I enjoyed your comments a great deal and agree with many of them regarding Mansfield Park. Like you, the first time I read it, I didn’t care for it so much. But years later and after several rereadings, I began to enjoy the story as well as I do most of Austen’s other works. The one thing I wanted to add to the issue regarding Henry Crawford is how it seemed to me that her refusal was a great influence in Henry’s appreciation for Fanny. I think that contributed a lot, as well as the idea that he fancied himself to be her “hero” if they married and he could show everyone how he lifted her up to the position that she should be. Was it more for Fanny, or more for the glorification of himself?
Excellent points. I definitely agree that her refusal only increased his interest in her. And I think you are on to something with his self-glorification. I can totally see that!
Excellent point about the contrast between Fanny (elder) and her marriage to Mr. Price and Anne and Captain Wentworth. The "what if?" is really interesting to think about!
What you said about Fanny being firm in her decision (even with the modern perception that women didn't have any agency historically speaking) - YES YES YES!!!
I think we suffer under many misconceptions about what life was really like for women in previous centuries. But since I didn't actually live then, I don't know that for sure. 😆Maybe when I get to heaven and can chat with my forebears, I'll get a better idea. 😆
No, I have to agree that women didn't have (much) agency in history--at least the choices were limited and disagreeable according to society. So yes, it would have been more practical a decision for Fanny to marry Henry (and thus maybe more realistic). That being said, I totally agree that it is way more feminist to have a character like Fanny who refuses to give in to pressure, especially considering she is shy and poor. She knows her own mind. She has integrity, which is difficult for modern readers to understand, because it's hard to find real world examples of it. Now Fanny never had to really suffer as a consequence of her decision (as her mother did), for she got the guy she wanted in the end, and he is kind and from a "good" family. Perhaps her mother's story is more realistic! However, I think Jane Austen wanted to portray life working out for her heroines as she wanted it to be, with a happy ending.
You inspire me to think deeper about classic literature. You see a lot of deeper themes and elements that I hadn't noticed! I enjoyed reading this with you!
I am glad to find others who enjoyed Mansfield Park like I did! Even if it did take you a second reading to get there 😉LOL! I've always thought people underrated Fanny. Your analysis of the theme as being how people respond to virtue is really interesting, and I can see how that works in Mansfield Park. It will be interesting to reread the book with that idea in mind.* I have always thought the theme was about how people are often wrong in their assumptions about others; this is an idea that certainly applies not only to this book but also to all of Austen's other works. Fanny is a remarkable heroine (in part) because she is one of the only, perhaps THE only, character who accurately and consistently assesses others. If I reword my theme slightly as how people recognize or fail to recognize virtue, it becomes a close sister to your theme. ❤ *You had me thinking about how Willoughby responded to Marianne, specifically how he showed up when she was near death and let on to Eleanor that he valued Marianne more than his fiancee. I can't recall if he said it was due to her virtue exactly, but I can't help but feel her purity of passion, innocence, and goodness must've been more attractive to him than his fiancee's manipulativeness.
Glad you enjoyed it. Emma going to read Jane Austen again soon. She can take Pride in how good a writer she is and I say that without Prejudice. In fact, it is good Sense to read such writing of great Sensitivity and you will not need much Persuasion to read more. Whether you live in the south or the North Anger will not Abbey felt. Either Lady or Mans in Park or Field or beach of Sand a Ton of enjoyment will be had. Oh and something about Susan!
I love your analysis of Fannie! Overall, as always, I love when you give us a Deep Dive video and I truly appreciate and enjoy your thoughtful analysis.
