What are the Nameless Things below Moria?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- “Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope (…)"
This is all that Gandalf will tell of the horrors he encountered after falling after the Balrog, into the deepest depths beneath Moria. With this mysterious statement, Gandalf manages to spark in us our curiosity and the first embers of a great fascination with the most mysterious beings in all of Arda.
But what were these monstrosities? Where did they come from and how powerful are they?
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My interpretation of these Nameless Things is simply that they were so grotesque that just looking at them traumatized Gandalf, and so in that moment of despair he mentions, the Balrog was the only semblance of the world he knew.
I think he mentions the balrog as his only hope of escaping the tunnels, rather then being particularly afraid of the nameless things.
@@BastiatC damn it says everything about the nameless ones
I believe they are beings of the Void like Ungoliant, It's heavily implied that the Void was there even before Eru sang the great song, and they are definitelly not something he would voluntarily create.
@@BastiatC why this reluctance to accept the implication of what Tolkien wrote?
It is very obvious that Gandalf himself was terrified of the creatures. So much so he never says another word on the matter- why? Because he worries that if their existence became generally known - that that knowledge would cast a shadow over all the people of the world.
By hinting at some form of Lovecraftian horror he instantly, with just a couple sentences, made middle earth richer, deeper and darker.
As mysterious as our reality is. Flowing with subtext.
Take the menace away. Make the nameless ones ugly but powerless and Gandalf's reaction is silly. Embarrassing even. Makes no sense.
@@dionmcgee5610 No my dude, he also doesn't want them to name the Balrog since names have power. Non named creatures aren't powerful. It would be far more Tolkien like if they are terrible because they are corruptions of Eru's creations.
I know Gandalf probarbly just followed the Balrog to find a way out, but I love the idea that the two Maia, who were enemies but also knew each other literally forever, teamed up for a moment to fight their way out of the depths against the nameless things.
Can't explain why but this manifested in my mind as gandalf and the balrog in a particularly heated poker game or basketball match against some ancient void beings. Real talk, if anyone below the valar could duke it with these nameless horrors briefly enough to excape them it would be an old fire wizard and an old fire demon, determined to kill each other no matter what, just not down there with those primordial freaks. While their power may be lacking to genuinely clash with such beings, I'd wager even with their ancient void strength the nameless ones got a hell of a flashbang when big G and the big B dropped in like the sun after presumed millenia in pitch darkness
@@samwisefamgee Ill second this, a high stakes poker game
@@samwisefamgee I agree, I don't think Tolkien was thinking in terms of powerscaling half as much as we do. An elf hero duelled morgoth at one point and the fight was close. In his style of storytelling, light as bright as Gandalfs and even the Balrog's fire should do well driving back things that hide from the world in a deep darkness below.
They ran! Gandalf pursued the Balrog as it fled from them
he probably said - Fly you fool
Just imagine this.
An author like JRR Tolkien who can give anything or anyone an amazing cool name with great significance and meaning behind it chose to name those things in the deep places of the world as “Nameless”
Tolkien could have given them a kickass name but he chose not to. It’s because the fear of the unknown is the biggest fear there is.
yep. somethings are so terrible that names don't fit it, or you don't want to find a name for it because you don't wanna think about it.
Very reminiscent of H. P. Lovecraft.
Same as Sauron never being described
as humans our strength is knowledge so it would make sense that our biggest fear is be the unknown
Lovecraft agrees.
I think Ungoliant was one of these creatures. She seems to predate the valar and maiar entering Arda. She has no loyalty for Morgoth. She begins as a shapeless darkness before taking a form similar to a spider. Morgoth and Sauron are characterized by their desire for order and mechanization. The nameless things are chaos and have no order.
Yes, I think this is the correct conclusion to draw. It’s been assumed for a while now that Ungoliant was a manifestation of the discord in Illuvatar’s song, so it’s reasonable that she was only one of many such beings.
They don't predate the Valar and Maiar. When Eru gathered his Valar and Maiar for the song of creation, Melkore decided to change the tune. It was because of Melkore those things were created.
@@cainabel6356 predate the valar and maiar ENTERING Arda.
Morgoth doesn't seek order and mechanization, that's just Sauron.
Morgoth only cares to corrupt and destroy Eru Ilúvatar's work, granted he needed to organize an incredibly impressive military campaign to achieve it (which in turn convinced Sauron to join him), but order was never his ultimate objective.
Wrong assumption! Ungoliant doesn't predate the valar in any way. The Valar were the first entities created from Illuvatar's thought before even the Maiar came into being. The Universe, the void, and Arda came into existence as a result of the music of the Ainur, and Ungoliant was possibly created along with the void and she remained in the void for an unfathomable amount of time before Melkor first met her in the void in his relentless pursuit of the secret fire. sho only later descended into Arda possibly thousands of years after the Valar had already made their presence known and was preparing Arda for the coming of the children of Illuvatar.
“The greatest emotion is fear, and the greatest fear of man is the fear of the unknown.”
-H.P. Lovecraft.
I’m paraphrasing, but that line is what comes to mind when I think of, read about, or hear about the Nameless Things.
Makes you wonder what would the Dwarves have unleashed if they kept digging downward.
darkness and madness...
Probably more dirt and rocks
People forget that Tolkein was really good at writing horror when it did rarely appear in the legendarium.
