great sound. Seems like Brainsmasher simply hates the wide in your face sound. The albums don't even sound that similar. Quintessence is not the same as the Marduk albums, not even close. He just hates that essentially the thing that happened is that the sound of blackmetal went more modern.
I think this started a year earlier with Cradle of Filth's 'Dusk... and Her Embrace', which has some of the shiniest production i've ever heard, produced by Kit Woolven (Thin Lizzy, UFO, David Gilmour). He also did Cathedral a year before that. I've always felt Dimmu Borgir had an eye on Cradle of Filth, especially as they eventually took their original drummer. I also wouldn't call 'Enthrone Darkness Triumphant' a black metal album in the strictest sense, especially in those days. Overall, it depends on the album.
Damn. What an interesting topic! I never once really thought about this. I think we all noticed the sound shift but I never thought to attribute it to one particular studio or one particular engineer. I just always took it as the bands wanting that sound. But you're right. It definitely takes away from the originality that these bands could have had. Great video, man! Oh but Slaghtersun still sounds glorious to me...just saying...
Yeah having lived through this too, it was Abyss with Peter, at the same time it was Fredman with Nordstrom, then a lot decided to work with Bergstrand at Dugout, or Finstad at toproom then it shifted to Fascination street with Jens Bogren.. Generally things sound far less intense than what they were 25 years ago!
I think I never particularly noticed this because I am relatively young and I started listening to the late 90's records first. But now that you are mentioning it, i get this 'oh' feeling, and you are not wrong, considering the subjectiveness of the topic as it is. The problem is probably not with Tägtgren per se but I personally think it's a supply and demand type thing. There is a point that a sound engineer will go past a threshold and the only way to chug out all those albums in such a period was to use a 'template'. The sound worked for enthrone darkness triumphant and he probably stuck to it: Same cabs and micing position, same drumkits perhaps. It has the smell of the Auteur on it where he will have a major control over the tone and overall outcome. Probably the bands found it easier because it would have been the 'right' tone to boost sales which works both for the band and the label, and even him causing, again, more supply and demand. Taking from myself, i don't have one release which sounds like the other, but that's just me in my little home studio having a creative process which follows my compositions, something that he might didn't have the chance anymore, or simply refused to change after finding the aforementioned 'template' and milked the fuck out of it. Did that make sense? Anyway, I'm going to post this on a FB group and see if I can expand the discussion.
Clicked to check if this was a gag. Glad to see this got ratio'd. I worship that wirey, raw, and unchained late-90s Abyss studios sound. Damned In Black, Panzer Division Marduk, Slaughtersun, Spiritual Black Dimensions. The most metal these bands have ever sounded. I love me some clock radio sounding black metal as well, but I'm not such a hipster about it that I'll deny proper metal treatment when I hear it.
I don't go for Black Metal but was curious to check this out, so I listened to your amply preambled theory, the sample audio bits and some of Tägtgren's stuff; I get that you're a dedicated fan, but I find that you wind up making a kinda weak and well-known point. If this guy not only helped to promote and strengthen the sound of obscure bands without homogenizing them, as you say, doesn't his merit overshadow what such bands - like Dimmu Borgir, which I'm aware of - did later on with new shit that sounds flat or banal or whatever? Artistic productions are within a market, so what works best and gets most track gets inevitably machine-stamped or emulated in a way or another. There are bad albums, bad trends and bad bands as well; not only does this happen in every genre, but it also doesn't make it a death knell for this or that genre with passionate musicians and passionate fans. Maybe you just don't like the guy, and a beef's a beef, yeah, but there's also chicken wings and slow-cooked ribs and, you know... I'm hungry.
This is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to Elitist. Dissecting music like this is TRYING to find something that likely isn't there. I'll tell you what all of these albums have in common. Their producer and studio. None of these albums are the same album.
That is something that has been bugging me for years also, but I think thats almost common consensus among old grumps who get a bit twitchy confronting stuff recorded after 1997 (or at least in my circles). If you are to step beyond the Abyss studios though when it came to the late 90s the over-triggered drum sound was the real issue for me. Abyss was a cornerstone with that, but it was happening everywhere, be it Marduk or Emperor drumming was going from the sound of a storm to some electronic, perfectly programmed typewriter tapping away constantly. That said I do love Peter's description of how he "produced" the Aburuptum album he worked on. Think an old Terrorizer interview he said something like: 'You put Tony (IT) in the studio, then you go home for the weekend. When you got back there was nobody there, a stench of sulphur, blood EVERYWHERE and something on the tape.'
Sometimes an incredible production can make a band even greater. Example? Emperor. Every album is a masterpiece. The better the production values, the more epic the album.
Interesting topic... I never payed much attention to it since i really liked EDT or SBD by Dimmu, At The Heart Of Winter and the next works by Immortal too, same for Dark Funeral and others... I liked the more refined, powerful and clearer sound, but as you said, it took away some of every band's unique tone and personality... Now that you compared it, they sounded very similar to each others... Oh well, still love those albums... Hard to say if black metal really declined or not though, music change, different view, experimenting and stuff... Take Mayhem for example, they evolved like few, implementing progressive and avant-garde elements, it's great to me, the so hated Grand Declaration Of War is a masterpiece in my opinion...
Enthrone darkness triumphant is the best Dimmu album by a mile! Dimmu have said many times that they wanted that symphonic wall of sound with synths. They would have done what they could to achieve this sound regardless. They had already recorded two albums that sounded very similar.... I am not going to score popularity points here.... But I really fell in love with Sabaton 9 years or so ago. They have recorded all their material post their demo album with Tagtgren. And up until 2012 they had something unique and "heavy" that made them stand out in a genre I can't stand 99% of the time. But as Tagtgren's Pain has developed into a metal band. Even sprinkled with some Hypocrisy like vocals. Sabaton have pumped out two albums that sound very thin and synthetic. And with the latest one, they went pretty far overboard with the synths and sampling. The guitars are almost non present at times. And the drumming that made stuff I left on top of my speakers bounce off and hit the ground. The bass drums on their best albums shake the floor. On the new album they just disappear in the mix. Even releasing it on 45 rpm vinyl didn't improve the sound much.
I always knew there was something more about sabaton's early albums, I could never put my finger on it. The newest album however is fixing the problem I think, the guitars are a lot more present for sure
NOT EVERY BAND IS ALLOWED TO WORK WITH PETER! He choose and for sure they choose and what i heard it is not easy to get space in the Abyss Studio so for my opinion it was their own "fault"
I think it's an important distinction that you made in saying that the production value of these albums has little bearing in the quality of the material contained within. I enjoy many of the albums you mentioned immensely, and others I couldn't be bothered to listen to for any reason. The difference lies in the merit of the song writing (highly subjective, obviously). Just as we often times need to tease out the music from under-produced albums, likewise occasionally we need to do the same for over-produced albums. Or you can throw them out, I guess; what you do with your time is up to you. You're not wrong with your critique, and lord knows I have my bailiwick collection, but I am less ready to ignore the content on a lot of these releases because of the production. I guess my main takeaway from this video is that I need to spend some time with Thyrfing, because I've not done so at this point, and that clip made me perk up my ears.
I admire Peter Tägtgren for his work and obviously he "made a sound" that a lot of people liked and listened/listens to - AND he actually made and makes a living of all this (which is rare now a days). I do concur with you, the sound of that genre fucked up...sadly...BUT, the bands also had a say in all of this and they choose to record with him, because of the sound and it was a thing. But I DO AGREE WITH YOU still :-)
I totally agree that p.t. changed the sound... i just think it was for the better, or at least for the clearer. I loved the early 90s black metal sound because it demanded time and attention to hear the spite and beauty but I loved the mid-90s and forward because it was easy to listen to and everything was out in the open- ready to enjoy... plus anybody that has listened to damned in black on full volume knows how hard the bass pedals hit and I have a hard time knocking that...
@@Motorpunk666 well fuck me lol i guess i meant where and how they sound in the mix then? they sound heavy and not like clicking static in the background? you clearly know more than i do, maybe you could express it with more clarity than me.
Being younger (23), I hadn't ever considered this. I always did prefer black metal from the early to mid 90s as opposed to the albums you showed from the late 90s here. It kind of all makes sense now, thanks for taking the time to explain and lay all this out.
well, tagtren produced some of the best black metal albums ever like At the heart of winter, Enthrone darkness triumphant and so on and maybe except Panzer division marduk, i think they've all a great sound. maybe not trve, raw and underproduced, but they sound very well.
I'm not really into the proper underground (at least right now), but for me I don't think so much about the production. I enjoy lots of these records from Dark funeral, Marduk and Dawn. You have to remember Peter is a hard working busy guy. He leads a well known touring band and has (or had) a lot of production work to do, it's a lot for one guy. I just think it's cool he gave a lot of those albums a sound that retained some of the ethos of the production/s those bands had while pushing it further. Without him producing these albums the way he did fans like myself might not have been as interested by Immortal, Dawn, Marduk or Dark Funeral. One band from my home country Australia just put out an incredible debut album - Failure, Subside by Departe, maybe they are very known i don't know. Their album is clean and clear as day but it works so perfect, everything is so controlled and perfect, it adds to the massive low end driven atmosphere.
