I've seen her alive and she sounds very similar to me. Not saying that she doesn't clean it up for Post-production or whatever. But she really is an amazing singer. The whole band is amazing in my opinion.
Oh, she's great live for sure but there are definitely doubled backing vocals, whispers, pitch correction and so on, after the fact here. But this is common nowadays. Even full live concerts from bands are pitch corrected, some vocals actually added or redone in the studio and added to the finished audio. Sebastian Bach does this in a really obvious way live with his high notes as his high register is very weak and his super high register is nonexistent.
The Charismatic Voice does a lot of investigation into how screaming and other distorted vocals work. She's even worked with scientists studying the voice and had them use a scope to view Will Ramos' vocal chords while he's making some of his extreme sounds. She also has a great interview with Tatiana.
I went down a Tatiana rabbit hole today starting with the Fairy Voice Mother spitting out her tea in shock (and then nailing imitating her), The Daily Doug's analysis and interviews with The Charismatic Voice and Beth Roars.
The human being’s ability to dance around perfection, in this case pitch and rhythm, is the very source of the beauty and meaning in the music. It is quite literally the imperfections that create the goosebumps.
So you like punk music instead of classic music I get it. No I'm not. If you filter to hard yes but as long as you dont the voice is just another instrument and Jinjer doing this super good.
@@m8pwa_ I hear you but here’s the thing. Once you start tweaking it’s like plastic surgery. You think you’ll just get a little tuck on the jawline and before you know it you’re a freakshow.
I agree. Like looks in beauty it is the imperfections that are where the character is. A singer from back in the day who had unique imperfect but likely still edited was Rod Stewart or Louis Armstrong Both families.
I'm glad you explained how this is achieved. It makes a lot of sense and now I can identify what I was hearing. I love her voice. She's a very beautiful person as well as a beautiful and beastly vocalist. She's an amazing talent and her band is also amazing.
@DS-hs3qp No, this isn't meant to be entirely live according to what they said about it when it was originally released. This was also a long time ago, and her technique has gotten a lot better. I would check out some of their live in Kiev concert stuff like Pit of Consciousness or On the Top. They've really been able to grow as a band since this.
@@DS-hs3qp she isn't pitch corrected live, only on a few official live videos. For example, i think that their concert at hellfest 2021, which you can find on youtube, was pitch corrected, but hellfest 2022 was not, because you can clearly hear wrong notes. But she is still a very talented singer
Entering into the live scene, watching many "live" sessions have made me believe less in if I can even sing or not, but I researched a lot into how most of these live sessions go through heavy post-production, many tuned vocals, sometimes even replaced, and watching this video just opened my eyes more, especially the tuner you're using. Loved it, and it just makes me more confident about not aiming for perfection, but just feel it. Perfection is a myth sold to everyone online, these things just set such unrealistic standards that it's a bad thing for a lot of upcoming artists. You're doing god's work. Not saying there are exceptional vocalists out there, and there are many who can almost be pitch perfect, but the live sessions are just too unrealistic sometimes. PS - What you hear live can be very different, cause the room absorbs a lot of imperfections, but if you hear the same through phone, you can hear it, until it's processed or corrected, it just won't sound as good. (Exceptions there of course)
She’s the first female vocalist that I ever heard performing harsh vocals. I really enjoy her regular singing voice, and the harsh vocals punctuate the emotion. It makes more sense when you understand the subject matter. It’s definitely an acquired taste, but this group is talented. They put on a good live show.
When you listen to her singing Pisces live then you can hear the difference in pitch. She said in an interview that this is not her favorite song. She is really good live, but she seems also not afraid to let us hear some flaws when she does not hit the right tone, .... so she is forgiven the pitch correction 😀
@@russellward4624 Yep that is popular but a lot of reactors say, "I needed to see a LIVE performance by Jinjer because I want to see what they really sound like on stage" and the Waken 2019 version of Perennial is a popular go to.
This was made to showcase the band's new drummer Vlad. So they're basically playing to their record from their album and they mixed in Tati's vocals from that album as well to fill it out. Even though the instruments were all live.
Lead guitar was doubled too because they had 2 guitarists still when they first recorded Pisces. There is an interview where they pull back the curtain on this session. They weren't the ones that threw the "live session" tag on it. Napalm records was.
Some call it 'growling' while others call it 'false chord', which is the technical term. So that's when you go very low and add vocal distortion, like you described. Used a lot in Death and Doom Metal music (and many more). At the end she goes from using False Chord to 'Fry Scream'. Very popular in Black Metal etc. With False Chord you exhale a lot of air while going very deep. With Fry Scream you add more pressure to your exhaling while tightening your vocal muscles. This uses way less air and with a little practice will let you hold a 'note' for 20 seconds quite easily. Some can even hold it for more than 60 seconds, which is quite banans. However, be careful while practicing these techniques and do it slowly and warm up beforehand. Thanks for the video.
Fairy Voice Mother does an excellent demonstration of the false cord technique that Tati probably uses. A good example of Jinjer performing live is their Wacken performance of Perennial. I love this band, in case you couldn’t tell. 😅
I think a lot of people just don't understand the harsh vocal technique as well as how it's used as expression. I'm sure they'd all say Perennial Live @ Wacken is pitch-corrected and fake somehow, too!
Explanations: This is mostly the audio from the album version. The video was filmed during a live session rehearsal with their new drummer and they decided to make the video to introduce him. Their sound engineer took the drums of Vlad to replace the original drums in the mix and made just a few changes in the original mix (especially a double-layered voice at the end that was removed). So yeah, it's post-produced. It's the album version remixed with a new drum recorded live, over a video of a live session. :)
They always play live with backing tracks. I think most of them are tracks actually from the albums. During a tour after the lockdowns opened up, Vlad tested positive for 'Rona mid-tour, so they just piped in his drum parts from Mr. Laptop in addition to the backing tracks for a few shows instead of cancelling.
In the screaming parts you can hear two voices, one in higher frequencies (the original voice buried in the mix) and a lower pitched one an octave lower with a pedal/effect. You can hear this better at the end of the song.
Okay so lets clarify the terms here. A "live session" is not a live performance. Prior to the early 1970s everyone did live sessions because there waren't enough tracks to record a song instrument by instrument. Now live sessions are used to catch the magic of a band playing their base parts together in a room. A live session is where you start a recording not where you end one. You don't play the song and that is it. Rather than starting the recording with drums or bass or something else by itself you start with the base parts of the band and then build on it the way every other recording is done. That includes double tracking vocals, harmonies, second guitar parts or even someone who was plugged in direct where they aren't bleeding into other insturments spendng a couple hours later re-doing their part. It is then mixed down the way all other records are done. That is what the industry has been calling a "live session" for decades. It is not like a multitrack recording done at a concert. By live concert recording we aren't talking about the guy sitting in the audience with a cheap video cam kind of recording but a genuine multitrack recording with the addition of mics facing the audience. To a limited extent those recordings can be "fixed" in mixdown as well. Which brings up the reason pitch is corrected to the granular extent it is in vocals. Guitar players, bass players, keyboard players, and to some extent drummers all live in a world of technology where they are in a constant search for the perfect tone. Over the years that has gotten ridiculously detailed as technology has marched on but vocalists have their voice period as they have since the beiginning of time. The technology has raised the listening and quality standards for music up to a high level but again vocalists have only the same instrument they have always had. The fact that Max Morton Jinjer's producer has to spot correct lines here and there so that MOST people including professionals can't hear it doesn't faze me even a little as a fan or as a former professional misician who played drums and sang. Especially since there isn't going to be a singer you hear that WON'T have that treatment on their vocals. People can make the claim that "oh I don't mind if the singer is a little off here and there it's natural" but if you really heard it I guarantee in contrast to the perfect guitars and everything else you wouldn't like it. I am not going to hold Tatiana to an impossible standard. With all due respect because in your own words the vocal is beyond what a singer can physically do, doing this thing where you (you aren't the only one I've seen do it) "catch" a singer being pitch corrected isn't very honest. If it was one singer being accused of doing something unethical nobody else did it would be one thing but it isn't. There is no crutch here and this isn't billed as a live performance. They didn't perform it in front of an audience or live stream it. They started with the base tracks and did the same thing every other band does to build it. However your analysis makes it sound like they are trying to lie to people. There are amazing live on stage performances out there of her and there are some that aren't so good but so what? That's literally descibing every singer that's ever existed. Singers can only do so many takes of a song, the instruments can plug in direct and redo their parts later she can't in this situation. Not so with a vocalists who's voice is now in the mics of every other insturment using mics (drums). Even if it's a traditional instrument by instrument recording a guitar player can still pysically do more takes of their part than a vocalist can. Studio time is expensive and so often it's easier to replace a drum with a sample or pitch correct a vocal than bring back the artists for another take or make them stay past their physical limits. None of the non-technical people reading this are going to understand all this but they shouldn't have to. You aren't helping them by getting the "lab equipment" out to catch them doing something that isn't going to seem right by their standards and make it look like Tatiana is relying on something other singers don't have to. She isn't.
