Correction on Minute 53: The movie with the Submarine in DTS:X was of course not Mission Impossible. I meant Fast&Furios 8. Here is our Test Movie with demonstration the Effects and the Upmixer in Fast&Furios 8 th-cam.com/video/_U8SQFUhmtM/w-d-xo.html
Got all giggidy when I saw the notification. Love hearing just general conversation about these audio formats. I’m so weird, they don’t have medicine for that though. Will watch this later, thanks and please keep ‘em coming! Also, let our voices be heard that we made the investment for immersive sound and expect it to be utilized to the fullest!
Wow ,it's a nice Video 👍👌 First Time I'm seeing Mr.Patrick.I have an Auro3d 10.2 setup at my home using Marantz SR8012,which can do Atmos & DTS X 5.2.4 too. What's Mr.Patrick was saying is absolutely true.I use to tell to my Audio frds about some of this points , especially Auromatic upmixer.The front & rear heights create a vertical stereo image between Front & surround speakers ,so u can hear the immersive sound .The true thing is good content availabilities are limited.
absolutely everyone I talk to that has both Auro and Atmos prefer the Auro version and many prefer to upmix in Auromatic. it makes me regret not spending the extra for an Auro model. but I'm a budget shopper so the auro models are outside my budget
Honestly, I had Auro3D for a while, and after I moved to Yamaha, I never missed it. In fact, even when I still had an Auro AVR, I rather used Neural:X to Upmix since Auro doesn't work at all for 2 Channel content and for 5.1 content the Auro Upmixer is less precise than Neural:X
@@rolandrohde Auro3D has the big benefit that is does nothing with the 5.1./7.1 ground layer. It only adds extra upper channels. This way you maintain much better audio quality. No extra processing like for example the Dolby Atmos upmixer. The technology and research behind Auro3d is much much longer than Dolby and DTS. Playing Atmos on a channel based Auro 3d speaker layout works fine. The other way around doesnt work. I have customers who did choose for an Auro3d speaker layout and use a true hd and dts master core just for the Auro upmixer because of the better quality. Auro3D is the best immersive sound you can have IMO. but it's a fact that height channels also create more problems like reflections. I always mention that's its better to have a good ground layer instead of crapy immersive sound. First focus on a good placement on the ground level. Good placement and acoustic treatment. Then focus on immersive sound. I visited Wilfried in the Mol studio's in Belgium. Fantastic studio and a guy with passion and knowledge.
@@onlyvik To me it never sounded quite right...and my Speaker layout is perfectly inside the standards in a well treated room. My main gripe with Auro was though, that ot completely butchered 2 Channel content. So if I switched to linear TV I always had to deactivate Auro anyway. For Multichannel it was OK, but I often felt it blew up the LFE and swallowed details in the 2D layer...but that might have been my imagination...
You guys are great together-very entertaining and informative. Both of you could start a reality tv show traveling around observing home theater setups.It would be fantastic.
Thanks gene...for this video and your earlier stream on Dolby restrictions...I have marantz av7705 and had never used the auro 3d because I never got any auro 3d content.....but I was pleasantly surprised by the auro mixers, when I started using them for my daily regular contents and movies too....there is auro 2d mixer, which is for 5.1, which I use for all daily content including 2 channel content and there is auro 3d mixer, which is 5.1.4, which I use for movies. The great thing about auro 2d mixing is that, it sound great for 2 channel listening also including TH-cam and spotify, even with only the 2 fronts and sub playing (centre and surround switched off). I use the reflective Atmos speakers as I stay in rented apartment, but still auro 3d sounds better than Dolby and DTS upmixer for 5.1 content. It's not placebo as I can literally hear more details switching back and forth between the upmixers. Bass also feels deeper in auro mixing. I haven't tried auro with true Atmos or DTS X content yet, but plan to do this coming weekend. Thanks again gene...keep up the good work. Maybe you can also invite Patrick later for some tips on using auro 2d and 3d mixers, automatics settings.
Thanks for this video; great stuff. Please do additional videos on Auro-3D. Topics to Address 1) Difference in sound experience with 9.1 vs. 10.1 (I've read that the Auro-3D inventor prefers 9.1 over 10.1); what do you miss w/o the Voice of God; does the format compensate so you do not miss anything. 2) If you build your HT to Auro-3D specifications what do you hear when you watch something formatted in Atmos? 3) Are more companies supporting Auro-3D, and what's should we expect for 2021?
I thoroughly enjoyed this video and found it very interesting and revealing. Thank you Gene for introducing us to Patrick and Patrick, danke schoen, das war sehr interesant! Ich habe viel gelehrnt.. :-) I do think Gene asked some very interesting and valid questions that weren't entirely answered (how Trinnov handles the additional channels and how the AVR's handle the labeling issue), so let's do this again Patrick and Gene... we've got lots more learning and discovery ahead of us... :-)
Until they make another video together you can watch a video about Trinnov over at the grobi.tv channel... th-cam.com/video/Ln2okhgVYi8/w-d-xo.html It's even in english ( with some german translation ;) )
@@TheRealSchnitti Yeah, this was very interesting. I loved how Patrick sometimes forgot to speak German to his audience... not so easy doing a multi language presentation. Luckily I speak German so I enjoyed hearing all about the Grobi theater as well. Man, the sophistication of that Trinnov blows the mind!
@@BrendonHeld Dito, hatte mir nur gedacht, dass das mit der englischen Sprache bei dem normalen Audioholics Publikum ne Rolle spielen könnte 😉 Die Trinnov ist schon echt nen krasses Stück Technik ... nur leider sowas von unbezahlbar und damit jenseits von gut und böse 😅😆🙈
@@TheRealSchnitti Dass kannst du laut sagen mein Fruend! I'd literally have to sell all my internal organs to afford one of those bad boys... but they're the stuff of dreams from what I can see... :-)
I have no facts for this, but I think even if the Atmos has a 7 channel bed on to lower layer, the objects are still calculated for all configured speakers. The same goes for the cinema version. The bed is in 9.1, so they have space for 118 additional sound objects. So as they are placed everywhere in the Z direction, they are distributed on both layers.
Speaking of next generation sound that not so many know about, but I use two bass-shakers under the sofa to get immersive thunder, car or shaking effects it really enhances the sound level massively without a subwoofer (main speakers are in the near range of full spectrum 40-32000hz) and the bass-shakers with cutoff under 80hz but range around 10-80hz. you can feel the low sound and still hear it due to the sofa generating the sound. It's awesome the front mains I also use two height speakers for dts:x and atmos.
A great video would love if you did another video about the different height speaker layouts, what is the difference between front height or top height. Also, a video going on how to use the upmix like he is talking about instead of Dolby Atmos.
speaker layout wise, the recommended setup for Atmos, DTS:X and Auro 3D is more along the lines of Yamaha's Classic 11.1, minus the Surround back L/R! Fascinating discussion! Right on the money with Dolby "liquidating" the Dolby Atmos brand before they've really made in-roads with the brand/spec. Really the biggest difference maker for correcting these garbage dumbed-down BD atmos releases is Dolby themselves. The faster they water down the Atmos brand / experience, the more they open up themselves up to the next big thing (IMAX enhanced?)
On my way back from the gym I thought about what you said about wanting a bed layer only upmixer from Dolby or DTS since the surrounds were very immersive and to keep it “2D”. I remember what you said about turning the center channel off for surround music and I guess you could turn off the heights when you’re doing music only and apply the DSU. Annoying to go back and forth but at least everything will be mixed into the surrounds instead of the heights.
Patrick you’re so right on the money The atmoss on 90% of movies is pathetic I have an SR 8012 and I sett it up, even though the speakers are in the ceiling I set them as height speakers so I can switch it to euro 3D
So glad you guys made this video watched it when I came out but commenting again I spend over 2k on in ceiling speakers alone not counting install etc and nothing but maybe one movie and games sound above me this needs to be fixed
What an awesome discussion!! Patrick was really informative and great to listen to! Gene, I hope you revisit this topic soon with your findings. I'd also be curious to hear what Patrick has to say about the state of Stereoscopic in Germany/Europe as I am pretty much exclusively importing 3D from UK, DE, IT, FR and even JPN now. Now to flip our Theater SR8012 7.2.4 from Ceiling to Heights and see what this Auro3D hype is all about....
Well 3D is a mixed bag in europe. If you want the best audio, dolby atmos in german included, you mostly have to take the 2D or UHD route. I don't know why they never put the 3D Audio on the 3D disc. They even do strange things like putting the german and english Atmos track on the normal Bluray, but leaving the german out on the UHD one to fit 15 other european and asian langs in Dolby Digital 5.1 on it. You pay 20 bucks more for the discs, and have worse sound? And since all new UHD Tvs aren't equipped with 3D capability the sales are certainly not rising. But my local electronics market has the same size 3D section for years now, so the sales may not be that bad.
