The fact that this device works per spec after 25 years and can also be upgraded to double its measurement spec speaks of engineering and quality of components and manufacturing quality of Tektronics products.
Rise times combine as the square root of the sum of the squares. (This is also how you combine the oscilloscope's bandwidth with the bandwidth of a probe.) Assuming a 350ps scope rise time, the measured 435ps rise for the AliExpress means it's probably around 258ps.
Thanks, that has jogged my memory! 80ps high is pretty poor. I suppose it is fine for testing below 100MHz or so. I should have thought harder, and just gone for the Bodnar pulse gen instead.
Ha! Writing to floppy is a bit slow, but to be fair, it's also kinda nostalgic. You can get a particular brand of floppy emulator of them that allows you to write to USB.
Marvellous! I have two Tek 'scopes already, but not one this far along the line - will have to keep an eye on eBay. Enjoyed the video, clear and easy to follow. Thanks a lot.
I've had a few similar units come through the lab over the years. I wish there was a more readily available example of something that was capable to be hacked like this up to 1 gigahertz. These are pretty hard to get ahold of, and as far as I'm aware it's one of the only exceptions to the rule where one can get such a deal for good-quality high speed measurement. Hopefully there will be others discovered and there will at least be some sort of small supply for people who really need them. Although I've always got a few speedy scopes in the lab..... I can't justify using them for hobby purposes most of the time, or take the time to reconfigure four things outside daily work. Whereas this scope would be an exception and a perfect example and would probably get as much use as any other scope in the lab
Yeah, they are nice scopes and its good they can be upgraded like this. It's a shame there isn't a modern equivalent, surely in this day and age, 1GHz, real time sampling can be done for under $1k...
Thanks for this. I didn't go ahead with this 1GHz upgrade earlier because I thought I had to calibrate it with the Field Adjustment Software that requires a really old PC with the old ISA card to run. I'm guessing based on this video the re-calibration isn't actually required. However, you aren't correct about there being a need for specific GPIB equipment to upgrade to the extended memory over GPIB. I did it with a Mac and an enet/100 adapter quite a while ago. Others have used a Prologix adapter. No need to even open the case. You just need to send over GPIB "PASSWORD PITBULL" and then "WORDCONSTANT:ATPUT 327686,1" with the protection switch activated as in the video. The command is slightly different for the other options.
As I understand it, to do a proper cal you do need the software and leveling head, especially if channel skew is an issue. For amateur stuff though the upgrade is just fine, if you need the bandwidth, and is after all reversible. Thansk for the info, I read there was a specific GPIB card needed, but if this is not the case, I will maybe give it a go.
Is it just me that finds in annoying that scope manufacturers deliberately cap the BW of scopes to force customers to pay a fortune? 1GHz technology has been available at a hardware level in scopes for many years but even today the likes of Tektronix, Keysight and R&S are still producing scopes which are software limited to 100MHz and 200MHz. If you want to enable the BW upgrade from 200MHz to 1GHz you're talking another £10k!! Absolute daylight robbery. Hopefully brands like Siglent and Rigol will continue to improve so "the big three" are forced into stopping this practice of ripping off the customer.
Don't scoff too much at he Dallas NVRAMS. They can drop bytes ANY time after the 10 years. It may only be a byte in the user ram but it also could easily be a calibration value. Mine are 17 years old and the channels seem to all be working correctly. I did the replacement with a new IC from Mouser, at $125 each! Now the scope will be good til mid 2030's. The clock chip does not need to be replaced if you are not using the time-date display. If it fails, the time and date display values will be random but no effect on scope operation. See my video for complete step by step replacement of the IC's.
Thanks, I will replace them when I get time. I have already backed them up in case the worst happens. There is a guy in the states who sells modern replacements I believe.
I got a perfect working tds784c even with upgrades the NewScope LCD conversion kit and NVRAM already replaced for $529 total with shipping. You can get the tds784C, or D models cheap if you watch for them. The C one D revisions are least problematic. Honestly my favorite scope as sold the first one did videos 3 years ago that I completely refurbished used it for close to 3 years and sold it and for a couple months used a HP for a while and missed the Tektronix bought another one recently and definitely not going to sell it as use it more then the HP.