I miss the old Hypocrisy sound, I can't even listen to post Abducted albums anymore, I hate the sound and production 😔. Osculum Obscenum is my favorite still
I agree on some points about Abyss. I have noticed you could tell immediately that it was done there on some albums. I agree about the rise of more experimental and naturalistic bands too. However these bands were writing these records and signed off on the sound I assume. So if you don't like the sound, let's be glad it was a bubble and more varied approaches prevail.
I kind of agree with this, the examples of great. But but like most music progress killed the angst. If you look at the current trend in the stoner/sludge/doom metal area there is just a huge scene. but not so many of these bands have the gritty ness that old schoolers long for. I actually watched the needle drop complain about production on the new Burzum album a couple years ago. And with so many bands wanting to pander to the hot topic youth market. Which as you said and as I'll link kind of started with Dimmu Borgir. And Cradle of Filth maybe more to some degree. Because they wished to have such slick production. The same might also be said about Opeths love affair with Steve Wilson stripping away any extreme vocals. Yet again I would say to pander to a wider audience. This also happened many thrash bands at the end of there reign, such as Kreator or Sodom, or well the big four in general. I do while heartedly believe your statement about Peter. But the current state of Black Metal or any metal unfortunately is becoming stale from a production standpoint. However I do enjoy the new Nails releases. There's just something about them. I feel as though soon there will be some bands who get back to the roots of one microphone in a garage soon. Maybe Fenriz will take up some production duties soon.
You trully are right ! I've never paid attention to this though I've been listening Nightwing and Enthrone Darkness Triumphant for hours. That's incredible...too bad. I'm french and I confess I love listening to Deathspell Omega, their sound is just fantastic. Nehemah, Arkhon Infaustus, Hell Militia are not bad either ! Interesting topic.
a very harsh video title but indeed alot of those albums gave me metal fatigue back in the day, something was def off with the sound, gave me a splitting headache and the magic from these bands was gonne. I guess most of these people wanted to make a living out of it, can't blame em and Peter is a metal hero no mather what. Things are much different today and thankfully this music still exist, and how! cheers!
The same is said about death metal albums recorded at Morrisound by Scott Burns. Death, Obituary, Sepultura, Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel, Deicide, Pestilence, Exhorder, you name it. There are similarities, but ultimately it's still the songs and bands that make it sound unique. Scott just knew what the fuck he was doing and that was the sound bands were looking for. Same with Peter. So he is in no way to 'blame' for this, he just gave those bands the sound they wanted. And I think all those records sound great.
Title should be how Norwegian - Swedish sellouts ruined black metal. Also most of these bands you mentioned aren't even fully Black Metal. They were more like Blackened Death, or Melodic Black / Death, or Symphonic Gothic "Black Metal". Also this was a time producers were switching to Digital killing off the warm sounds in analogue tape, bands were going for the "Swedish Black Metal Riffage", Blast Beats IN EVERYTHING! at that time, Older BM bands were fucking selling out to Century Media, Nuclear Blast, Relapse records. Creating big "Rockstars" out of these bands. Lots of "Gothic" this and that elements.. Point being, no matter what era. Stay the fuck away from trendy bands pushed by big labels. It only forces an annoying saturated sound.
Haha, you make some good points. There was definitely an "elite" echelon of bands who were ushered into this abyss studios model, and they achieved that status by sacrificing some personality and integrity.
I feel like we are going back to the same 1998 early 2000's generic sound again. Everyone going back to clean as fuck production, everyone is trying to be a Mgla clone. I mean listen to most modern albums from Udua, Akhlys, Batushka, Downfall of Nur, Cult of Fire, Blut Aus Nord etc.. They are all so damn similar it's starting to become generic. Hell we went from the Corpsepaint running in forests trend (early 90's) to the gothic hot topic black metal rockstar (late 90's) to the now modern (2015 - 2017) oooh ahh "mysterious" band wearing leather jackets / hoodies or robes with a fucking black pantyhose covering their faces. Well we are nearing the end of a decade. Wonder what new trend 2020's - on is going to give us in black metal.
Maybe, just maybe the bands liked the sound coming out of Abyss studios, I know Morgan (Marduk) did, and it was a big reason they went there instead of Endarker studios.
What the name of the second band you played a sample of, with the album cover of a reaper holding some kind of elongated malice. Also: I will just stick to falkenbach, sacramentum, and Necromantia thanks.
Dunno what's with the dislikes, I like alot Tägtgren and his works (Hypocrisy live is one of the best bands I've ever seen) but he's right, alot of his later mastering sounded almost identical. At least Panzer Division Marduk still has notable sound. I wouldn't say he ruined BM though, as the bands who record with him know exactly the kind of sound soutput to expect. ;)
I think in extreme metal there are two versions of each genre, the commercial and the under,it is up to each band which sound to take depending on their interests. Peter always be characterized by that "modern" sound if you don't like it you just don't go with him, personally I enjoy metal in general, each genre has something to offer.I agree with how frustrating is monotony of certain albums , but that already seems to me a lack of creativity from the band itself, the production cannot alter the structure of a piece, the composition is always going to be the same unless those bands have turned to Peter as composer.
I guess that's just the way music works unfortunately. It happens in every genre. People get inspired by a certain band and just try to sound exactly like them, rather than creating their own original sound. You just kinda gotta dig for more unique bands within the genre, cause most are a dime a dozen.
To a certain extent, yeah I agree somewhat. I never grow tired of those studio's sound though. And I wouldn't agree that all the albums recorded there sound exactly the same.
Perhaps this speaks to the uniqueness of black metal. We don't typically speak of atmosphere and rawness in terms of other metal subgenres. "Good" production seems to certainly hinder that element.
I see brainsmasher's point. In fact, it's something I myself have noticed. It's not something I take strong issue with though. A lot of record studios have their signature sound much like a lot of bands have a signature sound and you know them instantly when you hear them. Abyss studios has a signature way of recording and mixing music that is unique. But these bands chose to go to Tagtgren's studio because he's one of the best producers in the world. They heard the finished product and clearly had no issue with how their albums sounded when they started pressing them. This might be more of a case of not wanting the music to change from how it was when you were younger. Should Black Metal albums of any form have good production is an argument that will go on until the end of time. I've always had a theory that if a lot of Black Metal bands had more money back in the day to work with they would have opted to make their albums with better quality sound. But to say Tagtgren ruined Black Metal is a bit harsh and overwhelmingly undeserving to say and claim. Black Metal was always its own worst enemy.
I really liked his production on the War EP, the abyss summon the beast and enslaved Mardraum, even Dimmu Borgir EDT or hypocrisy the final chapter. Afterwards everything sounds the same
Well put. Folks should raise more awareness of this issue - it's bad enough that mainstream metal has completely gone down the drain thanks to the whole "loudness war" and being infected with the pop music standard of ultra-compressed production with no dynamic range. Peter Tagtgren's signature sound is bad enough for the compression, but what makes him stand out as being a particularly awful producer and engineer is that anything after the pretty decent-sounding mid 90s stuff he worked on does all sound the same. It really is no wonder some bands like Enslaved and Amorphis didn't persevere with him after only using him on one album. Pytten was the genius who created timeless black metal albums in the 90s - he knew how to use space and reverb to give his albums an incredible sound and atmosphere.
I hate the trend of compression and "loudness", it makes albums sound "punchier" and more accessible but it it's technically lousy production, and in Tagtgren's case it does make them all sound the same. It put me off getting the new Immortal album, but having had it on repeat for the last week I think the music's so good you can get over it really, but it does annoy me they are so fond of Tagtgren that they won't consider anything else... If I were in their position, I wouldn't particularly want to sound like everyone else, regardless of what it might appear to achieve for the band. He does seem like a good guy, but this must be the norm for teaching sound engineering these days, that's not to say all modern producers have fallen for it, but those that have have probably been taught it by people who are teaching sound engineering to be applied to pop music/more commercial music, so they take that with them thinking that's how music is supposed to sound. The worse thing about Tagtgren is the guitars, their ultra compressed sound, I think it's this more than anything that make all his albums sound identical. Enslaved, Dimmu Borgir and Immortal are such radically different bands within the Norwegian black metal scene, and in the late 90s they all started to branch out a bit more, yet with At the Heart of Winter, Blodhemn and Enthrone Darkness Triumphant he somehow managed to make them all sound like albums by the same band...
maybe my ears are broke but i just don't understand what your getting at. good production is not a bad thing at all. I don't wanna hear music that sounds like it was made with an 8 track recorder
I think Colin Marston is my favorite mixer/ producer right now. I believe I got his name correct. He helped with all the Agalloch reissues and remastered and he mastered Panopticon- Kentucky. And I think that album is flawless. And I love Krallice that he's in!
