The Northern Line is already the Southernmost tube line. Extending it further South would make the name even sillier. They really ought to do just that.
Rather than extending the Northern Line south East, they should go further South with it - all the way to Sutton. The Bakerkoo Line could (and should) be extended south east all the way to Bromley South station via either Peckham or Lewisham. I really do think Bromley needs to be connected to the Underground network as it's a sizable place. The Bakerkoo extension could think link up Bromley North with Bromley South for the first time ever. Meaning no more buses to get from Bromley N to Bromley S, as you could just stay on the Tube. While the Victoria Line should also extend due South (from Brixton) to Croydon. Or more specifically East Croydon station - to take pressure and congestion off Southern services. Of course in an ideal world, all three projects would be completed by 2040. But seeing as it's not, my guess is that only two of these three projects will ever see the light of day. Which one will get the boot is anyone's guess; but even if two are completed, don't expect this to be done by 2040. More like 2050, at the rate big transport infrastructure projects go, in the UK. If we were China - all three would be completed, and operating by 2030!
I’m not sure extending the Victoria Line to East Croydon would make sense. What intermediate stops would it have between Croydon and Brixton? Could it compete with the journey time of remaining on a London-bound train to Victoria and changing there? I doubt it.
@SimonForrester I don't know. Maybe it would follow Brixton Hill, and have a Brixton Hill tube station at the top of it ....then go via Streatham (Streatham Hill station?), then on to Norbury....then one or two more stops before ending up at E Croydon. So three or four stops between Brixton and E Croydon. I think that would definitely be quicker than Southern rail services. Especially as it would be more frequent. Every 2-3 mins Vs every 15-20 mins. So I'd say it would definitely be worth it. The least viable project of the three would imo be the Northern Line extension from Morden to Sutton.
Your videos really scratch this random itch I have in my brain that for some reason makes me want to consume information about London and its transportation at a rapid rate. Please keep up the great work.
Jay Foreman's Unfinished London series is great! I also like Joolz Guides - he talks about different areas of the city and minutiae. Also Rob's London and John Rogers. Very interesting.
I hope a similar extension gets reconsidered in the near future, though, using the Victoria line instead. The A23 in Brixton probably has the most buses running along it of any road in London, and Brixton, Streatham, Thornton Heath, Norbury and Croydon all have a huge number of buses linking each other. A tube line would be more efficient.
@@nickbarber2080 As I said in a reply below: "What I've seen suggested is to split the Victoria line into two and run Walthamstow Central to Victoria and KXSP to Croydon. So there'd be two parallel tracks in each direction for the central section. This is going to be expensive."
Always a pleasure, Jago Old Boy. What a novel idea from UERL. It's interesting to know the paucity of tube lines in Saarfeest London occasioned a proposal of two, but somewhat irksome to reflect on the fate of a comprehensive tramway network left to rot on the vine. Following on from the ill considered proliferation of lines during the Victorian and Edwardian eras, the question of whether TfL ought to take on and make more of the ex-Southern suburban network is still a very live issue.
I've no doubt the old trams struggled on it, but as someone who has worked in Sheffield and Bradford (both very hilly cities), I can't help but smile on hearing Brixton Hill described as "fearsomely steep" modern trams are less easily defeated by gradients - there's a section of the Sheffield tramway that's nearly 1 in 8
All those abbreviations on the Tube. UERL, CCEHR, they all put me in mind of Beverley Hills cop 3: "Det. Sgt. William 'Billy' Rosewood: I'm DDO-JSIOC. Axel: The jay gee jojo see? What is that?"
"Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the VP is such a VIP, shouldn't we keep the PC on the QT? Because if it leaks to the VC, he could end up MIA and then we'd all be put on KP." - Adrian Cronauer, _Good Morning, Vietnam_
A good reason for not extending underground lines to South London is the geology. It's clay and gravel submersed in water. The sort of thing about which a professional tunnelling engineer is not going to have wet dreams. Well, yes. They are going to be wet, but not in any sense a good way.
