This was a fabulous interview! As someone who did volunteer work for FAIR (2011-2013), it was fascinating to hear about the debates over Book of Mormon geography from Jonathan's perspective. I also love the way he defines "translation" when it comes to Joseph Smith producing the Book of Mormon; it seems like such a lovely way for traditional Latter-day Saints to be able to appreciate the influences Smith brought with him into the book's production. I love y'all's analogy for it, that the Book of Mormon is not a didactic sermon as much as it is a conversation, Jonathan Edwards being a major interlocutor. Thanks for such a wonderful conversation!
@@TheBackyardProfessor I would love to talk with you! I remember seeing your content back around 2012 or so and really enjoying it; I've also seen your more recent work with Mormon Discussions and definitely appreciate that too! What's your preferred method of communication (email, social media, etc.)?
Jonathan Neville has done extensive research, probably more than most have. His ideas make sense. The opposition to his theories is pretty great. I've made positive comments on many of the videos he s been on and others have been adamantly against him referring me to a website called : Neville-Neville land. I even ended up accidentally e-mailing Dan Peterson who made it clear he is not a fan of Neville and even said Neville is close to apostasy. What a strange thing to say because Neville is probably the strongest believer you'll find. Neville obviously has it a nerve with these people, probably because what he's teaching is true!!!
Sounds like an interesting book. I would be interested to see his non-biblical parallels. I agree with a lot of what Jonathan says about Joseph Smith lexicon and how it shouldn't necessarily challenge the Book of Mormon's historicity. However, there are some instances that are anachronistic. We have been seeking a greater knowledge of the non-biblical religious terminology since the 1980s. See Mark D. Thomas, “Revival Language in the Book of Mormon,” Sunstone, Issue 39, May-June 1983. I'm glad to see others interested in this topic.
It is very fascinating to have a more orthodox Mormon engaging the text of the BOM this way. When I first caught wind of his project I was intrigued. I can say that it has received attention from other BOM scholars as well.
Great interview! I am a big Jonathan Neville fan (attended his in person presentation at BOM evidence conference about this topic and loved it)! Now I am more interested in seeking out Jonathan Edward's writings. Loved what Jonathan said about how it doesn't make sense that Joseph Smith would not have been prepared to be a prophet like other prophets had been (that joseph was just an ignorant farm boy who had an angel sprung on him.. well said), and the importance of agreeing on the basic facts then looking at multiple interpretations, and which interpretations best explain the facts. This was great. Thanks!
Jonathan Edwards was only part of the larger revival language that appears in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith didn't have to read Edwards because his language and views had been adopted by subsequent revival preachers. Revival language in the Book of Mormon isn't limited to Jonathan Edward.
Joseph Smith and early Mormons believed the hemispheric geography, that Lehi landed in South America, and that Panama was the narrow neck of land. The Mound Builders didn't just build the North American mounds but Joseph Smith and his contemporaries saw the mounds of North America as part of a chain of ruins that begins in South America and ends in the Great Lakes Region, where they were destroyed. The reception history of the Book of Mormon is the Mound Builder Myth, which was hemispheric in its geography. It was invented to explain who built the ancient works and ruins since it would require (as they incorrectly thought) a higher civilization than what the Indians were capable of producing.
History of the Pioneer Settlement of Phelps and Gorham’s Purchase and Morris' Reserve by O. Turner starting around page 214 is where the author of the book talks about what Joseph Smith and his family were like, as the author knew him and his family. The book can be found on archive
MBM speaking on the academic cycle of perpetuated religious thought. 9:10 "I don't care what a Christian thought about Paul's letter in 300AD. I want to know what the Corinthians thought about Scripture." This is the basic sentiment of many Christian free thinkers against largely accepted doctrines by larger religious institutions.
Around minute 51:00 there's interesting point made about how "types" is not a biblical word. The only thing I can add here is that 1 Peter 3:21 when it refers to baptism being an "antitype" which saves us when contrasted to how Noah saved from the sin of the world through the flood. It would be implied that the Flood was a type in order for baptism to be the antitype. This opens up the door for reading types of the Old Testament into anti-types of the New Testament.
"antitype" does not appear in the KJV but post-1830 translations and commentaries, such as Young's Literal Translation (1862), the New KJV (1975), the Literal Standard Version (2020), Ellicott's commentary (1897). etc.
Hello Steven thanks so much for your work with this channel! I'm lds and I'm researching church history and your non biased very relaxed interviewing style is so helpful. You actually let your guest talk! I was really fascinated by your interview with Don Bradley as well and have a lot of questions I would want to ask him, do you know where he works/how I could contact him?
