Language teacher here, have read several of Krashen's books, used his methods on myself, then implemented them in my classroom. The results speak for themselves. Keep up the good work, gentlemen!
@@MrBenMhidi I started spending time each day talking to them in the language, mainly telling stories as I made hand gestures and drew on the board to aid comprehensibility.
That's the ideal, I just find it kinda difficult based on the red tape required for the curriculum set upon by the school to meet certain arbitrary test requirements. :/ I wish language classes, where I'm at personally, were more flexible so I could focus on comprehensible input.
@@Nirr0 True. I teach at a university, so I probably have more flexibility than some, but I do still find myself "teaching to the test" on occasion, because I still have to have some standard of assessment.
"We don't force it unless we think we are ready. We just wait, we just listen, and then it comes." "You're forbidden from correcting anybody for doing anything." Dr. Krashen deserves a Nobel prize for sharing this idea.
@@Klinoklaz I don't think you understood me. If you are learning mandarin, then native mandarin speakers WILL correct you every chance they get. Every time you even slightly cock up a tone or pronunciation, they have this habit. So if you want to learn language without being corrected, good luck doing it with chinese.
Without getting into the details, I obtained a high level in French and German through listening and reading, without any inclination to communicate. That took care of itself when I moved to Germany, but nowadays I can converse and write very well in French as well, despite the fact that I've hardly ever had occasion to speak it -- when there is a very rare opportunity, they're astonished when I tell them that I've hardly ever talked. The language establishes itself in your brain, piece by piece, simply from exposure. Strange as it may sound, we don't necessarily have to speak, to learn how to speak.
I’m at the stage where I’m debating whether to hire a tutor to help me practice speaking. Like you I’ve got to a good level of French and German without ever spending time practicing how to speak. Just reading and reading and more recently watching anything and everything on TH-cam. But like you say you just naturally become able to put sentences together if you spend enough time listening and reading the language. So I’m conflicted on whether it would even be worth finding someone to talk to to practise that aspect.
Love this conversation, and agree with most of what you say, but there is one thing that I would like to touch on, just because I feel it's important, and that is on the topic of correcting. Dr. Krashen said that mother's don't correct their children, but I hear mothers correct their children all the time. It may not always be in an explicit way, but I often hear it as the mother simply repeating what the child said, but correctly. In my personal experience, growing up in a bilingual household, my Czech acquisition was very reliant on correction, even though it's my first language. Perhaps if I had been living in the CZ and completely immersed in the language rather than just having it at home it would be different, but even so, while in Czech I hear parents correct their children all the time, and my grandma continues to do it to everyone this day. Now, you mentioned that when you correct someone during a lesson they turn around and say it incorrectly in the next sentence, and in my experience both as a student and as a teacher that is true, but it is also true that as time goes by and a mistake is corrected more than once, you eventually start to hear your own mistake, and then are able to fix it. Now, on the contrary, there are so many people I know in the US who have been there for over 20 years and continue to make basic grammatical errors, and having had conversations about it with them, they themselves claimed it was because no one ever corrected them. I also agree that one shouldn't worry about making mistakes, but that doesn't mean one can't strive to reduce them and that it isn't helpful to be corrected while speaking. Perhaps the question is more of when and how correction happens. When learning Spanish I often had people correct me when I spoke, which was extremely helpful. Now with mandarin, my greatest frustration (besides most people trying to speak English with me) is that very few people correct me when I am speaking, even after asking them to. The result of that is that it makes me very self conscious and unsure of whether or not what I am saying is correct, and it makes output more difficult, in contrast to having conversations with people who do correct me, and help me find words, or repeat what I say, but correctly, which makes me feel very comfortable and confident speaking with them and generally also makes for a more interesting conversation. I would argue that it helps me feel less pressure, because I know that I am being understood and that if I say something that doesn't make sense, I will he helped. It is clearly important on how people correct one when they are trying to speak, as of course it can be very distracting, and that it is not always helpful or appropriate, but in both my personal experience and in form what I have observed, being corrected during language learning is not only helpful but a very important part of learning a language and being able to speak it fluently. My best teachers have always not been shy to correct, and those I have who never do frustrate me beyond belief. Of course this is very nuanced and there is so much more that could be said on this topic, but it struck me as quite surprising that both of you seem to be against correcting across the board. I think it would be valuable to delve deeper into your perspective on this topic and perhaps have a discussion with a linguist who disagrees. Thanks for continually posting so much wonderful content!
What I was touched most in the video is that, when speaking, don't mind mistakes, and use simple worlds and sentences at the beginning, and always speak when you're ready. The Chinese education I had in school told me to use fancy sentences and words in your writings and speeches, which definitely isn't great. The amazing thing about native speakers, is they always choose surprisingly simple words and still communicate pretty well. In other words, never use complicated words unless necessary.
