Ninja Kiwi for some reason has a very difficult time understanding that losing thousands to get hundreds is not a good deal. Honestly I really do not understand what in the world is happening with Sub Paragon, the entire community is telling them that this tower doesn't work on a conceptual level - and someone up there just plugs theirs ears and goes "la la la I can't hear you, this is my design idea and I will die on this hill defending it" - in pretty much every other case they've been great at listening to player feedback but this? Last update didn't have ANY changes to Sub Paragon, this one has a buff that only ever matters for "max buff tower" challenges Like seriously - the Sub Paragon, in this very test did 330,000 extra damage by not being submerged, but you do have "an option" to submerge it, lose 330,000 damage and gain 3000 damage. The ball of light thing is cool yes - this is how submerging the sub SHOULD actually work - for ALL heroes
It seems like the submerged state's best use is for a degree 1 NSC to buff a sub army to accrue pops for a stronger NSC, or perhaps in co-op to bring multiple heroes to lvl 20 and maybe increase their dmg if they're Adora. I like the improvement to the hero buff but NK ought to make submerging have less of an opportunity cost... maybe start with having it reduce the sub's own Final Strike cooldown?
Well sure in this test adora does just 3k more. as she is the only unit on the field this is nothing. Now add a sub army and some other nearby towers to be buffed and it's a great support paragon.
Ok but aside from the ball of light, the damage you trade from being submerged vs not far outweighs the DPS buffs of submerged paragon. This also doubly goes for the ability, it doesn’t do nearly enough, even to bosses which paragons do the most damage too, to justify 15 seconds of downtime. Opportunity cost is just the common problem with the sub paragon, none of the buttons result in more overall damage
yeah but now the argument for submerging just got a lot weaker. Everyone's going from "the DPS buffs aren't worth it." to "the DPS buffs aren't worth it* * *" * except with adora * and any other heroes we might not have found * and stacking towers next to it to buff might make it worth it just a bunch of asterisks everywhere mucking up your point.
@@aguyontheinternet8436 not really, it’s pretty much ball of light and that’s it. Quincy level 10 is too poor of uptime, is RNG based, and his regular DPS isn’t that great anyways, we see in this video that Churchill doesn’t get that massive of a DPS improvement (certainly not enough to put dps the paragon unsubmerged), and no other hero has any sort of high tick rate attack that could capitalize on the buff like ball of light, so other testing isn’t even necessary It’s literally just ball of light’s uptime where you’d want to submerge, it’s still not worth when not using ball of light, and it becomes still an even worse deal when you’re stacking debuffs. Sure, I’ll admit the one (technically two if you want to drop a 60K mega mine on a boss, but it’s lack of layer piercing makes it overkill even for late game BADs otherwise) asterisk on ball of light’s uptime, but every other situation you should have the paragon unsubbed
If there is another hero who makes a combo and that is the famous Geraldo Use the Paragon with x4x subs around This way you get 6*10000*(number of potions)*(number of subs) And this is not counting the 50% skill reduction of the sub Also, this way you can take advantage of it both submerged and unsubmerged since you only submerge it when using the skills
I just don't understand the purpose, really. When is the buff from the Sub Paragon ever big enough to be worth sacrificing the paragon's damage output?
Your sub paragon should already be submerged in freeplay due to the faster navarch hook ins. With this being said this buff is nice for extra damage I guess but yeah, not gonna change the game or anything
I think the main issue is that **zero** damage stat modifiers in this game stack multiplicatively. Sub Paragon only multiplies the **base damage** stats of heroes, not the total damage dealt per hit.