So it’s funny Neville touts that Edwards’ books are being sold in the vicinity of Palmyra where Smith lived, but would he acknowledge The Late War and View of the Hebrews also being available to Joseph?
That is a good point. That is something that can be another "multiple working hypothesis". I'll be releasing an interview with Dan Vogel next week. Please like and subscribe, if you haven't already.
👍 although its funny you referred to Brigham Young our second prophet and leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints as "Bring'em" I'm not offended because I'm not a child, but there are definitely people out there that might take offense to that lol just a word of caution. Although, freedom of speech so 👌 I have just recently found your channel through Rick Bennet and I enjoy what I've seen so far.
If Joseph Smith did truly possess a set of Gold Dipped Copper Plates, that were divinely given to his charge--then we will clearly need something more than his seer stone, if we wish to do a proper translation. I have found in my travels, in Latin America, these three BoM names. Rabanah; Maroni; and, Corianton. There was a time, that I believed that the Hill Cumorah, was in Nicaragua. There is a city there, of the name Masaya. I also found a town there with the name Rama.I no longer subscribe to the Central America theory--even though, I did find absolute proof, that Asian elephants, had once existed there. A bull, a cow, and a calf; tusks removed--and some kind of platform, on each of the adults backs--traveling in a southward direction. There were many other things, etched/incised on the cave wall, with a sharp instrument of some kind. I did not appreciate Dr. Paul R Cheesman's skepticism/cynicism--consequently, I refrained from sharing with him, the exact location. When John Brewer took me to his Mummy Cave, back in the Nineties--when we got to a certain point, he paused to tell me:"This is as far, as the Guardians Of The Cave, would permit me to take Cheesman. So, I told him that we could proceed no further. Paul was very angry, disappointed, and upset--but he turned back with me". I find it ironic, if not poignant, that The Guardians gave me ( David Joseph LeBaron ) a pass--whereas, righteous Paul Cheesman, was simply turned away. It was only on our return, that I noticed that John was quite jubilant. He stated: "I'm getting old, and for years, I have been praying to God, that he would send me an honest man, of His choosing, to whom, I could relinquish the charge of The Cave Of Ancient Records. And, when you apprised me that you were coming down from Washington, I told God, that I was going to take you to the Repository--and, that if He did not approve, to send His Messenger, to stop me, just as he had done, with Paul R Cheesman". John instructed me exactly how to gain access--albeit, we did not go inside. And, before starting back to my truck, John shared with me this: "Now, I have something more to tell you: "In this Cave, there is something of great historical significance. But, I cannot tell you what it is. When you choose to go in, you will see it for yourself". I immediately asked John if it was the Ark Of The Covenant. To which he replied: "I told you, I cannot tell you!" There are a lot of Ancient Records, in that Cave Of Treasures--perhaps going all the way back to Enoch. Who knows for certain--Perhaps Moroni's Joseph Smith set of Gold Dipped Copper plates, are reposing there--just waiting for Joseph Smith's True Heir, to do an actual translation--as opposed to channeling their contents, with a Seer Stone. Why not? After all, the True Hill Cumorah, according to Brigham Young, and Heber C Kimball, is what is called Mt. Nebo, near Nephi, Utah. P.S. I believe, that Ron Wyatt, found the Ark Of The Covenant. And, he also found the True Mount Sinai--as well as the Red Sea Crossing, in the Gulf Of Aqaba.
That is by far the most incredible comment I've ever come across. You may not see this, but if you're telling the truth, I very much hope you are the lucky person to find that successor and are able to deliver those treasures and relics to someone who will do right by them.
So I did watch the whole thing. Neville did mention the "Late War" textbook. If you place it side by side with the Alma war chapters of the Book of Mormon's it's like mirror images save for names being changed. Is this how God prepares His Prophets? Is this your radical thinking, Neville? God telling his Prophets to plagiarize text and pass it off as scripture?
This was a fabulous interview! As someone who did volunteer work for FAIR (2011-2013), it was fascinating to hear about the debates over Book of Mormon geography from Jonathan's perspective. I also love the way he defines "translation" when it comes to Joseph Smith producing the Book of Mormon; it seems like such a lovely way for traditional Latter-day Saints to be able to appreciate the influences Smith brought with him into the book's production. I love y'all's analogy for it, that the Book of Mormon is not a didactic sermon as much as it is a conversation, Jonathan Edwards being a major interlocutor.
Thanks for such a wonderful conversation!
I was one of the original founders of FAIR with Darryl Barksdale and Julie Ann Reynolds. You and I ought to get together and talk
@@TheBackyardProfessor I would love to talk with you! I remember seeing your content back around 2012 or so and really enjoying it; I've also seen your more recent work with Mormon Discussions and definitely appreciate that too! What's your preferred method of communication (email, social media, etc.)?