As someone who has lived in one part of Streatham or another almost all my life (+77 yo) I always understood the main (or at least contributing) reason the tube never extended into Streatham, or anywhere else further south east, was; water? That is, highly saturated ground the tunnels would run in to, pretty much immediately before (north of) Brixton hill? I'm not terribly familiar with the hydrology of the area, but the Northern line through Balham and Tooting was thought to have missed it and there it remained. There was, of course, the "Streatham Spa" area north east of Streatham Hill station and the somewhat unpredictable water flows in the Streatham Common area. A contributing factor, perhaps? Speaking of unusual water flows around Streatham Common, South Londoners may know of the Inkspot Brewery actually on Streatham Common, just by 'The Rookery'? I had cause to chat with a bloke from there once and I was curious as to how the mineral rich Spa Water for which Streatham was known in Victorian times, could be used to make beer. Notoriously dependant on good water. Oh no, he said, we don't get our water from around here, we get it from The Chilterns! For those who don't know, The Chilterns are miles away to the North, way past the north end of The Northern line, out near Princes Risborough! But that means crossing the Thames Valley, I said. Right, he said, our well is something like 200 metres deep and is prehistoric water! They apparently have rights to take like 20,000 gallons a day, but only actually draw 2000 gallons a day. My numbers may be wrong, but its a pretty astonishing factoid to contemplate!
I think this idea did have some merit tbh, especially given the fact that intentionally or not it was basically proposed twice - the Brixton section of the Victoria Line even seems a bit indicative of that. The old wisdom of 'the Tube doesn't need to extend south, they have lots of railways and trams already' always struck me as short-sighted. Our commuter rails are not rapid transit like the Tube; not in frequency of service or distance between stops. The once extensive tram system of days gone by is no more of course - so this just leaves a glaring hole in south London's transport system for the most part. Boroughs like Kingston upon Thames, Sutton, Bexley, Bromley and even a lot of Lewisham and Greenwich are reliant almost entirely on commuter rail and buses, which certainly does slow things up for journeys into the city. Systems like the DLR and Elizabeth line only just cross south of the river, and whilst the Overground does penetrate much further it obviously doesn't cover many areas of the south of the city, and isn't quite rapid transit in any case. Tramlink is great but it again, only covers a relatively localised area of the city as it was mainly built to serve Croydon (and with good reason.) Who knows what the future holds. Hopefully something happens; maybe the 27th time's the charm with that Bakerloo Line extension eh(!) Great video!
Don't forget the other southern extension to Sutton via Morden South. What's utterly bonkers is that the Northern Line does run to Morden South, which would provide a cheap new station and useful interchange. As for Edgware, the Edgware to Watford Junction running rights pre-dated the Northern Line, which made it a much easier (until, with all the expensive bits done, it was cancelled). Staying south, there's the probable extension to Clapham Junction.
Darn, the first few minutes saw me with glass in hand, and a good half- dozen opportunities for CTY's mugshot to appear, only to be thwarted! Oh well, why waste good whisky? ;))
with all this knowledge of unbuilt London tube, that Jago have, I feel like we should gift him Nimby rail just so we can see what London will look like, if Jago have control
love your footage of Morden station. The aquarium and plant pots are still there but that old diesel No.93 bus has long gone. Very interesting video as usual, thankyou
Loved doing a Sunday duty from Merton Garage on the 93 as was a shortened service from Morden to Putney Bridge Station. Rest of week operated by Sutton Garage and many services ran through to and from Sutton. The canteen at Morden Station was one of the best in SW London. If had a meal relief of over an hour and taken at AL would often jump on a tube from Colliers Wood to Morden to have a meal in their canteen.
They could still build the line somewhat, with the tram instead of the train. It would remove most of the buses that clog the road from South Croydon all the way to Brixton. Just one tram line and all the buses disappear!
you should have left the other one up, you know who your real friends are when they go looking for you on a friday night when you are not where you were expected to be.
@@VictorianDadIt was okay but it was accidentally released early, commented on and privated after. Because of this the date of the video was from two weeks ago. Because of this it didn't show up in the subscriptions of yesterday and also appeared as being released two weeks ago on his website.
@@VictorianDad just was released out of schedule two weeks ago, hidden , then unhidden but not uploaded yesterday as it should have been so done as "new release" today. Jago's schedule being as reliable as a northern trains service at the present time
I know (thanks to your videos!) that the Victoria Line was built on the cheap, but it really makes no sense that they stopped at Brixton instead of carrying on up (under) the A23. Lost count of the number of times I've had to wait for the bus at Brixton after a night out, and there are no kebab shops (unlike Streatham)!
An actual tube line in south London might have been very tricky to construct. If I remember my school geography lessons correctly, the ground is full of silts, sands and gravels so reusing/recycling an existing surface line would probably (still) be cheaper. That said, there is maybe some scope for extending the Northern and/or Victoria lines southward. Probably the Victoria as the Northern is complicated enough.
