Loft conversion stairs - avoid this pitfall
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ม.ค. 2023
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Where to place your loft conversion stairs to make maximum use of space and to avoid headroom problems.
See the other videos in the series on how to convert a loft in the UK, step by step: • DIY loft conversion st...
Where to place a spiral staircase: • Spiral staircase headr...
How to remove a roof purlin: • How to remove a roof p...
👷♂️Get my advice on your loft conversion geni.us/loftsurvey
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On this channel I give a structural engineer's view on loft conversions, home renovations and extensions.
Have a stress free home renovation, extension or conversion by subscribing to the channel now: th-cam.com/users/RobindeJongh...
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If you have a question you can reach me below in the comments section, or for a small donation get your specific questions answered on the following link:
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*Disclaimer:*
I'm a chartered civil engineer with a specialism in structural engineering. This video is for entertainment and none of the things I say or teach in my videos should be construed as 'advice'. You should always have your designs checked by a competent, experienced, chartered civil/structural engineer. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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I have no intention to undertake a loft conversion but watched the whole video and found it very interesting, particularly thr use of sketchup
I've never seen sketchup look like that - how do I make that style happen?
I dont even have a house, let alone make a loft conversion. But im still going to watch this out of curiosity.
😂 far to much time on your hands
Ditto
Me too! I just was so interested in the logistics because attic spaces are so interesting!
Looking at undertaking a loft conversion and the couple of videos of yours that I have just watched are ‘brilliantly useful’. Please keep producing them, they are priceless. Thank you
If people would recognise how much time it takes to make a good model like this, and reading up on the law and contruction codes to make solutions like this.
Good video I have been a builder for over 30 years still find it interesting Thanks Danny
The expertise shared in these videos is very valuable and much appreciated!
Thanks Robin for your excellent explanation of a loft space conversion and creative use of Sketchup to make visualising the process easy.
Ah Robin, you are a godsend. Concise, exactly what folk need to know. I am looking to put stairs into my loft, but do not want to convert the loft just yet. I am guessing that at least some of the joists, which will presumably "hold" the top of the stairs will need to be reinforced? I watched another video of yours, explaining how to add wooden floor joists, rather than steel, making it FAR cheaper. And your videos are TOP DRAW!!!
Currently building a new house on an end of a terrace row. The loft floor to the ridge is under 2m on the existing nextdoor, so therefore had to lower the floors on each level by 150mm in the new build to achieve a good head height in the loft.
Very clear computer graphics. Thank you. got this project myself.
Everyday is a lesson. Thank you for this great video. 👏
Thank you Robin. Your videos are fascinating and give good indicators to problem solving. Ideas that most of us wouldn't perhaps think of.
subscribed at first sight. Hard to find this level of information available freely! Thank you so much! :)
Welcome aboard!
Excellent. Thank you for sharing your expertise.
Some great advice and pitfall highlighting here.
Absolutely incredible video. Thank you
This is exactly what I needed. Tkanks!
good explanation and a nice SketchUp model. Thank you!
Love these,keep it good work
Yes, very well explained 👍🔨📐
Absolutely wonderful video… sketch up is a neat program
So useful!! Thank you.
Great vid and nice model!
I’m shopping an old home right now where you can see plain as day the same considerations taken to make habitable space access into the old attic. There is an oddly shallow dormer on the rear roof that surrounds just the attic staircase, to add code-compliant headroom when reaching and exiting the top of the stairs. No windows in the dormer walls, just a couple of (leaking) skylights above.
Great use of sketchup
Interesting video, I'm looking to do something similar to this.
Excellent analysis and 3d skills thanks
Thanks Jake 👍
Wow, thank you!
Good presentation, however in my experience winders are a substandard solution as they are very dangerous especially as one steps toward the pivot of the winders. Also in many instances the authorities require a minimum tread width of winders of 200mm to address the danger of slipping, so the benefit versus the danger equation is reduced from what is shown here. My suggestion is to look at a full size landing top and bottom one step up at the bottom and one step down at the top then reorganise the pitch of the upper stairway to suit a straight run. In my experience a small difference in rise and going in the upper stairway over winders that will be consentable will not be noticeable in the finished job, the stairway will be considerably safer, and the stairway cost will be less as winders tend to be more complicated to build.
Cheers. Philip 🇳🇿
Nice use of SketchUp for live demonstration.
Interesting. The things you don't think about. Thank goodness for professionals.