Black metal was ruined when hundreds of copycats popped up and started copying early Norwegian way of handling production, instruments and vocals, thinking that's the only way of doing "black metal" due to that media buzz around non-musical activities. Consequently major metal crowd started attributing Black metal to a specific "sound", which of course is entirely false perception. Prior to that Black metal was a state of mind defined by satanic philosophy, which all started with Mercyful fate and Venom, music could be anything and that's was the main point. That's why 88-95 was extremely diverse, Root, Tormentor, Master's hammer, Morbid Angel, Necromantia, Ancient rites, Dissection, Order from chaos, Grotesque, Beherit, Samael, Rotting Christ, Varathron, Mystifier, Barathrum, Moonspell etc. pure creativity! Peter hardly played a big role here, although his production is too polished for my metal tastes. The same way "Death metal" was ruined. Originally not a "musical style" but a life style, fascination with death put to a musical realm of any kind, started by HH/CF's tales of decadence. Coincidentally, there was a band called Death who did that down-tuned sound yet sang about social issues, so newbies thought that this sound was what "death metal" was about and started ripping it off. Black/death were two sides of the same coin, Bathory, Dissection and Mayhem combined both type of aesthetics calling themselves death and black interchangeably, but thanks to copying idiots it all got divided against itself
Yeah, I really got your point and you are right, but it was not Peters fault, the main problem was in the bands that wanted to became famous by copying someone elses style. It's typical in every genre.
Peter didn’t ruin it, you’re just not into the sound. If he ruined it, you wouldn’t have great black metal bands today from every sub genre of black metal. You’re pretty ignorant
i was just lookin at nord by setherial somehow survived the abyss. um nightwing is my fav marduk album the slower heavy parts work well, albeit hypocrisy sound. overall sound wise i dont really like the whole wall of sound approach, hard to explain.
Very interesting, man. That Peter Tägtgren sound is definitely "the sound of black metal" of the late 90s, which is when I initially got into it... .and it's also the sound I eventually got tired of. Moreover, it's the "commercial black metal" sound I loved to deride when I re-discovered black metal in the mid 00s... and it's actually because of that kinda shit that I initially gravitated toward tapes and "bedroom black metal". A home-dubbed tape with a xerox cover is unlikely to sound slick like that, you know? And I'd rather listen to a band that's just bad than a band that's slick.
Thanks dude! I know we come off as old codgers for engendering opinions like these, but different strokes for everyone. This topic has always chapped my ass.
Could it be that Dimmu Borgir around that time got mainstream media attention and other bands were hoping to follow? That “wall of sound”, especially with the synths got pretty popular back then. Don’t know if it’s Peter’s fault or just those band’s fault for wanting that sound.
I don't care what you have to say about Peter Tägtgren, and I don't think he even cares, he is one of the most unbelievably talented humans, it's easy for someone just to sit back lazy on his couch and judge the ones who are doing the real hard work, he talked about the natural progress of music, you can't ask bands and music to stand still in that spot that you like, it's just not natural, all that you can do is just chose what to listen to.
You got some interesting points in your vid and there's definitely some truth in that. I mean, there was definitely some trendy things going on at the end of the 90s and the Abyss studio was somehow part of that. Talking about unification of the sound, his brother Tommy Tägtgren should be even more blamed for that, as he ran the Abyss B studio, produced some bush league black and death metal bands that haven't had the budget for Peter A class sound and they ended up sounding more plastic, generic and same as the others. On the other hand - i don't think the producer/sound engineer (Peter in this particular case) is solely to blame for things, I think it's also the bands themselves. When you're running a recording studio, especially focusing on some particular sub-genre(s), it's not actually in your powers to make them sound different, you'd have to change the equipment (not only the intruments, but also mics, compressors, etc) every session to make a difference, or changing the ways you are actually working, recording, making things going. Take some other producers and their studios. Fredrik Nordström's Fredman, Tue Madsen's Antfarm, Andy Sneap's Backstage Recording, more recently Jens Bogren and his Fascination Street Studios, etc, etc, they all tend to do the same. Same guitar sound, same drum sound in all the bands they are recording. You got some signature sound and the bands know what they'll got when they choose you. I also somehow like the bands and their Abyss albums more than when they were recording in shitty underground (Immortal, Enslaved, Marduk, etc.) even though they got similar sound...
Fascinating video. I know little of metal past the 80s, so my opinion might not mean much. To my ears it sounds like those later records were recorded with the use of computers. Maybe 98 was when he got ProTools? The drums are individually miked and mixed up and down separately and put in stereo. Where as the first recordings you played sounded like a kit in a room. Also all the instruments are really compressed and mixed to fill up the whole spectrum. The older recordings have much more breathing room and a more realistic sound and character. Probably a mic to board to tape. The thing to take into consideration is that a band (for the most part) chooses a producer and that's as much a part of their art as the songwriting, album cover etc. A record is a time piece with the good and bad choices etched forever. A band could have fired the producer, told him to change the sound, walked away or remixed an album if they weren't happy. It might not be all on one guys shoulders. I enjoyed this video even if I'm not too qualified to comment. Cheers, Jon
Of course, if all the bands recorded in Peter's studio, they would sound the same. Imagine bands like Satyricon, Marduk, Dissection, Falkenbach, Emperor and so many others in their early stages, all recording in the same studio, with the same sound engineer, very likely that they would lose their characteristics. But one thing is a fact, Peter is a great musician, sound engineer and he understands a lot in the musical area and that contributed to the world of metal including Black Metal. But he didnt what you said. 🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘
Wow, you're right. No wonder I didn't get into those particular albums. Sounds like the same fukin' band! Sad.. Never got into hypocrisy in the first place. No offense. (respects). Just not my taste. Thanks for sharing.
I can give you the fact that the mastering process may be alike in this productions, but Regarding the mixes they have lots of differents colours going on. anyway, it is still your opinion but you should keep it that way. i do prefer the metal sounding Awesome and killer and be able to hear all the little details on the music,not shitty productions and i thank peter for putting the bar Higher.
He did Enthrone? I did not know. I always remember not being crazy about it, and love my remastered version which isn’t something I normally say. And I also didn’t wanna give you credit cause I really like Peter. Was examining his insane vocals is how ai got here.
Don´t agree totally. Now I have been a musicians and played in both black metal and death metal bands, and every time, it up to the musicians to reveal how they want to sound like. Just take for example the Setherial record "Nord" which were produced in 95 i think, in the Abyss studio. That album is unique and amazing in sound. Of course you can think a little of Dark Funeral in there, but i can remember when i heard this, i threw my Dark Funeral "the secrets of the black arts" away, because Setherial was so much better, so much more cold, again an opinion.:-) Also Sorhin´s album "I Det Glimrande Mörkrets Djup" was well produced, and a favorite here. But I agree that the black metal bands becomed more clear in sound and the melodies becomed more clear. Sorry for the spelling! Cheers from Denmark.
Haha I may not listen to a lot of black metal, I stick to my old 5-10 favorite albums. But I always thought that was just the dark funeral sound, lol. But yeah you definitely have a point, the exampels really do sound the same!
Since when Is having the same mix/recording quality the same as making the same record? The music itself is different so I really don't get the complaining. Sounds more like a personal opinion and taste in music. Also the albums mentioned are killer BM records.
The broblem IS that when they record music they listen IT small rooms with headphones or not The gears and Place Make huge diffrents what you hear! And when your listen same music Day after Day and Many Times peace by peace 30secend there 30secend there..you become "deft" to it. Also your own music taste makes it's
These records are also INSANELY in your face. The production is like too bright often times. I remember feeling the same way. I’m also not a fan of the way those records sound. They give me a headache. It’s like too much push from everything. As if there isn’t any headroom it’s just everything cranked to 10
Its all subjective but ultimately its just a bands gimmick. That grimy, raw, rough sound is just a gimmick that maybe this guy prefers. Me personally im in love with the guitar and song writing that's all that matters to me.
It happened with death metal as well.Everybody went to Morrisound studios to work with Scott Burns because of his work with Death,Obituary,Deicide etc.Napalm Death recorded Harmony Corruption there and to this day i hate that album.It makes Napalm sound like every other cookie cutter DM/Grind band.The Morrisound just did not work for them in my opinion.Napalm learned their lesson and recorded their next album,Utopia banished with Colin Richardson in Wales.And hey presto they sounded like Napalm again.
I wholeheartedly agree except for Blodhemn and Nightwing, love those records. Also, that Ishtar record that I sent your way was also produced by Tagtgren and that one sounds amazing!!
