"We wondered about the effect tone-bars have on the guitar...so we built one of our guitars without tone-bars..." Wow. Thanks for the time and commitment required to respond to the question. I don't have the best ears on the planet, but even I can clearly hear the sonic difference.
Before Martin went to a preponderantly forwarded-shifted X-Brace in their newest acoustic lineup, the D-41 had a rear-shifted X-Brace. The soundboard (top) vibrated less, but the guitar had a "punchy" sound (you could feel the punch from the bass strings). This experiment showed off these general principles, only with the tone bars instead of the X-Brace. Thank you for doing this. Quite the demonstration.
Another excellent and informative video. Makes me want my next Alvarez guitar even more (already selected one). By the way, great and speedy response by the Alvarez helpdesk. Thanks!
That's a great video and experiment, thank you gentlemen. No other manufacturer makes such interesting acoustic blogs, and now that you're done with basic topics, new videos are getting more and more interesting. Please keep up the great work, also looking forward to Masterworks jumbo! :)
I am a 40 year Alvarez fan. I bought my first 5051 in 1983 (1982 60th Anniversary edition. I also own a 1983 5051). I have a 1973 5046 w/original pickup and pots. One of these days I will have a Yairi but I have always loved the Artist Series going way back becasue Alvarez delivered a high quality affordable product that competes well against much more expensive guitars. I would put my 5051s against just about any vintage flatpicking guitar. They just push air with a creamy fat and lush mellow tone. My favorite guitar company buck for buck.
Always a treat to have new videos from you. Very informative as usual. Thanks so much for your commitment to making wonderful sounding guitars and educating us along the way!
This is great stuff. This has become my favorite guitar channel. What an amazing difference in sound/resonance with and without tone bars. For me, the one without tone bars doesn't sound very good at all. It's like a sailboat without a rudder (or maybe without a centerboard). Of course, the other one sounds great.
Aloha from da big island, love this channel and I just bought my first Alvarez guitar the md60evb. Waiting for it now. One question is it the same as the md60bg just electronic and color?
The one with the tone bars has what I would call a rounder or a fuller sound. The one without tone bars has a thinner sound. I would think without the tone bars the guitar top would be more susceptible to cracking.
Great teaching video. Always like to learn something new. While not as deep of a sound, this reminds me of a baritone guitar. My thoughts then moved back to what is always giving me GAS; anticipating the arrival of the Alvarez Archtops. Which brought up another idea. How about a baritone version of the archtops?
Wow. I had no idea that the bracing modifies the speed of sound across the top to prevent (or cause) out of phase responses from different sections. Thanks, you guys are great!
Excellent topic coverage. This series of videos have made it pretty much a dead certainty that my next acoustic will will be a masterworks Alvarez, although they are hard to find here in Australia.
Thank you for watching! We are so happy to hear your next acoustic will be one of ours, if we can help with anything please reach out to us at info@alvarezguitars.com 👍
An aspect that isn't discussed all that often is the effect of bracing on the natural bridge rise that with time (years) due to the tension of the strings. This is naturally difficult to simulate in the near term. In addition to the modulation of tone heard here, I'd expect the top not to resist the effect of string tension on the top if it lacked tonebars
To be able to say if it sounds better or worse, you need to put it into context. If you use a guitar by itself, just guitar & vocals, then yes, you want a good balance between high and low end. However, if you use it in a mix with other guitars and a bass and drums, most of the time, you will cut some of the low end (called "doing a high-pass") so that you hear the strumming of the strings and you let the other instruments handle the actual notes and let the bass guitar handle the low end. In this case, having a guitar like this saves you some EQ work.
Thanks for your thoughts on this, we really appreciate it! It’s true that if you’re playing in an ensemble the last thing you want is those resonant frequencies muddying up the mix. We’re glad you stopped by to contribute!
Martin's A frame X brace from the 90's? My 1998 D-2R is a cannon, lying tonally somewhere in between a D-28 and a D-18. The top is as flat as it was when it left the factory.
