For me, it would have to be Colonel Fairfax from The Yeomen of the Guard. He leads Phoebe on only to steal Elsie from Jack. He's incredibly self-centred and doesn't care a bit for the hurt he causes. Also, in the finale, he could have revealed who he was to Elsie sooner instead of leaving her in emotional agony for as long as he did, even taunting her by pretending to be a different person when she was already down. A five-star cad in my book.
He CAN be interpreted that way and it's totally valid to play him thus, but I also consider that he's been a soldier and perhaps not used to complex social situations, especially with women. He may just have a really odd sense of humour! Also, Elsie never belonged to Jack, so he didn't steal anybody! It's completely possible that his love for her is genuine.
I agree with you that his caddishness is largely a matter of interpretation, but I would also add that as a soldier he does have to test the quality of the people under his command, and Elsie came to him as a completely unknown quantity. He would be remiss as a nobleman and a soldier to just accept her without trying to test her mettle, which he does both in his disguised self and in his regular role. Both cases were necessary and should not be played as sadistic games.@@forbeartheatre I would like to see those scenes played as being as painful for him as for her.
I agree so much with you on your Number 1. When I first saw the sorcerer (in 2023 in Buxton) I saw him as the embodiment of the abusive husband, the guy whom played him really portrayed this very well. Truly what I wanted was for Aline to just run away from him, because I was already seeing him being a very violent man to her. Also his plan to force everyone to find love is ew, as an aromantic person myself, I'd be furious!
Great list! I do think you're a little harsh on Tolloler/Montarrarat and "Spurn not the nobly born". They're the classic Monty Python Upper-Class Twits. "Spurn Not the Nobly Born" is a mild parody of the convention that a nobleman in this kind of play is a villaiin or at least laughably unworthy (e.g. Sir Joseph). And my feeling that both of music and the versification, particularly in the second verse, is high quality. What I find a lot more offensive of this kind is the combination of the Duke's insistence that he is not to be envied with the (apparently correct) assumption by everyone throughout Act 2 of Patience that he can simply choose whichever maiden he wants and they will jump at it. There is also the assumption that a band of pirates can get off the hook for years spent in sinking ships, repeated acts of theft and pillage, etc,, go back to their place in the House of Lords and presumably their large inherited wealth, and get to marry a collection of beautiful young women if it turns out that they were noblemen who has gone wrong, but that's too silly to be really offensive. Peers will be peers. I agree that Dame Carruthers is loathsome, and I'm not sure you're going to get anywhere trying to ameliorate that, but to my mind the worst part of her is that she blackmails someone who deeply despises her into marrying her. Feh. For a similar reason, I would put Scaphio and Phantis pretty high on this list, for their nasty, sadistic blackmailing of Paramount. Congratulations on the gig with the Grosvenor Light Opera! That's wonderful! Well deserved.
Let me know if you want my dialogue revisions for Yeomen. I wrote them after I watched your dialogue video where you complained how badly it was done in the play. I did a little work on Dame Carruthers but most of it was between Phoebe and her father and brother.
I definitely agree on your no. 1! Also, I hadn't thought about the jobsworthiness of Dame Carruthers in that way before. I want to see your production and how you shape that character.
Excellent video! But I would put Dick Dauntless (Ruddigore) at the top of this list. A selfish, cynical, manipulative master of spin, humbug, cant, bulls**t, or whatever word for it you prefer. He portrays his ship's cowardly retreat from a well-armed French ship as a noble act of mercy. Having promised to woo Rose for Robin he woos her for himself instead. To make Rose leave Robin he betrays the secret that Robin is Sir Ruthven Murgatroyd - and portrays this as a noble act by singing "My heart made me!" in a heroic style. And he does it all with such impenetrable self-confidence that the villagers of Ruddigore all fall for it!
I always viewed princess Zara as manipulative. When I watched Utopia for the first time I really thought she was planning to cause mess on Utopia Island for her father to be dynamited by Tarara and then assume power for herself.
I disliked Tololler more than Mountararat simply because when they overheard the remarks between Strephon and his mother at the start of the act 1 finale, Tololler's 'understanding' of Iolanthe's comment is much less like what was actually said and much more repellant, casting Iolanthe in such a negative light. Mountararat's comments are slightly less repulsive. It's a little thing but Tolloler generally presents himself as a self-aware user, who has often had an excuse for such an excuse as he thinks Strephon is offering. Absolutely agree that Alexis is the most repellant individual in the canon.
For me #1 would have to be the Lord High Everything Else. At his best, stuck-up, vain, pompous, annoying. At his worst, all the above and mercenary. Having him as a "friend" isn't every going to get you a helpful favour unless he is well-compensated. He doesn't have friends, just people he can use. I also would have to put Wilfred on the list. I know, you played Phoebe in a production that made him sympathetic, and I found that an interesting reinterpretation of the Wilfred-Phoebe dynamic. But I think creepy is a more natural, and certainly more widespread, interpretation. And I marvel that Hildebrand, the personification of patriarchy, didn't even make the top 10!
Good point about Hildebrandt, and Gama too. I view Wilfred as being a mediocre man in a bad position. He might have become something as a jester, perhaps. I wrote a little post-finale scene where Elsie takes Phoebe into her service and fulfills Jack's pledge to teach him to be a Jester, rather than have their union seen as something tragic. I don't understand people who insist on seeing it that way when it doesn't have to be.
For me, it would have to be Colonel Fairfax from The Yeomen of the Guard. He leads Phoebe on only to steal Elsie from Jack. He's incredibly self-centred and doesn't care a bit for the hurt he causes. Also, in the finale, he could have revealed who he was to Elsie sooner instead of leaving her in emotional agony for as long as he did, even taunting her by pretending to be a different person when she was already down. A five-star cad in my book.
