I had a chance to meet Tom Hornbein before he passed, and what he told me about this climb was truly inspiring, "Life ain't easy, and sometimes you're in a position where you just gotta do something, my advise to you is, don't think too hard about it and just get out there and do"
1963, years before the Chinese . . . . Very informative and very evocative narration about two climbers who wouldn’t stop and who adapted step by step all the way to the top.
Regarding the wool mesh layer, they are considered very effective at keeping the body warm by allowing sweat to not be trapped. Long distance runners in cold climates use them as well as hunters and people who get exposed to cold for long periods of time. The Norwegian brand Brynje makes great quality ones.
Thanks for pointing out this climb/book! I bought and read it eagerly looking for... missing links. I figured that the approach to the climb (even though it was a different route) would be very similar in many ways to Mallory and Irvine's. Meaning climbing styles, sherpa support, O2 usage, etc. The most compelling information for me though would be the thoughts of the climbers and what pushed them on in their obsession to reach the top. After reading the book, I felt like the evidence was incredibly compelling and supportive of a summit by Mallory and Irvine AND it increased my doubts about the 1960 Chinese claimed success. Why do other people question so many things that were believed they were doing in 1924 would not have been done/tried, while on a successful expedition in 1963 they were using similar approaches to problems. Specifically the zig zag, belaying with rope, O2 caching, footwear choices, removing outer gloves to climb a section with bare fingers to name a few. The book and their success pointed out that the drive to accomplish the summit was all consuming to Hornbein. He did not concern himself with thoughts that he might die, he was at peace with what happened. Reading about the scramble that took much effort, they removed their gloves and successfully made it over the obstacle. He then noted, there was no way back, they had no escape route!? Without knowing what lay ahead, they continued on. After it got dark and they huddled together because it was impossible to go further with any real hope of getting down the mountain. This caused me to double check Wikipedia for the time that the Chinese allegedly summited - 4:20am. The Chinese, according to Wikipedia, having left camp at 9am on the 24th of May arrived at the second step at noon, according to your prior assessments by you of other climbers, this seems reasonable enough. This is assuming high camp at roughly similar locale as British and modern day camps, although my memory feels like their high camp was much higher? They made it over the second step at 5pm, and alleged to have run out of O2 at 8800m (measurement taken in the dark). Implying they finished the last 48m of climbing without O2. They would have climbed for 17 hours at this point to get to the top. This implies that the O2 bottles they carried lasted in the area of 14-15 hours (with no caching system as they were only going up). They climbers are then said to reach 8500m (possibly high camp?) by 9pm on the 25th.36 hours after they left - presumably also in the dark with no lights. They don't move to 6400m until May 30th. That is 36 hours of climbing to make it to the summit and back to camp. The human cost? Qu Xinhua's 10 toes and right index finger. This seems pretty light, considering what the group was alleged to have accomplished. Hornbein stated, that at 4am, first signs of dawn were upon them. It was light by 5am if I remember the detail correctly. So a summit at 4:25am, then stand there for 15 minutes (incredibly quick for a summit turnaround, especially with setting out a statue of Mao). The time is now 4:40am, and getting lighter by the minute. As a person that has just climbed Everest, it would be reasonable for the exhausted climbers to take in the moment. Snap a poorly lit picture, then turn around and head down. No picture exists, with the problem being the lack of light. The evidence from the Chinese is looking more and more like Yak dung. On the other hand, Odell's sighting at 11am, "going strongly..." coupled with Hornbein's thoughts on his own climb leave one question for me; if it was so dark, and a bivouac was a known idea, why risk down climbing in the pitch dark? Not say that altitude sickness or shear exhaustion could not have been in play, no one will be able to answer this one with anything more than speculation... Thanks again for the great research!
Truly a great climb on a beautiful line. An anecdote: I was just in base camp on the Rongbuk glacier and met Troillet and Loretan piror to their rapid ascent, sans oxygen up the Hornbein. More striking was their glissade descent of couloir. Forty plus hours round trip. It was unfathomable to see them moving at night by their headlamps on an 8000m peak as though in the Massif du Mt Blanc. When they got down they did not seem overly stretched. Just another day on the hill.