Looking at the view at 1:09 where you can see the required headroom I don't understand why you'd want a loft conversion as you hardly gain any space. You'd basically end up with a one meter wide corridor. One possibility would be to put in a very wide dormer, which you then of course could also have above the new staircase, eliminating any problem you'd have with the required headroom.
In other scenarios a double (U-bend) winder mid height can also be used. Lots of adventures with winder possibilities!
I wish I had you here to discuss reworking a staircase to get more room at a front door for better wheelchair maneuverability.
Thankyou very informative I am doing a loft conversion soon 😅😅 so binge watching loft conversion videos 😊 #corbygirl 🙌
Nice sketchup skills.
The first set of stairs I ever cut had this exact problem. Wish I had this video available at the time so I didn’t have to spend half a day figuring it out
Thanks Bob - it's great to hear that this video is striking a chord!
I am putting a winder top & bottom of mine to solve that problem as you suggested, I have to get it right as I'm 6'6" tall😁 stairbox is a good site to design your stairs & see a 3D visualization
Thanks Lester, I'll take a look at stairbox 👍
Creative!
Hi robin, I have a few questions,
I have a conundrum, our builder is doing the structural work, ie putting in the I beams and structural opening for the stairs( 2 I beams on one side holding the chimney and another on other side ) the builder wants to take off the roof and the old roof beams off. Put new wider ones in and put the old roof tiles etc back on. Is this the best option or would it be better to add new beams attached to old ones?
Hello, what are your views on this.existing ceiling is 2 X 4. I need 2 X 8 for span. I want to adhere a 2 X 4 onto the existing 2 X 4 screw then together vertically and add nail plates to either side making it a 8 X 4. Reasons are to maintain as much height as possible. Comment would-be appreciated. David
Cool video . I personally would have had the winder at the top and bottom . Or better yet had a half staircase ,landing , return on itself half staircase .
Hi Robyn watched your video on engineered trusses for my bungalow do i need steel beams instead of concrete lintels for a 1800mm window on my load bearing wall thanks
Nice walk though, what software are you using? I love the flexibility it offers.
Hi, can u do a video for semi-detached house loft conversion, question is where to stairs?
Hey, What CAD software do you use? Wonderful illustrations!
The software used to illustrate the points in this video looks really nice. What is it called?
Hello Robin, I am thrilled by the inforamtion and quality of your videos. They are helping me a lot for my upcoming home remodeling project. What software are you using in this video, I am curious. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the compliment! The software is here geni.us/sketchup
What is the software you use here? It's excellent!
Excellent explanatory. An excellent 'go-to' for referring to clients to watch while you build the stringers.
SketchUp
Hi Robin, I am looking for a solution to introduce the staircase to my loft, do you provide this type of service? Many thanks
I like corkscrew soffets.
60 degrees inside, 26 degrees outside.
Steel studs are a godsend for twisting planes
Thanks George. Great advice!
What program is this it's amazing
Good video. At 1:50 ish, you don't have to have 400mm to a door, as long as the swing is away from the stair landing. Another option for headroom if you're struggling is of course a dormer, although aesthetics have to be considered.
Thank you for highlighting this, I've been trying to Google if that would be OK, as long as the door swings inwards. I was on the stairbox for hours trying to make it work another way.
Quite often in 1930s houses the loft stairs above the existing stairs cut across an existing landing window
Which program are you using there?
I believe the Approved Docs (England) allow the headroom to be reduced to 1.8m instead of 2.0m under the ceiling above the stairs on a loft converstion.
Yes I think I covered that in the video. It is only for one side of the stair, as per the diagram in the Approved Docs.
What type of software is your using for engineering am interested
what software you use in this video?
Those wider steps on top of the stairs is not passing building code in the USA where I've been building and renovating for the last forty eight years... when you turn a staircase you actually have to build a 3'×3' landing than add additional steps if needed to reach the Attic floor...
So your solution will not work in the states with today's building code..
This is the reason a number of renovations keep the old staircases as "existing to remain" otherwise in some small residential buildings it would be almost impossible space-wise to build a new staircase...
By the way this is a great video and very good explanation step by step... no carpenter should mess up the job with all this great help!
Thank you friend.
Luckily your comment is completely irrelevant because these videos are specifically for the UK.
In the caption: "See the other videos in the series on how to convert a loft in the UK, step by step:"
Not everything is about the USA, you know?
@@diegosebastian2226 No need to be rude. I don't live in the UK or USA but still very find it interesting to watch how one country does things and to hear comments from experienced people in others.