A great conversation between two Stephens! Many thanks from Tokyo. As an interpreter instructor, I actually tell my students to do shadowing and reading aloud so as to familiarize themselves with the English-language prosody and help them ease into the English language mode. This was how I was taught as an interpreter trainee many years ago. These techniques have been widely used at least in the training of interpreters here in Japan, and there has been a number of research on them. The research I read has found that these techniques work and produce measurable progress in Japanese learners of English.
Oh guys you´re so inspiring! Thank you so much for this conversation, so smart, and humble and open at the same time! You relax us and makes us want to be even more curious and confident, all the best and thanks again!!
I can relate to mr. Krashen. Never had amazing grades for my French, but I got interested in learning Arabic when I became 17 years old. After I noticed that apparently I could speak it after 2 years, while my French (8 years of school learning) never got that good. That's when it struck me that maybe motivation might be the trigger. And to stay motivated you need to get interesting input for yourself. This knowledge motivated me to study more languages.
I watched a BBC documentary on language acquisition featuring Dr Krashen when I was in my teens. I was never the same. He gave me not just a passion for languages, but for good science too.
Loved hearing some of the psychology behind why we sound so different and ( often bad) to ourselves while we're trying to speak out loud to a native vs talking to ourselves alone. I think it's extremely observant to say it's an "outsider-ness" we feel; I definitely feel like that, like an imposter sounding more ridiculous the more I try to do what I know is a more authentic accent. Hardly anyone I've found covers these topics and it really helps me to feel more validated in language learning struggles most don't talk about. When I have tried to frame myself as some actor doing a role or being asked to fake the accent to the best of my ability for the purpose of the production or to imitate it in a silly way, that's the only time I feel confident it's pretty good. The more you care, take it way too seriously and worry, it just seems to come out all over the place. But finding the balance between how to loosen up and still care is very very hard for me. Thank you for yet another wonderfully motivational video.
One thing is for sure: You'll never have a native speaker complain you sound like them or almost like them. And the respect you get is priceless, even if that means looking silly for some time.
I'm so glad ( and blessed) for finding this conversation here on TH-cam. And much more that you've mentioned Rubem Alves !!! Our beloved Professor. Gratitude and greetings from Brazil 🇧🇷🙏🏼💖
I am very happy to meet two super Heroes at the same setting. Really appreciate you both made this miracle happen. Inspirational!!! Love & Respect from Seoul. 서울
Thank you Steve and Stephen from another Stephen! As I said in a comment to your announcement video, Steve, I'm really pleased you're doing this one. Stephen Krashen's work has formed the intellectual foundation for my entire approach to language learning. Without it, I would have given up by now. And perhaps worse, I wouldn't understand so well how the mind works. His work deserves to be widely known (which should be easy since he communicates so well!) and should form the basis of language tuition in schools and elsewhere (much harder since there are so many preconceived notions!).
Interesting that Dr. Krashen has a background in music. I was also a music major once upon a time that dedicated hours to practicing my instrument. I've always felt that music, much like language learning, requires a synthesis of the mind and the heart in order to be truly successful. Both are highly technical endeavors that require a great deal of precise skills in order to perform efficiently, while at the same time, they must also be a free-flowing and carefree expressions of our inner selves that defy rigid boundaries in order to convey our deepest meanings. To become a master of either craft, it is necessary to find a balance between these two seemingly opposing forces.
painter here. same thing with us. it might not seem like it, but to a seasoned draftsperson, watercolorist, oil painter, landscape artist, they're communicating with colors, lines, texture, and light as much as you communicate with words. same idea as you said, it has to be free flowing and coming from the soul and also somewhat intellectual and thought deeply. the key (at least for me) is to reserve time for art making, and time for art study. im doing the same with arabic.
That was such a pleasure listening to so lively and bubbly but such intelligent men. The refrain of the video is we can't understand why everybody can't be as smart, well-read and experienced, motivated as us? The answer is simple - we are not.
Ha ha, I love how Krashen showers Kaufmann with compliments on his Mandarin, and says "Live with that!", or "I'm sorry to say all these nice things about you, but I have no choice..." So much respect for these two titans.
I found it very interesting that the two of you agreed there had been very little change in the approach to foreign language instruction the last thirty years (?). I taught foreign language at the university level for fifteen years from 1994 to 2009. I am very familiar with and highly respect Stephen Krashen's contribution to language acquisition theory. Within the years I taught at the university I must say that there was a definite attempt to change the pedagogy of language instruction at the university level. Foreign language textbooks went the way of the so-called "communicative approach" in that time period that I taught. In my humble opinion these books did not work well since the contents were still primarily grammar oriented with a lot of rules and explanations and some exercises to practice those rules. Often the grammar being taught was very scattered and not well organized due to the attempt to make the book more communicative in its instructional approach. The problem at the university level is that the average foreign language class does not meet enough hours during the semester to make a communicative approach in teaching effective especially when acquisition of grammar remains a strong focus of these books. A foreign language class at the university level literally has no intensity as would say a language institute or an English as a Second Language program in a primary school. Implementing Stephen Krashen's language acquisition approach requires much more time than a university classroom can afford.