💙 That's for making it to the end...😂 Don't want anyone starting rumors... Lol What a great take on this... It's nothing I would read but I will say you did such a great job I don't feel like ai have to now... Well done and seriously who doesn't love it when two people finally get together at the end like they should have all along. 😂
I don't know, I think you would appreciate Austen! But maybe don't start with Mansfield Park. I think you might like Pride & Prejudice. And with Austen, all the people who should get together, do! 😆
I have always liked Fanny Price, and she has always been in my top tree, Austen heroines. The marrying Henry argument is diabolical even in modern standards. Can we normalize staying away from guys that give so many red flags. She saw how he acted with her cousins and used her sister to manipulate her to like him. If she married him and if Henry had had an affair, she could do nothing since only husbands could ask for divorce.
I one hundred percent agree! Just because a guy is handsome, charming, and rich, does not mean he is marriage material. You are absolutely right that then she would have been completely stuck with a jerk for life.
I can't wait to reread Mansfield Park!! Loved this review!! You have such an awesome way of delving into a book, always love your reviews. I thought Mansfield Park was good when I read it several years ago, but didn't love it. I think if I were to reread it now I would love it! That's the hope.
Probably! I think I'm not the only one who loved it on the re-read. I also think it requires a little more maturity and life experience in truly understanding Fanny, even though she's a young heroine.
I agree that Fanny never changes, she is steadfast! I personally think Anne from AOGG does experience some changes. The maturity aspect is obvious but also some of her thoughts and feelings and treatment of those around her - such as Gilbert, Rachel Lynde..etc. Maybe that is due to the fact that we see more of her "growing-up" years on page.
Yeah, I think mostly in the book AofGG she doesn't change. The rest of the series she does grow and mature as a person, particularly in regards to Gilbert.
I would love to see a video of you comparing the 6 main Austen protagonists, going through their personalities, strengths and "weaknesses," etc. You're so good at digging deep into a character!! Also, I think we have the exact same ranking for Austen's main novels! Not surprised with our similar tastes! I do need to reread Mansfield Park and Sense and Sensibility but as of now, my ranking is the same.
Lol! I don't think Mansfield can represent heaven, considering the inhabitants (other than Fanny)! 😂😂😂😂 Ooh, good comparison with Anne of Green Gables! Sir Thomas is one of Austen's better fathers. Unpopular opinion, I know, but he actually does some parenting, which already puts him pretty high on the list. 😂😂😂 I had not thought of that comparison with Persuasion, but you're totally right! Anne Elliott even has two sisters like Mrs. Price! Mrs. Norris is the worst! I love the scene where Fanny is going to see the Crawfords, and Mrs. Norris says that she shouldn't expect the carriage to be called for her, and, at that moment, Sir Thomas walks past and asks what time he should send the carriage for her. 😂😂😂 Feminists don't read this book clearly and well enough to see how strong Fanny is. I also think part of it is that she's one of the quiet leads. We don't value quiet, gentle, feminine girls in fiction anymore as a culture. Edmund's fixation on Mary drives me crazy, and I just can't deal with him because of it. He's my second least favorite Austen male lead. Your discussion of virtue being the presence of righteousness reminds me of the C. S. Lewis quote about how men now would say Unselfishness is the greatest virtue, whereas men in the past would have said Love, i.e. the switching of having a positive attribute with the lack of a negative one. Mary is awful, imo. That scene where she blames Fanny for Maria and Henry eloping? 😡😡😡😡😡 Agreed about them all being five stars, as well as your top three! I've actually got a video ranking lots of things about Austen. It's older, filmed before I started my channel, but I stand by my opinions!😂😂😂 Yes, her wit is so good!❤❤❤
I think that you and I should meet for coffee and geek out over Austen! I cannot adequately express how much I love this comment and your thoughts. 💖💖💖 Yes, MP definitely does not equal Heaven. Maybe the kingdom of God on earth? the church? Maybe? I don't know; I know the setting is important but I'm not sure it's so specifically metaphorical. Only Austen knows! Yes, in the second half of the book, Mrs. Norris is always getting inadvertently (and occasionally intentionally) put in her place by Sir Thomas. I love it! She needs it so badly! I agree about feminism and this book. In my opinion, Fanny is the ideal of a strong woman. But it seems to me that most modern feminist's idea of a strong woman is that she be all the things they hate about men (demanding, forceful, entitled). 🙄 I agree that Edmund is so annoyingly distracted by Mary, but at the same time, I've seen it happen in real life, so it's very true to reality. He's so good at his core, though, and he's so attentive to Fanny when no one else even sees her. That's what I love most about him. Yes, Mary is more bad than good, that's for sure. But still, she reaches out to Fanny when she is all alone, and she also is very perceptive of people's feelings and motives (even when hers are suspect). I feel like Edmund is right, that if she had been nurtured differently, she would have turned out differently.
