I think the line from the TNG episode “Family”: “One man’s dream...” supports the theory. (Returning to the ancestral home and rebuilding their place in the family heritage). Also with a name like Marie, I suspect that she would have been a French refugee as well ala Hercule Poirot (WWI) from Agatha Christie. They may have returned a generation or two earlier and were still rediscovering their unique cultural identity.
@@InfoFighter No, sorry to Hercule. I meant the potentially common status as a refugee sheltered by Britain after the war, not to misrepresent his nationality. Bad wording on my part.
I’ve often wondered, “if there’s no money in Star Trek time, why make wine?” The logical conclusion is that other than the estate being a familial home, it would be an industry of cultural significance almost like a living historical reenactment. So that plays into what you’ve postulated, too.
@@TheWarrrenator That even plays into his Luddite-esque attitudes in regards to things like replictors. "It's pissing on our cultural heritage to just 'materialize' the stuff. It's pissing on our cultural heritage to 'modernize' our lives too much."
@@TheWarrrenator the wine is made for pleasure, and as a personal gift to express affection. That a bottle of wine can be exactly replicated and given the organoleptic properties, is not the same as when it is the produce of people's work. It is not the same if it is a Château Picard than if it is a réplique de Château Picard.
My reading of his accent was always that the French language fell out of common use due to globalization and that the British accent took over since they were the closest English speaking neighbors. Many Germans I know speak English with a slight British accent because of who they learned the language from.
And perhaps because of some catastrophy (perhaps WWIII-related, perhaps not) wine could no longer be cultivated in France for a while and in the meantime the Frenchmen learnd to enjoy their Earl Greay Hot.^^
Reminds me of my British pals getting unsettled after my trip to the US, they hinted that they detected an American accent in my English and they subtlely insulted by it.
I think there was some push 20 years ago to make EU countries learn British English rather than American English (obviously when UK was an EU member). Christine Lagarde always strikes me as having an English accent.
I'm from northern England (20 miles from where Patrick Stewart grew up) and remember being asked by a Spanish waiter where I was from as he didnt recognise my English accent. He had learnt English in America...
this is the most rational explanation. And also, this theory is incredibly Eurocentric.235 millions people speak French as their daily language. 60% of French speakers are outside of France. It is an official Language in 29 countries.
@@Trekspertise The same has been said of many cultures. A century ago most Germans would have scoffed at English but today they all learn it and its getting into everyday use. Moreover the expansion of English into the Latin, African, and Asian spheres continues to subsume French. English utility only increases as more learn it. Perhaps in time French pride will allow the rise of English or perhaps migrations of peoples that share a common language in English and not French will displace it.
@@concidius Remember that French used to be what English is today (in effect, English has become the "lingua Franca" as odd as it is). Most predictions are English will give way to Chinese or Japanese some day. Then you have Blade Runner or Firefly, I guess
My in-universe explanation is that Picard started as a legit French schoolboy. When he went to Starfleet Academy, he became interested in American culture, including Dixon Hill. You can see a bit of "Johnny" Picard's personality in Tapestry. As he climbed the ranks, he sought increasing dignity and respectability, adopted an English accent (possibly with help from the universal translator), and became an anglophile. His tendency towards Shakespeare and Earl Grey is a sign of his interests, not his heritage.
I think it likely that, rather than France being wiped out and an artificially restored by it’s neighbors, refugees returned to France after it was safe to return and worked to rebuild it. It would explain the mix of cultural elements in Picard’s upbringing. Either way, France must have been restored rather prominently since Paris is the Federation Capital in the 24th century.
Let's face it, Picard is used as a sort of catch-all European to add interesting character quirks and Earth history tidbits that are beyond the American cultural and historical limitations
An interesting theory. As a Scot I have always loved the fact that Scotty was from Scotland(even if the accent was little dodgy, ha ha). Looking forward to the new content coming up. I love your video essays.
I met a guy in Scotland once with the most incredible accent. He was Brazilian and moved there and then learnt English from the locals, so he spoke good English but with a half Brazilian half Highlands/Perthshire accent. To my southern English ear, it was pretty wild.
It's worth noting that, if I remember correctly, France's nuclear posture is designed *not* to prevent it's destruction in an nuclear exchange, but to preserve enough firepower to exact retribution afterward (which is to say: they rely heavily on nuclear submarines, among other choices regarding their nuclear disposition.)
I played with the idea that under a united Earth government cultural institutions would continue to grow and thrive as they always have. Kinda like breaking up the United States or Canada into states and provinces. Part of a larger organization is just the beginning, each one is very unique and different.
You have good points and some less good points: -There is only one reference to French being an obscure language and dozens examples of there being nothing wrong with France. -I like the explanation of Picard and his brother growing up in England. That would solve that problem and leaves only Data's Code of Honor remark as the basis for this theory. -While France accounts for the lion's share of French's native speakers there are still other native speakers and in France hundreds of millions who use it as a second language. Obliterate France and the French language still isn't obscure.
I agree. I would propose that Data was just unaware of the cultural importance of French to humans from Earth, despite it being an obscure language in the context of the whole Federation.
I think the line is a plot-hole. An analytical android would not say something as imprecise and subjective as "obscure"; nor would he, with Federation values ingrained in his programming, be a dick about someone else's culture.
@@Trekspertise Looking at what other have written, I propose this: Data meant it was an obscure language in the context of the Federation. Picard didn't understand that, so got annoyed. Data agreed that it was important on Earth, but was cut off before he could explain his Federation-centric intention. In later years Data would learn more about interacting with humans and would understand that they like to look at things more human-centric. He would not have made the comment 6-7 years later. Naturally out-of-universe, they just liked to throw stuff in to make it sound futuristic. If you thought this was an easy theory, try to explain in-universe the early TNG references to the Klingons having joined the Federation (Samaritan Snare, Matter of Honor). I dare you :D
Though I will delight in all that comes out from Trekspertise at any pace, I am especially stoked to see a take on Vulcan history akin to your magnificent Klingon history two-parter.
I think Gene Roddenberry was just making it up as he went along and that is why TOS and season 1 of TNG are so rife with inconsistencies. Things didn't really get fleshed out until he was no longer directly involved with production.
It's not just the Picards, though. That guy who wanted to poach Picard for a project to raise an artificial continent from the sea floor also spoke with an English accent. My own personal theory has always been that La Barre took in enough English refugees during WW3 that the local accent became British sounding, but places like Paris retained a French accent.
I always thought Picard had an English accent because most French people that learn English learn it from UK English speakers. So the English that French people try to imitate is that from the UK. Picard is probably just really good at English because people in Europe learn languages better than the US and I’m sure education methods for other languages are more advanced.
There is the fact a large portion of western France has belonged to England at one time or anther so there’s a possibility that during the time of chaos that England reacquired some of it The Port of Calais with the channel tunnel being seen as a major gateway into into the UK would want to keep control of ) at the start of any conflict followed by expanding down the coast
Based on references to Gaullist and neo-Trotskyist factions in the country at the time, I'm guessing the country fell into civil war. Perhaps it was seen in retrospect as a sort of opening act to the greater global conflict, with one faction supported by the Eastern Coalition against the other.
Coquelles France is 50.5 railway miles from Folkestone UK via the Channel Tunnel ( (31 miles from Calais France to Dover UK by commercial automobile/walk on ferry). France and the UK have shared a basically open border for decades. Thousands commute each way every day for work, shopping, etc. Many, many British people in the UK speak French. Many, many French people in France speak English. None of what I have asserted above is theory, or fiction. The French and the British cultures have had a lot in common, since before modern France and modern UK, beginning with the Norman invasion of England, at the Battle of Hastings, in 1066. You might want to get out a little more. Thumbs up on the video though. If you're in the US, Happy Thanksgiving from California, if not, then Happy Thursday :-)
4:06 One comment, Ronald Guttman is from Flanders specifically. The first language in Flanders is Flemish, a dialect of Dutch, not French like in Wallonië (the other big province of Belguim) So his accent isn't French lol. I think he learned French at school. I can hear his Flemish accent shining through on a few words.
I saw an interview withMarina Sirtis (Councilor Troi) in which she stated that she used to wonder about Picard having an English accent when he was supposed to be French is that England used the Chunnel to successfully invade and conquer France.
7:09: France wasn't Catholic. The French Revolution saw to that. Trafalgar was also a Napoleonic Wars battle. It's probably better to say that it pitted Napoleonic France & Spain against Britain. . .
What about all the other countries that speak French, like most of West and central Africa, Quebec, Guyana, Haiti, and Madagascar? Not to mention all the French speakers throughout Europe. French is one of the most commonly spoken languages in the world, and if France itself disappeared the language would still be commonly used all over.