@@saxassoon propably too much, but yeah at the point you can afford a expensive ass paragon to buff a simple hero, it really needs to be a gigaboost to make it worth it so the paragon loses its attack.
the only thing they have to do to make submerging the sub viable is to make the buff a global effect. having the paragon ability cooldown reduction only inside its range makes it way too restrictive.
the big question is how it is damage wise as degree 91 sub(or max degree you can get on logs without geraldo) unsubmarged + adora vs submarged sub paragon +adora
@@Courraff that Im aware, the question is, will the unsubmarged degree 91 (orwhatever is max in logs) with adora (minus the sub buff) outdps or not the adora with the sub para buff (like sub para+adora pops vs adora with sub bufff)
@@forevermasteri4330 honestly I feel like that's such a ridiculous reason for a gameplay mechanic, especially when there's a free way to get rid of a ton of lag (accessibility to 0% projectiles)
2:53 that reaction made me laugh so hard, and so happy. 🤣 also it's crazy that there was still ANOTHER opportunity for you to use the ability again b4 the final uturn circle of the map! Plus the sacrificing abilities, you can see how powerful Adora can really be. I wonder how Venge Adora's damage would be.
The issue with the buff is that it is a base damage buff and an attack speed nerf. Overall damage buffs are almost exclusively additive on top of base damage so the sub buff doesn’t affect them at all and they are generally large enough to match or even overshadow the 5x base damage. The attack speed is multiplicative so it affects all damage including base damage and all buffs meaning the effective 23% attack speed nerf largely negates most of the benefit of the buff anyway especially when you consider the fact that it makes the sub not attack.
They really should just make it a final damage multiplier instead of a base dmg buff. It can probably also help remove discrepancies such as the stupid Ball of Light DPS compared to her base attacks being barely changed.
the ability and submerge need a complete overhaul, 15 seconds downtime for pretty normal damage is not worth it and no matter how much they'll buff and nerve the submerge buffs, it will always result in a "this or that" situation where the player will only choose the better option for the tower
I did test this myself before the update, using well timed abilities and comparing them to TSG Adora with and without NSC on a normal test bloon, I even added ultraboost and the DPS is a massive buff despite the attack speed decrease and when god boosted, and her DPS is almost 1 mil without debuffs Jesus christ OWO Probably a lot more now that it has been buffed
You should not have said that now ninja kiwi is on their way to kill this tower’s buffing capabilities instead of *ACTUALLY FIXING* THE GODDAMN PARAGON
Maybe what they could do is to turn the submerge into an ability(instead of the final strike which is honestly a straight downgrade to ace paragon) and have the ability decrease the sub paragon’s attack speed by say 25% while buffing every tower nearby for 5x base damage.
If they made it so the sub hyper buffs abilities you would have a reason to submerge and unsubmerge it. Keep it unsubmerged while your abilities are on cooldown, and submerge it when your abilities are off cooldown to do MASSIVE DAMAGE!!
Can you do a video on how powerful level 20 Moab hex is I just want to sandbox without the sub paragon down with a max level Ezeli put the round up to 810 which is my max used her hex on a fortified bad and she popped it
literally i was miles ahead of yall... mybad. I dont think I rattled anyone's cage about how to maximally utilize the sub-buff 😅 but fr, BoL was the first thing my mind went to when I read the paragon release! not even joking.
ok, but is there a single actual use case for this? when will you ever _actually_ need the extra damage for your hero when you're using paragons? Paragons already deal enough damage to make your hero's damage inconsequential, they'd need MUCH bigger buffs to be worthwhile. ESPECIALLY considering that the sub specifically has to lose effectively ALL it's popping power to do this inconsequential buff.
I feel like you're too quick to discount Brickell. Buffing Brickell is supplemental to using it with sub-spam. So basically, making Brickell on her own into an ok source of damage in addition to her buffs making subs actually better than just leaving the paragon unsubmerged. I haven't crunched any numbers yet though.
Still would not say it is worth it. The sub by itself already deals way more damage than any hero buffs, Only way it could possible be worth it is if it was increased to 10x and even then I doubt it.
