Should You Learn Ladder Logic? ABSOLUTELY NOT! PLCs are Obsolete
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2024
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The "which language is best" debate has been raging for years and will continue to do so for many more to come. My take on this is simple. Use the right tool for the right job. Use Ladder when it suits. Use Structured Text when it suits. Use FBD when it suits. Sometimes you'll have a project using only one language, other times it'll use several. My advice; keep an open mind to other methods and possibilities. Don't restrict yourself, learn and grow as a person, a technician, an engineer.
I agree and it isn't uncommon for me to mix Ladder, Function Block, and Structured Text in the same program. My main gripe is people telling up and comers that they don't need to learn ladder logic because it is old. Being old should not be a deciding factor in whether it should be learned.
As automation gets to more non conventional industries even common plc and hmi language are short. So yes keep your options even learn C ,C# and other languages.
@@WilmerAriza I agree.
I think that ladder logic is essential for troubleshooting. It is like a schematic showing you where the I/O are activated or deactivated, where is a timer or counter counting up or down without control and you can force or toggle bits for test and you can watch what is going on live. However, there should be a similar way to troubleshoot with other languages like function blocks, structure text or any other.
Mainly, it is in most machines so telling newcomers that they don't need to learn it because it is old will spell disaster for them.
99 of a machines life that has a PLC is the tech troubleshooting..... so it's better to be written in a form easier to troubleshoot
Every facility and automated system I've seen in my short nine years, incorporates ladder logic as part, if not all, of their program. Keep doing what you're doing Tim! It is valuable and appreciated. 👊😎
Will do!
I’m currently in tech school and we’re currently covering ladder logic and motor controls. This is so refreshing to here because this is exactly where my interest lies.
That is great to hear Anthony. Keep practicing!
For maintenance, ladder is the best to work with. For fault finding if regular message and indication does not point to correct fault in the system, just go online with ladder and check which rung has the output issue, then go back along the rung check for NO/NC of the inputs or bits or function block. Then somewhere you see the hidden bit interlocking the start operation.
I believe the clients should which logic they want their system to be built on and our company always had LD as preferred.
Good points
Ladder logic is the building block for PLC programming. However, we do build function blocks for most repeatable tasks that can be used for multiple projects saving tons of time. TIA Portal lends itself to this very well.
Ladder logic is here to stay. Other languages are fine but the foundation programming language will always be ladder.
I agree...at least given the graphical interfaces available today
Yeah. I work with compressor plant automation and only at the anti-surge system the controller is programmed in C. This is due to the need of a quick action when this event happens.
I have a standing challenge out there...Bring your best anti ladder logic programmer and a nominal manufacturing process to me and if I cannot complete and commission the ladder logic program in less than one third of the time, I will treat that whole group to a steak dinner at any restaurant of their choice. I will even give them a head start. Further, once we both have our programs commissioned, let an unbiased entity introduce a typical failure into the system and if I cannot troubleshoot and restore operation in less than one tenth the time that it takes them, I will eat my hat.
100% agree...I'm sure you've had your share of anti-ladder logic commenters over the years. Hopefully we'll meet and I'll buy you a steak dinner some day.
This cracks me up. I was doing node red years ago when my buddy got me a job at an OEM and I was introduced to ladder logic. I bitched about it for the first few years but now I find it fun and sometimes surprisingly challenging. Tim is absolutely right that you NEED to be competent in Ladder Logic to be competitive in the controls world. My brother does Python data crap and he can accomplish the same task in one line that I'm doing in MANY. Its just the nature of the beast. If you don't like being in the weeds at a low level, you will hate this. That being said, any of the young comp sci background controls guys - there is opportunity here. Learn ladder, get a job and help the industry evolve! Thanks for the vids Tim!
I like the word evolve! That is how we will get the better languages into the machines.
But your ladder will not blue screen the machine like bad python code.
@@pieisawesome65 If its code, it can crash. Even ladder. At least in python you don't have to explicitly data type everything and constantly convert to do basic math.