Tried to see your point and I can not. First case is Marduk I love both albums Nightwing and Panzer Division and can tell them apart very easily they do not sound the same. Nightwing had a dark and somewhat murky sound compared to Panzer Div. to had a crisper and brighter sound on the production side which I feel did both albums justice. Second i do not see how you can just blame Peter, as bands went to Abyss to get a certain sound and production. it may sound plastic and not as good to you, but what about the bands that recorded there with Peter. I have never read bad presss from bands that have recorded there. So I guess my point is, you have to blame the bands just as much as producer and engineer. As bands have a say also in the sound they want and tell that to both producer and engineer.
Meh. You come off sounding like one of those guys who likes a band's first album that no one has heard and then when other people start listening to them, you hate every subsequent album, and not necessarily because they're bad albums. Definition of an elitist.... Did you ever stop to think that maybe bands came to Peter and the Abyss because they liked the sounds/tones he was achieving then? He was doing a TON of producing/recording then, was the hot thing in underground metal and everyone wanted to have him do their albums. Let's not forget that Peter (like most producers) doesn't work in the studio autonomously....recording is a collaborative effort and those bands certainly had input in how the final product sounded. Blaming Peter is short-sighted and presumptuous. So to say Peter ruined black metal is a stretch and, frankly, comes off sounding like you're using his name in conjunction with a controversial tagline to get some page clicks. Kinda like how a lot of people used his name back then to market their albums....that sold really well BTW. FWIW, I enjoy listening to music that has decent production.....and music with shitty production better be pretty goddam good music.
brainsmasher I actually have a friend here who's really into production. He's mostly indifferent to music, but he can sit around and analyze the production all day long. It can be kinda frustrating though, when he's playing shit like Thriller and raving about how well made it is. By the way, you're a dick. I'm gonna start liking all your favorite bands just to spoil them for you.
Isn't the problem just loudness? compare vinyl and CD DR on Enthrone Darkness: dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/24701 dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/26074
There is a reason Peter's studio is so popular, because he's GOOD at what he does. He gave these bands a polished and defined sound to their music. If you are into the lo-fi shit, just listen to early Mayhem and Burzum. Every band's goal is to be famous, and every record company's goal is to make money. So you need talent in order to create a quality product. Sorry Bud, your arguments are elitist and people don't become successful by just criticizing everyone else; they become successful by going out there and doing something. So don't blame Peter for your own short-comings! Enough said.
the title should probably be "how some guy slightly ruined some more popular black metal bands..." there is so much diversity in the black metal genre that I think the stagnation of the late 90s and 2000s can be forgiven. All genres and forms of music have dips and dives in innovation and creativity and when that is lacking everyone uses the same few good examples and everything sounds too similar. And I think that is the issue, no matter how underground a scene is there will always be bandwagons to jump on and so many bands will jump on and forget the loss of creativity. But overall I don't think that it really matters anymore as black metal has moved on and I hardly touch any of these bands. In fact I think searching through all the similar crap is fun and appeals to my sense of discovery and when you finally find a good or interesting band that is worth something.
Do your homework. Peter Tägtgren recorded way before 1995. But I must say, I always didn't liked his sound and his way of mixing. But I think it is narrow-minded of you to say he ruined black metal. You make a fool out of yourself. 1st. Define black metal, recorded by him. 2nd. Besides the BM bands recorded by him, there are a lot of band who stayed BM outside the bands Tägtgren. 3rd. You want to the BMbands that are recorded by him are ruined, is that just his blame or maybe did those bands cooperate in that? 4th. Maybe you just let the listener decide instead push you opinion through another person's throat. In that way you let people think and judge by themselves and let themselves learn how they like to listen to music. Your opinion is not interesting. Black Metal back in the early 90's wasn't meant for the masses anyway. Throw the cam away and start talking WITH real people. Cheers
Curiously enough, in a recent discussion about top producers that made their albums sound like shit, we mentioned Erik Rutan and Akkerhaugen Studios (Emperor, Zyklon, Myrkskog...), and I just came with the Abyss recordings from 1997 onward. Then a friend suggested me to check this video. I must say that I mostly agree with the point expressed here. While I still enjoy albums as "Slaughtersun", "At the Heart of the Winter" or "Blodhemn", it's true that they more or less sound equal and quite synthetic. However, among the early recordings I think that you've forgotten some interesting albums from 1995: "Vittra", "Nord..." and "Secrets of the Black Arts". But what's even worse, if Peter Tagtren set a quite awful production standard in those late 90's albums, the "lowcost alternative", his brother Tommy, made the albums even unlistenable. Just check "Holy Target" (Raise Hell), "Hell Eternal" (Setherial), "The Apocalypse Manifesto" (Enthroned) or "In Nomine Sathanas" (Ragnarok), to name a few. Their sound is annoying at best!
Thanks for the comment and for watching. I wasn't sure if I should use Naglfar or not because Metal Archives only credits him as "engineer" on Vittra, where the other albums I featured he was listed as mixing, production, and / or recording.
Peter Tägtgren didn't ruin black metal..... He didn't even ruin those bands which he produced... your video should title: "I don't like what Peter Tägtgren did in these albums"
I really don't see how Peter is to blame over the bands themselves. Peter didn't force them to go to his studio, they chose to. The band also chose the sound that they wanted, and in the end it's the band's choice. Producers and editors do make suggestions and tweak sounds or offer other ideas but at the end of the day it's the band's decision, they are the ones paying for his service not the other way around. Also those bands sound that way at first because they cannot afford bigger labels to produce and edit their stuff, which is why when they do have more money they go elsewhere. Most bands don't want to conform and in metal conforming is pretty much career suicide so I don't see them hearing the final product and think that they are conforming if that was the case Peter wouldn't have a thriving studio. The fact that these band's have a similar sounds is on the band's themselves, they had a say on whether or not they liked it and could have told him to tweak it, if it was his fault then that would mean that he went behind their backs and did whatever he wanted and if that was the case you would never see band's go to him. Plus some metal bands just sound similar to one another.
right.. style decisions.
truth..
This is so accurate!!!! To place blame on one person for a genres sound changing is ludicrous!!!!
EXACTLY this guy doesn't get that the bands WANTED to have that sound.
You just said he was Bob Rock?!?!? Tagtgren was just starting and to bust your bubble,from this day to going back has made masterful albums.
Peter is the greatest producer ever in Etreme Metal.
As far as I'm concerned
this is the most factual statment that could ever be made - this guy sucks the cock of varg varkins what a poser
Obviously you have not wanted to expand your Black Metal horizons... Peter Tagtgren has, as I have. So have the other bands that requested his assistance on their albums. There are plenty of old school Black/Death Metal albums that Peter has no affiliation with... Please enjoy. No need to try and blast/bash one of the Death/Black METAL pioneer's of our time... Enjoy the rest of your day sir...
Exactly 🙂
No one can't ruin music, only band can do it.
"I'm sure he still active" you didn't eve start doing well your investigation...Peter is still active in all his activities.
Some of the bands you mention, like Immortal, start to sound well since Peter produced them, the sound before his production his horrible. In fact At The Heart of The Winter was claimen that one of the betters Immortal albums.
And another thing is that he produced not only Immortal, but also Enslaved, that makes 2 bands of the Inner Circle...if you were in bands so particular, so agressive, so violent, you wouldn't go with any stupid to record their albums. If they still going with peter, its because he might know one thing or two about production and recording. In fact he has done lots of efforts to make bands keep moving...we should be thankfull for that.
Totally disagree with all of this.
Totally AGREE! Peter made some of the best black metal albums EVER! And not black metal only.
@@brainsmasher666 why does your opinion matter more? is it that you're a TH-cam snob?
Your "they sound all the same" examples don't sound any more the same than the "these sound unique" ones. You seem dead set on it being Peter forcing his sound on the bands, have you concidered that maybe the bands went to HIM because THEY liked how he did things?? The newer ones sounded larger and more well produced, maybe the bands wanted that? Especially if they had had less well produced albums before and wanted to step it up? Some bands want to sound underground forever, some don't, it's not for you to decide who's to "blame" if you haven't asked Peter/all the bands yourself. This feels a lot like "I only liked the old stuff when it was trve kvlt and lo-fi, someone has to be blamed for the change". I call clueless bullshit.
Dito!!!👍👍👍👍👍
Yup, the reason is definitely him - not money, not popularity, not the band's opinions - Peter. If not for the guy's meddling, black metal would have still been in its purest form - uncovered, untouched, buried in a cave somewhere. What a shame.
And P.S. - Nobody else had anything to do with it. Just Peter. Abducting your favourite cavemen in the middle of the night, bringing them to the dreaded Abyss, in order to produce their albums.
Oh boohoo black metal doesn't sound the same as it used too, dude that original sound would be boring as fuck if every band did it
It's really only the drums that sound the same post- Dimmu Borgir. There's no way the argument can be made that the guitar tones are similar. Anyway, he saved Celtic Frost from themselves, so he'll always be cool for that.
spot on... its the drums ..