I mean the whole concept of the orks being twisted elves is in itself bone chilling, at least for me it always was. Imagine turning the most serene, wise and beautiful creatures in creation into... that. The LOTR movie trilogy did a good job, because live action orks are scary as fuck.
yeah he has a great sense of the deformed, how evil twists the mind and body, how ad why evil clings to darkness and shadows, and slow burning tension. he uses the uncanny valley really well to show have things are twisted against their original purpose in creation. The Nazgul, far from being these mere super soldiers in the films, and lesser entities that crawl on all fours and smell becuase of their diinished sight, and thats scarier
Yes. The Shelob's Lair passage
@@TheMeanMongoose and that is an original idea. He invented orcs. So cool
He was friends with Lovecraft, so I'm not surprised haga
Gandalf swimming out of the water with an extinguished Balrog and fighting for 8 days is a movie in itself.
Shhh! Don’t give Hollywood any ideas. I agree, but this movie is better in ny mind than any adaption could ever be.
Perhaps the stop motion director of Mad God could give it justice, but not many others.
Sadly it won't be a good movie. Peter Jackson should direct that movie not some SJW weirdo who will make gandalf trans and black and balrog into a futunari
@@KyriToe It's disgusting what they did to LOTR and everything else lefties touch.
I feel the second theory is the better one.
If Tolkein, in his finished work, had just a couple sentences that only give a simple glimpse that something so powerful exists, Gandalf specifically mentions that he had to rely on a Balrog to escape there grasp. It would be reasonable to believe they were created out of the clash of the creation music, have no master but themselves, and thus would attack both Gandalf and the Balrog.
UncleFester84s comment would also make sense for the second theory. Ungolianth only had an agreement with Melkor and upon devouring the two trees of Valinor, she turned her eyes on his power. It took every Balrog in Arda to fight her back and let Melkor escape.
I've always felt that they were mindless beasts that existed in the void. That they were neither good or evil, just primodial.
yeah they are more or less like ungoliant (who was a named nameless thing) old forgotten about ideas taken shape opposite to all illuvatar thought was nice but separate yet similar from melkors death metal antics in the choir of creation
I don't think their existence is like that. They are bound to the world at the end of the day not from beyond it.
@@ENOCH_INSPIREDJ what is meant is they existed long before illuvatar deigned to multiply into valar and maia and song and obstinately persist until after ea and arda have become last/end earth.
@@xyreniaofcthrayn1195
I disagree and reject that assumption about the Nameless Things. I don't believe their existence is like that and I don't believe Eru Illuvatar would have created something so perverse and such a defilement in existence that is dangerous to his creations like that.
@@theviewbot
The void was just nothing really. There can be no chaos in a place of just plain nothingness. Nothing so abomniablly evil about a darkness that is just nothing in it. This isn't some occult or HP Lovecraft version of creation where there is primordial chaos within the so called darkness when that isn't how things work.
It makes more sense if the Nameless Things were a product of Melkor's discord or marring of Arda. The other way around makes Eru Illuvatar look impotent when he isn't impotent and he doesn't create evil.
Before time, before everything there was nothing. Before nothing there were monsters....
Adventure Time reference?
@@eviloverlord4664 yup, gotta love The Lich
@@spoonge6682 The Lich is one of my favorite cartoon villains.
@@eviloverlord4664 same
Thanks.
I guess it's lucky the dwarves only ended up awakening a balrog
and that's saying something! "we have awoken a demon. but not the thing that is at the core of the planet, thank eru!" XD
I'm pretty convinced both Ungolianth and the Watcher in the Water are of the same "specie" of the Nameless things. The former is especially interesting because of her it is said that she arrived on the world when Melkor for the first time looked on Arda with envy, which makes me believe that she might be an incarnation of envy itself, and by definition therefore... insatiable.
The other Nameless things could also be the incarnation of emotions and feelings that came during the building of Arda, if not at the time of the Music itself. As such they would be older than Sauron in that they arrived on the world before he entered it.
that was my thought during the video, Ungoliant is the only other evil creature we know of that seems to predate melkor and his endless machinations of corrupting natural creatures, her being born of the discord of melkor is one of the more common theories I've seen about her origins.
Ungoliant was a maia, like Gandalf and Sauron.
@@KAYCEE100992 no she wasn't. She has been stated to be born of the void between worlds multiple times
The watcher in the Lake could be like Shelob. A Nameless One could have "breed" with an under water thing like Ungoliant did with the spiders. That would explain why it was not overwhelmingly dangerous and how it is not to afraid of the surface. Maybe it swam up as a baby.
Wrong notes in the song
The Balrog knew his way around down there and no Nameless Ones challenged him. He was down there slumped up for thousands of years. He or she or it wasn't bothered at all. As far as the Nameless ones, directly makes me think of H.P. Lovecraft
Tolkien's attention to detail is extraordinary.
That's the dumbest statement about Tolkien I always see... the dude left major plot holes, and couldn't hold continuity to save his life. His works are great, but let's not pretend his work was complete in the slightest
@@SmithCommaBenjamin Tell us how you really feel.
@@SmithCommaBenjamin You probably work for Amazon
Please give examples.@@SmithCommaBenjamin
I think Tolkien did a great job of adding an element of mystery and depth to the already amazing and mysterious world he created. In a way he left it up to us to imagine something that only we could come up with. Each one of us takes what we know about middle Earth and our interpretations of it and we come up with an idea of what these nameless things could be. Tolkien sort of gives us the ability to create or add to the lore of middle Earth ourselves. In essence we can write the story along with him. We can go on this journey together and it's lets us immerse ourselves even more into this amazing world we have grown to love.