He gaslit NK XD we should probably test every hero just to be sure it doesn't nerf any of them Edit: finished tests results are Nerfs Ezili buffs everyone else
I also would like to see the Quincy. I know its not gonna be as strong as the Adora but he has attack speed, an ability that buffs attack speed and multiple projectiles which suprised a ot of people when its god buffed
Quincy has the very small issue of having 1 base dmg on every single upgrade. Yes quincy never gets base dmg upgrades, only moab dmg upgrades which The paragon cant buff, so the paragon buff will nerf god boosted quincy
NK thinks btd6 is a competitive game like League of Legends where the balancing is what keeps the game active. Pretty cool and all but who gives a shit to BTD6 competitive? Really, the game does not have an Elo system or whatever that justifies it. It's pretty much a single player game jeez, they're just making the gameplay more strict for no absolute reason.
2:48 Sorry to say this but this is kinda why I don't really like your content anymore Exaggeration like that make me feel like I'm watching some brainrot kid content
Still not enough. The opportunity cost of the buff is just too high
Yes thank you.
The paragon itself does a lot of damage. That you get 1 hero from 35k to 42k damage is not worth when the paragon does 50k itself.
Doesn't matter in free play
@@EdonSerifi doesnt it buff other towers and paragons tho?
@@3days_left only subs, not even the boat. It only buffs cooldowns of paragons
NK sometimes is on drugs when buffing towers
also in nerfing stuff
Wdym that they're sometimes on drugs?
They are always on drugs.
@@janpolansky9668 some buffs are actually good, sometimes there on more drugs
@@josh-gu6ziyou can come up with good ideas on drugs though.
They are on those fermented bananas again
Ninja Kiwi for some reason has a very difficult time understanding that losing thousands to get hundreds is not a good deal. Honestly I really do not understand what in the world is happening with Sub Paragon, the entire community is telling them that this tower doesn't work on a conceptual level - and someone up there just plugs theirs ears and goes "la la la I can't hear you, this is my design idea and I will die on this hill defending it" - in pretty much every other case they've been great at listening to player feedback but this? Last update didn't have ANY changes to Sub Paragon, this one has a buff that only ever matters for "max buff tower" challenges
Like seriously - the Sub Paragon, in this very test did 330,000 extra damage by not being submerged, but you do have "an option" to submerge it, lose 330,000 damage and gain 3000 damage.
The ball of light thing is cool yes - this is how submerging the sub SHOULD actually work - for ALL heroes
You so fucking right bro
Maybe they should let the sub still attack, but with some alternate weapon
or maybe give a global buff to some or all towers?
yeah and maybe it should buff the actual damage. Not the damage without buffs
It seems like the submerged state's best use is for a degree 1 NSC to buff a sub army to accrue pops for a stronger NSC, or perhaps in co-op to bring multiple heroes to lvl 20 and maybe increase their dmg if they're Adora. I like the improvement to the hero buff but NK ought to make submerging have less of an opportunity cost... maybe start with having it reduce the sub's own Final Strike cooldown?
Well sure in this test adora does just 3k more. as she is the only unit on the field this is nothing. Now add a sub army and some other nearby towers to be buffed and it's a great support paragon.
Ezili and Quincy still get nerfed by this with every other buff - Ezili loses 18.5% DPS, and Quincy loses 8.4%. It's insane.
5:35 Mackan turning into SJB for a second there 🤨
Lmao fr fr
“aDoRa’S hOt BrO”
@@BloonHero666ain’t wrong
Ok but aside from the ball of light, the damage you trade from being submerged vs not far outweighs the DPS buffs of submerged paragon.
This also doubly goes for the ability, it doesn’t do nearly enough, even to bosses which paragons do the most damage too, to justify 15 seconds of downtime.
Opportunity cost is just the common problem with the sub paragon, none of the buttons result in more overall damage
yeah but now the argument for submerging just got a lot weaker.
Everyone's going from "the DPS buffs aren't worth it." to "the DPS buffs aren't worth it* * *"
* except with adora
* and any other heroes we might not have found
* and stacking towers next to it to buff might make it worth it
just a bunch of asterisks everywhere mucking up your point.