Amazing video what song is that begining? Something in the Orange? I've sanded all of the bracing into a tapper on either side of the X bracing and the tone bars on two of my custom guitars- noticably more responsive- maybe a bit more sustain - after sanding the bass side lower bough X brace it added more bass. They were already heavily scalloped so I left the height alone- I basically google Ervin Somygi guitar bracing and copied that. I used 300 to start then went all the way up to 900 to make them glassy smooth ( just because it felt nicer I know no one will ever see it)
Yes, that's way too much area, in the wrong place, for not having any bracing. I would be curious to know how it would sound with just one tone bar. Heavy enough to support the top from sagging.
The face of the guitar is a diaphragm. The diaphragm of a nylon string guitar and a steel string guitar are different. They have to be because they have to be strong enough to hold the different tensions without distorting over time. The archtop diaphragm is completely different.. Yeah it works but for how long. There is a retention factor in the diaphragm and in the neck. What you want is a diaphragm that does not distort over time or due to changes in temperature and humidity. Stability may compromise tone- it's worth it.
I’m all to familiar with the sound of an Alvarez w/o the tone bar. My RD8C from the early 2000s that I still currently own sounds similar to the guitar w/o the tone bar. Not to say that it sounds bad, but it has that quality of tone. Maybe in the near future, I would upgrade to a modern Alvarez or Yairi.
Madame De Goni's guitar is both the first signature Martin as well as the first example of the modern x-braced guitar. You can see in this video, th-cam.com/video/GYq7aGx8z_Q/w-d-xo.html, at the Martin factory there were no tone bars in this first example which had gut strings. Tone bars likely weren't added or needed until steel strings came in later models; which were around the same time. Chris Martin IV believes X-bracing was created in part as bridge pins were used to secure strings (steel) and this led to drilling into the fan braces of the time - so they kepts spreading the fans out until you get the X. You have a cool video here and a lovely sounding guitar (with tonebars) as I was curious what it would sound like without. Thanks!
Once again, very interesting stuff! BTW when was Chris in Northampton M.A? I lived there in 1995 when I was teaching at Hampshire College, Amherst. I still have friends in the valley.
I did like the openness of the guitar without the tone bars, I would love to hear one with smaller tone bars. I do like a woofy bass driven guitar. For my tastes I like the bass of a Martin HD-28
I thought you were talking about the little metal bars that they sell on Ebay for 10 bucks- glad you clarified what you were talking about- so now go get one of those 10 bars and compare what it does to the low end of your guitar.. no comparison whatsoever tonebar wins hands down. And throw your bridge pins away forever.
IMO you want the timber (especially the top) to be as thin as it can be, but still be strong enough to maintain its integrity. Thats why we have bracing in the 1st place. If the sides are very thin, then they may need braces (depends on shape and wood type as well). Thicker sides might not need them. Some guitars have a curve (bowl) in the back which adds strength so that they dont require bracing on the back, so, thats another way to do it. All ways are valid and one tone inst better than another, just different. Tone bar = BS, IMO. Its all just bracing for strength. If a guitar collapses without the "tone bar" then was it ever a tone bar or was it a brace.
Chris 'n' Dee 💐🥇🏆 Emerson, Lake & Palmer Welcome Back my Friends to the Show that Never Ends Lyrics (Karn Evil 9: 1st Impression, Part 2) Welcome back, my friends to the show that never ends. We're so glad you could attend! Come inside! Come inside! There behind a glass stands a real blade of grass be careful as you pass. Move along! Move along! Come inside, the show's about to start guaranteed to blow your head apart Rest a__ured you'll get your money's worth The greatest show it happens a hell-of-alot. You've got to see the show, it's a dynamo. You've got to see the show, it's rock and roll Right before your eyes, We'll pull laughter from the skies And he laughs until he cries, then he dies, then he dies Come inside, the show's about to start guaranteed to blow your head apart You've got to see the show, it's a dynamo. You've got to see the show, it's rock and roll [Instrumental] Soon the Gypsy Queen in a glaze of Vaseline Will perform on guillotine What a scene! What a scene! Next upon the stand will you please extend a hand to Alexander's Ragtime Band Dixieland, Dixieland Roll up! Roll up! Roll up! See the show! Performing on a stool we've a sight to make you drool Seven virgins and a mule Keep it cool. Keep it cool. We would like it to be known the exhibits that were shown were exclusively our own. All our own. All our own. Come and see the show! Come and see the show! Come and see the show! See the show! 👍🙏✌️
I owned a yairi Alverez with all the mother of pearl and i was on the road in Nashville and it got stolen on the road some years back and it sounded better on some songs than my Gibson J-200 i have been looking all over the states and still looking everywhere it had alot of mother of pearl with the tree of life running all over the face of the neck and all the edges and sound hole and a Fishman double pickup plugs in where the strap button would be on the right side if you have seen this guitar and can help me cause my grandson and granddaughter should have this guitar if something was to happen to me !!! Thank you everyone at #alvarezguitars yairi built guitars thank you everyonne...