I dunno, Slaughtersun sounds excellent to these well-worn ears!
When I saw DAWN on that list I knew this guy was full of shit
I want to see this guy getting slapped repeatedly,can we make go fund page for that?
I think it was just the sound of that era. Peter is a pretty cool musician and I enjoy his work in Hypocrisy and REALLY enjoyed what he did with Til Lindemann's solo project.
Also, I really enjoyed Immortal's "At The Heart Of Winter" and "Damned In Black" albums. Dimmu is garbage to me tho post their 1st two albums.
Also, thanks for showing that clip of Dawn. Gotta check them out more now!
Dawn is a dead horse I beat pretty regularly. Their debut is the definition of amazing,
brainsmasher Siiiiick, is it just selftitled?
BlackMetalRebellion no their debut is "Nær sólen gar niþer for evogher"
The simple reason people hire Tägtgren for his sound is that it is a great sound. Seems like Brainsmasher simply hates the wide in your face sound. The albums don't even sound that similar. Quintessence is not the same as the Marduk albums, not even close. He just hates that essentially the thing that happened is that the sound of blackmetal went more modern.
I think this started a year earlier with Cradle of Filth's 'Dusk... and Her Embrace', which has some of the shiniest production i've ever heard, produced by Kit Woolven (Thin Lizzy, UFO, David Gilmour). He also did Cathedral a year before that. I've always felt Dimmu Borgir had an eye on Cradle of Filth, especially as they eventually took their original drummer. I also wouldn't call 'Enthrone Darkness Triumphant' a black metal album in the strictest sense, especially in those days. Overall, it depends on the album.
Damn. What an interesting topic! I never once really thought about this. I think we all noticed the sound shift but I never thought to attribute it to one particular studio or one particular engineer. I just always took it as the bands wanting that sound. But you're right. It definitely takes away from the originality that these bands could have had. Great video, man!
Oh but Slaghtersun still sounds glorious to me...just saying...
I have never been able to really fully embrace Slaughtersun. I could pontificate upon it for days but thats just the way it is.
Yeah having lived through this too, it was Abyss with Peter, at the same time it was Fredman with Nordstrom, then a lot decided to work with Bergstrand at Dugout, or Finstad at toproom then it shifted to Fascination street with Jens Bogren.. Generally things sound far less intense than what they were 25 years ago!
6:22 you just answered the question to this entire video.
I think I never particularly noticed this because I am relatively young and I started listening to the late 90's records first. But now that you are mentioning it, i get this 'oh' feeling, and you are not wrong, considering the subjectiveness of the topic as it is.
The problem is probably not with Tägtgren per se but I personally think it's a supply and demand type thing. There is a point that a sound engineer will go past a threshold and the only way to chug out all those albums in such a period was to use a 'template'. The sound worked for enthrone darkness triumphant and he probably stuck to it: Same cabs and micing position, same drumkits perhaps. It has the smell of the Auteur on it where he will have a major control over the tone and overall outcome. Probably the bands found it easier because it would have been the 'right' tone to boost sales which works both for the band and the label, and even him causing, again, more supply and demand.
Taking from myself, i don't have one release which sounds like the other, but that's just me in my little home studio having a creative process which follows my compositions, something that he might didn't have the chance anymore, or simply refused to change after finding the aforementioned 'template' and milked the fuck out of it.
Did that make sense? Anyway, I'm going to post this on a FB group and see if I can expand the discussion.
Clicked to check if this was a gag. Glad to see this got ratio'd.
I worship that wirey, raw, and unchained late-90s Abyss studios sound. Damned In Black, Panzer Division Marduk, Slaughtersun, Spiritual Black Dimensions. The most metal these bands have ever sounded.
I love me some clock radio sounding black metal as well, but I'm not such a hipster about it that I'll deny proper metal treatment when I hear it.
I don't go for Black Metal but was curious to check this out, so I listened to your amply preambled theory, the sample audio bits and some of Tägtgren's stuff; I get that you're a dedicated fan, but I find that you wind up making a kinda weak and well-known point.
If this guy not only helped to promote and strengthen the sound of obscure bands without homogenizing them, as you say, doesn't his merit overshadow what such bands - like Dimmu Borgir, which I'm aware of - did later on with new shit that sounds flat or banal or whatever? Artistic productions are within a market, so what works best and gets most track gets inevitably machine-stamped or emulated in a way or another. There are bad albums, bad trends and bad bands as well; not only does this happen in every genre, but it also doesn't make it a death knell for this or that genre with passionate musicians and passionate fans. Maybe you just don't like the guy, and a beef's a beef, yeah, but there's also chicken wings and slow-cooked ribs and, you know... I'm hungry.
Dimmu's sound on EDT is mainstream and made them marketable. You do have a point. I personally haven't got a problem with the sound.
Peter Tagtgren was always in Hypocrisy so I don't think its fair to include it in your examples.
I see it more as a modernisation , something black metal really needed
This is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to Elitist. Dissecting music like this is TRYING to find something that likely isn't there. I'll tell you what all of these albums have in common. Their producer and studio. None of these albums are the same album.
That is something that has been bugging me for years also, but I think thats almost common consensus among old grumps who get a bit twitchy confronting stuff recorded after 1997 (or at least in my circles).
If you are to step beyond the Abyss studios though when it came to the late 90s the over-triggered drum sound was the real issue for me. Abyss was a cornerstone with that, but it was happening everywhere, be it Marduk or Emperor drumming was going from the sound of a storm to some electronic, perfectly programmed typewriter tapping away constantly.
That said I do love Peter's description of how he "produced" the Aburuptum album he worked on. Think an old Terrorizer interview he said something like:
'You put Tony (IT) in the studio, then you go home for the weekend. When you got back there was nobody there, a stench of sulphur, blood EVERYWHERE and something on the tape.'
Sometimes an incredible production can make a band even greater. Example?
Emperor.
Every album is a masterpiece.
The better the production values, the more epic the album.
I feel like the last album has too good of a production and loses the atmosphere, for me anthems was the perfect mix.
Interesting topic... I never payed much attention to it since i really liked EDT or SBD by Dimmu, At The Heart Of Winter and the next works by Immortal too, same for Dark Funeral and others... I liked the more refined, powerful and clearer sound, but as you said, it took away some of every band's unique tone and personality... Now that you compared it, they sounded very similar to each others... Oh well, still love those albums... Hard to say if black metal really declined or not though, music change, different view, experimenting and stuff... Take Mayhem for example, they evolved like few, implementing progressive and avant-garde elements, it's great to me, the so hated Grand Declaration Of War is a masterpiece in my opinion...
Enthrone darkness triumphant is the best Dimmu album by a mile! Dimmu have said many times that they wanted that symphonic wall of sound with synths. They would have done what they could to achieve this sound regardless. They had already recorded two albums that sounded very similar....
I am not going to score popularity points here.... But I really fell in love with Sabaton 9 years or so ago. They have recorded all their material post their demo album with Tagtgren. And up until 2012 they had something unique and "heavy" that made them stand out in a genre I can't stand 99% of the time. But as Tagtgren's Pain has developed into a metal band. Even sprinkled with some Hypocrisy like vocals. Sabaton have pumped out two albums that sound very thin and synthetic. And with the latest one, they went pretty far overboard with the synths and sampling. The guitars are almost non present at times. And the drumming that made stuff I left on top of my speakers bounce off and hit the ground. The bass drums on their best albums shake the floor. On the new album they just disappear in the mix. Even releasing it on 45 rpm vinyl didn't improve the sound much.
I always knew there was something more about sabaton's early albums, I could never put my finger on it. The newest album however is fixing the problem I think, the guitars are a lot more present for sure
NOT EVERY BAND IS ALLOWED TO WORK WITH PETER! He choose and for sure they choose and what i heard it is not easy to get space in the Abyss Studio so for my opinion it was their own "fault"
I think it's an important distinction that you made in saying that the production value of these albums has little bearing in the quality of the material contained within. I enjoy many of the albums you mentioned immensely, and others I couldn't be bothered to listen to for any reason. The difference lies in the merit of the song writing (highly subjective, obviously). Just as we often times need to tease out the music from under-produced albums, likewise occasionally we need to do the same for over-produced albums. Or you can throw them out, I guess; what you do with your time is up to you. You're not wrong with your critique, and lord knows I have my bailiwick collection, but I am less ready to ignore the content on a lot of these releases because of the production.
I guess my main takeaway from this video is that I need to spend some time with Thyrfing, because I've not done so at this point, and that clip made me perk up my ears.
Thanks for recognizing that clarification. The more intelligent discourse on here is worthwhile.
I admire Peter Tägtgren for his work and obviously he "made a sound" that a lot of people liked and listened/listens to - AND he actually made and makes a living of all this (which is rare now a days). I do concur with you, the sound of that genre fucked up...sadly...BUT, the bands also had a say in all of this and they choose to record with him, because of the sound and it was a thing.
