Great video as ever. Many many years ago when I was training I used to try this 1 min method and the 1/2 a revolution method also. The results were the same as you found. It’s the same results.
Hi Derek, excellent video as always, Our Gas Rate APP has a massive download because we always had 1 or 2 minuet choice. The EU has always been ONE minuet only the UK was different as usual. Hope to see you Wednesday Thursday afternoon, George Mr Combi👍🤩
Spot on,and gas rating on a 20 year old gas meter that's never been calibrated since it was installed,yet we have to use this to determine if an appliance is working correctly ! Doesn't sit quite right!
So glad you read these technical bulletins ..really keeps the rest of us current, sweep test, flue integrity tests, tick box lists. etc. are we informed of these on the ACS... nope ..se ducts u ducts never seen one in my life but i get tested on every 5 yr resit. We should be trained and tested on the changes in the previous 5 years ....rant over....
I am a retired UKAS Electrical, Temperature & Pressure Calibration engineer, I would have performed a 1 minute test from cold, then a 2 minutes test from cold then see IF there's any difference, just curious, if by not letting the system run for a while might indicate a difference due to heating up say from 20°C taking the New Standard as a test 1 minute without performing a 2 minutes warm up 🤔 there might be a difference then ? In the past serviced & Repaired Kane Instruments Boiler Analysers,
I have spoken to the guy who came up with the timings for gas rating. He said the only reason they made it 2 minutes long was because of the E6 meters. He said because it was a digital reading they couldn’t get it accurate unless they ran it for 2 minutes. He said temperature only made a minuscule difference.
I’ve done this for years, being commercial, a building like a swimming pool will run 24/7, 365 days of the year. I could switch the boiler off and sit there for hours and still not get a 2 minute run time. So, rather than not rate at all, I do make a note of the reading at 1 minute.
Been doing it for years.. so often in the summer you struggle to get rid of heat quick enough .. we all have to live in the real world, we are engineers and as such make decisions based on the situation at the time
Mr Combi app you can reduce to 1 minute, makes sense to me especially if customers are turning down all trvs, nothing worse boiler cutting off half way throgh gas rate
I have wondered for years now why we gas rate modern HE boilers at all, as you can't adjust the gas rate? All you can do is adjust the ratios, so if your ratios are right then your gas rate is right. Thoughts on this?
For me it’s the other away around. Correct gas rate correct ratio. Gas rating tells you if the appliance is over gassed or under gassed which is very important to help stop an unsafe situation. Also you shouldn’t change the ratio on a boiler unless you are converting from Nat gas to lpg or the other way around this is now in the unsafe situations igem/g/11. Also you adjust the gas rate all the time with modern boilers even turning the flow temperature down or up adjusts the heat input also range rating the boiler will do the same.
I had a gas safe inspection a few weeks ago. I asked the accessor about saying people gas rate for one minute. Then double. He said no way there a a few reasons why it must be two minutes.
We gas rate loads of systems that’s got 8/10mm minibore choked up within an inch of its life, you can barely get 30 seconds out of some them before they cut out. It’s a bloody nightmare.
Hi Derek, im wanting a combi boiler moved from the loft, down to the kitchen, on ground floor. Would that cause any boiler problems? Would you see any issues with that?
I read the TB last week and it seemed to me, that this is about cutting down on CO2 output and gas usage by 50% when gas engineers are gas rating... Oh well.. what ever.. one minute it is then.. We'll soon be at zero CO2 guys... !! 😂
what's your estimate of Percentage U6 or older meters that are still in use! a few years ago one place I was working had a problem with the gas and the Board found a Victorian meter in the Seller it was lacking a bit to much!
Derrick, please hear my confession! Ok, hands up; I've only been timing for 1 minute for years after basically doing exactly the same tests as you Derick. On metric meter only though. I don't feel so bad now that I've confessed 😊 Chris Walker CGas Ltd
Like many installers I've taken readings at 1minuite and at 2 minutes and compared the results. Same with Imperial meters,.5 and 1cu.ft It's just to ensure I haven't made a silly mistake. With "smart " meters, I look to do more than one 2min. test to confirm the figures!