Fil is analysing specific performances/videos that people have sent him and asked a question about. He's not looking through YT for singers that he can catch out. He's not picking the videos at all. I may be wrong, but I think you're saying that it's okay to use pitch correction for a recording, and that it doesn't bother you if that's done, because it's done for almost every singer. But what about live performances? Most of the pitch corrected performances that Fil has looked at have been "live", and there have been a lot of them...go take a look at his video playlist. A live vocal that is pitch corrected, then re-released with no information on the video stating that the vocals have been manipulated is a dishonest video. And if everyone in the music industry thinks pitch correction is no big deal, then why not be open and honest about it when it's been applied (sometimes VERY heavy handedly) to a live performance?
@@Terri_MacKay There are plenty of ways to analyze music that doesn't include a connotation that the wool is being pulled over everyone's eyes. Just misrepresenting the difference between a live session and a live performance is enough but pulling out a technical analysis of the pitch of the vocal when at this point it's no different than any other singer and the changes are even so slight most of the time it gets nitpicky isn't providing a service to anyone.
@@coder4liberty In his videos, he's addressing specific questions that have been asked about specific videos. If one of the questions is, "has this been pitch corrected", should he say "no"? Or simply not address the question at all? And you have to accept the fact that not everyone will agree with you. While you are perfectly fine with pitch correction being used, not everyone is. And it's not always used "ever so slightly". I don't think anyone would have a problem with 2 or 3 notes in a song being tweaked, but when it's the entire song (which we have seen here many times), then it's a bit much. Now we're left with, why? 1. Is the person that bad a singer that entire songs need to be pitch corrected to make them listenable? 2. If their voice is that bad, how do they have a career as a singer? 3. If they're able to perform their songs live (when they only get one chance per show to get it right), are they really singing that badly in the studio that the pitch correction has to be really heavy handed? All those "imperfections" that they're pitch correcting is where the emotion is in songs, it's where a singer's individuality is.
@@Terri_MacKay My answer would be that virtually all have some degree of pitch correction and leave it at that. I am well aware that some singers need it as a crutch but it's clear from the reputation of "autotune" that nothing can be gained by perpetuating the misinformation that whenever you see it it's being used to make up for a lack of talent. That's the resut of giving a non-technical person a technical answer with graphs and charts they can't hope to interpret properly. My comments come from having experience in this field. I'm not saying it isn't a big deal because I can personally tolerate it I'm saying when virtually every single singer in a lead role gets pitch adjusted to one extent or another often without their consultation because of current listening standards it isn't logical to single singers out and dedicate an entire video to how they are pitch corrected. No kidding pretty much all of them are. All it does is give non-technical viewers a sqewed view of the technique and the singer. Sometimes it creates emotion. Sometimes on the backdrop of heavily produced guitars, keyboards and drums it sounds out of place. Just because you have that context that doesn't mean the majority of music fans would. Every single instrument is tweaked to the maxiumum the technology will alow. The voice is no different.
There is a thrill in seeing a band or musician live that one doesn’t always get from a recording, they are 2 different experiences. Granted some are quite good at recreating the studio sound but experiencing a variation from the original is one of the joys of a live performance.
@@morbidmanmusic I disagree, for the same reason Fil gave… Autotune live is risky. A singer can get away with it if they’re consistently close to the correct pitch, but that’s not a given. Singers’ voices fatigue the longer the show goes, and the good ones know how to compensate for that to still sound good. But Autotune is unforgiving… if you get just a little too far from your intended pitch, it will yank it in an unnatural way either to the pitch you were going for, or worse an out of key note above or below the correct one.
Most metal screaming is much louder than most singing. Belting comes close but belted screams are still typically louder. You can make the scream noises quiet but it would sound quite weak and fake. The emotion is the important part of screaming. And now that it has become popularized you are finding a lot of metal vocalists sound more mechanical.
A couple notes I’d add as I’m watching…the original video description is quite clear that this was “produced up” from “live” - and was intended as an introduction to their new (at the time) drummer, Vlad. There are indeed backing tracks involved, but one major difference between this recording and what was released on the King Of Everything album is the middle guitar bridge. It’s an acoustic guitar on the album, but Roman plays the line on the electric in this video.
I'll provide a bit more. The vocal track is from the original recording with this performance layered on. It is production level. The band is overall the live part, but they've never hid the fact this isn't a purely 'live session' with no production. It was a one off to introduce Vlad, as was mentioned. It just blew up with reactors. Absolutely spot on analysis of my favorite band.
@@davejohnston2197 Yeah, it's ridiculous how many comments are "yeah I knew they couldn't do that Live, it didn't sound like it was really Live, etc,". It's almost like no one READ the description in the Video that it's a mixed version, partially from recordings in that session. The quote in the description of that video... "I believe we had this idea to record a new version of “Pisces” when we first rehearsed the song with Vlad Ulasevich as a new drummer. His drumming makes the song sound really different. So we finally had some free time last winter, we went to Istok studio in Kiev, did a live recording and shooting, then added over some extra lines, like a few backing vocals and guitars, then Max from Morton Studio made this new magnificent version of mixing and here we are - Pisces video. I hope you will enjoy it!" Directed by Oleg Rooz Really even more disappointed that this channel clearly didn't read it either, as he keep referring to it like it was falsely promoted as a Live performance.
@@RokNDragon the vocal track is taken from the studio recording in full, the only thing changed is the growling is removed from the clean belted notes at the end. I am a huge Jinjer fan BTW so I don't have an agenda, you can load up both tracks in a DAW and compare them yourself.
@@Qyngali My only issue with this is that its being talked about it like it's trying to deceive viewers. Multiple comments on this video talk about being disappointed, that a studio recorded, "performance style" video had audio mixing done. Implying that they think it means they only sound good in a studio, and "obviously" can't sound good live. Not all the comments, but a fair number of them. I've heard many of their live performances videos, they sound great live.
The problem here is the people that titled the video. “Live studio recording” is a bit of a misnomer. It’s obviously not live in a sense that would meet any common definition. That’s clearly apparent. “Studio” indicates that it was mixed and mastered. That includes pitch correction in any modern studio.
Yes, this is certainly not a "live" performance we're seeing. I do recall Tatiana, in an interview, regretting that this was labeled as live, since it was kind of a new version of this song, since they had a new drummer, at this time. I was hoping to get a bit of commentary on the time signature changes, bass tapping, etc. But, maybe the plan was to focus on her voice, which generally steals the show. 😁
Thanks Fil! In fact, there is a lot in common between the rasp technique You use and Tatiana’s growl. You hear the note because all types of screams are based on the vocal folds. In this case, false folds, cartilages and the epiglottis (not always included) act as a filter, i.e. impart chaos to the sound waves that create the vocal folds (which simply cut the flow of exhaled air into equal parts at different speeds). And the sound will depend on the degree of compression of the larynx (twang), the position of the larynx, the degree of closure and compression of the vocal cords (chest sound, falsetto or even whistle) and the position of the jaw and tongue.
I've seen them live and they are excellent. Tatiana is great live as both a singer and front woman. I think you get a good impression of her singing voice from this, despite the pitch correction. She is entirely self taught; learnt the screaming technique by screaming into a pillow (true!).
But how can you say that? Her voice is pitch corrected so no it doesn’t sound like what she sounds like live. Again, why pitch correction she probably sounds incredibly without it.
Thank you! Very interesting. I really don't like this kind of music either, just like you, but you made the analysis very interesting. A good friend of mine likes this kind of music, and that's why I really appreciate your analysis of it.
Love this band...saw them 2016 thru 2020 probably 6 or7 time in small venues of like 50-100 people or even smaller. Great band great show..was cool to see them before the broke out and then after
I believe the technique is called "growling." I read this was actually the first time playing with the new drummer, who kills it btw, so it was more of a vibe session that was recorded "live".. but that Doesn't mean it wasn't run through processors after 🤷🏾♂️
I’m so glad you took a look at a “screamer” vocalist! As I’ve mentioned in the past, my adult son is a drummer in a heavy metal local band. I know that their screamer took vocal lessons so as not to hurt his throat and vocal cords. I wondered if they were on pitch. I have listened to many heavy metal screamers over these many years, both from local performers live, and from the more prominent professional’s recorded music, (Pantera, Korn, Hatebreed), as it is my son’s music of choice. To this day, that is what is playing in his car, although he does appreciate, classical music, jazz (as a drummer, he prefers “non-four/four” beats…he double pedals and does 32nd beats), Dave Mathew’s, and FRANK SINATRA! I was stunned that the screamer in the recording was the same female vocalist as in the rest of the performance! That girl has the scream down!
