Intel said this may not work - but it does. Intel NUC 9: The PC within a PC.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
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Now plug an intel compute stick into the hdmi port for triple rigs.
😂😂😂😂
Tape a rasPi as an adblocker too
imagine putting this on a dual socket motherboard or a dual system case like the metallic gear Neo Qube. Minimum of 3 systems in a case lmao
Dont forger intel optane
computerception
i was wondering when someone was going to try this. its a bit expensive to mess it up but im glad you did it.
well that's the thing isn't it? it didn't require any irreversible mods
Fucking sweet I was tempted to try this.
@@HazewinDog Yeh, it looks surprisingly easy. The only issue I could see someone having is taping off the wrong pins but other than that pretty promising.
10:28 the cat putting his paw into the fan xD
der8auer: so i want to put this NUC into another PC in case someone needs 2 seperate computers, like some streamers
some engineer at intel: ...we didn't really design it for that... *starts writing on some piece of paper*
@Jordan B. Peterson's Pet Communist Lobster i got a extra PCIe x16 slot... i might just doo this lol
@@TROYNELSON12 threaripper?
Jordan B. Peterson's Pet Communist Lobster I'ma guess that it will be popular in 2030. Before then it will not be affordable enough for anybody but enthusiasts and businesses.
You've just created a new market for the NUC.
yeah I dismissed it when it was announced but now I want it to have linux and windows running from one computer case at same time (linux for everyday use and windows for gaming)
but they are too expensive so maybe later in the future but then they may prevent us from doing this
if stability and price to performance is feasible then I am a potential customer
There ya go, there is a complete streaming PC for your gaming setup
Just build thread ripper 3000 series, it will faster and more practical
just market it as RGB controller and see it fly off the shelves
Does your computer have an Intel CPU or AMD.
me: Yes
XD
me: no
*cries in poverty*
I don't understand why this wasn't their goal from the start. I want a PC in my PC!
I dont know why they said it wouldnt work or why they wouldnt allow the pcie connector to act as a high speed nic if someone wanted to use it in this way.
Hyper-V only costs $100 (Windows 10 Pro) and then you just buy a bigger CPU / more RAM. Cheaper and better solution.
@@danksley I agree. Instead of buying a NUC card which is difficult to configure and install, why not buy a 32 core AMD 3970x with 64 GB or 128 GB RAM?
Considering how overly and needlessly complex the x86 architecture is (and the consequent dies which follow), you already have a "PC" in your PC... only that its the CPU. You really think x86 instructions actually control the CPU? Think again. The instructions are more like suggestions than instructions. The pipeline is a gigantic cascade; to put things into simple terms, assembly on x86 is a declarative programming language because the behavior is the same, but the amount of control over the real hardware itself is miniscule. Now if I could directly call microcode and control the cache lines directly and determine when CPU instructions should be queued for the front-end, then it could be said that maybe assembly on x86 is imperative.
I wish the BIOS on most motherboards were as nice as that Intel BIOS.
Yeah... clean and organized... I don't get why it's so hard.
It doesn't even say gaming in the bios. Hard pass.
And it's not XTR3ME, would not buy.
Have you seen gigabytes bios?
I could easily understand everything going on and there weren't any meaningless bling cluttering it. It was a disgusting sight.
So it's the opposite of a virtual machine
Think same xD
PC-ception
Add Synergy (or TeamViewer) and you get a VM+
An actual machine.
So a PM? Physical Machine?
so is this now Hardware devirtualitsation?
Hardware actualization.
@@thedungeondelver Hardware realization
@@rotvaldi no
@@rotvaldi 草
Virtual hardwarization?
Intel: what is this useful for?
Everyone: what is this useful for?
Roman: this is the best use for this product
Intel in 1 month: cant keep up with the orders
If you're a gamer with no v storage space for 2nd rig then you can do this to record your gameplay
I'd love to connect this to a Ryzen 3950x with the pci-e 4.0
I'd like to see it communicate with the host system like the Intel Phi does. Just keep adding compute power to your workstation, instead of replacing the existing with a more powerful CPU.
this is the worst possible use case for this NUC, you are using 2 pcie ports as a 3.3v input. blocking both ports in both motherboards just to get 3.3v to the correct pin on the NUC, pointless AF
@@Maisonier you can't communicate over pcie, they are both hosts.