Patrick is really committed with Auro3D . Which is to me the best upmixer but it has some flaws sometimes virtualising the sound and you have to be very accurate with the placement of your speakers. And you have to have to the same speakers to get the best results. I use the Marantz AV8805 and the auromatic but I must say that in games Atmos sometimes truly shines. They should focus on the gaming industry as its now bigger than the cinema industry. BTW I tested IMAX and it is crap now. It boost the bass way to much. To me it’s like the beats studio from the past. A nice U shaped curve :)
Like Gene mentioned high ceilings are important for separation - 9-10 feet for heights and even brighter with VOG. Then it will shine, otherwise Dolby atmos. Mind that there are many movies with poor mixes. You cannot compare poor atmos mix with upmixer - upmixer will enhance based on data it’s got - native mix won’t. But on some AVRs you can enable Dolby processing for movies then you will engage enhancing and that can make night and day difference- in my case topping Auro3D
Just finished building my theater. Looks like I'll be taking it apart to rearrange my speakers for Auro 3d. And I thought I'd done my last drywall, sanding, and painting. If only this video had come out 2 months ago...
A good sound mix should blend sounds between multiple loudspeakers to virtualize location, like people do with phantom centers, that was the marketing with these immersive formats, you place a sound in 3d space and the processor will in real time spread that sound to the right speakers and at the right volumes to simulate the intended location without having to hard code for different physical layouts with locked channels. Unfortunately, today that doesnt happen in home, not sure if it's just a matter of processing power (probably, but that's a lame excuse) or what. Seems like most of the audio is in a locked bed, with very few objects for the system to play with, that's why most are not spread between the lower and upper speakers, could also be a disc data rate/storage space issue too, where there just isn't enough room to have the objects individualized enough to properly real time mix, if ti were the speaker layout really wouldn't matter that much becasue every sound should be able to be virtualzied in 3d space as marketed, you wouldn't have as many "black holes" of audio where no speaker existed . Since so much of the track is hard coded though, it won't spread to the upper speakers (top or side) unless specific sounds are intentially placed there which are few and far between. I think that is where the up mixers and algorithms are coming in to play, it is allowing the processor to do the very magic the format was supposed to deliver natively but isn't up to the task with current specifications of home hardware. Again with proper coding, the processor should be able to compensate that upmix to either top or ceiling heights equally well, but doesn't sound like they really put the time or effort in,. Realistically a speaker pointed at you from above shouldn't sound that diffrent if in ceiling vs wall mounted height as long as you get it properly time aligned and volume levaled. I guess the main factor would be how much it spreads vs how much it beam forms, there are benefits to having speakers further away from you and top speakers do achieve that easier than in ceilings given most people's homes. Honestly, the choice to go in ceiling or on wall will likely be determined for most people depending on the room (as to which is more ideal sonically) If you have a large long wide room, in ceilings will likely be better if placed say at every 3rd (skipping the middle if you have 4 in ceiling channels) . A small room especially with low ceilings likely will be better off with on wall heights.
I wish more people can enjoy and try auro3d. It is much better and you can hear the difference when you compare with atmos and dts neuro x. I am wondering when denon will come with a firmware so unblock the restriction from atmos. Also we need more films with auro please
@@Audioholics Denon is not shipping units with Denon restriction to upmix Dolby with auro3d. The restriction are only now in the neu 2019 machines for dts x upmixer.
@@Audioholics Hi it is so nice to see a reply from you. Big fan from your channel. My model is Denon avr x6400h. Looking to upgrade to 8500 13 speakers. Perhaps I am confused about restrictions but when you play films or games with Xbox one x you have the option to send the signal Atmos or Bistream. When you send it with atmos witch I don't do often, you can not change it to auro 3d or Dts. The option is gone and instead you have atmos music or cinema on the receiver options. I have to send everything Bistream if I want to hear on Dts or Auro. When I do that I am able to choose any format from all denon favours or colours including stereo all or just 2.1. With Bistream you have more options but when I choose atmos on my Xbox the options are gone. Totally agree with the German friend Auro is a different level I live in Europe so I am lucky enough to get some auro films and the difference is there. Unfortunately Atmos has become the new Boss. Overrated and every time lowing their own expectations in order to make more profit. Also calling speakers don't give you the same effect than speakers on the wall top. I can report that because I have ceilling and top wall speakers. I know I am crazy 😋 I had to try both so I can choose the best experience. Please keep your hard work guys and hopefully all this big companies one day will open their eyes and realize that not everything is about to make quick money but instead to create legacy and create new technology to overcome our boundaries. Greeting from UK.
@aferalva This is not an error. Xbox One and also Apple TV 4K are using a special kind of Dolby Atmos for Streaming. Normally Dolby Atmos on UHD Blu-ray has a 5.1/7.1 core coded in Dolby Digital TrueHD or Dolby Digital Plus. Additionally the Atmos hight Information is stored in the meta data. An upmixer, e.g. Auromatic or DTS: Neural X, needs the core data and the 5.1 / 7.1 channel bed in the core for calculating the height data. But the special Dolby Atmos version of Xbox and Apple TV is coming WITHOUT the core data! There is NO TrueHD core inside. And if no core is found, the upmixers are not available, because they have no data for calculating. They need the channel bed. Only solution: switching signal output from bitstream to PCM. Then we get 5.1/7.1-LPCM multichannel signals and voila, you can switch on the upmixers again! Easy going :-)
Gene made the perfect question about 8' ceilings and how it won't allow a proper Auro setup... and he didn't want to hear that. My Atmos in ceiling speakers are at 30 degrees which is within spec of both Atmos and Auro... but Auro requires the height channels to be at the same distance as the ear level speakers, which I can't do.
I feel the Aurostyle 5.1 layout leaves the same gaps perimeterwise, of a 5.1. in rectangular rooms, this layout leave alot of gaps. Going from 5.2 to 7.2.2 was huge for me. Especially with bi/dipoles for my side surrounds. Mounting all of my surrounds about 2 ft above ear level (old way), contrary to Dolby ATMOS recommendations, made for a much more immersive soundfield vs earlevel. Very impressed. Did he ever answer the question of weather the DSP makes different adjustments soundwise, for ceiling vs height speaker locations?
I like Gene's idea of just changing the angles having more of an on ceiling vs in ceiling speaker (it is actually my plan when we move to a rental) this is why I like the SVS Prime elevation it should sit on the ceiling nicely and give me the best of both worlds, it will be like an on wall speaker but more forward and closer to the listening position than the front stage.
I currently have a mix of the Auro and Atmos layout. Directly above the speakers would be perfect for Auro, but i have them 1.5m further towards me at the ceiling-> about halfway for Atmos. It works very good, so I will do the same, but a little more towards Auro, after my big move.
I have my marantz sr 7015, and Klipsch Atmos speakers exactly as he said, high up on the wall front and back and the Av receiver actually says down the bottom of the screen good for Atmos Auto 3-d and dts X
while we poo poo these sound mixes, let us keep in mind that Atmos and Immersive audio in general is about more than just height effects. The Object based nature of immersive audio can be leveraged on the traditional base layer of speakers as well. Not a lot of movies need a lot of height effects, but they can still use sound objects for precise positioning within the sound field. so I would hesitate to use the lack of height effects as the primary determination of the quality of a particular Atmos mix. (it can be a major indicator though)
I'm not sure that's the case. The base of Atmos is TrueHD. If you disable the height channels, I believe you're just getting TrueHD. I haven't heard a demonstrable difference between Atmos without height channels and TrueHD.
@@Audioholics This is an interesting point Gene, and I think warrants some further investigation... as with some of the great questions you asked Patrick that weren't directly answered (unless i missed something) like what does the Trinnov actually do to with the extra channels when playing a Dolby Atmos mix etc (virtualization, approximation, duplication?). And how exactly do the receivers handle the different label allocation... I wondered the same thing with my Yamaha when choosing to just allocate two height channels to Dolby Atmos. It seems to be working fine, but would be great to know how this works exactly. If you're looking for content ideas, please consider these questions for deep dives...
I am referring specifically to the object based nature of the format. if you've ever heard a big budget videogame in full surround sound, that is a completely object based mix. they can be incredibly immersive, even without any height effects involved. the ability to mix the sound objects in real-time, scaling them to the specific speaker layout of your system can be a huge benefit. Gene asked the question during the video: "what benefit is there to having 32 speakers when the mixes are limited to 7.1.4?" The benefit kicks in when they mix the sound objects into the soundtrack. Your processor utilizes as many of the speakers as necessary to recreate the intended effect in the sound field. In addition to this, sound mixers can have the processor use your speakers in an array if the effect calls for it, so larger theaters with many speakers can have an experience mimicking that of a commercial cinema in some cases.
@@FURognar thanks for this feedback as I don't have much experience with object based mixed games. My understanding on Blu-ray is limited to 7.1.4 so I'm guessing beyond that mix in the home, the other channels would be derived or matrixed. I will dig deeper on this issue.
Patrick of grope me on TV, thanks for your time and coming on! Gene, Front/Rear Height speaker layout in the AVR will work for all 3 sound formats. It will show in the bottom when setting layout and list all 3. If they are not going to make a good immersive mix then why the hell am I buying 4K Atmos discs for a silenced height layer instead of 1080p when I can upmix the 5.1 mix? For the 2K upscale and HDR? There was an important point made that they neutered the DTS HD master audio mix with Alita and the Atmos Mix has like 5-6dB hotter LFE. They may start doing this to continue to upsell us by neutering the 1080p mix with anemic bass. Let’s help push Auro-3D for home release in the USA! Spot on about saying Dolby needs to talk to the studios to tell them to make better mixes. I have my set up where I can turn off all of the bed layer speakers connected to external Parasound and only hear the height layer which is connected to the Denon 4200. I paid $199 for the Auro-3D upgrade.