@@aguyontheinternet8436 not really, it’s pretty much ball of light and that’s it. Quincy level 10 is too poor of uptime, is RNG based, and his regular DPS isn’t that great anyways, we see in this video that Churchill doesn’t get that massive of a DPS improvement (certainly not enough to put dps the paragon unsubmerged), and no other hero has any sort of high tick rate attack that could capitalize on the buff like ball of light, so other testing isn’t even necessary
It’s literally just ball of light’s uptime where you’d want to submerge, it’s still not worth when not using ball of light, and it becomes still an even worse deal when you’re stacking debuffs.
Sure, I’ll admit the one (technically two if you want to drop a 60K mega mine on a boss, but it’s lack of layer piercing makes it overkill even for late game BADs otherwise) asterisk on ball of light’s uptime, but every other situation you should have the paragon unsubbed
If there is another hero who makes a combo and that is the famous Geraldo
Use the Paragon with x4x subs around
This way you get 6*10000*(number of potions)*(number of subs)
And this is not counting the 50% skill reduction of the sub
Also, this way you can take advantage of it both submerged and unsubmerged since you only submerge it when using the skills
I just don't understand the purpose, really. When is the buff from the Sub Paragon ever big enough to be worth sacrificing the paragon's damage output?
If you want to do god boosting then submerging the sub is an extra buff you can add I guess
It's mostly to get extra pops for higher degree sub paragon
For heroes? Idk
Your sub paragon should already be submerged in freeplay due to the faster navarch hook ins. With this being said this buff is nice for extra damage I guess but yeah, not gonna change the game or anything
It does make Brickell more relevant, and she's useful for buffing sub-spam, which gets even more buffs from the submerged paragon than heroes.
I think the main issue is that **zero** damage stat modifiers in this game stack multiplicatively.
Sub Paragon only multiplies the **base damage** stats of heroes, not the total damage dealt per hit.
Does the siege core apply its multiplicative buff before other buffs or after other buffs?
**Before** all other damage modifiers, both additive and subtractive.
2:50 when you accidentally gag on your toothbrush
really need to make it more significant.
×20 damage and x4 speed
@@saxassoon propably too much, but yeah at the point you can afford a expensive ass paragon to buff a simple hero, it really needs to be a gigaboost to make it worth it so the paragon loses its attack.
@snowdrop9810 I was mostly trolling, but yea it should honestly bridge the gap between those OP insta pop mods and god boosting towers
@@snowdrop9810 I mean it does a lot more than buff a hero but
the only thing they have to do to make submerging the sub viable is to make the buff a global effect. having the paragon ability cooldown reduction only inside its range makes it way too restrictive.
Me spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to buff the hero mainly used to buff my VSTG
the big question is how it is damage wise as degree 91 sub(or max degree you can get on logs without geraldo) unsubmarged + adora vs submarged sub paragon +adora
damage multiplier from sub buff doesn't get affected from the paragon degree, it'll still be the same no matter what
@@Courraff that Im aware, the question is, will the unsubmarged degree 91 (orwhatever is max in logs) with adora (minus the sub buff) outdps or not the adora with the sub para buff (like sub para+adora pops vs adora with sub bufff)
I was a bit frustrated that people didn't seem to get the point of the buff at all for a while, but happy to see this video now I guess 😅
It's still worse than just the damage of the sub.
Why is the attack speed debuff even there on such a crazy expensive tower???
To reduce lag?
The idea is to reduce lag by reducing projectile count and compensating it by multiplying damage.
@@forevermasteri4330 honestly I feel like that's such a ridiculous reason for a gameplay mechanic, especially when there's a free way to get rid of a ton of lag (accessibility to 0% projectiles)
Your reaction at 2:44 really make me laugh thanks Mackan !
2:53 that reaction made me laugh so hard, and so happy. 🤣 also it's crazy that there was still ANOTHER opportunity for you to use the ability again b4 the final uturn circle of the map! Plus the sacrificing abilities, you can see how powerful Adora can really be.