When even a character like Gandalf encounters things he doesn't really know about, but what he does know terrifies him
If the nameless things were actually created when the discord of Melkor corrupting the songs of Eru Illuvatar and the Aiunar and they entered Arda at that time, then Tom Bombadil also during the concord of the Ainur could also have been created and entered Arda, which would explain that he is the oldest good being and has no father. Can you delve into 'that' theory? Excellent video btw.
A wonderful theory, and yes, we will indeed touch upon Tom Bombadil in a future episode 😉
Perhaps Tom battled them in the primordial darkness and whooped them good so they went to hide in the deepest, darkest hole from him
Well, if the nameless was created in the discord between Eru Illuvatar and Melkors songs, then it makes sense that not only evil, but also some good if unplanned beings was created. That could be Tom's backstory.
Speak not of the nameless things.
For to speak of them, is to try to know them.
This grants their attention.
And they will try to know you.
The nameless things, I suspect, are "older than Sauron"... in the sense that they predate his KNOWLEDGE. They were in/under middle Earth before he left the undying lands. Possibly like Bombadil, they are an emergent expression of that deep under-realm.
This I agree with. It's the only way to make it make sense, since the Maiar and Valar predate the universe... and Time itself.
Arda didn't come from nothing surely there must of been a unknown species there, before the Valar decided to create everything out of something. Nameless species prolly fled to the deep.
Well the only individual that could have created them would have had to have been Illuvitar himself. Creatures that would potentially be as old as the Valar. Ungoliant HAD to come from somewhere afterall, and if she exists then there must be others like her. Presenting a sort of an antithesis to the Valar.
@@B.Scruby I am of the opinion that Ungoliant was a being of the same order as Bombadil... A manifestation or avatar of a basic elementary property of Arda... Bombadil is a manifestation of Life and the Joy of Life. Ungoliant of Hunger and Avarice. The Nameless things in turn of what ever exists in their realm below the roots of the mountains.
@Grant Hudson Arda was the result of Eru and its shaping the result of Eru's and Melkor's songs. Then the Valar came down and remodeled and interior decorated... some fung shui.
The Nameless Things were older than Sauron because the concepts of Age and Time only exist in Ea. Even though Sauron helped sing the music that brought them into being, he did so from within the Timeless Halls. The Nameless things existed in the world and began to age before Sauron and the other Maiar and Valar descended into it.
this is your personal interpretation and sorry to say but it's wrong... nothing existed before the music , the Ainur were the absolute first creations of Eru Iluvatar , and later he created a round mass called Arda .... read the Silmarillion and you will learn what you just said is a misconception.
@@peppinogatsumiyamoto4117 "Nothing existed before..." Even if that was his intention, no one can alter the limitations of logic and the inability our own minds have in conceiving what the fundamental nature of reality is- and the inner meanings of concepts like "infinity" and "before time".
There is no way of contemplating what existed before our perceived reality was created, intentionally or not. Logic fails us because we are foundationally unable to see beyond what our own evolutionary flawed various senses tell us.
We can intuit and feel our way to a meaning or closer understanding of this subatomic mist of a world wherein we live- but there is no empirically provable final analysis to be offered.
Even atheists seem to be ignoring what the newest information on the cognizant sciences has been revealing to us.
A reality more quantum mechanics than traditional science in how it works.
The only absolute was the one Descarte proposed a few centuries ago, everything else is conjecture and presumption- even the atheists ideal.
Reality is functionally unknowable.
@@peppinogatsumiyamoto4117 They created the music but did not immediately descend into it. If you recall words were spoken by Eru and they spent some "time" for lack of a better word admiring the creation. You dont know what that equated to in-universe in the created world. Therefore, the guy you are disagreeing with not only is definately correct, Ive never heard it explained more accurately or simply.
@@jonathonfrazier6622 no man , we are talking about different things... if we mean that these creatures were in Arda before the Valar, well this is true... but they were not ALIVE before the Valar as i said already...
@@peppinogatsumiyamoto4117 Thats not what we are talking about. This is acwell discussed topic in Tolkien circles. I would think you would be familiar with it.
Great, and the reference to Gandalf's speech regarding the one ring is well taken. That Gandalf was relying on Durin's Bane to make it out of there tells you something.
I also like how hesitant he is to even speak of them and careful not to say too much. Some things are just not meant for the minds of mortals, which is a very prevalent concept in cosmic horror.
Could it be said too that he knew not the way out which is why he followed the Balrog... sort of like Bilbo following Gollum out of the deeps of the Misty Mountains
@@sakemp3480 Yes, that would make sense. I can't image, however, that the Balrog would have been retreating from Gandalf. So we have the Balrog just getting out of there and Gandalf trying to keep up to prevent from getting lost.
@@chojinnppp He ran from Gandalf because his flame died... he wasn't the same after the cold bath he took from the fall. He needed time to reignite
I didn’t know there was a Lovecraftian aspect in Tolkien’s world. I love cosmic horror like that. Something beyond mere demons and evil gods. Beings that cannot be comprehended, having forms beyond anything ever seen, and some no form at all.
Eru Ilúvatar created from nothing, bringing Order to a ceaseless void of Chaos. Perhaps the remnants of Chaos corrupted the spirits and transformed them into the Nameless Ones. Becoming evil beyond all other Dark Lords. Existing only to sow terror in the hearts of those that witness them.