But I DO AGREE WITH YOU still :-)
I totally agree that p.t. changed the sound... i just think it was for the better, or at least for the clearer. I loved the early 90s black metal sound because it demanded time and attention to hear the spite and beauty but I loved the mid-90s and forward because it was easy to listen to and everything was out in the open- ready to enjoy... plus anybody that has listened to damned in black on full volume knows how hard the bass pedals hit and I have a hard time knocking that...
The drums are triggered, so there is no way you can hear how hard the pedals actually hit.
@@Motorpunk666 well fuck me lol i guess i meant where and how they sound in the mix then? they sound heavy and not like clicking static in the background? you clearly know more than i do, maybe you could express it with more clarity than me.
Being younger (23), I hadn't ever considered this. I always did prefer black metal from the early to mid 90s as opposed to the albums you showed from the late 90s here. It kind of all makes sense now, thanks for taking the time to explain and lay all this out.
well, tagtren produced some of the best black metal albums ever like At the heart of winter, Enthrone darkness triumphant and so on and maybe except Panzer division marduk, i think they've all a great sound. maybe not trve, raw and underproduced, but they sound very well.
What's the background music?
I'm not really into the proper underground (at least right now), but for me I don't think so much about the production. I enjoy lots of these records from Dark funeral, Marduk and Dawn. You have to remember Peter is a hard working busy guy. He leads a well known touring band and has (or had) a lot of production work to do, it's a lot for one guy. I just think it's cool he gave a lot of those albums a sound that retained some of the ethos of the production/s those bands had while pushing it further. Without him producing these albums the way he did fans like myself might not have been as interested by Immortal, Dawn, Marduk or Dark Funeral. One band from my home country Australia just put out an incredible debut album - Failure, Subside by Departe, maybe they are very known i don't know. Their album is clean and clear as day but it works so perfect, everything is so controlled and perfect, it adds to the massive low end driven atmosphere.
I miss the old Hypocrisy sound, I can't even listen to post Abducted albums anymore, I hate the sound and production 😔. Osculum Obscenum is my favorite still
And you are... Who??
abangela Man opinions are scarrry
He is a hobo that probably works in a factory, and his channel is terrible.
@@shanesmith7672 Still better than you XD
I agree on some points about Abyss. I have noticed you could tell immediately that it was done there on some albums. I agree about the rise of more experimental and naturalistic bands too.
However these bands were writing these records and signed off on the sound I assume.
So if you don't like the sound, let's be glad it was a bubble and more varied approaches prevail.
I kind of agree with this, the examples of great. But but like most music progress killed the angst. If you look at the current trend in the stoner/sludge/doom metal area there is just a huge scene. but not so many of these bands have the gritty ness that old schoolers long for. I actually watched the needle drop complain about production on the new Burzum album a couple years ago. And with so many bands wanting to pander to the hot topic youth market. Which as you said and as I'll link kind of started with Dimmu Borgir. And Cradle of Filth maybe more to some degree. Because they wished to have such slick production. The same might also be said about Opeths love affair with Steve Wilson stripping away any extreme vocals. Yet again I would say to pander to a wider audience. This also happened many thrash bands at the end of there reign, such as Kreator or Sodom, or well the big four in general. I do while heartedly believe your statement about Peter. But the current state of Black Metal or any metal unfortunately is becoming stale from a production standpoint. However I do enjoy the new Nails releases. There's just something about them. I feel as though soon there will be some bands who get back to the roots of one microphone in a garage soon. Maybe Fenriz will take up some production duties soon.
You trully are right ! I've never paid attention to this though I've been listening Nightwing and Enthrone Darkness Triumphant for hours. That's incredible...too bad. I'm french and I confess I love listening to Deathspell Omega, their sound is just fantastic. Nehemah, Arkhon Infaustus, Hell Militia are not bad either ! Interesting topic.
a very harsh video title but indeed alot of those albums gave me metal fatigue back in the day, something was def off with the sound, gave me a splitting headache and the magic from these bands was gonne. I guess most of these people wanted to make a living out of it, can't blame em and Peter is a metal hero no mather what. Things are much different today and thankfully this music still exist, and how! cheers!
The same is said about death metal albums recorded at Morrisound by Scott Burns. Death, Obituary, Sepultura, Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel, Deicide, Pestilence, Exhorder, you name it. There are similarities, but ultimately it's still the songs and bands that make it sound unique. Scott just knew what the fuck he was doing and that was the sound bands were looking for. Same with Peter. So he is in no way to 'blame' for this, he just gave those bands the sound they wanted. And I think all those records sound great.
"waah my black metal albums aren't potatoe quality enough" just be quiet and enjoy the music, good music is good music.
Title should be how Norwegian - Swedish sellouts ruined black metal. Also most of these bands you mentioned aren't even fully Black Metal. They were more like Blackened Death, or Melodic Black / Death, or Symphonic Gothic "Black Metal". Also this was a time producers were switching to Digital killing off the warm sounds in analogue tape, bands were going for the "Swedish Black Metal Riffage", Blast Beats IN EVERYTHING! at that time, Older BM bands were fucking selling out to Century Media, Nuclear Blast, Relapse records. Creating big "Rockstars" out of these bands. Lots of "Gothic" this and that elements..
Point being, no matter what era. Stay the fuck away from trendy bands pushed by big labels. It only forces an annoying saturated sound.
Haha, you make some good points. There was definitely an "elite" echelon of bands who were ushered into this abyss studios model, and they achieved that status by sacrificing some personality and integrity.
Elitist Black Metal fans are truly annoying. Especially the ones who say what it can and can't be about.
I feel like we are going back to the same 1998 early 2000's generic sound again. Everyone going back to clean as fuck production, everyone is trying to be a Mgla clone. I mean listen to most modern albums from Udua, Akhlys, Batushka, Downfall of Nur, Cult of Fire, Blut Aus Nord etc.. They are all so damn similar it's starting to become generic. Hell we went from the Corpsepaint running in forests trend (early 90's) to the gothic hot topic black metal rockstar (late 90's) to the now modern (2015 - 2017) oooh ahh "mysterious" band wearing leather jackets / hoodies or robes with a fucking black pantyhose covering their faces. Well we are nearing the end of a decade. Wonder what new trend 2020's - on is going to give us in black metal.
Swede here. I've been listening to black metal since the late 90s and always wondered where those fucking synths came from. Now I know. It was Pain...
Could anyone please tell me the name of the band at 3:00? Can't read it, but it sounds pretty interesting.
Arckanum "Fran Marder"
I agree, the later stuff sounds very ear-fatiguing for sure. The way it's mixed/mastered.
Maybe, just maybe the bands liked the sound coming out of Abyss studios, I know Morgan (Marduk) did, and it was a big reason they went there instead of Endarker studios.
What the name of the second band you played a sample of, with the album cover of a reaper holding some kind of elongated malice.
Also: I will just stick to falkenbach, sacramentum, and Necromantia thanks.
That would be Arckanum with "Fran Marder"
Dunno what's with the dislikes, I like alot Tägtgren and his works (Hypocrisy live is one of the best bands I've ever seen) but he's right, alot of his later mastering sounded almost identical. At least Panzer Division Marduk still has notable sound. I wouldn't say he ruined BM though, as the bands who record with him know exactly the kind of sound soutput to expect. ;)
Great points, awesome examples, you got my subscription! Keep it up man, cheers from Latvia! \m/
I think in extreme metal there are two versions of each genre, the commercial and the under,it is up to each band which sound to take depending on their interests.
Peter always be characterized by that "modern" sound if you don't like it you just don't go with him, personally I enjoy metal in general, each genre has something to offer.I agree with how frustrating is monotony of certain albums , but that already seems to me a lack of creativity from the band itself, the production cannot alter the structure of a piece, the composition is always going to be the same unless those bands have turned to Peter as composer.
I generally agree with you. I think Immortal is the exception though. Except maybe with Damned In Black.
I guess that's just the way music works unfortunately. It happens in every genre. People get inspired by a certain band and just try to sound exactly like them, rather than creating their own original sound. You just kinda gotta dig for more unique bands within the genre, cause most are a dime a dozen.
Cannot the same be said for Morrisound and Sunlight? Bands flocked to those studios in order to achieve a desired template.
To a certain extent, yeah I agree somewhat. I never grow tired of those studio's sound though. And I wouldn't agree that all the albums recorded there sound exactly the same.
Perhaps this speaks to the uniqueness of black metal. We don't typically speak of atmosphere and rawness in terms of other metal subgenres. "Good" production seems to certainly hinder that element.
