Unit Design 101 - Myrmidons
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
- Welcome to Unit Design 101, where we break down the overall factors that make units useful in Fire Emblem and beyond. Whether you're a romhack creator or merely interested in overall design, this resource is for you.
And yes, I had to throw in TLP footage. How could I not, with Kelik being the Edgiest Myrmidon to ever Myrm?
Want to know what the next project is gonna be? Head on down to my Discord and find out!
/ discord
Channel members got access to this video early. Get all my videos as soon as they are uploaded, plus bonus gameplay videos, shoutouts in my videos, and more, by joining the LaguzGuard for less than a dollar a month!
/ @mythrilzenith - เกม
I was a simple kid. I see a guy with a sword do two back flips and a shadow clone jutsu just to hit a guy, he stays.
I am a simple adult. I see what you describe, myrmidon stays!
Double points if the myrmidon is a cute anime girl!
I never realized why the myrmidons come with a killing edge. I also tent to like trainees and specialists, so this made me realize why I like myrmidons so much.
Yeah, it's to flag their late game crit specialty as well as to try to make their melee combat stand out. Sure, you can always move that killing edge around to anyone else with C rank swords, which is why the gba version of the Wo Dao exists to FORCE you to keep the sword on the myrmidon.
Wow I made an entire video on Myrmidons and totally forgot the Wo Dao... eh, oh well.
This is a good point, I'd normally recruit a myrmidon, say thanks for the killing edge, and bench them. Wo Dao is definitely a better designed weapon because you can't do that
@@BadAtFireEmblemHey I see you on every video it’s insane.
@@voltron77 I get around :P
I almost always use the early game myrmidon in my first play throughs of Fire Emblem games. "Objectively" speaking, their high speed and skill are usually overkill. Other units are likely to meet certain thresholds with better damage output and survivability to boot.
Still, there's something pleasing to me about a unit who is practically guaranteed to hit their attacks and consistently double.
Myrmidons ARE oddly satisfying to use. I won't lie, while Mia and Guy never really grabbed me, I've always been a huge Joshua and Edward fan.
FE6 Rutger: Hello there.
@@auraguard0212Rutger is actually really interesting about other aspects of unit design, as outside of Hard Mode he's honestly very unremarkable but the Hard Mode bonuses completely shift his performance thanks to the bonuses.
@@auraguard0212 Rutger is the exception to the "usually" part of high speed and skill being overkill.
I remember there was a rom hack back in the day (I don't remember what it was called.. sorry) that actually aimed to fix this issue by having skill impact damage as well. I believe how it worked was that for every 5 hit over 100 the unit possessed, they did an extra point of damage. This lead to Myrmidons overtly high skill actually counting for something since they at least got a few extra points of damage out of it which gave them roughly the same damage as Mercenaries but with less control over the weapon triangle. I've always been sad that a similar change never took off either in fan games or the core series itself because it made a lot of units that were ordinarily not viable a lot of fun to use.
Shadow Dragon Navarre is an especially sad case in my opinion since he exists in a game where the enemies on the highest difficulties have good speed stats and joins at a time in the game where the large majority of your cast will not double anything at all (and some of your slower units will even get doubled by some of the faster enemies). So you would think that having a myrmidon in this context would be incredibly valuable, however there are a few issues.
1. Ogma joins a chapter earlier with MORE speed than Navarre (and more strength for that matter). The mercenary is literally faster than the myrmidon and has a whole extra chapter full of slower axe units to grind for an extra level or two.
2. To make it even worse, Ogma has the same sword rank as Navarre at base, meaning that the killing edge that he starts with in his inventory isn't even exclusive to him.
3. In Shadow Dragon, the attack speed formula is as follows: Attack Speed = Speed - (Strength - Weapon Weight), meaning that having a higher strength stat translates to more speed when using heavier weapons. Since Navarre only has 5 strength at base and the killing edge has a weight of 6, Navarre actually has less speed than displayed when using it. This is made even worse by the fact that the killing edge slows Navarre down enough to the where he GETS DOUBLED by the boss of his join chapter. The myrmidon, which is supposed to be your overkill speed unit can get doubled (and hence one-rounded) in his join chapter, while his mercenary counterpart, Ogma, can take on the chapter 3 boss without too much difficulty.
This is just talking about his short term viability. Starting in a sword locked class means that Navarre will have E rank lances, Axes, Bows, etc. if he switches into a better class like cavalier/paladin or dracoknight (after promotion). If Navarre wants to use any of the more useful effective weapons, he will have to spend multiple chapters grinding weapon rank using only iron weapons. Its sad to see the "original myrmidon" so thoroughly outclassed by his mercenary rival.
They did Navarre SUCH a disservice to his role in FE1 and FE3 Book 1. In those games, Navarre's lack of bulk and base power compared to Ogma was rectified through his significantly higher luck stat, his higher weapon level and generally higher growths. He starts off looking weak and frail compared to Ogma, but with a few levels under his belt from the help of his Killing Edge, Navarre can grow into a more player-phase oriented glass cannon who constantly crits and doesn't have to deal with low% crits like his rival.
Shadow Dragon then takes Navarre, creates a brand new, strictly inferior class just for him, significantly nerfs his growths and BUFFS Oguma everywhere he was nerfed before throwing him into a meta drastically shifted out of his favor. The sad thing is that Navarre isn't the only character who received this treatment in the remake. Radd, the original "trainee" mercenary had his stellar growths nerfed into the ground. Just like before, his mercenary counterpart Caesar had his set of growths practically doubled while still having access to Hero.
Navarre isn’t the "original myrmidon", that class didn’t exist in fe1 or fe3, he only became a myrm in the ds remakes.
@@lightbrand_ Ayra: Hello there!
Shannan: Hello there!
Rutger: Hello there!