Moria in general is just the most terrifying thing about LOTR to me, even more so than he likes of Sauron or Shelob. So, guess I have a brand new thing to fear them for 😅
Being stuck underground alone is terrifying. Being stuck underground surrounded by things that existed before names is a whole new level of horror.
I suppose Utumno was far worse.
@@noldorwarrior7791 Only if you were an elf. Orcs and Maiar at least are named.
isnt shelob a "nameless thing" also? or from where they are from? look up a book accurate shelob. She isnt just a giant spider its sick
If the Balrog stayed underneath Moria for thousands of years, you would think he would've dig deeper, but no.
Maybe he did for a time but after feeling the presence of them nameless things, he stopped. Probably saying "It's not worth it."
And then years later, he fell during a fight and not only running away from Gandalf (for a time) but also he doesn't wanna be trapped between an old goofy man and things that are even more powerful than the two of them.
And the fact that the Balrog unironically saved the dwarves from digging deep to see this nightmarish creatures.
To me, the phrasing by Gandalf always made me think of H.P. Lovecraft, and how he alluded to nameless eldritch horrors that were beyond any sort of description. I'd like to think that somehow the writing of those two authors somehow existed in the same universe.
I'm surprised that Lovecraft didn't come up even more in the comments. I wouldn't be surprised that much of the artwork in this video of the "old ones" wasn't inspired at all by Tolkien, but rather by Lovecraft, but the description doesn't link to the individual slides, unless I'm missing something.
Did they not though? I recall someone saying Lovecraft and Tolkien was really good friends.
@@bulletsquier There is absolutely no evidence to suggest they ever even met.
@@Wintertalent There is no possibility that Tolkien and Lovecraft were acquainted with each other. Aside from Lovecraft being mostly a shut in- Tolkien's devout christianity would have antagonized Lovecraft's deep pessimism of the human race. Misanthropes and christians don't have a lot in common.
However, Tolkien certainly would have heard or read about Lovecraft's mythos. Mythology was a great interest to him and as a voracious reader, he very likely would have read something of Lovecrafts work. Probably not very much, but then again, those of us who grew up loving books tend to read everything we can- especially in the genres we prefer.
And if Tolkien himself never read Lovecraft- one of his many book loving friends would have had to tell him about the Cthulhu mythos concept.
It's too close to Tolkiens area of expertise to have gone unnoticed - and those few lines of intrigue are Tolkien responding to it. Assimilating Lovecraft into his work- just like so many other writers have done. Myself included, recreationally.
@@dionmcgee5610 Or both Tolkien and Lovecraft were inspired by someone else that came before them.
I believe the 'Nameless Things' wereon par, power-wise, with Ungoliant. Ungoliant is thought to also be a result of the disharmony of the Music. If so, the Nameless Things are very strong. Remember Ungoliant aided Morgoth as equals, turned on him and almost destroyed him. And Morgoth far exceeded the power of the maia, so Gandalf and the Balrog had good reason to be afraid.
Everyone from that era had "nameless elder things" lurking in the dark. Makes you wonder if he was a fan of Lovercraft too.
Wow! I'm feeling Lovecraft's vibes!
Apparently he and Lovecraft read a lot of the same books
You are misinterpreting Gandalf's comments and grossly exaggerating the "power" of these beings. He didn't want to speak about them because he found them dark and disturbing. If they were so menacing and terrible in might as is suggested here, then Gandalf and the Balrog would have been destroyed as they passed through their domain. The nameless things are just dark remnants of Melkors discord. They aren't all powerful dark gods or anything try-hard like that. Gandalf simply didn't want to think about them in the same way anyone wouldn't want to be reminded of something disturbing and traumatizing and he saw no need to convey his experience further.
Maybe they are just like ungoliant: she got so big and greedy that she ate herself. Not all evil translates into world domination like morgoth
I think it's open to interpretation. But I agree with yours. The Watcher was one of those nameless things. So they are less like Chthonic old gods and more like corruption of the natural world. Ungoliant was also one of these "things"
Agreed. Time doesn't really exist outside of the created world, so "older than" really only makes sense in terms of when a being entered creation. These things might be a bit like a chaotic evil and aberrant version of Tom Bombadil in that sense.
What makes you a professional
@@StarShadowPrimal I've had the same thought about Bombadil. Old Man Willow, and the Ents as well, I believe.
What of the watcher in the water? Was it one of these nameless things that the Barlog placed there. Perhaps he brought it up from the mines to guard the west gate.
In the books, we only see the watcher's tentacles. Which are semi-translucent and pulsating with strange light. It's likely that the main body of the watcher is deep underground and the tentacles are feelers being sent up through cracks in the earth.
Also, the Balrog as no allegiance with the Nameless nor can it control them. They are primordial entities that existed within the Void before Iluvatar began his Song, making them more ancient then even the Valar.
Before the great singing of Creation into being, I believe that these were the forms of discords and forms of disharmonies that Melkor sang into being. Far beyond the powers of the Miaer. Good job. Great voice for a Story Teller and Bard. I bet you speak Elvish, too.
Problem is melkor explicitly did not have the power to create anything, only to corrupt
@@arasdabear8785 but this was made by DISSONANCE. a MIXED EFFORT if you will, by everyone. melkor didn't create it, he was just a part of it. i was I believe at least. :)
I think Tolkien is both paying homage to Cosmic Horror here aswell as tying in aspects of other religions. Níðhöggr and the other lindworms of Norse religion are enormous serpent like creatures that gnaw on the roots of the world, not only that but Níðhöggr specifically has an ongoing enemy that is a giant eagle. I believe the beings are unknowable and nameless as a nod too Cosmic horror but also tied into the concept of the lindworm of Norse mythology with tunneling and gnawing on the roots of the world.