10:27 "Yeah, customer support? I can't figure out why my system is overheating. ... Also, it smells like catnip."
Pronounced (so dim) like that light is so dim.
Small Outline DIM
To be completely anal about it, it's SODIMM - two Ms
Small-Outline Dual Inline Memory Module
@@thekaper I know but I didn't want to over complicate it.
@der8auer it would be nice, if you want to really make use of this idea, to reconfigure a PCIe riser to allow end user to both plug in the NUC for power requirements and utilize the remaining connections for the NUC's PCIe lanes/GPU availability. 😉
I mean .. if they released a board for this that did have the connections right, maybe they could talk over the pci-e lanes(even if it's first connected to usb or something) it would be an idea for streaming...
that make more intel sales again
This sounds like something that might screw over some of their server products, i doubt intel would want that at all
It shouldn't be that hard for someone to create a PCIe passthrough connector that has the correct pins already blocked and passed.
Someone who goes by the name of The Builder would seem perfect for this.
I would still build another computer rather than wasting my money on this. The nuc he is using is a 1600€ product which is like the price of two low 9900k + 3900x builds. Bear in mind it doesn't come with the memory. Also I would not have any faith in this psu.
This type of thing was introduced in the past by Intel named xeon phi.
Which works as a co-processor
SODIMM stands for Small Outline Dual Inline Memory Module.
I have only ever heard it pronounced "So-Dim"
This is exactly what I've been wondering
Chad der8auer vs virgin intel
hah
So it barely required modifications to work, now I'm even more confused why Intel doesn't just sell it for this purpose
Seems like it would eat into their "blade" market for compact form factor compute. Imagine taking 8 of these and plugging them into a mainboard with an Epyc rome 128 core that acts as both data processing and backplane link.
They wouldn't wanna upset their Enterprise costumers?
This is exactly what I thought it was for originally
@@retovath I bought a damaged board from a secondhand junk store with a perfect Epyc 7401P for €50 :)) and have been rattling my brain what to use it for. Your idea of using backplane is interesting (but sadly say beyond my capability) using PICMG.
He covered all the pins ,so basically using that pci slot as a stand for the NUC and a 3v pin to act as power signal. I am sure intel had something else in their mind when he asked them to plug the nuc in his PC .
The memory speed could be a limit of the chipset that is used. Intel's 400 series chipsets have some limits on the ram speed depening on the chipset.
Probably an H one... I'm not sure how he's missed that
I suspect he doesn't use H-chipset variant boards very often, he probably forgot that Intel arbitrarily limits things like memory speed just because they want you to buy the 'Z' SKU :-/
Multiple SOC linking analogy
Nvidia : SLI, NvLink
AMD : Crossfire
Intel : -Nope-
*Der8auer : hahahh... PCI the PC*
Edit : that's what I'm here for...... Goofy things that nobody tries
This channel is underrated, it deserves high views and subs.
Keep up the interesting stuff 👌
This was the first thing I thought of doing when I saw the NUC too. Imagine if you could get an Intel co-processor add-in card for singlethreaded workloads on your high core count systems!
Xeon Phi did the same but unfortunately those 72 core monsters required custom coding to utilize those.
Only the Scientific department and specialized depts could use those efficiently.
same here. it's crazy it wasn't marketed it this way. a ton of professionals could make heavy use of a system like this.
This is just hardware acceleration with extra steps, or is it ?
gpus were conceived with the same idea in mind, offload tasks to a more optimized hardware, multicore Cortex ARM chips on phones already use this feature with typical weak and power efficient cores couples with High speed power hungry cores.... This actually might change the pc architecture
There's some special motherboards with PCIe switches on them. You could flash the switch with an upstream port on the NUC and a downstream port on one of the PCIe slots.
The cpu could be left with the rest of the slots as downstream.
Then you have PCIe expansion on both the host CPU and NUC.
I'm also curious if you could run this as a co-processor to the main rig with the PCIe connection restored. Though that's probably what Intel meant when they said it isn't meant for that.
"stealing PCIe lanes" wait isn't the whole point to connect the NUC to the host system as a PCIe device so it can directly access the framebuffer over PCIe rather than needing to go through an external capture card?
That's what I expected as well. What's the advantage to do this if there is no communication between the two system.