I wonder how Venge Adora's damage would be.
The issue with the buff is that it is a base damage buff and an attack speed nerf. Overall damage buffs are almost exclusively additive on top of base damage so the sub buff doesn’t affect them at all and they are generally large enough to match or even overshadow the 5x base damage. The attack speed is multiplicative so it affects all damage including base damage and all buffs meaning the effective 23% attack speed nerf largely negates most of the benefit of the buff anyway especially when you consider the fact that it makes the sub not attack.
U tricked NK lol
this also does wonders with corvus' abilities, mainly ancestral might and overload
They really should just make it a final damage multiplier instead of a base dmg buff. It can probably also help remove discrepancies such as the stupid Ball of Light DPS compared to her base attacks being barely changed.
and maybe make it 2x cause 5x total damage s already crazy and 6x is even crazier heck even 3x and -33% attack speed
If the monkeys the Sub Paragon buffs while submerged isn’t almost as powerful as a Paragon each, then submerged Paragon isn’t worth it.
My suggestion is try with Brickell and sub spam.
the ability and submerge need a complete overhaul, 15 seconds downtime for pretty normal damage is not worth it and no matter how much they'll buff and nerve the submerge buffs, it will always result in a "this or that" situation where the player will only choose the better option for the tower
I did test this myself before the update, using well timed abilities and comparing them to TSG Adora with and without NSC on a normal test bloon, I even added ultraboost and the DPS is a massive buff despite the attack speed decrease and when god boosted, and her DPS is almost 1 mil without debuffs
Jesus christ OWO
Probably a lot more now that it has been buffed
2:46 WOW wok pue okay dude dude I... how did I not test this last time?
it multiplies the Ezili base damage of Hex, as it does 5% + 1 damage per tick; so with the submerge on its 5% + 5 damage per tick.... i.e. worthless.
You should not have said that now ninja kiwi is on their way to kill this tower’s buffing capabilities instead of *ACTUALLY FIXING* THE GODDAMN PARAGON
for a 6% increase; at least for the main attack, this feels quite underwhelming
We tricking NK with this one boys 🔥🔥🔥
I wonder how strong it could be with both a hero and normal sub spam with a bunch of buffs
Maybe what they could do is to turn the submerge into an ability(instead of the final strike which is honestly a straight downgrade to ace paragon) and have the ability decrease the sub paragon’s attack speed by say 25% while buffing every tower nearby for 5x base damage.
If they made it so the sub hyper buffs abilities you would have a reason to submerge and unsubmerge it. Keep it unsubmerged while your abilities are on cooldown, and submerge it when your abilities are off cooldown to do MASSIVE DAMAGE!!
On its own. Casually has a true sun god beaming it
Out of context moment🤨 5:06. 5:35
nobody tell NK, keep it a secret!!
Well all damage based abilitys shoud be buffed and maybe things like jerryfire from geraldo works as well
You should do a boss run with this setup for Adora. Would be interesting and I'd like to see it :]
Can you do a video on how powerful level 20 Moab hex is I just want to sandbox without the sub paragon down with a max level Ezeli put the round up to 810 which is my max used her hex on a fortified bad and she popped it
I wanna see how far all heroes can go with this buff but idk what the best map would be for each hero.
Local man discovers heroes have abilities
Nice
you have to subtract the damage the paragon would have done if it were unsubmerged
Balls
Is there a chance that Rosalia is a special kind of sub-tower, so she didn't get nerfed by the attack speed?
no she just deals a lot of base damage
Sub is still the worst paragon the ability is useless and very bad
and how does it work on ezili?
when she have damage based on %
Sub paragon is so tall anyway, it should be submerged and unsubmerged at the same time. Problem solved
High dmg hero benefits most
one Moab on round 81 has 204 HP
literally i was miles ahead of yall... mybad. I dont think I rattled anyone's cage about how to maximally utilize the sub-buff 😅
but fr, BoL was the first thing my mind went to when I read the paragon release! not even joking.