My scenario: 1. Maybe only the backwater parts of France survived WWIII. Places like Paris were annihilated by atomic bombs (I will how explain how Paris had returned later), while the more isolated rural areas survived. 2. Also in the days before the bombs fell in WWIII, a lot of Brits crossed the Chunnel to take refuge in France which would lead to a large English settlement in Western France, maybe an with "Englandtown" or two in major French metropolises. 3. Now Francophone Africa is little more tricky. Maybe Africans during this time returned to native languages or at least a creole language mixing French, native language, and maybe (pending Africa being relatively unaffected) any future immigrants. 4. The Paris (along San Francisco and other major cities in Star Trek) is really a New Paris. The old Paris was annihilated by nuclear weapons but the Earth (maybe with Vulcan help and tech) removed the radiation from the grounds of old Paris and built a replica city on the remains. The treasures of the Louvre would have been transferred to underground bunkers before the onset of WWIII and maybe parts of the Eiffel Tower (sorry I think the Eiffel Tower in Picard's Life was Eiffel Tower 2.0). Also the rebuilding hypothesis also explains why there is a San Francisco in Star Trek too.
In TNG's Code of Honor French translation, Data refers to 'Old French', not current French. It might just be an ignorant American point of view from the writers. TNG was still in its infancy and character development is often sloppy during these early seasons. It is probable that the writers just dound the said expression and thought, as a cliché that it was still in use in the 80s... 'Sacrebleu' is not used anymore in France. for example. The theory, for what it's worth can make sense but I might be too much biased as a French myself to fully buy it. As for me, I see more of a joint effort from French and international aid to rebuild France but it was not entirely destroyed although it must have suffered a great deal of damage during WW3. And finding British actors is still easier for an American based production than finding French actors that will need to be dubbed to be understood in English which might be cumbersome to the audience, audience can manage a few sentances in Klingon every now and then, but having a very badly spoken English, (in the 80s, no French actors could have stood the role in English and been taken seriously enough, having good English speaking French actors is very recent (also in the genral population, French are slowly getting better at speaking English but trust me, it wasn't the case 40 years ago ! look at Macron... and look at a few years ago when Sarkozy was president, the Minister for Foreign affairs, PhilDouse Blazy didn't know a single word of Enfglish ! WTF for the first diplomat of the country... they had to postpone meetings with Condolezza Rice, the US equivalent at the time, several times to find a suitable translater... ) So what I mean, is that you can't really forge a theory on what the series material gives you, it is biased by production methods, audience needs and actors availability. Also we can assume that the big warlike relations between France, UK and Spain throughout the centuries will have different family branches scattered in the 3 countries as well.
Good video, but a large portion of Algeria and sub-Saharan Africa speak French as a first language, or at least a lingua francs, it wouldn't be the end of French were the country itself destroyed barring vestiges in England, Belgium and Switzerland.
I've always just imagined that French people in Trek spoke with British accents because of France's proximity to Britain, but this theory is quite interesting
Now what I had believed is that the Brits took control of France in the early war, forcing French integration into the United Kingdoms of Great Britain (and France now, I guess)
I offer another theory which concerns only Data’s comment: French is obscure because the minority languages of France went through a revival. ‘Proper French’ is based on the Parisian dialect and is strictly monitored by the Académie Française. There are plenty of other minority dialects spoken across France, including the language of Picardy called Picard or Chtimi. My theory is that there is now Parisian, Picard, Walloon, Norman etc. and the catch-all French term has fallen out of favor as a first language but is still spoken as a shared language. It’s pretty similar to what has happen with German, Norwegian, and English and it includes the Easter egg of Picard possibly speaking Picard.
As a French, I'm both revolted and extatic ; very french. :P Now, as a matter of fact the erratic writing of early-TNG may have to be taken with more than a grain of salt. And let's have a look at what we've got that can work. As of today, french language and french culture span far abroad, between the french expatriates everywhere around and the Francophony lingustic alliance, between its culture influence and its small territories around the world. Also, this is far from being recent: concerning the Picard, it's been quite common to see people fighting for kingdoms that weren't theirs when they found an interest in it, material or spiritual, and during the religious wars between catholics and reformed christians a lot of reformed noble families emigrated... to England. So, the idea of an old and proud french family that grew mainly british through the centuries isn't far fetched, and if you consider what the name Picard may tell us about the family's origins they seem to have been moving a lot! As of today, also, France has a peculiar strategic position. If we get into WW3 logic, NATO's plans consider the german valley around Rammstein as THE line of defense against an eastern assault if it was to happen. If it was to fail, France would be next in line and more or less screwed. So, maybe Germany, France and others got wiped out in a major initial push, yes. Now, did french identity die there and then... ? I'd say no, but considering the survivors locally and the now-diaspora around the world and the difficulties it would have to maintain cohesion and substance after the fall of metropolitan France and during the dark decades following, it'd have taken a heavy toll. After all, current studies point out that a language can be engineered to almost disppear in a generation. So, maybe french was destroyed, intentionally or as a consequence of a lack of academic support, and it would become a part of a common identity the "French" would cling to with pride in private. Let's just look at the cajun and learn from their experience. Then, after the pacification of the world and the birth of the world government, plans could happen to reform the french nation. But would it be that pushed by international accords, or would it be more of a spontaneous thing? If the "French" kept a grasp of their lost nation throughout the world, we may simply begin to see a spontaneous return to roots of a part of them. There would obviously be trouble between the actual people living in France by now and the immigrants, which would possibly need international oversight, and obviously every French wouldn't go back to the old french territory. Lives got built and spent abroad and a diaspora would probably persist for centuries, if not forever. It may not be seen as an issue by then, since the existence of a diaspora often comes with a net of influence abroad, that could serve the reputation and the interests of a "french revival". So, yes, Jean-Luc Picard is a very british man with a fondness for his french roots ; but is that problematic if we take such a situation? Taking over the old vinyard could have been an old family debate that came to fruition only recently with the marriage of Picard Sr with a French woman and the peculiar relation of Robert with roots in general. Jean-Luc could have been exposed to french culture, and parisian especially, and be peculiarly fond of it, but he may still be an english academic with a strong british culture base, furthermore leaving to go to Starfleet Academy in the USA before leaving Earth to serve for his whole adult life. Jean-Luc Picard is a british man loving France because to him, it's an old family thing and a consequence of both History and his personal life choices. He didn't get a real experience of "France" as an actual thing before he took back the vinyard ad started "living french" in France as an old man that decided himself it would be that way. France still lives strong, only it's less of a strict definition and more of a half-chosen, half-inherited identity by then, and a "subcultural culture" that many people may look at as a honorable one to behold and keep alive. Thus people would speak french occasionally to feel cool and nice, and Data may say "Look, I'm a French man!" not as a joke, but as a supportive righteous stance : "Look! I spoke french with French. I'm supporting an old, once endangered, now reviving culture. I love you guys! Do your thing!"
With the current situation in the UK and with a proposed WW3 to take into account, it seems unlikely in the extreme that England (for that is all that will remain of the UK) would be in any position to resurrect France. Much more likely that it would be French speakers from Quebec. And the Englishness of Jean Luc, well that is unlikely to have come from what we now call England. More likely to have come from a New England (no not the one in the US) but where that might reside is hard to see.
This is kinda along the lines of trying to figure out why Romulans had an Irish accent in Picard.. the actors didn't bother to change their accents to fit in with the show ;-p IMHO I think in centuries to come, not sure on WW3, but that we'll have some form of commonality in culture and language, and some things may drop off over the passage of time. Look at the airline industry - everyone speaks English i.e. pilots and air traffic controllers, in order to avoid everyone having to learn another language for flight control etc.
Forgot about those "cheeky feckers." But also..."change their accents to fit in with the show" assumes that the accents normally used aren't also from somewhere.
@@Trekspertise As to accents and such: Just give good characters, writing, shows and such, and I'm happy.. but I'm still waiting on this from the current people in charge o.0 IN the words of Mike S of RLM, "I miss Star Trek". Side note - I'm almost as old as most of the long lived IPs out there, and for me, I'm happy with what's avail i.e. 50 yrs of work to peruse. So let's leave it alone, put it away and make something new. I feel more sorry for Browncoats who really got gypped on their IP o.0 Hope you and yours are doing well during our current dilemma o.0 Thanks for what you do!
Here's my theory: France wasn't as destroyed as you imply it was, but the major urban areas like Paris, Marseille, Lyon, and others were mostly reduced to rubble. The rural areas, which may include La Barre, however, were spared. And you know what is stronger in the rural areas of France over the urban cores? The regional languages of France. So it could well be that the regional languages have seen a big resurgence in the centuries following first contact, and that Picard was raised primarily speaking a language like Alsatian, Franconian, or Franc-comtois.