Gas rating has become a bit of a joke in recent years. Our compliance officers will give you a black mark if your gr isn’t within 10% under and 5% over. Even though the only TB that I can find says this is just an industry acceptable standard. I can’t find anywhere in the actual regs that it mentions these figures. We are told that outside of this we must AR the boiler. But the recent trend has been for builders to put 35kw combis in tiny houses and flats. You run every tap full rate and can’t get 35kw. My argument is well where is the risk? You say it’s AR so tell me what’s dangerous? No answer. Also you can take the same boiler on LPG and there isn’t even a meter to gas rate yet it’s deemed safe, but you’d fail an inspection with exactly the same boiler on a meter if you didn’t gas rate it. It’s a complete shambles and needs completely re writing to say that an engineer should be able to use their judgement. I’ve had to AR 30kw combis running at 26.90 that are working perfectly on perfectly sized pipework with perfect working pressures. It’s a complete nonsense. About time GS actually allowed us to behave like adults and use our years of engineering judgment.
You are correct there is no regulation on the 5 and 10 % it was just brought in for trainees with no engineers judgement. The appliance is not AR if it’s out only if it is affecting the safe operation of the appliances or another appliance.
@@tomkatgastraining I completely agree with you. I’m not even convinced that despite what TB says about putting a boiler in to max rate using the service function is necessarily correct either. As I think if you run every tap in the house you’ve created the maximum real world demand that appliance can ever expect so you have in fact gas rated at max rate. But it’s such a grey area people like me just tow the line cos to be honest there’s no point in arguing. Same as range rated glow worms. They’ll be set to say 18kw for a particular property. But gas rate at 30kw when in max service mode. But can’t actually achieve that in normal operation. Gas safe need to once and for all clarify all this stuff. Cos big businesses have entire departments enforcing this stuff and I’m convinced half of it is actually BS.
@@Lutonman2010 The rules are for what the boiler can do not the system you put it on. Could argue why fit such a big boiler. Also just because a boiler is rated down maybe in the future it gets rated back up. Best would be for engineers to just fit correctly sized boilers
Maybe it should be an instant non compliance if the boiler is oversized and does have the building notification present when a gas engineer comes to carry out work on it. You spend the day filling out warnings to tick boxes🤦🏻♂️ You don’t get to gas rate much on commercial as it’s got all sorts running off the same meter🤨
![ละลาย (LALALYE) - DAOU PITTAYA ต้าห์อู๋ พิทยา [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wo6r9TgausI/mqdefault.jpg)
Great video as ever. Many many years ago when I was training I used to try this 1 min method and the 1/2 a revolution method also. The results were the same as you found. It’s the same results.
Hi Derek, excellent video as always, Our Gas Rate APP has a massive download because we always had 1 or 2 minuet choice. The EU has always been ONE minuet only the UK was different as usual. Hope to see you Wednesday Thursday afternoon, George Mr Combi👍🤩
See you at the theatre of dreams then George 👍🏻
I think your app calculates for any time period. I just tried 30seconds and it worked out fine as well. Now I am going to try 15 seconds. Haha
Will do@@tomkatgastraining
This is true, but the regs say one minuet, thanks for the download, take care, George👍@@efrygasservices6169
We’ve all had those situations where struggle to get rid of heat when gas rating . System already been on etc so lesser test duration would be handy
Especially as it’s gotta be on for 5 minutes before we analyse
Spot on,and gas rating on a 20 year old gas meter that's never been calibrated since it was installed,yet we have to use this to determine if an appliance is working correctly ! Doesn't sit quite right!
Gas rate testing never sat right with me !!@@ginola602
So glad you read these technical bulletins ..really keeps the rest of us current, sweep test, flue integrity tests, tick box lists. etc. are we informed of these on the ACS... nope ..se ducts u ducts never seen one in my life but i get tested on every 5 yr resit. We should be trained and tested on the changes in the previous 5 years ....rant over....
Good news mate se and u ducts are gone now it’s CFS now 👍🏻
Well said ! and the Vertex flue ! whatever that is
The one minute test will definitely help when serving and the boiler has been on before arrival. Good video
Wow Derek❤😂. That was quite some testing you did there. Thank you for your in depth video it was very beneficial and cleared a lot of questions.
Wicked video Del Boy - you like me question EVERYTHING not to prove it’s wrong but to prove it full stop..