I see brainsmasher's point. In fact, it's something I myself have noticed. It's not something I take strong issue with though. A lot of record studios have their signature sound much like a lot of bands have a signature sound and you know them instantly when you hear them. Abyss studios has a signature way of recording and mixing music that is unique. But these bands chose to go to Tagtgren's studio because he's one of the best producers in the world. They heard the finished product and clearly had no issue with how their albums sounded when they started pressing them. This might be more of a case of not wanting the music to change from how it was when you were younger. Should Black Metal albums of any form have good production is an argument that will go on until the end of time. I've always had a theory that if a lot of Black Metal bands had more money back in the day to work with they would have opted to make their albums with better quality sound. But to say Tagtgren ruined Black Metal is a bit harsh and overwhelmingly undeserving to say and claim. Black Metal was always its own worst enemy.
Well said!
man I love EDT
Dude, bands sound the same because they fucking play the same, same blastbeats, same tremolo guitar and same growls, over and over again.
nah.
I really liked his production on the War EP, the abyss summon the beast and enslaved Mardraum, even Dimmu Borgir EDT or hypocrisy the final chapter. Afterwards everything sounds the same
Worst Troll ever
Well put. Folks should raise more awareness of this issue - it's bad enough that mainstream metal has completely gone down the drain thanks to the whole "loudness war" and being infected with the pop music standard of ultra-compressed production with no dynamic range. Peter Tagtgren's signature sound is bad enough for the compression, but what makes him stand out as being a particularly awful producer and engineer is that anything after the pretty decent-sounding mid 90s stuff he worked on does all sound the same. It really is no wonder some bands like Enslaved and Amorphis didn't persevere with him after only using him on one album. Pytten was the genius who created timeless black metal albums in the 90s - he knew how to use space and reverb to give his albums an incredible sound and atmosphere.
Well put, glad to see someone agree with me on this, Ive been taking shit for my stance on this on a daily basis hahah.
I hate the trend of compression and "loudness", it makes albums sound "punchier" and more accessible but it it's technically lousy production, and in Tagtgren's case it does make them all sound the same. It put me off getting the new Immortal album, but having had it on repeat for the last week I think the music's so good you can get over it really, but it does annoy me they are so fond of Tagtgren that they won't consider anything else... If I were in their position, I wouldn't particularly want to sound like everyone else, regardless of what it might appear to achieve for the band. He does seem like a good guy, but this must be the norm for teaching sound engineering these days, that's not to say all modern producers have fallen for it, but those that have have probably been taught it by people who are teaching sound engineering to be applied to pop music/more commercial music, so they take that with them thinking that's how music is supposed to sound. The worse thing about Tagtgren is the guitars, their ultra compressed sound, I think it's this more than anything that make all his albums sound identical. Enslaved, Dimmu Borgir and Immortal are such radically different bands within the Norwegian black metal scene, and in the late 90s they all started to branch out a bit more, yet with At the Heart of Winter, Blodhemn and Enthrone Darkness Triumphant he somehow managed to make them all sound like albums by the same band...
maybe my ears are broke but i just don't understand what your getting at. good production is not a bad thing at all. I don't wanna hear music that sounds like it was made with an 8 track recorder
I think Colin Marston is my favorite mixer/ producer right now. I believe I got his name correct. He helped with all the Agalloch reissues and remastered and he mastered Panopticon- Kentucky. And I think that album is flawless. And I love Krallice that he's in!
Black metal was ruined when hundreds of copycats popped up and started copying early Norwegian way of handling production, instruments and vocals, thinking that's the only way of doing "black metal" due to that media buzz around non-musical activities. Consequently major metal crowd started attributing Black metal to a specific "sound", which of course is entirely false perception. Prior to that Black metal was a state of mind defined by satanic philosophy, which all started with Mercyful fate and Venom, music could be anything and that's was the main point. That's why 88-95 was extremely diverse, Root, Tormentor, Master's hammer, Morbid Angel, Necromantia, Ancient rites, Dissection, Order from chaos, Grotesque, Beherit, Samael, Rotting Christ, Varathron, Mystifier, Barathrum, Moonspell etc. pure creativity! Peter hardly played a big role here, although his production is too polished for my metal tastes. The same way "Death metal" was ruined. Originally not a "musical style" but a life style, fascination with death put to a musical realm of any kind, started by HH/CF's tales of decadence. Coincidentally, there was a band called Death who did that down-tuned sound yet sang about social issues, so newbies thought that this sound was what "death metal" was about and started ripping it off. Black/death were two sides of the same coin, Bathory, Dissection and Mayhem combined both type of aesthetics calling themselves death and black interchangeably, but thanks to copying idiots it all got divided against itself
Yeah, I really got your point and you are right, but it was not Peters fault, the main problem was in the bands that wanted to became famous by copying someone elses style. It's typical in every genre.
Peter didn’t ruin it, you’re just not into the sound. If he ruined it, you wouldn’t have great black metal bands today from every sub genre of black metal. You’re pretty ignorant
Thanks!
@@brainsmasher666you’re welcome. Keep continuing to be narrow minded! The metal community has no shortage of that
i was just lookin at nord by setherial somehow survived the abyss. um nightwing is my fav marduk album the slower heavy parts work well, albeit hypocrisy sound. overall sound wise i dont really like the whole wall of sound approach, hard to explain.
Very interesting, man. That Peter Tägtgren sound is definitely "the sound of black metal" of the late 90s, which is when I initially got into it... .and it's also the sound I eventually got tired of. Moreover, it's the "commercial black metal" sound I loved to deride when I re-discovered black metal in the mid 00s... and it's actually because of that kinda shit that I initially gravitated toward tapes and "bedroom black metal". A home-dubbed tape with a xerox cover is unlikely to sound slick like that, you know? And I'd rather listen to a band that's just bad than a band that's slick.
Thanks dude! I know we come off as old codgers for engendering opinions like these, but different strokes for everyone. This topic has always chapped my ass.
brainsmasher Man, if there weren't old fucks like us around, who would the new collectors have to look up to?
Haha, yeah, we're role models.....
Could it be that Dimmu Borgir around that time got mainstream media attention and other bands were hoping to follow?
That “wall of sound”, especially with the synths got pretty popular back then. Don’t know if it’s Peter’s fault or just those band’s fault for wanting that sound.
I don't care what you have to say about Peter Tägtgren, and I don't think he even cares, he is one of the most unbelievably talented humans, it's easy for someone just to sit back lazy on his couch and judge the ones who are doing the real hard work, he talked about the natural progress of music, you can't ask bands and music to stand still in that spot that you like, it's just not natural, all that you can do is just chose what to listen to.
You got some interesting points in your vid and there's definitely some truth in that. I mean, there was definitely some trendy things going on at the end of the 90s and the Abyss studio was somehow part of that. Talking about unification of the sound, his brother Tommy Tägtgren should be even more blamed for that, as he ran the Abyss B studio, produced some bush league black and death metal bands that haven't had the budget for Peter A class sound and they ended up sounding more plastic, generic and same as the others.
On the other hand - i don't think the producer/sound engineer (Peter in this particular case) is solely to blame for things, I think it's also the bands themselves. When you're running a recording studio, especially focusing on some particular sub-genre(s), it's not actually in your powers to make them sound different, you'd have to change the equipment (not only the intruments, but also mics, compressors, etc) every session to make a difference, or changing the ways you are actually working, recording, making things going. Take some other producers and their studios. Fredrik Nordström's Fredman, Tue Madsen's Antfarm, Andy Sneap's Backstage Recording, more recently Jens Bogren and his Fascination Street Studios, etc, etc, they all tend to do the same. Same guitar sound, same drum sound in all the bands they are recording. You got some signature sound and the bands know what they'll got when they choose you.
I also somehow like the bands and their Abyss albums more than when they were recording in shitty underground (Immortal, Enslaved, Marduk, etc.) even though they got similar sound...
Fascinating video. I know little of metal past the 80s, so my opinion might not mean much. To my ears it sounds like those later records were recorded with the use of computers. Maybe 98 was when he got ProTools? The drums are individually miked and mixed up and down separately and put in stereo. Where as the first recordings you played sounded like a kit in a room. Also all the instruments are really compressed and mixed to fill up the whole spectrum. The older recordings have much more breathing room and a more realistic sound and character. Probably a mic to board to tape. The thing to take into consideration is that a band (for the most part) chooses a producer and that's as much a part of their art as the songwriting, album cover etc. A record is a time piece with the good and bad choices etched forever. A band could have fired the producer, told him to change the sound, walked away or remixed an album if they weren't happy. It might not be all on one guys shoulders. I enjoyed this video even if I'm not too qualified to comment. Cheers, Jon
Of course, if all the bands recorded in Peter's studio, they would sound the same. Imagine bands like Satyricon, Marduk, Dissection, Falkenbach, Emperor and so many others in their early stages, all recording in the same studio, with the same sound engineer, very likely that they would lose their characteristics. But one thing is a fact, Peter is a great musician, sound engineer and he understands a lot in the musical area and that contributed to the world of metal including Black Metal. But he didnt what you said. 🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘
Wow, you're right. No wonder I didn't get into those particular albums. Sounds like the same fukin' band! Sad..