I do not believe the nameless things are HP Lovecraft kind of horror. That's not how JRR Tolkien thinks about creation nor does he think a chaotic creation like HP Lovercraft does.
@@ENOCH_INSPIREDJ you can't know what tolkien though, no matter how much you know about him.
@@wolfyboy
He's catholic for one and his general principle is "evil cannot create only mock". This isn't some outer god cosmic horror nonsense nor some primordial chaos nonsense. Those are doctrines he doesn't abide by. You can clearly see by his creation story with Eru Illuvatar for two is proof against that silly notion.
@@ENOCH_INSPIREDJ just because he was religious doesn't mean he couldn't have used other things in his works. also, melkor didn't make the nameless ones, he was just a part. every part is equally important in the creation, as it was the dissonance that did it. eru laid the foundation, and the good guys and bad guys created the cake. and in the middle of that cake, is the nasty, uncooked, rotten bits.
I mean it's just my thoughts in what I've read, I'm probably well off the mark and I cant exactly ask the man. But just because he was a Christian does not mean that he would not give a nod to a fellow great writer by including literally unknowable beings of gloom, nor that he wouldnt base those beings loosely on mythological beings of other countries and ancient religions lest we be forgetting that both the race of dwarves and elves at the very minimum come from Tolkiens reading and understanding of Norse Mythology.
Perhaps the Nameless Things are logical possibilities perceived by Eru but never morally allowed - which the discord allowed to be 'perceived' in the real world. Perhaps then they seek to gnaw upon 'reality' by making the created succumb to instead observing their horrid unreal possibilities - in some ways not unlike Melkor; just worse than what Eru would allow to ever properly exist.
If Ungoliant was originally a Nameless Thing this would paint their experience differently - she may have overpowered Morgoth after consuming the trees merely because, for even a moment, he believed it possible she could at that point.
This could also mean that Gandalf's hopes lied only in his enemy - because the fullness of his attention being spent on surviving the Balrog meant he could not be given a second to perceive the Nameless Ones' endless horrifying unrealities - and Durin's Bane knew the tunnels. Perhaps only Balrogs that clung absolutely onto Morgoth's own unreality could not be consumed by the Nameless Things other unrealities.
Or not.
I always thought that these lines from Saruman in the Return of the King Extended version was about the Nameless Ones. "Something festers in the heart of Middle-Earth. Something that you have failed to see. But the Great Eye has seen it. Even now he presses his advantage. His attack will come soon. You're all going to die. But you know this don't you, Gandalf?".
Somewhere in one of the “director’s cut” or similar versions of ROTK, Peter Jackson said this quote refers to Denethor.
Specifically, it refers to Sauron’s corruption of Denethor. Sauron could not bend Denethor to his will but he screwed up Denethor’s mind enough to make Denethor a liability to Gondor.
When Gandalf says "In that despair my enemy was my only hope", is he suggesting he and the Balrog somehow teamed up to escape the Nameless Ones?
I always tought that gandalf "follows" the balrog to get out... his hope was not loosing the trail, since the balrog knows the exit. My two cents :D
@@sebastianfuentes3482 That is my interpretation as well. In fact, it might suggest that the Nameless Ones are sub-Maiar in strength, as they were unable impede either the Balrog or Gandalf.
I think more likely that the Balrog knew the wy back to the surface.
@@sampetrie340 doubt it, the way gandalf described them made them seem powerful, more than likely the balrog was tanking hits as he escaped and gandalf followed it. It was weakened to the point where gandalf could defeat it.
@@friedit7862 So you think that Gandalf would have been unable to defeat the Balrog without the Nameless Ones weakening it first? Interesting idea, and certainly possible…. Although if true, you have to wonder why Duran’s Bane was fleeing from Gandalf in the first place…
I think they are of an older version of the universe. They were in Ea like bacteria is in everything. They are deep down there and don't interfere. More mystery. More things unknown. Was this JRR's shout-out to Lovecraft? If so, that's friggin awesome.
Glad your channel was in my feed. Looking forward to your other videos, especially the Aragorn video.
Wow, I’m glad I found this new LOTR page! You deserve WAY more subs!
Very interesting analysis and well-done video. Thanks for the excellent content. I have subscribed and look forward to more.
My only real response to this is to think that perhaps the nameless things were more horrfyingly grotesque than powerful. It seems that the Balrog knew the ways through their tunnels well, which implies that they were not more powerful than itself, and, by extension, not more powerful than Gandalf. Rather, l interpret what Gandalf said more in the spirit of them causing a deep existential disgust. That they were offensive on a level beyond that of the merely evil and/or powerful. One can only dimly imagine how horrifying they must have been to look upon, for someone as dedicated to life and light and beauty as Gandalf.
Tolkien is as powerful for what he doesn't explain as for what he does.
Anyway, l have often wondered if the Watcher in the water in the pool outside the gates of Moria might have been akin to the nameless things beneath it in some way.
Thank you for this wonderful comment!
As far as the lore goes, your interpretation is exactly as valid as ours 😉 A very good analysis!
As for the Watcher in the Water, we will definitely do a future episode on that!
@@MysteriesOfWesternesse I look forward to it!
i agree. something that was not made by evil, but by DISSONANCE, would be intolorable to look at, because it is WRONG, in every way!
