If you know and understand the Golden Ratio then with practise your eye sees the composition automatically. Even when out and about and not taking photographs I my mind registers these rules.
Many thanks for this walkthrough and examples. Often those compositional rules become intuitive as appealing to the eye when shooting. Love those 21mm images. Thanks for sharing.
Nothing wrong with cropping or converting a colour image to B&W for that matter, this is why we use tools such as Lightroom and Photoshop. Capturing that moment in time with the push of a button is only part of the creative process of being a photographer ( artist ) and creating an image with emotion.
I agree. Also, if something happens on the other side of the street and it’s potentially a good picture but I only have a 21mm on the camera, do I take the shot and crop it later or miss out on the photo altogether because I adhere to some stupid unwritten rule in photography?
I tend to think that people who constantly have those sorts of comments are mostly trying to convince themselves that they are so good, anything better than their average pictures need heavy editing. And as you say, who cares. The final product is what matter. I am curious to know if some painters are being accused of using ready made colors instead of shading everything from the bases ;).
I feel a lot of "in camera" composition comes from training your eye and gaining a "feel" for the composition technique. When you are cropping your photos in post, you can always make your photo "fit" a composition and this ultimate helps you train your eye and gain that feel...but as many photographers will tell you, "you can'y polish a turd". Ultimately, as you gain more experience, you'll be able to crop more in camera and less in post.
Your channel is great! I find it very educational. I’m curious if you are consciously considering these compositional tools while you are shooting or if it’s something that’s became intuitive over the years? I’m about 5 years into studying street photography and I am nowhere near sharp enough to consciously construct an image this way 😅
Thanks Liam. When I first started taking photos for a living back in 1988, yes, I would consciously look for patterns and compositional form within an image. I had to, as I was primarily a studio portrait photographer and had to get things right in the camera. I learned a lot about composition in portraiture and that held me in good stead for the rest of my career. I don’t consciously think about composition now. It is second nature to me. Sarah grew up on movies and art and her eye reflects this. Again, it’s very natural for her, she sees a photo she like and presses the shutter. I don’t think she conforms as much to the classical notion of composition as much as I do. Hers is more cinematic.
I always prefer the Tools of composition rather than rule and there are many. The shot at 6.06, if you think about gestalt theory, you could place her anywhere in the frame and you would look at her (providing the lighting stays the same, her bright, background dark. The one at 4.19I saw the woman on the left first, then the other woman and then the man, tool of odds maybe? Shot at 2.57, I sw the dog first, light against dark, then the diagonal dog to boy, if you had cropped tighter, square even, the diagonal would still work, mind you I do like the guy kicking the youth out of the shop. But as you said we see things different ways.
I was brought up on classical compositional theory so I tend to look at things in those terms. I think it’s fantastic that others see things differently. It makes me look again and that’s all good.
Cropping is part of editing sometimes you do it and other times not, my cameras native ratio is 3:2 if i want a square ratio then i have to crop. Its ridiculous and its not cheating.
Do you think it's easier to use the golden spiral the wider you go? I feel like I tend to see more opportunities when I'm shooting 28 or 24, and my 35 and 50 work is more rule of thirds and golden ratio.
Does it really matter whether or not the final image is as it was framed when the photo was taken? Surely the final image should just stand by itself and the route to the image shouldn't matter (maybe I'd except the use of AI to add elements that weren't originally there, for now..)
Yes. I agree. William Klein’s street style was based on cropping. That’s why a lot of his images are so grainy. The famous image by Elliott Erwitt of a chihuahua and some human legs is a 35mm crop from a 6x6cm negative. I’ve sat with Don McCullin editing his images, and he regularly asked for the images to be cropped.
@@WalkLikeAlice Excuse my English translated with Google, even without disturbing great photographers, I am fully convinced that the message and beauty of a photo cannot be diminished by a crop, a long exposure or a black and white development and so on. A big thank you for your videos
Nice work, again. I don't tend to crop images much, mostly to straighten up the horizon, etc. However, the suggestion of cheating is all a bit ridiculous to me. The important thing, to me, is that the image fits with your vision of the scene at the time. Sometimes things happen too fast, you have a 35mm lens when you needed a 50mm, etc., so what you have and what you saw don't always align. Cropping is OK in my books as long as the image is still based on the reality of the moment. Removal of people, changing skies, is not something I would ever personally do - as that would be cheating for me, stopping the photograph being a documentation of an actual lived moment.