Never got into hypocrisy in the first place. No offense. (respects). Just not my taste.
Thanks for sharing.
I can give you the fact that the mastering process may be alike in this productions, but Regarding the mixes they have lots of differents colours going on. anyway, it is still your opinion but you should keep it that way. i do prefer the metal sounding Awesome and killer and be able to hear all the little details on the music,not shitty productions and i thank peter for putting the bar Higher.
He did Enthrone? I did not know. I always remember not being crazy about it, and love my remastered version which isn’t something I normally say. And I also didn’t wanna give you credit cause I really like Peter. Was examining his insane vocals is how ai got here.
Thankfully Limbonic Art kept their fogy mixes
Don´t agree totally. Now I have been a musicians and played in both black metal and death metal bands, and every time, it up to the musicians to reveal how they want to sound like.
Just take for example the Setherial record "Nord" which were produced in 95 i think, in the Abyss studio. That album is unique and amazing in sound. Of course you can think a little of Dark Funeral in there, but i can remember when i heard this, i threw my Dark Funeral "the secrets of the black arts" away, because Setherial was so much better, so much more cold, again an opinion.:-)
Also Sorhin´s album "I Det Glimrande Mörkrets Djup" was well produced, and a favorite here.
But I agree that the black metal bands becomed more clear in sound and the melodies becomed more clear. Sorry for the spelling! Cheers from Denmark.
The second, and third sample what where the names of the bands and albums.
By the way, I'm in awe of your dislike count on this video. I think my record is 13.
right? HOW DARE HE HAVE AN HONEST OPINION?!?
Haha I may not listen to a lot of black metal, I stick to my old 5-10 favorite albums. But I always thought that was just the dark funeral sound, lol. But yeah you definitely have a point, the exampels really do sound the same!
Wings of the Antichrist sounds like Panzer Division Marduk. Agree with you on many of these. Is that Abyss studio sound. Good video!
Thanks a lot!
Since when Is having the same mix/recording quality the same as making the same record?
The music itself is different so I really don't get the complaining.
Sounds more like a personal opinion and taste in music.
Also the albums mentioned are killer BM records.
Metal is Money
Dimmu borgir ain’t black metal.
Do your research, grow up and stop crying.
I'm afraid they are, they're symphonic black metal, funny you should tell someone else to do their research when you clearly haven't done your own.
its like going to mc donalds and complaining the food is shit - Ofc the food is shit its mc donalds lol
Peter! You rules!
The broblem IS that when they record music they listen IT small rooms with headphones or not The gears and Place Make huge diffrents what you hear! And when your listen same music Day after Day and Many Times peace by peace 30secend there 30secend there..you become "deft" to it. Also your own music taste makes it's
These records are also INSANELY in your face. The production is like too bright often times. I remember feeling the same way. I’m also not a fan of the way those records sound. They give me a headache. It’s like too much push from everything. As if there isn’t any headroom it’s just everything cranked to 10
Its all subjective but ultimately its just a bands gimmick. That grimy, raw, rough sound is just a gimmick that maybe this guy prefers. Me personally im in love with the guitar and song writing that's all that matters to me.
All of the clips sound great to me.
sound the same*
It happened with death metal as well.Everybody went to Morrisound studios to work with Scott Burns because of his work with Death,Obituary,Deicide etc.Napalm Death recorded Harmony Corruption there and to this day i hate that album.It makes Napalm sound like every other cookie cutter DM/Grind band.The Morrisound just did not work for them in my opinion.Napalm learned their lesson and recorded their next album,Utopia banished with Colin Richardson in Wales.And hey presto they sounded like Napalm again.
I wholeheartedly agree except for Blodhemn and Nightwing, love those records. Also, that Ishtar record that I sent your way was also produced by Tagtgren and that one sounds amazing!!
Tried to see your point and I can not. First case is Marduk I love both albums Nightwing and Panzer Division and can tell them apart very easily they do not sound the same. Nightwing had a dark and somewhat murky sound compared to Panzer Div. to had a crisper and brighter sound on the production side which I feel did both albums justice. Second i do not see how you can just blame Peter, as bands went to Abyss to get a certain sound and production. it may sound plastic and not as good to you, but what about the bands that recorded there with Peter. I have never read bad presss from bands that have recorded there. So I guess my point is, you have to blame the bands just as much as producer and engineer. As bands have a say also in the sound they want and tell that to both producer and engineer.
Meh. You come off sounding like one of those guys who likes a band's first album that no one has heard and then when other people start listening to them, you hate every subsequent album, and not necessarily because they're bad albums. Definition of an elitist....
Did you ever stop to think that maybe bands came to Peter and the Abyss because they liked the sounds/tones he was achieving then? He was doing a TON of producing/recording then, was the hot thing in underground metal and everyone wanted to have him do their albums. Let's not forget that Peter (like most producers) doesn't work in the studio autonomously....recording is a collaborative effort and those bands certainly had input in how the final product sounded. Blaming Peter is short-sighted and presumptuous.
So to say Peter ruined black metal is a stretch and, frankly, comes off sounding like you're using his name in conjunction with a controversial tagline to get some page clicks. Kinda like how a lot of people used his name back then to market their albums....that sold really well BTW.
FWIW, I enjoy listening to music that has decent production.....and music with shitty production better be pretty goddam good music.
Yeah thats me in a nutshell.
brainsmasher I actually have a friend here who's really into production. He's mostly indifferent to music, but he can sit around and analyze the production all day long. It can be kinda frustrating though, when he's playing shit like Thriller and raving about how well made it is. By the way, you're a dick. I'm gonna start liking all your favorite bands just to spoil them for you.
Isn't the problem just loudness? compare vinyl and CD DR on Enthrone Darkness:
dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/24701
dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/26074
his intervention in the black metal was the commercialization of it
Because Black Metal is not supposed to be commercialized ?
There is a reason Peter's studio is so popular, because he's GOOD at what he does. He gave these bands a polished and defined sound to their music. If you are into the lo-fi shit, just listen to early Mayhem and Burzum. Every band's goal is to be famous, and every record company's goal is to make money. So you need talent in order to create a quality product. Sorry Bud, your arguments are elitist and people don't become successful by just criticizing everyone else; they become successful by going out there and doing something. So don't blame Peter for your own short-comings! Enough said.
OK, butthurt dickhead.
the title should probably be "how some guy slightly ruined some more popular black metal bands..."
there is so much diversity in the black metal genre that I think the stagnation of the late 90s and 2000s can be forgiven. All genres and forms of music have dips and dives in innovation and creativity and when that is lacking everyone uses the same few good examples and everything sounds too similar. And I think that is the issue, no matter how underground a scene is there will always be bandwagons to jump on and so many bands will jump on and forget the loss of creativity.
But overall I don't think that it really matters anymore as black metal has moved on and I hardly touch any of these bands. In fact I think searching through all the similar crap is fun and appeals to my sense of discovery and when you finally find a good or interesting band that is worth something.
Do your homework. Peter Tägtgren recorded way before 1995. But I must say, I always didn't liked his sound and his way of mixing. But I think it is narrow-minded of you to say he ruined black metal. You make a fool out of yourself. 1st. Define black metal, recorded by him. 2nd. Besides the BM bands recorded by him, there are a lot of band who stayed BM outside the bands Tägtgren. 3rd. You want to the BMbands that are recorded by him are ruined, is that just his blame or maybe did those bands cooperate in that? 4th. Maybe you just let the listener decide instead push you opinion through another person's throat. In that way you let people think and judge by themselves and let themselves learn how they like to listen to music. Your opinion is not interesting. Black Metal back in the early 90's wasn't meant for the masses anyway. Throw the cam away and start talking WITH real people. Cheers
Curiously enough, in a recent discussion about top producers that made their albums sound like shit, we mentioned Erik Rutan and Akkerhaugen Studios (Emperor, Zyklon, Myrkskog...), and I just came with the Abyss recordings from 1997 onward. Then a friend suggested me to check this video. I must say that I mostly agree with the point expressed here. While I still enjoy albums as "Slaughtersun", "At the Heart of the Winter" or "Blodhemn", it's true that they more or less sound equal and quite synthetic. However, among the early recordings I think that you've forgotten some interesting albums from 1995: "Vittra", "Nord..." and "Secrets of the Black Arts".
But what's even worse, if Peter Tagtren set a quite awful production standard in those late 90's albums, the "lowcost alternative", his brother Tommy, made the albums even unlistenable. Just check "Holy Target" (Raise Hell), "Hell Eternal" (Setherial), "The Apocalypse Manifesto" (Enthroned) or "In Nomine Sathanas" (Ragnarok), to name a few. Their sound is annoying at best!
Thanks for the comment and for watching. I wasn't sure if I should use Naglfar or not because Metal Archives only credits him as "engineer" on Vittra, where the other albums I featured he was listed as mixing, production, and / or recording.