What software are you using?
Hi thanks for the really helpful videos. What design programme do you use?
It’s SketchUp
I do this for a living (New Build & Extension design), nice presentation Robin, I use SketchUp to work out the more complicated jobs as well. Will you be mentioning fire compartmentation requirement in another video?
Hi Chris. Yes, I hope to go into the fire regs in a seperate video.
@@RobindeJongh Nice one Robin, that will make for a well rounded video series.
what software are you using?
Really helpful video! Can I ask which version of Sketchup graphics you use? Is it in the settings, or do you have a special textures package. They look so much more realistic than what I have found in my work - the concrete block for starters. I'd love to know.
Hi William. It's photo texturing. Actually, I wrote a book on it 😄geni.us/QBv3
if costs aren't a huge issue, I would add like 4 dormers to the roof, obviously with one of them being directly over the stairs. added benefit of bringing in more natural light
Great idea David 👍🏻
You need to talk about fire regulations and thermal properties. Other than that, nice vid.
Very informative, by using the app to show the different staircases. My concern is the tripping hazard at the top of the new staircase, and the difficulty of moving furniture up and down. Is there any concern about needing fire exits from the loft
The stair has to be designed as an approved fire exit. Winders are not as negotiable as straight stairs, but can be designed under your building code. If you don't like them, don't use them. All depends on your local code. If this is a third level, you could be required to have two exits. If you want a bedroom up there, it could add requirements for a window or door that adds a means of second emergency exit. I get requests to design attic conversions often. It is usually not feasible due to money or the existing construction. The houses favored for this sort of thing are usually old junk houses. It is easier to tear some of them down than play games with them. You can see from this video how involved it can be. Most furniture is available in knock-down components.
Hi Peter. Thank you for sharing your experience. What country are you based in?
In the UK, for fire regulations, usually the staircase will need to be encased in plasterboard walls with a fire door, as well as there needing to be modifications to the main stairwell of the property.
@@RobindeJongh California. Thanks for your video.
which software is this? autocad!
Even when playing games (Minecraft), stairs always was pain in the ass to figure out where to place. I always ended up obstructing my windows or hitting my head up a ceiling.
What is this program?
It is important to note that this video only deals with the basic structure of access into the loft space. There are many other elements that impinge on the actual design and setting out that go well beyond this simplified view e.g.
The design of a staircase and winders is prescribed and can offer a 3-D conundrum. Most UK housing have ceiling heights of 2.4m and with maximum rise on each tread that means the second riser fall foul of the minimum height rules that is exacerbated by the requirement of a minimum of 75mm of tread on each winder. The second riser is often under the ceiling and thus can fall foul of the headroom requirement. Remember also that the loft space will require furniture and contorted staircases can preclude the installation of beds and the like..
If the loft space is going to be used as a habitable space (why would you go to all this work if it wasn't a habitable space?) then the original roof will need to have considerable insulation added that will probably lower the sloping ceiling so that it again becomes problematic with headroom.
Because adding a loft conversion increases the overall height of the accommodation to 3 storeys fire precautions play a big part and the staircase will need to be a fire protected core from attic to final exit.
These are some of the considerations beyond the simple structure and designing in detail a loft conversion is more difficult that any other improvement to the home.
I do agree with all of this, a lot of fire and building regulation elements are missing unfortunately. Guys don't design your loft conversion like this or you will end up in all sorts of trouble. Personally I have my doubts as to whether this example even works as habitable space because the finished floor height is low, the collars are small and it doesn't factor in the amount of insulation needed for the rafters. It might work as a single room with ensuite rather than a double say.
@@dannymurphy1779 I have looked at many roof where clients like the idea of creating a room in the roof and the first thing you come across is a height issue, where externally the roof seems tall enough but the internal ceiling height is usually much higher than the eaves height that is being seen that cuts down the available space dramatically without even considering the requirements of insulation that affects it even more. On one job the only way to get the extra height was to raise the rear eaves height by increasing the wall and then repitching that half of the roof.
On the fire issue there have been changes over the years on means of escape but I always look to achieving a fire protected staircase core that exits the building at ground floor level that is probably the most reliable system.
and or bump out the roof to give head height to the entire side of the loft
... is there a cheap way to lift up the roof, perhaps making it into a Mansard roof instead, with a tight budget? It seems to me you get very very few square meters usable space after the law proscribed insulation...
The winder at the top is dangerous and it doesn't meet code in Canada.