What a privilege to listen to you both talk about language acquisition. I think comprehensible input is catching on, but studying makes us feel like we have more control, so it is easy to default to it. Also, like Krashen was saying, it can be hard to find input that is compelling for you. When I was in first grade, I had a teacher who was married to a Chinese woman and he taught us how to count to ten in Chinese. I wanted to know more, so my mom went to china town in NYC searching for books. She could only find very advanced material, not appropriate for my age. I remember we had audio tapes of people saying Chinese tones only. I had no idea what they were saying. Also, I would fall asleep to it. So, needless to say, that input was not effective. It is nice to know I am fluent in Spanish according to Steve Kaufman s definition 😊
Thank you so much for the videos. I enjoyed every single video clip of the two linguists analyzing language learning. It helped me a lot, and I shared your theories with my students. The most important part of your speech to me was the one Dr. Stefen mentioned: voluntarily and comprehensively reading. In my country, Taiwan, most university students want to speak English fluently. However, they rarely know that reading affects their speaking ability a lot as well.
This was an amazing interview of Dr Krashen, i'm so happy, i can understand every single word and all messages without closed captions, i'm learning English
Thank you so much for this conversation! You're both great 🥰 As a language teacher and language learner I can't agree more with everything you say, particularly about language mistakes. That's what I've been saying my whole life to my students and young teachers: our mistakes will not kill anyone!
I had exactly the same experience as Dr. Krashen's anecdote in both music class and French class at school and that set me up for now when I hear nothing but compliments on my Japanese accent. We have the accent in us, we are just reluctant to use it. Brilliant.
You are both amongst my idols of linguists. I am still using and sharing the Krashen's 5 hypotheses and Noticing theory with my students in Indonesia thru your youtube which is insanely good work. When I call my memories back What did and what I have been doing, they makes sense to me , specifically regarding comprehensible/optimal input and noticing (focus noticing).
This is very interesting and he’s certainly passionate about his research. 30 years ago I lived in Montreal. I spoke French with colleagues at the university. Once colleague kept correcting my French, hentold me not to speak like Quebecois, but to speak like the French. He told me not to say J’sais pas, but Je ne sais pas. I was supposed to not speak like locals. I gave up as I was demotivated. The main mistake I made in Canada was not to study grammar and vocabulary, I thought I could pick it up naturally, I couldn’t. I’m afraid I have to do some conscious learning alongside comprehensible input, otherwise I don’t learn.
Two of my favorite, modern linguaphiles proving and pushing the practical and no-nonsense aspects of language learning. Thank you for your hard work, your research and for your inspiring so many. Keep it up!
I loved the accents part. Amazing. I feel like the moment i start speaking russian in a russian style my accent improved a lot, without the fear to fell silly
When you learn a foreign language, even when you cook dishes from a country you are learning language from, the food tastes better... I believe learning languages open your mind in different levels... thank you both, cause your are heroes in the language field...
I’ve been self-studying Spanish for over a year. Recently have added Mandarin. Was so intimidated to attempt speaking Spanish because I know I’d make so many mistakes. Listening to this encourages me to just start speaking, I’ll figure it out!
For similarities between Espanol & Zhongwen, see websites Li Tuo Kobe, Spanish Subjunctive in English (?), 3? parts, in English & Spanish (?$ Powrie, Sean Chinese Counterfactual. (Subjunctive & Conditional Modes)
I learned quite a bit of spanish by reading it and listening to movies. Still intimidated to speak it despite the fact that I heard it growing up with it in my family but my mother never chose to speak it with me because she felt I would get confused and she struggled as a child. She was afraid for me, so I didn't learn it and its kind of sad because I feel I really missed out. I will make mistakes but its just attempting to go past our comfort zone we just have to learn to do it.
I absolutely agree with you that there is a shift of teachers' tasks. The shift from teaching to directing /giving advice to the learners to watch youtube. Thru carefully and expertly selected youtube leaners can acquire languages. Experts like you both are good models to make language acquisition happen. I was exposed with three languages when I was a kid. I used the three languages everyday to communicate. I didn't know English until the subject was introduced at school in year 7. It was a very very boring subject to me and I hated it most. Now I speak four langages and also I am an English teacher who is responsible for Language Acquisition Subject. Anyway you are very inspiring to me.