I think so many of us first read Mansfield Park (and, for me, Emma) without enjoying it. Then we come back because there are so few books by Austen available and then find that we love it after all. The poor relative, living on the goodwill of the relatives is actually a pretty common theme for Austen; Sense and Sensibility, Persuasion and Emma all feature it strongly. In Persuasion, Anne Elliot is talked out of a marriage for love, solely based on the vanity and self importance of her father, sister and mothers friend however: Austen is very clear about that. We are never given the notion that the three sisters in Mansfield Park felt strongly about their husbands or indeed about anything else. Great video, there is always so much to discuss with any of Austen's work and this was a thoroughly interesting interpretation. *heart emoji* I don't know how to do that stuff.
You are right about the poor relative - probably because Jane was a poor(er) relative herself, and lived off the goodwill of one of her brothers for a large part of her adult life. I agree that vanity and rank were bigger issues in Persuasion regarding Anne's engagement to Captain Wentworth. But I do think that tied up in that - mostly because it was always tied up in that issue in those days - was the issue of income. At the level he was when he initially proposed, Wentworth had no income and no guarantee of future income. Now when he returned with a military rank and a fortune, they still were too vain and self-important to approve of him for Anne, but at least this time, they could make no genuine objection because, obviously, he was well situated at that point even if he was not a landed gentleman. Anyway, I don't think it's a direct connection - but there is a definite parallel between the two situations, like Austen was exploring multiple facets of one issue (possibly).
@@insearchofwonder A thing Austen did really, REALLY well was to look at a thing (such as the question of marring a navel man) rotate it right around and examine it from many different angles. So I agree with the parallels you outline and I had not seen them before.
And, because I can't leave Austen alone, I will suggest another parallel; between the worldly Crawfords in MP and Lady Susan. I feel that is a too often forgotten Austen book and they both have perspectives on materialistic members of society and their downfalls.
@@OmnivorousReader ahh! I am going to read Lady Susan soon. I know I've read it, but I don't remember much about it. But from what I remember about it, I think you are right!
So I'd love to know what you all think--why was Edmund so drawn to Mary Crawford? I was never able to understand it. He never struck me as shallow enough to simply fall for a pretty face.
My personal opinion is that he was just your average dumb guy. I see it in real life all the time. It's not that they are shallow - it's more that they think the best of the girl in question, and explain away any red flags that they get. Girls do the same thing with bad guys.
Fanny was nothing like a governess. Governesses were treated really badly. They had to eat their meals in the school room and were not allowed to interact with the rest of the family.They did not sit in the family palour or talk to the family except the Mother and the children. They could be dismissed at any time.
You may have taken my comment more literally than intended. I was just drawing a general comparison between Fanny's position in the Mansfield Park household and a governess's position. Governesses had a unique and very lonely position within the household where they were neither "upstairs" nor "downstairs". Sometimes they did spend time with the family, depending on the situation and the family culture. But they were never part of the family, always a bit separate in rank and status. Fanny was very much like that - being a ward, she was not (until much later in the book) considered part of the family, even though she sat with them and ate with them. She was very much other and separate. But neither was she a servant. Her placement within the family was nebulous and unsettled.