I actually use Python sometimes too. For instance, I needed to make a change to a bunch of Ignition tags yesterday, so I copied them as JSON text and pasted them directly into VS Code, wrote a 1 line for loop and had it print the result to the console. I copied that result from the console and pasted it directly back into Ignition, and all my tags were updated. I don't think it took more than 3 minutes!
@@TrevorMorrisSound Dynamically typed isn't always better, though it certainly works well in Python. Have you ever seen the absolutely incomprehensible stuff you can make with JavaScript though? Also, almost all but the cheapest or oldest PLCs will implicitly convert data types for math, so in large part that's also not a valid argument.
I wish I could like this video more than once. Hit the nail on the head with this one Tim 👍🏻
Thanks Shawn!
Hurrah for Tim, finally I found someone who is putting in a very intelligent and articulate form something I had a feel for in the last twenty years (at least). My upper management is constantly reminding me that "Ladder Logic" appeared first in the 1970s and therefore is necessarily on its way out, it is just a matter of a short time. However, I continue to see it, work with it, replace my ladder logic equipment with more recent and up to date ladder logic equipment. It just doesn't look like ladder logic is on its way out.
Thank you for pleading our cause so well and so loudly. Also, the title "Should You Learn Ladder Logic? ABSOLUTELY NOT! PLCs are Obsolete" is very catching and a good choice to entice reader to further look into the matter.
Kudos to Tim Wilborne.
You are welcome! I'm glad you see our side 😁
Ladder logic is a language everyone from electrician/tech to software engineer can learn and master for simple to complex tasks. It was developed to mimic Amercian style ladder drawings (vs European rail drawings). As Tim points out, all these other code languages are what is being taught, which baffles us (Tim & me both) because again as Tim points out, when someone goes to a machine or process, there's a 90% change you're going to see ladder logic in there. Hardware reliability is the big reason with no argument why you can't kill PLCs, and reliable software programming and maintenance is why ladder logic will continue to prevail. For those who disagree remember that most modern PLCs allow function block and structured text programing as well but for sequencing, and rule based logic there simply is no better choice than ladder logic. If you really want to get into the code and syntax, then learn to code the object code directly behind the visual ladder logic or write a conversion program to convert from your preferred language to PLC object code.
Great points!
Ladder is very good for Automation Engineers coming from Electrician backgrounds. It looks like a Schematic rotated -90degrees ;) (meant panel drawing)
You were right the first time, schematic. ;)
Love the video, Tim, Im a control Panel builder and I wire many PLCs, VDFs, soft starters, and even panels with nothing but relays so for those that think that PLCs are going away any time soon good luck. Im also in a college program called Advance Manufacturing Engineering Technology there is a whole semester on PLC's ladder logic training and programming.
That's great to hear, keep practicing!
Yeah that ish aint goin anywhere FOR A LONG WHILE. Thanks Tim for what u do. Awesome watching ur channel and business grow. 👏👏👏👏👏
Thanks 😊
Hi Tim. An excellent video as always! In my personal opinion, I think a powerful solution to this ladder logic obsolescence is the following: There has to be an integration and nexus of all IEC 61131-3 languages in an automation system program, each one with its own special function and relationship with the others. By this, I'm trying to say that for example, Structured Text Should be like a primary deep layer in the whole logic program, BFD should be the secondary layer to make partial or global decisions, and ladder logic should be in a third layer to make more emphasis on alarm, interlocks and other sort of security elements both inputs and outputs. And finally in a fourth layer I think C++, python or other programming language could play an important role on monitoring, requesting all kinds of data and making patches not only in the previous 3 layers, but also on a program tool or even a plugin.
I agree with you that should be the best way to proceed but there a point to be made for me .
This is a complex solution most of the time what the costumer ask to me is high compatibility between one system and another , there’s machine with a life expectancy of about 20/30 years each and I think the main reason the ladder is still heavily used nowadays is to maintain compability over best performance at the end the limit is the mechanic parts and not the program once is working they don’t want you to touch it anymore 😅
I’m doing my training also for the Java part for the OEE data collectors and I find that the two way of programming should and must stay like they are pc program and plc you can’t be really good at Both ..
They all have their place.
@@dywirnach783 Totally agree with you. Thanks!