Your discussions are simply fascinating! Very well done and informative.
Jonathan Neville has done extensive research, probably more than most have. His ideas make sense. The opposition to his theories is pretty great. I've made positive comments on many of the videos he s been on and others have been adamantly against him referring me to a website called : Neville-Neville land. I even ended up accidentally e-mailing Dan Peterson who made it clear he is not a fan of Neville and even said Neville is close to apostasy. What a strange thing to say because Neville is probably the strongest believer you'll find. Neville obviously has it a nerve with these people, probably because what he's teaching is true!!!
I'm glad I've had him on. As a result of these interviews, there are some scholars that have taken notice of his work.
Sounds like an interesting book. I would be interested to see his non-biblical parallels. I agree with a lot of what Jonathan says about Joseph Smith lexicon and how it shouldn't necessarily challenge the Book of Mormon's historicity. However, there are some instances that are anachronistic. We have been seeking a greater knowledge of the non-biblical religious terminology since the 1980s. See Mark D. Thomas, “Revival Language in the Book of Mormon,” Sunstone, Issue 39, May-June 1983. I'm glad to see others interested in this topic.
It is very fascinating to have a more orthodox Mormon engaging the text of the BOM this way. When I first caught wind of his project I was intrigued. I can say that it has received attention from other BOM scholars as well.
Great interview! I am a big Jonathan Neville fan (attended his in person presentation at BOM evidence conference about this topic and loved it)! Now I am more interested in seeking out Jonathan Edward's writings. Loved what Jonathan said about how it doesn't make sense that Joseph Smith would not have been prepared to be a prophet like other prophets had been (that joseph was just an ignorant farm boy who had an angel sprung on him.. well said), and the importance of agreeing on the basic facts then looking at multiple interpretations, and which interpretations best explain the facts. This was great. Thanks!
Thanks for your feedback and I look forward to having you on to talk about your project as well.
Jonathan Edwards was only part of the larger revival language that appears in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith didn't have to read Edwards because his language and views had been adopted by subsequent revival preachers. Revival language in the Book of Mormon isn't limited to Jonathan Edward.
Joseph Smith and early Mormons believed the hemispheric geography, that Lehi landed in South America, and that Panama was the narrow neck of land. The Mound Builders didn't just build the North American mounds but Joseph Smith and his contemporaries saw the mounds of North America as part of a chain of ruins that begins in South America and ends in the Great Lakes Region, where they were destroyed. The reception history of the Book of Mormon is the Mound Builder Myth, which was hemispheric in its geography. It was invented to explain who built the ancient works and ruins since it would require (as they incorrectly thought) a higher civilization than what the Indians were capable of producing.
Excellent, real scholarship, so glad you found me 🙏
History of the Pioneer Settlement of Phelps and Gorham’s Purchase and Morris' Reserve by O. Turner starting around page 214 is where the author of the book talks about what Joseph Smith and his family were like, as the author knew him and his family. The book can be found on archive
Great interview. Going to buy a few of these books now.
MBM speaking on the academic cycle of perpetuated religious thought. 9:10
"I don't care what a Christian thought about Paul's letter in 300AD. I want to know what the Corinthians thought about Scripture."
This is the basic sentiment of many Christian free thinkers against largely accepted doctrines by larger religious institutions.
Thanks! I definitely would consider myself and Jonathan as Freethinkers.
Great interview! Smart men.
Really loved this one.
Thanks. I really enjoy conversing with Jonathan.
Around minute 51:00 there's interesting point made about how "types" is not a biblical word. The only thing I can add here is that 1 Peter 3:21 when it refers to baptism being an "antitype" which saves us when contrasted to how Noah saved from the sin of the world through the flood. It would be implied that the Flood was a type in order for baptism to be the antitype. This opens up the door for reading types of the Old Testament into anti-types of the New Testament.
Interesting observation!
"antitype" does not appear in the KJV but post-1830 translations and commentaries, such as Young's Literal Translation (1862), the New KJV (1975), the Literal Standard Version (2020), Ellicott's commentary (1897). etc.
Hello Steven thanks so much for your work with this channel! I'm lds and I'm researching church history and your non biased very relaxed interviewing style is so helpful. You actually let your guest talk! I was really fascinated by your interview with Don Bradley as well and have a lot of questions I would want to ask him, do you know where he works/how I could contact him?
Don is a very difficult person to get a hold of! Send me an email at mormonbookreviews@gmail.com I can try get you connected.
So it’s funny Neville touts that Edwards’ books are being sold in the vicinity of Palmyra where Smith lived, but would he acknowledge The Late War and View of the Hebrews also being available to Joseph?