So an update for today: Should I add 2 pairs of height channels fronts and rears?? Or in ceiling 2 pairs fronts and rears??? If the answer is Heights and I’m using SVS Prime Elevations, what angle should I have them?? Thanks
I’m a fan of Grobi tv and happy to see Mr Patric in your programme. I request Mr Patric to put sub titles in English for his videos Thanks to Gene Dalla Salla for the video and I like to see more videos with Patric and Anthony Girmani
Can’t wait to try Aura 3D but for now DTS Neural X is best for music but you must bump the surrounds and back surrounds up 5-10 dB. Gene is right about DTS but when you “fix” it it’s great!
I’m finding it balances things out Gene. Everything seems right in my 7.2 system. Vocals are just right with a little more emphasis on left, right. But you definitely have to turn up the surrounds, no doubt. I’m also running 4 side surrounds. I like the idea of additional speakers to really make the sound 3D. One set of side surrounds are dipole, the other direct. I suspect I’ll like Aura 3D the best for that reason when I upgrade to a Marantz or Denon . Old stereo heads sometimes don’t get it I noticed. First there was mono, than there was stereo and now we have codecs which give us more dimensions. Love your channel Gene, you’re the real deal.
I really hope 2020 is the year for Auro 3D in North America. I do think they are going about it rather slowly though with just demo disc. If they want to compete with Dolby now, they need to get their decoder online and on the popular streaming services. Even if Dolby has bought exclusivity with most of them, then go after the video game industry. Offer money hungry companies like EA a cheaper price, and they will at least give you appointment to convince them.
Going with Auro for videogames makes no sense, since the games audio is already object based, so the path from the PC/console to the AVR is direct, rather than having to be converted to a channel based format.
I experience a way better music experience when I play it in Auro2d, compared to DTS or Dolby. However, the sound is focused on the front channels and I get very very low sound from the surrounds. I wish I can have Auro’s amazing music signature, wonderful bass, and whatever they do that makes music so full, clear and enjoyable, but at the same time it gets me immersed and surrounded by sound. Denon’s Multi Channel Stereo is my second best option. It does a much better job surrounding me with sound, but it is not as wonderful as Auro’s.
Question I had is the same Gene asked, but wasn't answered correctly since he sort of mislabeled....i have my 4 ceiling speakers designated as Top Front and Top Rear. Due to the slopes, I can technically classify them as Front Height and Rear Height. My question is does that make a difference in listening to Atmos content in 5.1.4 and can I simply repurpose the label/configuration. I'm unclear in the home application if the dearth of Atmos content is specifically to the top channels or does that included the front heights?
I would say that the processors in home application AVRs aren't strong enough to do a complicated 3D calc for the configured speaker placement. So switching to Heights shouldn't make a big difference. The added benefit of having the ability to play both tracks and using the Auromatic is much greater.
Very knowledgeable video DTS upmixing for music isn’t good . Movies it’s fine . But your right speakers on the ceiling in the theater I don’t feel any effect only mainly the ear level.DENON gave a 30 degree layout for all formats angled down .
Now i dont feel so bad i was thinking, I set my atmos up wrong I'm glad i didnt spend a whole lot of money on those 4 atmos speakers RC80i 129.00 a pair
I love all your vids. Question that is driving me nuts... I use one setup for both movies 7.2 and music 2 channel stereo. Sometimes multichannel stereo... I do not like using the external subs for music. All my speakers are currently set to small. My L&R are towers and I have the subs turn off in stereo mode. (Advanced speaker setting on Marantz.) Crossovers on all small speakers set to 80hz. Am I losing sound in stereo mode with the towers set to small with subs disabled? If so, Is there a way to set the towers to large in stereo mode only and small in all other sound modes? Appreciate
It's not just the lack of height effects in Atmos. It's a lack of dynamic objects at all. They have static "objects" at speaker locations and then just click the 5.1 mix and convert it to "objects" and slap an Atmos logo on it. Atmos is a sham in more ways than just the mixes as well. I'd like all movies to abandon it. Only use DTS:X and Auro, both are good.
So it’s time to get rid of my bouncy house speakers and remount them like I used to do with my old Yamaha receivers (their extra heigh -immersion speakers back in the days) up to the wall/close to the ceiling again.
Probably the best video while the saddest video I've seen. I was literally seconds from ordering in ceiling speakers for an Atmos layout. Now I'm contemplating just giving up and staying with my 5.1 setup.
@@grobitv I appreciate the reply. After watching this video I felt at this point in time upgrading to an Atmos layout would be pointless when I have a receiver that can do Atmos but not Auro especially when Atmos codecs are less than impressive. I am inclined to disagree with a message you portrayed in the video which is an Atmos layout is not compatible to an Auro layout. I read the Auro 3D Installation Guidelines Rev:6 and at the bottom of page 24/30 contradicts your message. So I am now slightly inclined to upgrade to an Atmos layout knowing that most Atmos disks are “underwhelming” yet with more knowledge of a recommended Auro layout I can better define my placement to be compatible with both systems if I upgrade to Auro capabilities.
Rockhurst22 You need a OneForAll-Setup to run all three audio 3D formats with one speaker configuration. Install Front Heights / Rear Heights-Configuration with 30 degree elevation angle to the listening position. Elevation angle of 30 degrees is mandatory for a neasrly perfect Auro 3D / Auromatic result. Dropping below 20 degrees elevation will ruin everything, because separation from lower and upper layer is not possible anymore.
Nitropenda Nitropenda I understand all that. What the video contradicts with Auro’s layout is the top height channels for Atmos can be used as top channels for Auro but like you mentioned with Auro one would need even more speakers for the positions you’ve listed. Cheers.
Very informative video, be interested to see the the diagram of height speaker layout he sends you, one thing i am curios about is he was saying about the height speakers should be pointing down at around 45 degrees for Auro ( SVS ) type speakers would be ideal for this, but if you already have in ceiling speakers with steerable tweeters ( and the tweeter angled correctly ) mounted wide of your listening position would this not create the same affect for Auro.
Auro 3D needs elevation angles of about 30 degrees idealy (range ist between 25 and 40 degrees) of Front Heights and Rear Heights to the listening postion. Atmos tops should have an elevation angle of 45 degrees to the listening position. Also the Heights speaker are aligned to the listening ppsition, axes of all for speakers shoud be crossed 20cm above the head of the listener in sitting position. The most important thing for Auro 3D is the correct elevation angle to the listening position!
I have changed my setup from 4 atmos overhead speakers to front height and rear height. Problem is now when i start auro 3d i loose the signal on rear back surround speakers so i get only 5.2.4 signal. But if i run native atmos track i get the signal on all 7.2.4 speakers. I have Denon AVR-X4400H. I have also run the dolby leaf test pattern and it sounds better to me in atmos. Even with new height channels now it sounds better than with original atmos overhead speaker placement. I need to do further testing with the movies and switch between atmos and auro 3d to see if results are better with auro.
Standard Auro 3D / Auromatic is not supporting Back Surrounds in the lower layer. So only 5.1.4 / 9.1 is possible. Also 5.1.5 / 10.1, if an additional Top Surround / Voice of God is used. Auro 3D 7.1 in the lower layer is only supported in the extended Auro 3D version of Marantz AV8805 and Denon AVR-X8500H / AVC-X8500H. Also Trinnov and Stormaudio, which is out of budget range normally. This extended version supports 7.1.6 / 13.1 Auro 3D, and also the upmixing of native Auro 9.1/10.1 material up to 13 channels. Personally I drive a 7.2.6 loudspeaker setup with Rear Heights/Front Heights configuration. Additionally Top Middles (for Atmos), Top Surround (Voice of God) and Center Height for extended Auro 3D support. Together 15 loudspeakers which are switched automatically by the Denon X8500H depending of the incoming signal, Auro 3D or Dolby Atmos. So all three sound formats are possible.
@@Nitropenda1 Do you have a diagram of our speaker positions posted, or some pictures of how they are in your theater. I plan to get an 8500 and reconfigure my speakers to achieve something like what you have done. Thanks
its amusing, a video about something ive been saying since week 1 of owning my 1st Marantz (5.1.4/9.1)years ago, with Auro3D. Sadly, in North America there is no/very little Auro3D media, you have to import it, which can be a real trick.. Atmos engineers have become lazy and unmotivated due to zero competition in the home. X and Auro3D both do a 50x better job even in the upmixer in movies. NOW having said that, PC sound with the upmixer is where it starts falling apart, on ALL levels. Even with the flagship Dolby Cinema game 'battlefield 1', theres still MUCH MUCH work to be done, upmixing or otherwise. The headphone wrapper is a joke, on all levels. If you want game companies to take you seriously, you REALLY have to step up your game, at least 100x. Someone should forward this video/comments to Dolby just to show them how much of a laughing stock they are currently, and they did it to themselves, and nothing more. Hopefully they dont make sound from below take 16 years to come out. :P Ideal Auro3D mixed movie : Heat (Pacino/DeNiro) IMHO, Imax enhanced, just a cash grab, some software EQ settings, nothing more.