I agree, well said Tim
If there would be anyone I would colab with it would be you. we seem to think very similar
Yes we do Shane :)
I’m both a Field Service Engineer and Junior Automations System Control Engineer for my company. I call myself Junior in Automations as it’s my secondary job role when I’m not doing field stuff. But my company is an OEM to the Power and Oil & Gas Industry in the design build equipment system we supplies. At this point some of our customers are now 40 years old and the logic in their system is ladder Logic. That isn’t going away and when those older plants upgrade their systems as do some what do they get, ladder logic. At least that is what I see from our customers. At best we may have Function Block in the logic along with ladder logic but it’s for the most part mostly Ladder Logic. Even assuming we stopped doing Ladder Logic, we still have to support over 2000+ customers from over 40 years of design build system customers who all have ladder Logic systems in place and need services from time to time as well called to do system upgrade.
I agree and that's what I'm trying to get across with this video. Is ladder logic the best way to write a program? It doesn't really matter. It's what newcomers are going to run into when they go out into the field.
@@TimWilborne I don’t think it’s exactly which is best, it’s more which one people knows and to be more specific which one the people that works for your company knows. I once asked my Senoir Automations Engineer programmer why we don’t use more AOI’s as I see them in TH-cam vids I watch etc. Now my Senoir Automations Engineer uses AOI’s, Function Blocks all the time in “his” programming that he does in upgrade projects for current customers as we as in our company group mostly service existing customers on upgrades. But for the Main side company who only does new projects, greenfield projects, they don’t add AOI’s to any logic 🤔. His point is that for the new engineers who has to go out to do the equipment commissioning, they don’t know or understand AOI programming instructions. They understand the Ladder Logic, but are confused by the AOI’s. Now given that understanding, my company aren’t gonna change anything anytime soon about changing how they write Logic Instructions from Ladder Logic. Now unless their is some huge fundamental change as to why they can’t use Ladder Logic and has to use something else. Here is a case of it’s not what is the best perhaps, but what they know, what their engineers know and what new people they hire may or may not know. But one guy at our company who has 30 years of writing PLC Logic writes all the logic for main company new projects and he is well versed in Ladder Logic and that is what it all will be. The logic is well written usually. He barely ever use Function Blocks keeping it old school. But that is how it is. Now my Senoir Automations Engineer he has no issue with using Ladder Logic, Function Blocks, AOI’s etc in writing applications on our side of company, as if something isn’t working or needs changing, he is the one that fly’s out to customer to fix the logic issue or does it online if he can. So there is more at play in context as to which PLC logic structure is best, best to use and why. To me, it will be different to each particular company for various reasons.
@@ardentdfender4116 Very good points.
What is the best training to get hired? Do I go to a college and get an associate or do I go online and pay for a course and get certified. What is the best online program? I wish I could get hired and trained on the job but that's hard to find.
Start by figuring out if you really want to gain this skill before you invest any money. Sign up for this course, you can get through the counter lesson with the free software and simulator, then reach out and we can talk about options.
courses.twcontrols.com/courses/allen-bradley-micro800-plc-training
Great Words of Wisdom. The interesting thing ladder logic was built off of relay logic schematics. Throw a set of old relay logic schematics at the young kids and see if they can figure that out!! The thing that most theae young guys don't understand that the industry still has older machines that are all based with plc's that support ladder logic. Sure, structured text and function block programming is used and has been used, but ladder logic is the most common program source. Structured text was used basically in the MSDos world and migrated to machinery, along with c++ program which also came from the pre- windows world, but Tim is right, get the basics of ladder programming down, get a job, and then work on the other languages. You will be better off. Way to go, Tim!!
Thanks Bruce!
Ladder logic will never disappear; I'm a maintenance tech our place has old PLC-5 controllers running ladder, its getting upgraded over the next 2 years or so and a lot of it will still be ladder.
For people like me who have to go and figure out a possibly unfamiliar plant, ladder is easy to follow at 2am when you're trying to diagnose a problem (assuming it's been programmed properly to begin with and not descended into spaghetti program).
I know a few machine builders that like to "lock in" customers by trying to put their own programming niche styles; equally, there's plenty of big clients who won't sign a plant off *without* having the PLC program.