In this video about the 1963 ascent, you can see the soles of the boots in this frame: th-cam.com/video/dGQuaZH-Qec/w-d-xo.html. It appears there are metal cleats that were attached to the bottom center of the boot, as the color does not match with the surrounding rubber and one of the cleats is missing. These would have been metal screws or some other type of cleat that the climbers attached to the boots on their own. The boots were not sold with metal cleats, and these would have been put on by the climbers. The picture is not so clear that it can be said with certainty they are metal cleats -- the rubber could have just be a lighter color for some reason.
Great job Michael. I am looking forward to hearing about the other great climbs of Everest, such as the complete Northeast Ridge route by Boardman and Tasker. Thanks for information.
Still my favorite Everest route/climb, and glad Hornbein had a long and fulfilling life. I know Ueli Steck was planning to climb the Horbein Couloir. And I remember something about 2 French climbers doing a quick Alpine-style ascent and then glissading down all in one day maybe 25 years ago. Has anybody else climbed the Hornbein Couloir recently? It would be great to see some footage of climbing up that narrow corridor of snow/ice/rock.
They were swiss Erhard Loretan and Jean Trolliet that did it. Pretty awesome climb without supp O2 and in post monsoon snow. Erhard Loretan said he didnt inform on the crux of the route prior, so they were pretty effed up when they reached it with no gear. From what i remember and interprete his book they then took an exit to the right(!), which should be the little col forming a Y in the upper half. This spring season the original route from camp2 has been tried by Kilian Jornet, but he bailed after a small avalanche hit him inside the colouir.
@@rolandofurioso5498 Did Loretan and Trolliet summit Everest that day, then slide back down the Hornbein Couloir? That rock section above the Hornbein Couloir looks tricky for both ascent and descent.
darn, didn't know Hornbein passed away. I've always wanted to get him to draw on a map with a pen the route as he remembered it. part of the beauty of this route in 1963 was like the British in the 1920s that they were climbing into the unknown. 11:20 regarding the traverse decision, in The West Ridge, Hornbein mentioned that Unsoeld was OK with putting their crampons on in the tent since he hoped they weren't coming back.
While it was always a possibility they would traverse over, there is an extended radio call from 27,900 ft in which the decision is actually made, and the stated reason on the radio was that it would not be possible to descend safely via the route they climbed.
@@michaeltracy2356 I take the "it's up and over for us today" statement from Unsoeld that he knew they were committed to the traverse. Summiting, meeting the 2nd team from the South Col, and then returning down the couloir wouldn't have made any climbing sense (did they even have any support waiting for them on the Chinese side??). Anyhoo, I love Hornbein's note at this juncture: "We sat at the base of a big, wide-open amphitheatre. It looked like summits all over the place.” while he was standing where no-one had stood before. The film shot of Macartney-Snape motoring up the north face in '84 gives a good picture of how surprisingly hikeable the final pyramid is once you get that high.
@@michaeltracy2356 searching Hornbein for 'traverse' I found the support that they weren't 'committed' to a traverse prior to summit day: “If there is no support [waiting at the South Col], if at all possible, we would prefer to go down the way we came up, but I don't know that we can really answer this until we see how things work out.”
Hi Michael, thanks for this great memorial to Tom and Willi. Their climb was a great inspiration to me as I began climbing in 1963 in Wyoming and Colorado. I thought of them often in those days as I passed the Hornbein family cabin in the shadow of Long's Peak on my way to some day hike or short rock climb in the vicinity. I had a set of the fishnet underwear but never got to test them in a cold mountaineering situation. While I heartily agree with your idea of the effectiveness of classic mountaineering materials and equipment, I wonder if their mention may have been more of a nod to one of their sponsor/suppliers rather than a true endorsement of their effectiveness?
Very interesting. There aren't any frontiers to conquer like this anymore. (Not that I would personally want to do anything that would cause my fingers to be amputated...)
sadly there are no pictures of the colouir and upper route besides the tent place of Hornbeins book. Kilian Jornet abondoned his attempt this year and there is a video of him on the west ridge above the shoulder, maybe he will release more
I am surprised that as late as 1963 nailed boots were being used. Surely vibram soles were universal by then. What is your source for claim nails were used?
Very unusual not to take an established route for his first 8000 metre climb. As soon as I heard their vertical ascent rate I knew they were running late. Do you know what elevation they stayed the night at?