@@insearchofwonder - hmmm. She was more like a paid companion, but she as allowed to paly with Maria and Julia as a child and she had a strong bond with Edmund. He was her best friend. She was definately the "poor relation" but still had a secure position and people to talk to.
@@TheMemoryPolice I agree about the companion aspect but I disagree that her position was secure, as evidence by the fact that her uncle sent her away when she refused what was, to him, an advantageous proposal. Until the end of the story, her position is entirely at the whim of the family. My whole point is that she is never seen as their equal. Even a paid companion was typically of the same rank of class, just in need of a home. Because of her father, she had no rank or standing. Anyway, the bottom line is this: her standing within the household was insecure because of her rank and lack of standing within the family. Edmund was the only one, until the end, who did not keep her at arms' length. I have only seen the eighties version, which was very true to the story but had some pretty awful videography!
While I do think there is historical accuracy to your statement, I must point out that Austen represented one governess quite differently. In Emma, Mrs. Weston nee Taylor was certainly treated as a beloved member of the family.
being a controversial character doesn¨t mean being an interesting character. Or person. There are a lot of such "exciting" characters in world literature and in real life and they do not contribute with something positive and real. They are totally focused on their own pleasures and gains and refuse to accept other peoples interests and feelings. This part of your analysis was really naive och laughable. Some very deep observations about Fanny and her famil-ies though
I admit I saw the 1999 movie first, but when I read it, I liked it and I love Fanny. It was difficult for me to explain why, however. I get that people may find her too interior and passive, and since specific mores are different now, kind of a goody-two-shoes. It's hard to understand a novel nowadays where "impropriety" at a play is such a big deal, except in really conservative communities. I think you have to look at it more from the perspective of that time, rather than now. What was considered good THEN. Either that, or it needs a translation, which the movie did pretty well, despite flaws. What is it that's so good about Fanny, really? Is it because she is modest? Is it because she is quiet? Or is it because she has good judgement and integrity? I think that is the point. Despite being told all her life she is nothing, she stands up for what she thinks is right and is actually pretty brave. I think if you focus on that aspect, you understand why she is the heroine to root for. Not only does she love Edmund, but she knows Henry cannot be "saved"--he improves, but he'll probably never really change and will remain inconstant (which time reveals to be true). Ironically, this actually is a modern idea (although women persist in believing it, for it is romantic!) By the way, those that say she should have married Henry Crawford probably say that because they think he is more charming than Edmund, who comes off as a bit of a goody-two shoes as well. However, to be genuinely kind and moral--that is, loving, is rare even in that society of proper manners.
I get why Fanny is considered a goody two-shoes, but I actually have a lot of respect for her. Honestly, on this read, she didn't come across that way to me. She just seemed like a strong but gentle person - the kind of girl I would want to be! Bad boys can be "saved"... but definitely not by girls who love them. As much as that trope might be fun to read on occasion, it's risky in real life and I one hundred percent would not recommend! Fanny made the right choice. Thanks for your thoughts and for watching!
I enjoyed your comments a great deal and agree with many of them regarding Mansfield Park. Like you, the first time I read it, I didn’t care for it so much. But years later and after several rereadings, I began to enjoy the story as well as I do most of Austen’s other works. The one thing I wanted to add to the issue regarding Henry Crawford is how it seemed to me that her refusal was a great influence in Henry’s appreciation for Fanny. I think that contributed a lot, as well as the idea that he fancied himself to be her “hero” if they married and he could show everyone how he lifted her up to the position that she should be. Was it more for Fanny, or more for the glorification of himself?
Excellent points. I definitely agree that her refusal only increased his interest in her. And I think you are on to something with his self-glorification. I can totally see that!
I love your take on this. I have heard a lot of people say Fanny was weak, but I have always felt like there was so much more to her than that.
Oh and also 💛
I totally agree! And thanks for watching!
Excellent point about the contrast between Fanny (elder) and her marriage to Mr. Price and Anne and Captain Wentworth. The "what if?" is really interesting to think about!