My name is Dhruba Rai and I was a tour guide in Nepal. I worked in EnglishJapanese,Spanish and German!I was able to speak Chinese Korean and French! In 2008 I came to USA and have been living ever since.I am out of practice my Korean French and Chinese! I like your platform and your Japanese is excellent
An extremely interesting video. Thanks! As an English teacher since 1989 and a langauge school owner in Barcelona since 2004, I see language acquisition and learning from a business point of view as well as a polyglot and language expert. There are constraints imposed on the sector by the students themselves who come with preconceieved ideas and HR managers in companies. We live or literally die by how many course we sell. As Dr Krashen mentioned, most teachers have too much work and lack of time and money to access material or go to TEFL conferences or my talks. I've found a novel way of including the 'immersion / natural approach' in our courses and I'm selling more because of it. My new book on learning a language (in a readable and accessible style!)includes my 34 years in the sector, 45 years learning languages and studying the theory, and the ideas by the two Steves here, Luca Lampariello, Lýdia Machová and many more. Looking forward to swapping experiences and learnings with you all by ZOOM soon! If I can find how to contact you!!!! I'm in Barcelona if you want to visit! 🤩
Guys, you both are amazing, extremely inspiring. Things you put into words allow me to feel good about my languages learning process. And also thank you for Vishivanka, Steve))
Outstanding discussion. The only thing is that “pronunciation” and “accent” were seemingly used interchangeably, but I don’t think they’re the exact same thing.
Both of you have helped me so much. Thank you! I aspire to be a polyglot. I think I am B2 in French. I know some Spanish and have started on German following your method and ideas.
Best greetings from Vienna!!😊 everyone seems to have started with French although the French are infamous for correcting everyone who tries to speak French, sacre bleu!!😂 as a mother I didn't correct my daughter but repeated it correctly or in a context brought up the correct version this is even more important today as there is (speaking as a European) no language homogeneity anymore in the kindergarden and schools and this together with the massive use of social media has taken a heavy toll at the average citizen's language proficieny
Shadowing is a specific exercise for improving your pronunciation. And yes it has to be done with simple phrases , not with interesting content than one wants to absorb and reflect upon. It' s a pronunciation drill. As for talking to yourself in the language you are learning, I think it is crucial. In particular it is crucial to bootstrap the process with which you end up thinking in that language and do not need to "translate" anymore.
Both of you changed the way that the process of learning the languages has been considered nowadays.😍 At least in the small part of the world. Thank you for that and keep spreading your words, because "skill building" methods are still predominant all around the world. 😏
Only thing I disagree with is the reading aloud bit… it’s so fun! Part of the joy of learning a language is being able to take pleasure from the sounds of it, the novelty of being able to speak out loud and play with the accents, and if I can do that while reading then I’m going to go ahead and do it.
I’m now conducting a classroom research on the acquisition of Japanese as the third language of G.4,5,6 kids in a primary school in a lower northern province of Thailand. I’m training 3 student-teachers to conduct a team teaching with a native Japanese who has volunteered to teach. He was trained in Japan to teach Japanese as a foreign language, but not quite good at teaching Japanese to Thai kids. The 3 student-teachers are Thai in the fourth year of the undergraduate program in Japanese language major, with a limit knowledge in the field of Education. I taught the kids myself last semester one hour per week to familiarize them with Japanese phonics, simple greetings, songs, vocabulary, and Hiragana; but I did not force them to take examination. This semester, they’re introduced to the story of the elephant called Hanako through the storybook read by the Japanese teacher, after learning Katakana letters and sample words explained by Thai teachers. Six hours have passed quite successfully. The kids will produce a Christmas song performance in Japanese & English at the school’s special event next week. My classroom research will end in March. Dr.Krashen’s theory is so important to this study of mine. Thanks.
The answer to your question as to why Teachers don't take the role of the "coach" probably has to do with traditional teaching methods taking precedent, but maybe also profit driven. For example it probably is more profitable to market a school which gives the impression of having "exclusive knowledge" than to have teachers teach from outsource knowledge and sources. Also the common consensus of most parents or people paying for education is that the teacher's job should be to "teach". Even if the more effective method is to allow people to explore on their own via different online sources, the person paying the money for a "teacher" may think the coach is not doing anything to help their education. From a marketing perspective this is suicide because it could be easily misconstrued that these teachers aren't doing enough work. Having teachers that aren't certified may also create political issues for a particular school too even though it may be extremely helpful to students because it is a point of possible contention others can use to discredit an educational organization. Unfortunately the problem is there's not enough public understanding on unprecedented teaching methods even though they make intuitive sense and is in some ways quite obvious. Lastly, the general public probably does not believe in the efficacy and idea of "language coaches". To the public it may seem like a gimmick or scam even though it makes sense after you've explained the concept. For there to be more language coaches available, there needs to be a market for it. For there to be a market for it, there needs to be *demand*. Demand will only come from the understanding that there is a *need* for it. If people do not think they need it, there will be no demand and no market opportunities, thus no language coaches. The clear solution would be to educating the public about the benefits and efficacy of language coaches vs teachers. Unfortunately this topic is rarely talked about which is why there is no market for this occupation.