Though I could be way off because I don't remember the context for Data's line (and I have no way to check right now) is it possible he just meant the language would be obscure to the person he was talking to? Because even if the rest of the theory presented here is entirely correct, the french language is spoken as a primary tongue in several other European countries (I know of two more myself, and suspect there are others), as well as in places as far apart as North America and Africa... and it's commonplace as a second language among non-native speakers everywhere in the world as well. Also consider the idea that in countries that list it as one of several official languages, keeping the language alive even among people who didn't speak it before could very well become a matter of national pride. So, while I like the drama of this theory, even if the entire country of France sunk into the Mediterranean and was never seen again I have doubts that that could affect the language to the degree you're describing, and certainly not enough to have it become "obscure". Ultimately I don't think it accounts for Data's line.
As a brit i'd much prefer if the theoretical answer for the timeline is that most of southern England was sunk into the ocean basically because it holds so many US bases in WW3 so it was obliterated and Picard's family were refugee's, and this is the reason he is so patriotic to his families foster home.
Well, I tend to gravitate toward the idea that nations no longer exist in the TNG era. Sure, states exist...regions, states from the former USA as some have been mentioned, but I tend to think that it is likely most major nations as they are known today are gone. Most nations, I theorize, never rebuilt their governments, and a single world government now exists. People still have regional pride...I think your theory still works with this theory.
This makes some sense, it being in its first stages since First Contact being just a decade later would've kinda put the kibosh on it, since well....aliens.
Interesting video and interesting questions. Thanks for sharing. It raises more questions than it answers them. As a French Canadian, I've always found the Star Trek "french scenes" to be more of a tourist trap filled with clichés. But it's OK. I forgive the series. It goes with the genre. Other cultures have been portrayed in odd ways: character Cosimo as a fake Italian Luigi (Star Trek Voyager, 'Non Sequitur'), the faked Zulu-Africans-like kingdom in TNG's 'Code of Honor', or the good indian full of wisdom cliché in TNG's 'Journey's End', etc. I think it's more of an hommage than any other thing. All Star Trek universe is based on core values that resemble those that rose from the French Revolution : reason, the scientific method and liberty. I think it played a big factor in establishing all these hommages. Maybe more than the English culture is willing to admit. (Sorry) We know Roddenberry served in France during WW II. Maybe there are clues to be discovered from there. As per the argument of the replenishment of France from the UK, I found it weird that we could not have looked for many other French speaking countries. 25% of Canada is fluent un French, Belgium, Antille Islands, many African countries that used to be colonosed by France, etc. This whole discussion is more about the American Melting Pot point of view. There's no other regionalism than those immigrating ti the US: France, English, Russians, Italians, etc. There is as much difference from southern France culture to the famous Paris' well known accent, than there is difference between Chicago or Biloxi's accents. But it's ok. It's an American series after all. But it's obvious that the American accents are more well diversified than the cliché'd other world accents.
The Paris Skyline is strong Evidence that Paris was destroyed France is hyper protective of its historic skyline of Paris and refuses to allow construction of sky scrapers in the city. Any building that would take away from the renesaunce esthetic or compete with the Eiffel tower is out and I only see that attitude becoming more ridged with time. Unless... of course.... Paris was destroyed and had to be rebuilt, with the Eiffel tower being one of the few remanence that survived.
The more I think about this the more I wonder if it’s not just France, but the majority of mainland Europe. Outside of Russia and Eastern European countries like Belarus (Minsk!), I can’t recall any callouts to Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, or Italy, aside from perhaps historical notes. It also couldn’t have been nuclear war, otherwise the Picard vineyard would be unviable. My guess would be either a bio weapon that affected only human life or a plague/pandemic. Perhaps COVID-25 runs rampant through Europe, Russia takes over the old Eastern Bloc as a buffer zone and the UK/Ireland seal themselves off as islands from mainland Europe? Sounds super grizzly for mainland Europe. 😬
I suppose all languages were rediscovered eventually by the later time travellers out of an intellectual sense of honor and curiosity. I believe, French did survive (didn't fully die out and survived in Canada and USA as well) in Star Trek indefinitely, despite of being considered obscure as in not as much used in terms of amount of Star Trek people. Perhaps it being obscure means that French did survive. Perhaps the accents and languages were most or all preserved. Besides this, there are the 26-31th century time travelers that most certainly recorded many languages in some versions of Star Trek. There of course were Holodeck characters capable of much perfect language usage. The story of Star Trek I have interprested as party multiversionic and very two versionic.
I think you’re overthinking it a bit. The world is a smaller place in Picards time. He probably grew up in France and went to the UK for school during the day.
• The Universal Translator translates _words_ not accents; accents are like fonts. You can translate a Russian 'Д' to a Latin 'D', but there's no need to translate a cursive '𝒟' to 'D'. • There was definitely a lot of French stuff in TNG with all that wine and such; Data's line is definitely out of place. Maybe cultures just blended together over time à la the _South Park_ episode "Goobacks". 🤔
One problem with this theory is the fact that French is the third biggest global language after Spanish and English (not including Chinese which is highly local and not spoken in colonies). French is spoken in several European countries besides France, as well as Canada and huge areas of North and West Africa. So unless WWIII also obliterated Africa, it doesn’t fully explain Data’s comment. Perhaps following Earth’s unification there was an effort to reinvigorate native languages and wipe out colonial languages? Hmm so much we don’t know about post-WWIII Earth.
Not to mention all the non-human "accents" that show up throughout the franchise. One could do an entire video on that subject. A big one too, and a really good one. (hint hint)
My theory for Picard's english frenchness is that at some point leading up to WW3, something terrible happened in Britain (like the rise of a dictator or a civil war) and as a result, a huge amount of people fled GB, settling in France in sufficient numbers that even when they integrate with the local French population, enough english culture and accents remains to stick out like a sore thumb even 400 years in the future
I might be writing this too early, but I've always rationalized Picard's accent simply as a casting. Obviously no one other than Stewart could be Picard and it would be silly to have part of the main cast maintaining a put on accent. This is why is why guest character woul be more likely to be written in with their native accents. Now for the England sh habits of Picard, I personally thought these were probably a bit of joke the writers slipped in. This supposed proud Frenchman was English in every possible way, makes a pretty good kind of wink wink, nudge nudge joke.
Ending France sounds very German too. I say chances are that France suffered a lot either from the eugenics wars or WW3. The rebuild theory makes a lot of sense. Beyond that its surely ironic to hear Americans talk about accents for the language of England :)
@@Trekspertise By Linguistic Standards, "American English" is an accent itself, but hardly ever considered as such. Which then makes it ironic to me If Americans talk about other (mostly european influenced) accents.
You then have other French speaking regions like parts of Canada. French origin people are very possessive of their language too. Much more probable that Data got a bad throw away line in the script. Which seems to be the case. You could also equally ask what happened to German, Russian and Chinese. The issue is the script writers speak and write for an English audience.
As many French terms are used in English these would be in the Universal translator. Meaning English speakers could have French translated and not know.
@@Trekspertise which is what I did in the second post, anyone who didn't understand the French words would hear a translation. Therefore the language would become niche and Federation staff would need to know English anyway in case of emergency.
1:18 You know I used to be a amateur francophone, I still take offense of that line with Picard. If anything, the logic looks like French might actually be on par with English if not more important in a unified earth. But no, Trek chose English. Which, I can't complain because I am a native English speaker but at the same time I am like "Yeah no." Plus, I can accept Picard is French and British. He just did a dragon ball fusion dance off screened and we just accept it. Because where is the evidence that proves me wrong? Checkmate Trek Fans.
French is an obscure language to Data because he: 1. was activated first somewhere in space 2. knows an unfathomable amount of languages 3. it is not one of the active main languages as clearly earth chose english.
This is a good point. Yet I don't recall Data often qualifying something as obscure aside from this one, thus raising an eyebrow. Either this is a script written too quickly, or this has some meaning that made us come here to talk about it. A third option would be that it was meant on purpose to make us talk about it at some point, but let's not jump into plot theories ;)
Fun fact about us Europeans: When we learn English, our teachers usually teach British English. Add a year abroad into the mix and we pick up the local accent and the occasional mannerism.