A lot of people don't realize the KE + high speed combo gives myrms the best niche of dealing with other sword units, who traditionally lacks true counters since lance units aint doubling or one-shotting them. Best shown in echoes with dreadfighters. But this niche kinda gets screwed over by reclassing and the scaling of some lunatic modes.
Not sure I’ve ever articulated Myrms’ particular impact with the weapon triangle, but as soon as you said, it clicked perfectly with my experience. That’s the sign of really excellent criticism and communication - congratulations on a banger video!
Glad you appreciated it! Yeah, talks about the weapon triangle are interesting, but it's interesting to note that as the community leans away from using myrmidons they also get cooler towards the triangle as a whole, saying it doesn't matter as much. It's all a matter of perspective!
Should mention that RD Zihark is largely seen as one of the best units in the game nowadays (FE9 Zihark is definitely on the lower end, but it's an important distinction to make). High bases, multiple proc skills and good crit rates, gets to tier 3 relatively quickly, and most other DB units being weak at base makes him the defacto best combat unit for DB's part 3 maps. Still wants some training and forethought with stuff like beastfoe/paragon and Volug support on 3-6, but he doesn't have to deal with Jill's low bases so that's an immediate edge for him. Point is, he's fantastic.
I haven't kept up on the modern meta for Radiant Dawn. I know that people have started falling off the Jill hype train but I didn't know they picked up Zihark instead.
Yeah basically people just got too annoyed with Jill's shaky strength and accuracy, and figured it'd be more worthwhile to just support Zihark and deal with not having flight for the part 3 maps on your best combat unit. Turns out flight doesn't make all that much of a difference. Zihark's higher stats are more valuable, at least on hard mode. Normal mode Jill can totally still stomp just like she's always been talked up to do.
Yeah, but he’s outclassed by Mia.
@@voltron77 Mia is better for the tower, but Zihark is still very valuable in the Dawn Brigade chapters where you cannot use Mia
@@vanjagalovic3621 Yeah, I’m not saying that zihark is bad. In the dawn brigade, he is very useful, but in a vacuum, Mia and also possibly Edward are better.
Every time I use Fir I imagine her doing the Kagurabachi unsheathing pose and it makes me wish I could draw well
Fir gets a lot of hate as "budget Rutger" but if you're a budget version of one of the top 3 units in the game that's not a bad thing.
I haven't watched this yet, but I gotta say I freakin love Lapis' design. It's so pretty and has awesome colors, it's a shame she'll never stay in it
I just hate how lapis got screwed with her deployment. She doesn’t get a chance to shine since they give u kagetsu early on
Looks like there were one or two editing mishaps in this one. Not sure how that snuck through. Pretty minor though, so hope you all still enjoy!
I also think early game myrmidons can make good “jagen”-ish units: they have trouble doing significant damage as the game progress, but can help chip enemies with their avoid and ability to double to set up kills. Their high accuracy and relatively low damage helps in this department. Their high speed also in most cases can help them survive in sword v sword matchups. Long’qu, Lapiz, Yuri, Felix, Hana somewhat fits into this category, and while not even a sword unit, someone like Yunaka, the butler/maids or Kaze in fates can fulfill similar roles in their respective games with access to good 1-2 range. Three houses even gave you an actual “jagen” prepromote swordmaster in the form of Catherine.
I think, a big issue is that myrmidon actually struggle to compete *in comparison*: early game archers typically really has no competition, but myrmidons do: most lords typically use swords, many early cavs have sword access, and mercenaries also exist. Deployment slot becomes an actual resource early game myrmidons have to contest for, and some games also like to throw at you very powerful or outright broken swordmasters in the midgame (looking at you, Ryoma and Kagetsu), so the whole “training” arcs ends up not really worth it: imagine if we just throw a unit with trainee growth and strong bases in the midgame with 0 resource needed, then what is the point of training a trainee? (Which, ok, yeah using trainees tend to lean away from efficiency standpoints most of the time)
I guess my tangent basically summarize to: make early game deployment less competitive and not throwing out powerful swordmasters helps myrmidon, outside of straight buffing their stats. Skills like desperation/alacrity/duelist blow may also help sword units.
It's crazy how good and stylistic their animation are for a class that, in my experience, inferior to almost everyone else's. Still, there is definitely something really satisfying when the right timing, positioning, and rng are on your side, that no other class like Armor Knight and Paladin can compare. Dodge, crits, and double attack just feel really nice~.
Balancing between that "chance-based feel gud" but still moderately viable is certainly not a job I envy.
Haven't played FEs that force cavs to walk in castle, and I can clearly see why that would help Myrmidons, but on the other hand I'm sure some others would get really annoyed and might see it as artificial limitation rather than something that felt natural.
Very fair, the dismount amounts to an effective slight buff for myrmidons by being a heavy nerf for mounted units, and is especially annoying when the final missions in both those games are indoors.
But seriously, few things match the feeling of sending a single myrmidon to mow down an entire squad of pirates, which is why Fir has arguably my favorite starting situation of any myrmidon. You just need to supply her with swords.
the true blade jacket is peak design
Honestly I think, like with Archers, just giving Myrmidons a bit more Strength would make them a lot better. That, or give them some unique Skill to benefit their crits in some way, because even with crits their damage output can often be middling, which is a shame.
A lot of later Myrmidons are proof of this. Ryoma is one of the strongest lords in fates. With Camila arguably being stronger. Felix in three houses wants to go down the sword master tree. He starts with a staggering 10 strength at level 1 with a personal ability that adds more damage. Kagetsu in engage is busted out of the box but even Lapis has reasonably competent strength at join. Just bogged down by competition and funny enough her class.
I want a Myrmidon with cracked defense to be given to us in a game. Many of the oversights with the class would be resolved, and it wouldn't break the power budget of the cast. Blend the narrative of the character with the mechanics of how he's so competent, and you have a new fan favorite.