Questions never answered. What material should be read? In Tagalog since I live in the Philippines, I have experienced 12 years of failure spending 5,000 dollars on conventional lessons. Then I switched to acquisition after viewing Prof. Brown's videos. Took three long years to reach 1,000 hours of readings by others. When I attempt to read it created frustration & anxiety. While I knew some or many words, I had no idea what was taking place in either the children's books or books for youth. So Mr. Kaufman, how will I ever know what a word means if I don't look them up when reading? For you both, why am I failing? I cannot even think of words to say. Just to let you both know, Metro Manila is the worst in getting help. All foreigners I know gave up. They included many who knew other languages. A Vietnamese friend had given up facing what I did, too. So my life is living in isolation. I grew tired of being alone in crowded rooms. My condo unit is now a prison. Mr. Kaufman, your company said and.failed to produce Tagalog. I kept waiting and sending emails. Your staff kept saying coming. After.a year and a half I gave up and told them to remove my email. I was even willing to pay for whatever you had no matter how undeveloped. My state is precarious. Not a good life in the past or now.
This is so interesting. Especially the discussion of "speaking too soon." I was skipped a grade so when I was in 7th grade I didn't go into the "aural aural" language classes that were started at that level. (My schedule was crammed with a lot of advanced courses and my mother was so upset I coudn'g take Latin!) So, I had to start French in the 9th grade, standard "book work" with a French grammar book (from France) and a French-Canadian teacher. I had this teacher for 4 years through high school. Eventually the classes "petered down" and it was ME and the aural aural kids. I was scared to death to speak! But, the teacher told my mother (who also taught in the school) that I wrote like a native and comprehended very well and that she considered me to be her best student! She urged my mom to get me to France over the summer to solidify the speaking skills. Unfortunately my father refused to let me go!
Here's my perspective as an ESL teacher. At the higher levels when students are trying to push past translating and into fluency, they are motivated by external opportunities such as a university degree from Canada. The universities want test scores, so the paying students come with a short amount of time to pass a test and consider that they'll become fluent later. So it's not often that teachers have students who are willing to spend time gaining comprehensible input.
Thanks for your explanations. I understand all but I'm not able to be a fluency speaker. I've thought : let's go and you'll see. You comfort me in this idea. OUF ! (in french)
Thanks Steve for making this happen! Love both of you. Hugs from Budapest and keep rocking! 🙂
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Krashen has a ton of books. Do you happen to know if there is one in particular that concisely lists the principles of learning a new language?
@@justinwr092 This one: Explorations in Language Acquisition and Use: The Taipei Lectures
@@LucaLampariello Thank you!
Luka Hello I just want to say you are doing great job.I watched all your videos. Steve and you motivate me to learn languages.
Language teacher here, have read several of Krashen's books, used his methods on myself, then implemented them in my classroom. The results speak for themselves. Keep up the good work, gentlemen!
Hello... what was your method with your students?
@@MrBenMhidi I started spending time each day talking to them in the language, mainly telling stories as I made hand gestures and drew on the board to aid comprehensibility.
@@coryjorgensen622 think you 👍👍👍
That's the ideal, I just find it kinda difficult based on the red tape required for the curriculum set upon by the school to meet certain arbitrary test requirements. :/ I wish language classes, where I'm at personally, were more flexible so I could focus on comprehensible input.
@@Nirr0 True. I teach at a university, so I probably have more flexibility than some, but I do still find myself "teaching to the test" on occasion, because I still have to have some standard of assessment.
"We don't force it unless we think we are ready. We just wait, we just listen, and then it comes."
"You're forbidden from correcting anybody for doing anything."
Dr. Krashen deserves a Nobel prize for sharing this idea.
Unrelated but nice pfp
@@yoru900 Super smart Cirno laughs at everything
"You're forbidden from correcting anybody for doing anything." Impossible when learning chinese.
@@taipeistreetroaming not really, th-cam.com/video/d0yGdNEWdn0/w-d-xo.htmlm16s this guy actually learned Mandarin in six months
@@Klinoklaz I don't think you understood me. If you are learning mandarin, then native mandarin speakers WILL correct you every chance they get. Every time you even slightly cock up a tone or pronunciation, they have this habit. So if you want to learn language without being corrected, good luck doing it with chinese.
My two language learning HEROES right here!!!! Love when you two have a conversation! Such a blessing for all of us LLs!!
Really enjoying this conversation! Thanks to The Two Steves!
Without getting into the details, I obtained a high level in French and German through listening and reading, without any inclination to communicate. That took care of itself when I moved to Germany, but nowadays I can converse and write very well in French as well, despite the fact that I've hardly ever had occasion to speak it -- when there is a very rare opportunity, they're astonished when I tell them that I've hardly ever talked. The language establishes itself in your brain, piece by piece, simply from exposure. Strange as it may sound, we don't necessarily have to speak, to learn how to speak.
I’m at the stage where I’m debating whether to hire a tutor to help me practice speaking. Like you I’ve got to a good level of French and German without ever spending time practicing how to speak. Just reading and reading and more recently watching anything and everything on TH-cam. But like you say you just naturally become able to put sentences together if you spend enough time listening and reading the language. So I’m conflicted on whether it would even be worth finding someone to talk to to practise that aspect.