Always golden Derek. ❤
Smart meters could be a pain...waiting for the digit to change rather than watching the dial
Thanks Derek, saved me reading the tech bulletin
Been doing one mi since 95 tried this at the time always worked out same on metric just goes to show 😊
Adrian brown training has taught this for years. .well done Adrian...you won your argument
If he has been teaching it for years then he hasn’t been following industry standards 🤔
I am a retired UKAS Electrical, Temperature & Pressure Calibration engineer, I would have performed a 1 minute test from cold, then a 2 minutes test from cold then see IF there's any difference, just curious, if by not letting the system run for a while might indicate a difference due to heating up say from 20°C taking the New Standard as a test 1 minute without performing a 2 minutes warm up 🤔 there might be a difference then ?
In the past serviced & Repaired Kane Instruments Boiler Analysers,
I have spoken to the guy who came up with the timings for gas rating. He said the only reason they made it 2 minutes long was because of the E6 meters. He said because it was a digital reading they couldn’t get it accurate unless they ran it for 2 minutes. He said temperature only made a minuscule difference.
Currently on my domestic gas course and can’t wait to bring this up to our tutor 🎉
dont be the smart arse ask him about the 323 quick gas rate figure though :P not totally accurate but saves some calculations.
I’ve done this for years, being commercial, a building like a swimming pool will run 24/7, 365 days of the year. I could switch the boiler off and sit there for hours and still not get a 2 minute run time. So, rather than not rate at all, I do make a note of the reading at 1 minute.
Been doing it for years.. so often in the summer you struggle to get rid of heat quick enough .. we all have to live in the real world, we are engineers and as such make decisions based on the situation at the time
Mr Combi app you can reduce to 1 minute, makes sense to me especially if customers are turning down all trvs, nothing worse boiler cutting off half way throgh gas rate
Great video I used to experiment with this years ago but as said you have to maintain max rate would be useful at times
If they have been trialing with British Gas it will be more about getting there engineers out the door even quicker on a so called service.
Annual Inspection 😗
Pressing buttons is all about timing and can add to errors, not reading from a dial
I have wondered for years now why we gas rate modern HE boilers at all, as you can't adjust the gas rate? All you can do is adjust the ratios, so if your ratios are right then your gas rate is right. Thoughts on this?
For me it’s the other away around. Correct gas rate correct ratio. Gas rating tells you if the appliance is over gassed or under gassed which is very important to help stop an unsafe situation. Also you shouldn’t change the ratio on a boiler unless you are converting from Nat gas to lpg or the other way around this is now in the unsafe situations igem/g/11. Also you adjust the gas rate all the time with modern boilers even turning the flow temperature down or up adjusts the heat input also range rating the boiler will do the same.
Excellent info again Derek, how are the teeth bedding in by the way?
Still feeling like I have red rums teeth in my mouth 😂👍🏻
@@tomkatgastraining At least you don't look like the Vicar Dick Emery used to do 😆😆
Gas safe are a law unto themselves. They change their minds as often as their underpants.
They have got to justify the costs of the 5 yearly by moving the goal posts.
I had a gas safe inspection a few weeks ago. I asked the accessor about saying people gas rate for one minute. Then double. He said no way there a a few reasons why it must be two minutes.
We gas rate loads of systems that’s got 8/10mm minibore choked up within an inch of its life, you can barely get 30 seconds out of some them before they cut out. It’s a bloody nightmare.
After doing all this for years I'm starting to think most of it is money making bs
Hi Derek, im wanting a combi boiler moved from the loft, down to the kitchen, on ground floor. Would that cause any boiler problems? Would you see any issues with that?
Depending on the age of the boiler I would always advise to change the boiler for a new one because old boilers don’t travel well.
@@tomkatgastraining its 5-6 years old. Not old. But ty. 👍
I read the TB last week and it seemed to me, that this is about cutting down on CO2 output and gas usage by 50% when gas engineers are gas rating... Oh well.. what ever.. one minute it is then.. We'll soon be at zero CO2 guys... !! 😂
Can’t believe British Gas blagged them on that
What's one minute less gas usage per annual service compared to a year's usage? About 0.001 percent?
Time in Sec for 0.01m3
Calculations
386÷Sec =kw
Gas rate combis in around 15secs
Test above would yield
386÷120= 3.21kw
Close enough for me
Brilliant Derek , Will give that a go tomorrow 😅
what's your estimate of Percentage U6 or older meters that are still in use! a few years ago one place I was working had a problem with the gas and the Board found a Victorian meter in the Seller it was lacking a bit to much!