Love this video . On a personal level my late parents lived in Sanderstead almost 70 years ago and left there before I arrived . I ended up in Surrey myself after living in North London but left 30 years ago . Thanks
Brixton-Croydon has always seemed to me an obvious route for a tube line, so it being suggested by actual authorities several times is no surprise. And re trams and gradients, they used to go up Dog Kennel Hill in Dulwich which must have been interesting, it's way steeper than Brixton hill which is nothing for a tram
I have always wondered why the LONDON UNDERGROUND no longer uses the flood barriers, i would have thought they were useful, perhaps you can make a video telling us why, a lot of them have never been removed why is that.
I used to live on Burgees Park and there was always a rumour they’d make the entrance to the park opposite Tesco the entrance. It would help connect the Victoria line and northern line to New cross
Even as a Northerner with a passing interest in railway infrastructure etc, up until now I thought I'd always followed Jago's explanations of the various owners / holding companies etc of the multiple "tube" lines....until today. You have broken me. Congratulations 😂
Looking at the clearing house diagram at 3:53 its surprising for me to realise my late father was passed out on every single signal box there was in that picture, whether the giant Odeon at Gloucester Road, the gawjus bijou Odeon's at Forest Hill and E Croydon to the busy Norwood Junction, D grade he relief'd all down the Elmers End line and worked up as far as Balham and occasionally could be found at Purley and Purley Oaks Odeon signalboxes. C grade he was often reliefing from Beckenham Junction covering down to Chislehurst, I am astonished that in his retiring years he could still maintain in his head virtually every panel he worked to the timings, layout and special requirements of each signal box he worked at. Funny little snapshot was in the very early 70's after he had decommissioned Sole St and the other small lever boxes between Strood and Farningham Road, Sole St's Wickham trolley parked beside the station in a little goods platform was moved to Penge East (yes there was a little goods platform there too) for tunnel inspection and they had a little ceremony to bid the trolley farewell consisting of my father, the stationmaster Reg and a rather bored mum and myself and brother. The trolley was there for inspection duty for the other Rochester railway bridge and the Higham tunnels as there was nowhere to store it except at Hoo yards and BR didn't like that idea as half the yard was turned over to breaking old Portsmouth express EMU's and the wreckers were known to be a little energetic with the idea that anything on their lines was game on and the other side was busy with Transfesa traffic so Sole St the trolley did go. The trolley also made its own way to Penge on a sunday afternoon which must have really impressed the coastal express drivers a ton.
According to a book on South London trams,the rush hour headways,were literally operating at 90 seconds,in both directions! There was a figure of 8,operation,operating all day and night! Came off the Strand,and went to Streatham! Anyway,it was an extremely intensive operation! Thank you Jago,for another sideline journey into London's past! Thank you 😇 😊!
That latter proposal looks as though it sought to take pressure off surface transport between Brixton, Streatham and Croydon - the old A23 - whilst offering a parallel rail option about a mile away from the existing Norbury cut off Brighton line. With all those interchanges it might have been an interesting option but, in the post war bureaucratic inertia which haunts any such radical proposals even to this day, the response was probably "well, there's already lots of buses (and possibly, at the time, trams and trolley buses) already chugging around where they want to put it, so that should be good enough for now...".
If the Northern Line wasn’t going to extend to Streatham. Why not extend the Victoria Line from Brixton to Streatham and to Crystal Palace. With the Bakerloo Line to extend to Lewisham and to Bromley and/or Hayes.
Tres bon . Whitingly or otherwise, these stories of proposed and undeveloped lines bring-out a consistent factor . . . that greed and apparently mindless economic competition amongst the forces of capital can fill in the gaps that central planning neglects and even when unfulfilled stimulate the thought process involved in subsequent central planning. Who would have guessed ? The virtues of a mixed economy.
Believe that many arguments take place at TfL with the different factions of Buses, Underground, Overground and Taxis and the odd ones, River and Cable Car over who gets the most funding and support.
Ah, night footage of London again. Much appreciated. Strange as it sounds, but it looks brighter (on camera at least) than during the day. Or at least, more colourful.
as the epitome of silly questions, has Mr Hazzard ever done an episode in which *all* of the various London railways are mentioned? (the unreeling of the list of participants in this one made me think of that)
Maybe the similarity of the routes is that they both basically follow the original route of the A23, much like the (current) Bakerloo extension plan basically follows the A2/A21, or even the 1864 Metropolitan following the A501
Maybe a video idea would be why London Railway companies called themselves by terminus stations and not something snazzy to modern viewers of your channel. Like maybe CleanRail, FastRail or SootytCrowdedRail
Never thought my local station growing up would be in one of your videos! Regarding what you said about croydon not having a north station, there isnt really an area designated as North croydon, it basically just merges into selhurst and norwood.
I think extending the Victoria Line south would be a better idea purely because it would be better able to cope with the additional traffic than the Northern Line.