IIRC, the Omron Zen smart relays will actually convert ladder into a circuit diagram to make it easier to understand.
Troubleshooting an OEM machine when they don't provide the documented program is something I should do a video on 😡
Ladder logic was great for washing machines before they got smart features, or other boolean driven situations. It also works very well controlling elevators. I work in a facility financed to 9 digits and our Rockwell PLC environment has been slow, bloated, buggy (with Rockwell involved in trying to identify a couple product bugs), expensive, and it's failing to do the job a decent 1980s home computer with appropriate I/O could achieve with C. The project is months behind schedule and the PLC has needed multiple CPU and memory upgrades along the way. As somebody who's been commercially programming for 40 years now in a few dozen different environments (including C, C++, and assembly on a couple dozen different chips) and been commercially designing PLC hardware since the mid 1990s with multiple Fortune 50 clients, all I can do is roll my eyes at the ladder logic world as I watch projects limp or fail and get converted to more capable environments. Legacy for the sake of obscurity is all I see, but the conversion market is at least profitable.
Still, as long as it exists in plants then students need to learn ladder logic to be prepared.
I am just curious if Europe or Asia use ladder logic for their programming.
Not as much but the same as there are pockets in the United States that use function block or structure text, there are pockets in Europe that use ladder logic
Sounds like either your just not a good programmer or you have terrible project managers!!!! I been controls engineer for many years in huge food manufacturing and I've never had a project not exceed expectations!!!!
Currently in controls school, you scared me there for a second hahaha. Great video thank you.
Haha. Don't close yourself off to any of the languages, you'll run into all of them 😁
Agree... been in the business for over 20 years. The ole ladder logic just keeps on ticking like a Timex Watch! Plus for some logic requirements is the best for getting what you want. Enjoy your work!
Thanks Jeff!
I love ladder logic but I would like to get better at structured text. Which leads me to my question... With Allen Bradley is there a way to convert a ladder logic program to a structured text program in any of the AB software's (RSlogix or connected components) That way someone new could compare the two programs. I have both program pdf's for RSlogic and connected components that give examples of each instruction but I would like to have a full program for comparison. Tim do you know if this is possible?
No, I wish there were but one thing I have been working on is taking my existing exercises and learning to do them in Structured Text. It has been a great learning experience.
Machines break. Ladder easier for maintenance to troubleshoot and less destructive than a big hammer.
You have a point 😂
Buzzed Tim Wilborne rants are what the people want. Keep up the good work sir.
Thanks Jake :)
I used all the most common programming platform and languages (Siemens , Omron Allen Bradley/Rockwell , schneider electric Keb beckhoff and other home made or subproduct )
Here’s my opinion
1 adapt yourself to the platform each have his own pros and cos
2 make your own flow diagram and adapted to the language
3
Ladder for easy diagnostic
Function block for compact lines of codes that have to recalled a lot
structured text for math,data recording and other more complex functions ( structure combined with arrays ect )
My final advise is stay simple , don’t make your own function probably (9 out of 10) there already done , what gives the difference with the experienced programmer an a noob is how much easier can somebody else diagnostic and read the program
P.S. ( Never use the coding of the electrical diagrams like the symbols/variable name of your program you will forget what they means after a few years and nobody will be able to easily read the program write it in the comment line )
Very good tips!
In general, ladder logic is a tool which is great for certain situations, but not for others. However, I do somewhat understand some of the gripes against it. My first 4 years were doing motion control where PC interfaces and integration was key, so I learned text based languages well before I learned ladder. I think ladder shines best with boolean logic. However, anything related to time or mathematics and ladder is not self-intuitive. You get used to it the more you use ladder, but it still doesn't make it any less clunky.
For example, write a program that flashes a light with an Arduino and then write the same code in ladder. Then try to explain them to a high school student. The average person will have a much easier time following the C code in the Arduino than ladder.
I agree there is a line that ladder gets too complicated but even there it's very gray. Math is definitely difficult in ladder but honestly I'd say a flasher is easier in ladder.
I only use ladder logic when it is the only function available as with Rockwell. Schneider has all functions in all the IEC languages.