Yep, they are pretty good solid scopes. In the UK though, these things are rare as Hens teeth. The CRT is nice and bright, so no rush to replace it. The NVRAM will get pulled as soon as I get round to it though.
Hello, your video is quite instructive because it sums up most of knowledge on TDS500/800 found on EEVblog forum where myself is a member. However I think with all my respects that your hacking is not real hacking because you have not performed a re-calibration once removing the 4 capacitors on the acquisition board. You just tested one position of Volt/div the bandwidth with Leo Bodnar pulser (I do have myself this excellent product). But the calibration of all voltage case, all channels... one serious problem I've seen, some sellers manipulate the buyers by first easy change the ID resistor. Automatically you'll get 1GHz model on the Banner but then, even if you remove the 4 capacitors, this does not work as simple. Just my 2 cents after using these incredible TDS500/700/C/D and repaired (hacked) 6 more of them.
Now you just need to snag One of those keithley source measure units. Very high precision for quadrant power supply for characterizing semiconductors and stuff. And you can hack the older ones to the high voltage option which would be extremely useful in your lab in particular!
It's the other way around actually. Those able to pay the full price for the premium models subsidize the R&D and production costs of producing the instrument to allow the downgraded units to be able to be sold cheaper to capture more of the market. Which means more hackable scopes in our hands to upgrade for free. :)
Gotta watch for the leaky electrolytic capacitors on the older revisions such as the A's and B's. The C and D models I think use a combination of ceramic and tantalum capacitors.
This is true. I was staying away from the A and B models for this reason. There only place there are 'lytics on the C and D is in the PSU, but that's a job for another day.
@@LesLaboratory No, that's a job for now, especially if you haven't checked the PSU yet. If the caps are leaking they will totally destroy the PCB over time and repairing that kind of damage isn't fun. So if that Tek is something you want to use in the years to come take the time to replace those caps. And if you have to disassemble it anyway you might as well use the opportunity to replace the Dallas timebombs.
Yep exactly the C and D are pretty reliable overall worked on all the revisions and the pre A version were the worst the A and B used the SMD capacitor on the acquisition and front panel boards but haven’t seen them leak as bad as the pre A models. The C and D are the good one, only power supply needs attention as one capacitor that on the secondary side causes ripple and blows pre driver and mosfet. Had to repair that issue a few times on several of them. The other issue is relays on the hybrid frontend go high resistance and I usually replace them and do a recalibrated and will pass usually SPC afterwards.
Les, I think you would be better to design your own sampling, logging, analysis scopes and measurement systems from scratch. You have the skill and patience to upgrade old hardware, but that leaves out a lot of fast memory, processors, communications, and software development improvements in the last couple of years particularly. I think all the scope makers are too limited in their thinking and some coasting on past glories. The needs of today are far more difficult and potentially useful. But today it uses open accessible systems elements, global collaboration, and more open source analysis and processing algorithms. You might like punching buttons and those old (and new) scopes have lots of buttons and dials. But the screens are tiny and expensive overall. I would rather put a processor and data logging into all parts of a system, and then in parallel gather many things. Where now most everything gets forced through one expensive pathway. You might like punching buttons to select options stored in hidden battery dependent locations, but there are better ways and much more powerful ways now. Lay out the duties and responsibilities of the parts of your measurement plans for different things. If you need a 1 Tsps module, do that separately, but integrated into a larger plan. At global scale, the oscilloscope makers are failing society, because they make things that are not designed in conjunction with 8 billion human needs in mind. Just doing the same limited things with more buttons and higher prices. You are really good, but a global community can be better, for everyone. Richard Collins, The Internet Foundation
Thanks for the Super Thanks! I got the scope because it was a means to a measurement I needed to make, but yes, regarding Scope makers, it's like we are still in the 90's with bandwidth etc. There is some interesting technology out there for sampling at high rates, that doesn't appear to have been used widely (for example SAMPIC chips in the USB Wavecatcher), or in some cases at all, which is all rather odd. I am not sure I am a smart enough guy to build something like that from scratch, but there are people out there who are far more knowledgeable,. I am all for democratizing science, engineering and measurement!
