My impression of the rejection of "total depravity" is that it almost always either causes, or it results in Pelagianism or semi-Pelagianism. So, if I'm right, some people are rejecting the "T" of TULIP because they are (to some degree) already Pelagian in their beliefs, or they strongly lean in the direction of Pelagianism because they have not taken the fall of mankind seriously.
Exactly. And if people get total depravity wrong, they get the whole Bible wrong, and especially the very gospel of our salvation it reveals to us. Many doctrines in the Bible can only rightly be understood by first understanding T.D.
In a God-centered theology like Calvinism, it is perfectly logical as God's intent in allowing humanity to fall into sin is ultimately to glorify Himself. Without this fall, we as His creations would never fully witness God’s magnificence. Moreover, it would render the concept of the Trinity meaningless, as the persons of the Trinity would lack purpose.
Yes, Romans 6 describes being set free but you need to read on through Romans 7 to see that sin still resides within our members, warring against the law of our mind which has been renewed, bringing us into captivity to sin and causing us to do that which we hate
@@-Thelordismyshepherd- unfortunately even believers who are still alive on this earth have to deal with their sinful nature. At regeneration, the believer receives a new nature, a nature that frees the person’s sin bound nature to delight and obey God’s law. “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” Romans 7:14-25 ESV
@-Thelordismyshepherd- no, believer is not under the law, he is under grace, and you are wrong about the context of romans chapter 7. It explains very clearly there that now when we sin it is no longer us who sins but sin that dwells within us. If you do not hold on to Romans 7 you will be weakened in spiritual combat. With the flesh we serve the law of sin and nothing but, but with the mind we serve the Lord, and the life we live is no longer us living but Christ through us
@-Thelordismyshepherd- please stop trying to corner me by asking questions that you already know the answer to. I take enough quizzes in Bible College. If you have a genuine question I will be glad to answer it
Yep, God decreed the fall. There are clear distinctions, as in God isn’t forcing anyone against their will to sin, but at the end of the day, yes, God decreed it, all of it. Get over it Leighton. If you don’t like it, stop emoting and prove your point from scripture. We will wait
I agree! Dr. Flowers apparently can't accept the sovereign right of God to create the kinds of creatures who COULD and WOULD fall away from God...and actually need the Savior! Can't have a God like that!
"You're flattening it out" is not a magic phrase to ward off entailments of your theology you would rather not face up to. James White sounds weak and ridiculous when he says it, too.
This isn't the only place where you take off the mask and show how much of a lying, mocking bully you are, is it? There's one more place. Please, stay here longer if it will spare a few people some time to live in peace
This is a good watch. Brother can you do a review on Dr.White's debate to an open theist barber. Many say Dr.White lost but when I watched the cross examine Barber refuse to.answer Dr.White's question.
Yes God is sovereign over Adam eating the fruit..God understood satans temptation would be to become like God, the desire to be like God was not a sin for Adam. The only command Adam broke was the actual eating of the fruit.. not thinking of eating the fruit not touching the fruit, not even wanting the fruit! All that was required was not to eat of the fruit!
To combat power outages use an ups for your router your modem and your PC. It might be good to have a separate one for the PC side and the other for the network side.
@JohnSmith-ir9wx perhaps there are people out there who do understand Calvinism, but I personally haven’t met one in person or online yet. In fact, you can just look at the debate Flowers had with James White on John. Flowers said, “Calvinists presume this audience is unbelieving by default. That’s White’s words, by default. Whereas provisionists teach this audience is unbelieving by their fault…” If Flowers was truly a Calvinist at one point, then he should have known that it’s also their fault. Yes, Calvinism does teach that the audience is unbelieving by their fault. Spurgeon said, “…He that perishes chooses to perish; but he that is saved is saved because God has chosen to save him.” And again, “He saves man by grace, and if men perish they perish justly by their own fault.” And last one, “if a man be saved, all the honor is to be given to Christ; but if a man be lost, all the blame is to be laid upon himself.” Flower’s sleight of hand got his own audience into believing that James White, and Calvinism, doesn’t teach that people perish by their own fault when in fact it does. Now, even your own remark demonstrates your lack of understanding when you said, “we do understand this PERVERSE philosophy of a wicked man.” In your mind, you still believe that John Calvin invented Calvinism. People with understanding, or even come close to understanding the nuances of this soteriological debate or discussion would not speak that way. You do because you don’t understand it. To quote John Piper, “So a major evangelical philosopher says the exegesis is on the side of the Calvinists, philosophy is on the side of the Arminians, and you have to bring your philosophy to the text, otherwise, the conclusions you draw are too severe.” (Taken from: The Difference Between Calvinists and Arminians. Search for it on DesiringGod)
Appreciate you having me on again bro. Sorry for dipping out early.
Nah, there was no schedule bro it's all good
My impression of the rejection of "total depravity" is that it almost always either causes, or it results in Pelagianism or semi-Pelagianism. So, if I'm right, some people are rejecting the "T" of TULIP because they are (to some degree) already Pelagian in their beliefs, or they strongly lean in the direction of Pelagianism because they have not taken the fall of mankind seriously.
Exactly. And if people get total depravity wrong, they get the whole Bible wrong, and especially the very gospel of our salvation it reveals to us. Many doctrines in the Bible can only rightly be understood by first understanding T.D.