Thanks for this, Jeff. Very interesting. A couple of questions : 1. Are these tools also available in Camera Raw ? 2. What is the scientific basis for these rules? Are we sure that everyone views an image the same? Thanks
Not speaking on Jeff's behalf, but to answer your 2nd question, the rule of thirds is more of a series of techniques rather than rules. Sometimes scenes can be very visually busy and as a viewer, it can be difficult to know what to look at first. By using the rule of thirds, you're guiding the viewer to all the points of interest within the frame.
@@TheArtofLight I'm still curious to know where these rules or guides came from. They seem quite arbitrary compared to eg layering, use of contrast, use of colour. I'm in no way saying they don't work or they're not important I just like to know why we adhere to certain rules and conventions. Meanwhile I've found the overlays are in Photoshop under the grid icon when you use the crop tool.
@@johnwaine56 For me, rules that help you to understand why something is structured in a certain way are invaluable. It's like learning to play an instrument. You don't need to know notes, scales and chords, but it helps to make sense of why something sounds like it does. It's the same in photography. If you understand the rules/techniques it makes understanding why one photo works and another doesn't, a lot easier.
Cropping is not wrong (or for that matter cheating) by itself. Context matters. Say I am a reporter telling a story. If I twist or manipulate that story by cropping. (say a bunch of people are protesting and my crop puts a few people out of frame) then I am wrong. But what if the photo has a larger story little to do with the protagonist. A bigger cause, even entertainment perhaps. Nothing wrong with a crop then
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Excellent. The use of the original crops in the video shows how instinctive composition has become for both of you.
Thanks Michael
If you know and understand the Golden Ratio then with practise your eye sees the composition automatically. Even when out and about and not taking photographs I my mind registers these rules.
Exactly!!
The same. I even drive my wife nuts explaining 😂😂😂
Many thanks for this walkthrough and examples. Often those compositional rules become intuitive as appealing to the eye when shooting. Love those 21mm images. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching.
you nail it !
Thanks. Always enjoy your videos.
Thank you
Hi dude learned something new today thank you so much! Thank you youtube for a genuine recommendation after a decade :D
🙏🙏
Nothing wrong with cropping or converting a colour image to B&W for that matter, this is why we use tools such as Lightroom and Photoshop. Capturing that moment in time with the push of a button is only part of the creative process of being a photographer ( artist ) and creating an image with emotion.
I agree. Also, if something happens on the other side of the street and it’s potentially a good picture but I only have a 21mm on the camera, do I take the shot and crop it later or miss out on the photo altogether because I adhere to some stupid unwritten rule in photography?
I found the golden ration video! Thanks so much for sharing so insightful!
Good stuff!!
I could care les if cropping were used to creat photos let alone how you use them for these instructions.
I tend to think that people who constantly have those sorts of comments are mostly trying to convince themselves that they are so good, anything better than their average pictures need heavy editing.
And as you say, who cares. The final product is what matter.
I am curious to know if some painters are being accused of using ready made colors instead of shading everything from the bases ;).
@@chrismarois4349❤😊❤
I feel a lot of "in camera" composition comes from training your eye and gaining a "feel" for the composition technique. When you are cropping your photos in post, you can always make your photo "fit" a composition and this ultimate helps you train your eye and gain that feel...but as many photographers will tell you, "you can'y polish a turd". Ultimately, as you gain more experience, you'll be able to crop more in camera and less in post.
👍
Your channel is great! I find it very educational.
I’m curious if you are consciously considering these compositional tools while you are shooting or if it’s something that’s became intuitive over the years?
I’m about 5 years into studying street photography and I am nowhere near sharp enough to consciously construct an image this way 😅
Thanks Liam. When I first started taking photos for a living back in 1988, yes, I would consciously look for patterns and compositional form within an image. I had to, as I was primarily a studio portrait photographer and had to get things right in the camera. I learned a lot about composition in portraiture and that held me in good stead for the rest of my career. I don’t consciously think about composition now. It is second nature to me. Sarah grew up on movies and art and her eye reflects this. Again, it’s very natural for her, she sees a photo she like and presses the shutter. I don’t think she conforms as much to the classical notion of composition as much as I do. Hers is more cinematic.
@@WalkLikeAlice thanks! I honestly hoped you’d say that. It gives me hope.
I always prefer the Tools of composition rather than rule and there are many. The shot at 6.06, if you think about gestalt theory, you could place her anywhere in the frame and you would look at her (providing the lighting stays the same, her bright, background dark. The one at 4.19I saw the woman on the left first, then the other woman and then the man, tool of odds maybe? Shot at 2.57, I sw the dog first, light against dark, then the diagonal dog to boy, if you had cropped tighter, square even, the diagonal would still work, mind you I do like the guy kicking the youth out of the shop. But as you said we see things different ways.