It already exists - it's called the mercenary class.
I am old enough to Gamble, but instead of doing that, I just choose to have Myrmidons on my team
In most games, Myrms tend to fall into what I call Lyn Syndrome: getting overkill stats in some aspects, at the expense of stats they really want more of. In their case, Strength is the big one; if they must be sword-locked, having a higher strength to offset the lower average Might of swords is what they often lack. Funnily enough, I think a Swordmaster with the stat spread of a Berserker is what I'd actually want; swords are accurate enough as it is and Zerks tend to still be plenty fast. Ofc this isn't always the case, but it's part of the reason I do tend to prefer Mercenaries, who tend to be good in almost every game they're in.
... or it might just be that I'm a weirdo and am one of those people who actually likes Mercs' and Heroes' GBA animations more than Myrms' and Swordmasters'.
Yeah, Mercenaries are generally just better because they sacrifice the overkill to cover their weaknesses. And you're not wrong in mercenaries/heroes just being cool. I'm a sucker for sword & shield aesthetic and in Fire Emblem the Hero is the closest we get to that.
One thing that really helps myrms is the existence of reaver weapons. A Lancereaver isn't quite as much damage as an Armorslayer or Zanbato (most of the time), but in games where most enemies use lances it is a vital defensive option. So removing the reverse triangle after GBA really made a difference for the worse :-(
I actually brought up about Buster weapons in my comment thread, so you can see my general thoughts there. I also did a bit of comparison with them toward their Steel counterparts just now, and note that the Buster weapons have less base Hit but also lower Weight and existing Crit. I understand that the base Hit drawback is really because of the WTA creation, even if it's not a fully visible drawback. Weapons like the Lance Buster are practically tailor-made for the likes of Myrmidons with the stat setup: low Hit gets fixed by the Myrmidon's Skill while the higher Might than Iron stuff fixes their Strength a bit, and the lesser Weight than the Steel stuff is less damaging to their Speed as well.
Beyond slightly improved involvement of that point, it's really the availability of the Buster weapons that needs to be fixed to be treated as mid rank weapons like the weakness weapons and the Kill weapons, rather than borderline rarities. That has kept them from being brought up much.
Swordmasters advantages over the Hero should be quite simple when you think about it.
Higher RES, MAG growths and bases than Hero. They are Swordmasters, thus they can master any sword, even magic ones. And of course keeping the critical rate and avoid bonus.
I'd really prefer crits to be more useful against high defense enemies, like FE4/FE5 crits. Crit animations are satisfying, wasting Killing Edge/Wo Dao uses on an enemy general is not. Myrmidons' high skill really makes them good users of effective weaponry despite often facing WTD. Hammers and halberds are just way too shaky against bosses on thrones, let alone enemies on normal terrain.
General favouritism towards Myrmidons also leads to people min-maxing their supports, stacking tons of avoid and crit like you mentioned. It's more trouble than it's worth to get to that point in most cases imo.
I'm reminded of that all Myrmidons FE hack. It's quite fun playing around with skills like Counter or Shove, as well as all the shiny Prf weapons throughout, but the lack of support from mounted units really shows there. And then everyone gets screwed over by the DSFE avoid formula, taking hits left and right while your few staff users try to keep up. Definitely a unique experience that puts most of myrmidons' shortcomings in the limelight.
Nice song choice, I just got to the inner city not too long ago and heard it for the first time. :)
Get that fire cape yo!
Baha tyty, I did and COMPLETELY forgot it unlocked the area for like months .-.
I had an idea: a playable Myrmidon who, being essentially a bookworm who set out to follow her dreams of being a swordmaster like her favorite heroes, has a statline that looks almost more like it belongs on a mage. Underwhelming Strength, but the expected solid Skill and Speed, as well as notable Magic and Resistance stats.
This would make the myrm a pretty good anti-mage unit, able to dodge Boltings and soak the few that hit, hitting a Mage's weaker defensive stat, and not fearing wind like a Pegasus Knight (at the cost of less opportunities to counter back because no Javelin). And of course, once you find magic swords, she'll be able to really dish out some legendary damage (until they run out).
This is basically Shirou Emiya, except he makes his swords with Magecraft and while he *is* physically very strong, he's also just a human among a cast of demigods, trained assassins, monsters and highly skilled mages.
Myrimdons have had some fantastic battle animations over the years.
Great video bruv, happy new year
Joshua made mw fall in love with them!
Sword boys are usually my favorite type of character (I love Felix, Yuri, Owain, Kagetsu, etc). But, especially in the older games before class changing, I typically just don't love using them. Being foot and sword locked can just be so annoying, especially since the main lord is also typically foot and sword locked as well
I have 2 things to say about myrmidons
1. Guy is the only reason I beat fe7
2. Hana suffers the issue of being in the same game as Ryoma
Love Zihark, Joshua, and Owain for sure. They are a very fun class to use in general, but they do get bogged down in some games quite a bit yeah. One thing I would add is that Myrmidons are often the scariest tier 1 unit type to fight against in the arena, as they can have steel or even silver swords to then double or even crit on even your better units. And the opposite can also be true, they have high dodge and can be very consistent in the arena on your behalf as well.
As someone making a fan game. This is fantastic
I would like to see Shaman/dark mage
Because well dark magic is cool
As a filthy FE casual who like his fancy crits and Generals, I'll stand by my Myrmidons.
Though it doesnt help that every FE game I've played has a Myrm as a standout unit in my army.
I loved this video! New subscriber from this and looking forward to this series. Definitely want to try my hands at making my own GBA hack this year :)
Wish you luck! I mostly cover the main series in Unit 101, but might discuss some of my points in greater detail in separate videos. I hope they prove insightful!