Having just watched nat geo 1965 Orson Welles narration - seems one version supported the idea that descending SE Ridge was planned before - another that since they couldnt descend the ascent route decided to take SE Ridge last minute. Then why were members waiting for Hornbein and Unsoeld on SE Ridge. Forgive my 70 year old memory of whose version was what.
I think it unlikely they were using hobnailed boots, but rather classic vibram soles which are much better on rock and readily available back then on insulated boots such as the Lowa Triplex. Hobnails would have torn up the insides of their overboots. I came to the climbing scene around Seattle in the late 60's and I never saw any hobnailed boots either in use or available from any of the equipment suppliers. Fishnet underwear as a first layer was popular then and was good stuff. It would wick up perspiration so that the cold and wet would contact a much smaller percentage of the skin than say a standard cotton tee shirt, while the airspace had an insulating effect. I wore some with comfort and satisfaction to the summit of Denali in 73.
Thanks Mike. Your remarks were actually very useful and so unlike much commentary. My dad did a lot of hard hiking in N.Z's most challenging mountains in Fiordland in the 50s. His unlined leather boots had a ton of clinkers, hobnails and Tricounis, and they were very heavy and horrible. That was customary for that period. I tramped in them once, and that was enough.
If they were just rubber soles, they perform very poorly on Everest. Even modern rubber is very difficult to climb on if there is even the slightest bit of ice. Hobnail boots were the norm for early climbing, and nothing about Mallory and Irvine's boots was not used routinely in climbing in the Alps. While it is possible the cleats were made of rubber rather than metal, it would be better to leave the crampons on. When faced with that choice myself, I left the crampons on -- obviously not on that particular obstacle. If I had hobnails on my boots, I would have taken the crampons off for certain sections of rock. But the rubber is worthless. Also, in this photo of WW2 era boots like cleats, I do not think they would be unworkable. Seems they are a more logical boot than a pure rubber sole and seems to be the type of sole he is referring to: www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ess-ice-glacier-mountain-climbing-2052861897
Yes, even the modern "moon boots" on Everest are heavy and bulky. Mallory's lighter boots are much better suited to actual climbing. You just have to keep moving to stay warm.
@@michaeltracy2356 Fine, show me a link to a contemporary supplier of nailed climbing boots. For the same reasons they are not of much interest today they were pretty much supplanted by the early 60's.
Not here to do your research for you. They are not of much interest to you. However, having climbed on Everest, if I do go back, I will make my own "hobnail" boots. Because they are better and easier to climb on from my personal experience. While the modern overboots do not cover the bottoms, nothing would stop Hornbein from simply putting a piece of leather in the boot to stop the tearing up you are so concerned with. But, I see you missed the entire point of the video. Numerous people show how things are "impossible." Like it is "impossible" to climb Everest without modern down clothing. And then someone goes out and does it. Just a little ingenuity would easily show how to solve the "tearing" problem. You also might want to google "YakTrax" before you go an a prolonged rant about the lack of modern hobnails. And you can purchase modern "hobnails" that you add to the boots yourself. As they periodically come off, you need to keep replacing them. You would know this you did just a little bit of your own research. They don't sell a boot with the nails. You buy the boot and then buy nails that are specifically made for climbing on mixed terrain. Please, do your own research. No high altitude boot maker would put them on because most high altitude climbing is on snow/ice and you wear crampons the whole time. Why make a mixed route boot that just adds extra weight for 90% of the people using it? Or sell to 100% of the market and the mixed climbers buy their own nails and put them on. You can then customize why type of cleat you use, how heavy, how much it wears, etc. Again, these are things that are obvious to people who honestly look into it but that are "impossible" for the casual internet suffer that wants someone to "show me your source."
were the chinese to "produce the 1960 summit rocks" what would stop them from just taking any old summit rocks and claiming they were from 1960? there would be no way to verify the year they were collected, right? only that they did indeed come from the summit. in which case, wonder why they haven't tried that already....
Because we have photos of the rocks allegedly collected in 1960, including a microscope photo of one of the rocks. Thus, that microscope photo could be matched up with the rock they produce to verify it is the exact same rock they were claiming to have been collected on the summit. Further analysis could be performed to determine it it was indeed from the actual summit. So, there is an exact way to determine if the rock is the same one as in 1960 and there is a way to determine if that rock is from the actual summit. I hope that answers your question as to why they haven't tried it already.