Some people say her harsh vocals sound "demonic". I've also heard it described at "the boss monster in a video game". What it reminds me of is a mountain lion; the kind you don't want to hear at midnight when you're camping in the mountains. I think there are natural sounds in our common background which we fear, either instinctually or culturally, through stories which make use of elements that have been symbolized that way.
Another observation. In the pre-recorded version, when Tatyana does the short belted part near the end, there is also scream vocal at the same time. This could easily have been done here given that there was vocal doubling at various points anyway. I'm assuming they chose not to do that so that it would sound more "live". Obviously everyone would know you can't belt and scream at the same time and whilst people also know you can't double your own vocal live, a doubled scream would be less obvious to many listeners. Interestingly, when it is performed live on stage Tatyana usually just does the scream and drops the belt.
Tracks live is common, heard alot of metal songs with screams mid song that continue and then they start sing before it's ended. Usually not my cup of tea but if it's not to often and for tasty added effect go for it, most bands have it in some sort of way to get a richer sound unless it's unplugged.
I saw them live last September and I can tell you that she can hit all the notes, belts, growls, and screams in a live show. Also, yes they use very subtle backing tracks that are usually only light synth for dramatic effect. That said... Folks see the words live session in the video title and assume a lot. The pure listener just enjoys the intimate setting of the studio and watching them play the instruments. Musicians get wrapped up in the fact that any post-production on the audio negates all of the live aspect. Engineers take it even further and start picking apart whether they hear a live effect, overdub, multi-tracking, voice correction, backing tracks, etc. So....the title says live session which is misleading to some. Something to note on this video is that this song is from a previous album with a different drummer. If you listen to the drums on the original studio version the drums are WAY different. (I'd even say they suck in my opinion.) This video is of the live session where they are re-recording the song with (and introducing) their new drummer, Vlad. Therefore the live session verbiage refers to the visual representation. This is very similar to videos you see out there with live footage of the band synced up with the pre-recorded studio audio.
The vocals are taken from the studio version, it's pretty easy to check. The only difference is that the growls during the belts are hidden, which is easy to do when you have the master lol. I haven't paid attention to the bass or drums but both Roman and Eugene are capable of playing those pretty much identical so... So yes, it's misleading to call it a live session, but AFAIK it was the label that decided to do that. A better representation of the band would be Perennial live from Wacken 2019.
The studio track has acoustic guitar during the 3rd verse, and yhat's absent here. Not sure whether the guitar and bass tracks that are present here are from the studio version.
I don’t understand how falsely advertising something as live when it isn’t is only “misleading to some.” But you’re right that musicians will scrutinize more than a “pure listener”, simply because they have the skills and knowledge to do so. I guess what’s bothering me about your comment is your comfort level with redefining the word “live” to mean something entirely different. I’d think very few people would confuse concert video footage over studio audio as being “live”. This is billed as live and presented in a way to make the viewer believe it’s live. That’s disingenuous and shouldn’t have excuses made for it.
@Wyl7 - I stated why the verbiage was misleading, but never said it was right to use those words in the title. "Studio Session" would be less confusing to everyone, especially in the case of musicians, producers, and those pesky grammar nazis.
Tatiana went back into the studio and laid down the harmony parts and some guitar parts were also laid down. Seen them 6 times live so far and she never fails to deliver. You should check out Judgement and Punishment, which is a 1 take performance by Tatiana. Would love to see if you think that has been corrected as well. Cheers!
@@penseesdeseb4919 I would bet that OP misspoke (mistyped?) and meant "never disappoints." That's my context take based on the rest of the comment, since it's rather positive in tone otherwise.
@@penseesdeseb4919 No, I mistyped. I meant to say that she never fails to deliver, not disappoint. Thank you for pointing that out. I was very tired haha.
Yes I think that was the requesters intention sending me this, thinking it was like a live performance. So I've just applied my normal analysis to it, but if there's another performance video request I can add it to the list!
@@wingsofpegasus Perennial live from Wacken 2019 shows the band and vocalist in a live setting well. Like most modern bands there is backing tracks but her vocal performance live is outstanding as is the musicianship. Note the band never claimed the Pisces video was live and complained the label pushed it as a live session.
A song is a product and as a product it has to be sold in the best conditions and remastered for sale both physically and on digital platforms. All artists undergo vocal retouching. "Live Session" makes more reference to the experience and the arrangement live. The production details, if subtle, do not detract from the vocal talent of the artist or the skills of the band members. I recommend reacting to their song "Perennial" Live at Wacken..
Not all artists undergo "vocal retouching". It is simply not true. If we are talking about music that appears on the Billboard 200 or the Spotify top charts or similar equivalent, then yes, almost all of those artists have their vocals go through various levels of studio trickery, but this is not all the music that's being made.
@@HawkOfGPthis is not true. Very few bands that know what they’re doing in any genre don’t do these things 😂 if you’re not singing unmiced live, then the final product is modified by something.
@@Cwin-ny6bp "Modified by something". Well, yeah, but there's a wide range of things you can do to a voice in post-production. You can do the usual stuff like add compression, a bit of reverb and do EQing and make the sibilants less prominent and so on and so forth. You can also add other effects like distortion. But all that stuff is different from individually selecting notes from the recorded vocal and sticking them to new "more accurate" pitches. And this is something that is now common, but only a few decades ago basically just didn't happen. Now, it's very hard to gauge amount of bands who "know what they're doing" yet don't use any pitch correction in vocals because you can obviously use it on any amount of notes from 0% to 100% depending on what the band and/or producer sees fit, and if it's only a note here and there, we might never notice. But I promise you that there's still plenty of more underground types of music like certain styles of punk or types of lo-fi indie or folk etc. where no pitch correction is done because it doesn't fit the style of music. And that doesn't mean that they don't know what they're doing. Cheers.
Yep, this video was made to showcase Vlad when he was new in the band. I'm pretty sure that was its only intended purpose. It was unintended that it should go viral the way it did, as if it was intended to be a live showcase for Tatiana's voice. It's not. If that's what you want, check out (for one example) the video for Perennial live at Wacken 2019, or Tatiana's vocal one-take of Judgement & Punishment. I'm quite sure in fact that she's simply lip syncing to the recorded track from the album. It's not just pitch correction, all the studio stuff is there. Every vocal nuance is identical to the album track from King of Everything. You can hear the punch-ins in the same places and all. There's double tracking, including the whisper. Delay, compression, and all the rest. They just took the harsh vocal overdub out behind the belting part toward the end. Which actually makes it an excellent lip sync. So good it fools most people. And it's no different from what every Vocalist does on every music video. "Live session" means different things to different bands and producers; here it just means live drums to showcase the new drummer, in a "live in studio" setting. It sounds to me as if the only changes made were to completely change the drums to Vlad; to take out the acoustic guitar at the beginning of the "Neptune's child" part, and to remove the overdubbed scream. And to add one extra note at the very end of the song! On the record it's two phrases of four; here it's a four and a five. So the guitar and bass parts were probably redone for the last part, "emeralds are ripped away." Other than that I think it's really a regular music video with maybe live recorded drums. As it was intended to be.
This song seriously never gets old, shes like an ACTUAL siren, lures you in with her beautiful voice and then devours you with those growls . This is one of the best vocal tracks I have ever heard.
"Reaction" channels generally pander to fans, so I suspect that those that are opera singers etc often *can* hear autotune/putch correction, but don't say anything because it will be unpopular.
Hello, I don't know if someone pointed out that this is a studio live version recorded in one take and POST PRODUCED, it's written in the description of the video, the say it clearly, nothing to be surprised for
In the description underneath their original video they wrote how live it is. Basically they re-recorded the song in a studio with a new drummer. They did a live recording and then added a few backing vocals and guitars.
Yeah, I never understood how anyone thought this was "live." It's not just the vocals. Everything is perfectly in time and in tune in a way that live performances just aren't. I swear, people have become so used to hearing extreme post-production that they've forgotten what actual live musicians sound like. NO ONE sounds this perfect. It's not possible. I think the reason none of the vocal coach reaction videos have mentioned the pitch correction is because reaction videos tend to be very positive. That's how you get hits. Fans want to hear their favorite band praised. I'm sure many of the reactors were aware that the song wasn't "live." How could they not be? If they're opera singers, they've performed with orchestras and other classically trained singers. They've heard some of the best musicians in the world. They know that even those musicians don't sound this perfect. I think they're just choosing not to mention it in the videos because they'd rather focus on the positive (the singer's tone, her technique, etc).