It would still probably be overcrowded if extended all the way to Croydon. An extension as far as Tulse Hill via Herne Hill would probably have merit though. And Brixton Tube station needs a second entrance, on the opposite side of the road.
Interestingly your RCH map (3:45) shows the tunnel between Sydenham Hill and Penge as "Sydenham" while today (and for as long as I can recall, which is too long) it has been "Penge". Wonder when it changed.
Enjoyed it but am totally confused by it. That may be partly down to not having visited London for nearly forty years and never spent more than a week in total there, so the geography of the place is a mystery to me. All those stations and companies… gee whizz!
I do think a tube line under the A23 from Brixton to Croydon would be really useful. I wonder how you'd do it in today's climate? As many say the Victoria Line is too overcrowded to continue beyond Brixton.
What I've seen suggested is to split the Victoria line into two and run Walthamstow Central to Victoria and KXSP to Croydon. So there'd be two parallel tracks in each direction for the central section. This is going to be expensive.
Jago, have you seen (I think there are a few proposals now and over the years) a way of "fixing" the Northern Line, which would be to split it up into different lines?
Thank you for this entertaining and informative video. I'm a lttle intrigued by 'Clapham Park' - per Google Maps this appear no longer to be a park, and not to be very near Clapham. It also does not seem to be in any sort of direct line between Brixton and Streatham. Is there any information on where Clapham Park station would have been?
Do people actually like train routes that split and separate and you have to be in the correct coach to go to where you want? I've always known of the southern train from London - Haywards Heath then it splits one goes to south Coast other west coast. Apparently a lot of trains don't do that in other parts of the country.
That doesn't normally (I don't think I've ever seen it) happen with the Tube, there are split lines but each train (all carriages) goes to the destination, just you can have trains for different destinations run on the same 'Line'
would wonder if they would could should have more connection like heathrow got tube heathrow express e line but there only gatwick express stansted express but also again dlr to city airport so again would if knowing cost and all be but we still so slow behind still like why eline had not connte3ct hoblorn sqation
The Northern Line is already the Southernmost tube line. Extending it further South would make the name even sillier. They really ought to do just that.
Rather than extending the Northern Line south East, they should go further South with it - all the way to Sutton.
The Bakerkoo Line could (and should) be extended south east all the way to Bromley South station via either Peckham or Lewisham. I really do think Bromley needs to be connected to the Underground network as it's a sizable place. The Bakerkoo extension could think link up Bromley North with Bromley South for the first time ever. Meaning no more buses to get from Bromley N to Bromley S, as you could just stay on the Tube.
While the Victoria Line should also extend due South (from Brixton) to Croydon. Or more specifically East Croydon station - to take pressure and congestion off Southern services.
Of course in an ideal world, all three projects would be completed by 2040. But seeing as it's not, my guess is that only two of these three projects will ever see the light of day.
Which one will get the boot is anyone's guess; but even if two are completed, don't expect this to be done by 2040. More like 2050, at the rate big transport infrastructure projects go, in the UK. If we were China - all three would be completed, and operating by 2030!
Sutton? No ambition. Calais!
@@adamcetinkent Mr. Watkin, is that you? 😉
I’m not sure extending the Victoria Line to East Croydon would make sense. What intermediate stops would it have between Croydon and Brixton? Could it compete with the journey time of remaining on a London-bound train to Victoria and changing there? I doubt it.
@SimonForrester I don't know. Maybe it would follow Brixton Hill, and have a Brixton Hill tube station at the top of it ....then go via Streatham (Streatham Hill station?), then on to Norbury....then one or two more stops before ending up at E Croydon. So three or four stops between Brixton and E Croydon.
I think that would definitely be quicker than Southern rail services. Especially as it would be more frequent. Every 2-3 mins Vs every 15-20 mins. So I'd say it would definitely be worth it.
The least viable project of the three would imo be the Northern Line extension from Morden to Sutton.
Your videos really scratch this random itch I have in my brain that for some reason makes me want to consume information about London and its transportation at a rapid rate. Please keep up the great work.
Jay Foreman's Unfinished London series is great! I also like Joolz Guides - he talks about different areas of the city and minutiae. Also Rob's London and John Rogers. Very interesting.
@ I love Unfinished London; I just wish there was more frequent uploads on the series. I'll definitely check out your other recommendations though!
@@Hollow-235glad I’m not the only one who’s been having this @ nug
@@Hollow-235 If you know of others, send them my way. This is my city but it has such a long and storied history and I love learning about it.
I do so hope that the Bakerloo to Lewisham gets built. It's such a glaring missing link, it disturbs my sense of balance.