YASSSS WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN!? good stuff right here will be following all your content 🎉
Judging by the music you chose for the background, your mind also went to Lovecraft. I wonder whether the Nameless Ones were the same 'race' as Illuvatar. Tolkien almost definitely knew of and read Lovecraft and Dunsany, so this might be a possibility he entertained at some point.
I think Tolkien would strongly disagree with this notion. To him, Illuvatar was the one allmighty God of Christianity. The odea of eldrich Gods would be completely alien to his world view.
@@TheSorrel I agree. There's never a hint I've heard of that there was some part of Arda that wasn't ultimately from Iluvatar himself.
I really can't imagine Tolkien reading Lovecraft. I think you are mistaken in that.
@@john.premose Why not? He almost definitely read Dunsany's work which The Silmarillion makes pretty obvious, and Lovecraft is only a hop, skip, and a jump away. On the other hand, Tolkien could just have come up with the idea of nameless horrors beyond description in a literary vacuum.
@@john.premose Well, he was aware and had read the works of Robert E Howard, and that's not very far away from Lovecraft himself.
I keep thinking of Lovecraft while watching this. He was writing about these sort of creatures in the mid 1920s.
A hint of Lovecraft in the writings of Tolkien.
There is/was a Nameless One with a name: Ungoliant.
That's a possibility. Where did she come from? She could be of the same or a similar strain and simply encountered Morgoth and spoke with him and either named herself or was named by Morgoth.
The narration and work put into this video is extraordinary! Watching from Albuquerque, New Mexico
I find it interesting how Tolkien wrote about so many creatures/entities that he left completely unstated where they came from. I believe that he stated that Eru created everything, but at no point does he mention him creating any of those creatures, or how they otherwise came into being. Tom Bombadil has no backstory of any kind, Ungoliant has no backstory of any kind (other than perhaps an extremely vague allusion of her coming "from the Darkness", whatever that means), and these nameless things below Moria, only mentioned briefly in a single passage.
I remember coming up with a short story as a kid based off someone falling into a pit full of creatures so powerful that they completely ignored the character. Not sure how it ended.
Excellent presentation once more dear Sir! Thank-you!
I think one of the conceits many of us hold, is a view to measuring everything by virtue of a "power scale".
I think it may be unnecessary to do so in this circumstance (and others) though.
It's quite common (and entertaining) for us to devise lists, charts, etc that 'rate' items, people, creatures and such, by virtue of their position on a scale.
In some circumstances though, such as this topic, I feel it's probably a fruitless endeavour.
The "nameless things" are, by virtue of their titled depiction, an enigma. One that perhaps eludes measurement and therefore are to be taken as an "event" more so than "beings".
This provides them with a horrifying allure, that circumvents need for literal description or depiction. It's enough to know that even Gandalf was frightened by them. Any hope for mere mortals to successfully confront them is moot.
This contradicts our nature for desiring to catalogue everything but sometimes, mysteries are best served shrouded. :)
Maybe they're like the dark gods of HP Lovecraft's mythos? But if they were created from the disharmony notes of Melkor, then they're the Discordant Ones, causing despair where there was hope, bringing sadness where there was joy, bringing darkness where there was light.
Need some on screen thriller/horror about these. Even in a rings of power episode
A thoughtful point is Melkor, Aule, and Ulmo had to have known of the Nameless Ones. Melkor lifted 3 gigantic mountains which I'm sure disturbed the Nameless. Ulmo is the master of the seas and the waters go everywhere. Lastly Aule is master of earth and all underneath... so he had to have known things were moving
Duded this is Amazing! Love the Video! You got my Sub! From a Fellow Tolkien TH-camr! ;D Keep it up Bro!
Thanks man! Really liked your Tolkien Reading Day video. Wonderfully relaxing!
This made me think: what happened after Sauron’s defeat? All the heroes just left but things like the Balrog may still be lurking beneath the Earth: did they just leave these horrors and other nameless things for future, likely ignorant and clueless generations, to deal with when such foes became myth?
So to me the oliophant in the room is that between the creation of the Ainur and the singing of Arda into existence is that Melkor traveled into the void and was different on his return, to me this has always linked well with the nameless things that may be things Aluvatar created before the Ainur or things more akin to Aluvatar himself.
I see what you did there
Sounds like that song " Meet me in the woods tonight" by Lord Huron.
Tolkien and Lovecraft were born around the same time- is it possible they were reading each other's works and drawing inspiration?
it's possible. although i doubt tolkien though highly of lovercraft as lovercraft was a MASSIVE racist, and tolkien (to my knowledge) was NOT.
@@wolfyboy I think the only way that would have happened would be if Lovecraft had somehow read The Hobbit, which is unlikely being as he died in March 15 1937, The Hobbit was first published in September 21 1937.
Or if Tolkien had come across some pulps that first published Lovecraft's stories in the 1920's and 1930's.
moria is like a classic dwarf fortress game where they had fun trying to get more candy
Someone mentioned Tom and I believe he is a character that knows he exists outside the world of Middle Earth.
He refers to himself as Eldest and Fatherless and First... because in fact he is a character that was made before any other character of the LOTR series. He is present in other stories that predate it.
Or he is literally an embodiment of Chaos, since Tolkien was inspired by Norse Mythology, he could be the very representation of Ginnungagap, Yawning Void. His piece of the world is a "void" within the realms of Middle Earth. His forest is untouched and unclaimed with he as it's chaotic ruler.