Isn't it? It definitely seems to be something Austen thought of. Given that several of her brothers were sailors, that makes sense.
What you said about Fanny being firm in her decision (even with the modern perception that women didn't have any agency historically speaking) - YES YES YES!!!
I think we suffer under many misconceptions about what life was really like for women in previous centuries. But since I didn't actually live then, I don't know that for sure. 😆Maybe when I get to heaven and can chat with my forebears, I'll get a better idea. 😆
No, I have to agree that women didn't have (much) agency in history--at least the choices were limited and disagreeable according to society. So yes, it would have been more practical a decision for Fanny to marry Henry (and thus maybe more realistic). That being said, I totally agree that it is way more feminist to have a character like Fanny who refuses to give in to pressure, especially considering she is shy and poor. She knows her own mind. She has integrity, which is difficult for modern readers to understand, because it's hard to find real world examples of it.
Now Fanny never had to really suffer as a consequence of her decision (as her mother did), for she got the guy she wanted in the end, and he is kind and from a "good" family. Perhaps her mother's story is more realistic! However, I think Jane Austen wanted to portray life working out for her heroines as she wanted it to be, with a happy ending.
You inspire me to think deeper about classic literature. You see a lot of deeper themes and elements that I hadn't noticed! I enjoyed reading this with you!
Aw thank you! I am always growing as a reader, with the help of people smarter than I am. 😆
I am glad to find others who enjoyed Mansfield Park like I did! Even if it did take you a second reading to get there 😉LOL! I've always thought people underrated Fanny. Your analysis of the theme as being how people respond to virtue is really interesting, and I can see how that works in Mansfield Park. It will be interesting to reread the book with that idea in mind.* I have always thought the theme was about how people are often wrong in their assumptions about others; this is an idea that certainly applies not only to this book but also to all of Austen's other works. Fanny is a remarkable heroine (in part) because she is one of the only, perhaps THE only, character who accurately and consistently assesses others. If I reword my theme slightly as how people recognize or fail to recognize virtue, it becomes a close sister to your theme. ❤
*You had me thinking about how Willoughby responded to Marianne, specifically how he showed up when she was near death and let on to Eleanor that he valued Marianne more than his fiancee. I can't recall if he said it was due to her virtue exactly, but I can't help but feel her purity of passion, innocence, and goodness must've been more attractive to him than his fiancee's manipulativeness.
Good connection re: Willoughby and Marianne!
Glad you enjoyed it. Emma going to read Jane Austen again soon. She can take Pride in how good a writer she is and I say that without Prejudice. In fact, it is good Sense to read such writing of great Sensitivity and you will not need much Persuasion to read more. Whether you live in the south or the North Anger will not Abbey felt. Either Lady or Mans in Park or Field or beach of Sand a Ton of enjoyment will be had. Oh and something about Susan!
Now that is the literary version of dad jokes right there! Epic!!!
I love your analysis of Fannie! Overall, as always, I love when you give us a Deep Dive video and I truly appreciate and enjoy your thoughtful analysis.
Thank you so much!
I haven't read this one yet so i came to show support but will watch it fully once I read Mansfield Park ❤
Aww thanks! I would love to know your thoughts once you've read it!
💙 That's for making it to the end...😂 Don't want anyone starting rumors... Lol
What a great take on this... It's nothing I would read but I will say you did such a great job I don't feel like ai have to now... Well done and seriously who doesn't love it when two people finally get together at the end like they should have all along. 😂
I don't know, I think you would appreciate Austen! But maybe don't start with Mansfield Park. I think you might like Pride & Prejudice. And with Austen, all the people who should get together, do! 😆
@@insearchofwonder Oh well in that case maybe I would read that one. :)
I have always liked Fanny Price, and she has always been in my top tree, Austen heroines. The marrying Henry argument is diabolical even in modern standards. Can we normalize staying away from guys that give so many red flags. She saw how he acted with her cousins and used her sister to manipulate her to like him. If she married him and if Henry had had an affair, she could do nothing since only husbands could ask for divorce.