I use function block diagram and Sequential Function block and have used these almost exclusively for the last 25 years.
I can see more logic with function block on the screen at on time
Rockwell had those languages also, but the point is that it isn't a reason to tell students not to learn ladder logic
@@TimWilborne True Rockwell has the languages but they are not complete! You can not do some things with function block and must use ladder.
If you know logic function block is the same as ladder. With Schneider you can get much more function block logic on the screen than with Rockwell. Much faster too. I figure about 80% faster.
@@gordycummings It doesn't matter if it's a thousand times faster. They still have to understand ladder logic if they're going to get a job.
As someone who’s been out of college doing controls for a couple years now, in school I learnee FBD and structured text alongside ladder logic…have yet to do anything but ladder logic for plcs lol
😁
Thank you Tim! I love your videos. I have learned so much from watching your channel. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Thomas!
I just finished a project that required over 30 sensors and six cabinets at 6 different locations( 100 ft apart) We used ethernet cable to connect all cabinets or Ill be there a year running cables. All worked like a charm.
That's great to hear!
Let's be honest, everybody loves to design integrate and commission automated production lines. But IMHO, roughly 70% of the time is more about troubleshooting a failure. Then you will thank those clunky timers, comparison and clunk routines. I believe a CS programmer would be sup-par in the automation industry, it demands a very hostile type of pressure. As a personal experience, I had to solve a bug(from another engineer), next to a 20-ton plastic injection machine with unnerving noise, while everyone in the production line is behind your back questioning your skills as you fix it, with no safe space for latte relaxation, as every minute of production lost comes with a penalization pricetag. THEN YOU THANK LADDER DIAGRAMS.
👍
Probably one of the greatest features of ladder logic is the ease of debug, because you can see exactly what is happening/going to happen. If you are controlling a 10-tons worth of machinery, or can waste $10k of product with one wrong move, you darn well better know exactly what your logic is going to do in what EXACT sequence. With 10-ton machinery over your head, do you know exactly what sequence node-red is going to execute in?
👍
Ladder logic is the basis of PLC programming no matter what manufacturer your into. 10 years ago when I attended siemens programming course they say few years from now ladeer will be obsolete but until to date it is still present in automation system.
Yes I've heard that for years also.
Tim,
Spot on! I also agree 💯 percent with this post. I have students that often come from background's where they were taught C++ or structured text only. Then they find out that ST is just a tool that completes our toolbox and it makes sense for certain things.
Ladder in it's simplicity is transferable across brands! Not true with complex and textual language.
Agree, it needs to be learned by students in addition to the upcoming languages.
@@TimWilborne
Tim,
I suspect that many of the University professors are of the educational only background and not had any practical applications in the real world of manufacturing, so they focus on textual language and simulation software that play well together.
I'm just a crusty old technician also, and most of my real learning came from the trenches in industrial and production applications
It is something we need to help professors with. We can't expect them to know everything, we need to work on bridging manufacturing and education.
@@TimWilborne
Tim, I was just speaking from what I have experienced, I definitely don't expect them to know everything.
I learn new things weekly!
I think it's the education field in general puts more emphasis on education level than actual experience. The industry and manufacturing side typically look for experience as a key hiring o factor. I know we all have to work on real equipment to get real world experience. The experience back ground that seems to be missing is apparent in some instances.
A mix of ladder and grafcet is my jam. Function blocs are pretty neat to. I can't stand structured text programming😅
Funnily enough. Even my instructor at Siemens Academy said ladder was a dying language we probably hardly would ever use. It's everywhere. It won't go. It just works.
Yep 😊
The upcoming release of IEC-61131-3 removes IL/STL. LD will stay, and PLCs will last even longer. However, common reasons given in favor of LD are numb; the idea that we need to use LD because it makes troubleshooting possible, exposes the limits of ladder logic; HMI should be giving enough hints to troubleshoot the problem. Connecting a laptop to a machine and crawling through the program to find a faulty sensor is ludicrous. The problem is that the semantics of LD is bound to electrical schematics, which limits the extensibility of expressions, so the alarms for troubleshooting must be hardcoded and manually labouriously crafted, which makes them hard to enforce and unreliable. There are outstanding approaches for ST + OOP that can automate alarm generation (you won't forget to add an alarm because it will do it for you). Besides that, it provides highly readable/manageable/scalable programs in a declarative-like syntax that reads like a story. The problem is that all these discussions around PLC languages are dogmatic quasi-religious battles where the arguments are based on personal preferences and beliefs rather than facts.