Seriously I prefer the sound of the guitar without tonebars. It had a ring of 12 string and sounded clearer and richer then the other one. With the tonebars the guitar sounded a little bit boomy with swallowed highs in this video. If the tonebars were not important for structural integrity, I'd take the the guitar without the tonebars for sure. I am surprised myself.
Nonsuch thing as tone bars, I've never heard them being called that, its bracing plain and simple, all they do is stop the strings from pulling the guitar apart over time, in a perfect world there would be no bracing needed as the sound comes from the vibration of the top the more bracing the less vibration thats possible, so its a comprimise and a balance between structural strenght and loss of volume/sound.
@@AlvarezGuitarsOfficial Gotta love a company selling Chinese imports knocking one of the best USA made guitars. You sell Chinese imports at made in México prices when Harley Benton would be a better value. You can only dream of having the annual revenue of Taylor.
Without the tonebars, that guitar sounds like a cheap, Chinese knockoff. I assume that after only a month or two, it would become unplayable. I hear the strings cancelling out on the frets even now.
"We wondered about the effect tone-bars have on the guitar...so we built one of our guitars without tone-bars..." Wow. Thanks for the time and commitment required to respond to the question. I don't have the best ears on the planet, but even I can clearly hear the sonic difference.
Before Martin went to a preponderantly forwarded-shifted X-Brace in their newest acoustic lineup, the D-41 had a rear-shifted X-Brace. The soundboard (top) vibrated less, but the guitar had a "punchy" sound (you could feel the punch from the bass strings). This experiment showed off these general principles, only with the tone bars instead of the X-Brace. Thank you for doing this. Quite the demonstration.
Thanks to YOU both and Alvarez for building a special guitar to answer a question we all have asked!
Appreciate that, we loved doing this experiment!
One of the best Alvarez vids yet, great experiment!
Another excellent and informative video. Makes me want my next Alvarez guitar even more (already selected one). By the way, great and speedy response by the Alvarez helpdesk. Thanks!
Thank you @RR-mi5ni, hope you get your new guitar soon!
That's a great video and experiment, thank you gentlemen.
No other manufacturer makes such interesting acoustic blogs, and now that you're done with basic topics, new videos are getting more and more interesting.
Please keep up the great work, also looking forward to Masterworks jumbo! :)
Thank you for the effort and the education.
You’re contributing to this community’s understanding and appreciation for wood, craftsmanship and music.
Thank you so much Walter!
Wow I wasn't expecting the difference to be that extreme 😮 super interesting!
Neither were we! Thanks for watching, Rhiannon 👍
I am a 40 year Alvarez fan. I bought my first 5051 in 1983 (1982 60th Anniversary edition. I also own a 1983 5051). I have a 1973 5046 w/original pickup and pots. One of these days I will have a Yairi but I have always loved the Artist Series going way back becasue Alvarez delivered a high quality affordable product that competes well against much more expensive guitars. I would put my 5051s against just about any vintage flatpicking guitar. They just push air with a creamy fat and lush mellow tone. My favorite guitar company buck for buck.