Well, at least Tom isn't Nyarlathotep.
The nameless ones could be Jörmungandr and Níðhöggr.
The unknowable things that dwell deep.
Very cool man. Tolkien’s works and other fantasy stories benefit by having creatures that are outside the norms of creation. Things that clash with good and evil. Creatures that have unknown power and origins shake things up a bit. Thanks for an enjoyable experience.
Hearing the second theory that they arose from the clash during the music, having no master but only being inherently evil, makes me think about the origin of Ungoliant and if they were equals but in great numbers. That would even make Gandalf's remarks an understatement
Imagination of the reader is an important piece of a great story.
I always thought the nameless things beneath moria were just animals and plants that hadn't been seen before. Kind of like deep sea creatures in our world. LOTR and tokens work in general has a much more simplistic theme of good vs. Evil without special nuances to it. He doesn't really seem like the kind of writer that would take inspiration from Lovecraft and go the route of cosmic horror, or fear of the unknown.
counterpoint, the Watcher in the Water & Ungoliant exist
@Panniguin that's not a counterpoint, neither of those things fall under the category of cosmic horror. They're neither unknown, nor mysterious. The only thing that gives them that quality is that they have loosely understood origins
I've heard of Ungoliant being described as a 'primordial'. Makes you wonder..... what are the odds that she was one of the Nameless Things, that got out so-to-speak?
I don't think Gandalf meant that it would literally magically block out the sun if he spoke of them. I think he just meant metaphorically it would darken everyone's day.
I think, this inner worlds of Arda is the realm of Lovecraft...
The nameless ones existed in the primordial chaos before Illuvitar entered the void and brought forth his creations through the melodies and song. And it is only by his will and power that these unknowable abominations are held at bay from devouring all existence and returning things back into the formless chaotic void.
Then they are unreality given form. The death of the universe, in the flesh. Try wrapping your head around that.
@the guy behind you what should concern all is that Illuvitar himself had to have escaped or separated himself from the things that existed before light and matter. Meaning he is one of them. But evolved into Tolkiens God almighty.
@@smartassforhire this is interesting. Tolkien says that Eru, The One, is an exact definition of who and what He is: the only one to truly exist. Yet, it makes sense that while the Nameless ones existed after Iluvatar, they are born from an ancient primordial matter, as old as Iluvatar himself. And in Ëa, older things are more porweful than whatever succeed them. Iluvatar is the One, and the Nameless ones were permitted to exist.
@@smartassforhire Makes you wonder about the origin of the real life God...
Maybe it just means that they came to arda before sauron did. That's one way they could be "older," since outside of the created world it is timeless. They could be of the ilk of Ungoliant.... creatures that were of the darkness but separated from melkor..
I believe that they are of the same origin as ungolianth, the by-product that came to be when the music of the ainur and the discord of melkor got mixed up. Embodiments of true chaos.
Perhaps there is not just nameless ones who are below Moria. Perhaps there is entire dimension under Moria. Something like Upside down from "Stranger Things" or the Dark aether from Call of Duty Black Ops Cold War. It's just a theory but that would make sense because in this case they would never been made by neither Eru nor Melkor, they would be creatures from the different Universe that was located below Moria.
Cthulu! Tolkien does do good horror but he I am confident chose not to go too far down that path, while occasionally hinting at horrors Lovecraft would have been proud of. The Baldor story is a case in point, on the threshold of death he tried to claw his way through a door behind which were unspeakable horrors practising human sacrifice, whilst at the same time other unspeakable horrors broke his legs so that he couldn't escape them. Then there is the horror of the orcs' creation, and although Tolkien strayed from it but didn't altogether dismiss it, the implication is that captured elves (or humans) were forced under extreme torture to mate with (pre?)orcs or other monstrous entities to create the orc race. Shelob is a horrific creation too, as was her mother the hideous Ungoliant. The elven kinslaying is a horrific story which has enormous ramifications throughout the legendarium. So the nameless ones was another horrific thread and Lovecraft-like, was something glimpsed rather than elaborated on, which raises the horror of unfamiliarity and mystery. Credit to LOTRO for representing horrific nameless ones living at the very roots of Moria at the base of the Endless Stair.
I think you make a good point about their age pre-dating Sauron, one of the only facts Gandalf (and Tolkien) give us about them. However, if some were under the control of Morgoth, it isn't at all clear how or where or when they were deployed in his service. And as for their (ghastly) impact on Middle Earth, (they despaired the hell out of Gandalf), this again isn't clear as the Moria dwarves hadn't apparently come across them. Chilling nonetheless.
Cthulhu was first mentioned in the 1920s LOTR was started in the 1930's nameless horrors know no bounds and we do not know them
ive only watched 30 min or so of the first movie but im hooked on these lil vids
If anyone is interested the song in the background is called : Cthulhu Awakens - Apollon de Moura
Love your narration!
I'm dreaming up a story for Gandalf's time with the Balrog in the bones and stones of Arda. Would make a great game with levels representing the farther down they go and face the nameless things and each other eventually culminating in the final battle. The fact that Gandalf dies, comes back and wont speak about it would give you full creative licence to explore those depths and introduce an entire new sub plot with these creatures and not mess with the canon.