Greetings from Kharkiv, Ukraine! Thank you for this interview!
So so glad I found both of these guys. I really don't think I would have ever turned the corner on my language learning without them.
Love this conversation, and agree with most of what you say, but there is one thing that I would like to touch on, just because I feel it's important, and that is on the topic of correcting. Dr. Krashen said that mother's don't correct their children, but I hear mothers correct their children all the time. It may not always be in an explicit way, but I often hear it as the mother simply repeating what the child said, but correctly. In my personal experience, growing up in a bilingual household, my Czech acquisition was very reliant on correction, even though it's my first language. Perhaps if I had been living in the CZ and completely immersed in the language rather than just having it at home it would be different, but even so, while in Czech I hear parents correct their children all the time, and my grandma continues to do it to everyone this day. Now, you mentioned that when you correct someone during a lesson they turn around and say it incorrectly in the next sentence, and in my experience both as a student and as a teacher that is true, but it is also true that as time goes by and a mistake is corrected more than once, you eventually start to hear your own mistake, and then are able to fix it. Now, on the contrary, there are so many people I know in the US who have been there for over 20 years and continue to make basic grammatical errors, and having had conversations about it with them, they themselves claimed it was because no one ever corrected them. I also agree that one shouldn't worry about making mistakes, but that doesn't mean one can't strive to reduce them and that it isn't helpful to be corrected while speaking. Perhaps the question is more of when and how correction happens. When learning Spanish I often had people correct me when I spoke, which was extremely helpful. Now with mandarin, my greatest frustration (besides most people trying to speak English with me) is that very few people correct me when I am speaking, even after asking them to. The result of that is that it makes me very self conscious and unsure of whether or not what I am saying is correct, and it makes output more difficult, in contrast to having conversations with people who do correct me, and help me find words, or repeat what I say, but correctly, which makes me feel very comfortable and confident speaking with them and generally also makes for a more interesting conversation. I would argue that it helps me feel less pressure, because I know that I am being understood and that if I say something that doesn't make sense, I will he helped. It is clearly important on how people correct one when they are trying to speak, as of course it can be very distracting, and that it is not always helpful or appropriate, but in both my personal experience and in form what I have observed, being corrected during language learning is not only helpful but a very important part of learning a language and being able to speak it fluently. My best teachers have always not been shy to correct, and those I have who never do frustrate me beyond belief. Of course this is very nuanced and there is so much more that could be said on this topic, but it struck me as quite surprising that both of you seem to be against correcting across the board. I think it would be valuable to delve deeper into your perspective on this topic and perhaps have a discussion with a linguist who disagrees. Thanks for continually posting so much wonderful content!
What I was touched most in the video is that, when speaking, don't mind mistakes, and use simple worlds and sentences at the beginning, and always speak when you're ready. The Chinese education I had in school told me to use fancy sentences and words in your writings and speeches, which definitely isn't great. The amazing thing about native speakers, is they always choose surprisingly simple words and still communicate pretty well. In other words, never use complicated words unless necessary.
Thanks to Steves for this amazing interview! Love from Ukraine 🇺🇦
"Culturally weightless" is the most beautiful phrase
Probably the most helpful 48 minutes I've ever had to help me understand how to learn language.
Fantastic talk! Krashen is such a good speaker, he could be talking about soil for 4 hours, and I'd still be listening 😄
Likewise here!
A great conversation between two Stephens! Many thanks from Tokyo. As an interpreter instructor, I actually tell my students to do shadowing and reading aloud so as to familiarize themselves with the English-language prosody and help them ease into the English language mode. This was how I was taught as an interpreter trainee many years ago. These techniques have been widely used at least in the training of interpreters here in Japan, and there has been a number of research on them. The research I read has found that these techniques work and produce measurable progress in Japanese learners of English.
It's so precious to listen to the olders! Learn to listen to them and respect them even more!
Oh guys you´re so inspiring! Thank you so much for this conversation, so smart, and humble and open at the same time! You relax us and makes us want to be even more curious and confident, all the best and thanks again!!
I can relate to mr. Krashen. Never had amazing grades for my French, but I got interested in learning Arabic when I became 17 years old. After I noticed that apparently I could speak it after 2 years, while my French (8 years of school learning) never got that good. That's when it struck me that maybe motivation might be the trigger. And to stay motivated you need to get interesting input for yourself.
This knowledge motivated me to study more languages.
I watched a BBC documentary on language acquisition featuring Dr Krashen when I was in my teens. I was never the same. He gave me not just a passion for languages, but for good science too.
Loved hearing some of the psychology behind why we sound so different and ( often bad) to ourselves while we're trying to speak out loud to a native vs talking to ourselves alone. I think it's extremely observant to say it's an "outsider-ness" we feel; I definitely feel like that, like an imposter sounding more ridiculous the more I try to do what I know is a more authentic accent. Hardly anyone I've found covers these topics and it really helps me to feel more validated in language learning struggles most don't talk about.