I think too many people forget that a song (with or without video or other imagery) is an artistic production, not a vocal (or instrumental) purity test. Is a photograph less "authentic" because darkroom techniques like 'dodging' and 'burning', colour filtering and textured paper have been used to give the final print particular qualities? _Of course_ Jinjer use backing tracks and effects to augment their live performances - just like most other professional level bands in the 21st century. This is very obvious and no-one imagines otherwise: what matters is the artistic result. No-one complains that, for example, symphonic metal bands (almost) never appear with a live symphony orchestra and choir performing alongside them, nor should they. Analyses like these are very interesting, and reveal details about music production usually unknown to the average listener, but I hope no-one runs away with the idea that they are being deliberately deceived.
Dear Mr FIL. Could you please analyze a live Jinger track? I ask because I prefer their live performances. In a lot of the live performances, I feel I hear Tatiana's real voice. She sometimes struggles hitting certain notes and I do not hear any autotune or pitch correction. However some of the live tracks have definitley been tweaked post-production because they do use backing tracks. But some of the live recordings are much more raw and less refined.
I have seen so many reactions/analyses to this video and while they talked about post production, no one talked about pitch correction. So glad you did this.
The video is labeled Live SESSIONS. Plural. They are not hiding the fact they are layering the tracks and post producing. There may be a loss of translation here, English is not their first language.
There's both a healthy and an unhealthy way of growling (or screaming, the two terms are used interchangeably). The way you demonstrated it sounded like the unhealthy way to me, which is to say you were using your vocal chords to achieve it. In the short term this can make your voice sound raspy after doing it for more than a song or two, long term it can completely blow out your voice and cause permanent damage. The "healthy" way of growling involves producing the vocals higher up in the throat without engaging the vocal chords. This is why Tatiana is able to switch back and forth between growling and singing so cleanly.
It's everywhere so ive stopped care, as long as the artist can preforme it live or acapella. The problem i have with this pitch thing is, music dosn't need to be perfect as long as it dosn't sound way off, how someone deliver is as important as how it sounds.
that's where we are in society where everything has to be correct even when it's not. One small factor where we have to manufacture sights and sounds. Hope in future we will be able to recognize a bird signing.
That’s what I love about you Fil…You have not only the talent, but also the integrity and honesty to ‘call a spade a spade’. If you hear ‘musical fraud’, aka pitch control and auto tune you call it out. I’m shocked how many comment that the defense of, and appreciation for, the fakery involved in the artist’s ‘performance’.
Just as a metalhead, a nerd, and a human who teaches these type of sounds... There is pitch in the screams and one can learn to hear it with time. What you did vocally was move down in your range and use air in order to vibrate your false vocal folds. Typically metalheads wouldn't go too low in their range to engage the false vocal folds because it would make the sound very quiet and metal tends to have an aesthetic of loudness to it. Thank you for pointing out the pitch correction, double tracking etc!! I never understood why this video was labelled as "live".
Yeah, I also noticed that this was very heavily produced, but that doesn't necessarily bother me. You should definitely check out a live performance, because I'd be very interested to hear your opinion. Yes, they do use recorded backing vocals during live shows, but it'd be interesting to see if she also gets pitch corrected. In any case, I think the whole band does a brilliant job live.
Human beings have natural inflections, breaths, physical pieces moving in their throat and diaphragm so it doesn't necessarily sound better "pitch corrected" it just sounds less emotional or more like an AI can do it
Hi Fil, This is very interesting from a “female” vocal perspective. I had a teacher who called this kind of thing guttural singing. The other thing he would say was, singing wrong or in the gutter will ruin your voice and give you nodes! Nodes was the Kiss Of Death according to him! Lol… he was a bit of a character! I must say I have never heard a female vocalist do this with their voice. Glad that you were able to point out what was going on here. And the breath where she was not even near the mic was the nail that sealed the coffin in this one. Sounds like they are trying to be like Evanescence, with no where near Amy’s vocal ability. Great job on this analysis… You Are The Best… Debbie☮️
Introducing the beautiful and impressive world of "vocal fry" and " distortion". If you are really ever more than just curious, and decide to take a more "academic" route to your musical explorations, Mary Zimmer has a wonderful channel on TH-cam (Voice Hacks) explaining exactly how this type of (healthy) singing works. Thank you sincerely for your insight! Also, as you mentioned, many singers who use this vocal technique don't necessarily understand the " how's " of its production, which Tatiana has admitted to in interviews herself;).
I’ve never been so glad to hear, “and there we have it!”. Pleasssse don’t ever make that sound again. I had to hide under the bed. 🤣 This is the music of my nightmares! Elizabeth on the Charismatic Voice has been really delving into this demon singing and learning to do it herself. I can’t listen to it. Pitch correction and demons in one track! I’m sure my younger cousin loves this band. He played Slayer for hours at his wedding reception and It was painful! Just NOT my cup of tea, to put it mildly. Your ears should be insured, Fil. I don’t know how you do it. Great analysis!
I really don't know what a demon sounds like since they are fallen angels, so why growling has become a demon sound I`m curious to know... Just asking 😁
I'll leave the question of whether the pitch has been corrected (or she's just that good), alone, but as to the double tracking, it's listed in the description of the original video: "...did a live recording and shooting, then added over some extra lines, like a few backing vocals and guitars...".
Mostly because most people don't have any way to prove it so it remains speculation, which is useless. But A LOT of reactions actually question if it's truly live.
I've seen plenty of reactors notice the extra layering of vocals and other post production but then I mostly listing to vocal professionals reacting to stuff.
Simplest way I've heard the 'scream' type vocal voice described is to clear your throat a few times and you'll know exactly how to get to that sound range (male OR female)
19:35 - And they use backing tracks live too. What's wrong with that? Nothing whatsoever, in my opinion, but the "keyboard warriors" think it's cheating.
I've seen them live. They do use extra vocal and guitar fills and some soundscaping. But the live vocals are near enough pitched as in this take most of the time. If you can see digital artifacts in the sound that are left over by piching then fair enough. But she's got pretty accurate pitch even in the rather less than perfect conditions of being second support act in a random venue. I have perfect pitch, and i really notice any deviations.
Is it weird that you often use 440Hz to mean pitch corrected? In the case of the note A it's 440Hz but on any other note it will be a different number. It's just nomenclature I suppose but I'm not sure using 440Hz to mean 'hitting the line' is the most accurate way to describe the entire line of the vocal being pitch corrected.
There are lots of live videos, including just basic cam videos, of Jinjer playing live. She can do the growls, they just don't sound a depth-enhanced and 'male' as they do here.
I've seen her alive and she sounds very similar to me. Not saying that she doesn't clean it up for Post-production or whatever. But she really is an amazing singer. The whole band is amazing in my opinion.
Oh, she's great live for sure but there are definitely doubled backing vocals, whispers, pitch correction and so on, after the fact here. But this is common nowadays. Even full live concerts from bands are pitch corrected, some vocals actually added or redone in the studio and added to the finished audio. Sebastian Bach does this in a really obvious way live with his high notes as his high register is very weak and his super high register is nonexistent.
When I first saw that "live" performance, I noticed the extra production elements and thought to myslef "that's not live!"
I still loved it though
Yes definitely not “live” like we expect but I have seen her live and she is Excellent
Live =/= Live session
The Charismatic Voice does a lot of investigation into how screaming and other distorted vocals work. She's even worked with scientists studying the voice and had them use a scope to view Will Ramos' vocal chords while he's making some of his extreme sounds.
She also has a great interview with Tatiana.
I went down a Tatiana rabbit hole today starting with the Fairy Voice Mother spitting out her tea in shock (and then nailing imitating her), The Daily Doug's analysis and interviews with The Charismatic Voice and Beth Roars.
The human being’s ability to dance around perfection, in this case pitch and rhythm, is the very source of the beauty and meaning in the music. It is quite literally the imperfections that create the goosebumps.
So you like punk music instead of classic music I get it. No I'm not. If you filter to hard yes but as long as you dont the voice is just another instrument and Jinjer doing this super good.
so true! it´s so sad all this autotune/pitch correction bs....
@@m8pwa_ I hear you but here’s the thing. Once you start tweaking it’s like plastic surgery. You think you’ll just get a little tuck on the jawline and before you know it you’re a freakshow.
I agree. Like looks in beauty it is the imperfections that are where the character is. A singer from back in the day who had unique imperfect but likely still edited was Rod Stewart or Louis Armstrong Both families.
@@m8pwa_ Nope. If it is pitch corrected it is fake.
I'm glad you explained how this is achieved. It makes a lot of sense and now I can identify what I was hearing. I love her voice. She's a very beautiful person as well as a beautiful and beastly vocalist. She's an amazing talent and her band is also amazing.
Definitely check out her actual live concert performances. She's one of the best in the bis currently
Does she have to be pitch corrected live, too, while being the 'best' ?
@DS-hs3qp No, this isn't meant to be entirely live according to what they said about it when it was originally released. This was also a long time ago, and her technique has gotten a lot better. I would check out some of their live in Kiev concert stuff like Pit of Consciousness or On the Top. They've really been able to grow as a band since this.