They will likely come up with something. Send them to a "western" lab that doesn't say how they analyzed them nor publish anything other than the "result." They just need to fool most of the people and label the rest of us as crack-pots.
I guess the questions that occur to me are these--1). Isn't this part of the Tibet/Chinese side of the mountain? If so; 2). Were the Chinese aware of this attempt? I can't imagine them sanctioning an American climb on Chinese territory in 1963. At the same time, in 1963 I can't imagine the risk of detection by the Chinese would have been very great. Boy, the year of my birth sure was busy!
As of this year, North side still closed to foreign climbers -- though China seems to send an expedition every year. The Hornbein route is not possible because it requires permission from China to enter and exit their country and unless you have a lot of Mao Social Credit Points, it is unlikely you will be granted permission. There was an expedition in 2012 to do this, so perhaps they had enough Mao Points. They didn't get too far up the mountain and looks like they never crossed into China. It is not clear if this is because of the stated reason that the climb was taking too long or the unstated reason that the Chinese found out what they were doing and put an end to it. In 1963, China has little influence in Nepal. Today, nothing happens on the Nepal side without China knowing about it and approving it.
@michaeltracy2356 I heard that China has reopened this year but due to them doing it at the last minute teams decided not to buy any permits! I believe I heard it on Alan Arnetts channel!
"Americans on Everest" by James Ramsey Ullman has a detailed equipment list as a set of appendixes. They did not have hobnailed boots. their boots had vibram soles.
You screw the bolts into the Vibram soles -- exactly like it shows in the video. It is possible they had purely vibrams soles, but the way he phrased it sounded more like he had cleats on them rather than that the rubber was merely in a pattern. I say this because when I was climbing on Everest, the vibram soles were worthless. I would not take my crampons off to use the pure rubber soles. However, if I go back, I will attack cleated spikes to the soles, as those would be very useful. You can buy these online and it is not uncommon. How did you find vibram soles while you were climbing on Everest? They work ok for you? I did try it. Couldn't walk more than about 10 feet without loosing grip. But, please let me know your experience.
@@michaeltracy2356 There are photos of the boots in the book along with detailed descriptions. Ullman was a member of the expedition; an eyewitness. The photo you show are modern fishing boots, not mountaineering boots. Also the hobnailed boots in the second photo would not be suitable for high altitude mountaineering. They are workboots, not climbing boots.
I know you are trying to help, but vague statement are not helpful. Please confirm you understand what I am talking about. You take a pair of regular high altitude mountain boots. You turn them over and you screw some cleats into the the regular normal mountain boots. The boots will still look like regular normal mountain boots unless you look at the bottoms. Thus, a photo of these regular normal mountain boots that does not show the outer sole would not tell you whether these boots were modified for use on Everest by screwing cleats into the bottom. Please state explicitly that you saw a photo of the boots used by Hornbein and it shows the bottoms of the boots and you can see the entire bottom sole and you can verify that there is nothing attached to that bottom. Or state that there is a photo of the boots but you can't see the bottom sole. Try to stick to one of those two things and it will be useful.
I had a chance to meet Tom Hornbein before he passed, and what he told me about this climb was truly inspiring, "Life ain't easy, and sometimes you're in a position where you just gotta do something, my advise to you is, don't think too hard about it and just get out there and do"
May as well have said "Just do it, kid"
It's been a while Mr Tracy, welcome back
Really appreciate Tracey’s dedication and honesty sorting what is known from what is not.
The West Ridge is such a classic of mountaineering literature. I never noticed how much it supports your theories! Thanks for this excellent analysis.
1963, years before the Chinese . . .
.
Very informative and very evocative narration about two climbers who wouldn’t stop and who adapted step by step all the way to the top.
Regarding the wool mesh layer, they are considered very effective at keeping the body warm by allowing sweat to not be trapped. Long distance runners in cold climates use them as well as hunters and people who get exposed to cold for long periods of time. The Norwegian brand Brynje makes great quality ones.
Thanks for pointing out this climb/book! I bought and read it eagerly looking for... missing links. I figured that the approach to the climb (even though it was a different route) would be very similar in many ways to Mallory and Irvine's. Meaning climbing styles, sherpa support, O2 usage, etc. The most compelling information for me though would be the thoughts of the climbers and what pushed them on in their obsession to reach the top.