It doesn't seem to be universally true. Because I remember years ago when I was in a relationship with this Danish woman, she spoke English with a posh English accent (mixed together with a Danish accent). And as a brit with a posh English accent myself, I loved that about her. It seems like lots of people I meet for whom English is their second language, learn it from American movies and TV shows mostly. Even if they learn the language in school with British accents, the huge amount of American TV shows and movies that exist actually end up influencing their accent more than the school classes do. Because they really _WANT_ to learn English, specially so they can easily watch these movies and TV shows. So usually most people I meet that learned English as a second language, have more of an American accent. Certainly from places like Spain or Germany or France or Italy etc. But especially if they're from places like South America. They have no reason to learn the British accent version of English over there. They're closer to the US, and may want to even emigrate there
@@customfantasyhotwheels Why did you comment this? Did you think I didn't know that? Is that tiny mistake, that if I remember right was the fault of voice typing the comment, worth a face palm? Truly? Is correcting grammar on the internet what you do for fun? Have you never made a mistake? I prob would've corrected it when I saw the comment next, but I'm gonna leave it like that, see how many more like you I get.
Exactly. A wealthy family like his would have the option to send their children abroad; it would also explain why his brother has an accent as well, and his nephew. Having spent a good portion of his childhood there, he would speak English impeccably, and no doubt have picked up on a few British habits. For what it's worth, England does have excellent boarding school (they're called "public schools", strangely) where families have sent their children for generations; it seems logical to assume this tradition would extend into the future as well.
"Obscure" could be just early Data comparing French to other languages of the Federation or the entire Alpha and/or Beta Quadrants. In a world of universal translators, where Saru complains in the late 2250's that apparently he is the only one who bothered to learn several Human languages, it is not inconcievable that most languages widely spoken today would regress into being spoken by a much smaller core of native speakers.
Possibly, but at the same time that would be a case for nearly all of Earth's languages and a lot of Alien languages. The basis of this theory is that Data, a person who can learn sign language in minutes, regards French as obscure and none of the people around him seemed to recognise French that easily, whilst crewmembers in the past have noticed Russian and Spanish in TOS and DS9 respectively. Out of universe explanation is that it's probably an unintentional statement by the writers, and an alternative explanation is that Data may have goofed and got mislead by French. But it's still fun to theorise
@@TheYopogo Yeah, but he's also living 350 years in the future, so it's quite possible that during that era France adopted a lot of "old" english customs to the point where it isn't known as english anymore. I mean ever heard the term "swedish meatballs"? Swedish meatballs was given to Sweden by a turkish chef who came to sweden during 1400s... i mean it's become "swedish" over the centuries even if it was turkish from the start. Same thing could be with Picards mannerisms.
@@katiecat9353 Exactly! In Discovery there was an episode where the translator malfunctioned, so Pike started speaking with what appeared to be french and later german. I assume germans hear everyone speaking german, swedes speaking swedish etc.... the same with other species's languages.
@@Mukation That's a very good point, but I think it applies better to food and customs and things more than, for example, literature. Like, I don't think he ever quotes Balzac, but he talks about Shakespeare all the time. Could just be coincidence, lots of French people like Shakespeare even today, but still.
I too have a theory: Picard had an English teacher with a British accent so that's how Picard learned to speak English. That's it. That is literally what countless people around the world who learn English as a second language do. Also, why there are not similar conspiracy theories about all the people in Star Trek who are not native English speakers yet have native-level American accent? Why is that never considered weird and needing an explanation? As for Data's comments, certainly from galactic perspective a regional language spoken by a small percentage of people on one planet is 'obscure.'
I love these theories, more please! :) Star Trek forgot a lot of nations in Africa and Asia speak French as well, because they were former colonies of France. Did they get destroyed as well in world war 3?
I have wondered some of the same things and have a similar head cannon: that France fell and it's culture changed. I missed the French accent of Picard's mother. One potential explanation that does not involve Picard moving to Britain is that different parts of France were differently affected. Perhaps where the Vinaryed is, is in a region of France that was repopulated by the British after WW3? Perhaps his mother is from a part of France or other French speaking part of the world. Meaning Picard learnt French from his mother but culturally British based on the local part of France and his father?
Another theory regarding Nations and Star Trek, O’Brien’s suffering is a metaphor for all the things that have happened to Ireland over the centuries. One of my friends said this to me and the more I think about it, the more it seems true, or maybe it’s just a weird coincidence.
😢 I didnt connect the dots that DS9 was being filmed during the Troubles until season 7. I wonder if the friendship between Bashir, (who is the second most English trek characters who isn’t actually English) and O’Brien was influenced by that.
@@antonijaume8498 meh, I know those count as loanwords but I don't really consider them such since the whole Norman conquest thing changed the entire language so drastically. Regardless, you are indeed correct.
didnt tom harris spend a lot of his time in france around the time he was a cadet? thats why he recreated a french bar on the holodeck - i think set in marseille?
I like this. It certainly explains Picard’s interest in assisting with the Romulans and their efforts to rebuild their culture beyond what The Federation did (or didn’t do) th help.
I imagine a rebuilding a 🇫🇷 France would involve a while lot of people from 🇨🇦 Quebec being relocated to France since many of those Quebecers think they're more French then the French.
Dans un sens, oui ils sont plus français! ^^ Ils n'utilise pas beaucoup d'anglicismes alors que les français tendent à en incorporer dans le dictionnaire. Donc oui ils parlent mieux français!
I think the line from the TNG episode “Family”: “One man’s dream...” supports the theory. (Returning to the ancestral home and rebuilding their place in the family heritage). Also with a name like Marie, I suspect that she would have been a French refugee as well ala Hercule Poirot (WWI) from Agatha Christie. They may have returned a generation or two earlier and were still rediscovering their unique cultural identity.
An excellent point we missed!
Was it your intention to offend Poirot by calling him French instead of Belgian? xD
@@InfoFighter Absolutely not. We assumed French-speaking Belgian.
@@InfoFighter we labeled him as "French-speaking."
@@InfoFighter No, sorry to Hercule. I meant the potentially common status as a refugee sheltered by Britain after the war, not to misrepresent his nationality. Bad wording on my part.
The need to rebuild France might also help explain why Robert took such deep offense to Jean Luc leaving Earth.
That's the spirit
I’ve often wondered, “if there’s no money in Star Trek time, why make wine?” The logical conclusion is that other than the estate being a familial home, it would be an industry of cultural significance almost like a living historical reenactment. So that plays into what you’ve postulated, too.
@@TheWarrrenator That even plays into his Luddite-esque attitudes in regards to things like replictors. "It's pissing on our cultural heritage to just 'materialize' the stuff. It's pissing on our cultural heritage to 'modernize' our lives too much."
@@TheWarrrenator Everyone likes a drink. Even in the future!
@@TheWarrrenator the wine is made for pleasure, and as a personal gift to express affection. That a bottle of wine can be exactly replicated and given the organoleptic properties, is not the same as when it is the produce of people's work. It is not the same if it is a Château Picard than if it is a réplique de Château Picard.
My reading of his accent was always that the French language fell out of common use due to globalization and that the British accent took over since they were the closest English speaking neighbors. Many Germans I know speak English with a slight British accent because of who they learned the language from.
And perhaps because of some catastrophy (perhaps WWIII-related, perhaps not) wine could no longer be cultivated in France for a while and in the meantime the Frenchmen learnd to enjoy their Earl Greay Hot.^^
Reminds me of my British pals getting unsettled after my trip to the US, they hinted that they detected an American accent in my English and they subtlely insulted by it.
I think there was some push 20 years ago to make EU countries learn British English rather than American English (obviously when UK was an EU member). Christine Lagarde always strikes me as having an English accent.
I'm from northern England (20 miles from where Patrick Stewart grew up) and remember being asked by a Spanish waiter where I was from as he didnt recognise my English accent. He had learnt English in America...
this is the most rational explanation. And also, this theory is incredibly Eurocentric.235 millions people speak French as their daily language. 60% of French speakers are outside of France. It is an official Language in 29 countries.
Anyone who thinks that the French would just “give up” the French language has clearly never met a French person
Excellent point!
@@Trekspertise The same has been said of many cultures. A century ago most Germans would have scoffed at English but today they all learn it and its getting into everyday use. Moreover the expansion of English into the Latin, African, and Asian spheres continues to subsume French. English utility only increases as more learn it. Perhaps in time French pride will allow the rise of English or perhaps migrations of peoples that share a common language in English and not French will displace it.
En effet!
@@concidius oh, too be clear, most French people today speak pretty fluent English, but they are VERY proud of the French language
@@concidius Remember that French used to be what English is today (in effect, English has become the "lingua Franca" as odd as it is). Most predictions are English will give way to Chinese or Japanese some day. Then you have Blade Runner or Firefly, I guess
My in-universe explanation is that Picard started as a legit French schoolboy. When he went to Starfleet Academy, he became interested in American culture, including Dixon Hill. You can see a bit of "Johnny" Picard's personality in Tapestry. As he climbed the ranks, he sought increasing dignity and respectability, adopted an English accent (possibly with help from the universal translator), and became an anglophile. His tendency towards Shakespeare and Earl Grey is a sign of his interests, not his heritage.