@@DS-hs3qp she isn't pitch corrected live, only on a few official live videos. For example, i think that their concert at hellfest 2021, which you can find on youtube, was pitch corrected, but hellfest 2022 was not, because you can clearly hear wrong notes. But she is still a very talented singer
Entering into the live scene, watching many "live" sessions have made me believe less in if I can even sing or not, but I researched a lot into how most of these live sessions go through heavy post-production, many tuned vocals, sometimes even replaced, and watching this video just opened my eyes more, especially the tuner you're using. Loved it, and it just makes me more confident about not aiming for perfection, but just feel it. Perfection is a myth sold to everyone online, these things just set such unrealistic standards that it's a bad thing for a lot of upcoming artists. You're doing god's work. Not saying there are exceptional vocalists out there, and there are many who can almost be pitch perfect, but the live sessions are just too unrealistic sometimes.
PS - What you hear live can be very different, cause the room absorbs a lot of imperfections, but if you hear the same through phone, you can hear it, until it's processed or corrected, it just won't sound as good. (Exceptions there of course)
Can't express how disappointed I am all this is going on...never even imagined it..
I like how when she goes into her growl your software just says "fuk it, I don't even know what's happening". LoL
Harmonic order? What harmonic order?
there are very big differences between screams and grouls btw .. but getting into harsh vocals is like experiencing a hole new universe of vocals
That extreme vocal technique is called death growling, not screaming. She's not the only female metal vocalist that can do it.
She’s the first female vocalist that I ever heard performing harsh vocals. I really enjoy her regular singing voice, and the harsh vocals punctuate the emotion. It makes more sense when you understand the subject matter.
It’s definitely an acquired taste, but this group is talented. They put on a good live show.
When you listen to her singing Pisces live then you can hear the difference in pitch. She said in an interview that this is not her favorite song. She is really good live, but she seems also not afraid to let us hear some flaws when she does not hit the right tone, .... so she is forgiven the pitch correction 😀
Really? I read this was one of her favourite songs as she is a Pisces.
Look at Jinjer doing Perrenial live at Waken 2019. I think the live version being referred to by a lot of reactors is that one.
Actually I think it may be "Judgement Punishment" live session
@@russellward4624 Yep that is popular but a lot of reactors say, "I needed to see a LIVE performance by Jinjer because I want to see what they really sound like on stage" and the Waken 2019 version of Perennial is a popular go to.
Also who is gonna be the one live
I’ve seen them live. They crush it.
@@michaelvlassakis176 they certainly do. All of them are incredible at what they do
This was made to showcase the band's new drummer Vlad. So they're basically playing to their record from their album and they mixed in Tati's vocals from that album as well to fill it out. Even though the instruments were all live.
Lead guitar was doubled too because they had 2 guitarists still when they first recorded Pisces. There is an interview where they pull back the curtain on this session. They weren't the ones that threw the "live session" tag on it. Napalm records was.
Some call it 'growling' while others call it 'false chord', which is the technical term. So that's when you go very low and add vocal distortion, like you described.
Used a lot in Death and Doom Metal music (and many more).
At the end she goes from using False Chord to 'Fry Scream'. Very popular in Black Metal etc.
With False Chord you exhale a lot of air while going very deep.
With Fry Scream you add more pressure to your exhaling while tightening your vocal muscles. This uses way less air and with a little practice will let you hold a 'note' for 20 seconds quite easily.
Some can even hold it for more than 60 seconds, which is quite banans.
However, be careful while practicing these techniques and do it slowly and warm up beforehand.
Thanks for the video.
Fairy Voice Mother does an excellent demonstration of the false cord technique that Tati probably uses. A good example of Jinjer performing live is their Wacken performance of Perennial. I love this band, in case you couldn’t tell. 😅
I think a lot of people just don't understand the harsh vocal technique as well as how it's used as expression. I'm sure they'd all say Perennial Live @ Wacken is pitch-corrected and fake somehow, too!
I think these two should pair up to do a joint analysis.
Another really good analysis of the techniques is on the channel VoiceHacks by Mary Zimmer.
I'm trying to find the name of the band. I think I just saw it. Is it JINJER?
@@marnaehrech1223 Yes, it's Jinjer.
Explanations: This is mostly the audio from the album version. The video was filmed during a live session rehearsal with their new drummer and they decided to make the video to introduce him. Their sound engineer took the drums of Vlad to replace the original drums in the mix and made just a few changes in the original mix (especially a double-layered voice at the end that was removed).
So yeah, it's post-produced. It's the album version remixed with a new drum recorded live, over a video of a live session. :)
We moved past authenticity long ago. I don't trust anything any more.
Thanks for these breakdowns. 👍
They always play live with backing tracks. I think most of them are tracks actually from the albums. During a tour after the lockdowns opened up, Vlad tested positive for 'Rona mid-tour, so they just piped in his drum parts from Mr. Laptop in addition to the backing tracks for a few shows instead of cancelling.
In the screaming parts you can hear two voices, one in higher frequencies (the original voice buried in the mix) and a lower pitched one an octave lower with a pedal/effect.
You can hear this better at the end of the song.
Okay so lets clarify the terms here. A "live session" is not a live performance. Prior to the early 1970s everyone did live sessions because there waren't enough tracks to record a song instrument by instrument. Now live sessions are used to catch the magic of a band playing their base parts together in a room. A live session is where you start a recording not where you end one. You don't play the song and that is it. Rather than starting the recording with drums or bass or something else by itself you start with the base parts of the band and then build on it the way every other recording is done. That includes double tracking vocals, harmonies, second guitar parts or even someone who was plugged in direct where they aren't bleeding into other insturments spendng a couple hours later re-doing their part. It is then mixed down the way all other records are done.
That is what the industry has been calling a "live session" for decades. It is not like a multitrack recording done at a concert. By live concert recording we aren't talking about the guy sitting in the audience with a cheap video cam kind of recording but a genuine multitrack recording with the addition of mics facing the audience. To a limited extent those recordings can be "fixed" in mixdown as well.
Which brings up the reason pitch is corrected to the granular extent it is in vocals. Guitar players, bass players, keyboard players, and to some extent drummers all live in a world of technology where they are in a constant search for the perfect tone. Over the years that has gotten ridiculously detailed as technology has marched on but vocalists have their voice period as they have since the beiginning of time.
The technology has raised the listening and quality standards for music up to a high level but again vocalists have only the same instrument they have always had. The fact that Max Morton Jinjer's producer has to spot correct lines here and there so that MOST people including professionals can't hear it doesn't faze me even a little as a fan or as a former professional misician who played drums and sang. Especially since there isn't going to be a singer you hear that WON'T have that treatment on their vocals. People can make the claim that "oh I don't mind if the singer is a little off here and there it's natural" but if you really heard it I guarantee in contrast to the perfect guitars and everything else you wouldn't like it. I am not going to hold Tatiana to an impossible standard.
With all due respect because in your own words the vocal is beyond what a singer can physically do, doing this thing where you (you aren't the only one I've seen do it) "catch" a singer being pitch corrected isn't very honest. If it was one singer being accused of doing something unethical nobody else did it would be one thing but it isn't. There is no crutch here and this isn't billed as a live performance. They didn't perform it in front of an audience or live stream it. They started with the base tracks and did the same thing every other band does to build it. However your analysis makes it sound like they are trying to lie to people. There are amazing live on stage performances out there of her and there are some that aren't so good but so what? That's literally descibing every singer that's ever existed.
Singers can only do so many takes of a song, the instruments can plug in direct and redo their parts later she can't in this situation. Not so with a vocalists who's voice is now in the mics of every other insturment using mics (drums). Even if it's a traditional instrument by instrument recording a guitar player can still pysically do more takes of their part than a vocalist can. Studio time is expensive and so often it's easier to replace a drum with a sample or pitch correct a vocal than bring back the artists for another take or make them stay past their physical limits. None of the non-technical people reading this are going to understand all this but they shouldn't have to. You aren't helping them by getting the "lab equipment" out to catch them doing something that isn't going to seem right by their standards and make it look like Tatiana is relying on something other singers don't have to. She isn't.
Fil is analysing specific performances/videos that people have sent him and asked a question about. He's not looking through YT for singers that he can catch out. He's not picking the videos at all.
I may be wrong, but I think you're saying that it's okay to use pitch correction for a recording, and that it doesn't bother you if that's done, because it's done for almost every singer. But what about live performances? Most of the pitch corrected performances that Fil has looked at have been "live", and there have been a lot of them...go take a look at his video playlist. A live vocal that is pitch corrected, then re-released with no information on the video stating that the vocals have been manipulated is a dishonest video. And if everyone in the music industry thinks pitch correction is no big deal, then why not be open and honest about it when it's been applied (sometimes VERY heavy handedly) to a live performance?