As someone from Sanderstead, we need this so bad. Too many commuters for just two trains/hour
even with the maps included (thanks JH) I am still lost with all those abbreviations on the Tube. UERL, CCEHR, etc.
I hope a similar extension gets reconsidered in the near future, though, using the Victoria line instead. The A23 in Brixton probably has the most buses running along it of any road in London, and Brixton, Streatham, Thornton Heath, Norbury and Croydon all have a huge number of buses linking each other. A tube line would be more efficient.
The Victoria is at (more than?) capacity as it is....
@@nickbarber2080 As I said in a reply below: "What I've seen suggested is to split the Victoria line into two and run Walthamstow Central to Victoria and KXSP to Croydon. So there'd be two parallel tracks in each direction for the central section. This is going to be expensive."
This may also divert passengers from East Croydon station, which would help reduce the massive bottleneck on the Brighton Main Line there.
It would have made far better use of the core capacity than the little stub to Battersea :(
Always a pleasure, Jago Old Boy. What a novel idea from UERL. It's interesting to know the paucity of tube lines in Saarfeest London occasioned a proposal of two, but somewhat irksome to reflect on the fate of a comprehensive tramway network left to rot on the vine.
Following on from the ill considered proliferation of lines during the Victorian and Edwardian eras, the question of whether TfL ought to take on and make more of the ex-Southern suburban network is still a very live issue.
I've no doubt the old trams struggled on it, but as someone who has worked in Sheffield and Bradford (both very hilly cities), I can't help but smile on hearing Brixton Hill described as "fearsomely steep"
modern trams are less easily defeated by gradients - there's a section of the Sheffield tramway that's nearly 1 in 8
I believe the original trams on that route were cable hauled. They wouldn't have had so much trouble if balanced with a car going down the hill.
That slog from Bradford city centre to wibsey it just doesn't stop. Might have walked it after a *few* sherbets 😂
All those abbreviations on the Tube. UERL, CCEHR, they all put me in mind of Beverley Hills cop 3:
"Det. Sgt. William 'Billy' Rosewood: I'm DDO-JSIOC.
Axel: The jay gee jojo see? What is that?"
"Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the VP is such a VIP, shouldn't we keep the PC on the QT? Because if it leaks to the VC, he could end up MIA and then we'd all be put on KP."
- Adrian Cronauer, _Good Morning, Vietnam_
A good reason for not extending underground lines to South London is the geology.
It's clay and gravel submersed in water. The sort of thing about which a professional tunnelling engineer is not going to have wet dreams.
Well, yes. They are going to be wet, but not in any sense a good way.
Both Balham, and the Borough cave-in spring to mind. Probably different today though ,with pressure grouting and other new fangled stuff
@@phaasch To be fair, I'm not an engineer except in the software sense.
So, if anything I've said is bollocks, err, it is.
@@grahamstubbs4962 I think we're probably in more or less the same boat!
@@phaasch High fives! 🙂
@@phaasch Not sure, but I feel a carriage would be a better form of transport.
Go further south to use a boat, maybe. 🤔
Stood at stockwell with a platform deep in passengers this hits differently
As someone who has lived in one part of Streatham or another almost all my life (+77 yo) I always understood the main (or at least contributing) reason the tube never extended into Streatham, or anywhere else further south east, was; water? That is, highly saturated ground the tunnels would run in to, pretty much immediately before (north of) Brixton hill?
I'm not terribly familiar with the hydrology of the area, but the Northern line through Balham and Tooting was thought to have missed it and there it remained. There was, of course, the "Streatham Spa" area north east of Streatham Hill station and the somewhat unpredictable water flows in the Streatham Common area. A contributing factor, perhaps?
Speaking of unusual water flows around Streatham Common, South Londoners may know of the Inkspot Brewery actually on Streatham Common, just by 'The Rookery'? I had cause to chat with a bloke from there once and I was curious as to how the mineral rich Spa Water for which Streatham was known in Victorian times, could be used to make beer. Notoriously dependant on good water. Oh no, he said, we don't get our water from around here, we get it from The Chilterns!
For those who don't know, The Chilterns are miles away to the North, way past the north end of The Northern line, out near Princes Risborough! But that means crossing the Thames Valley, I said. Right, he said, our well is something like 200 metres deep and is prehistoric water! They apparently have rights to take like 20,000 gallons a day, but only actually draw 2000 gallons a day. My numbers may be wrong, but its a pretty astonishing factoid to contemplate!
I think this idea did have some merit tbh, especially given the fact that intentionally or not it was basically proposed twice - the Brixton section of the Victoria Line even seems a bit indicative of that.