That would require some heavy programming to create a driver capable of doing this. It was my first question when I clicked on the video: "How would he make it communicate?" The answer was: "He didn't." Saying this isn't what it was designed for is only half true, since it's not technically doing anything outside of design spec. It is running as if it was plugged into that powered riser card with nothing in the second slot. (Admittedly by fooling the system into thinking there's an x16 card in the slot, but that's not saying much if you're only drawing power.)
It's a space saving hack above all. You basically just put a Velka 3 inside your mid tower.
@@warmachine5835 yeah of course. It's his mention of "daughter mode" or something like that that made me expect more. At minimum some memory mapping.
This beg the question, would appropriate driver would be able to use the pci lanes for communication?
You would need to write a driver/program that DMA The information you want to send to the Intel nuc memory and send it interrupt to the Intel nuc. then write a driver/program to read the DMA region of memory when interrupted and do something with it. do the reverse if you wish to send data the other direction. PCIe switching and PCIe direct connections in some enterprise applications. So yes you can do this.
Edit
If I remember correctly the PS4 has a BSD primary operating system directly connected to an arm SoC with a PCI Express connection which also runs a BSD operating system which acts as a northbridge. Also if I remember correctly the drivers they wrote are really awful and break spec.
10:22 that cat, omg, is so adorable
Intel: That shouldn't work.
der8auer: Hold my LN²!
I feel like this use case was the most obvious one when I first saw this NUC, and it seems strange to me that Intel would not support this configuration, or even provide drivers to effectively network the two systems together via PCIe.
I think it would be better to just add another CPU socket than this. I mean it look like another Accelerator, like a GPU if you use solely a driver to communicate with it, that only has x86 Intel instruction set in it, in other word it add another CPU in the Device Manager...
Technically, if you had an Xeon CPU with NTB support you could have comms between the Xeon and the NUC. Not that any application would be designed to make use of that setup
SODIMM Small Outline Dual Inline Memory Module
I'm sure he knows that but like he said he didn't know how translate it^^
It's pronounced "sod 'em"
*smol
@@Philip8888888 I thought it was 'So-Dim'
Suggestion: When in a case, grab the 2-pin dupont plug off the reset switch header on the main motherboard, and stick it on the power switch header for the NUC. Then you have a dedicated power button for the NUC without any hard mods, as they're both just momentary switches.
Ah, a big button for big system, smol button for smol system. Very good.
Gugure Purasu what if the reset button is a fonzie brand model?
Get one of those PCIe backplanes, create a "poor man's blade server", profit?
but its more expensive than normal setup
@@rasz Trust me, anything is cheaper than actual blade servers.
It lacks almost all of the functionality of a blade server, as there is no sharing of any system resources, other than the power supply.
@@Starfireaw11 @Aroop Roelofs but if you slap kuberneties over it it would achive most of the aspects of a blade server- albeit a "poor mans blade server".
With two SODIMMs? Server blades take half a terabyte of RAM or more.
I'd use the Intel NUC 9 as a machine to separate work and play. Main rig would be used primarily for games, the NUC 9 would be running Microsoft Office, Microsoft Teams and other programs I need for school.
_“How to run an Intel NUC off of the voltage provided by a normal PC motherboard, with no data connection or interoperability whatsoever between the normal PC and the NUC. Instead of, of course, just rigging up a power supply to the NUC directly.”_
amm... what about LAN? is that not data? slap a cable cat on the nuc, push it in the router. Main pc allready in router... what the problem
madbruv - Or… you could just put the NUC and it’s base circuitboard in the same case as the PC electrical-tape to the side panel (totally disconnected) and run a power connector from the PC’s power supply to it, and if you wish an ethernet cable from the NUC to the PC’s ethernet port. Same result. Or better yet: Just double-sided tape the full NUC to the top of the PC case. Job’s done.
So news flash: Any computer with an ethernet port can be connected to another computer with an ethernet port. Nothing special or inventive or new about that. If one has the capability to plug a PC in the motherboard of another PC, you’d think you’d want something more capable where you can stream KVM data or otherwise into a “virtualization” window (like a VM’s UI, but technically not a VM) on the main PC, like we had back in the 90s with Wintel add-on cards for Macs or similar. Not the basic ethernet telecommunications interconnect that almost every computer has.