@@Terri_MacKay There are plenty of ways to analyze music that doesn't include a connotation that the wool is being pulled over everyone's eyes. Just misrepresenting the difference between a live session and a live performance is enough but pulling out a technical analysis of the pitch of the vocal when at this point it's no different than any other singer and the changes are even so slight most of the time it gets nitpicky isn't providing a service to anyone.
@@coder4liberty In his videos, he's addressing specific questions that have been asked about specific videos. If one of the questions is, "has this been pitch corrected", should he say "no"? Or simply not address the question at all? And you have to accept the fact that not everyone will agree with you. While you are perfectly fine with pitch correction being used, not everyone is.
And it's not always used "ever so slightly". I don't think anyone would have a problem with 2 or 3 notes in a song being tweaked, but when it's the entire song (which we have seen here many times), then it's a bit much. Now we're left with, why? 1. Is the person that bad a singer that entire songs need to be pitch corrected to make them listenable? 2. If their voice is that bad, how do they have a career as a singer? 3. If they're able to perform their songs live (when they only get one chance per show to get it right), are they really singing that badly in the studio that the pitch correction has to be really heavy handed? All those "imperfections" that they're pitch correcting is where the emotion is in songs, it's where a singer's individuality is.
@@Terri_MacKay My answer would be that virtually all have some degree of pitch correction and leave it at that. I am well aware that some singers need it as a crutch but it's clear from the reputation of "autotune" that nothing can be gained by perpetuating the misinformation that whenever you see it it's being used to make up for a lack of talent. That's the resut of giving a non-technical person a technical answer with graphs and charts they can't hope to interpret properly.
My comments come from having experience in this field. I'm not saying it isn't a big deal because I can personally tolerate it I'm saying when virtually every single singer in a lead role gets pitch adjusted to one extent or another often without their consultation because of current listening standards it isn't logical to single singers out and dedicate an entire video to how they are pitch corrected. No kidding pretty much all of them are. All it does is give non-technical viewers a sqewed view of the technique and the singer. Sometimes it creates emotion. Sometimes on the backdrop of heavily produced guitars, keyboards and drums it sounds out of place. Just because you have that context that doesn't mean the majority of music fans would. Every single instrument is tweaked to the maxiumum the technology will alow. The voice is no different.
There is a thrill in seeing a band or musician live that one doesn’t always get from a recording, they are 2 different experiences. Granted some are quite good at recreating the studio sound but experiencing a variation from the original is one of the joys of a live performance.
most live shows also use auto tune,.
For me, the thrill was definjitely seeing Soundgarden of RATM doing it completely differently. Its bold, bands have lost that these days.
@@morbidmanmusic, this was pitch corrected not so much auto tune.
@@morbidmanmusic I disagree, for the same reason Fil gave… Autotune live is risky. A singer can get away with it if they’re consistently close to the correct pitch, but that’s not a given. Singers’ voices fatigue the longer the show goes, and the good ones know how to compensate for that to still sound good. But Autotune is unforgiving… if you get just a little too far from your intended pitch, it will yank it in an unnatural way either to the pitch you were going for, or worse an out of key note above or below the correct one.
This was hilariously interesting. Appreciate you exposing your own potential vulnerabilitues in this analysis lesson.
Most metal screaming is much louder than most singing. Belting comes close but belted screams are still typically louder. You can make the scream noises quiet but it would sound quite weak and fake. The emotion is the important part of screaming. And now that it has become popularized you are finding a lot of metal vocalists sound more mechanical.
A couple notes I’d add as I’m watching…the original video description is quite clear that this was “produced up” from “live” - and was intended as an introduction to their new (at the time) drummer, Vlad. There are indeed backing tracks involved, but one major difference between this recording and what was released on the King Of Everything album is the middle guitar bridge. It’s an acoustic guitar on the album, but Roman plays the line on the electric in this video.
I'll provide a bit more. The vocal track is from the original recording with this performance layered on. It is production level. The band is overall the live part, but they've never hid the fact this isn't a purely 'live session' with no production. It was a one off to introduce Vlad, as was mentioned. It just blew up with reactors. Absolutely spot on analysis of my favorite band.
@@davejohnston2197 Yeah, it's ridiculous how many comments are "yeah I knew they couldn't do that Live, it didn't sound like it was really Live, etc,".
It's almost like no one READ the description in the Video that it's a mixed version, partially from recordings in that session. The quote in the description of that video...
"I believe we had this idea to record a new version of “Pisces” when we first rehearsed the song with Vlad Ulasevich as a new drummer. His drumming makes the song sound really different. So we finally had some free time last winter, we went to Istok studio in Kiev, did a live recording and shooting, then added over some extra lines, like a few backing vocals and guitars, then Max from Morton Studio made this new magnificent version of mixing and here we are - Pisces video. I hope you will enjoy it!"
Directed by Oleg Rooz
Really even more disappointed that this channel clearly didn't read it either, as he keep referring to it like it was falsely promoted as a Live performance.
@@RokNDragon the vocal track is taken from the studio recording in full, the only thing changed is the growling is removed from the clean belted notes at the end.
I am a huge Jinjer fan BTW so I don't have an agenda, you can load up both tracks in a DAW and compare them yourself.
@@Qyngali My only issue with this is that its being talked about it like it's trying to deceive viewers. Multiple comments on this video talk about being disappointed, that a studio recorded, "performance style" video had audio mixing done. Implying that they think it means they only sound good in a studio, and "obviously" can't sound good live. Not all the comments, but a fair number of them.
I've heard many of their live performances videos, they sound great live.
It’s still a horrid practice. Just because you announce that you are cheating in advance doest’t make it any better.
These videos are so interesting. Thanks.
The problem here is the people that titled the video. “Live studio recording” is a bit of a misnomer. It’s obviously not live in a sense that would meet any common definition. That’s clearly apparent. “Studio” indicates that it was mixed and mastered. That includes pitch correction in any modern studio.
Yes, this is certainly not a "live" performance we're seeing. I do recall Tatiana, in an interview, regretting that this was labeled as live, since it was kind of a new version of this song, since they had a new drummer, at this time. I was hoping to get a bit of commentary on the time signature changes, bass tapping, etc. But, maybe the plan was to focus on her voice, which generally steals the show. 😁
Thanks Fil! In fact, there is a lot in common between the rasp technique You use and Tatiana’s growl. You hear the note because all types of screams are based on the vocal folds. In this case, false folds, cartilages and the epiglottis (not always included) act as a filter, i.e. impart chaos to the sound waves that create the vocal folds (which simply cut the flow of exhaled air into equal parts at different speeds). And the sound will depend on the degree of compression of the larynx (twang), the position of the larynx, the degree of closure and compression of the vocal cords (chest sound, falsetto or even whistle) and the position of the jaw and tongue.
@@ShaggaSonOfDolf-k4q I tried my best.
I've seen them live and they are excellent. Tatiana is great live as both a singer and front woman. I think you get a good impression of her singing voice from this, despite the pitch correction. She is entirely self taught; learnt the screaming technique by screaming into a pillow (true!).
But how can you say that? Her voice is pitch corrected so no it doesn’t sound like what she sounds like live. Again, why pitch correction she probably sounds incredibly without it.
@@bnbsdathe same way he can say that you're wrong about only ugly women wearing makeup. Even beautiful women wear makeup too.
@@bnbsda I saw them a couple months ago. AMAZING.
Thank you! Very interesting. I really don't like this kind of music either, just like you, but you made the analysis very interesting. A good friend of mine likes this kind of music, and that's why I really appreciate your analysis of it.
Very cool breaking this down, love it, & as always giving me an appreciation for something I otherwise might not have?
I just love you, my man, best explanation and great entertainment with distorted voice! ❤
Love this band...saw them 2016 thru 2020 probably 6 or7 time in small venues of like 50-100 people or even smaller. Great band great show..was cool to see them before the broke out and then after
I believe the technique is called "growling."
I read this was actually the first time playing with the new drummer, who kills it btw, so it was more of a vibe session that was recorded "live".. but that Doesn't mean it wasn't run through processors after 🤷🏾♂️
I laughed so hard when after the growling there was this pregnant pause and the "So..."
I’m so glad you took a look at a “screamer” vocalist! As I’ve mentioned in the past, my adult son is a drummer in a heavy metal local band. I know that their screamer took vocal lessons so as not to hurt his throat and vocal cords. I wondered if they were on pitch. I have listened to many heavy metal screamers over these many years, both from local performers live, and from the more prominent professional’s recorded music, (Pantera, Korn, Hatebreed), as it is my son’s music of choice. To this day, that is what is playing in his car, although he does appreciate, classical music, jazz (as a drummer, he prefers “non-four/four” beats…he double pedals and does 32nd beats), Dave Mathew’s, and FRANK SINATRA! I was stunned that the screamer in the recording was the same female vocalist as in the rest of the performance! That girl has the scream down!
