The table with the animated maps looks really cool. Everybody should have one of those! To deal with the main issue about slow combat. . . I'd ask these things : why do people care if the combat is slow? What do we gain from faster combat? Do those people just hate combat, and want it to be over ASAP? Or is there some other reason why they want to get combat over with so quickly?
For me it would be how long i have to sort of wait for my turn a a player. if it takes 45 seconds or so to resolve an player's attack/action (not to mention the opponent's attacks) , I am staking dice for 5 minutes with a medium party . sure i can plan during that, but a bulk of the table is idle. i am not defending "speed at all costs", just a reason for keeping combat moving as swiftly as possible.
@@twitchew : that is a good point. Although I suppose a part of that issue is how much one cares that a bulk of the table is idle. Sitting there idle is not a big deal for me. . . For example, even if I'm not playing the mage, I can take some interest in his attempt to cast a fireball. Maybe that is also why I'm happy to watch a lot of "Let's Play" videos on TH-cam . But I do understand that not everybody is like me. So it makes sense that the idle table situation might be a problem for many players.
I did run a GURPS game last night with players that did not know the rules. It was fast and fun. The key was that I'm very familiar with the rules and could tell them what options they have and also did all the math for them. Also I created the characters for them. In case I would have started the session with character creation and by explaining the rules to them (esp. fighting options) they would not have given GURPS a try. So IMO it is really important to not overwhelm new players with all the options. Overtime they will start to look up and learn rules by themselves.
I think that when people say it is too slow, they really mean they hate that they can succeed on a hit and then have nothing happen because of defense rolls. Because GURPs is definately not slower than 5e at mid/high level and faster than Pathfinder for sure. I think it is great because it allows for active defense but people are used to the feeling of "hitting" a lot. I try to tell them they are really not doing anything other than ablating hit points but that is the game design; giving players the sense of accomplishment even if it doesn't do anything. In GURPS hits are meaningful. So it is just a different "feeling" but not really combat length.
@@Weirdguy6 basically either spend two or more rounds for an attack, or give yourself big -2/-4 and risk missing entirely without them defending and forget about targeting anything other than torso. Sounds fun, i guess.
@@TheStrangerQ you could evaluate for 3 turns so +3 to hit, feint so lets say the enemy gets -1 to defend, deceptive attack -2 to defend and -4 to hit plus all out attack +4 to hit and the enemy is at -3 to defend or more if feint works well or if you go heavier on the deceptive one clean deceptive slice through the neck is all you need
@@Weirdguy6 but if you want to play unarmed fighter, well, you suck, if you don't want to grapple, and you hit like a wet noodle, or for zero damage. Also, yes, I know all of this and it sounds tedious as hell.
GURPS, once understood, is a lot of fun as you say. To answer your question, NO this wasn't too long when you factor in the tension mounting. Although I had to laugh at the wizard going all in for that last Fireball, then completely wiffing! But that is a strong example of why these games are so much fun. I personally love the 1 second round and find it makes combat much more realistic. Keep up the great work!
I'm late in commenting but nice job in showing how GURPS combat can be fun, fast paced and exciting... other have probably pointed out a number of rules mistakes... like 4 always being a crit and some other small oversights... awesome map and table... I'm planning to build a screen-table as well ... looks great!
Love these videos, I find them so relaxing. I'm currently in love with GURPS although playing a campaingnwith 2nd edition (the most readily available here in Brazil). Keep up the great work and boy do envy that table :P
Initial tally was 12 turns with 8 of them in actual combat. The fight started a few minutes in so the total run time is about 30 minutes. That's 2.5 minutes each turn or 30 seconds for each of the 5 participants. Most fights I've had are about 7-9 combat turns so this is all about right. Most of the reason people say combat takes too long is because of the players not knowing or deciding on what to do rather than the game itself requiring so many rolls. If everyone is on their game and not hiding with their nose in a book or off in the bathroom then things move pretty quick. Remember, no matter what game it is as soon as you finish your round start thinking about what you will do next round.
The basilisk fails his perception check due to the range penalties on it. (range penalties are really bitchy in GURPS) (Basic p550. Penalty for range 21-30 yds is -7. Even if range penalties for perception arent as severe as they are for ranged attacks it should at least be a -1) Spear guy- a 3 or 4 is always a hit and a critical, regardless of skill. (Basic p381) The rogues' knife- A high quality weapon is a good way to help your damage output when a character can afford one. Also, he could use an all-out attack with the +2 damage option to enable possible penetration of the DR.