What i dont understand is websites like bluray.com going on about how amazing the overhead sounds are in almost all of their reviews when clearly their are almost no sounds from the height channels
I have Auro 3D and I watched all the Marvel films using this format as it sounded better to me (Denon 6300 upgraded to Auro, Bowers and Wilkins speakers).
What I can't understand, is the difference, why there are no, or so few Music-Studios in the USA, where this setup is provided for listeners, to hear the difference, between the original setup and the setup, providing this setup listening to the Auro 3D and the Setup Dolby Surround. If it's not provided to the possible listeners, to hear the difference, between an original. Listen to the Dolby Surround. Now it's much easier to listen to the Sound, after using the Set-Up, The Description to setup the in the Setup like the, for instance, would be the setup. Used the Setup would be the Setup, would be the one. using the one, and not the one the one, and not the one, easy that would be the way to listen to the music. I'll never hear the music concerning on this over this this
Why do modern TVs don't support 3D playback? Similar issue; 3D audio is one, but 3D vision really adds immersion. My Sony TV of 10 years old supports 3D playback and I'm keeping it as long as I can. I have the impression the market is broken...8K TVs, what the heck, there exists no 8k content BUT there IS 3D content.
This video was informative and disappointing. I just spent a lot of money on a new Klipsch Reference Premier system with the Pro-180RPC ceiling speakers. To find out this probably wasn’t the best choice for height speakers is disappointing. Should I change the to wall height speakers? I did get the Denon 6500H. Will this receiver do the Auro up mixing you’re referring to? Thanks
Yes, X6500H works perfekt for a 5.1.4 / 9.1 or Auro 5.1.5 / 10.1 setup (with Voice of God). But Auro 3D / Auromatic is not fully supporting 7.1 in the lower layer; Back Surrounds are not supported and will be unused. So if you have a 7.1.4- Front Heights/Rear Heights-Layout for Atmos, the Back Surrounds will not work with Auro 3D. For full support of all speakers up to 13 channels in a 7.2.6 configuration, you need the Denon AVR-X8500H or Marantz AV8805 pre amplifier (or Trinnov, Stormaudio, Datasat highend stuff). Both have the extended Auro 3D installed, supporting Back Surrounds in a 7.1 basis in the lower layer and Center Height / Voice of God in the upper layer. Additionally 7.1.6 Atmos is possible with supported Top Middles.
Thank you Gene and Patrick. Great Video and interesting Standpoints about 3d Audio. I'm from Germany and I subscribe you both, Grobi and Audioholics, on TH-cam. Take a closer Look for the Grobi Videos, they are really great!
Im not a fan off this upmixing...ok you get some extra height channel activity but you also get a loads of sounds coming from above that shouldn't be their..upmix any off the lord ring movies you will hear what im talking about..waves lapping up on the ceiling and stuff...im serious tinking of just going back to 7.1
I think studios are getting lazy, and not mixing the soundtracks properly. Thus, thinking that most consumers listen to plain Dolby Digital or Stereo. They assume that we don’t know the difference, but we DO hear the difference. 🤔 💭
You’d think Disney would do a better job mixing for Atmos, too bad they bought out LucasFilm who pioneered THX, as an independent LucasFilm/THX could be pushing the ball forward on a 3rd surround format of their own giving the consumer, and global markets more competitive incentive to actually get their acts together and deliver on their immersive promises. A dolby Monopoly in USA, and an Auro monopoly in Europe, leaves the Japanese Denon and Marantz consumers the winners as they have their choice. Maybe if Sony, Samsung, Apple, Microsoft, or Lucasfilm/Disney, created some more proprietary surround sound technology options. We would see licensing fees come down, which would give more consumers access to choices, both in receivers and home theater topologies. Disney/THX could do some proprietary stuff with their ip and streaming service. Sony and Microsoft could do interesting things in competition between their game consoles, and their VR. Apple has their unique home-pod acoustics, streaming TV ip, Beats headphones and carplay to enter the market with unique surround technologies. So lets show this Auro/Dolby duopoly the door; increase choice, compatibility, and competitive innovation. All the sources have to play across all the codecs, but which one plays and up mixes better. Which titan of oligopoly will be the one who decodes reverberant affects and doppler phase asymmetry to extract the most realistic hidden 3 dimensional characteristics. Which receiver am I going to get which has the processing I think is best, or is best for what I listen to. The internet has made region restrictions of content a protectionist inconvenience, let Auro and Dolby and any others prove their metal on the world stage. For the good of all humanity, let our art flow all around the world with maximization, not limitation.
Sadly, THX lost its way when it was bought out. Such a shame. So many cinemas stopped paying the THX licensing fees, mainly for the wrong reasons. It could have been at the forefront of 3D multichannel sound expansion in cinemas, probably in association with Dolby or DTS/Datasat.
I've stuck with 5.1 and have no plans on ever adding another chanel. Hell if your like me and have no interest in these silly super hero movies than really we have very little content that would ever warrant adding chanels. 2-ch stereo rules!
Almost every German Blu Ray has no Atmos or DTS:X. 95% of the time i use Auro3D 5.1.5. 4% i use Dolby Surround for Stereo because Auro sucks upscaleling Stereo.
This video is based on so much nonsense it's hard to believe that he's on the much respected Audioholics. Let's start with the question that keeps coming up over and over. What percentage of sounds do we get in real life from overhead? Then the common answer is "not very much so why have speakers above our head? " This is completely and utterly incorrect. We are constantly hearing sounds throughout our entire day from above. Just a few of the sounds from above us EVERY DAY are birds, people in hi rises, echos, airplanes and helicopters, walk through a forest or a city and sounds are all around us.(lots of reflected sound comes from above.) All of our hearing in daily life is literally 3D. Yes the vast majority of our daily sound comes from the "ground plane" but we do infact get a lot of sounds from above every day. This argument is completely invalid. Next argument: More speakers are not better in an object based surround format. Another incorrect statement. Since the beginning of discrete surround sound the hardest job of our system was to put sounds where there wasn't a speaker. The only solution was and is to put speakers where you want the sound. This is still the only solution. These 2 points are incorrect and shouldn't be repeated so let's stop. Now as to the rest of what he's saying he's spot on. Many of our movies mixed for Atmos are completely underwhelming. This is a fact.
I just setup 6 heights with vog/ch and a/b/c blind tested it with wife, friends, kids. In all of the test movie soundtracks that we knew the details, the auro upmix won over dtsX and atmos and their upmixes. When taking down vog/ch and just did 4 heights with auro - it won. In the absence of great atmos and other upmixes the auro solution is preferred to us. I could care less which solution works the best, it's just a button press, I care less for a euro-salesman, I'd just as well take an American company, but auro but is best for me. I have 40 foot ceilings in a big room so maybe that is it. Without vog/ch I just said turn it off there is no reason for me to watch anything until I get those back up.
Correction on Minute 53: The movie with the Submarine in DTS:X was of course not Mission Impossible. I meant Fast&Furios 8. Here is our Test Movie with demonstration the Effects and the Upmixer in Fast&Furios 8 th-cam.com/video/_U8SQFUhmtM/w-d-xo.html
Dolby Rug™, a rug with inbuilt speaker and put it below your feet!
Buy x5 for your whole family!
Greatest breakthrough in 20 years!
Apple sauce 😂
Actually try mounting speakers in a coffeetable (exciters or tactile transducers) you'd get a similar effect and a crazy binaural soundstage.
My two favorite home cinema TH-camrs finally together 👍
Patrick was awesome!
Top 10 content I was able to find. Gene's and Patrick's knowledge and experience combined is remarkable.
In other words, it's a mess. Great interview Gene, thanks!
Got all giggidy when I saw the notification. Love hearing just general conversation about these audio formats. I’m so weird, they don’t have medicine for that though. Will watch this later, thanks and please keep ‘em coming! Also, let our voices be heard that we made the investment for immersive sound and expect it to be utilized to the fullest!
Glad you feel the passion as well.
Gene, you legend! Thank you for what you do for the A/V industry. 👍
Wow ,it's a nice Video 👍👌 First Time I'm seeing Mr.Patrick.I have an Auro3d 10.2 setup at my home using Marantz SR8012,which can do Atmos & DTS X 5.2.4 too. What's Mr.Patrick was saying is absolutely true.I use to tell to my Audio frds about some of this points , especially Auromatic upmixer.The front & rear heights create a vertical stereo image between Front & surround speakers ,so u can hear the immersive sound .The true thing is good content availabilities are limited.
And upmixing works on everything including Auro3D and Dolby Atmos.
absolutely everyone I talk to that has both Auro and Atmos prefer the Auro version and many prefer to upmix in Auromatic.
it makes me regret not spending the extra for an Auro model. but I'm a budget shopper so the auro models are outside my budget
I like the dts up mixers better but for reg cable auro is great
Honestly, I had Auro3D for a while, and after I moved to Yamaha, I never missed it. In fact, even when I still had an Auro AVR, I rather used Neural:X to Upmix since Auro doesn't work at all for 2 Channel content and for 5.1 content the Auro Upmixer is less precise than Neural:X
@@rolandrohde id have to agree
@@rolandrohde Auro3D has the big benefit that is does nothing with the 5.1./7.1 ground layer. It only adds extra upper channels. This way you maintain much better audio quality. No extra processing like for example the Dolby Atmos upmixer. The technology and research behind Auro3d is much much longer than Dolby and DTS. Playing Atmos on a channel based Auro 3d speaker layout works fine. The other way around doesnt work. I have customers who did choose for an Auro3d speaker layout and use a true hd and dts master core just for the Auro upmixer because of the better quality. Auro3D is the best immersive sound you can have IMO. but it's a fact that height channels also create more problems like reflections. I always mention that's its better to have a good ground layer instead of crapy immersive sound. First focus on a good placement on the ground level. Good placement and acoustic treatment. Then focus on immersive sound. I visited Wilfried in the Mol studio's in Belgium. Fantastic studio and a guy with passion and knowledge.