The old wisdom of 'the Tube doesn't need to extend south, they have lots of railways and trams already' always struck me as short-sighted. Our commuter rails are not rapid transit like the Tube; not in frequency of service or distance between stops. The once extensive tram system of days gone by is no more of course - so this just leaves a glaring hole in south London's transport system for the most part. Boroughs like Kingston upon Thames, Sutton, Bexley, Bromley and even a lot of Lewisham and Greenwich are reliant almost entirely on commuter rail and buses, which certainly does slow things up for journeys into the city. Systems like the DLR and Elizabeth line only just cross south of the river, and whilst the Overground does penetrate much further it obviously doesn't cover many areas of the south of the city, and isn't quite rapid transit in any case. Tramlink is great but it again, only covers a relatively localised area of the city as it was mainly built to serve Croydon (and with good reason.)
Who knows what the future holds. Hopefully something happens; maybe the 27th time's the charm with that Bakerloo Line extension eh(!)
Great video!
Don't forget the other southern extension to Sutton via Morden South. What's utterly bonkers is that the Northern Line does run to Morden South, which would provide a cheap new station and useful interchange. As for Edgware, the Edgware to Watford Junction running rights pre-dated the Northern Line, which made it a much easier (until, with all the expensive bits done, it was cancelled). Staying south, there's the probable extension to Clapham Junction.
Darn, the first few minutes saw me with glass in hand, and a good half- dozen opportunities for CTY's mugshot to appear, only to be thwarted!
Oh well, why waste good whisky? ;))
Ditto.
@@roderickmain9697 Ditto. On the edge of my seat. Oh, the let-down!
What an excellent antidote. You're giving me naughty ideas.
with all this knowledge of unbuilt London tube, that Jago have, I feel like we should gift him Nimby rail just so we can see what London will look like, if Jago have control
maybe we should give him that, so we can see the perfect London underground of Jago
love your footage of Morden station. The aquarium and plant pots are still there but that old diesel No.93 bus has long gone. Very interesting video as usual, thankyou
Loved doing a Sunday duty from Merton Garage on the 93 as was a shortened service from Morden to Putney Bridge Station. Rest of week operated by Sutton Garage and many services ran through to and from Sutton. The canteen at Morden Station was one of the best in SW London. If had a meal relief of over an hour and taken at AL would often jump on a tube from Colliers Wood to Morden to have a meal in their canteen.
They could still build the line somewhat, with the tram instead of the train. It would remove most of the buses that clog the road from South Croydon all the way to Brixton. Just one tram line and all the buses disappear!
We do not talk about what happened to North Croydon...
you should have left the other one up, you know who your real friends are when they go looking for you on a friday night when you are not where you were expected to be.
Why was the other one 'wrong'?
I watched it and it seemed OK to me.
@@VictorianDadIt was okay but it was accidentally released early, commented on and privated after. Because of this the date of the video was from two weeks ago. Because of this it didn't show up in the subscriptions of yesterday and also appeared as being released two weeks ago on his website.
@@VictorianDad just was released out of schedule two weeks ago, hidden , then unhidden but not uploaded yesterday as it should have been so done as "new release" today. Jago's schedule being as reliable as a northern trains service at the present time
Aren't we all "friends" on this channel...........the Friends of Jago Society?
I know (thanks to your videos!) that the Victoria Line was built on the cheap, but it really makes no sense that they stopped at Brixton instead of carrying on up (under) the A23. Lost count of the number of times I've had to wait for the bus at Brixton after a night out, and there are no kebab shops (unlike Streatham)!
An actual tube line in south London might have been very tricky to construct. If I remember my school geography lessons correctly, the ground is full of silts, sands and gravels so reusing/recycling an existing surface line would probably (still) be cheaper. That said, there is maybe some scope for extending the Northern and/or Victoria lines southward. Probably the Victoria as the Northern is complicated enough.
Love this video . On a personal level my late parents lived in Sanderstead almost 70 years ago and left there before I arrived . I ended up in Surrey myself after living in North London but left 30 years ago . Thanks
Brixton-Croydon has always seemed to me an obvious route for a tube line, so it being suggested by actual authorities several times is no surprise. And re trams and gradients, they used to go up Dog Kennel Hill in Dulwich which must have been interesting, it's way steeper than Brixton hill which is nothing for a tram
I have always wondered why the LONDON UNDERGROUND no longer uses the flood barriers, i would have thought they were useful, perhaps you can make a video telling us why, a lot of them have never been removed why is that.