Good possibilities. And Data's remark?
I think it likely that, rather than France being wiped out and an artificially restored by it’s neighbors, refugees returned to France after it was safe to return and worked to rebuild it. It would explain the mix of cultural elements in Picard’s upbringing. Either way, France must have been restored rather prominently since Paris is the Federation Capital in the 24th century.
Let's face it, Picard is used as a sort of catch-all European to add interesting character quirks and Earth history tidbits that are beyond the American cultural and historical limitations
An interesting theory. As a Scot I have always loved the fact that Scotty was from Scotland(even if the accent was little dodgy, ha ha). Looking forward to the new content coming up. I love your video essays.
Glad you enjoyed it
I met a guy in Scotland once with the most incredible accent.
He was Brazilian and moved there and then learnt English from the locals, so he spoke good English but with a half Brazilian half Highlands/Perthshire accent.
To my southern English ear, it was pretty wild.
@@TheYopogo I love that! Thanks for sharing.
3:05 "ah yes, we are everything females from Paris" - Picard
It's worth noting that, if I remember correctly, France's nuclear posture is designed *not* to prevent it's destruction in an nuclear exchange, but to preserve enough firepower to exact retribution afterward (which is to say: they rely heavily on nuclear submarines, among other choices regarding their nuclear disposition.)
I played with the idea that under a united Earth government cultural institutions would continue to grow and thrive as they always have. Kinda like breaking up the United States or Canada into states and provinces. Part of a larger organization is just the beginning, each one is very unique and different.
You have good points and some less good points:
-There is only one reference to French being an obscure language and dozens examples of there being nothing wrong with France.
-I like the explanation of Picard and his brother growing up in England. That would solve that problem and leaves only Data's Code of Honor remark as the basis for this theory.
-While France accounts for the lion's share of French's native speakers there are still other native speakers and in France hundreds of millions who use it as a second language. Obliterate France and the French language still isn't obscure.
I agree. I would propose that Data was just unaware of the cultural importance of French to humans from Earth, despite it being an obscure language in the context of the whole Federation.
@@summertilling I think that makes more sense.
I think the line is a plot-hole. An analytical android would not say something as imprecise and subjective as "obscure"; nor would he, with Federation values ingrained in his programming, be a dick about someone else's culture.
Good points. So how to we rectify Data's comment in-universe?
@@Trekspertise Looking at what other have written, I propose this: Data meant it was an obscure language in the context of the Federation. Picard didn't understand that, so got annoyed. Data agreed that it was important on Earth, but was cut off before he could explain his Federation-centric intention.
In later years Data would learn more about interacting with humans and would understand that they like to look at things more human-centric. He would not have made the comment 6-7 years later.
Naturally out-of-universe, they just liked to throw stuff in to make it sound futuristic. If you thought this was an easy theory, try to explain in-universe the early TNG references to the Klingons having joined the Federation (Samaritan Snare, Matter of Honor). I dare you :D
Though I will delight in all that comes out from Trekspertise at any pace, I am especially stoked to see a take on Vulcan history akin to your magnificent Klingon history two-parter.
"The Vulcan Diaspora" is definitely a topic we've written up and are looking to create ;)
Love to see your channel show up on my feed
We love being there :)
I think Gene Roddenberry was just making it up as he went along and that is why TOS and season 1 of TNG are so rife with inconsistencies. Things didn't really get fleshed out until he was no longer directly involved with production.
That theory sounds really good, it feels like it fits the universe.
It's not just the Picards, though. That guy who wanted to poach Picard for a project to raise an artificial continent from the sea floor also spoke with an English accent. My own personal theory has always been that La Barre took in enough English refugees during WW3 that the local accent became British sounding, but places like Paris retained a French accent.
OOOOO Altered Carbon and Raised by Wolves!!!!! I love the channel. Keep it up! Can we here more about other countries too?
More to come!
I always thought Picard had an English accent because most French people that learn English learn it from UK English speakers. So the English that French people try to imitate is that from the UK. Picard is probably just really good at English because people in Europe learn languages better than the US and I’m sure education methods for other languages are more advanced.
There is the fact a large portion of western France has belonged to England at one time or anther so there’s a possibility that during the time of chaos that England reacquired some of it The Port of Calais with the channel tunnel being seen as a major gateway into into the UK would want to keep control of ) at the start of any conflict followed by expanding down the coast
Based on references to Gaullist and neo-Trotskyist factions in the country at the time, I'm guessing the country fell into civil war. Perhaps it was seen in retrospect as a sort of opening act to the greater global conflict, with one faction supported by the Eastern Coalition against the other.
Please leave an entire phonetic library of your soothing voice. We might need it fir iur future starship computers. :-)
I'm still upset they never used Majel Barrett's phonetic library for PIC
I mean...Kyle is down.
Coquelles France is 50.5 railway miles from Folkestone UK via the Channel Tunnel ( (31 miles from Calais France to Dover UK by commercial automobile/walk on ferry). France and the UK have shared a basically open border for decades. Thousands commute each way every day for work, shopping, etc. Many, many British people in the UK speak French. Many, many French people in France speak English.
None of what I have asserted above is theory, or fiction.
The French and the British cultures have had a lot in common, since before modern France and modern UK, beginning with the Norman invasion of England, at the Battle of Hastings, in 1066.
You might want to get out a little more. Thumbs up on the video though. If you're in the US, Happy Thanksgiving from California, if not, then Happy Thursday :-)
4:06 One comment, Ronald Guttman is from Flanders specifically. The first language in Flanders is Flemish, a dialect of Dutch, not French like in Wallonië (the other big province of Belguim) So his accent isn't French lol. I think he learned French at school. I can hear his Flemish accent shining through on a few words.
But is that his first language?
@@Trekspertise I believe so
Another factor is that French could also be considered a classical language, an ancestor of several languages. French varies, especially in France.
I saw an interview withMarina Sirtis (Councilor Troi) in which she stated that she used to wonder about Picard having an English accent when he was supposed to be French is that England used the Chunnel to successfully invade and conquer France.
Welcome back. You've been missed!
Good to be back. New video in a few weeks.
2:44, I guess Gul Dukat likes to spend his time in the holosuites too...
03:40 I have literally met a Frenchman with a perfect British accent in Hanoi, I was genuinely surprised about it.
7:09: France wasn't Catholic. The French Revolution saw to that. Trafalgar was also a Napoleonic Wars battle. It's probably better to say that it pitted Napoleonic France & Spain against Britain. . .
What about all the other countries that speak French, like most of West and central Africa, Quebec, Guyana, Haiti, and Madagascar? Not to mention all the French speakers throughout Europe. French is one of the most commonly spoken languages in the world, and if France itself disappeared the language would still be commonly used all over.
My scenario:
1. Maybe only the backwater parts of France survived WWIII. Places like Paris were annihilated by atomic bombs (I will how explain how Paris had returned later), while the more isolated rural areas survived.
2. Also in the days before the bombs fell in WWIII, a lot of Brits crossed the Chunnel to take refuge in France which would lead to a large English settlement in Western France, maybe an with "Englandtown" or two in major French metropolises.
3. Now Francophone Africa is little more tricky. Maybe Africans during this time returned to native languages or at least a creole language mixing French, native language, and maybe (pending Africa being relatively unaffected) any future immigrants.
4. The Paris (along San Francisco and other major cities in Star Trek) is really a New Paris. The old Paris was annihilated by nuclear weapons but the Earth (maybe with Vulcan help and tech) removed the radiation from the grounds of old Paris and built a replica city on the remains. The treasures of the Louvre would have been transferred to underground bunkers before the onset of WWIII and maybe parts of the Eiffel Tower (sorry I think the Eiffel Tower in Picard's Life was Eiffel Tower 2.0). Also the rebuilding hypothesis also explains why there is a San Francisco in Star Trek too.
In TNG's Code of Honor French translation, Data refers to 'Old French', not current French. It might just be an ignorant American point of view from the writers. TNG was still in its infancy and character development is often sloppy during these early seasons. It is probable that the writers just dound the said expression and thought, as a cliché that it was still in use in the 80s...
'Sacrebleu' is not used anymore in France. for example.
The theory, for what it's worth can make sense but I might be too much biased as a French myself to fully buy it. As for me, I see more of a joint effort from French and international aid to rebuild France but it was not entirely destroyed although it must have suffered a great deal of damage during WW3.