You forgot the adrenalin rush on rosalia
Edit if i spell her name wrong sorry😢
ok, but is there a single actual use case for this? when will you ever _actually_ need the extra damage for your hero when you're using paragons? Paragons already deal enough damage to make your hero's damage inconsequential, they'd need MUCH bigger buffs to be worthwhile. ESPECIALLY considering that the sub specifically has to lose effectively ALL it's popping power to do this inconsequential buff.
Should have tried Vengeful Adora too
Vengeful adora has the same stats
But cooler (i guess)@@doveofdestiny
@@doveofdestiny same stats as true son god adora indeed
I feel like you're too quick to discount Brickell. Buffing Brickell is supplemental to using it with sub-spam. So basically, making Brickell on her own into an ok source of damage in addition to her buffs making subs actually better than just leaving the paragon unsubmerged. I haven't crunched any numbers yet though.
Still would not say it is worth it. The sub by itself already deals way more damage than any hero buffs, Only way it could possible be worth it is if it was increased to 10x and even then I doubt it.
Try this buff on a boss challenge
I have the PC version and I have the Xbox version and the Xbox version still need a update
He gaslit NK XD we should probably test every hero just to be sure it doesn't nerf any of them
Edit: finished tests results are Nerfs Ezili buffs everyone else
1--->6 damage
5% unchanged
No wonder shes still nerfed
They need to let you creators test new things before they get implemented and allow for your guys criticisms on them.
his reaction to adorable using the ball of light was hilarious
43 min ago update 43
Sorry to burst your buddle but as long as it has a attack speed nerf its not worth it
I also would like to see the Quincy. I know its not gonna be as strong as the Adora but he has attack speed, an ability that buffs attack speed and multiple projectiles which suprised a ot of people when its god buffed
Quincy has the very small issue of having 1 base dmg on every single upgrade.
Yes quincy never gets base dmg upgrades, only moab dmg upgrades which The paragon cant buff, so the paragon buff will nerf god boosted quincy
Yo
I pressed translate to English and it said “they” wtf
i love clickbait thumbnails
Technically the second image is possible if you Ball of Light then reset cooldown. Rinse and repeat 5 more times. Only possible on Sandbox mode.
tbf it is essentially 6 since it does 6x he damage.
Also mackan rules loves click bait
Can you really blame TH-camrs when clickbait thumbnails are scientifically proven to get you more views? You guys would do it as well
@@mort996as a content creator myself, yeah to some degree yeah
That isn’t really clickbait. It’s a sub paragon, Adora, and her ball of light. There’s six of them to signify six times damage.
3:00 is crazy
too little too late
NK thinks btd6 is a competitive game like League of Legends where the balancing is what keeps the game active. Pretty cool and all but who gives a shit to BTD6 competitive? Really, the game does not have an Elo system or whatever that justifies it. It's pretty much a single player game jeez, they're just making the gameplay more strict for no absolute reason.
second I think
Nobody cares
@@Bentheman24 oh good to know that Nobody cares…
@@majorleaguegamingpack828 yeah so delete ur original comment 🤦♂️
@@Bentheman24 no.
If Nobody cares then I know someone cares
I care 🗿
2:48 Sorry to say this but this is kinda why I don't really like your content anymore
Exaggeration like that make me feel like I'm watching some brainrot kid content
uwu
First
Nobody cares
@@Bentheman24 oh cool!
@@majorleaguegamingpack828 but then nobody would make these types of comments if they truly knew that
@@majorleaguegamingpack828
They have videos on their channel, comment nobody cares and dislike it. If you hate them enough
Sorry @@josh-gu6zi but I would like to politely decline your offer
Last
Nobody cares
@@Bentheman24 Nobody is such a caring person…
@@Bentheman24(it's a joke)
Hey that's not how this works... aren't you supposed to be last to be last?
@@Bupboy real