*Myrmidons have generally low strengths * meanwhile Felix, Ryoma and Hana : does not care
This is a class i hope they buff. Swordmasters are usually N/G on higher difficulties because of how much IS hates giving them ANYTHING. Oh cool, armorslayers and Levin, not like a hammer/handaxe could do the same thing but better 😶
Wind edge from radiant dawn makes them a lot better
Axe users need to have something, and being good against armor enemies is giving them a case to work with. Thank you for bringing up about the Thunder Sword, by the way. I actually used Thunder Swords for the Shooters in FE1 Chapter 13 because of their frankly absurd Physical DEF. At that point, we can see how Myrmidons can combat Armor Knights.
@@MasterKnightDH I feel like FE gives axes literally everything, even magic recently. Swords typically have no generic counters against lances but axes can hit sword fliers and sword cavalry for effective damage.
I would almost rather see lances and axes having their 1-2 range options removed or heavily made similarly as hard to use as swords over making swords 1-2 range options just as good
Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on giving Myrmidons 6 move (and swordmasters 7 move by extension)? Does this help make them better since they have an extra point of movement to compensate somewhat for lack of 1-2 range?
The range vs movement conversation is complicated. I think it *could* work, but that also assumes a lot about the movement stratification of the game. In something like Engage or 3 Houses where every point of movement is at a premium it would feel overkill, but in a gba context it would mean they match thieves and, when promoted, match base cavs.
It would definitely not cover in the same way easy 1-2 range access does, as 1-2r is more about versatility than about distance between you and the foe, but it would be a different take that we haven't really seen before. I'll need to think on that.
@@MythrilZenith Yeah probably should have specified that I meant in GBA games when typing that comment, but thanks! Very insightful
@@MythrilZenith"Different take we haven't seen"
Myrmidons(or rather Mercs) in FE1 had an extra point of movement on 1-2 range units like Axe Fighters.
To me, this kind of units tend to be unfavored because they're very luck based (sometimes awesome, some other times just get chopped or skewered by the enemy...) My playstile tends to work better with versatile and more consistent units. then again, The class is still good, though not the best (or maybe I've been very unlucky...)
In the past, I actually made an Attack Speed hack for both FE1 and FE5, where in both hacks, the doubling thresholds were actually +2 on player phase and +10 on enemy phase. The intent is obviously to make both games player-phase friendly. The "Fire Emblem Thracia 776 doubling hack" also doubles Weight influence on Attack Speed but has the Body stat actually provide half influence for tomes instead of none, and a fraction of Strength additionally reduce the Weight influence.
This is something I'm bringing up for Myrmidons, who I suppose indirectly get nerfed by this, but they could do something on enemy phase if extreme Speed differences come up. Probably. (/Gravity Falls) ...right. WTA IS intended to promote player phase combat.
That brings up another thing: FE6's Buster weapons, or Reaver weapons as they're commonly called. Somebody mentioned in comment about disliking how you can break a counter system, even though if the counter system is making gameplay more player phase friendly, it's doing its job anyway, regardless of whether or not I have an old intro where I deliberately have a Social Knight equipped with an Iron Lance KO an Iron Axe equipped Bandit. Ideally, the counter system would still allow for subversion and generally have the countering player recognize HOW they counter their target. At any rate, I recall the Buster weapons have some Mighty Glacier stats, which I can guess would work with the following logic:
-Lance Buster can overpower lances, but are far easier for axes to catch and would not match the Axe Buster's own power
-Axe Buster can have axes' power with higher reach, but end up outmaneuvered by swords and has to worry about the Sword Buster still overpowering it
-Sword Buster would be too powerful for swords to dent at the cost of maneuverability to get through lances' reach or stumping the Lance Buster that would still be poking it well
Myrmidons would have the Lance Buster to work with for combating riders or Soldiers, and any of those who tries to get cheeky with an Axe Buster or a regular axe as a primary equip is looking at being answered by the whole library of swords. I'm pretty sure the Buster weapons don't get talked about much because of how their provision by weapon shops is infrequent at best, but if they had some standardized involvement, weapon type lock wouldn't bite as hard. It might even be possible to involve a discount Armor Killer that would be friendlier to Myrmidons even with Weapon Weight, just because of Rank involvement.
That's another point that can help Myrmidons: Weapon Ranks, which since Shadow Dragon have provided bonuses at higher Ranks, and I note that Fates does use variable Weapon Rank caps between classes. Though honestly, the Weapon Rank benefits for Swords and Axes should be swapped to reduce homogenization that doesn't do Myrmidons any real favor, and perhaps Swords could stand a minor Dodge boost in return for the loss of Attack. We don't want them breaking Armor Knights for free, but we do want them to have an edge over Mercenaries in a key aspect.
So yeah, I'm bringing up the potential of the Buster weapons, as well as the involvement of Weapon Rank.
Really want to make a fan game with 2-range swords, (daggers, knives), to close that weird gap for sword classes. Any recommendations for where to start on making fan games or mods?
Sadly I don't make mods, hacks or the like myself so I can't really point you towards any resources, but I'm sure if you ask around in the community there are people who can help direct you!
They are definitively the best units in Echoes, near garunteed crits with brave sword, high move speed, speed, and resistance.
Great video.
I have always preferred Myr over Mer, it's maybe they are more fun.
They definitely feel more stylish and unique to the series. Using a fairly unique name for the class also helps.
Ready for class!
On-time and you even have your school uniform! Gold star haha
Guy's crit animation is THE reason I fell in love with Fire Emblem. I use Myrmidons in every playthrough regardless of how good they are, easily my favourite class - high crits with cool animations, evasion tanking and their general vibe panders to my inner 13 year old edgelord
The wow factor is an underrated quality, and something I feel like has been lost a lot in the move to 3d. It's just hard to make 3d models' animations look impressive without looking dumb.
Nice video concept, wanna watch the others asap.