For traditional oscilloscope tubes Resolution can be measure in line per mm. I. Some cases this can be many hundreds of lpm. This scope has a magnetic scan tube, not unlike a TV tube, and the resolution is fairly low, that said, because of the nucolor display, there is no distracting shadowmask to blur the display, and the trace looks very sharp. I would argue it looks better than a color LCD of similar resolution. That said, I totally love CRT's, so I am probably biased!
Any recommendations for an affordable path to femtohertz resolution? I just want to detect the time between 2 laser pulses without spending as much as a car...
So, this is possible on a budget at least in principle. At this stage I haven't managed to get hold of a pico/femto second laser to consider building one! But there is time yet! If you are interested look up autocorrelation (and related methods, such as FROG) for this kind of resolution.
you seem like an expert. could you do a video on quantum wave pocket lasers? I read a short article a couple years ago. not much since then. outside of a brief article that the speed is the same thru solids liquids air and vacuum. why there is no interest on the subject is beyond me.
I have one of the USB floppy drives, and will replace it in the end, along with those Dallas chips. For now though, I am capturing data from the VGA port which is real convenient!
The fact that this device works per spec after 25 years and can also be upgraded to double its measurement spec speaks of engineering and quality of components and manufacturing quality of Tektronics products.
I love mine. There's multiple threads about upgrading these on EEVBlog.
For sure. Every Tek I have used has been a thing of beauty!
Rise times combine as the square root of the sum of the squares. (This is also how you combine the oscilloscope's bandwidth with the bandwidth of a probe.) Assuming a 350ps scope rise time, the measured 435ps rise for the AliExpress means it's probably around 258ps.
Thanks, that has jogged my memory! 80ps high is pretty poor. I suppose it is fine for testing below 100MHz or so. I should have thought harder, and just gone for the Bodnar pulse gen instead.
Amazing work, looking forward to seeing what you get done with it!
Got the 784A its a great scope got it for abouy 450-550GBP ....ages ago ..loved the video
Everybody knows the floppy drive on the front speeds a tek scope up by about 25%
Ha! Writing to floppy is a bit slow, but to be fair, it's also kinda nostalgic. You can get a particular brand of floppy emulator of them that allows you to write to USB.
Marvellous! I have two Tek 'scopes already, but not one this far along the line - will have to keep an eye on eBay. Enjoyed the video, clear and easy to follow. Thanks a lot.
You are wlecome!
Excellent video.
That is a lovely scope!
Thanks! It really is a thing of beauty, and still useful decades after its creation!
Great stuff !...cheers.
Amazing art work, friend.
I've had a few similar units come through the lab over the years. I wish there was a more readily available example of something that was capable to be hacked like this up to 1 gigahertz. These are pretty hard to get ahold of, and as far as I'm aware it's one of the only exceptions to the rule where one can get such a deal for good-quality high speed measurement. Hopefully there will be others discovered and there will at least be some sort of small supply for people who really need them.
Although I've always got a few speedy scopes in the lab..... I can't justify using them for hobby purposes most of the time, or take the time to reconfigure four things outside daily work. Whereas this scope would be an exception and a perfect example and would probably get as much use as any other scope in the lab
Yeah, they are nice scopes and its good they can be upgraded like this. It's a shame there isn't a modern equivalent, surely in this day and age, 1GHz, real time sampling can be done for under $1k...
Thanks for this. I didn't go ahead with this 1GHz upgrade earlier because I thought I had to calibrate it with the Field Adjustment Software that requires a really old PC with the old ISA card to run. I'm guessing based on this video the re-calibration isn't actually required.
However, you aren't correct about there being a need for specific GPIB equipment to upgrade to the extended memory over GPIB. I did it with a Mac and an enet/100 adapter quite a while ago. Others have used a Prologix adapter. No need to even open the case.
You just need to send over GPIB "PASSWORD PITBULL" and then "WORDCONSTANT:ATPUT 327686,1" with the protection switch activated as in the video.
The command is slightly different for the other options.
As I understand it, to do a proper cal you do need the software and leveling head, especially if channel skew is an issue. For amateur stuff though the upgrade is just fine, if you need the bandwidth, and is after all reversible.
Thansk for the info, I read there was a specific GPIB card needed, but if this is not the case, I will maybe give it a go.
You should make a new label for your scope
I really should, I think I saw some a while back, but can't remember where...
I just used a sharpie.