I ran a Shadowrun adventure last year which had a fight with a Basilisk. As I am not a fan of the Shadowrun's own ruleset, I used Savage Worlds. However, after watching this, I think GURPS would actually be a better fit. I'll have to see if I can run the same adventure to another group, this time with GURPS. Thanks for the video!
Ob yeah I used to enjoy Shadowrun once in awhile way back in the 90s but now I actually use GURPS for any cyberpunk genre game I run. The gun combat is way more fun I think. Thanks for watching!
Not slow, definitely not boring, but I also enjoy GURPS. ❤ Having players who know what they want to do on their turn, and do it without looking stuff up in a book makes the turns go a lot more smoothly in any system. Cheers!
What this really illustrates is why you should always push your primary skills higher than you think you need. If any of the Heroes had a 15 they’d get their hit rate up to 62% even while averting their eyes, far better than the 25% shots they had to rely on here.
honstly. I feel like D&D would have taken twice as long for the same combat. Or same-ish at best. Additionally, since every turn is very fast (1 second in game does not allow for many actions to do which is a good thing) turns rotate pretty quickly.
Was the -4 attack skill penalty for avoiding the basilisk's gaze too much? They could still see the body and legs just fine. It's not actually invisible. Maybe -1 attack penalty would suffice, but dodging a bite attack would also require a penalty because they can't really track the head safely.
I just went with the -4 for "not being able to SEE the target, but knowing it's position within 1y" modifier as seen in back of GURPS Campaigns. One could complicate it and split hairs on what modifiers to use in each of these turns/situations all day long thanks to GURPS plethora of modifiers, but best to keep things simple and keep it moving. Invariably some rules nerd will chime in with some obscure modifier/ability buried deep in some source book like Martial Arts but this example was meant to keep it fairly basic.
What basilisk is this? The GURPS basilisk (p. B460) doesn't chomp; it uses a Toxic Attack as a Malediction. If it did bite with its (blunt) teeth, its ST 2 guarantees that it will never do any damage. It also has no DR.
That basalisk is useless. I used EnragedEggPlants D&D converted Basalisk since i wanted a close approximation to the D&D version for better comparison of the how the 2 systems playout (see my D&D basalisk fight video)
@@easygurps It's not useless; it's just not a D&D basilisk. It more closely resembles a basilisk of folklore. But I can see why you changed it if you're going for a D&D comparison. (Alas that GURPS always needs to be compared to D&D!)
Why did the Rogue/Thief move to basilisk side instead of staying to the rear. Could have taken All Out Attack for +1 damage. Also the Rogue should probably have used short sword or at least have taken striking damage for added on ST attribute. Did the wizard get to aim for the fireball missile spell?
I do want to point out that, in the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy boxed set, Thief PCs have a special advantage that they can take that pumps their Striking ST for backstab attacks. If he was using that version of GURPS the Thief would've been more effective.
"Was it too slow?" No, but my wrist gets sore in GURPS from throwing so many dice, like I said I like to roll like 9D+ damage dice in all difference colours all in one throw so I have all the numbers for a complete resolution of an attack. I wouldn't want to take out the many rolls in GURPS, it's far superior to a lot of modern games where you might not even roll any dice for a whole session.
Did you know in GURPS 3E which I play combatants have to carry our their action AND DECLARE their NEXT ACTION at the end of their turn?!?!?! After playing GURPS regularly for two years I have only just noticed this. This will drastically change combat for me! Sorry you did IQ rolls for averting eyes. Do 4E have same rule for declaring next action? The Will rolls every coupla rounds is a cool imposition. GMs rules! And I quoteth from the book of 3E p95, para 2! "Your turn starts when you choose a maneuver and ends when you choose your next maneuver !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I'm doing it wrong..I do stealth perception as opposed rolls. ever thought about rolling all six die together and giving one colour to attack and one to defence. I recently set up 1/6 dudes in the bush and did this. I basically rolled all the required dice at once for an attack/defence/damage and assigned a different coloured set of dice to each effect.
yes I have done this in the past for speed, during my solo play of Randos2Heroes and the coloured dice do help speed it up for sure. No I never noticed the need to declare your NEXT maneuver in 3e, though I never played that edition much.