Hard to say with gas suppliers wanting smart meters now but my last 3 houses had them
Derrick, please hear my confession!
Ok, hands up; I've only been timing for 1 minute for years after basically doing exactly the same tests as you Derick.
On metric meter only though.
I don't feel so bad now that I've confessed 😊
Chris Walker CGas Ltd
🤫
🚓🚓🚓
Like many installers I've taken readings at 1minuite and at 2 minutes and compared the results.
Same with Imperial meters,.5 and 1cu.ft
It's just to ensure I haven't made a silly mistake.
With "smart " meters, I look to do more than one 2min. test to confirm the figures!
How would warming up a burner change the flow rate of gas to the burner? Not a dig, just a question. Got my ACS in November.
Heat creates expansion
We were always taught 38.6 was the CV of natural gas. Don’t suppose it makes much difference like.
Can you do a video how to service a cooker .
Is service a cooker and hob the same
What if the gas ring injector is partially blocked ?
@@johncummins3860 what about it not sure what you are getting at
Omg the amount of 1minutes i have wasted due to gas safe
😂😂😂
Is that an Imperial minute or a metric minute?
If it's working out the same the one benefit is fuel wastage is reduced by half now.
That’s why they say it could be reduced
Gas rating has become a bit of a joke in recent years. Our compliance officers will give you a black mark if your gr isn’t within 10% under and 5% over. Even though the only TB that I can find says this is just an industry acceptable standard. I can’t find anywhere in the actual regs that it mentions these figures. We are told that outside of this we must AR the boiler. But the recent trend has been for builders to put 35kw combis in tiny houses and flats. You run every tap full rate and can’t get 35kw. My argument is well where is the risk? You say it’s AR so tell me what’s dangerous? No answer. Also you can take the same boiler on LPG and there isn’t even a meter to gas rate yet it’s deemed safe, but you’d fail an inspection with exactly the same boiler on a meter if you didn’t gas rate it. It’s a complete shambles and needs completely re writing to say that an engineer should be able to use their judgement. I’ve had to AR 30kw combis running at 26.90 that are working perfectly on perfectly sized pipework with perfect working pressures. It’s a complete nonsense. About time GS actually allowed us to behave like adults and use our years of engineering judgment.
You are correct there is no regulation on the 5 and 10 % it was just brought in for trainees with no engineers judgement. The appliance is not AR if it’s out only if it is affecting the safe operation of the appliances or another appliance.
@@tomkatgastraining I completely agree with you. I’m not even convinced that despite what TB says about putting a boiler in to max rate using the service function is necessarily correct either. As I think if you run every tap in the house you’ve created the maximum real world demand that appliance can ever expect so you have in fact gas rated at max rate. But it’s such a grey area people like me just tow the line cos to be honest there’s no point in arguing. Same as range rated glow worms. They’ll be set to say 18kw for a particular property. But gas rate at 30kw when in max service mode. But can’t actually achieve that in normal operation. Gas safe need to once and for all clarify all this stuff. Cos big businesses have entire departments enforcing this stuff and I’m convinced half of it is actually BS.
8 annual inspections a day = 8 minutes a day x5 days = 40 minutes a week x thousands of service engineers = more efficiency /profit 🧐
@@Lutonman2010
The rules are for what the boiler can do not the system you put it on.
Could argue why fit such a big boiler.
Also just because a boiler is rated down maybe in the future it gets rated back up. Best would be for engineers to just fit correctly sized boilers
Maybe it should be an instant non compliance if the boiler is oversized and does have the building notification present when a gas engineer comes to carry out work on it. You spend the day filling out warnings to tick boxes🤦🏻♂️
You don’t get to gas rate much on commercial as it’s got all sorts running off the same meter🤨
My best guess is they want to reduce the co2 in half during the rating
They say it’s all about saving the customer water and gas during this energy crisis we are having
😂
Cheers fella .....
Good video
Trials with British Gas 😂
Soon we won’t be gas rating, checking flue integrity or servicing then.
😂😂😂👍🏻
🤘😎🤘
I tried over 15 and 30 seconds, got same results over 2 mins.
Me too but you are definitely pushing it if you go lower than 1 minute
I already knew this Derek. Now how about reducing your video lengths to 50% as well. Stop waffling man.
@@jjohnson-stoker I will give everyone just 50% of the information then 🤔
The only time I gas rate shit is when I’m re sitting my ACS.