Is it just me that finds in annoying that scope manufacturers deliberately cap the BW of scopes to force customers to pay a fortune? 1GHz technology has been available at a hardware level in scopes for many years but even today the likes of Tektronix, Keysight and R&S are still producing scopes which are software limited to 100MHz and 200MHz. If you want to enable the BW upgrade from 200MHz to 1GHz you're talking another £10k!! Absolute daylight robbery. Hopefully brands like Siglent and Rigol will continue to improve so "the big three" are forced into stopping this practice of ripping off the customer.
Don't scoff too much at he Dallas NVRAMS. They can drop bytes ANY time after the 10 years. It may only be a byte in the user ram but it also could easily be a calibration value. Mine are 17 years old and the channels seem to all be working correctly. I did the replacement with a new IC from Mouser, at $125 each! Now the scope will be good til mid 2030's. The clock chip does not need to be replaced if you are not using the time-date display. If it fails, the time and date display values will be random but no effect on scope operation. See my video for complete step by step replacement of the IC's.
Thanks, I will replace them when I get time. I have already backed them up in case the worst happens. There is a guy in the states who sells modern replacements I believe.
I got a perfect working tds784c even with upgrades the NewScope LCD conversion kit and NVRAM already replaced for $529 total with shipping.
You can get the tds784C, or D models cheap if you watch for them. The C one D revisions are least problematic.
Honestly my favorite scope as sold the first one did videos 3 years ago that I completely refurbished used it for close to 3 years and sold it and for a couple months used a HP for a while and missed the Tektronix bought another one recently and definitely not going to sell it as use it more then the HP.
Yep, they are pretty good solid scopes. In the UK though, these things are rare as Hens teeth. The CRT is nice and bright, so no rush to replace it. The NVRAM will get pulled as soon as I get round to it though.
Hello, your video is quite instructive because it sums up most of knowledge on TDS500/800 found on EEVblog forum where myself is a member. However I think with all my respects that your hacking is not real hacking because you have not performed a re-calibration once removing the 4 capacitors on the acquisition board. You just tested one position of Volt/div the bandwidth with Leo Bodnar pulser (I do have myself this excellent product). But the calibration of all voltage case, all channels... one serious problem I've seen, some sellers manipulate the buyers by first easy change the ID resistor. Automatically you'll get 1GHz model on the Banner but then, even if you remove the 4 capacitors, this does not work as simple. Just my 2 cents after using these incredible TDS500/700/C/D and repaired (hacked) 6 more of them.
Now you just need to snag One of those keithley source measure units. Very high precision for quadrant power supply for characterizing semiconductors and stuff. And you can hack the older ones to the high voltage option which would be extremely useful in your lab in particular!
A man can dream! One might show up eventually! There is so much stuff on my watchlist!
These companies software blocking hardware to squeeze more money out of people is disgusting.
It's the other way around actually. Those able to pay the full price for the premium models subsidize the R&D and production costs of producing the instrument to allow the downgraded units to be able to be sold cheaper to capture more of the market.
Which means more hackable scopes in our hands to upgrade for free. :)
@@TERRAOperativeOriginal yeah, it's absolutely disgusting.. and I agree with the hacking.. and it's lawful
Gotta watch for the leaky electrolytic capacitors on the older revisions such as the A's and B's. The C and D models I think use a combination of ceramic and tantalum capacitors.
This is true. I was staying away from the A and B models for this reason. There only place there are 'lytics on the C and D is in the PSU, but that's a job for another day.
@@LesLaboratory No, that's a job for now, especially if you haven't checked the PSU yet. If the caps are leaking they will totally destroy the PCB over time and repairing that kind of damage isn't fun. So if that Tek is something you want to use in the years to come take the time to replace those caps.
And if you have to disassemble it anyway you might as well use the opportunity to replace the Dallas timebombs.
Yep exactly the C and D are pretty reliable overall worked on all the revisions and the pre A version were the worst the A and B used the SMD capacitor on the acquisition and front panel boards but haven’t seen them leak as bad as the pre A models. The C and D are the good one, only power supply needs attention as one capacitor that on the secondary side causes ripple and blows pre driver and mosfet. Had to repair that issue a few times on several of them. The other issue is relays on the hybrid frontend go high resistance and I usually replace them and do a recalibrated and will pass usually SPC afterwards.
yeap, interesting video, thanks! Could you share how did the DS1054z? thanks.