I one hundred percent agree! Just because a guy is handsome, charming, and rich, does not mean he is marriage material. You are absolutely right that then she would have been completely stuck with a jerk for life.
I can't wait to reread Mansfield Park!! Loved this review!! You have such an awesome way of delving into a book, always love your reviews. I thought Mansfield Park was good when I read it several years ago, but didn't love it. I think if I were to reread it now I would love it! That's the hope.
Probably! I think I'm not the only one who loved it on the re-read. I also think it requires a little more maturity and life experience in truly understanding Fanny, even though she's a young heroine.
I agree that Fanny never changes, she is steadfast! I personally think Anne from AOGG does experience some changes. The maturity aspect is obvious but also some of her thoughts and feelings and treatment of those around her - such as Gilbert, Rachel Lynde..etc. Maybe that is due to the fact that we see more of her "growing-up" years on page.
Yeah, I think mostly in the book AofGG she doesn't change. The rest of the series she does grow and mature as a person, particularly in regards to Gilbert.
I would love to see a video of you comparing the 6 main Austen protagonists, going through their personalities, strengths and "weaknesses," etc. You're so good at digging deep into a character!! Also, I think we have the exact same ranking for Austen's main novels! Not surprised with our similar tastes! I do need to reread Mansfield Park and Sense and Sensibility but as of now, my ranking is the same.
Oooohhhh that would be fun! And that's pretty amazing to have the same Austen ranking - great minds think alike! 😉
Lol! I don't think Mansfield can represent heaven, considering the inhabitants (other than Fanny)! 😂😂😂😂
Ooh, good comparison with Anne of Green Gables!
Sir Thomas is one of Austen's better fathers. Unpopular opinion, I know, but he actually does some parenting, which already puts him pretty high on the list. 😂😂😂
I had not thought of that comparison with Persuasion, but you're totally right! Anne Elliott even has two sisters like Mrs. Price!
Mrs. Norris is the worst!
I love the scene where Fanny is going to see the Crawfords, and Mrs. Norris says that she shouldn't expect the carriage to be called for her, and, at that moment, Sir Thomas walks past and asks what time he should send the carriage for her. 😂😂😂
Feminists don't read this book clearly and well enough to see how strong Fanny is. I also think part of it is that she's one of the quiet leads. We don't value quiet, gentle, feminine girls in fiction anymore as a culture.
Edmund's fixation on Mary drives me crazy, and I just can't deal with him because of it. He's my second least favorite Austen male lead.
Your discussion of virtue being the presence of righteousness reminds me of the C. S. Lewis quote about how men now would say Unselfishness is the greatest virtue, whereas men in the past would have said Love, i.e. the switching of having a positive attribute with the lack of a negative one.
Mary is awful, imo. That scene where she blames Fanny for Maria and Henry eloping? 😡😡😡😡😡
Agreed about them all being five stars, as well as your top three! I've actually got a video ranking lots of things about Austen. It's older, filmed before I started my channel, but I stand by my opinions!😂😂😂
Yes, her wit is so good!❤❤❤
I think that you and I should meet for coffee and geek out over Austen! I cannot adequately express how much I love this comment and your thoughts. 💖💖💖
Yes, MP definitely does not equal Heaven. Maybe the kingdom of God on earth? the church? Maybe? I don't know; I know the setting is important but I'm not sure it's so specifically metaphorical. Only Austen knows!
Yes, in the second half of the book, Mrs. Norris is always getting inadvertently (and occasionally intentionally) put in her place by Sir Thomas. I love it! She needs it so badly!