I did't used to be so scatter brained but having 18 books all open on different pages with different sidebars and paragraphs marked with the rules I want has turned my brain into soup. But I wouldn't want it any other way!!! I LOVE GURPS!!!@@easygurps actually my main GURPS project is photocopying all teh side bars/ scattered rules, cutting out the parts I need and gluing them into my own custom rulebook. I've done a fire combat book this way, took the suppressive fire and fear check rules out of Tactical shooting, the stat lines for all the guns I use, a few other rules, tables that are relevant, hit locations from Phoenix Command actually too. I made made my own table for damage too summarising all the checks you have to make for knockdown/stun/KO/death etc at different levels of damage. Do you do this?
You know one thing I hate about GURPS? Vehicles. Sometimes you get a half page description of just one random vehicle> I want stat lines like guns. But I need all NATO and WP vehicles from 1980 to '89. Twilight 2000 was way better in that way. I really don't want to build every vehicle using their build rules.
The thing is, the combat is only fast because you are controlling all "players", basically thinking as one. If each character was a different person, might as well double the time for this fight. I love GURPS combat and I indeed think it's fast, but that's not the reason why THIS fight was fast.
Now you have a super pretty map, you really need proper painted miniatures. You're kind of half in theatre of the mind and half in a no imagination required video game. OR put old B&W maps on your TV.
The table with the animated maps looks really cool. Everybody should have one of those!
To deal with the main issue about slow combat. . . I'd ask these things : why do people care if the combat is slow? What do we gain from faster combat?
Do those people just hate combat, and want it to be over ASAP? Or is there some other reason why they want to get combat over with so quickly?
For me it would be how long i have to sort of wait for my turn a a player. if it takes 45 seconds or so to resolve an player's attack/action (not to mention the opponent's attacks) , I am staking dice for 5 minutes with a medium party . sure i can plan during that, but a bulk of the table is idle.
i am not defending "speed at all costs", just a reason for keeping combat moving as swiftly as possible.
also, love the table! and for the walk through!
@@twitchew : that is a good point. Although I suppose a part of that issue is how much one cares that a bulk of the table is idle.
Sitting there idle is not a big deal for me. . . For example, even if I'm not playing the mage, I can take some interest in his attempt to cast a fireball. Maybe that is also why I'm happy to watch a lot of "Let's Play" videos on TH-cam . But I do understand that not everybody is like me. So it makes sense that the idle table situation might be a problem for many players.
I did run a GURPS game last night with players that did not know the rules. It was fast and fun. The key was that I'm very familiar with the rules and could tell them what options they have and also did all the math for them. Also I created the characters for them. In case I would have started the session with character creation and by explaining the rules to them (esp. fighting options) they would not have given GURPS a try. So IMO it is really important to not overwhelm new players with all the options. Overtime they will start to look up and learn rules by themselves.
This is tge perfect answer I think, and how I tend to lean as well, though I gave not actually introduced new players in years.
Good job. I think that illustrated the point well. But shouldn’t the basilisk have been at half dodge and move for having just 1 hp left?
I think that when people say it is too slow, they really mean they hate that they can succeed on a hit and then have nothing happen because of defense rolls. Because GURPs is definately not slower than 5e at mid/high level and faster than Pathfinder for sure. I think it is great because it allows for active defense but people are used to the feeling of "hitting" a lot. I try to tell them they are really not doing anything other than ablating hit points but that is the game design; giving players the sense of accomplishment even if it doesn't do anything. In GURPS hits are meaningful. So it is just a different "feeling" but not really combat length.
if they really wanted to hit and stop the ennemies from defending they would learn how to use feint and deceptive attack
@@Weirdguy6 basically either spend two or more rounds for an attack, or give yourself big -2/-4 and risk missing entirely without them defending and forget about targeting anything other than torso. Sounds fun, i guess.
@@TheStrangerQ you could evaluate for 3 turns so +3 to hit, feint so lets say the enemy gets -1 to defend, deceptive attack -2 to defend and -4 to hit plus all out attack +4 to hit and the enemy is at -3 to defend or more if feint works well or if you go heavier on the deceptive one clean deceptive slice through the neck is all you need
@@TheStrangerQ more like spend 6 turns crafting a single blow that will kill the guy in front of you instead of swinging your sword like a madman
@@Weirdguy6 but if you want to play unarmed fighter, well, you suck, if you don't want to grapple, and you hit like a wet noodle, or for zero damage. Also, yes, I know all of this and it sounds tedious as hell.