@@onlyvik
To me it never sounded quite right...and my Speaker layout is perfectly inside the standards in a well treated room.
My main gripe with Auro was though, that ot completely butchered 2 Channel content. So if I switched to linear TV I always had to deactivate Auro anyway.
For Multichannel it was OK, but I often felt it blew up the LFE and swallowed details in the 2D layer...but that might have been my imagination...
You guys are great together-very entertaining and informative. Both of you could start a reality tv show traveling around observing home theater setups.It would be fantastic.
This was disturbingly informative. Very good information though.
It seems like another triumph of marketing over substance.
Auromatic for the win.
Thanks gene...for this video and your earlier stream on Dolby restrictions...I have marantz av7705 and had never used the auro 3d because I never got any auro 3d content.....but I was pleasantly surprised by the auro mixers, when I started using them for my daily regular contents and movies too....there is auro 2d mixer, which is for 5.1, which I use for all daily content including 2 channel content and there is auro 3d mixer, which is 5.1.4, which I use for movies.
The great thing about auro 2d mixing is that, it sound great for 2 channel listening also including TH-cam and spotify, even with only the 2 fronts and sub playing (centre and surround switched off).
I use the reflective Atmos speakers as I stay in rented apartment, but still auro 3d sounds better than Dolby and DTS upmixer for 5.1 content. It's not placebo as I can literally hear more details switching back and forth between the upmixers. Bass also feels deeper in auro mixing.
I haven't tried auro with true Atmos or DTS X content yet, but plan to do this coming weekend.
Thanks again gene...keep up the good work.
Maybe you can also invite Patrick later for some tips on using auro 2d and 3d mixers, automatics settings.
Thanks for this video; great stuff. Please do additional videos on Auro-3D. Topics to Address 1) Difference in sound experience with 9.1 vs. 10.1 (I've read that the Auro-3D inventor prefers 9.1 over 10.1); what do you miss w/o the Voice of God; does the format compensate so you do not miss anything. 2) If you build your HT to Auro-3D specifications what do you hear when you watch something formatted in Atmos? 3) Are more companies supporting Auro-3D, and what's should we expect for 2021?
I thoroughly enjoyed this video and found it very interesting and revealing. Thank you Gene for introducing us to Patrick and Patrick, danke schoen, das war sehr interesant! Ich habe viel gelehrnt.. :-) I do think Gene asked some very interesting and valid questions that weren't entirely answered (how Trinnov handles the additional channels and how the AVR's handle the labeling issue), so let's do this again Patrick and Gene... we've got lots more learning and discovery ahead of us... :-)
Until they make another video together you can watch a video about Trinnov over at the grobi.tv channel...
th-cam.com/video/Ln2okhgVYi8/w-d-xo.html
It's even in english ( with some german translation ;) )
@@TheRealSchnitti Yeah, this was very interesting. I loved how Patrick sometimes forgot to speak German to his audience... not so easy doing a multi language presentation. Luckily I speak German so I enjoyed hearing all about the Grobi theater as well. Man, the sophistication of that Trinnov blows the mind!
@@BrendonHeld Dito, hatte mir nur gedacht, dass das mit der englischen Sprache bei dem normalen Audioholics Publikum ne Rolle spielen könnte 😉
Die Trinnov ist schon echt nen krasses Stück Technik ... nur leider sowas von unbezahlbar und damit jenseits von gut und böse 😅😆🙈
@@TheRealSchnitti Dass kannst du laut sagen mein Fruend! I'd literally have to sell all my internal organs to afford one of those bad boys... but they're the stuff of dreams from what I can see... :-)
I have no facts for this, but I think even if the Atmos has a 7 channel bed on to lower layer, the objects are still calculated for all configured speakers. The same goes for the cinema version. The bed is in 9.1, so they have space for 118 additional sound objects. So as they are placed everywhere in the Z direction, they are distributed on both layers.
Speaking of next generation sound that not so many know about, but I use two bass-shakers under the sofa to get immersive thunder, car or shaking effects it really enhances the sound level massively without a subwoofer (main speakers are in the near range of full spectrum 40-32000hz) and the bass-shakers with cutoff under 80hz but range around 10-80hz. you can feel the low sound and still hear it due to the sofa generating the sound. It's awesome the front mains I also use two height speakers for dts:x and atmos.
A great video would love if you did another video about the different height speaker layouts, what is the difference between front height or top height. Also, a video going on how to use the upmix like he is talking about instead of Dolby Atmos.
It was fun to see those guys together in a video! Please do it more often! 😉👍
speaker layout wise, the recommended setup for Atmos, DTS:X and Auro 3D is more along the lines of Yamaha's Classic 11.1, minus the Surround back L/R!
Fascinating discussion! Right on the money with Dolby "liquidating" the Dolby Atmos brand before they've really made in-roads with the brand/spec.
Really the biggest difference maker for correcting these garbage dumbed-down BD atmos releases is Dolby themselves. The faster they water down the Atmos brand / experience, the more they open up themselves up to the next big thing (IMAX enhanced?)
It was phenomenal to get the european and the american point of view in one video. Please make more of these.
On my way back from the gym I thought about what you said about wanting a bed layer only upmixer from Dolby or DTS since the surrounds were very immersive and to keep it “2D”. I remember what you said about turning the center channel off for surround music and I guess you could turn off the heights when you’re doing music only and apply the DSU. Annoying to go back and forth but at least everything will be mixed into the surrounds instead of the heights.
Patrick you’re so right on the money The atmoss on 90% of movies is pathetic I have an SR 8012 and I sett it up, even though the speakers are in the ceiling I set them as height speakers so I can switch it to euro 3D
So glad you guys made this video watched it when I came out but commenting again I spend over 2k on in ceiling speakers alone not counting install etc and nothing but maybe one movie and games sound above me this needs to be fixed
I love this guy and his Gobi channel he has a good, the best view and opinion over Hifi
What an awesome discussion!! Patrick was really informative and great to listen to!
Gene, I hope you revisit this topic soon with your findings. I'd also be curious to hear what Patrick has to say about the state of Stereoscopic in Germany/Europe as I am pretty much exclusively importing 3D from UK, DE, IT, FR and even JPN now.
Now to flip our Theater SR8012 7.2.4 from Ceiling to Heights and see what this Auro3D hype is all about....
Well 3D is a mixed bag in europe. If you want the best audio, dolby atmos in german included, you mostly have to take the 2D or UHD route. I don't know why they never put the 3D Audio on the 3D disc. They even do strange things like putting the german and english Atmos track on the normal Bluray, but leaving the german out on the UHD one to fit 15 other european and asian langs in Dolby Digital 5.1 on it. You pay 20 bucks more for the discs, and have worse sound?
And since all new UHD Tvs aren't equipped with 3D capability the sales are certainly not rising. But my local electronics market has the same size 3D section for years now, so the sales may not be that bad.
Patrick is really committed with Auro3D . Which is to me the best upmixer but it has some flaws sometimes virtualising the sound and you have to be very accurate with the placement of your speakers. And you have to have to the same speakers to get the best results.
I use the Marantz AV8805 and the auromatic but I must say that in games Atmos sometimes truly shines. They should focus on the gaming industry as its now bigger than the cinema industry.
BTW I tested IMAX and it is crap now. It boost the bass way to much. To me it’s like the beats studio from the past. A nice U shaped curve :)
Like Gene mentioned high ceilings are important for separation - 9-10 feet for heights and even brighter with VOG. Then it will shine, otherwise Dolby atmos. Mind that there are many movies with poor mixes. You cannot compare poor atmos mix with upmixer - upmixer will enhance based on data it’s got - native mix won’t. But on some AVRs you can enable Dolby processing for movies then you will engage enhancing and that can make night and day difference- in my case topping Auro3D
Just finished building my theater. Looks like I'll be taking it apart to rearrange my speakers for Auro 3d. And I thought I'd done my last drywall, sanding, and painting. If only this video had come out 2 months ago...
Noone is really finished with his home cinema.
@@florichi You got that right! Silly me to think otherwise.