10:20 cat will help... Cat knows what's wrong.
This is actually perfect idea.
This is less exciting that I thought before. Kinda expecting that you somehow manage to make the NUC module communicate with the Z490 PC via the PCIe. Still cool I guess.
Now that really reminds me of those PC compatibility cards for Mac from back in the day.
Congratulations! Now you've created a rigverse by putting a rig into a rig.
Now the step ahead will be to plug a rig into a rig into another rig.
10:26 the cat messing with it made me laugh so hard
Next question is: can I use 2 or even 3 of these on a TRX40 motherboard? :D
Yes you can because it only needs power.
You could probably just use AM4 or any Intel desktop board and connect it to the chipset provided PCI-E slots since it only draws power from the slots.
Yes, guys, that was more of a rhetorical question -- I fully understand that all I really need is any decent mobo with 4 PCI-e x16 slots))) Just wanted to underline how much further this rabbit hole could lead us into. Someone already suggested sticking Intel ComputeSticks into the NUC to get to the third level of this "RIG-ception"
ROG Xpander?
My first thought for a use for a system setup like this is removing needing an external streaming rig. Pop the NUC in, and assign that duty to it while you game on the host rig.
"They said it could not be done" - a German guy
Did device manager show an unidentified device? Obviously no communication was possible, but I wonder if system was in any way aware that it was inserted.
Also how is it possible that there isn't a problem when both the PC and the NUC were outputting voltages on the same pins and none of them were expecting positive voltage (power delivery) on those?
no, communication is definitely possible, you just need a driver, it's a bus
That could be fantastic way for simple streaming or recording in h.264 codec.
Are you sere the NUC outputs 3.3V? Because if it did, why would there be a separate regulator on the adapter board?
It wasn't so much that they were both outputting power, (only the normal motherboard was) but moreso that both were acting as pcie hosts
@@lpcamargo I'm pretty sure it's passive, the traces were joined up to the other slot on the mainboard, video cards piggy-back the same power lines so they don't have to design any extra circuitry for it like a standard PC board would.
Well you certainly showed them!
@10:30 ROFL kitty NO
haha how did I miss that? that's hilarious :D
If I'm okay with my GPU running on PCIe x8, do I still have to tape anything, the ID pins?
I am not sure, but he said it worked .... so it should work.
You can skip the taping step if the PCI-e speed is not affecting your use scenario.
As long as the slot is not sharing the same lanes with some other device such as a M.2 slot or SATA connectors.
If the slot is sharing the lanes with a device then the 2 host systems will "fight" over the device and possibilities are:
A: Any one of the host gets the device, And its also possible that they take turns on which one will get the device on this POST.
B: Both initialize the device and cause it to malfunction as it gets commands from both hosts simultaneously.
C: One or Both systems crash as there is a conflict of commands.
Now it would be amazing to see all of this working in a case. Maybe watercooling both pcs together? Maybe even do that for an existing Streamer to replace his setup.
Nice system-in-a-system concept but I do wonder in a closed case how much the NUC affects ambient temperature of the primary system. Can both co-exist same case with stock cooling?
Good question. It should be fine and rather negligible, with a low TDP it should raise the ambient temp a lot less than a beefy GPU for example. I assume anyone trying this would have an ATX Case with appropriate intake, exhaust and overhaul decent airflow.
it outputs as much heat as a midrange gpu... so temps should be in check if you have good enough airflow
NO
my pc came with no case fans, so not in my cases case lmfao
I'm surprised there isn't a custom loop option. Obv you can probably ghetto one on but something custom made for it like a full-cover EK block would be dope.
They say it couldn't be done but this mad man did it. He built a pc on a pc. Madlad
Now what would be interesting is if they made one of these boards with a PCIe switch for something called "Non Transparent Bridging". Essentially, there are a few PCIe switches on the market that allow you to connect two "upstream" devices and map shared memory between the two of them. The Linux kernel has some examples for creating virtual network devices over NTB links. Intel already made something like this in the past with their VCA. Essentially, 3 quad core Xeons on a PCIe card that could be slotted into an existing server which ran Linux.