He CAN be interpreted that way and it's totally valid to play him thus, but I also consider that he's been a soldier and perhaps not used to complex social situations, especially with women. He may just have a really odd sense of humour! Also, Elsie never belonged to Jack, so he didn't steal anybody! It's completely possible that his love for her is genuine.
I agree with you that his caddishness is largely a matter of interpretation, but I would also add that as a soldier he does have to test the quality of the people under his command, and Elsie came to him as a completely unknown quantity. He would be remiss as a nobleman and a soldier to just accept her without trying to test her mettle, which he does both in his disguised self and in his regular role. Both cases were necessary and should not be played as sadistic games.@@forbeartheatre I would like to see those scenes played as being as painful for him as for her.
I agree so much with you on your Number 1.
When I first saw the sorcerer (in 2023 in Buxton) I saw him as the embodiment of the abusive husband, the guy whom played him really portrayed this very well. Truly what I wanted was for Aline to just run away from him, because I was already seeing him being a very violent man to her. Also his plan to force everyone to find love is ew, as an aromantic person myself, I'd be furious!
Great list! I do think you're a little harsh on Tolloler/Montarrarat and "Spurn not the nobly born". They're the classic Monty Python Upper-Class Twits. "Spurn Not the Nobly Born" is a mild parody of the convention that a nobleman in this kind of play is a villaiin or at least laughably unworthy (e.g. Sir Joseph). And my feeling that both of music and the versification, particularly in the second verse, is high quality. What I find a lot more offensive of this kind is the combination of the Duke's insistence that he is not to be envied with the (apparently correct) assumption by everyone throughout Act 2 of Patience that he can simply choose whichever maiden he wants and they will jump at it. There is also the assumption that a band of pirates can get off the hook for years spent in sinking ships, repeated acts of theft and pillage, etc,, go back to their place in the House of Lords and presumably their large inherited wealth, and get to marry a collection of beautiful young women if it turns out that they were noblemen who has gone wrong, but that's too silly to be really offensive. Peers will be peers.
I agree that Dame Carruthers is loathsome, and I'm not sure you're going to get anywhere trying to ameliorate that, but to my mind the worst part of her is that she blackmails someone who deeply despises her into marrying her. Feh. For a similar reason, I would put Scaphio and Phantis pretty high on this list, for their nasty, sadistic blackmailing of Paramount.
Congratulations on the gig with the Grosvenor Light Opera! That's wonderful! Well deserved.
Let me know if you want my dialogue revisions for Yeomen. I wrote them after I watched your dialogue video where you complained how badly it was done in the play. I did a little work on Dame Carruthers but most of it was between Phoebe and her father and brother.
I definitely agree on your no. 1!
Also, I hadn't thought about the jobsworthiness of Dame Carruthers in that way before. I want to see your production and how you shape that character.
Excellent video! But I would put Dick Dauntless (Ruddigore) at the top of this list. A selfish, cynical, manipulative master of spin, humbug, cant, bulls**t, or whatever word for it you prefer. He portrays his ship's cowardly retreat from a well-armed French ship as a noble act of mercy. Having promised to woo Rose for Robin he woos her for himself instead. To make Rose leave Robin he betrays the secret that Robin is Sir Ruthven Murgatroyd - and portrays this as a noble act by singing "My heart made me!" in a heroic style. And he does it all with such impenetrable self-confidence that the villagers of Ruddigore all fall for it!
1:12 for a month to dwell in a Buxton cell 😂
Ha! Well spotted! 29th JULY!!!!
I always viewed princess Zara as manipulative. When I watched Utopia for the first time I really thought she was planning to cause mess on Utopia Island for her father to be dynamited by Tarara and then assume power for herself.
Shame on Princess Zara and what she did to Utopia!
I would like to see a production of The Sorcerer where Alexis goes to sleep forever instead of John Wellington Wells.
We did that in our production!
@@forbeartheatre Is it available online anywhere?
I disliked Tololler more than Mountararat simply because when they overheard the remarks between Strephon and his mother at the start of the act 1 finale, Tololler's 'understanding' of Iolanthe's comment is much less like what was actually said and much more repellant, casting Iolanthe in such a negative light. Mountararat's comments are slightly less repulsive. It's a little thing but Tolloler generally presents himself as a self-aware user, who has often had an excuse for such an excuse as he thinks Strephon is offering. Absolutely agree that Alexis is the most repellant individual in the canon.
I like your list, but I would have included Dick Dauntless over Tolloler.
For me #1 would have to be the Lord High Everything Else. At his best, stuck-up, vain, pompous, annoying. At his worst, all the above and mercenary. Having him as a "friend" isn't every going to get you a helpful favour unless he is well-compensated. He doesn't have friends, just people he can use.
I also would have to put Wilfred on the list. I know, you played Phoebe in a production that made him sympathetic, and I found that an interesting reinterpretation of the Wilfred-Phoebe dynamic. But I think creepy is a more natural, and certainly more widespread, interpretation.
And I marvel that Hildebrand, the personification of patriarchy, didn't even make the top 10!
Good point about Hildebrandt, and Gama too. I view Wilfred as being a mediocre man in a bad position. He might have become something as a jester, perhaps. I wrote a little post-finale scene where Elsie takes Phoebe into her service and fulfills Jack's pledge to teach him to be a Jester, rather than have their union seen as something tragic. I don't understand people who insist on seeing it that way when it doesn't have to be.