That is a good point. That is something that can be another "multiple working hypothesis". I'll be releasing an interview with Dan Vogel next week. Please like and subscribe, if you haven't already.
@@MormonBookReviews done
Thanks! I look forward to hearing more feedback from you.
Interesting, don't agree with everything said but part of it makes a lot of sense. Hope I can get time to read the book.
Would Edwards have sanctioned the beheading of a drunk, defenseless man?
God bless Jonathan Neville and his heartlander work!
Thanks for the feedback!
You just as well bless your Donkey!
Comurah is an Island near Madagascar and its capital city is Moroni!
I notice you have on your bookshelf Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon.
Yes I do
👍 although its funny you referred to Brigham Young our second prophet and leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints as "Bring'em" I'm not offended because I'm not a child, but there are definitely people out there that might take offense to that lol just a word of caution. Although, freedom of speech so 👌 I have just recently found your channel through Rick Bennet and I enjoy what I've seen so far.
Thanks!
I think I like this stuff just got here and started video do you have an email??
mormonbookreviews@gmail.com
If Joseph Smith did truly possess a set of Gold Dipped Copper Plates, that were divinely given to his charge--then we will clearly need something more than his seer stone, if we wish to do a proper translation.
I have found in my travels, in Latin America, these three BoM names. Rabanah; Maroni; and, Corianton. There was a time, that I believed that the Hill Cumorah, was in Nicaragua. There is a city there, of the name Masaya.
I also found a town there with the name Rama.I no longer subscribe to the Central America theory--even though, I did find absolute proof, that Asian elephants, had once existed there. A bull, a cow, and a calf; tusks removed--and some kind of platform, on each of the adults backs--traveling in a southward direction. There were many other things, etched/incised on the cave wall, with a sharp instrument of some kind.
I did not appreciate Dr. Paul R Cheesman's skepticism/cynicism--consequently, I refrained from sharing with him, the exact location.
When John Brewer took me to his Mummy Cave, back in the Nineties--when we got to a certain point, he paused to tell me:"This is as far, as the Guardians Of The Cave, would permit me to take Cheesman. So, I told him that we could proceed no further. Paul was very angry, disappointed, and upset--but he turned back with me".
I find it ironic, if not poignant, that The Guardians gave me ( David Joseph LeBaron ) a pass--whereas, righteous Paul Cheesman, was simply turned away.
It was only on our return, that I noticed that John was quite jubilant. He stated: "I'm getting old, and for years, I have been praying to God, that he would send me an honest man, of His choosing, to whom, I could relinquish the charge of The Cave Of Ancient Records. And, when you apprised me that you were coming down from Washington, I told God, that I was going to take you to the Repository--and, that if He did not approve, to send His Messenger, to stop me, just as he had done, with Paul R Cheesman".
John instructed me exactly how to gain access--albeit, we did not go inside. And, before starting back to my truck, John shared with me this: "Now, I have something more to tell you: "In this Cave, there is something of great historical significance. But, I cannot tell you what it is. When you choose to go in, you will see it for yourself".
I immediately asked John if it was the Ark Of The Covenant. To which he replied: "I told you, I cannot tell you!"
There are a lot of Ancient Records, in that Cave Of Treasures--perhaps going all the way back to Enoch. Who knows for certain--Perhaps Moroni's Joseph Smith set of Gold Dipped Copper plates, are reposing there--just waiting for Joseph Smith's True Heir, to do an actual translation--as opposed to channeling their contents, with a Seer Stone. Why not? After all, the True Hill Cumorah, according to Brigham Young, and Heber C Kimball, is what is called Mt. Nebo, near Nephi, Utah.
P.S. I believe, that Ron Wyatt, found the Ark Of The Covenant. And, he also found the True Mount Sinai--as well as the Red Sea Crossing, in the Gulf Of Aqaba.
You've been in Brewers Cave? We should talk.
@@MormonBookReviews John Brewer left the Cave to me....
@@MormonBookReviews I tried to send you my gmail earlier today. Didn't seem to work....perhaps TH-cam does not permit it...
Here is my email mormonbookreviews@gmail.com
That is by far the most incredible comment I've ever come across. You may not see this, but if you're telling the truth, I very much hope you are the lucky person to find that successor and are able to deliver those treasures and relics to someone who will do right by them.
Satan can appear as anything and say any take heed
The Fabrication, would be far more accurate, than "Restoration"!!!
So I did watch the whole thing.
Neville did mention the "Late War" textbook. If you place it side by side with the Alma war chapters of the Book of Mormon's it's like mirror images save for names being changed.
Is this how God prepares His Prophets? Is this your radical thinking, Neville? God telling his Prophets to plagiarize text and pass it off as scripture?