What amazing feedback, thank you @cffinch44, this has always been our goal :)
Always a treat to have new videos from you. Very informative as usual. Thanks so much for your commitment to making wonderful sounding guitars and educating us along the way!
Thank you for the support, it's a treat for us too 👍
These are the things I love about your channel. All the crazy questions and ideas we have and the ability to make them a reality.
Wow, thank you!
the intro is dreamy sounds beautiful
This is great stuff. This has become my favorite guitar channel. What an amazing difference in sound/resonance with and without tone bars. For me, the one without tone bars doesn't sound very good at all. It's like a sailboat without a rudder (or maybe without a centerboard). Of course, the other one sounds great.
Mission accomplished! Glad you enjoyed this experiment, we did too 👍
Aloha from da big island, love this channel and I just bought my first Alvarez guitar the md60evb. Waiting for it now. One question is it the same as the md60bg just electronic and color?
The one with the tone bars has what I would call a rounder or a fuller sound. The one without tone bars has a thinner sound. I would think without the tone bars the guitar top would be more susceptible to cracking.
Of course, structural rigidity leads to loss of vibration. Best guitars are built on the brink of falling apart.
Great discussion! Thank you.
Friggin’ brilliant video
Great teaching video. Always like to learn something new. While not as deep of a sound, this reminds me of a baritone guitar. My thoughts then moved back to what is always giving me GAS; anticipating the arrival of the Alvarez Archtops. Which brought up another idea. How about a baritone version of the archtops?
Thank you for the thoughts and suggestion! We'll pass that along to the team…
Wow. I had no idea that the bracing modifies the speed of sound across the top to prevent (or cause) out of phase responses from different sections. Thanks, you guys are great!
Excellent topic coverage.
This series of videos have made it pretty much a dead certainty that my next acoustic will will be a masterworks Alvarez, although they are hard to find here in Australia.
Thank you for watching! We are so happy to hear your next acoustic will be one of ours, if we can help with anything please reach out to us at info@alvarezguitars.com 👍
An aspect that isn't discussed all that often is the effect of bracing on the natural bridge rise that with time (years) due to the tension of the strings. This is naturally difficult to simulate in the near term. In addition to the modulation of tone heard here, I'd expect the top not to resist the effect of string tension on the top if it lacked tonebars
To be able to say if it sounds better or worse, you need to put it into context. If you use a guitar by itself, just guitar & vocals, then yes, you want a good balance between high and low end.
However, if you use it in a mix with other guitars and a bass and drums, most of the time, you will cut some of the low end (called "doing a high-pass") so that you hear the strumming of the strings and you let the other instruments handle the actual notes and let the bass guitar handle the low end.
In this case, having a guitar like this saves you some EQ work.
Thanks for your thoughts on this, we really appreciate it! It’s true that if you’re playing in an ensemble the last thing you want is those resonant frequencies muddying up the mix. We’re glad you stopped by to contribute!
Martin's A frame X brace from the 90's? My 1998 D-2R is a cannon, lying tonally somewhere in between a D-28 and a D-18. The top is as flat as it was when it left the factory.
alvarez yairi made in japan is really masterpiece.
We love hearing this! Glad you're enjoying you Yairi, thank you for playing Alvarez 🙌.
Amazing video what song is that begining? Something in the Orange?
I've sanded all of the bracing into a tapper on either side of the X bracing and the tone bars on two of my custom guitars- noticably more responsive- maybe a bit more sustain - after sanding the bass side lower bough X brace it added more bass.
They were already heavily scalloped so I left the height alone- I basically google Ervin Somygi guitar bracing and copied that.
I used 300 to start then went all the way up to 900 to make them glassy smooth ( just because it felt nicer I know no one will ever see it)
have a Taylor 712 and a Gs mini, both with only 1 tonebar. Very resonant.
The intro song was actually very nice
Yes, that's way too much area, in the wrong place, for not having any bracing. I would be curious to know how it would sound with just one tone bar. Heavy enough to support the top from sagging.