I agree about feminism and this book. In my opinion, Fanny is the ideal of a strong woman. But it seems to me that most modern feminist's idea of a strong woman is that she be all the things they hate about men (demanding, forceful, entitled). 🙄
I agree that Edmund is so annoyingly distracted by Mary, but at the same time, I've seen it happen in real life, so it's very true to reality. He's so good at his core, though, and he's so attentive to Fanny when no one else even sees her. That's what I love most about him.
Yes, Mary is more bad than good, that's for sure. But still, she reaches out to Fanny when she is all alone, and she also is very perceptive of people's feelings and motives (even when hers are suspect). I feel like Edmund is right, that if she had been nurtured differently, she would have turned out differently.
@@insearchofwonder Sounds like fun! Except I don't like coffee, so can I swap mine out for a hot chocolate? 😂😂😂😂
@@MorgansEndlessBookshelf Absolutely!
Love it! 🥰 Mansfield isn’t my favorite Austin but it is middle (all of them are solid favorites- with the exception of Lady Susan).
I agree about MP, but it's been ages since I read Lady Susan so I need to read it to have an honest opinion.
I think so many of us first read Mansfield Park (and, for me, Emma) without enjoying it. Then we come back because there are so few books by Austen available and then find that we love it after all.
The poor relative, living on the goodwill of the relatives is actually a pretty common theme for Austen; Sense and Sensibility, Persuasion and Emma all feature it strongly.
In Persuasion, Anne Elliot is talked out of a marriage for love, solely based on the vanity and self importance of her father, sister and mothers friend however: Austen is very clear about that. We are never given the notion that the three sisters in Mansfield Park felt strongly about their husbands or indeed about anything else.
Great video, there is always so much to discuss with any of Austen's work and this was a thoroughly interesting interpretation. *heart emoji* I don't know how to do that stuff.
You are right about the poor relative - probably because Jane was a poor(er) relative herself, and lived off the goodwill of one of her brothers for a large part of her adult life.
I agree that vanity and rank were bigger issues in Persuasion regarding Anne's engagement to Captain Wentworth. But I do think that tied up in that - mostly because it was always tied up in that issue in those days - was the issue of income. At the level he was when he initially proposed, Wentworth had no income and no guarantee of future income. Now when he returned with a military rank and a fortune, they still were too vain and self-important to approve of him for Anne, but at least this time, they could make no genuine objection because, obviously, he was well situated at that point even if he was not a landed gentleman. Anyway, I don't think it's a direct connection - but there is a definite parallel between the two situations, like Austen was exploring multiple facets of one issue (possibly).
@@insearchofwonder A thing Austen did really, REALLY well was to look at a thing (such as the question of marring a navel man) rotate it right around and examine it from many different angles. So I agree with the parallels you outline and I had not seen them before.
And, because I can't leave Austen alone, I will suggest another parallel; between the worldly Crawfords in MP and Lady Susan. I feel that is a too often forgotten Austen book and they both have perspectives on materialistic members of society and their downfalls.
@@OmnivorousReader ahh! I am going to read Lady Susan soon. I know I've read it, but I don't remember much about it. But from what I remember about it, I think you are right!
@@insearchofwonder Lady Susan was one I did not like first time I read it. But it has grown on me and now it is a favourite. Hope you like it!
"She is lazy as all get out" 🤣🤣
LOL I am turning into my mom. That's totally a mom saying.
Surely the word "indolent" was made with her in mind!
I like your coffee cup ☺
Thank you! 💖
So I'd love to know what you all think--why was Edmund so drawn to Mary Crawford? I was never able to understand it. He never struck me as shallow enough to simply fall for a pretty face.
My personal opinion is that he was just your average dumb guy. I see it in real life all the time. It's not that they are shallow - it's more that they think the best of the girl in question, and explain away any red flags that they get. Girls do the same thing with bad guys.
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Thanks for watching!
Fanny was nothing like a governess. Governesses were treated really badly. They had to eat their meals in the school room and were not allowed to interact with the rest of the family.They did not sit in the family palour or talk to the family except the Mother and the children. They could be dismissed at any time.