Though I would like to say that Myrm / Swordmaster are probably at their peak in FE12 harder modes because the average enemy has crazy speed and I think it's the only class that can reach the 30 speed cap. Reclassing to swordmaster is also a guaranted C Sword rank and funnily enough, some offensive mage are actually better in the endgame in a Swordmaster Levin Sword build than being locked to a Sage and its 25 max Speed. Also it has 8 move (which is not the greatest but it's funny)
Okay but like
Swordmasters *easily* have the best animations across the entire franchise, and tend to have some of the coolest designs
Instant S tier class don't @me
I see someone is a fan of the RuneScape soundtrack
Was waiting for someone to call me out on it. Mor Ul Rek is just a vibe.
Outside of support conversations, does anyone in Path of Radiance react to Mia at all asides from Ike?
Nope. She has some base conversations later in the game but she is absent from all main story conversations in PoR, and has no other on map talk convos beyond her recruitment. Not the only one by a mile, but she IS the first playable character that has no further plot relevance within PoR beyond her joining, and that's kind of a shame, though every other character before her was a greil merc since minute 1 so it kind of makes sense.
Even in RD when she remarks on Soren being lost in his books, he doesn't respond at all. She might just be a part of Ike's imagination.
I didn't know Jugdral (and, I assume, FE1-3, but I played the remakes) had no Mercenaries until Chulainn promoted to a Hero, happily brandishing an axe. There were even girls promoting to Heroes.
Anyway, I've actually had the most fun promoting units in Sacred Stones, as it lets you make some very unintuitive choices. Fighters can become Heroes, Archers can become Warriors, Myrmidons can become Bow Knights and so on and so forth. Awakening was disappointingly safe in its promotions, and while Engage lets you have some fun, you need to learn weapon proficiencies from the Emblems. I wanted to make Etie a Warrior (or at least a Bow Knight), but I had to wait until I got Leif, so she could learn to use axes.
Do a unit design vid for cavs next pls
Cavs are high on the list, not next but soon!
In my experience
Myrmidons are definitely the most awkward base unit. Even archers and armor knights generally function at a base level better.
All the best myrmidons have stats leaning more towards being a mercenary, and making a myrmidon good often revolve around getting them there. Mia is pretty bad, unless she gets lucky Str and Def levels, as my favorite examples.
It's awkward that the units identity is what makes it pretty bad.
It is not the unjt identity per se, it is that Fire Emblem award "good enought" stats over "stat as high as possible"
Give WKs and a paladins a speed cap that is just a little too low to double lategame enemies and you fixed 3/4 of the balance problem in the series.
Another idea i had some time ago for swordmaster speciohically was to make so follow up attacks did half damage, but you keep getting extra attacks foe every X point of speed over the enemies.
@@noukan42 "Give WKs and a paladins a speed cap that is just a little too low to double lategame enemies and you fixed 3/4 of the balance problem in the series." I hear that. Social Knights should have subpar Speed in the first place. Not the horror show that Armor Knights have, but definitely low enough that the Abel Social Knights would stand out for not being hopeless slowpokes.
Or better yet, foot units just need to have more consistently competent stats. Oguma in FE1 has 12 Speed, so he outspeeds base Paladins (11 Speed). That notion should be an indication of the standard for foot units, not be involving higher end unpromoted foot unit speed.
One of my favourite characters in awakening was lonqu, I paired him with vaike often and I found they really evened each other out and I found their relationship built in their supports kinda funny. They were the clown and straight man duo who made up for each other’s shortcomings
Another great video mate :)
My Fe experience is heavily gba skewed, would you agree that fe6 is the best game in the entire series for myrmidons to shine? Their utility for boss killers in fe6 makes them almost a must-have class for that purpose, which I don't feel is the case in any other game?
I think that Fir and Rutger are definitely two of the best Myrmidons in the series, and that the high speed of enemies and notably strong bosses definitely contribute to that. Plus 30% crit as swordmaster doesn't hurt.
@@MythrilZenith all true. I also think there's probably not another game where bosses are as hard to hit. Their dodge rates are so high and myrmidons are the only units that can reliably do big damage to bosses
It honestly depends on whether or not you count the pre-split Swordfighter as a myrm.
If you don't, *FE1, 2 and 3* were easily some of their best showings(swords were just better weapons than most in these games).
In *FE4* they are combat monsters for the most part, but any unit not on a horse struggles to be above mediocre in Giant Maps Emblem.
*FE5:* Shiva is easily among the better myrms too, and most of the Swordmasters in this game are good.
*FE6:* Rutger is good because he provides a vital speedy unit you lack that early. I've played HM Bonus-less FE6 Hard, and he's still exceptional. He needs his promotion early anyway, though.
Fir is entirely reliant on her HM bases and Swordmaster promotion, she'd be bottom 5 in the game if not for those things. (I mostly bring this up because FE6 HM bonuses for player units are purely due to a mistake in programming).
*FE7:* Guy is passable but outclassed, Karel is alright but loses you Harken(an actual top tier) and Karla's a joke.
*FE8:* Joshua is solid enough, though the low enemy quality makes him a good 1-range unit in a sea of good 1-2 units. Marisa is the worst unit in the whole game
*FE9:* Mia is a joke, Zihark is actually good(solid bases and busted support affinity carries him) and Stefan is a powerhouse unit(Though one sadly prone to getting smote by an unlucky crit) if you include Swordmasters in your Myrm discussion.
*FE10:* Actually a really good game for Myrms, one of their best! Keep in mind that with there being three tier units, and most units starting as second tier, the Swordmaster is almost closer to being the real Myrm of FE10, with Edward being sort of like the trainees in FE8 by comparison.
As for the units:
Edward- weak at the start, and there are better units to invest in, but will end up very strong by the end if invested in.
Zihark- Great beginning, and his affinity carries him once more.
Mia- commonly accepted as top 10.
Stefan- strong endgame unit.