Thank you for your interest! We feel one tone bar could be fine for a small body guitar, but larger bodies would require two👍
@@AlvarezGuitarsOfficial
Agreed. And why change something that works anyways. And works well.
The Yairi guitars, sold by Alvarez, introduced in the 1970s, has different bracing than the standards of the time.
That actually may be a nice voiced guitar to be strung up for Nashville tuning.
Why did Alvarez stop making the PD85SCAV it was a great guitar until you went away from the cedar top to spruce😊
Cool, very informative, thank you!
From the first video I watched with these two guys, I've been looking for an alvarez, masterworks
Love to hear it Ben, thanks for tuning in!
The face of the guitar is a diaphragm. The diaphragm of a nylon string guitar and a steel string guitar are different.
They have to be because they have to be strong enough to hold the different tensions without distorting over time.
The archtop diaphragm is completely different..
Yeah it works but for how long.
There is a retention factor in the diaphragm and in the neck.
What you want is a diaphragm that does not distort over time or due to changes in temperature and humidity.
Stability may compromise tone- it's worth it.
Awesome! Thanks dudes
I’m all to familiar with the sound of an Alvarez w/o the tone bar. My RD8C from the early 2000s that I still currently own sounds similar to the guitar w/o the tone bar. Not to say that it sounds bad, but it has that quality of tone. Maybe in the near future, I would upgrade to a modern Alvarez or Yairi.
Madame De Goni's guitar is both the first signature Martin as well as the first example of the modern x-braced guitar. You can see in this video, th-cam.com/video/GYq7aGx8z_Q/w-d-xo.html, at the Martin factory there were no tone bars in this first example which had gut strings. Tone bars likely weren't added or needed until steel strings came in later models; which were around the same time. Chris Martin IV believes X-bracing was created in part as bridge pins were used to secure strings (steel) and this led to drilling into the fan braces of the time - so they kepts spreading the fans out until you get the X. You have a cool video here and a lovely sounding guitar (with tonebars) as I was curious what it would sound like without. Thanks!
That's very interesting! Thank you for watching👍
Once again, very interesting stuff! BTW when was Chris in Northampton M.A? I lived there in 1995 when I was teaching at Hampshire College, Amherst. I still have friends in the valley.
I believe he was there around 2012, what a small world, thank you for watching!
The way Chris holds the guitar & his posture is like a complete beginner would. But he can still play.
What an incredible and unmistakable difference in sound! Who'd of thunk it?
Big difference. I prefer the more open sound *without* tonebars. Perhaps the improvement in structural integrity justifies the use of if tonebars.
Interesting experiment huh? We enjoyed this one too!
Fascinating! Thanks.
I did like the openness of the guitar without the tone bars, I would love to hear one with smaller tone bars. I do like a woofy bass driven guitar. For my tastes I like the bass of a Martin HD-28
I thought you were talking about the little metal bars that they sell on Ebay for 10 bucks- glad you clarified what you were talking about- so now go get one of those 10 bars and compare what it does to the low end of your guitar.. no comparison whatsoever tonebar wins hands down. And throw your bridge pins away forever.
Excellent ❤
What about twigs or braces on the sides? Would they impact tone? Thanks for the great vids you make.
IMO you want the timber (especially the top) to be as thin as it can be, but still be strong enough to maintain its integrity. Thats why we have bracing in the 1st place. If the sides are very thin, then they may need braces (depends on shape and wood type as well). Thicker sides might not need them. Some guitars have a curve (bowl) in the back which adds strength so that they dont require bracing on the back, so, thats another way to do it. All ways are valid and one tone inst better than another, just different. Tone bar = BS, IMO. Its all just bracing for strength. If a guitar collapses without the "tone bar" then was it ever a tone bar or was it a brace.
So many tone bars in a guitar? Has the much bigger cello not only one bass bar?
There's an old saying "If it ain't broke you don't fix it" Keep the tone bars please!