And finding British actors is still easier for an American based production than finding French actors that will need to be dubbed to be understood in English which might be cumbersome to the audience, audience can manage a few sentances in Klingon every now and then, but having a very badly spoken English, (in the 80s, no French actors could have stood the role in English and been taken seriously enough, having good English speaking French actors is very recent (also in the genral population, French are slowly getting better at speaking English but trust me, it wasn't the case 40 years ago ! look at Macron... and look at a few years ago when Sarkozy was president, the Minister for Foreign affairs, PhilDouse Blazy didn't know a single word of Enfglish ! WTF for the first diplomat of the country... they had to postpone meetings with Condolezza Rice, the US equivalent at the time, several times to find a suitable translater... )
So what I mean, is that you can't really forge a theory on what the series material gives you, it is biased by production methods, audience needs and actors availability.
Also we can assume that the big warlike relations between France, UK and Spain throughout the centuries will have different family branches scattered in the 3 countries as well.
Youre alive!
And hopefully for a while...
Picard is also the name of a region in France which no one seems to have mentioned.
Good video, but a large portion of Algeria and sub-Saharan Africa speak French as a first language, or at least a lingua francs, it wouldn't be the end of French were the country itself destroyed barring vestiges in England, Belgium and Switzerland.
We did mention that it was global language. Only makes the mystery more mysterious.
I've always just imagined that French people in Trek spoke with British accents because of France's proximity to Britain, but this theory is quite interesting
Now what I had believed is that the Brits took control of France in the early war, forcing French integration into the United Kingdoms of Great Britain (and France now, I guess)
Haberak, Grande Normandie, please!
I offer another theory which concerns only Data’s comment: French is obscure because the minority languages of France went through a revival. ‘Proper French’ is based on the Parisian dialect and is strictly monitored by the Académie Française. There are plenty of other minority dialects spoken across France, including the language of Picardy called Picard or Chtimi. My theory is that there is now Parisian, Picard, Walloon, Norman etc. and the catch-all French term has fallen out of favor as a first language but is still spoken as a shared language.
It’s pretty similar to what has happen with German, Norwegian, and English and it includes the Easter egg of Picard possibly speaking Picard.
As a French, I'm both revolted and extatic ; very french. :P
Now, as a matter of fact the erratic writing of early-TNG may have to be taken with more than a grain of salt. And let's have a look at what we've got that can work.
As of today, french language and french culture span far abroad, between the french expatriates everywhere around and the Francophony lingustic alliance, between its culture influence and its small territories around the world. Also, this is far from being recent: concerning the Picard, it's been quite common to see people fighting for kingdoms that weren't theirs when they found an interest in it, material or spiritual, and during the religious wars between catholics and reformed christians a lot of reformed noble families emigrated... to England. So, the idea of an old and proud french family that grew mainly british through the centuries isn't far fetched, and if you consider what the name Picard may tell us about the family's origins they seem to have been moving a lot!
As of today, also, France has a peculiar strategic position. If we get into WW3 logic, NATO's plans consider the german valley around Rammstein as THE line of defense against an eastern assault if it was to happen. If it was to fail, France would be next in line and more or less screwed. So, maybe Germany, France and others got wiped out in a major initial push, yes. Now, did french identity die there and then... ? I'd say no, but considering the survivors locally and the now-diaspora around the world and the difficulties it would have to maintain cohesion and substance after the fall of metropolitan France and during the dark decades following, it'd have taken a heavy toll. After all, current studies point out that a language can be engineered to almost disppear in a generation. So, maybe french was destroyed, intentionally or as a consequence of a lack of academic support, and it would become a part of a common identity the "French" would cling to with pride in private. Let's just look at the cajun and learn from their experience.
Then, after the pacification of the world and the birth of the world government, plans could happen to reform the french nation. But would it be that pushed by international accords, or would it be more of a spontaneous thing? If the "French" kept a grasp of their lost nation throughout the world, we may simply begin to see a spontaneous return to roots of a part of them. There would obviously be trouble between the actual people living in France by now and the immigrants, which would possibly need international oversight, and obviously every French wouldn't go back to the old french territory. Lives got built and spent abroad and a diaspora would probably persist for centuries, if not forever. It may not be seen as an issue by then, since the existence of a diaspora often comes with a net of influence abroad, that could serve the reputation and the interests of a "french revival".
So, yes, Jean-Luc Picard is a very british man with a fondness for his french roots ; but is that problematic if we take such a situation? Taking over the old vinyard could have been an old family debate that came to fruition only recently with the marriage of Picard Sr with a French woman and the peculiar relation of Robert with roots in general. Jean-Luc could have been exposed to french culture, and parisian especially, and be peculiarly fond of it, but he may still be an english academic with a strong british culture base, furthermore leaving to go to Starfleet Academy in the USA before leaving Earth to serve for his whole adult life.
Jean-Luc Picard is a british man loving France because to him, it's an old family thing and a consequence of both History and his personal life choices. He didn't get a real experience of "France" as an actual thing before he took back the vinyard ad started "living french" in France as an old man that decided himself it would be that way.
France still lives strong, only it's less of a strict definition and more of a half-chosen, half-inherited identity by then, and a "subcultural culture" that many people may look at as a honorable one to behold and keep alive. Thus people would speak french occasionally to feel cool and nice, and Data may say "Look, I'm a French man!" not as a joke, but as a supportive righteous stance : "Look! I spoke french with French. I'm supporting an old, once endangered, now reviving culture. I love you guys! Do your thing!"
With the current situation in the UK and with a proposed WW3 to take into account, it seems unlikely in the extreme that England (for that is all that will remain of the UK) would be in any position to resurrect France.
Much more likely that it would be French speakers from Quebec. And the Englishness of Jean Luc, well that is unlikely to have come from what we now call England. More likely to have come from a New England (no not the one in the US) but where that might reside is hard to see.
A new NEW England? Oh boy.
Note: French was also formed from the Frankish language which was Germanic.
Great video, I think there are more hints I'm TNG about WWIII
Early 2000s there were rumours of a movie set in ww3 but it never materialised
This is kinda along the lines of trying to figure out why Romulans had an Irish accent in Picard.. the actors didn't bother to change their accents to fit in with the show ;-p IMHO I think in centuries to come, not sure on WW3, but that we'll have some form of commonality in culture and language, and some things may drop off over the passage of time. Look at the airline industry - everyone speaks English i.e. pilots and air traffic controllers, in order to avoid everyone having to learn another language for flight control etc.
Forgot about those "cheeky feckers." But also..."change their accents to fit in with the show" assumes that the accents normally used aren't also from somewhere.
@@Trekspertise As to accents and such: Just give good characters, writing, shows and such, and I'm happy.. but I'm still waiting on this from the current people in charge o.0 IN the words of Mike S of RLM, "I miss Star Trek". Side note - I'm almost as old as most of the long lived IPs out there, and for me, I'm happy with what's avail i.e. 50 yrs of work to peruse. So let's leave it alone, put it away and make something new. I feel more sorry for Browncoats who really got gypped on their IP o.0 Hope you and yours are doing well during our current dilemma o.0 Thanks for what you do!
Why would a Romulan having an Irish accent require any more of an explanation than a Romulan having an American accent?
Here's my theory: France wasn't as destroyed as you imply it was, but the major urban areas like Paris, Marseille, Lyon, and others were mostly reduced to rubble. The rural areas, which may include La Barre, however, were spared. And you know what is stronger in the rural areas of France over the urban cores? The regional languages of France. So it could well be that the regional languages have seen a big resurgence in the centuries following first contact, and that Picard was raised primarily speaking a language like Alsatian, Franconian, or Franc-comtois.
Ach I just realized that was Mark Alaimo in Time's Arrow Gul Dukat gets around :)
Though I could be way off because I don't remember the context for Data's line (and I have no way to check right now) is it possible he just meant the language would be obscure to the person he was talking to?
Because even if the rest of the theory presented here is entirely correct, the french language is spoken as a primary tongue in several other European countries (I know of two more myself, and suspect there are others), as well as in places as far apart as North America and Africa... and it's commonplace as a second language among non-native speakers everywhere in the world as well. Also consider the idea that in countries that list it as one of several official languages, keeping the language alive even among people who didn't speak it before could very well become a matter of national pride.
So, while I like the drama of this theory, even if the entire country of France sunk into the Mediterranean and was never seen again I have doubts that that could affect the language to the degree you're describing, and certainly not enough to have it become "obscure". Ultimately I don't think it accounts for Data's line.