This !!! This is the kind of Content Ive been waiting for !!! I would love to see an old NUC7 or NUC8 and NUC10 ... along with this NUC9 ... daisychained via PCIe lanes for just power from a mainboard. ... See how much the power draw would be ... and setup a HPC unit ... perhaps ... just 4 NUC9 boards ... all on one Mainboard ... triggering to boot up ... run something I dunno SETI@home or Folding@Home ... something related to using the X-small form-factor systems to do real serious workloads ... how tenable is it for a home setup ... :-D
And this is the most genius use for this. Good job.
Very interesting video, one problem that I notice for the use case you pointed out in the video is that streamers with 2 PC setups tend to use capture cards along with them and many of those cards connect via PCIe. There are capture cards that use USB, and you could use a thunderbolt enclosure but that kind of defeats the idea of having everything contained within one PC if you need to have some other box sitting outside. One solution would be to use NDI which utilizes your network to send the video signal but in my experience it’s relatively unreliable. It would be very interesting to see if intel could implement a system where a motherboard could use the first PCIe slot as a regular GPU but have the 2nd slot connect to the NUC and let it control any and all subsequent PCIe slots for other add in cards like capture cards.
@8:51 that light anomaly going into the NUC by the screws looks a bit spooky :D
sodimm, i have always heard it as "so" dim not s 0 dim
when usb was introduced computers were "USB host" only, recently we got stuff like raspi which is "usb otg", a special mode where you can plug it into a computers usb port and it pretends to be a keyboard or usb stick or something like that
would love if we could get a special mode on things like this where you plug a pcie computer into your main computer and they talk to each other.
idk how dual cpu motherboards work, if thats just sharing some pcie lanes between cpus, but imagine being able to drop in an extra CPU if you need more power, the 2 cpus could run independantly like this video, or together like dual cpu motherboards
also, i love your cat playing with the fan at 10:28
Although this is very interesting, in this current config you can’t use it to render your streams as the 2 computers can’t talk to each other. If they created this but with a HDMI in and HDMI passthru or something sort of virtual cable passthru then yes it’s can be a game changer for streamers. Right now it’s just using the main board for power to boot.
Imagine building a larger PC with multiple NUC Compute Elements. Is that possible? I really hope that's possible. Maybe that will be how we build systems in the future. We can dream.
Ahaha was thinking of doing this myself mate, thanks for saving me the time :D
10:20 the cat in the background. im in love
in the days of the first gen pentium processors, I remember seeing products like this. There were entire PCs on a PCI card. It was meant as an "easier" way to upgrade a PC, but it wasn't cost effective & didn't make that much sense. A streaming coprocessor is the definitely a 'killer app' for this form factor. It is an incredibly good use case.
The Intel VCA card is basically what you want. It is a compute card with 3 Xeons that appear to the host system as a network card so you can communicate with the PC within the PC. I think Intel could have done this with the new NUC formfactor as well. basically had a toggle switch on the PCB for "compute card" mode that turns it into a network card or perhaps both a network card and a video capture device so you could see the video output from the NUC on the host system.
I can see revision 2 now; The compute unit has a proprietary PCI-E slot which could interface with PCI-E 4.0 using a special adapter only available through Intel. And maybe,, if in secondary PC mode a utility for Windows to adjust timings and such, and special OBS setups which allow for interfacing with the machine without using PiP or KVM.
4:15 SO-DIMM, it's an acronym for Small Outline Dual In-line Memory Module
Small Outline Dual In-line Memory Module, so it would be pronounced "soh-dim"
Thank you, very much. In case nobody has ever told you this, you're terrific. Making two videos in two languages is awesome!
For the price you would probably be better off jumping to htpc, but it's a nice concept. It would be nice to have as an always on server with low power draw.
This is the best hack I've seen in a long time! Subscribed so I don't miss any updates.
Please continue working on this experiment :) This gave me so many ideas :)
Very neat. Some blade servers used this form factor a long time ago, where the main board was sued solely for power distribution. This is very much the same idea, although wasn't purposefully designed for that. What I would really appreciate is if Intel could perhaps create an option in the BIOS (likely in the next HW revision, if there will be one) to turn off the PCIe complex and only draw power from the slot. Or even better, make an option to use a few lanes to communicate with the "host" computer and create a fast point-to-point network. Very much like how Thunderbolt networking works. This is also "just" a PCIe connection between the two computers, but without the TB encapsulation.