Chris 'n' Dee 💐🥇🏆
Emerson, Lake & Palmer Welcome Back my Friends to the Show that Never Ends Lyrics
(Karn Evil 9: 1st Impression, Part 2)
Welcome back, my friends to the show that never ends. We're so glad you could attend! Come inside! Come inside! There behind a glass stands a real blade of grass be careful as you pass. Move along! Move along! Come inside, the show's about to start guaranteed to blow your head apart Rest a__ured you'll get your money's worth The greatest show it happens a hell-of-alot.
You've got to see the show, it's a dynamo. You've got to see the show, it's rock and roll
Right before your eyes, We'll pull laughter from the skies And he laughs until he cries, then he dies, then he dies Come inside, the show's about to start guaranteed to blow your head apart
You've got to see the show, it's a dynamo. You've got to see the show, it's rock and roll
[Instrumental]
Soon the Gypsy Queen in a glaze of Vaseline Will perform on guillotine What a scene! What a scene! Next upon the stand will you please extend a hand to Alexander's Ragtime Band Dixieland, Dixieland
Roll up! Roll up! Roll up! See the show!
Performing on a stool we've a sight to make you drool Seven virgins and a mule Keep it cool. Keep it cool. We would like it to be known the exhibits that were shown were exclusively our own. All our own. All our own. Come and see the show! Come and see the show! Come and see the show! See the show!
👍🙏✌️
you should have put a straight edge on for us to see.
You're right, we'll remember to show this next time. Thank you for watching!
@@AlvarezGuitarsOfficial it was a good video guys.
I owned a yairi Alverez with all the mother of pearl and i was on the road in Nashville and it got stolen on the road some years back and it sounded better on some songs than my Gibson J-200 i have been looking all over the states and still looking everywhere it had alot of mother of pearl with the tree of life
running all over the face of the neck and all the edges and sound hole and a Fishman double pickup plugs in where the strap button would be on the right side if you have seen this guitar and can help me cause my grandson and granddaughter should have this guitar if something was to happen to me !!!
Thank you everyone at #alvarezguitars yairi built guitars thank you everyonne...
Seriously I prefer the sound of the guitar without tonebars. It had a ring of 12 string and sounded clearer and richer then the other one. With the tonebars the guitar sounded a little bit boomy with swallowed highs in this video. If the tonebars were not important for structural integrity, I'd take the the guitar without the tonebars for sure. I am surprised myself.
Thre Alvarez without tonebars sounds better than a lot of guitars with
What a great compliment! Thank you so much for watching.
I only thought tone bars are in violins. Also called bass bar.
Ok… so what does it sound like with only one tone bar?
First guess it sounds like a lute?
Nonsuch thing as tone bars, I've never heard them being called that, its bracing plain and simple, all they do is stop the strings from pulling the guitar apart over time, in a perfect world there would be no bracing needed as the sound comes from the vibration of the top the more bracing the less vibration thats possible, so its a comprimise and a balance between structural strenght and loss of volume/sound.
I would like that for day time tv or sheep sheering videos
We'll get to work on the new sheep shearing channel… 🐑
Leave the Alvarez guitars alone hands off brother
Without the tonebars there seems to be a bit more high end.
sounds better without the tone bars !!!!
Ha, interesting! Thank you for watching :)
👍👍😎✌️🤟👏👏👏👏👏
No tone bars = Taylor signature sound. Lol 😆
❤️❤️
@@AlvarezGuitarsOfficial Gotta love a company selling Chinese imports knocking one of the best USA made guitars. You sell Chinese imports at made in México prices when Harley Benton would be a better value. You can only dream of having the annual revenue of Taylor.
The tonebar player seems to be playing much more aggressively.
Moreover, structural integrity. Do you need a video to understand my point?
looks like it makes the lower mids weak !
Keep using tonebars
Can I have the guitar you guys trashed?
Ha! We'll look into it… Thanks for watching, Bobby!
Without the tonebars, that guitar sounds like a cheap, Chinese knockoff. I assume that after only a month or two, it would become unplayable. I hear the strings cancelling out on the frets even now.
Sans tonebar is airy and full blown, sloppy and definitely not tight.
You really should work on your timing while playing duo. You know, you can train this with metronomes ...
Thanks for the advice!