I agree, it is a complex discussion. In a perfect world, a technician should not have to connect to the PLC to discover the problem. It is a major focus of our 2nd class. But for now it isn't a perfect world and students need to be familiar with the bulk of what will be thrown at them.
Great comment. Totally agree with you. The people that bash ladder logic probably cannot troubleshoot & repair and actual piece of equipment to determine if the fault is a mechanical or an electrical control/power problem. Just my opinion.
It is true for many.
Every controls technician should learn all five languages of IEC 61131-3. That's it, just five. End of. No ifs, not buts.
Well said !! I highly doubt that ladder logic will go away completely, if anything, it will look very different than the xic/xio contacts, scl functions and so on, but it will still be the same under the hood. Visually different.
Thanks!
I believe that ladder logic will always have a place, but newer languages are useful too. They are all tools to be used to complete a job. When function block was all the rage, I learned it. When structured text was the hot skill I began to learn it. The real point is learn as many skills as you can, no matter what you think of them. I’m over 60 and I can program rings around the young kids, when the project calls for having to talk to something that still uses and ancient RS 485 communication, or god forgive if it 232 over serial.
I agree. There are new languages that can run circles around ladder and they should be learned also. It's just when we decide that one language doesn't need to be taught because another one is better that we do an injustice to the students.
Or like me having to go back to rslogix 500 and panelbuilder because the used machines we purchased, built in 2002, are all running slc 5/04 and 5/05s
It can be really hard to justify upgrading the controls on a perfectly running machine. Especially if it is a secondary machine or you have plenty of parts on the shelf.
@@TimWilborne Old control systems are a fact of life, I help maintain PLC as old as Modicon 984 written with Proworks NXT, up to Allen Bradley L84, using Studio 5000. You should see the looks on the new kid’s face when he finds out the system he is writing code for is a year older than he is!
Or when you have to break out the old programming inferface suitcase 😂
The fact that something is old is not proof that it's obsolete! I think it's the other way around! The fact that it has been around for so long proves that it's useful!
I agree!
With Studio 5000 you actually have to pay extra to use anything besides ladder logic. Yeah, Rockwell's licensing is attrocious.
Anyways, ladder has its place, as does any other language available to us. It makes most tasks at least somewhat robust and readable, which generally are the 2 most important aspect of a PLC program, so it's my go to if the other options don't stand out as ideal for whatever I'm trying to do. That's just for Rockwell though, I would use structured text a lot on pretty much anything else since their ladder diagrams are generally terrible by comparison while structured text is implemented much better.
Ladder is somewhere around 80-90% of what I code and 10-20% is in ST or FB depending on what I'm working on.
Yes, and as long as it is out there, we need to keep teaching it to newcomers.
@@TimWilborne right , imo coding plc is not about what language is the best , it's about visually laying out logical component in order for the process to be easily readable for the end user (most likely an electrician) .. so pick the IEC language that make the section of the process your working on more easily readable
As much as I personally DESPISE ladder logic I have to agree with you (and Ive been doing this 20+ years). If a tech wants to learn another language, make it Structured Text. I am seeing a lot of demand for it. It is also faster, neater and more compact than any other language. Keep in mind though that your customers will still demand ladder as the main outward facing language. Keep ST for library functions and add-ins but tie them together with ladder.
Great points.
Perfectly said Tim.
Thank you!
I have begun school for plc tech/ control engineer. I have alot of experience working in manufacturing/ electronics/ troubleshooting and figured an education would be good at this point.
I honestly think ladder logic is comprehensive. The other softwares to me don't translate as well.
Ladder logic can be difficult of course but I'm surprised how fast I understood the concepts, cuz it's logical lol.
You'll run into all three major languages and several others so try to get some exposure to each one.
Preach on Brother!!!!!