I was brought up on classical compositional theory so I tend to look at things in those terms. I think it’s fantastic that others see things differently. It makes me look again and that’s all good.
Cropping is part of editing sometimes you do it and other times not, my cameras native ratio is 3:2 if i want a square ratio then i have to crop. Its ridiculous and its not cheating.
I agree but some people just have to express an ill-informed opinion for whatever reason.
Do you think it's easier to use the golden spiral the wider you go? I feel like I tend to see more opportunities when I'm shooting 28 or 24, and my 35 and 50 work is more rule of thirds and golden ratio.
Yes. I do. There’s something about having that sense of space that lends itself to it.
If your prepared to put the time and effort in. These things become 2nd nature. But if you cant be bothered too. No biggy thats what editing is 😁
Does it really matter whether or not the final image is as it was framed when the photo was taken? Surely the final image should just stand by itself and the route to the image shouldn't matter (maybe I'd except the use of AI to add elements that weren't originally there, for now..)
Yes. I agree. William Klein’s street style was based on cropping. That’s why a lot of his images are so grainy. The famous image by Elliott Erwitt of a chihuahua and some human legs is a 35mm crop from a 6x6cm negative. I’ve sat with Don McCullin editing his images, and he regularly asked for the images to be cropped.
@@WalkLikeAlice Excuse my English translated with Google, even without disturbing great photographers, I am fully convinced that the message and beauty of a photo cannot be diminished by a crop, a long exposure or a black and white development and so on. A big thank you for your videos
Nice work, again. I don't tend to crop images much, mostly to straighten up the horizon, etc. However, the suggestion of cheating is all a bit ridiculous to me. The important thing, to me, is that the image fits with your vision of the scene at the time. Sometimes things happen too fast, you have a 35mm lens when you needed a 50mm, etc., so what you have and what you saw don't always align. Cropping is OK in my books as long as the image is still based on the reality of the moment. Removal of people, changing skies, is not something I would ever personally do - as that would be cheating for me, stopping the photograph being a documentation of an actual lived moment.
Thank Mark. It’s a bit ridiculous to me too. But people have their reasons.
I don't consciously think of any so-called rules when composing my photos. However when I look at them LR I find that they "accidentally" fit anyway.
We call that “visual literacy”. We don’t consciously think of the rules either when shooting.
Thanks for this, Jeff. Very interesting. A couple of questions :
1. Are these tools also available in Camera Raw ?
2. What is the scientific basis for these rules? Are we sure that everyone views an image the same?
Thanks
1. I think so. But don’t quote me on it.
2. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_sequence
Everyone views things differently. That’s how it should be.
Not speaking on Jeff's behalf, but to answer your 2nd question, the rule of thirds is more of a series of techniques rather than rules. Sometimes scenes can be very visually busy and as a viewer, it can be difficult to know what to look at first. By using the rule of thirds, you're guiding the viewer to all the points of interest within the frame.
@@TheArtofLight I'm still curious to know where these rules or guides came from. They seem quite arbitrary compared to eg layering, use of contrast, use of colour. I'm in no way saying they don't work or they're not important I just like to know why we adhere to certain rules and conventions.
Meanwhile I've found the overlays are in Photoshop under the grid icon when you use the crop tool.
@@johnwaine56 In short, the art of painting and painters. Composition is just another tool in the tool box that helps enhance a scene.
@@johnwaine56 For me, rules that help you to understand why something is structured in a certain way are invaluable. It's like learning to play an instrument. You don't need to know notes, scales and chords, but it helps to make sense of why something sounds like it does. It's the same in photography. If you understand the rules/techniques it makes understanding why one photo works and another doesn't, a lot easier.
Obviously if you use the grid in your camera, you can come very close to these different rules of thirds, golden ratio, etc.
We don’t have grids on our cameras, but i agree with you 100%.
Merci pour ces vidéos très didactiques
J’utilise la grille sur l’écran de mon X100v … et recadre un peu après si cela me semble nécessaire …
Cropping is not wrong (or for that matter cheating) by itself. Context matters. Say I am a reporter telling a story. If I twist or manipulate that story by cropping. (say a bunch of people are protesting and my crop puts a few people out of frame) then I am wrong. But what if the photo has a larger story little to do with the protagonist. A bigger cause, even entertainment perhaps. Nothing wrong with a crop then
Photojournalism is a different thing altogether.