After reading the book, I felt like the evidence was incredibly compelling and supportive of a summit by Mallory and Irvine AND it increased my doubts about the 1960 Chinese claimed success.
Why do other people question so many things that were believed they were doing in 1924 would not have been done/tried, while on a successful expedition in 1963 they were using similar approaches to problems. Specifically the zig zag, belaying with rope, O2 caching, footwear choices, removing outer gloves to climb a section with bare fingers to name a few. The book and their success pointed out that the drive to accomplish the summit was all consuming to Hornbein. He did not concern himself with thoughts that he might die, he was at peace with what happened. Reading about the scramble that took much effort, they removed their gloves and successfully made it over the obstacle. He then noted, there was no way back, they had no escape route!? Without knowing what lay ahead, they continued on. After it got dark and they huddled together because it was impossible to go further with any real hope of getting down the mountain. This caused me to double check Wikipedia for the time that the Chinese allegedly summited - 4:20am.
The Chinese, according to Wikipedia, having left camp at 9am on the 24th of May arrived at the second step at noon, according to your prior assessments by you of other climbers, this seems reasonable enough. This is assuming high camp at roughly similar locale as British and modern day camps, although my memory feels like their high camp was much higher? They made it over the second step at 5pm, and alleged to have run out of O2 at 8800m (measurement taken in the dark). Implying they finished the last 48m of climbing without O2. They would have climbed for 17 hours at this point to get to the top. This implies that the O2 bottles they carried lasted in the area of 14-15 hours (with no caching system as they were only going up). They climbers are then said to reach 8500m (possibly high camp?) by 9pm on the 25th.36 hours after they left - presumably also in the dark with no lights. They don't move to 6400m until May 30th.
That is 36 hours of climbing to make it to the summit and back to camp. The human cost? Qu Xinhua's 10 toes and right index finger. This seems pretty light, considering what the group was alleged to have accomplished.
Hornbein stated, that at 4am, first signs of dawn were upon them. It was light by 5am if I remember the detail correctly. So a summit at 4:25am, then stand there for 15 minutes (incredibly quick for a summit turnaround, especially with setting out a statue of Mao). The time is now 4:40am, and getting lighter by the minute. As a person that has just climbed Everest, it would be reasonable for the exhausted climbers to take in the moment. Snap a poorly lit picture, then turn around and head down. No picture exists, with the problem being the lack of light.
The evidence from the Chinese is looking more and more like Yak dung. On the other hand, Odell's sighting at 11am, "going strongly..." coupled with Hornbein's thoughts on his own climb leave one question for me; if it was so dark, and a bivouac was a known idea, why risk down climbing in the pitch dark? Not say that altitude sickness or shear exhaustion could not have been in play, no one will be able to answer this one with anything more than speculation...
Thanks again for the great research!
Truly a great climb on a beautiful line. An anecdote: I was just in base camp on the Rongbuk glacier and met Troillet and Loretan piror to their rapid ascent, sans oxygen up the Hornbein. More striking was their glissade descent of couloir. Forty plus hours round trip. It was unfathomable to see them moving at night by their headlamps on an 8000m peak as though in the Massif du Mt Blanc. When they got down they did not seem overly stretched. Just another day on the hill.
In this video about the 1963 ascent, you can see the soles of the boots in this frame: th-cam.com/video/dGQuaZH-Qec/w-d-xo.html. It appears there are metal cleats that were attached to the bottom center of the boot, as the color does not match with the surrounding rubber and one of the cleats is missing. These would have been metal screws or some other type of cleat that the climbers attached to the boots on their own. The boots were not sold with metal cleats, and these would have been put on by the climbers. The picture is not so clear that it can be said with certainty they are metal cleats -- the rubber could have just be a lighter color for some reason.
Thank you. Have been waiting for your thoughful insight and updates.
Great job Michael. I am looking forward to hearing about the other great climbs of Everest, such as the complete Northeast Ridge route by Boardman and Tasker. Thanks for information.
Hey, Michael, welcome back and thank you. Willy was a prince
Very informative and totally immersive, great job Mr Tracy! 😎
Still my favorite Everest route/climb, and glad Hornbein had a long and fulfilling life. I know Ueli Steck was planning to climb the Horbein Couloir. And I remember something about 2 French climbers doing a quick Alpine-style ascent and then glissading down all in one day maybe 25 years ago. Has anybody else climbed the Hornbein Couloir recently? It would be great to see some footage of climbing up that narrow corridor of snow/ice/rock.