When I have tried to frame myself as some actor doing a role or being asked to fake the accent to the best of my ability for the purpose of the production or to imitate it in a silly way, that's the only time I feel confident it's pretty good. The more you care, take it way too seriously and worry, it just seems to come out all over the place. But finding the balance between how to loosen up and still care is very very hard for me.
Thank you for yet another wonderfully motivational video.
One thing is for sure: You'll never have a native speaker complain you sound like them or almost like them. And the respect you get is priceless, even if that means looking silly for some time.
I'm so glad ( and blessed) for finding this conversation here on TH-cam. And much more that you've mentioned Rubem Alves !!! Our beloved Professor. Gratitude and greetings from Brazil 🇧🇷🙏🏼💖
It's great to see these two gentlemen having a conversation. Both are a big inspiration to me in my journey to learn French.
Best cross over episode of my favorite language masters!
Love from Japan❤️
23:10 I love the fact that when Stephen start saying he has a joke about french, Steve immediately starts asking if it's clean ...
I'm learning English and this great video is comprehensible input for me. Thank you
Как приятно слушать прекрасных умных людей! Thank you so much, Steve and Stephen. Спасибо за интереснейшую беседу. Спасибо за поддержку Украины
I am very happy to meet two super Heroes at the same setting. Really appreciate you both made this miracle happen. Inspirational!!!
Love & Respect from Seoul. 서울
2 of my favorite people, 1 Zoom meeting... ❤🙌
Thank you Steve and Stephen from another Stephen! As I said in a comment to your announcement video, Steve, I'm really pleased you're doing this one. Stephen Krashen's work has formed the intellectual foundation for my entire approach to language learning. Without it, I would have given up by now. And perhaps worse, I wouldn't understand so well how the mind works. His work deserves to be widely known (which should be easy since he communicates so well!) and should form the basis of language tuition in schools and elsewhere (much harder since there are so many preconceived notions!).
Meeting of two great and brilliant minds of the present century. It's an honor to be able to watch and learn from you.
Interesting that Dr. Krashen has a background in music. I was also a music major once upon a time that dedicated hours to practicing my instrument. I've always felt that music, much like language learning, requires a synthesis of the mind and the heart in order to be truly successful. Both are highly technical endeavors that require a great deal of precise skills in order to perform efficiently, while at the same time, they must also be a free-flowing and carefree expressions of our inner selves that defy rigid boundaries in order to convey our deepest meanings. To become a master of either craft, it is necessary to find a balance between these two seemingly opposing forces.
painter here. same thing with us. it might not seem like it, but to a seasoned draftsperson, watercolorist, oil painter, landscape artist, they're communicating with colors, lines, texture, and light as much as you communicate with words. same idea as you said, it has to be free flowing and coming from the soul and also somewhat intellectual and thought deeply. the key (at least for me) is to reserve time for art making, and time for art study. im doing the same with arabic.
@@safir9780 wow. Good job.
@@CoachRS james gurney just came out with a video on this subject, after i wrote my comment. he's one of my art inspirations.
Perhaps all these are, like languages, combinations of
intuition, specific examples, etc.
& logic, general rules, etc.
每次听到Steve 讲到关于语言学习的经历和不同时期的理解,当然对于 Lingq 的受益着,我特别推荐大家继续关注Lingq .在未来的语言道路上继续进步和探索.对于阅读理解和听力理解的理解会加强自己的学习能力,很有收获的一次大师们对话,感谢两位大师.
That was such a pleasure listening to so lively and bubbly but such intelligent men. The refrain of the video is we can't understand why everybody can't be as smart, well-read and experienced, motivated as us? The answer is simple - we are not.
This is soooooooo awesome. I am a French teacher, and I am loving this. I will certainly be applying this with my students. Thank you so, so much.
Wow.. great to hear your experiences in Ethiopia. Thank you for learning our language Amharic and discovering our coffee as well.
Ha ha, I love how Krashen showers Kaufmann with compliments on his Mandarin, and says "Live with that!", or "I'm sorry to say all these nice things about you, but I have no choice..." So much respect for these two titans.
Tetsu! I'm a big fan I wish you had more TH-cam subs.
@@bilingualsecrets OMG, thanks for the nice words! And I agree, I also ish I had more subs!! Ha ha. Building it up slowly.
I found it very interesting that the two of you agreed there had been very little change in the approach to foreign language instruction the last thirty years (?). I taught foreign language at the university level for fifteen years from 1994 to 2009. I am very familiar with and highly respect Stephen Krashen's contribution to language acquisition theory. Within the years I taught at the university I must say that there was a definite attempt to change the pedagogy of language instruction at the university level. Foreign language textbooks went the way of the so-called "communicative approach" in that time period that I taught. In my humble opinion these books did not work well since the contents were still primarily grammar oriented with a lot of rules and explanations and some exercises to practice those rules. Often the grammar being taught was very scattered and not well organized due to the attempt to make the book more communicative in its instructional approach. The problem at the university level is that the average foreign language class does not meet enough hours during the semester to make a communicative approach in teaching effective especially when acquisition of grammar remains a strong focus of these books. A foreign language class at the university level literally has no intensity as would say a language institute or an English as a Second Language program in a primary school. Implementing Stephen Krashen's language acquisition approach requires much more time than a university classroom can afford.