Among the many mysteries of middle earth, there are unconfirmed named Nameless things
Ungoliant a being at her full power easily threatened the strongest Valar and took a legion of fire demons ie balrogs to push back
The Watcher in the water an evil monster who might have slipped thru a small well and took up residence outside the lake to moria
And Tom Bombadil who was there when the earth was young, before even the dark lords descended
Hard not to think of the book by von Junzt, Unaussprechlichen Kulten (Nameless Cults). I hope that the story of the Nameless Things summarized in this video will soon be discovered in an ancient tome in the Tolkien estate archives that he was translating.
They remind me of the forgotten ones Arthas met in his campaign in the north to help the lich king.
Great video, I actually like to think that they were ancient servants of Melkor
“There are older and fouler things than Orcs, in the deep places of the world.”
To me, these nameless things are broken figments of Iluvatar's first song, like bugs in the Matrix. Glitches in the fabric of the universe the Middle Earth is located in. Tom Bombadil also belongs to this category, but he chose light instead of darkness.
So far as the power of the Nameless Ones, one thing we do know is that they were not able to prevent the passage through their realm of of the two Maiar, Gandalf and Duran’s Bane. This suggests they were sub-Maiar in power. As Hulk might say, “puny gods”.
or maybe they didn't try/couldn't be bothered? or they weren't fast enough. or less powerful, as you say. we don't know. that's what's so annoying and tantelizing about it! XD
@@wolfyboy Indeed, there are many possible reasons why the Nameless Ones failed to stop the two Maia. Maybe they weren’t strong enough or even malevolent, just repulsive in appearance. Maybe the brawling Maia ‘s sudden appearance caught them by surprise (I certainly would have been caught off guard! 😮). As you said, insufficient evidence.
Although another thing to consider… even after the Balrog was eliminated, the Nameless Ones did not return out of the depths. Why was that? It is a blurred distinction between being unwilling and being unable.
When I was younger I tried contemplating these things, so I would think about the superficial sides like: I can't imagine being the low-class dwarves digging these mines like... you know boss, I think we may have gone a bit far??? We've found a tunnel about 20 miles into the earth, There's probably something really bad down here????
My interpretation of the nameless ones is that he wrote that so if he wanted to he could come back and write more content after he finished the main story. Like a new book or new story altogether.
poor nameless things... enjoying their cold spring bath in the perfect pitch black caves... then suddenly an angel and demon crashed down and spewed divine bolts against each other hitting everything on site. must have been terrifying for those poor little creatures... it's a good thing those two decided to fight elsewhere
kinda like you're sitting quietly in your home then suddenly a cop and a robber violently crashed inside and started firing bullets at each other... scary right?
that's what i think how the nameless things felt.
"ThIs uSed To bE A nIce VOid!" XD
Anther interpretation of older than sauron is they were here on middle Earth before sauron descended to middle Earth along with the valar
I have took to reading tolkein every Friday. So far I start with the Silmarillion and go to the fall of numenor now, tales from a perilous realm unfinished tale All the way to return of the king. Every time I pass I find new things. This is new…. Thank you
What a beautiful velvety voice, it's a pleasure to listen it
Sauron was/is a Maiar made before the universe/world of middle earth
Maybe they mean these beings/creatures have lived on middle earth longer than Sauron
This is like Tolkien meets Lovecraft.
I like to thing that when the Dong was first sung, Eru sang a certain tempo and created the world, cleared his through leading to the nameless things and Ungoliant esk creatures, then after clearing his voice sung the Ainur into existence.
I assumed that by "older than Sauron" they mean Sauron's age since he arrived in physical form.
i believe so. as sauron did not PHYSICALLY enter the physical world until later, while the namesless things were either put into the world, or moved into the world by themselves at the begining.
No it's called an octopus or giant squid. Duh everyone knows that
Did it surprised me? It terrified me.
I think there are things that can be older than sauron. Sauron was Maia of aüle. So he was created after the valar were created. I'm pretty sure I read that in the silmarillion
Gandalf spent 8 days pursuing the balrog. Surely during that time they lost sight of each other, had to sleep, eat, navigate winding tunnels in pitch darkness, their own use of light potentially betraying their respective locations. A prolonged cat & mouse battle of ambushes, reverse ambushes, guerilla warfare, and having to unexpectedly see these monstrosities in the middle of that would have been extremely harrowing. Imagine specifically what it would have been like for Gandalf to discover one of these for the first time.
The best way to make something terrifying is to give it only a brief description. Let the audience fill in the details with their own imagination. Like how they used the alien in the original movie Alien. You barely saw the thing and it was far more terrifying for it.
I like the idea of the clashes of the devine music!
Wait...Ungoliant came from the Void, implying that there were other sentient things outside of Ea...Melkor went out into the Void, looking for the Imperishable Flame--but what he found may have driven him mad from the revelation....
it is not explicitly stated, but it is suggested that his time there had a corrupting influence on him and may have contributed to his eventual fall into evil
The Nameless Ones were likely created by the chaotic Void, similiar to Ungoliant, and were not servants of Melkor or Sauron, or anyone else.
I like to think that Tolkien, as many other writers older and younger than him, have given hints of our reality being a contained creation within an endless void that has always existed. And that god, the gods, Eru-Iluvatar, among other omnipotent creators of literature, religious and not, were beings that originated from this eternal endless void and decided to manifest light, matter, and life, among other things. But the void is always seeking to remain untouched, and in many manners it infects these creations in hopes to consume them in the long run. We can all read hints of this eternal void, well of all energy and possibilities, in many works. I like to think of Sumerian writings, Judeo-christian legends, Lovecraft, King, and even contemporary games such as Warhammer and Warcraft.