Proverbs 16:9 ESV
"The heart of man plans his way,
but the LORD establishes his steps."
I loved this stream RC !!
“Why did God decide we would be born with a sin nature?” Short answer, because he wanted to and he is God. Get over it
In a God-centered theology like Calvinism, it is perfectly logical as God's intent in allowing humanity to fall into sin is ultimately to glorify Himself. Without this fall, we as His creations would never fully witness God’s magnificence. Moreover, it would render the concept of the Trinity meaningless, as the persons of the Trinity would lack purpose.
Yes, Romans 6 describes being set free but you need to read on through Romans 7 to see that sin still resides within our members, warring against the law of our mind which has been renewed, bringing us into captivity to sin and causing us to do that which we hate
@@-Thelordismyshepherd- unfortunately even believers who are still alive on this earth have to deal with their sinful nature. At regeneration, the believer receives a new nature, a nature that frees the person’s sin bound nature to delight and obey God’s law.
“For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”
Romans 7:14-25 ESV
@-Thelordismyshepherd- no, believer is not under the law, he is under grace, and you are wrong about the context of romans chapter 7. It explains very clearly there that now when we sin it is no longer us who sins but sin that dwells within us. If you do not hold on to Romans 7 you will be weakened in spiritual combat. With the flesh we serve the law of sin and nothing but, but with the mind we serve the Lord, and the life we live is no longer us living but Christ through us
@-Thelordismyshepherd- please stop trying to corner me by asking questions that you already know the answer to. I take enough quizzes in Bible College. If you have a genuine question I will be glad to answer it
Yep, God decreed the fall. There are clear distinctions, as in God isn’t forcing anyone against their will to sin, but at the end of the day, yes, God decreed it, all of it. Get over it Leighton. If you don’t like it, stop emoting and prove your point from scripture. We will wait
I agree! Dr. Flowers apparently can't accept the sovereign right of God to create the kinds of creatures who COULD and WOULD fall away from God...and actually need the Savior! Can't have a God like that!
This is a great conversation to listen to. Praise the Lord. Leighton Flowers and his friends argue like atheists do.
Nice to hear from Twitchy again, it's a good dynamic Twichy you nailed it with your thank God for the fall comment, thanks.much appreciated
God bless you dude. Always good to have guests like twitchy on too 😊
If total depravity is false, I wonder how provisionists would explain the great flood that killed all of humanity...except for Noah and his family.
They just say that people had become that way at that time
God does not cause evil, He allows it.
"You're flattening it out" is not a magic phrase to ward off entailments of your theology you would rather not face up to. James White sounds weak and ridiculous when he says it, too.
This isn't the only place where you take off the mask and show how much of a lying, mocking bully you are, is it? There's one more place. Please, stay here longer if it will spare a few people some time to live in peace
So, do u want to talk about it? :) bc I can demonstrate that 99 percent of the time synergists misrepresent our position.
This is a good watch. Brother can you do a review on Dr.White's debate to an open theist barber. Many say Dr.White lost but when I watched the cross examine Barber refuse to.answer Dr.White's question.
We watched and talked about a little bit of that debate in the past, but did not do a full review. Might not be a bad idea
Yes God is sovereign over Adam eating the fruit..God understood satans temptation would be to become like God, the desire to be like God was not a sin for Adam. The only command Adam broke was the actual eating of the fruit.. not thinking of eating the fruit not touching the fruit, not even wanting the fruit! All that was required was not to eat of the fruit!
Libertarian free wills don’t need an escape provided!!😏
To combat power outages use an ups for your router your modem and your PC. It might be good to have a separate one for the PC side and the other for the network side.
12 minutes In… what argument is flowers using😂😂😂
You need to take oregano oil!
Oh no you don't understand Calvinism lol the fact is we do understand this perverse philosophy of a wicked man.
I'll give you until 8 am EST to support that with scripture. If not, bye bye
@JohnSmith-ir9wx perhaps there are people out there who do understand Calvinism, but I personally haven’t met one in person or online yet. In fact, you can just look at the debate Flowers had with James White on John. Flowers said, “Calvinists presume this audience is unbelieving by default. That’s White’s words, by default. Whereas provisionists teach this audience is unbelieving by their fault…”
If Flowers was truly a Calvinist at one point, then he should have known that it’s also their fault. Yes, Calvinism does teach that the audience is unbelieving by their fault. Spurgeon said, “…He that perishes chooses to perish; but he that is saved is saved because God has chosen to save him.” And again, “He saves man by grace, and if men perish they perish justly by their own fault.” And last one, “if a man be saved, all the honor is to be given to Christ; but if a man be lost, all the blame is to be laid upon himself.”
Flower’s sleight of hand got his own audience into believing that James White, and Calvinism, doesn’t teach that people perish by their own fault when in fact it does.
Now, even your own remark demonstrates your lack of understanding when you said, “we do understand this PERVERSE philosophy of a wicked man.” In your mind, you still believe that John Calvin invented Calvinism. People with understanding, or even come close to understanding the nuances of this soteriological debate or discussion would not speak that way. You do because you don’t understand it. To quote John Piper, “So a major evangelical philosopher says the exegesis is on the side of the Calvinists, philosophy is on the side of the Arminians, and you have to bring your philosophy to the text, otherwise, the conclusions you draw are too severe.” (Taken from: The Difference Between Calvinists and Arminians. Search for it on DesiringGod)