Still hope we get the video about the lit verse relaunch of Trek
As a brit i'd much prefer if the theoretical answer for the timeline is that most of southern England was sunk into the ocean basically because it holds so many US bases in WW3 so it was obliterated and Picard's family were refugee's, and this is the reason he is so patriotic to his families foster home.
That is very specific.
Well, I tend to gravitate toward the idea that nations no longer exist in the TNG era. Sure, states exist...regions, states from the former USA as some have been mentioned, but I tend to think that it is likely most major nations as they are known today are gone. Most nations, I theorize, never rebuilt their governments, and a single world government now exists. People still have regional pride...I think your theory still works with this theory.
This makes some sense, it being in its first stages since First Contact being just a decade later would've kinda put the kibosh on it, since well....aliens.
5:04 now i feel Patriotic thank you.
i was just watching S6 E10 ENT
2 minutes till the end
"son of maurice and yvette picard born in lebare france"
Damn, you are ~handsome~
Its just the French.
Interesting video and interesting questions. Thanks for sharing. It raises more questions than it answers them. As a French Canadian, I've always found the Star Trek "french scenes" to be more of a tourist trap filled with clichés. But it's OK. I forgive the series. It goes with the genre. Other cultures have been portrayed in odd ways: character Cosimo as a fake Italian Luigi (Star Trek Voyager, 'Non Sequitur'), the faked Zulu-Africans-like kingdom in TNG's 'Code of Honor', or the good indian full of wisdom cliché in TNG's 'Journey's End', etc.
I think it's more of an hommage than any other thing.
All Star Trek universe is based on core values that resemble those that rose from the French Revolution : reason, the scientific method and liberty. I think it played a big factor in establishing all these hommages. Maybe more than the English culture is willing to admit. (Sorry) We know Roddenberry served in France during WW II. Maybe there are clues to be discovered from there.
As per the argument of the replenishment of France from the UK, I found it weird that we could not have looked for many other French speaking countries. 25% of Canada is fluent un French, Belgium, Antille Islands, many African countries that used to be colonosed by France, etc.
This whole discussion is more about the American Melting Pot point of view. There's no other regionalism than those immigrating ti the US: France, English, Russians, Italians, etc. There is as much difference from southern France culture to the famous Paris' well known accent, than there is difference between Chicago or Biloxi's accents. But it's ok. It's an American series after all. But it's obvious that the American accents are more well diversified than the cliché'd other world accents.
The Paris Skyline is strong Evidence that Paris was destroyed France is hyper protective of its historic skyline of Paris and refuses to allow construction of sky scrapers in the city. Any building that would take away from the renesaunce esthetic or compete with the Eiffel tower is out and I only see that attitude becoming more ridged with time. Unless... of course.... Paris was destroyed and had to be rebuilt, with the Eiffel tower being one of the few remanence that survived.
I think may be it was ravaged by conventional arms
Minor criticism, you are showing the channel islands (UK territory) in the map of France.
I think that's an awesome idea! Haha it really fits!
2:44 omg what's Dukat up to this time?
The more I think about this the more I wonder if it’s not just France, but the majority of mainland Europe. Outside of Russia and Eastern European countries like Belarus (Minsk!), I can’t recall any callouts to Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, or Italy, aside from perhaps historical notes.
It also couldn’t have been nuclear war, otherwise the Picard vineyard would be unviable.
My guess would be either a bio weapon that affected only human life or a plague/pandemic. Perhaps COVID-25 runs rampant through Europe, Russia takes over the old Eastern Bloc as a buffer zone and the UK/Ireland seal themselves off as islands from mainland Europe? Sounds super grizzly for mainland Europe. 😬
By the 24th century the people of France speak Federation Standard with English accents.😂
There is an error in the title at the beginning. It should read «nos excuses à la nation française» ;)
Damn Google Translate
I suppose all languages were rediscovered eventually by the later time travellers out of an intellectual sense of honor and curiosity. I believe, French did survive (didn't fully die out and survived in Canada and USA as well) in Star Trek indefinitely, despite of being considered obscure as in not as much used in terms of amount of Star Trek people. Perhaps it being obscure means that French did survive. Perhaps the accents and languages were most or all preserved. Besides this, there are the 26-31th century time travelers that most certainly recorded many languages in some versions of Star Trek. There of course were Holodeck characters capable of much perfect language usage. The story of Star Trek I have interprested as party multiversionic and very two versionic.
So the Star Trek holodeck characters were impeccable at the languages installed for their use.
I think you’re overthinking it a bit. The world is a smaller place in Picards time. He probably grew up in France and went to the UK for school during the day.
Also a good explanation
• The Universal Translator translates _words_ not accents; accents are like fonts. You can translate a Russian 'Д' to a Latin 'D', but there's no need to translate a cursive '𝒟' to 'D'.
• There was definitely a lot of French stuff in TNG with all that wine and such; Data's line is definitely out of place. Maybe cultures just blended together over time à la the _South Park_ episode "Goobacks". 🤔
One problem with this theory is the fact that French is the third biggest global language after Spanish and English (not including Chinese which is highly local and not spoken in colonies). French is spoken in several European countries besides France, as well as Canada and huge areas of North and West Africa. So unless WWIII also obliterated Africa, it doesn’t fully explain Data’s comment. Perhaps following Earth’s unification there was an effort to reinvigorate native languages and wipe out colonial languages? Hmm so much we don’t know about post-WWIII Earth.
Minor note, I think O'Brien shows the same level of patriotism for Ireland that JLP does for France
In 2020 six million seems like a super low deatht-toll for a potential WWIII.
Not to mention all the non-human "accents" that show up throughout the franchise. One could do an entire video on that subject. A big one too, and a really good one.
(hint hint)
Picard may have learned English from an English teacher. That's typical in Europe, where I live.
Even the best speakers of English as a second language keep some of their native accent
Yes, but Picard's accent is VERY ENGLISH. Native English.
My theory for Picard's english frenchness is that at some point leading up to WW3, something terrible happened in Britain (like the rise of a dictator or a civil war) and as a result, a huge amount of people fled GB, settling in France in sufficient numbers that even when they integrate with the local French population, enough english culture and accents remains to stick out like a sore thumb even 400 years in the future
I might be writing this too early, but I've always rationalized Picard's accent simply as a casting. Obviously no one other than Stewart could be Picard and it would be silly to have part of the main cast maintaining a put on accent. This is why is why guest character woul be more likely to be written in with their native accents. Now for the England sh habits of Picard, I personally thought these were probably a bit of joke the writers slipped in. This supposed proud Frenchman was English in every possible way, makes a pretty good kind of wink wink, nudge nudge joke.
The only French I know is "Jacques Cousteau eats escargot."
Why does Picard sing 'Heart of Oak' - The anthem of the Royal Navy in 10 forward that one time?
Cause he's British?
Ending France sounds very German too.
I say chances are that France suffered a lot either from the eugenics wars or WW3. The rebuild theory makes a lot of sense.
Beyond that its surely ironic to hear Americans talk about accents for the language of England :)
Ironic, why?
@@Trekspertise By Linguistic Standards, "American English" is an accent itself, but hardly ever considered as such.
Which then makes it ironic to me If Americans talk about other (mostly european influenced) accents.
You then have other French speaking regions like parts of Canada. French origin people are very possessive of their language too.
Much more probable that Data got a bad throw away line in the script. Which seems to be the case. You could also equally ask what happened to German, Russian and Chinese. The issue is the script writers speak and write for an English audience.
As many French terms are used in English these would be in the Universal translator. Meaning English speakers could have French translated and not know.
Yes. That's obviously what happened. Bad lines are half the franchise. The fun of it is trying to figure out an in-universe explanation :)
@@Trekspertise which is what I did in the second post, anyone who didn't understand the French words would hear a translation. Therefore the language would become niche and Federation staff would need to know English anyway in case of emergency.
Weird, I don't remember Data saying that. I always assumed Picard could be speaking French but the universal translator was doing its job.
Did you ever go on that trip to Antarctica?
Oh yes! Did you not see the videos?!
@@Trekspertise I just found your second channel. I plan to check them out =)
Now TP needs to visit La Barre, France!
I was just thinking about when I'd see your next video earlier this morning. Coincidence? Probably.
We read minds.
Go ahead and order that pizza, too.
@@Trekspertise did that yesterday. 🤣
Nice beard.
1:18 You know I used to be a amateur francophone, I still take offense of that line with Picard. If anything, the logic looks like French might actually be on par with English if not more important in a unified earth. But no, Trek chose English. Which, I can't complain because I am a native English speaker but at the same time I am like "Yeah no."
Plus, I can accept Picard is French and British. He just did a dragon ball fusion dance off screened and we just accept it. Because where is the evidence that proves me wrong?