They were swiss Erhard Loretan and Jean Trolliet that did it. Pretty awesome climb without supp O2 and in post monsoon snow.
Erhard Loretan said he didnt inform on the crux of the route prior, so they were pretty effed up when they reached it with no gear.
From what i remember and interprete his book they then took an exit to the right(!), which should be the little col forming a Y in the upper half.
This spring season the original route from camp2 has been tried by Kilian Jornet, but he bailed after a small avalanche hit him inside the colouir.
@@rolandofurioso5498 Thanks for the clarification. I hope to see some footage from Hornbein Couloir in next years.
@@rolandofurioso5498 Did Loretan and Trolliet summit Everest that day, then slide back down the Hornbein Couloir? That rock section above the Hornbein Couloir looks tricky for both ascent and descent.
Glad you're back Michael !
Excellent presentation. Thank you.
Hornbein and Unsoeld were two tough hombres. Great video
darn, didn't know Hornbein passed away. I've always wanted to get him to draw on a map with a pen the route as he remembered it.
part of the beauty of this route in 1963 was like the British in the 1920s that they were climbing into the unknown.
11:20 regarding the traverse decision, in The West Ridge, Hornbein mentioned that Unsoeld was OK with putting their crampons on in the tent since he hoped they weren't coming back.
While it was always a possibility they would traverse over, there is an extended radio call from 27,900 ft in which the decision is actually made, and the stated reason on the radio was that it would not be possible to descend safely via the route they climbed.
@@michaeltracy2356 I take the "it's up and over for us today" statement from Unsoeld that he knew they were committed to the traverse. Summiting, meeting the 2nd team from the South Col, and then returning down the couloir wouldn't have made any climbing sense (did they even have any support waiting for them on the Chinese side??). Anyhoo, I love Hornbein's note at this juncture:
"We sat at the base of a big, wide-open amphitheatre. It looked like summits all over the place.”
while he was standing where no-one had stood before.
The film shot of Macartney-Snape motoring up the north face in '84 gives a good picture of how surprisingly hikeable the final pyramid is once you get that high.
@@michaeltracy2356 searching Hornbein for 'traverse' I found the support that they weren't 'committed' to a traverse prior to summit day:
“If there is no support [waiting at the South Col], if at all possible, we would prefer to go down the way we came up, but I don't know that we can really answer this until we see how things work out.”
Used oxygen. Doesn't count as a great climb.
Great to see a new upload!
I grew up in Canada in rhe late 50's and definitely wore the Duofold long johns, never thought I'd be concerned about its composition..😅
Yes! This presents a thoroughly damning case against the presuppositions of the 2nd Step theory.
Hi Michael, thanks for this great memorial to Tom and Willi. Their climb was a great inspiration to me as I began climbing in 1963 in Wyoming and Colorado. I thought of them often in those days as I passed the Hornbein family cabin in the shadow of Long's Peak on my way to some day hike or short rock climb in the vicinity. I had a set of the fishnet underwear but never got to test them in a cold mountaineering situation. While I heartily agree with your idea of the effectiveness of classic mountaineering materials and equipment, I wonder if their mention may have been more of a nod to one of their sponsor/suppliers rather than a true endorsement of their effectiveness?
Babe wake up! New Everest lore just dropped!
Please more of these!!
Great video, Michael!!
Very interesting. There aren't any frontiers to conquer like this anymore. (Not that I would personally want to do anything that would cause my fingers to be amputated...)
How lucky (fortunate) that no rockfall and icefall befell the climbing in the Coulior, as would be feared.
Yes, the other team members called it Hornbein's Avalanche Trap. Which time as proven to be true.
sadly there are no pictures of the colouir and upper route besides the tent place of Hornbeins book.
Kilian Jornet abondoned his attempt this year and there is a video of him on the west ridge above the shoulder, maybe he will release more
1:35 You forgot Jerzy Kukucka
I am surprised that as late as 1963
nailed boots were being used. Surely vibram soles were universal by then. What is your source for claim nails were used?
it helps if you actually watch the video where I say exactly what the source is.