😁
Ladder logic obviously is more for the technician than it is for the programmer. That makes it super valuable, bc 9 times out of 10 the programmer is long gone and unavailable when the technician is staring at the program trying to troubleshoot a machine. Been a gripe of mine forever that companies contract out programmers and either A) Dont demand that the programmer simplify to meet the skill level of the techs or B) Dont invest in the training of techs to understand more complex programming. But the idea that Ladder logic is outdated obviously comes from ppl with little or no real world industry experience
Great points.
I've have found over my 26 years in my factory is " programmer" tend to like to use what languages they are most comfortable in. However the real task is Troubleshooting and from my experiences Ladder Logic is better when troubleshooting. (at-least for me. I've even insisted vendors needed to use ladder logic opposed to other languages)
Good to know, thanks for sharing.
In certain situations ladder logic is the best option. Easy to fault find also in certain scenarios. I wouldn't stop using it.
Yes, it will be important to know for the foreseeable future.
I’ve seen new languages used decades ago by vendors making their products nearly impossible to troubleshoot by in-house electricians at on the floor. I’ve worked at a lot of industrial manufacturing facilities and am amazed by how many plants don’t let their front line troubleshooters access plc’s. And it’s mainly because they cannot hire qualified electrical techs!
It does make it tougher on technicians when troubleshooting machines when they can't access the PLC. I've thought about adding exercises to my class where the technician can't use the programming software to start with so they can see how far off of the solution they end up being without the code as a tool.
@@TimWilborne I/O prints, Tim! I worked at a plant as maintenance manager and try to give the mechanics basic plc training including where and how to use I/O prints. Show them the various racks and plc cards. Show them the lights on the cards including the input and output numbers and how they relate to the I/O prints and hardware. At least it’s a start when you can’t access a laptop.
@@jackpast On Wednesday of our class, they have to troubleshoot without I/O prints :)
@@TimWilborne would love to see how they do that!
@@jackpast I can't give away all of my secrets!
Some integrators are using ST language for the functions that ladder logic can do. The only reason for this is that the integrators would get a service call to make money. They even forgot what they had been doing only six months ago.
Yes, documentation is important, especially in ST where tag comments are not easily viewable.
Almost every CNC machine I’ve ever worked on uses ladder for machine operation (background). Between that and all the other industrial automation, the young guys (myself included) need to become fluent in ladder.
I don't work with CNCs much anymore but it was interesting peeking inside one of them one day. All the auxiliaries such as tool break sensors and bar feeder logic was in ladder logic. The first CNC I worked on was a 1982 Union Carbide burning table, it had a single line display and could be a nightmare if you had to find a typo on a big program :)
You 100% need to learn ladder logic to be solid tech in controls. Learning other languages is fine but ladder logic is still heavily in use today.
I agree
Ladder logic has its ups and downs. Ive personally have seen cases where it was certainly not the best solution and should have been written in ST to make it short and simple to follow. Allen bradley themselves has a document that says what language they recommend based on what you plan on doing. Its the same reason programmers learn multiple languages because some are more appropriate for the task at hand.
Ladder is obsolete, not the PLC as industrial device. I prefer FBD for PLC programing
I left the industry for a standard software job, tripled my income, and I still miss automation.
Someone told me once that there is something about seeing a machine start to operate compared to making an app to replace an app that already does what we need.
I personally don't care much for the graphical format of Ladder Logic, bit I was taught C to program microcontrollers so using a text based approach is more natural to me. However, I do understand why Ladder Logic is so popular and will remain popular. The format mimics an eletrical circuit schematic, and that is far more intuitive to someone in the field who doesn't have my programming experience than a text based approach. Until that is addressed, Ladder Logic will never go away. Telling students to ignore that is tying a noose around their necks.
I agree, the same as diehard ladder logic fans need to learn text languages. You have to be ready for what ever you run into.
you're Awesome 💯 teacher.
Thank you 😊
Yeah...Tell the Engineers @ Krones that!
Well said
Thank you James
Plants are upgrading their equipment less and less so ladder logic will be here for a long, long time. The person that can go in to an older plant and get their equipment running for them will have a job for as long as he wants to work.