GURPS, once understood, is a lot of fun as you say. To answer your question, NO this wasn't too long when you factor in the tension mounting. Although I had to laugh at the wizard going all in for that last Fireball, then completely wiffing! But that is a strong example of why these games are so much fun. I personally love the 1 second round and find it makes combat much more realistic. Keep up the great work!
I'm late in commenting but nice job in showing how GURPS combat can be fun, fast paced and exciting...
other have probably pointed out a number of rules mistakes... like 4 always being a crit and some other small oversights...
awesome map and table... I'm planning to build a screen-table as well ... looks great!
Love these videos, I find them so relaxing. I'm currently in love with GURPS although playing a campaingnwith 2nd edition (the most readily available here in Brazil). Keep up the great work and boy do envy that table :P
Thank you so much and thanks for watching!
2nd Ed? Respect.
Initial tally was 12 turns with 8 of them in actual combat. The fight started a few minutes in so the total run time is about 30 minutes. That's 2.5 minutes each turn or 30 seconds for each of the 5 participants.
Most fights I've had are about 7-9 combat turns so this is all about right.
Most of the reason people say combat takes too long is because of the players not knowing or deciding on what to do rather than the game itself requiring so many rolls. If everyone is on their game and not hiding with their nose in a book or off in the bathroom then things move pretty quick.
Remember, no matter what game it is as soon as you finish your round start thinking about what you will do next round.
I enjoyed the suspense created in this battle
The basilisk fails his perception check due to the range penalties on it. (range penalties are really bitchy in GURPS) (Basic p550. Penalty for range 21-30 yds is -7. Even if range penalties for perception arent as severe as they are for ranged attacks it should at least be a -1)
Spear guy- a 3 or 4 is always a hit and a critical, regardless of skill. (Basic p381)
The rogues' knife- A high quality weapon is a good way to help your damage output when a character can afford one. Also, he could use an all-out attack with the +2 damage option to enable possible penetration of the DR.
I ran a Shadowrun adventure last year which had a fight with a Basilisk. As I am not a fan of the Shadowrun's own ruleset, I used Savage Worlds. However, after watching this, I think GURPS would actually be a better fit. I'll have to see if I can run the same adventure to another group, this time with GURPS. Thanks for the video!
Ob yeah I used to enjoy Shadowrun once in awhile way back in the 90s but now I actually use GURPS for any cyberpunk genre game I run. The gun combat is way more fun I think. Thanks for watching!
Not slow, definitely not boring, but I also enjoy GURPS. ❤
Having players who know what they want to do on their turn, and do it without looking stuff up in a book makes the turns go a lot more smoothly in any system.
Cheers!
Well said!
Really pumping the content. !
Thanks for this! I love it. Your channel is truly inspirational!
Thanks for the kind words and thanks for watching!
I'd love to see more of stuff just like this.
you got it! more to come.
wish i could find a group to play me some Gurps.. its the first rpg game i ever played with 30 years ago! Its hard to find players for it though..
Wow thats cool GURPS was your first game.
What this really illustrates is why you should always push your primary skills higher than you think you need. If any of the Heroes had a 15 they’d get their hit rate up to 62% even while averting their eyes, far better than the 25% shots they had to rely on here.
honstly. I feel like D&D would have taken twice as long for the same combat. Or same-ish at best. Additionally, since every turn is very fast (1 second in game does not allow for many actions to do which is a good thing) turns rotate pretty quickly.
I totally agree, I see alot of D&d player decision paralysis due to so many actions and options to string together per turn. Thanks for watching
Was the -4 attack skill penalty for avoiding the basilisk's gaze too much? They could still see the body and legs just fine. It's not actually invisible. Maybe -1 attack penalty would suffice, but dodging a bite attack would also require a penalty because they can't really track the head safely.
I just went with the -4 for "not being able to SEE the target, but knowing it's position within 1y" modifier as seen in back of GURPS Campaigns. One could complicate it and split hairs on what modifiers to use in each of these turns/situations all day long thanks to GURPS plethora of modifiers, but best to keep things simple and keep it moving. Invariably some rules nerd will chime in with some obscure modifier/ability buried deep in some source book like Martial Arts but this example was meant to keep it fairly basic.