Very unusual not to take an established route for his first 8000 metre climb. As soon as I heard their vertical ascent rate I knew they were running late. Do you know what elevation they stayed the night at?
If only they remembered to bring Mao's book.
Having just watched nat geo 1965 Orson Welles narration - seems one version supported the idea that descending SE Ridge was planned before - another that since they couldnt descend the ascent route decided to take SE Ridge last minute. Then why were members waiting for Hornbein and Unsoeld on SE Ridge. Forgive my 70 year old memory of whose version was what.
I think it unlikely they were using hobnailed boots, but rather classic vibram soles which are much better on rock and readily available back then on insulated boots such as the Lowa Triplex. Hobnails would have torn up the insides of their overboots. I came to the climbing scene around Seattle in the late 60's and I never saw any hobnailed boots either in use or available from any of the equipment suppliers. Fishnet underwear as a first layer was popular then and was good stuff. It would wick up perspiration so that the cold and wet would contact a much smaller percentage of the skin than say a standard cotton tee shirt, while the airspace had an insulating effect. I wore some with comfort and satisfaction to the summit of Denali in 73.
Thanks Mike. Your remarks were actually very useful and so unlike much commentary. My dad did a lot of hard hiking in N.Z's most challenging mountains in Fiordland in the 50s. His unlined leather boots had a ton of clinkers, hobnails and Tricounis, and they were very heavy and horrible. That was customary for that period. I tramped in them once, and that was enough.
If they were just rubber soles, they perform very poorly on Everest. Even modern rubber is very difficult to climb on if there is even the slightest bit of ice. Hobnail boots were the norm for early climbing, and nothing about Mallory and Irvine's boots was not used routinely in climbing in the Alps. While it is possible the cleats were made of rubber rather than metal, it would be better to leave the crampons on. When faced with that choice myself, I left the crampons on -- obviously not on that particular obstacle. If I had hobnails on my boots, I would have taken the crampons off for certain sections of rock. But the rubber is worthless. Also, in this photo of WW2 era boots like cleats, I do not think they would be unworkable. Seems they are a more logical boot than a pure rubber sole and seems to be the type of sole he is referring to:
www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ess-ice-glacier-mountain-climbing-2052861897
Yes, even the modern "moon boots" on Everest are heavy and bulky. Mallory's lighter boots are much better suited to actual climbing. You just have to keep moving to stay warm.
@@michaeltracy2356 Fine, show me a link to a contemporary supplier of nailed climbing boots. For the same reasons they are not of much interest today they were pretty much supplanted by the early 60's.
Not here to do your research for you. They are not of much interest to you. However, having climbed on Everest, if I do go back, I will make my own "hobnail" boots. Because they are better and easier to climb on from my personal experience.
While the modern overboots do not cover the bottoms, nothing would stop Hornbein from simply putting a piece of leather in the boot to stop the tearing up you are so concerned with.
But, I see you missed the entire point of the video. Numerous people show how things are "impossible." Like it is "impossible" to climb Everest without modern down clothing. And then someone goes out and does it. Just a little ingenuity would easily show how to solve the "tearing" problem. You also might want to google "YakTrax" before you go an a prolonged rant about the lack of modern hobnails. And you can purchase modern "hobnails" that you add to the boots yourself. As they periodically come off, you need to keep replacing them. You would know this you did just a little bit of your own research. They don't sell a boot with the nails. You buy the boot and then buy nails that are specifically made for climbing on mixed terrain. Please, do your own research.
No high altitude boot maker would put them on because most high altitude climbing is on snow/ice and you wear crampons the whole time. Why make a mixed route boot that just adds extra weight for 90% of the people using it? Or sell to 100% of the market and the mixed climbers buy their own nails and put them on. You can then customize why type of cleat you use, how heavy, how much it wears, etc. Again, these are things that are obvious to people who honestly look into it but that are "impossible" for the casual internet suffer that wants someone to "show me your source."
TY 🙏
Quite interesting that all but one of the mountains in the drawing appear to be sleeping.
Hi Michael, what was the "moon" for Mallory and Irvine??
See the Watch video.
were the chinese to "produce the 1960 summit rocks" what would stop them from just taking any old summit rocks and claiming they were from 1960? there would be no way to verify the year they were collected, right? only that they did indeed come from the summit. in which case, wonder why they haven't tried that already....