You should hear her live.
They're not called screamers just like any other singer they're called a singer do not insult them by calling them a screamer
The charismatic voice actually mentions that she had post-production in her video
Haha! Jinjer snags another one! You Were Not PREPARED! hehe hehe hehe
Some people say her harsh vocals sound "demonic". I've also heard it described at "the boss monster in a video game". What it reminds me of is a mountain lion; the kind you don't want to hear at midnight when you're camping in the mountains. I think there are natural sounds in our common background which we fear, either instinctually or culturally, through stories which make use of elements that have been symbolized that way.
I have just actually asked that question to TBeatles further up...
Another observation. In the pre-recorded version, when Tatyana does the short belted part near the end, there is also scream vocal at the same time. This could easily have been done here given that there was vocal doubling at various points anyway. I'm assuming they chose not to do that so that it would sound more "live". Obviously everyone would know you can't belt and scream at the same time and whilst people also know you can't double your own vocal live, a doubled scream would be less obvious to many listeners. Interestingly, when it is performed live on stage Tatyana usually just does the scream and drops the belt.
Tracks live is common, heard alot of metal songs with screams mid song that continue and then they start sing before it's ended. Usually not my cup of tea but if it's not to often and for tasty added effect go for it, most bands have it in some sort of way to get a richer sound unless it's unplugged.
I saw them live last September and I can tell you that she can hit all the notes, belts, growls, and screams in a live show. Also, yes they use very subtle backing tracks that are usually only light synth for dramatic effect. That said...
Folks see the words live session in the video title and assume a lot. The pure listener just enjoys the intimate setting of the studio and watching them play the instruments. Musicians get wrapped up in the fact that any post-production on the audio negates all of the live aspect. Engineers take it even further and start picking apart whether they hear a live effect, overdub, multi-tracking, voice correction, backing tracks, etc.
So....the title says live session which is misleading to some. Something to note on this video is that this song is from a previous album with a different drummer. If you listen to the drums on the original studio version the drums are WAY different. (I'd even say they suck in my opinion.) This video is of the live session where they are re-recording the song with (and introducing) their new drummer, Vlad. Therefore the live session verbiage refers to the visual representation. This is very similar to videos you see out there with live footage of the band synced up with the pre-recorded studio audio.
The vocals are taken from the studio version, it's pretty easy to check. The only difference is that the growls during the belts are hidden, which is easy to do when you have the master lol. I haven't paid attention to the bass or drums but both Roman and Eugene are capable of playing those pretty much identical so...
So yes, it's misleading to call it a live session, but AFAIK it was the label that decided to do that.
A better representation of the band would be Perennial live from Wacken 2019.
The studio track has acoustic guitar during the 3rd verse, and yhat's absent here. Not sure whether the guitar and bass tracks that are present here are from the studio version.
I don’t understand how falsely advertising something as live when it isn’t is only “misleading to some.” But you’re right that musicians will scrutinize more than a “pure listener”, simply because they have the skills and knowledge to do so. I guess what’s bothering me about your comment is your comfort level with redefining the word “live” to mean something entirely different. I’d think very few people would confuse concert video footage over studio audio as being “live”. This is billed as live and presented in a way to make the viewer believe it’s live. That’s disingenuous and shouldn’t have excuses made for it.
@Wyl7 - I stated why the verbiage was misleading, but never said it was right to use those words in the title. "Studio Session" would be less confusing to everyone, especially in the case of musicians, producers, and those pesky grammar nazis.
Tatiana went back into the studio and laid down the harmony parts and some guitar parts were also laid down. Seen them 6 times live so far and she never fails to deliver. You should check out Judgement and Punishment, which is a 1 take performance by Tatiana. Would love to see if you think that has been corrected as well. Cheers!
Or I've miss understand (possible, English is not native tongue), or you go to see 6 time a band witch disappoint you? Why? :)
@@penseesdeseb4919 I would bet that OP misspoke (mistyped?) and meant "never disappoints." That's my context take based on the rest of the comment, since it's rather positive in tone otherwise.
@@iDEATH yes that make sense :)
🤔
@@penseesdeseb4919 No, I mistyped. I meant to say that she never fails to deliver, not disappoint. Thank you for pointing that out. I was very tired haha.
Jinjer deliver it live seen them twice.. try a live preformance
Yes I think that was the requesters intention sending me this, thinking it was like a live performance. So I've just applied my normal analysis to it, but if there's another performance video request I can add it to the list!
@@wingsofpegasus Perennial live from Wacken 2019 shows the band and vocalist in a live setting well. Like most modern bands there is backing tracks but her vocal performance live is outstanding as is the musicianship. Note the band never claimed the Pisces video was live and complained the label pushed it as a live session.
A song is a product and as a product it has to be sold in the best conditions and remastered for sale both physically and on digital platforms. All artists undergo vocal retouching. "Live Session" makes more reference to the experience and the arrangement live. The production details, if subtle, do not detract from the vocal talent of the artist or the skills of the band members. I recommend reacting to their song "Perennial" Live at Wacken..
Not all artists undergo "vocal retouching". It is simply not true. If we are talking about music that appears on the Billboard 200 or the Spotify top charts or similar equivalent, then yes, almost all of those artists have their vocals go through various levels of studio trickery, but this is not all the music that's being made.
@@HawkOfGPthis is not true. Very few bands that know what they’re doing in any genre don’t do these things 😂 if you’re not singing unmiced live, then the final product is modified by something.
@@Cwin-ny6bp "Modified by something". Well, yeah, but there's a wide range of things you can do to a voice in post-production. You can do the usual stuff like add compression, a bit of reverb and do EQing and make the sibilants less prominent and so on and so forth. You can also add other effects like distortion. But all that stuff is different from individually selecting notes from the recorded vocal and sticking them to new "more accurate" pitches. And this is something that is now common, but only a few decades ago basically just didn't happen.
Now, it's very hard to gauge amount of bands who "know what they're doing" yet don't use any pitch correction in vocals because you can obviously use it on any amount of notes from 0% to 100% depending on what the band and/or producer sees fit, and if it's only a note here and there, we might never notice. But I promise you that there's still plenty of more underground types of music like certain styles of punk or types of lo-fi indie or folk etc. where no pitch correction is done because it doesn't fit the style of music. And that doesn't mean that they don't know what they're doing. Cheers.
Not my preference for music at all, but your breakdown is fascinating. Thanks
Yep, this video was made to showcase Vlad when he was new in the band. I'm pretty sure that was its only intended purpose. It was unintended that it should go viral the way it did, as if it was intended to be a live showcase for Tatiana's voice. It's not. If that's what you want, check out (for one example) the video for Perennial live at Wacken 2019, or Tatiana's vocal one-take of Judgement & Punishment.
I'm quite sure in fact that she's simply lip syncing to the recorded track from the album. It's not just pitch correction, all the studio stuff is there. Every vocal nuance is identical to the album track from King of Everything. You can hear the punch-ins in the same places and all. There's double tracking, including the whisper. Delay, compression, and all the rest. They just took the harsh vocal overdub out behind the belting part toward the end. Which actually makes it an excellent lip sync. So good it fools most people. And it's no different from what every Vocalist does on every music video. "Live session" means different things to different bands and producers; here it just means live drums to showcase the new drummer, in a "live in studio" setting.
It sounds to me as if the only changes made were to completely change the drums to Vlad; to take out the acoustic guitar at the beginning of the "Neptune's child" part, and to remove the overdubbed scream. And to add one extra note at the very end of the song! On the record it's two phrases of four; here it's a four and a five. So the guitar and bass parts were probably redone for the last part, "emeralds are ripped away." Other than that I think it's really a regular music video with maybe live recorded drums. As it was intended to be.
This song seriously never gets old, shes like an ACTUAL siren, lures you in with her beautiful voice and then devours you with those growls . This is one of the best vocal tracks I have ever heard.
"Reaction" channels generally pander to fans, so I suspect that those that are opera singers etc often *can* hear autotune/putch correction, but don't say anything because it will be unpopular.
Fil, you're brilliant and I enjoy your videos so much. Thank you.
Hello, I don't know if someone pointed out that this is a studio live version recorded in one take and POST PRODUCED, it's written in the description of the video, the say it clearly, nothing to be surprised for
In the description underneath their original video they wrote how live it is. Basically they re-recorded the song in a studio with a new drummer. They did a live recording and then added a few backing vocals and guitars.
Yeah, I never understood how anyone thought this was "live." It's not just the vocals. Everything is perfectly in time and in tune in a way that live performances just aren't. I swear, people have become so used to hearing extreme post-production that they've forgotten what actual live musicians sound like. NO ONE sounds this perfect. It's not possible.