Thanks! I followed instructions on the EEVBlog forum here: www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-hack/
@@LesLaboratory Thanks man
That Laptop is straight up fossilized
Its newer than it looks. It's a Late model CF-31 Toughbook. This video was edited on this machine 😉
@@LesLaboratory That explains a few things... what software are you using for editing? I suppose you're also doing that on Linux?
Les, I think you would be better to design your own sampling, logging, analysis scopes and measurement systems from scratch. You have the skill and patience to upgrade old hardware, but that leaves out a lot of fast memory, processors, communications, and software development improvements in the last couple of years particularly. I think all the scope makers are too limited in their thinking and some coasting on past glories. The needs of today are far more difficult and potentially useful. But today it uses open accessible systems elements, global collaboration, and more open source analysis and processing algorithms.
You might like punching buttons and those old (and new) scopes have lots of buttons and dials. But the screens are tiny and expensive overall. I would rather put a processor and data logging into all parts of a system, and then in parallel gather many things. Where now most everything gets forced through one expensive pathway. You might like punching buttons to select options stored in hidden battery dependent locations, but there are better ways and much more powerful ways now. Lay out the duties and responsibilities of the parts of your measurement plans for different things. If you need a 1 Tsps module, do that separately, but integrated into a larger plan. At global scale, the oscilloscope makers are failing society, because they make things that are not designed in conjunction with 8 billion human needs in mind. Just doing the same limited things with more buttons and higher prices.
You are really good, but a global community can be better, for everyone.
Richard Collins, The Internet Foundation
Thanks for the Super Thanks!
I got the scope because it was a means to a measurement I needed to make, but yes, regarding Scope makers, it's like we are still in the 90's with bandwidth etc.
There is some interesting technology out there for sampling at high rates, that doesn't appear to have been used widely (for example SAMPIC chips in the USB Wavecatcher), or in some cases at all, which is all rather odd.
I am not sure I am a smart enough guy to build something like that from scratch, but there are people out there who are far more knowledgeable,. I am all for democratizing science, engineering and measurement!
Sweet scope. I wonder how it compares to a modern GHz scope. I'm usually working with 6GHz 12bit Lecroy Scopes.
Thanks! Wow, 6GHz, the stuff of dreams right there!
@@LesLaboratory still 8 GHz is the one xD
Didn't you once tell me that oscilloscopes all have super high resolution screens as in way higher than any tv or monitor?
For traditional oscilloscope tubes Resolution can be measure in line per mm. I. Some cases this can be many hundreds of lpm.
This scope has a magnetic scan tube, not unlike a TV tube, and the resolution is fairly low, that said, because of the nucolor display, there is no distracting shadowmask to blur the display, and the trace looks very sharp. I would argue it looks better than a color LCD of similar resolution. That said, I totally love CRT's, so I am probably biased!
These TDS 500/600/700 series scopes have a display resolution of 640x480 pixels.
What is "attack wiki" ?
Any recommendations for an affordable path to femtohertz resolution? I just want to detect the time between 2 laser pulses without spending as much as a car...
So, this is possible on a budget at least in principle. At this stage I haven't managed to get hold of a pico/femto second laser to consider building one! But there is time yet! If you are interested look up autocorrelation (and related methods, such as FROG) for this kind of resolution.
Cool! Is that works with tektronix tds 724d as well?
I know you can option up the TDS724, but I haven't see anything about relating to bandwidth hacking. Have a look on the EEVBlog forums.
you seem like an expert. could you do a video on quantum wave pocket lasers? I read a short article a couple years ago. not much since then. outside of a brief article that the speed is the same thru solids liquids air and vacuum. why there is no interest on the subject is beyond me.
Is it this one: newatlas.com/physics/spacetime-wave-packets-laser-light-refraction/
@@LesLaboratory close enough. dose any one understand it?
Great scope find! Thought about putting in a USB floppy emulator when time comes to swap out those Dallas modules?
I have one of the USB floppy drives, and will replace it in the end, along with those Dallas chips. For now though, I am capturing data from the VGA port which is real convenient!
@@LesLaboratory Nice that it has VGA. That works!