Not as well versed on Swordmaster merits past that point(have played thise games but not really focused on the myrms in any sense).
Could also bring up the Emblem-likes Kaga made that I played:
*Tear Ring Saga:* Vega is the single best Myrm ever in an FE-style game. Rutger is a joke next to him. The female myrm you get in this game is also quite excellent. Possibly the single best Myrm outing ever.
*Vestaria Saga:* Haldyn is really your only Myrm in this one, and he's pretty darn good, though absolutely nowhere close to the best in the game.
I like Myrmidons a lot. I have a weird Navarre obsession that I myself dont even really understand past him being cool. Also Kelik is an S tier Fire Emblem lord.
People Like what they like, and there's something about cool mysterious guy with sword that just works.
@@MythrilZenith Yeah I get that part it's just that I literally think about him like all the time whether playing Fire Emblem or not and far more than any other Fe characters, even the ones I prefer. Funny thing is that he's actually my 2nd favorite Shadow Dragon character behind Camus.
The best Myrmidon of the entire series is Corrin
Between crits, dragon fang, and astra, combined with Alpha Yato, vantage, and evade...
One man army
While I agree with most of your points, personally I think swordmasters compare quite favorably to heroes. Hand axes are great, but I find a lot of heroes to struggle with doubling or reliably hitting promoted enemies, and the result is that you have a unit with no hard weaknesses but relatively low potential for one-rounding, and they struggle to find a niche for themselves compared to say, a paladin. Swordmasters meanwhile tend to get really good in the first levels after promoting since they'll quickly get high skill and speed, doubling basically everything until endgame, being nigh unkillable dodge tanks on forests or forts, and being among the best boss killers. In comparison I find a lot of heroes tend to end up as filler or dropped because they don't do anything well enough that someone else can't do.
Of course this is also down to the fact mercenaries are balanced units, which means their level ups are paradoxically more unpredictable. A number of good ones can make for a unit that is just good at everything, while getting a couple of bad lvl ups or not getting one specific stat means you have a mediocre unit or one that has a very specific downside like low hitrate or low speed. Most myrmidons have such skewed growths that you're close to guaranteed to get about the same unit down the road.
It depends on the game and the unit of course, but a swordmaster is very reliably going to be able to do swordmaster things, and that's not something you can say for most other classes, combat wise at least.
What games does that happen in? I suppose FE6 has this, as you only get 3 Mercenaries/Heroes, one has low growths, one has low bases, and one is a prepromote with severely lacking bulk, while Rutger is one of your most reliable answers to many tough earlygame bosses, but in FE8, Gerik with literally no level ups and only a promotion to Hero can double the final boss with the S rank axe and generally, along with Seth and Duessel, stays good at combat throughout the game. I don't think he's vulnerable to being stat screwed because of this.
@@lucasgreer1736 Well, I am specifically playing through FE6 with Dieck failing to keep up atm, that might color my perception at least a little. But as far as FE8 goes, basically every unit you train will do well in combat. I don't think Gerik should be able to double the demon king without training though right? He's got 13, 15 from promotion, 20 with garm. Demon King has 18/19 speed apparently so that shouldn't double right?
Not that it's a big deal regardless, fomortiis is such a pushover that being able to easily kill him isn't really a good point for any character.
But my point wasn't just about comparing with mercs. The Tellius series, which don't have mercs, still work the same for myrmidons. While several of them (Fe9 mia, fe10 edward) kind of suck at the onset, they become very reliable units upon promotion because of the way that basically every myrmidon works. Their stat growths guaranteeing high hitrate and dodge make them a safe investment even if they're not initally that good. And the ones that start off decent are even better as a result. There's much less risk than most other classes as far as bad growths go.
I can't think of a single myrmidon in the games i've played that isn't at least a passable swordmaster if you train them. And I can't say that of any other class really.
@@Win32error854 I misremembered, 0% runs give gerik a speedwing, but he still has good enough stats to do well even if he got the most screwed possible. The issue with myrms is that they're usually good at doing their job as a fast dodgetank, but often the games either prioritize killing as many enemies as possible on enemy phase, which myrms struggle with due to a lack of 1-2 range, or disincentivize dodgetanking. Radiant Dawn myrmidons are probably the best in the series, as they finally have good 1-2 range and have high enough caps for good lategame performance. However, in, say, FE11 on higher difficulties, none of the myrms can really do their job, as almost all enemies have lances past the earlygame and enemy hit rates are very high, and they start with almost no rank in other weapons, which limits their value in reclassing. Meanwhile, mercenaries are quite good due to their high speed and axe access. It's telling that the only swordmasters I've seen people use in FE11 are either mages or reclassed to mage for a while, as they can use the Levin Sword to effectively act as a mage without a poor speed cap.
"Swordmasters compare favorably to heroes"
In FE4 and FE6 yes, because in the former, Swordmasters are just Heroes with better stats and an extra Skill. In the latter, because hit in FE6 makes Hand Axes fairly underwhelming while +30 crit is huge.
But beyond that?
FE7's two possible Heroes are the single best non-mounted units available while not a single Swordmaster is even in the top half of the cast. Hand Axe Raven is quite often beating the same enemies as Guy at 1-range more reliably.
FE8 Gerik IS the best non-mounted combat unit available, while Joshua is only alright and Marisa is the worst unit in the entire game.
"Heroes struggle to double"
Only ever a thing in FE6. Not one Hero in any pre-FE6 ever struggled with this, and FE7 Raven doubles basically everything from the point he joins until the end, as does Harken. FE8 Gerik also never ever has doubling issues.
Hana for me filled the niche as a mage killer due to her high resistance. By endgame she had more res than Ryoma! (And I was playing on hard mode too!)
Don't myrmidons also have better evasion?
Evasion comes from speed, outside of certain skills in Fates, 3H or Engage.