Damn you just got called a rules nerd
What about an academic/lore roll to know if they have to avert their eyes in the face of a baselisk?
sure that would work in game, or maybe even just a flat IQ roll even? whatever suits you
What basilisk is this? The GURPS basilisk (p. B460) doesn't chomp; it uses a Toxic Attack as a Malediction. If it did bite with its (blunt) teeth, its ST 2 guarantees that it will never do any damage. It also has no DR.
That basalisk is useless. I used EnragedEggPlants D&D converted Basalisk since i wanted a close approximation to the D&D version for better comparison of the how the 2 systems playout (see my D&D basalisk fight video)
@@easygurps It's not useless; it's just not a D&D basilisk. It more closely resembles a basilisk of folklore. But I can see why you changed it if you're going for a D&D comparison. (Alas that GURPS always needs to be compared to D&D!)
Why did the Rogue/Thief move to basilisk side instead of staying to the rear. Could have taken All Out Attack for +1 damage. Also the Rogue should probably have used short sword or at least have taken striking damage for added on ST attribute. Did the wizard get to aim for the fireball missile spell?
I do want to point out that, in the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy boxed set, Thief PCs have a special advantage that they can take that pumps their Striking ST for backstab attacks. If he was using that version of GURPS the Thief would've been more effective.
"-3 coz of the size of the thing" huh? shouldn't that be plus 3?
yep it should be +3
I believe it was due to +1 for sm and -4 for averting eyes, so -3 total.
Are you playing on a horizontal Tee Vee?
Yeppers, it's my game table. Here's the video of me building it th-cam.com/video/jv5i_xeqFpk/w-d-xo.html
"Was it too slow?" No, but my wrist gets sore in GURPS from throwing so many dice, like I said I like to roll like 9D+ damage dice in all difference colours all in one throw so I have all the numbers for a complete resolution of an attack. I wouldn't want to take out the many rolls in GURPS, it's far superior to a lot of modern games where you might not even roll any dice for a whole session.
Did you know in GURPS 3E which I play combatants have to carry our their action AND DECLARE their NEXT ACTION at the end of their turn?!?!?! After playing GURPS regularly for two years I have only just noticed this. This will drastically change combat for me! Sorry you did IQ rolls for averting eyes. Do 4E have same rule for declaring next action? The Will rolls every coupla rounds is a cool imposition. GMs rules! And I quoteth from the book of 3E p95, para 2! "Your turn starts when you choose a maneuver and ends when you choose your next maneuver !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I'm doing it wrong..I do stealth perception as opposed rolls. ever thought about rolling all six die together and giving one colour to attack and one to defence. I recently set up 1/6 dudes in the bush and did this. I basically rolled all the required dice at once for an attack/defence/damage and assigned a different coloured set of dice to each effect.
yes I have done this in the past for speed, during my solo play of Randos2Heroes and the coloured dice do help speed it up for sure. No I never noticed the need to declare your NEXT maneuver in 3e, though I never played that edition much.
I did't used to be so scatter brained but having 18 books all open on different pages with different sidebars and paragraphs marked with the rules I want has turned my brain into soup. But I wouldn't want it any other way!!! I LOVE GURPS!!!@@easygurps actually my main GURPS project is photocopying all teh side bars/ scattered rules, cutting out the parts I need and gluing them into my own custom rulebook. I've done a fire combat book this way, took the suppressive fire and fear check rules out of Tactical shooting, the stat lines for all the guns I use, a few other rules, tables that are relevant, hit locations from Phoenix Command actually too. I made made my own table for damage too summarising all the checks you have to make for knockdown/stun/KO/death etc at different levels of damage. Do you do this?
You know one thing I hate about GURPS? Vehicles. Sometimes you get a half page description of just one random vehicle> I want stat lines like guns. But I need all NATO and WP vehicles from 1980 to '89. Twilight 2000 was way better in that way. I really don't want to build every vehicle using their build rules.
The thing is, the combat is only fast because you are controlling all "players", basically thinking as one. If each character was a different person, might as well double the time for this fight. I love GURPS combat and I indeed think it's fast, but that's not the reason why THIS fight was fast.
Agree
Compared to what? 8-P
Here's a neat solution: just fight in real life. Much faster.
The issue is that not everyone can afford buying a basilisk.
Now you have a super pretty map, you really need proper painted miniatures. You're kind of half in theatre of the mind and half in a no imagination required video game. OR put old B&W maps on your TV.