The designations for memory sticks are just descriptive names for their form factor. SODIMM stands for "Small Outline Dual In-line Memory Module"
Taping the slot prevents the NUC from taking lanes from the GPU, but it also prevents the two systems from communicating over PCIe. Not that there's a driver for that yet, of course.
Bonus points would be doing something crazy like getting some kind of communication between the systems via PCI Express.
Finally! Was waiting for a video about this.
Fascinating. Thought your cat stalling one of the radiator fans was comical.
Cool video. Cant wait for the next part !
Nice work man! Keep it coming!
I love how curious the cat is
PCs within PCs are a fairly long-running thing. Apple's dark ages included Macintoshes that include a card for a secondary PC. The distinction is that Apple had their own M68k or PowerPC architecture, so Mac OS was basically all you had. With DOS compatibility cards, you could run a majority of Intel 386 software alongside Mac OS. Or later run Windows 95 in unison with Mac OS 7 on the then-stunning PowerPC architecture circa 1995.
That was super cool! Thanks for taking creative take on the hardware! Danke!
With DMA mapped memory over the PCIe bus with IOMMU this would be amazing for things like LookingGlass and Screamer. Second independent PC in a window without a virtual machine.
Is no one going to mention how the cat is sticking his hand into the SPINNING fans? 10:33
CM246 allows overclocking and allows 24 PCIe lanes. That is what that NUC has according to Intel ARK, and it basically is the combination of Z390 and the workstation equivalent chipset.
To be honest, it would be an interesting use case to have an Matx board and a nuc+pci extension board with a capture card sitting inside a full size chassis, maybe having a single watercooling loop for both systems. An even more compact streaming+capture system, or maybe even a secondary render farm or machine for Vm's.
Just to clarify, the Nuc is just taking power from the pcie slot to run it self? Also it is not visible to the rig it’s taking power from - meaning it has no idea its there and wouldn’t even know what to do with it if it did? If I’m correct is there a usecase for this?
I worked on something like this for the IBM AT system.
The Hornet board was a 80386/80387 daughterboard that used Intel's AboveBoard memory bus.
You unplugged the processor from the motherboard, plugged in an umbilical cable to the Hornet board.
The motherboard was used only for I/O functions; processing was on the Hornet and AboveBoard system.
Was it fast? The best speed we got out of it was a solid 36 Mhz using 32 Mhz rated parts.
Then it caught fire at Comdex.
Love your channel Roman, always good ideas you come up with :)
Based on your EPYC on a tr4 motherboard videos from a couple years ago. Have you tried booting the CPU's on a updated trx40 motherboard?? Wondering if 3gen threadripper is using the same memory controller as EPYC. Cheers
see to me, you run one of those in your PC with a M.2 to PCIe x4 for an HBA. you essentially end up with a low-end homelab inside your PC that can act as a NAS & A PF Sense Box all encapsulated into 1 case. very fun.
Intel: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Der8auer: "but there should be ways we can *fix* this"
That statement is invalid for years. Want a Proof?
Intel release a brand new Motherboard for every Gen of Core series. Not to mention sockets as well.
Meanwhile AMD from 2017 to 2020 stayed with AM4 socket and still basically all Ryzen series can run on any Motherboard from 2017 to 2020 without much problem.
when i heard that the compute modules would not work inside normal systems i thought that was a stupid choice. it could've easily been marketed as such. good to see that it can be easily modified to work in one though.
Now use a flexible pci extension and mount the NUC in the vertical GPU bracket of a PC case, otherwise it may fight for space physically in some systems. (it may still fight, if the system GPU is tall enough to interfere with the vertical position).
I've been looking for someone to finally do this, and thanks to god, someone did this
I'm surprised it took this long for someone to try this :-)
Interesting project. I would almost recommend a vertical GPU mounting bracket and a full watercooling set up and just run a PSU DESIGNED to run 2 PCs at the same time. Then you could reuse the parts and keep it mostly stock. We need a waterblock for the NUC compute module.
oh cool. i'll have to keep this in mind when i finally get the money to go full ham on playing around with hardware.
It has gotten to the point where a totally drunk Jim Keller turns up at a tech conference and is able to have five different engineering based conversations with five different intel cpu and gpu engineers. Reported by Tom on MLID.