A good sound mix should blend sounds between multiple loudspeakers to virtualize location, like people do with phantom centers, that was the marketing with these immersive formats, you place a sound in 3d space and the processor will in real time spread that sound to the right speakers and at the right volumes to simulate the intended location without having to hard code for different physical layouts with locked channels. Unfortunately, today that doesnt happen in home, not sure if it's just a matter of processing power (probably, but that's a lame excuse) or what. Seems like most of the audio is in a locked bed, with very few objects for the system to play with, that's why most are not spread between the lower and upper speakers, could also be a disc data rate/storage space issue too, where there just isn't enough room to have the objects individualized enough to properly real time mix, if ti were the speaker layout really wouldn't matter that much becasue every sound should be able to be virtualzied in 3d space as marketed, you wouldn't have as many "black holes" of audio where no speaker existed . Since so much of the track is hard coded though, it won't spread to the upper speakers (top or side) unless specific sounds are intentially placed there which are few and far between. I think that is where the up mixers and algorithms are coming in to play, it is allowing the processor to do the very magic the format was supposed to deliver natively but isn't up to the task with current specifications of home hardware. Again with proper coding, the processor should be able to compensate that upmix to either top or ceiling heights equally well, but doesn't sound like they really put the time or effort in,. Realistically a speaker pointed at you from above shouldn't sound that diffrent if in ceiling vs wall mounted height as long as you get it properly time aligned and volume levaled. I guess the main factor would be how much it spreads vs how much it beam forms, there are benefits to having speakers further away from you and top speakers do achieve that easier than in ceilings given most people's homes. Honestly, the choice to go in ceiling or on wall will likely be determined for most people depending on the room (as to which is more ideal sonically) If you have a large long wide room, in ceilings will likely be better if placed say at every 3rd (skipping the middle if you have 4 in ceiling channels) . A small room especially with low ceilings likely will be better off with on wall heights.
I wish more people can enjoy and try auro3d. It is much better and you can hear the difference when you compare with atmos and dts neuro x.
I am wondering when denon will come with a firmware so unblock the restriction from atmos. Also we need more films with auro please
Are you saying your current Denon receiver has the Dolby restriction for upmixing? Which model?
@@Audioholics Denon is not shipping units with Denon restriction to upmix Dolby with auro3d. The restriction are only now in the neu 2019 machines for dts x upmixer.
@@Audioholics Hi it is so nice to see a reply from you. Big fan from your channel. My model is Denon avr x6400h. Looking to upgrade to 8500 13 speakers. Perhaps I am confused about restrictions but when you play films or games with Xbox one x you have the option to send the signal Atmos or Bistream. When you send it with atmos witch I don't do often, you can not change it to auro 3d or Dts. The option is gone and instead you have atmos music or cinema on the receiver options. I have to send everything Bistream if I want to hear on Dts or Auro. When I do that I am able to choose any format from all denon favours or colours including stereo all or just 2.1. With Bistream you have more options but when I choose atmos on my Xbox the options are gone. Totally agree with the German friend Auro is a different level I live in Europe so I am lucky enough to get some auro films and the difference is there. Unfortunately Atmos has become the new Boss. Overrated and every time lowing their own expectations in order to make more profit. Also calling speakers don't give you the same effect than speakers on the wall top. I can report that because I have ceilling and top wall speakers. I know I am crazy 😋 I had to try both so I can choose the best experience. Please keep your hard work guys and hopefully all this big companies one day will open their eyes and realize that not everything is about to make quick money but instead to create legacy and create new technology to overcome our boundaries. Greeting from UK.
@@aferalva69 this is a xbox problem not your reciver..
@aferalva This is not an error. Xbox One and also Apple TV 4K are using a special kind of Dolby Atmos for Streaming. Normally Dolby Atmos on UHD Blu-ray has a 5.1/7.1 core coded in Dolby Digital TrueHD or Dolby Digital Plus. Additionally the Atmos hight Information is stored in the meta data.
An upmixer, e.g. Auromatic or DTS: Neural X, needs the core data and the 5.1 / 7.1 channel bed in the core for calculating the height data.
But the special Dolby Atmos version of Xbox and Apple TV is coming WITHOUT the core data! There is NO TrueHD core inside. And if no core is found, the upmixers are not available, because they have no data for calculating. They need the channel bed.
Only solution: switching signal output from bitstream to PCM. Then we get 5.1/7.1-LPCM multichannel signals and voila, you can switch on the upmixers again! Easy going :-)
Gene made the perfect question about 8' ceilings and how it won't allow a proper Auro setup... and he didn't want to hear that. My Atmos in ceiling speakers are at 30 degrees which is within spec of both Atmos and Auro... but Auro requires the height channels to be at the same distance as the ear level speakers, which I can't do.
Separation indeed needed. I have 8 foot ceiling and it’s seems is not enough. Extra 1-2 feet would make the difference
I feel the Aurostyle 5.1 layout leaves the same gaps perimeterwise, of a 5.1. in rectangular rooms, this layout leave alot of gaps. Going from 5.2 to 7.2.2 was huge for me. Especially with bi/dipoles for my side surrounds. Mounting all of my surrounds about 2 ft above ear level (old way), contrary to Dolby ATMOS recommendations, made for a much more immersive soundfield vs earlevel. Very impressed.
Did he ever answer the question of weather the DSP makes different adjustments soundwise, for ceiling vs height speaker locations?
I hear you Gene on the DTS:X Neural upmixer with 2-channel stuff... I agree. But it does work very well on 5.1 content. Better than Surround IMO.
I like Gene's idea of just changing the angles having more of an on ceiling vs in ceiling speaker (it is actually my plan when we move to a rental) this is why I like the SVS Prime elevation it should sit on the ceiling nicely and give me the best of both worlds, it will be like an on wall speaker but more forward and closer to the listening position than the front stage.
I currently have a mix of the Auro and Atmos layout. Directly above the speakers would be perfect for Auro, but i have them 1.5m further towards me at the ceiling-> about halfway for Atmos. It works very good, so I will do the same, but a little more towards Auro, after my big move.
Gene, I sure hope that you have Patrick back In 2021. Please.
I have my marantz sr 7015, and Klipsch Atmos speakers exactly as he said, high up on the wall front and back and the Av receiver actually says down the bottom of the screen good for Atmos Auto 3-d and dts X
while we poo poo these sound mixes, let us keep in mind that Atmos and Immersive audio in general is about more than just height effects. The Object based nature of immersive audio can be leveraged on the traditional base layer of speakers as well. Not a lot of movies need a lot of height effects, but they can still use sound objects for precise positioning within the sound field.
so I would hesitate to use the lack of height effects as the primary determination of the quality of a particular Atmos mix. (it can be a major indicator though)
I'm not sure that's the case. The base of Atmos is TrueHD. If you disable the height channels, I believe you're just getting TrueHD. I haven't heard a demonstrable difference between Atmos without height channels and TrueHD.
@@Audioholics This is an interesting point Gene, and I think warrants some further investigation... as with some of the great questions you asked Patrick that weren't directly answered (unless i missed something) like what does the Trinnov actually do to with the extra channels when playing a Dolby Atmos mix etc (virtualization, approximation, duplication?). And how exactly do the receivers handle the different label allocation... I wondered the same thing with my Yamaha when choosing to just allocate two height channels to Dolby Atmos. It seems to be working fine, but would be great to know how this works exactly. If you're looking for content ideas, please consider these questions for deep dives...
I am referring specifically to the object based nature of the format.
if you've ever heard a big budget videogame in full surround sound, that is a completely object based mix. they can be incredibly immersive, even without any height effects involved.
the ability to mix the sound objects in real-time, scaling them to the specific speaker layout of your system can be a huge benefit.
Gene asked the question during the video: "what benefit is there to having 32 speakers when the mixes are limited to 7.1.4?"
The benefit kicks in when they mix the sound objects into the soundtrack. Your processor utilizes as many of the speakers as necessary to recreate the intended effect in the sound field.
In addition to this, sound mixers can have the processor use your speakers in an array if the effect calls for it, so larger theaters with many speakers can have an experience mimicking that of a commercial cinema in some cases.
@@BrendonHeld I already put these questions forward to the design engineers at Sound United. Inquiring minds want to know :)
@@FURognar thanks for this feedback as I don't have much experience with object based mixed games. My understanding on Blu-ray is limited to 7.1.4 so I'm guessing beyond that mix in the home, the other channels would be derived or matrixed. I will dig deeper on this issue.
Patrick of grope me on TV, thanks for your time and coming on!
Gene, Front/Rear Height speaker layout in the AVR will work for all 3 sound formats. It will show in the bottom when setting layout and list all 3.
If they are not going to make a good immersive mix then why the hell am I buying 4K Atmos discs for a silenced height layer instead of 1080p when I can upmix the 5.1 mix? For the 2K upscale and HDR? There was an important point made that they neutered the DTS HD master audio mix with Alita and the Atmos Mix has like 5-6dB hotter LFE. They may start doing this to continue to upsell us by neutering the 1080p mix with anemic bass. Let’s help push Auro-3D for home release in the USA! Spot on about saying Dolby needs to talk to the studios to tell them to make better mixes.
I have my set up where I can turn off all of the bed layer speakers connected to external Parasound and only hear the height layer which is connected to the Denon 4200. I paid $199 for the Auro-3D upgrade.
Gane, its time to do update with Patrick on the topic. Now with the new processor will be very interesting.
Thanks for this interview, very informative indeed.👏🏾
So an update for today:
Should I add 2 pairs of height channels fronts and rears?? Or in ceiling 2 pairs fronts and rears???
If the answer is Heights and I’m using SVS Prime Elevations, what angle should I have them??
Thanks
I’m a fan of Grobi tv and happy to see Mr Patric in your programme. I request Mr Patric to put sub titles in English for his videos
Thanks to Gene Dalla Salla for the video and I like to see more videos with Patric and Anthony Girmani
Great interview. Very informative.
this guy is a fountain of info great jobs guys
Can’t wait to try Aura 3D but for now DTS Neural X is best for music but you must bump the surrounds and back surrounds up 5-10 dB. Gene is right about DTS but when you “fix” it it’s great!