Just put a Rutger in every game. With Hard Mode stats.
it's honestly more about the environment of the game that can make them good or bad, for example Joshua has only slightly worse stats than Rutger but because fe8 doesn't really make his focused stats of much importance he's a lot worse
Doesn't Myrmidons tend to have slightly higher resistance than mercenaries?
Maybe? Honestly the difference was so minor it wasn't worth mentioning
Where did the name come from anyway? In one sense I know, but it's a most unlikely word to have been trawled up from the depths of an English dictionary by an American, for example, and an even more unlikely one, surely, to have been chosen in Japan. What is the class called in the Japanese originals?
I don't know if the Japanese name is different. It's possible they just took it directly, as FE1 was emulating other Greek aesthetics and names, and Myrmidon was a name given to certain Greek footsoldiers (according to the Iliad this was a name given to the soldiers who followed Achilles, for instance), so maybe they just picked that name and kept it.
I would say Radiant dawn sword units are leagues better than heroes, mostly because of mia's existence as she has solid 1-2 range and high crit rate
One good swordie in a game with 3 other bad to mid ones is a tough argument but RD Mia does have a lot going for her that the others don't. Might be fun to dive deeper on in the future.
@@MythrilZenith its more like 2 of 4 are good, zihark is genuinely a good unit, high crit rate and 1-2 range is good even though wind edges have low hit rate his skill makes up for it. Lucia would be good if she had availability and eddie lives or dies by his growths
Not gonna lie but i always train Mia lol, somehow i always liked to have weak units becoming monsters, same for Ilyana in the same games
Heroes are different from Swordmasters in Thracia 776
in that game hero's are just worse because Swordmasters get an extra point of move which is more useful than an e rank in axe, but it's honestly not that big a deal considering how easy it is to be good at fighting things in that game
Nice balancing, it would be a shame if Dread Fighter or Raijinto
I am very fond of Mia in Path of Radiance. Yes, she absolutely gets walled for a while when you unlock her in Ch. 6(?) with all the Daein Soldiers in the following couple of chapters, but if you stick with her, she's an absolute monster in the later chapters with a Killing Edge or especially Laguz Slayer. Laguz do fall outside the weapon triangle, so that probably has something to do with it, but doubling Cats and Crows is a lifesaver in the tougher Laguz-focused lategame Chapters.
Aren’t Stefan and Zihark still better tho?
@shanemiller1182 It's just my opinion, but I think, especially in the Laguz fights, Vantage is much better skill than Adept. Growths tend to favor Zihark, but only 5% differences across all stats except Magic, which Mia ia +15%, and Defense, which Zihark is +10%. Mia has the better Res and Luck growth too.
Not to mention the Sword Band pushes her Lck growth to 50%, which can get pretty strong at later levels.
Slap a Wrath on that puppy, and she'll knock down anybody that tries to attack her below 50%. Unless they have bows. Or lances.
Man this video reminds me of how bad the class is man I wish myrmidons were a more meta class in modern FE they were only really good in one game and just suck in every other.
FE6 is myrmidon Emblem for sure. But yeah, mobility and versatility beat out overkill speed almost every time.
> high avoid and speed to have better matchup against axe unit while gaining the ability to double
> make enemy axe units high defense, have skills like hit+20 and certain blow, flying mounts to gain the advantage for first moves, and also make them have just enough speed to avoid double for good measure, looking at you wyvern riders
Seriously, I kinda hate it when fire emblem creates a “counter” system, then proceeds to completely negate it with things like immune to effective damages, ignore breaks in engage, or reverse weapon triangle effect skills like sword killer axe unit in fates.
For good measure: give cavalry units sword access
About the Break immunity thing, I can at least tell that the game didn't want Armor Knights and such to go down without a fight. And the Break mechanic is new in Engage anyway, so it basically just nerfs Armor Knights' competition in general.
Addendum to this ridiculously quick comment: as I mentioned in my own comment thread, if the counter system accomplishes its mission regardless, as would be the case with WTA making the game more player-phase friendly, then its purpose doesn't get broken apart so easily. Just have the tools for the player to not want to think in absolutes, to be able to work with subversion of the system through crafty play, as I implied with the Buster weapons. I will say that a passive skill of +50 Hit and Evade against the advantaged weapon type for free IS absolutely excessive, though, since there's no tactics with it at that point. We want interesting gameplay, not the "lolisummonaninfinityplusonemonster" idiocy you may remember from the Yu-Gi-Oh anime.
I trust that you understand what I'm getting at.
@@MasterKnightDH Oh I definitely agree the break immune thing make armor knight actually a competitive class in engage, and that makes engage armor knight probably one of the stronger iteration in the series. I just think it may have been better if it’s a class skill you unlock down the line similar to wary fighter in fates, so in the early game armor doesn’t break the rules for weapon triangle.
Otherwise, I think 3h does it very well with the breaker skills, in that enemies will always still follow the triangles (except brawl breaker because that skill is unused in the game), and you HAVE to equip the triangle weapon. I think it absolutely was a step in the right direction.
@@klodpraisorI disagree with the dual weapons. They're situational and since they double the effects, they can be very useful or detrimental to your units. They're one of the few Fates weapons that do drawbacks right, because their main function can be helpful or harmful.
@@AkameGaKillfan777 I don't believe I mentioned dual weapons once in my original post, since I do think they actually reinforce the rules by breaking them (paradoxically), but I would like to mention that some levels are designed in fates specifically for dual weapons (revelation early game = Corrin with dual katana solo half the map and maybe switch to Yato when convenient, Camilla with dual club+swordbreaker from wyvern trivialize endgame enemy sword units, calamity gates is great for mages to stay relevant in ninja-heavy maps, etc).