Because we have photos of the rocks allegedly collected in 1960, including a microscope photo of one of the rocks. Thus, that microscope photo could be matched up with the rock they produce to verify it is the exact same rock they were claiming to have been collected on the summit. Further analysis could be performed to determine it it was indeed from the actual summit. So, there is an exact way to determine if the rock is the same one as in 1960 and there is a way to determine if that rock is from the actual summit. I hope that answers your question as to why they haven't tried it already.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thank you! Yes that makes sense and I am glad it wouldn't be so easy for them to falsify.
They will likely come up with something. Send them to a "western" lab that doesn't say how they analyzed them nor publish anything other than the "result." They just need to fool most of the people and label the rest of us as crack-pots.
They lack the will to do that as it would demonstrate their fraud.
I guess the questions that occur to me are these--1). Isn't this part of the Tibet/Chinese side of the mountain? If so; 2). Were the Chinese aware of this attempt? I can't imagine them sanctioning an American climb on Chinese territory in 1963. At the same time, in 1963 I can't imagine the risk of detection by the Chinese would have been very great. Boy, the year of my birth sure was busy!
Has China opened up the North side? Also, could any of this be possible today with the amount of people on the mountain?
As of this year, North side still closed to foreign climbers -- though China seems to send an expedition every year.
The Hornbein route is not possible because it requires permission from China to enter and exit their country and unless you have a lot of Mao Social Credit Points, it is unlikely you will be granted permission. There was an expedition in 2012 to do this, so perhaps they had enough Mao Points. They didn't get too far up the mountain and looks like they never crossed into China.
It is not clear if this is because of the stated reason that the climb was taking too long or the unstated reason that the Chinese found out what they were doing and put an end to it. In 1963, China has little influence in Nepal. Today, nothing happens on the Nepal side without China knowing about it and approving it.
@michaeltracy2356 I heard that China has reopened this year but due to them doing it at the last minute teams decided not to buy any permits! I believe I heard it on Alan Arnetts channel!
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Just badass
Could I have a new discord link the old ones are all expired
discord.gg/Pb9cwxw2
Ripping good yarn, as those gentlemen climbers might've said.
"Americans on Everest" by James Ramsey Ullman has a detailed equipment list as a set of appendixes. They did not have hobnailed boots. their boots had vibram soles.
You screw the bolts into the Vibram soles -- exactly like it shows in the video. It is possible they had purely vibrams soles, but the way he phrased it sounded more like he had cleats on them rather than that the rubber was merely in a pattern.
I say this because when I was climbing on Everest, the vibram soles were worthless. I would not take my crampons off to use the pure rubber soles. However, if I go back, I will attack cleated spikes to the soles, as those would be very useful. You can buy these online and it is not uncommon.
How did you find vibram soles while you were climbing on Everest? They work ok for you? I did try it. Couldn't walk more than about 10 feet without loosing grip. But, please let me know your experience.
@@michaeltracy2356 There are photos of the boots in the book along with detailed descriptions. Ullman was a member of the expedition; an eyewitness. The photo you show are modern fishing boots, not mountaineering boots. Also the hobnailed boots in the second photo would not be suitable for high altitude mountaineering. They are workboots, not climbing boots.
I know you are trying to help, but vague statement are not helpful. Please confirm you understand what I am talking about.
You take a pair of regular high altitude mountain boots. You turn them over and you screw some cleats into the the regular normal mountain boots. The boots will still look like regular normal mountain boots unless you look at the bottoms. Thus, a photo of these regular normal mountain boots that does not show the outer sole would not tell you whether these boots were modified for use on Everest by screwing cleats into the bottom.
Please state explicitly that you saw a photo of the boots used by Hornbein and it shows the bottoms of the boots and you can see the entire bottom sole and you can verify that there is nothing attached to that bottom.
Or state that there is a photo of the boots but you can't see the bottom sole.
Try to stick to one of those two things and it will be useful.
China, if you wouldn't mind terribly and in the words of Twisted Sister, "I WANNA ROCK!"
I have to think of some way to work this into a video!
@@michaeltracy2356👍
Hobnail boots?
watched the film of this in the early 70s , it was the b film to a walt disney film ,one that escapes me as i was about 9 when i watched it
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