A landing is safer and will require more space. Another solution would be a dormer in the roof to get more headroom at top of stairs, of course a lot more work. Also could put the stairs on the outside to not loose space in the house. Plan ahead and build safe!
Hi, great video!! What program are you using for molding this?
It's SketchUp
I really what the reason or history of those regulations.
Great videos. What software do you use?
It looks like SketchUp to me
Hi, what software do you use to model the structure? Revit?
Hi Tomas. It's the pro version of this: geni.us/sketchup
Cheapest solution: Ships ladder or spiral stair case...
What I would do: I'd add 4 Dormers to the attic to make the room more usable, one at the stair top
Hi Robin. What software do you use to create your drawings? Thanks mate.
Haha just seen below it's SketchUp.
Very well explained, thanks Robin,. can I ask what software you are using?
SketchUp
Hi Joe. Sketchup Pro geni.us/sketchup
Another good example of the futility of building standards, winders have a sidnificant risk of falls down stairs, particularly at the top of the staircase.
Thanks Paul.
Yes I agree, it would probably be better to allow steeper staircases rather than forcing people to go for alternating tread or winders.
@@RobindeJongh Steep staircases also increase the likelihood of falls. Better to use a landing and swap more of the length of the stairs to the side.
Very nice ideas. Personally I don't mind losing headroom for an attic/loft. That's to say nothing of code but not that I care much lol
Trouble comes when you try to sell your house, and if you don't have building regs certificate, you can lose the sale or lose value on the house.
@@RobindeJongh for sure something to take into account. Where I am in the rural US it's not that big a deal and many basements, garages, and attics get finished with no permits or inspection (which applies to most of the US it seems).
Very informative content though and I appreciate the variety of options you covered!
I have a question about what is said @1:40 about the 400mm from an opening door. That does not seem to be what Part K says. The text has that 400mm restriction for doors that _swing across_ a bottom landing. If the door swings into the room and not the corridor, there is no minimum distance given.
Have you found control officers to interpret that as "no doors within 400mm, regardless?"
HI. I would be happy to check this for you ➡️www.robindejongh.com/ask-the-structural-engineer
Can I make a flitch beam with scaffold boards and 3mm galvanised sheet steel
4 scaffold boards and 3 laminations of galvanised sheet I ask as I have plenty of both span is 6.5 meters?
If you are asking that question, you have no business doing the kind of work you are describing.
Get a structural engineer before you collapse a house, injure yourself, someone else or worse...
@Ali Macallan thank you for taking the time to reply
To set your mind at ease, I'm certainly not going to use this idea to build a house or for it to collapse it was simply a fishing exercise on feasibility of the idea
Not to ask the question would be a waste
Can I convert a loft and still achieve habitable space if the max height in the loft is 1.9 metres?
Hi. 1.9m is probably too little.
The building regs are going nuts. Its for bloomin storage!
Why not put in a switchback stair?
How about a 90° turn around on the 9th step, then 3 steps up and you are in the center of the loft area? Do codes allow for this?
Hi Tony. Codes would allow it.
Would make an ugly channel in your landing ceiling, but I’ve seen stranger things.
What software do you use for your drawings?
It looks like Sketchup, but Blender is Free and powerful
Plenty of regulations about stairs and things, but nothing prohibiting a jump spring from Sonic 2.
I'm going to put a box of rings at the bottom of each spring chute so guests can grab one and survive the hit with the ceiling without dying.
What software are you designing this house in? I'd love to design my dream house with it 😍
It's Sketchup, but look like the paid-for version. They have a free online one, but it's not as good with big models.
Try using Blender, its free and very powerful.
@@2036scott wouldn't it be hard to use blender? I would have to make all the assets myself.
If it's a single room you could alter the pitch.
or you could install one of those new snazzy lifts that go all the way through the home
Do you offer a paid consulting service? I am building in Australia and need some help with how my loft conversion can happen
Hi Bevan. Yes, I run a structural consultancy, or you can ask me specific questions here www.robindejongh.com/ask-the-structural-engineer
I'm 2.05. So I'd say fidgeting with 2m headroom is going to suck, just make the entire thing 1.5 then at least I'm sure I won't banging my head against anything.
What software is this please?
Hi Charles. It's geni.us/sketchup
It seems to me that it would be easier to turn the staircase 90 degrees and run it directly under the roof ridge.
No mention of fire safety at all? It's a different situation for a 3 storey house
why show the most obvious position last...?