I used to live on Burgees Park and there was always a rumour they’d make the entrance to the park opposite Tesco the entrance. It would help connect the Victoria line and northern line to New cross
Even as a Northerner with a passing interest in railway infrastructure etc, up until now I thought I'd always followed Jago's explanations of the various owners / holding companies etc of the multiple "tube" lines....until today. You have broken me. Congratulations 😂
Looking at the clearing house diagram at 3:53 its surprising for me to realise my late father was passed out on every single signal box there was in that picture, whether the giant Odeon at Gloucester Road, the gawjus bijou Odeon's at Forest Hill and E Croydon to the busy Norwood Junction, D grade he relief'd all down the Elmers End line and worked up as far as Balham and occasionally could be found at Purley and Purley Oaks Odeon signalboxes. C grade he was often reliefing from Beckenham Junction covering down to Chislehurst, I am astonished that in his retiring years he could still maintain in his head virtually every panel he worked to the timings, layout and special requirements of each signal box he worked at. Funny little snapshot was in the very early 70's after he had decommissioned Sole St and the other small lever boxes between Strood and Farningham Road, Sole St's Wickham trolley parked beside the station in a little goods platform was moved to Penge East (yes there was a little goods platform there too) for tunnel inspection and they had a little ceremony to bid the trolley farewell consisting of my father, the stationmaster Reg and a rather bored mum and myself and brother. The trolley was there for inspection duty for the other Rochester railway bridge and the Higham tunnels as there was nowhere to store it except at Hoo yards and BR didn't like that idea as half the yard was turned over to breaking old Portsmouth express EMU's and the wreckers were known to be a little energetic with the idea that anything on their lines was game on and the other side was busy with Transfesa traffic so Sole St the trolley did go. The trolley also made its own way to Penge on a sunday afternoon which must have really impressed the coastal express drivers a ton.
In the station naming spirit of the time, North Croydon would be found in Penge.
According to a book on South London trams,the rush hour headways,were literally operating at 90 seconds,in both directions! There was a figure of 8,operation,operating all day and night! Came off the Strand,and went to Streatham! Anyway,it was an extremely intensive operation! Thank you Jago,for another sideline journey into London's past! Thank you 😇 😊!
That latter proposal looks as though it sought to take pressure off surface transport between Brixton, Streatham and Croydon - the old A23 - whilst offering a parallel rail option about a mile away from the existing Norbury cut off Brighton line. With all those interchanges it might have been an interesting option but, in the post war bureaucratic inertia which haunts any such radical proposals even to this day, the response was probably "well, there's already lots of buses (and possibly, at the time, trams and trolley buses) already chugging around where they want to put it, so that should be good enough for now...".
If the Northern Line wasn’t going to extend to Streatham. Why not extend the Victoria Line from Brixton to Streatham and to Crystal Palace. With the Bakerloo Line to extend to Lewisham and to Bromley and/or Hayes.
Tres bon .
Whitingly or otherwise, these stories of proposed and undeveloped lines bring-out a consistent factor . . . that greed and apparently mindless economic competition amongst the forces of capital can fill in the gaps that central planning neglects and even when unfulfilled stimulate the thought process involved in subsequent central planning. Who would have guessed ? The virtues of a mixed economy.
North Croydon station would be perfect for a novel.🤔
omg the mayday stop on the victoria line extension 😭 make it soooooo (croydon university hospital looking on bemusedly)
Sanderstead station is nowhere near what most people would regard as Sanderstead proper.
There is nothing that starts my Saturday more than watching the newest video from the man himself, JagoHazzard. and the videos get better everytime
As someone who lives near Clapham Park, that place desperately needs a tube line. The bus connections aren’t direct and it sucks
Believe that many arguments take place at TfL with the different factions of Buses, Underground, Overground and Taxis and the odd ones, River and Cable Car over who gets the most funding and support.
Ah, night footage of London again. Much appreciated. Strange as it sounds, but it looks brighter (on camera at least) than during the day. Or at least, more colourful.
London's grey daylight isn't as illuminating as streetlights
At Kennington there is/was also a sidings that holds (from memory) 2 trains maybe 3? Not just the loop.
Whato Jago,
It's worth watching it twice.
Mayday? Interesting name for a proposed station 😮
Quest idea: find North Croydon
as the epitome of silly questions,
has Mr Hazzard ever done an episode in which *all* of the various
London railways are mentioned?
(the unreeling of the list of participants in this one made me think of that)
Hooray! I wondered where this one went :D
Great to see - thank Jago
ROUND TWO
ding ding, I demand a rematch
Maybe the similarity of the routes is that they both basically follow the original route of the A23, much like the (current) Bakerloo extension plan basically follows the A2/A21, or even the 1864 Metropolitan following the A501
Maybe a video idea would be why London Railway companies called themselves by terminus stations and not something snazzy to modern viewers of your channel. Like maybe CleanRail, FastRail or SootytCrowdedRail
Geoff Marshall is still hoping to see an extension to Corrour....