Checkmate Trek Fans.
French is an obscure language to Data because he:
1. was activated first somewhere in space
2. knows an unfathomable amount of languages
3. it is not one of the active main languages as clearly earth chose english.
Occam's Razor. Maybe the best explanation.
Who told you Earth chosed English?
@@dominiquebeaulieu the Enterprise NX crew speak English and the displays are in English, plus they had no universal translator at that time
Earth can not have chosen English : anglophones are only 5% of Earth's population and France would oppose.
This is a good point. Yet I don't recall Data often qualifying something as obscure aside from this one, thus raising an eyebrow. Either this is a script written too quickly, or this has some meaning that made us come here to talk about it.
A third option would be that it was meant on purpose to make us talk about it at some point, but let's not jump into plot theories ;)
Fun fact about us Europeans: When we learn English, our teachers usually teach British English. Add a year abroad into the mix and we pick up the local accent and the occasional mannerism.
It doesn't seem to be universally true. Because I remember years ago when I was in a relationship with this Danish woman, she spoke English with a posh English accent (mixed together with a Danish accent). And as a brit with a posh English accent myself, I loved that about her. It seems like lots of people I meet for whom English is their second language, learn it from American movies and TV shows mostly. Even if they learn the language in school with British accents, the huge amount of American TV shows and movies that exist actually end up influencing their accent more than the school classes do. Because they really _WANT_ to learn English, specially so they can easily watch these movies and TV shows. So usually most people I meet that learned English as a second language, have more of an American accent. Certainly from places like Spain or Germany or France or Italy etc. But especially if they're from places like South America. They have no reason to learn the British accent version of English over there. They're closer to the US, and may want to even emigrate there
has anyone considered that data would call french obscure simply because in the grand scope of the galaxy it is obscure compared to other languages
My theory involves the Borg, time travel, and croissants. I think you're theory is more sound, but mine is more fun.
I had assumed that the Borg, time-travel and croissants elements of the theory weren't mentioned because they go without saying.
La résistance est futile
@MetaSynForYourSoul - It's spelled "YOUR" 🤦🏻♂️
@@customfantasyhotwheels Why did you comment this? Did you think I didn't know that? Is that tiny mistake, that if I remember right was the fault of voice typing the comment, worth a face palm? Truly? Is correcting grammar on the internet what you do for fun? Have you never made a mistake? I prob would've corrected it when I saw the comment next, but I'm gonna leave it like that, see how many more like you I get.
@@MetaSynForYourSoul - Pride in ignorance, okay, I get it. You do you and continue going about your life lazily "voice typing".
I just figured he learned English at a British school? I like the idea of the world coming together to bring back a culture
It is a nice idea =)
Exactly. A wealthy family like his would have the option to send their children abroad; it would also explain why his brother has an accent as well, and his nephew. Having spent a good portion of his childhood there, he would speak English impeccably, and no doubt have picked up on a few British habits. For what it's worth, England does have excellent boarding school (they're called "public schools", strangely) where families have sent their children for generations; it seems logical to assume this tradition would extend into the future as well.
"Obscure" could be just early Data comparing French to other languages of the Federation or the entire Alpha and/or Beta Quadrants.
In a world of universal translators, where Saru complains in the late 2250's that apparently he is the only one who bothered to learn several Human languages, it is not inconcievable that most languages widely spoken today would regress into being spoken by a much smaller core of native speakers.
Possibly, but at the same time that would be a case for nearly all of Earth's languages and a lot of Alien languages. The basis of this theory is that Data, a person who can learn sign language in minutes, regards French as obscure and none of the people around him seemed to recognise French that easily, whilst crewmembers in the past have noticed Russian and Spanish in TOS and DS9 respectively.
Out of universe explanation is that it's probably an unintentional statement by the writers, and an alternative explanation is that Data may have goofed and got mislead by French. But it's still fun to theorise
I've always assumed that Picard is speaking french, but that the translator translates it into Posh english :P
He has other quite English cultural stuff going on.
Like, he loves Shakespeare and Earl Grey and all his favourite literature is English etc.
And whenever we hear someone speaking in a French accent, that's because they're speaking English so it doesn't translate what they're saying.
@@TheYopogo Yeah, but he's also living 350 years in the future, so it's quite possible that during that era France adopted a lot of "old" english customs to the point where it isn't known as english anymore.
I mean ever heard the term "swedish meatballs"? Swedish meatballs was given to Sweden by a turkish chef who came to sweden during 1400s... i mean it's become "swedish" over the centuries even if it was turkish from the start.
Same thing could be with Picards mannerisms.
@@katiecat9353 Exactly! In Discovery there was an episode where the translator malfunctioned, so Pike started speaking with what appeared to be french and later german.
I assume germans hear everyone speaking german, swedes speaking swedish etc.... the same with other species's languages.
@@Mukation That's a very good point, but I think it applies better to food and customs and things more than, for example, literature.
Like, I don't think he ever quotes Balzac, but he talks about Shakespeare all the time.
Could just be coincidence, lots of French people like Shakespeare even today, but still.
I too have a theory: Picard had an English teacher with a British accent so that's how Picard learned to speak English. That's it. That is literally what countless people around the world who learn English as a second language do. Also, why there are not similar conspiracy theories about all the people in Star Trek who are not native English speakers yet have native-level American accent? Why is that never considered weird and needing an explanation? As for Data's comments, certainly from galactic perspective a regional language spoken by a small percentage of people on one planet is 'obscure.'
I love these theories, more please! :)
Star Trek forgot a lot of nations in Africa and Asia speak French as well, because they were former colonies of France. Did they get destroyed as well in world war 3?
A good question. Our thinking is no, that those colonies help to recreate France.
@Jeremiah Boyd is the third world really that dependent on the US though? o_O
I have wondered some of the same things and have a similar head cannon: that France fell and it's culture changed. I missed the French accent of Picard's mother. One potential explanation that does not involve Picard moving to Britain is that different parts of France were differently affected. Perhaps where the Vinaryed is, is in a region of France that was repopulated by the British after WW3? Perhaps his mother is from a part of France or other French speaking part of the world. Meaning Picard learnt French from his mother but culturally British based on the local part of France and his father?
That's a solid theory.
Another theory regarding Nations and Star Trek, O’Brien’s suffering is a metaphor for all the things that have happened to Ireland over the centuries. One of my friends said this to me and the more I think about it, the more it seems true, or maybe it’s just a weird coincidence.
😢 I didnt connect the dots that DS9 was being filmed during the Troubles until season 7. I wonder if the friendship between Bashir, (who is the second most English trek characters who isn’t actually English) and O’Brien was influenced by that.
@@Drowninginantimatter Bashir is English and being brown doesn’t change that.
Miles O'Brien isn't just Irish. I saw somewhere that he was born in Killarney, and so should also be a Kerryman.
All the French words could be loan words in Federation standard like how Japan has adopted English loan words.
And how English has adopted loanwords from Japan and many other languages
@@garret1930 to be sure, English incorporate a great number of French word received through the Normans nearly a millennium ago.
@@antonijaume8498 meh, I know those count as loanwords but I don't really consider them such since the whole Norman conquest thing changed the entire language so drastically. Regardless, you are indeed correct.
"Hypothesis" would be a better word to use, but yeah a very cool idea! :-)
didnt tom harris spend a lot of his time in france around the time he was a cadet? thats why he recreated a french bar on the holodeck - i think set in marseille?
C'est exact!
He did, and we cut some clips out from the final video discussing as much!
I thought his sur name is Perris (sp?)?
@@briangallentine3810 yup whoops ;0
@@Patrick-jj5nh It's Paris - same spelling as the capital of France. ;-)
Probably nothing so drastic, but I won't say this is impossible.
I like this. It certainly explains Picard’s interest in assisting with the Romulans and their efforts to rebuild their culture beyond what The Federation did (or didn’t do) th help.
Here's an idea: Data was trolling Picard with the obscure language comment.
I imagine a rebuilding a 🇫🇷 France would involve a while lot of people from 🇨🇦 Quebec being relocated to France since many of those Quebecers think they're more French then the French.
That...isn't wrong =)
Say, are you really from NZ?
@@Trekspertise Yes.
Just wanna say, I love it. Beautiful place. Made a whole video about traveling around the South island.
@@Trekspertise Thanks
Dans un sens, oui ils sont plus français! ^^ Ils n'utilise pas beaucoup d'anglicismes alors que les français tendent à en incorporer dans le dictionnaire. Donc oui ils parlent mieux français!
"Or when Picard did an accent."
lol we dont talk about *those* shows.