That doesn't fix the center dump DTS Neural:X does for 2CH music making it very unmusical.
I’m finding it balances things out Gene. Everything seems right in my 7.2 system. Vocals are just right with a little more emphasis on left, right. But you definitely have to turn up the surrounds, no doubt. I’m also running 4 side surrounds. I like the idea of additional speakers to really make the sound 3D. One set of side surrounds are dipole, the other direct. I suspect I’ll like Aura 3D the best for that reason when I upgrade to a Marantz or Denon . Old stereo heads sometimes don’t get it I noticed. First there was mono, than there was stereo and now we have codecs which give us more dimensions. Love your channel Gene, you’re the real deal.
I really hope 2020 is the year for Auro 3D in North America. I do think they are going about it rather slowly though with just demo disc. If they want to compete with Dolby now, they need to get their decoder online and on the popular streaming services. Even if Dolby has bought exclusivity with most of them, then go after the video game industry. Offer money hungry companies like EA a cheaper price, and they will at least give you appointment to convince them.
Going with Auro for videogames makes no sense, since the games audio is already object based, so the path from the PC/console to the AVR is direct, rather than having to be converted to a channel based format.
I experience a way better music experience when I play it in Auro2d, compared to DTS or Dolby. However, the sound is focused on the front channels and I get very very low sound from the surrounds.
I wish I can have Auro’s amazing music signature, wonderful bass, and whatever they do that makes music so full, clear and enjoyable, but at the same time it gets me immersed and surrounded by sound.
Denon’s Multi Channel Stereo is my second best option. It does a much better job surrounding me with sound, but it is not as wonderful as Auro’s.
Question I had is the same Gene asked, but wasn't answered correctly since he sort of mislabeled....i have my 4 ceiling speakers designated as Top Front and Top Rear. Due to the slopes, I can technically classify them as Front Height and Rear Height. My question is does that make a difference in listening to Atmos content in 5.1.4 and can I simply repurpose the label/configuration. I'm unclear in the home application if the dearth of Atmos content is specifically to the top channels or does that included the front heights?
I would say that the processors in home application AVRs aren't strong enough to do a complicated 3D calc for the configured speaker placement. So switching to Heights shouldn't make a big difference. The added benefit of having the ability to play both tracks and using the Auromatic is much greater.
Very knowledgeable video DTS upmixing for music isn’t good . Movies it’s fine . But your right speakers on the ceiling in the theater I don’t feel any effect only mainly the ear level.DENON gave a 30 degree layout for all formats angled down .
Now i dont feel so bad i was thinking, I set my atmos up wrong I'm glad i didnt spend a whole lot of money on those 4 atmos speakers RC80i 129.00 a pair
I love all your vids. Question that is driving me nuts... I use one setup for both movies 7.2 and music 2 channel stereo. Sometimes multichannel stereo... I do not like using the external subs for music. All my speakers are currently set to small. My L&R are towers and I have the subs turn off in stereo mode. (Advanced speaker setting on Marantz.) Crossovers on all small speakers set to 80hz. Am I losing sound in stereo mode with the towers set to small with subs disabled? If so, Is there a way to set the towers to large in stereo mode only and small in all other sound modes? Appreciate
It's not just the lack of height effects in Atmos. It's a lack of dynamic objects at all. They have static "objects" at speaker locations and then just click the 5.1 mix and convert it to "objects" and slap an Atmos logo on it. Atmos is a sham in more ways than just the mixes as well. I'd like all movies to abandon it. Only use DTS:X and Auro, both are good.
So it’s time to get rid of my bouncy house speakers and remount them like I used to do with my old Yamaha receivers (their extra heigh -immersion speakers back in the days) up to the wall/close to the ceiling again.
great interview Patrick is awesome
41:20 Atmos mixes are 7.1(.4)? Wait isn't Atmos object-based? Or is only DTS:X object-based in the end?
Probably the best video while the saddest video I've seen. I was literally seconds from ordering in ceiling speakers for an Atmos layout. Now I'm contemplating just giving up and staying with my 5.1 setup.
Rockhurst22 Big Mistake ;-)
@@grobitv I appreciate the reply. After watching this video I felt at this point in time upgrading to an Atmos layout would be pointless when I have a receiver that can do Atmos but not Auro especially when Atmos codecs are less than impressive. I am inclined to disagree with a message you portrayed in the video which is an Atmos layout is not compatible to an Auro layout. I read the Auro 3D Installation Guidelines Rev:6 and at the bottom of page 24/30 contradicts your message. So I am now slightly inclined to upgrade to an Atmos layout knowing that most Atmos disks are “underwhelming” yet with more knowledge of a recommended Auro layout I can better define my placement to be compatible with both systems if I upgrade to Auro capabilities.
Rockhurst22 You need a OneForAll-Setup to run all three audio 3D formats with one speaker configuration.
Install Front Heights / Rear Heights-Configuration with 30 degree elevation angle to the listening position. Elevation angle of 30 degrees is mandatory for a neasrly perfect Auro 3D / Auromatic result. Dropping below 20 degrees elevation will ruin everything, because separation from lower and upper layer is not possible anymore.
Nitropenda Nitropenda I understand all that. What the video contradicts with Auro’s layout is the top height channels for Atmos can be used as top channels for Auro but like you mentioned with Auro one would need even more speakers for the positions you’ve listed. Cheers.
Great video, alot of good info !!
Very informative video, be interested to see the the diagram of height speaker layout he sends you, one thing i am curios about is he was saying about the height speakers should be pointing down at around 45 degrees for Auro ( SVS ) type speakers would be ideal for this, but if you already have in ceiling speakers with steerable tweeters ( and the tweeter angled correctly ) mounted wide of your listening position would this not create the same affect for Auro.
Auro 3D needs elevation angles of about 30 degrees idealy (range ist between 25 and 40 degrees) of Front Heights and Rear Heights to the listening postion. Atmos tops should have an elevation angle of 45 degrees to the listening position. Also the Heights speaker are aligned to the listening ppsition, axes of all for speakers shoud be crossed 20cm above the head of the listener in sitting position. The most important thing for Auro 3D is the correct elevation angle to the listening position!
I have changed my setup from 4 atmos overhead speakers to front height and rear height. Problem is now when i start auro 3d i loose the signal on rear back surround speakers so i get only 5.2.4 signal. But if i run native atmos track i get the signal on all 7.2.4 speakers. I have Denon AVR-X4400H. I have also run the dolby leaf test pattern and it sounds better to me in atmos. Even with new height channels now it sounds better than with original atmos overhead speaker placement. I need to do further testing with the movies and switch between atmos and auro 3d to see if results are better with auro.
Thx for trying this out and please keep us informed. I will try the same on my Marantz SR8012.
@@Audioholics I want a video about it!
I currently have a 5.1.2 but i plan to upgrade and put speaker at the correct place.!
Maybe even do demos ?
Standard Auro 3D / Auromatic is not supporting Back Surrounds in the lower layer. So only 5.1.4 / 9.1 is possible.
Also 5.1.5 / 10.1, if an additional Top Surround / Voice of God is used.
Auro 3D 7.1 in the lower layer is only supported in the extended Auro 3D version of Marantz AV8805 and Denon AVR-X8500H / AVC-X8500H. Also Trinnov and Stormaudio, which is out of budget range normally. This extended version supports 7.1.6 / 13.1 Auro 3D, and also the upmixing of native Auro 9.1/10.1 material up to 13 channels.
Personally I drive a 7.2.6 loudspeaker setup with Rear Heights/Front Heights configuration.
Additionally Top Middles (for Atmos), Top Surround (Voice of God) and Center Height for extended Auro 3D support.
Together 15 loudspeakers which are switched automatically by the Denon X8500H depending of the incoming signal, Auro 3D or Dolby Atmos.
So all three sound formats are possible.
@@Nitropenda1 Do you have a diagram of our speaker positions posted, or some pictures of how they are in your theater. I plan to get an 8500 and reconfigure my speakers to achieve something like what you have done. Thanks
Charles Hord Yes, sure. I am using following speaker configuration: manuals.denon.com/AVCX8500H/EU/DE/DRDZSYhiettsoj.php
Can you review The Cerwin Vega XLS 215 Tower Speakers ?
Also sometimes the Atmos mix or the DTS:X one are only on the 4K Blu Ray. Makes no sense.
Great topics
its amusing, a video about something ive been saying since week 1 of owning my 1st Marantz (5.1.4/9.1)years ago, with Auro3D. Sadly, in North America there is no/very little Auro3D media, you have to import it, which can be a real trick.. Atmos engineers have become lazy and unmotivated due to zero competition in the home. X and Auro3D both do a 50x better job even in the upmixer in movies. NOW having said that, PC sound with the upmixer is where it starts falling apart, on ALL levels. Even with the flagship Dolby Cinema game 'battlefield 1', theres still MUCH MUCH work to be done, upmixing or otherwise. The headphone wrapper is a joke, on all levels. If you want game companies to take you seriously, you REALLY have to step up your game, at least 100x.