In terms of the weapons having detriment though, I actually heavily disagree, despite it being a somewhat irrelevant point to my original rant. I mostly play conquest and some revelations so I'm not super familiar with dual weapons in BR, but I would say as long as players have even a semblance of knowing what they are doing dual weapons are strictly a plus in CQ and Rev, the detriment is extremely easy to bypass by weapon trading, which fates incentivize players to do with pair-ups and tag teams anyways. Fates' weapon disadvantage either falls into the category of "barely matters" (effective weapons) or "it's so nerfed it becomes a buff" (nosferatu, javelins, etc), and while I agree that dual weapons are some of the few better-designed drawbacks weapons, but its downside is still too easy to navigate through.
Regardless, the original post was mostly ranting about enemy design rather than player tools, so there's that.
In Fates, Myrmidon (called Samurai in the game) and Swordmaster aren't even particularly skillful compared to Mercenary and Hero. Samurai and Swordmaster are now only just average in terms of Skl compared to other classes while Mercenary and Hero are some of the most skillful classes in the game, with Mercenary only being behind Ninja in Skl for unpromoted classes, and Hero being top 1 in Skl tied with Master Ninja and Sniper for promoted classes. So now Mercenary is stronger, more accurate, and more bulky than Myrmidon at the cost of being not as fast, which is a ridiculously unbalanced tradeoff lol.
Fates' attempts at class balance while also trying to establish the Nohr/Hoshido split AND trying to make a counterpart class for each side was just way too much, which is why they tried to lean on class skills to incentivize leveling in some classes. Certain Blow (I think) and Vantage are pretty good skills but yeah Samurai isn't a great class outside of that. The limitations on reclassing also help encourage using units in worse classes. But Fates as a whole is such a complex mess it probably deserves its own video, if not several, on its class design philosophy alone.
Samurai are one thing, but Swordmasters are absolutely NOT worse than Heroes. They have a +10 crit and avoid boost that can be stacked with other skills like Lucky 7 and Speedtaker, along with weapons like the Practice and Sunrise Katanas. They may not hit hard like Berserkers or Generals, but they'll do considerably more damage than any Shuriken/Dagger wielding class.
@@AkameGaKillfan777 In practical terms for Conquest (and Birthright by extension), with dodgetanking being niche and crits being outright bad, Hero is absolutely 100% better than Swordmaster. Atk and Hit are always the most relevant stats to boost, and Swordmaster's innate bonuses don't give any of that.
@@VeXJL Crits being outright bad? Hell no, I don't believe that for a second
@@AkameGaKillfan777 Sure it is, as counterintuitive as it sounds. In a game where one-rounding enemies is easy, crits don't offer anything of value. Why gamble for a crit with a Killer Axe to kill? There should be much better options at your disposal. At its best, it's never ideal to use. And at its worst, crits can be even straight up detrimental by robbing you of dual guard gauge when in guard stance, or robbing dual strikers of exp and wexp when in attack stance. Bronze/Brass weapons and Throwing weapons are some of the best weapons in the game in no small part due to the consistency that comes from disabling any and all crits from the user.
Fire Emblem need to stop rewarding "good enought" stats. Specialist classes with never work when generalist classes do the same thing and more.
Something as simple as giving WKs and Paladin bad caps so people cannot brute force them into "good enought in every stat" territory would probably balance the classes on it's own.
Dragon Knights shouldn't even have good Speed in the first place without standing out. And foot units just plain need to play to their own strengths better. Though a mechanic that uniquely benefits non-riders, I would say passively buffing adjacent allies by 12.5% of the provider's own combat stats by default, could allow for encouraging positioning not reliant on mobility and avoiding any need of stat inflation. I would even say a 25% boost instead for the following stats from the following classes:
-Strength - Fighter and Armor Knight
-Magic Power - Mage
-Skill - Mercenary and Archer
-Speed - Myrmidon
-Physical DEF - Soldier and Armor Knight
-Magic DEF - Cleric
How would that sound?
I do what you said about caps actually holds true to a certain extent in fe12 but only really only lunatic
Rutger and Fir are the quintessential Myrmidons if you're ironmanning. Rutger has the lethality to be powerful, but JUST too little Luck and Avoid to avoid dying if you lean on him too much; he dies by the same kind of sword he lives by, so to speak. Fir has the Luck and Avoid, but JUST too little power to reliably wipe foes out, and stands the risk of dying to bad positioning or overconfident gambles due to her lower Defense. If Rutger dies, it's because the RNG blessed the foe. If Fir dies, it's because the RNG screwed Fir (or because you were an idiot and went against something with elevated Hit).
I once sent Fir at a Mamkute with a Wyrmslayer. She missed a 97, and was instakilled in the counterattack. I was using Fir because Rutger had gotten killed by the Killing Edge Hero in Chapter 14.
In both cases, True Hit really helps the swordsfolk out. The "true" first Myrmidons, Ayra and Shannan, are heavily disadvantaged by 1RN, to the point where Chapter 7 is defined by hoping Shannan dodges 30 spells with a one-in-six chance of hitting.
Yeah there's a reason I never trust Shannan enough to send him face first against the Yied mages and instead just try to pick off a few while retreating towards Seliph.
Edward Actually has enough spd to double and can take 3 hits in 1-p, which is important because he's the only good fighter there and can easily pick up xp, and his spd/growth are great, it's also extremely easy for him to reach doubling benchmarks because his base spd is great, you showed 1-1 which by that point he would already gained str/spd
" Lack of weapons triangle hurts him " it also helps him because he doesn't face any WTD lol
I'm surprised you mentioned guy and Joshua as not being " bad " despite them having bad str, sword locked and no 1-2 range and not having any niche, unlike Edward who actually has good str, 1-2 range, good class in a game where caps matter, also is essential in his game
Eh Hana is pretty good in BR, only thing she lacks is bulk which can be easily patched, espacially with MOA promotion
1-2 range is the most overrated thing in all of Fire Emblem. You don't need to be able to hit from afar with ALL of your units.