I agree :)
Cyber security agrees with you 😂
Anyone telling students they don’t need to learn ladder logic is doing a disservice to everyone. Those systems exist and students will have to work on them once they’re in the field.
I work for an OEM and they’ve had the habit of switching PLCs every few years. Our techs have to work on all of it. It’s not amusing when they’re struggling in front of a customer who’s losing tens of thousands of dollars per hour while the unit is down
I agree but it is happening more and more.
Besides , c++ does in no way relate to relay logic . And duh , relay logic will not die
Ladder logic is great as a backbone because the electricians and technicians will be familiar with its likeness to actual circuitery! Every minute the guy is scratching his head at your oh so ellegant solution, the line isn't running. Write stuff the maintenance staff can read. Add your fancy stuff as function blocks and describe what they do in the comments. My take on it anyway!
Edited because I write like crap!
100% agree!
Ladder logic is not easy to troubleshoot and read. I preferred structure text. Easier to understand since the words are self explanatory.
You may be right but still the student coming out of school has to know ladder logic to get a job. This isn't about preference.
@@TimWilborne You are right. It is a must to understand ladder logic. There are still a lot of people using ladder logic.
What about codesys?
What about it?
@@TimWilborne What is the future of such metalanguages? They use Ladder too. What is your opinion?
Ladder is ladder, it will still be around
Pretty soon...it will be Raspberry Pie
😂
neccessary evil I suppose.. LD is useful in certain places but I think people who are planning on getting into the automation industry should learn how to program in C based language and understand the fundamentals of how computer works and think hard about how to write a good program that is not just functional that gets the job done for now but a code that is maintainable and scalable in the future.
The industry is putting more and more emphasis on software and people need to keep up with what's happening outside the boundaries of the factory automation and try to learn and incorporate the new ideas and best practices of the modern software engineering.
I think complimentary would be a better word. If you call it a necessary evil, student will presume it is unnecessary...then I get that phone call from them a few years after they graduate because no factory will take them seriously.
@@TimWilborne true that haha, yeah I suppose all of them are just tools to get the job done but students should be at least given an equal amount of exposure to both LD and ST, like you said they complement each other.
Yes. I don't know if you saw the last live stream where we were determined the length of a string but I was surprised to find out later logic was the cleanest way to do it. Chances are if it was a real program, I still would have done it in structured text because of other data manipulation that would have gone along with it but it was a good exercise.
I guess I’m old. I still build 95% of my programs in ladder
And maybe a little wise 😉
Yup and 232 and 485 aren't used either.
Oh boy, I'm having flashbacks to the grief I got for my Modbus RTU video a few months ago 😂
@@TimWilborne crap the brand new ultra sonic meters we are installing this year are using 485. But it's obsolete.
You would be surprised at the number of DH485 networks that are hidden behind Ethernet adapters.
I love you Ladder
😁
Ladder logic is simple for factory
👍
If its not broke dont fix it
😁
So what? Are they banning it for real?
no
Not a chance though several latest and greatest software companies told me it should be 😂
that was classic click bait
Hopefully a few people get a message in it
@@kinikinrd thanks for clarification
Fully endorse your views. It will be plain stupid & dangerous to program common moving machinery in anything else. Nothing is as easy to visualize like Ladder.
IMHO, for trying out to replace a single rung with as little as 20 discrete signals in Structured Text or C can be a challenge. Even God will find it difficult to visualize text-based code on-line.
Above all, learning to program in Ladder is the most easy & naturally intuitive among all other options.
Absolutely...if you cant stand RLL , you got no business in this industry
These days you need to know a lot of languages, including RLL.
Can we not be so click-baity?
Can we stop telling students they don't need to learn ladder logic?
Knot
🥲You're mean.
Sorry but ladder still needs to be learned.
If Rockwell would disappear, life would be so much easier and cheaper. Over priced, over complicated, over controlling.
Until it does, students still need to learn ladder logic
TH-cam needs a laugh react button. 😂 🤡
Thats' a joke of course
Got it 😁
There is no ban for LD mate... no such thing... I'd wish there was though.
Until there is, students still need to learn ladder logic
😅😅😅
Well put!
Thanks!