Someone should forward this video/comments to Dolby just to show them how much of a laughing stock they are currently, and they did it to themselves, and nothing more.
Hopefully they dont make sound from below take 16 years to come out. :P
Ideal Auro3D mixed movie : Heat (Pacino/DeNiro)
IMHO, Imax enhanced, just a cash grab, some software EQ settings, nothing more.
13 dislikes from Dolby employees.
🏆🏅🥇🏆🏅🥇 once again great information
is there any indication that auro-3d will be available in future firmware for the x3600h?
No. It’s not possible to integrate. Question of DSP Chips.
Shang-chi is another home mix that sounds terrible, and it had no bass, whereas the theater apparently had tons of bass.
I wonder how much further Auro-3D would be in the market if Gene would have backed it.
I love LOVE my Panamera :3
What i dont understand is websites like bluray.com going on about how amazing the overhead sounds are in almost all of their reviews when clearly their are almost no sounds from the height channels
This is maybe a good alternative page. He is checking the sound in detail. blu-ray-rezensionen.net/
@@grobitv thanks for that i will have a look
@@grobitv 😭😭😭its not in english
Has anyone tried dts: neo x ( an old upmixer)?
I have Auro 3D and I watched all the Marvel films using this format as it sounded better to me (Denon 6300 upgraded to Auro, Bowers and Wilkins speakers).
What I can't understand, is the difference, why there are no, or so few Music-Studios in the USA, where this setup is provided for listeners, to hear the difference, between the original setup and the setup, providing this setup listening to the Auro 3D and the Setup Dolby Surround. If it's not provided to the possible listeners, to hear the difference, between an original. Listen to the Dolby Surround. Now it's much easier to listen to the Sound, after using the Set-Up, The Description to setup the in the Setup like the, for instance, would be the setup. Used the Setup would be the Setup, would be the one. using the one, and not the one the one, and not the one, easy that would be the way to listen to the music. I'll never hear the music concerning on this over this this
Why do modern TVs don't support 3D playback? Similar issue; 3D audio is one, but 3D vision really adds immersion. My Sony TV of 10 years old supports 3D playback and I'm keeping it as long as I can. I have the impression the market is broken...8K TVs, what the heck, there exists no 8k content BUT there IS 3D content.
Did you get the answer? Auro3D upmixing and speaker set up. Next question?
This video was informative and disappointing. I just spent a lot of money on a new Klipsch Reference Premier system with the Pro-180RPC ceiling speakers. To find out this probably wasn’t the best choice for height speakers is disappointing. Should I change the to wall height speakers?
I did get the Denon 6500H. Will this receiver do the Auro up mixing you’re referring to?
Thanks
atpufs 6500 is perfect.
Yes, X6500H works perfekt for a 5.1.4 / 9.1 or Auro 5.1.5 / 10.1 setup (with Voice of God). But Auro 3D / Auromatic is not fully supporting 7.1 in the lower layer; Back Surrounds are not supported and will be unused. So if you have a 7.1.4- Front Heights/Rear Heights-Layout for Atmos, the Back Surrounds will not work with Auro 3D.
For full support of all speakers up to 13 channels in a 7.2.6 configuration, you need the Denon AVR-X8500H or Marantz AV8805 pre amplifier (or Trinnov, Stormaudio, Datasat highend stuff).
Both have the extended Auro 3D installed, supporting Back Surrounds in a 7.1 basis in the lower layer and Center Height / Voice of God in the upper layer.
Additionally 7.1.6 Atmos is possible with supported Top Middles.
Nitropenda Nitropenda Thanks for the input.
Thank you Gene and Patrick. Great Video and interesting Standpoints about 3d Audio. I'm from Germany and I subscribe you both, Grobi and Audioholics, on TH-cam. Take a closer Look for the Grobi Videos, they are really great!
Patrick you are a mine of knowledge, you have to reach the non German audience.
If the english community wants, I will start adding eng subs for the Grobi videos. Just let me know what videos could be interesting for you.
So when is Gene posting the speaker diagram Patrick was sending him.
You can see all the speaker diagramms he ment in the Marantz/Denon manuals. For example in the SR7012 manual from page 35 anwards.
Gene is dressed like an audio shaman.
Im not a fan off this upmixing...ok you get some extra height channel activity but you also get a loads of sounds coming from above that shouldn't be their..upmix any off the lord ring movies you will hear what im talking about..waves lapping up on the ceiling and stuff...im serious tinking of just going back to 7.1
Common Gene! Porsche over BMW any day......... I've had both and I'll always own a Porsche now that I've had one for over a year.
Understood but no backseat is a deal killer. I drive a BMW M240i which is as close to a Cayman I can get with a backseat.
@@Audioholics Nice to see, that you drive German Cars. And i drive US Cars ;-)
This means Dolby needs to improve their Atmos Virtualizer.
I think studios are getting lazy, and not mixing the soundtracks properly. Thus, thinking that most consumers listen to plain Dolby Digital or Stereo. They assume that we don’t know the difference, but we DO hear the difference. 🤔 💭
I don't have the money for an Atmos or Aura 3D system :( Good thing I also don't have the room for such system.
Hundy P - upmixing is better for me and always has been.
what tech is best to use for upmixing?
You’d think Disney would do a better job mixing for Atmos, too bad they bought out LucasFilm who pioneered THX, as an independent LucasFilm/THX could be pushing the ball forward on a 3rd surround format of their own giving the consumer, and global markets more competitive incentive to actually get their acts together and deliver on their immersive promises. A dolby Monopoly in USA, and an Auro monopoly in Europe, leaves the Japanese Denon and Marantz consumers the winners as they have their choice. Maybe if Sony, Samsung, Apple, Microsoft, or Lucasfilm/Disney, created some more proprietary surround sound technology options. We would see licensing fees come down, which would give more consumers access to choices, both in receivers and home theater topologies. Disney/THX could do some proprietary stuff with their ip and streaming service. Sony and Microsoft could do interesting things in competition between their game consoles, and their VR. Apple has their unique home-pod acoustics, streaming TV ip, Beats headphones and carplay to enter the market with unique surround technologies. So lets show this Auro/Dolby duopoly the door; increase choice, compatibility, and competitive innovation. All the sources have to play across all the codecs, but which one plays and up mixes better. Which titan of oligopoly will be the one who decodes reverberant affects and doppler phase asymmetry to extract the most realistic hidden 3 dimensional characteristics. Which receiver am I going to get which has the processing I think is best, or is best for what I listen to. The internet has made region restrictions of content a protectionist inconvenience, let Auro and Dolby and any others prove their metal on the world stage. For the good of all humanity, let our art flow all around the world with maximization, not limitation.
Sadly, THX lost its way when it was bought out. Such a shame. So many cinemas stopped paying the THX licensing fees, mainly for the wrong reasons. It could have been at the forefront of 3D multichannel sound expansion in cinemas, probably in association with Dolby or DTS/Datasat.
I've stuck with 5.1 and have no plans on ever adding another chanel. Hell if your like me and have no interest in these silly super hero movies than really we have very little content that would ever warrant adding chanels. 2-ch stereo rules!
The funny thing the super hero stuff has some of the worst atmos
Aww Patrick didn't do Keep Listening with you lol.
And.............MQA vs. non-MQA. Big difference.
Almost every German Blu Ray has no Atmos or DTS:X. 95% of the time i use Auro3D 5.1.5. 4% i use Dolby Surround for Stereo because Auro sucks upscaleling Stereo.
I watch these videos , wish they where in english.
? Which english ;-)
Gene I love your material but.... your audio for this video is quite subdued and a bit muddy.
This video is based on so much nonsense it's hard to believe that he's on the much respected Audioholics. Let's start with the question that keeps coming up over and over. What percentage of sounds do we get in real life from overhead? Then the common answer is "not very much so why have speakers above our head? " This is completely and utterly incorrect. We are constantly hearing sounds throughout our entire day from above. Just a few of the sounds from above us EVERY DAY are birds, people in hi rises, echos, airplanes and helicopters, walk through a forest or a city and sounds are all around us.(lots of reflected sound comes from above.) All of our hearing in daily life is literally 3D. Yes the vast majority of our daily sound comes from the "ground plane" but we do infact get a lot of sounds from above every day. This argument is completely invalid. Next argument: More speakers are not better in an object based surround format. Another incorrect statement. Since the beginning of discrete surround sound the hardest job of our system was to put sounds where there wasn't a speaker. The only solution was and is to put speakers where you want the sound. This is still the only solution. These 2 points are incorrect and shouldn't be repeated so let's stop. Now as to the rest of what he's saying he's spot on. Many of our movies mixed for Atmos are completely underwhelming. This is a fact.
Yea this video didn't age well and I didn't realize the pro Auro agenda that was being driven at the time.
I just setup 6 heights with vog/ch and a/b/c blind tested it with wife, friends, kids. In all of the test movie soundtracks that we knew the details, the auro upmix won over dtsX and atmos and their upmixes. When taking down vog/ch and just did 4 heights with auro - it won. In the absence of great atmos and other upmixes the auro solution is preferred to us. I could care less which solution works the best, it's just a button press, I care less for a euro-salesman, I'd just as well take an American company, but auro but is best for me. I have 40 foot ceilings in a big room so maybe that is it. Without vog/ch I just said turn it off there is no reason for me to watch anything until I get those back up.