You may have taken my comment more literally than intended. I was just drawing a general comparison between Fanny's position in the Mansfield Park household and a governess's position. Governesses had a unique and very lonely position within the household where they were neither "upstairs" nor "downstairs". Sometimes they did spend time with the family, depending on the situation and the family culture. But they were never part of the family, always a bit separate in rank and status. Fanny was very much like that - being a ward, she was not (until much later in the book) considered part of the family, even though she sat with them and ate with them. She was very much other and separate. But neither was she a servant. Her placement within the family was nebulous and unsettled.
@@insearchofwonder - hmmm. She was more like a paid companion, but she as allowed to paly with Maria and Julia as a child and she had a strong bond with Edmund. He was her best friend. She was definately the "poor relation" but still had a secure position and people to talk to.
@@insearchofwonder - btw have you watched the movies? I was was very diappointed by both the 1999 one and the 2007 one.
@@TheMemoryPolice I agree about the companion aspect but I disagree that her position was secure, as evidence by the fact that her uncle sent her away when she refused what was, to him, an advantageous proposal. Until the end of the story, her position is entirely at the whim of the family. My whole point is that she is never seen as their equal. Even a paid companion was typically of the same rank of class, just in need of a home. Because of her father, she had no rank or standing. Anyway, the bottom line is this: her standing within the household was insecure because of her rank and lack of standing within the family. Edmund was the only one, until the end, who did not keep her at arms' length.
I have only seen the eighties version, which was very true to the story but had some pretty awful videography!
While I do think there is historical accuracy to your statement, I must point out that Austen represented one governess quite differently. In Emma, Mrs. Weston nee Taylor was certainly treated as a beloved member of the family.
being a controversial character doesn¨t mean being an interesting character. Or person. There are a lot of such "exciting" characters in world literature and in real life and they do not contribute with something positive and real. They are totally focused on their own pleasures and gains and refuse to accept other peoples interests and feelings. This part of your analysis was really naive och laughable. Some very deep observations about Fanny and her famil-ies though
I admit I saw the 1999 movie first, but when I read it, I liked it and I love Fanny. It was difficult for me to explain why, however. I get that people may find her too interior and passive, and since specific mores are different now, kind of a goody-two-shoes. It's hard to understand a novel nowadays where "impropriety" at a play is such a big deal, except in really conservative communities. I think you have to look at it more from the perspective of that time, rather than now. What was considered good THEN. Either that, or it needs a translation, which the movie did pretty well, despite flaws. What is it that's so good about Fanny, really? Is it because she is modest? Is it because she is quiet? Or is it because she has good judgement and integrity? I think that is the point. Despite being told all her life she is nothing, she stands up for what she thinks is right and is actually pretty brave. I think if you focus on that aspect, you understand why she is the heroine to root for. Not only does she love Edmund, but she knows Henry cannot be "saved"--he improves, but he'll probably never really change and will remain inconstant (which time reveals to be true). Ironically, this actually is a modern idea (although women persist in believing it, for it is romantic!)
By the way, those that say she should have married Henry Crawford probably say that because they think he is more charming than Edmund, who comes off as a bit of a goody-two shoes as well. However, to be genuinely kind and moral--that is, loving, is rare even in that society of proper manners.
I get why Fanny is considered a goody two-shoes, but I actually have a lot of respect for her. Honestly, on this read, she didn't come across that way to me. She just seemed like a strong but gentle person - the kind of girl I would want to be! Bad boys can be "saved"... but definitely not by girls who love them. As much as that trope might be fun to read on occasion, it's risky in real life and I one hundred percent would not recommend! Fanny made the right choice. Thanks for your thoughts and for watching!
@@insearchofwonder Oh I would agree also. Thanks for your review!
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Thanks for watching to the end! It was a long one!