As an ex-pat, I love seeing the scenes of London in the videos.
become a re-pat!
I think that the Northern Line should extend to Streatham. And the Victoria Line to extend from Brixton to Crystal Palace.
It Returns….
Saw the thumbnail and for some reason read Morden as Mordor… wonder what kind of service that would be
A tube would be handy as one does not simply walk into Morden.
Never thought my local station growing up would be in one of your videos!
Regarding what you said about croydon not having a north station, there isnt really an area designated as North croydon, it basically just merges into selhurst and norwood.
But can you really call it the Northern Line if it runs all the way to the southeast?! Preposterous!
I think extending the Victoria Line south would be a better idea purely because it would be better able to cope with the additional traffic than the Northern Line.
It would still probably be overcrowded if extended all the way to Croydon. An extension as far as Tulse Hill via Herne Hill would probably have merit though. And Brixton Tube station needs a second entrance, on the opposite side of the road.
Very good - How many more lines do they want to build??? 😉🚂🚂🚂
I cannot think of my comment prior now discarded to the dustbin of careless time, probably that Mayday and North Croydon are much the same place.
We got it one day early! Yay!
It's still prononced Sarnderstid,though....
Interestingly your RCH map (3:45) shows the tunnel between Sydenham Hill and Penge as "Sydenham" while today (and for as long as I can recall, which is too long) it has been "Penge". Wonder when it changed.
Good reuploaded video! I love the part of the Victoria line map that shows… instead of Tronton Heath we got mayday 😅😅😅😅
Great Sunday viewing with Jago
It's Saturday.
It’s Friday.
@@Penhouse9476 its saturday last fortnight that should have been last night
Indeed I shall wait 30hrs before watching this.
@@Penhouse9476 It's Thursday.
Stop fannying about! Build a tube line all the eay to Brighton! 😂
Funny you should say that…
doing my part.
Enjoyed it but am totally confused by it. That may be partly down to not having visited London for nearly forty years and never spent more than a week in total there, so the geography of the place is a mystery to me. All those stations and companies… gee whizz!
NORTH CROYDON?!?!???!
blasphemy
Are there any rough ideas as to where the proposed stops at Clapham Park, Lower Streatham and North Croydon would likely be sited?
I do think a tube line under the A23 from Brixton to Croydon would be really useful. I wonder how you'd do it in today's climate? As many say the Victoria Line is too overcrowded to continue beyond Brixton.
What I've seen suggested is to split the Victoria line into two and run Walthamstow Central to Victoria and KXSP to Croydon. So there'd be two parallel tracks in each direction for the central section. This is going to be expensive.
Jago, have you seen (I think there are a few proposals now and over the years) a way of "fixing" the Northern Line, which would be to split it up into different lines?
Thank you for this entertaining and informative video. I'm a lttle intrigued by 'Clapham Park' - per Google Maps this appear no longer to be a park, and not to be very near Clapham. It also does not seem to be in any sort of direct line between Brixton and Streatham. Is there any information on where Clapham Park station would have been?
Can you confirm who (specifically not Underground) Electric Railways of London were - I think they were the City and South London chaps ?
Do people actually like train routes that split and separate and you have to be in the correct coach to go to where you want? I've always known of the southern train from London - Haywards Heath then it splits one goes to south Coast other west coast. Apparently a lot of trains don't do that in other parts of the country.
That doesn't normally (I don't think I've ever seen it) happen with the Tube, there are split lines but each train (all carriages) goes to the destination, just you can have trains for different destinations run on the same 'Line'
Your voiceover is always perfect 🔥
Jago, on a Saturday?! Does this mean no Jago and Jon double bill tomorrow?
Why reupload?
He accidentally released it early (about two weeks ago) at the same time as another video
👍🏻🇬🇧👀...
would wonder if they would could should have more connection like heathrow got tube heathrow express e line but there only gatwick express stansted express but also again dlr to city airport so again would if knowing cost and all be but we still so slow behind still like why eline had not connte3ct hoblorn sqation
Na . Tube trains belong to North and Central London and Southern Region trains belong in South London .
First 😊
nah, its a re-upload so it doesnt count. I demand the 21 old comments plus mine off the original back
@@highpath4776 hahahahahaha......ill share it
Your videos are always a great example of quality content. Keep leading us into the world of your talent and inspiration!🥳🏂🌱