I think the reason none of the vocal coach reaction videos have mentioned the pitch correction is because reaction videos tend to be very positive. That's how you get hits. Fans want to hear their favorite band praised. I'm sure many of the reactors were aware that the song wasn't "live." How could they not be? If they're opera singers, they've performed with orchestras and other classically trained singers. They've heard some of the best musicians in the world. They know that even those musicians don't sound this perfect. I think they're just choosing not to mention it in the videos because they'd rather focus on the positive (the singer's tone, her technique, etc).
I think too many people forget that a song (with or without video or other imagery) is an artistic production, not a vocal (or instrumental) purity test. Is a photograph less "authentic" because darkroom techniques like 'dodging' and 'burning', colour filtering and textured paper have been used to give the final print particular qualities?
_Of course_ Jinjer use backing tracks and effects to augment their live performances - just like most other professional level bands in the 21st century. This is very obvious and no-one imagines otherwise: what matters is the artistic result. No-one complains that, for example, symphonic metal bands (almost) never appear with a live symphony orchestra and choir performing alongside them, nor should they.
Analyses like these are very interesting, and reveal details about music production usually unknown to the average listener, but I hope no-one runs away with the idea that they are being deliberately deceived.
you are spot on !
Dear Mr FIL. Could you please analyze a live Jinger track? I ask because I prefer their live performances. In a lot of the live performances, I feel I hear Tatiana's real voice. She sometimes struggles hitting certain notes and I do not hear any autotune or pitch correction. However some of the live tracks have definitley been tweaked post-production because they do use backing tracks. But some of the live recordings are much more raw and less refined.
I have seen so many reactions/analyses to this video and while they talked about post production, no one talked about pitch correction. So glad you did this.
I have no words for this one! Another not live ! Fil , please don't talk like a demon , you are scaring me ! 😢
Actually you can double track guitars automatically by using plug ins in Protools. The drums also sound like they were processed using beat detective
The video is labeled Live SESSIONS. Plural. They are not hiding the fact they are layering the tracks and post producing. There may be a loss of translation here, English is not their first language.
There's both a healthy and an unhealthy way of growling (or screaming, the two terms are used interchangeably). The way you demonstrated it sounded like the unhealthy way to me, which is to say you were using your vocal chords to achieve it. In the short term this can make your voice sound raspy after doing it for more than a song or two, long term it can completely blow out your voice and cause permanent damage. The "healthy" way of growling involves producing the vocals higher up in the throat without engaging the vocal chords. This is why Tatiana is able to switch back and forth between growling and singing so cleanly.
It's everywhere so ive stopped care, as long as the artist can preforme it live or acapella.
The problem i have with this pitch thing is, music dosn't need to be perfect as long as it dosn't sound way off, how someone deliver is as important as how it sounds.
24 minutes of my life I will not be wishing I could get back. It was time well spent.
Echoing the requests for Perennial live at Wacken 2019, very interested to hear what you make of that performance!
Phenomenal analysis, Fil! I enjoyed this immensely, though I was quite familiar with this performance already.
that's where we are in society where everything has to be correct even when it's not. One small factor where we have to manufacture sights and sounds. Hope in future we will be able to recognize a bird signing.
very informative, thank you. Doesn't change anything to me, still incredible band and singer. They use tools.
It's what kids do when they wanna sound like a monster. Or, that one kid from Little Rascals, Frog.
That’s what I love about you Fil…You have not only the talent, but also the integrity and honesty to ‘call a spade a spade’. If you hear ‘musical fraud’, aka pitch control and auto tune you call it out. I’m shocked how many comment that the defense of, and appreciation for, the fakery involved in the artist’s ‘performance’.
Just for mentioning it. This video was released to introduce the new drummer.
I would really like to see an analysis of Spiritbox's Circle With Me vocal one take by Courtney LaPlante... Anyone else :D
Just as a metalhead, a nerd, and a human who teaches these type of sounds... There is pitch in the screams and one can learn to hear it with time. What you did vocally was move down in your range and use air in order to vibrate your false vocal folds. Typically metalheads wouldn't go too low in their range to engage the false vocal folds because it would make the sound very quiet and metal tends to have an aesthetic of loudness to it.
Thank you for pointing out the pitch correction, double tracking etc!! I never understood why this video was labelled as "live".
Yeah, I also noticed that this was very heavily produced, but that doesn't necessarily bother me. You should definitely check out a live performance, because I'd be very interested to hear your opinion. Yes, they do use recorded backing vocals during live shows, but it'd be interesting to see if she also gets pitch corrected. In any case, I think the whole band does a brilliant job live.
actually it's called growling
omgosh! 😂😂😂😂 “sounding like a demon”… I literally laughed out loud!! 😂😂😂😂❤
Interesting as always... Thanks...
Fil sounds like "Dr. Claw" (Inspector Gadget's nemesis).
Fil, I love the way you fight! But sometimes I lose my confidence and fear that you will lose 😞
WTH. I was not ready for the 😈!!! Not for me, but I appreciate your expertise and analysis.
Great analysis! Congrats!!
any chance we can have some analysis of 'H era' Marillion vocals plz
Human beings have natural inflections, breaths, physical pieces moving in their throat and diaphragm so it doesn't necessarily sound better "pitch corrected" it just sounds less emotional or more like an AI can do it
Hi Fil,
This is very interesting from a “female” vocal perspective. I had a teacher who called this kind of thing guttural singing. The other thing he would say was, singing wrong or in the gutter will ruin your voice and give you nodes! Nodes was the Kiss Of Death according to him! Lol… he was a bit of a character! I must say I have never heard a female vocalist do this with their voice. Glad that you were able to point out what was going on here. And the breath where she was not even near the mic was the nail that sealed the coffin in this one. Sounds like they are trying to be like Evanescence, with no where near Amy’s vocal ability. Great job on this analysis… You Are The Best… Debbie☮️
The video was made to showcase the drummer who was new and thought he could add something to the song.
Introducing the beautiful and impressive world of "vocal fry" and " distortion". If you are really ever more than just curious, and decide to take a more "academic" route to your musical explorations, Mary Zimmer has a wonderful channel on TH-cam (Voice Hacks) explaining exactly how this type of (healthy) singing works. Thank you sincerely for your insight! Also, as you mentioned, many singers who use this vocal technique don't necessarily understand the " how's " of its production, which Tatiana has admitted to in interviews herself;).
You might want to compare different types of noises, including industrial sounds, in order to explain this sonic phenomenon.
I’ve never been so glad to hear, “and there we have it!”. Pleasssse don’t ever make that sound again. I had to hide under the bed. 🤣 This is the music of my nightmares! Elizabeth on the Charismatic Voice has been really delving into this demon singing and learning to do it herself. I can’t listen to it. Pitch correction and demons in one track! I’m sure my younger cousin loves this band. He played Slayer for hours at his wedding reception and It was painful! Just NOT my cup of tea, to put it mildly. Your ears should be insured, Fil. I don’t know how you do it. Great analysis!
I really don't know what a demon sounds like since they are fallen angels, so why growling has become a demon sound I`m curious to know... Just asking 😁
"Don't look too long into the abyss, or the abyss will look into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
I'll leave the question of whether the pitch has been corrected (or she's just that good), alone, but as to the double tracking, it's listed in the description of the original video: "...did a live recording and shooting, then added over some extra lines, like a few backing vocals and guitars...".
It’s not a question…nor is it unusual in this day and age.
Thanks Fil - I've seen a lot of reactions to this track and almost none have spotted that it wasn't "live".
Mostly because most people don't have any way to prove it so it remains speculation, which is useless. But A LOT of reactions actually question if it's truly live.
I've seen plenty of reactors notice the extra layering of vocals and other post production but then I mostly listing to vocal professionals reacting to stuff.
Simplest way I've heard the 'scream' type vocal voice described is to clear your throat a few times and you'll know exactly how to get to that sound range (male OR female)
Good catch! (As per your usual spot on assessments)
Tatiania live (not session xD) will blow your socks off!
Interesting stuff.
I'll get you yet, Gadget!
19:35 - And they use backing tracks live too. What's wrong with that? Nothing whatsoever, in my opinion, but the "keyboard warriors" think it's cheating.
I've seen them live. They do use extra vocal and guitar fills and some soundscaping. But the live vocals are near enough pitched as in this take most of the time. If you can see digital artifacts in the sound that are left over by piching then fair enough. But she's got pretty accurate pitch even in the rather less than perfect conditions of being second support act in a random venue. I have perfect pitch, and i really notice any deviations.
Is it weird that you often use 440Hz to mean pitch corrected? In the case of the note A it's 440Hz but on any other note it will be a different number. It's just nomenclature I suppose but I'm not sure using 440Hz to mean 'hitting the line' is the most accurate way to describe the entire line of the vocal being pitch corrected.
There are lots of live videos, including just basic cam videos, of Jinjer playing live. She can do the growls, they just don't sound a depth-enhanced and 'male' as they do here.