What a privilege to listen to you both talk about language acquisition. I think comprehensible input is catching on, but studying makes us feel like we have more control, so it is easy to default to it. Also, like Krashen was saying, it can be hard to find input that is compelling for you. When I was in first grade, I had a teacher who was married to a Chinese woman and he taught us how to count to ten in Chinese. I wanted to know more, so my mom went to china town in NYC searching for books. She could only find very advanced material, not appropriate for my age. I remember we had audio tapes of people saying Chinese tones only. I had no idea what they were saying. Also, I would fall asleep to it. So, needless to say, that input was not effective.
It is nice to know I am fluent in Spanish according to Steve Kaufman s definition 😊
¡Que dos grandes!!! Admirables y respetables. 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
Listening to you both brings me so much joy 🤩 Thank you both
Thank you so much for the videos. I enjoyed every single video clip of the two linguists analyzing language learning. It helped me a lot, and I shared your theories with my students. The most important part of your speech to me was the one Dr. Stefen mentioned: voluntarily and comprehensively reading. In my country, Taiwan, most university students want to speak English fluently. However, they rarely know that reading affects their speaking ability a lot as well.
This was an amazing interview of Dr Krashen, i'm so happy, i can understand every single word and all messages without closed captions, i'm learning English
Such an honor to watch this two gentleman ❤️
Thank you so much for this conversation! You're both great 🥰 As a language teacher and language learner I can't agree more with everything you say, particularly about language mistakes. That's what I've been saying my whole life to my students and young teachers: our mistakes will not kill anyone!
I had exactly the same experience as Dr. Krashen's anecdote in both music class and French class at school and that set me up for now when I hear nothing but compliments on my Japanese accent. We have the accent in us, we are just reluctant to use it. Brilliant.
You are both amongst my idols of linguists. I am still using and sharing the Krashen's 5 hypotheses and Noticing theory with my students in Indonesia thru your youtube which is insanely good work. When I call my memories back What did and what I have been doing, they makes sense to me , specifically regarding comprehensible/optimal input and noticing (focus noticing).
This is very interesting and he’s certainly passionate about his research. 30 years ago I lived in Montreal. I spoke French with colleagues at the university. Once colleague kept correcting my French, hentold me not to speak like Quebecois, but to speak like the French. He told me not to say J’sais pas, but Je ne sais pas. I was supposed to not speak like locals. I gave up as I was demotivated. The main mistake I made in Canada was not to study grammar and vocabulary, I thought I could pick it up naturally, I couldn’t. I’m afraid I have to do some conscious learning alongside comprehensible input, otherwise I don’t learn.
Two of my favorite, modern linguaphiles proving and pushing the practical and no-nonsense aspects of language learning. Thank you for your hard work, your research and for your inspiring so many. Keep it up!
Dr Stephen e Steve, muito obrigada por este vídeo, vai me ajudar muito nos meus estudos❤️
I loved the accents part. Amazing. I feel like the moment i start speaking russian in a russian style my accent improved a lot, without the fear to fell silly
When you learn a foreign language, even when you cook dishes from a country you are learning language from, the food tastes better... I believe learning languages open your mind in different levels... thank you both, cause your are heroes in the language field...
Intriguing, informative and quite entertaining discussion. The theory on innate potential to mimic native accents was a new discovery for me.
I’ve been self-studying Spanish for over a year. Recently have added Mandarin. Was so intimidated to attempt speaking Spanish because I know I’d make so many mistakes. Listening to this encourages me to just start speaking, I’ll figure it out!
I´m in the same situation in respect to English. Don´t worry about it, You just need consistency and eventually you´ll be speaking at a great level.
For similarities between Espanol &
Zhongwen, see websites
Li Tuo Kobe, Spanish Subjunctive
in English (?), 3? parts, in English & Spanish (?$
Powrie, Sean Chinese Counterfactual. (Subjunctive &
Conditional Modes)
I learned quite a bit of spanish by reading it and listening to movies. Still intimidated to speak it despite the fact that I heard it growing up with it in my family but my mother never chose to speak it with me because she felt I would get confused and she struggled as a child. She was afraid for me, so I didn't learn it and its kind of sad because I feel I really missed out. I will make mistakes but its just attempting to go past our comfort zone we just have to learn to do it.
I absolutely agree with you that there is a shift of teachers' tasks. The shift from teaching to directing /giving advice to the learners to watch youtube. Thru carefully and expertly selected youtube leaners can acquire languages. Experts like you both are good models to make language acquisition happen. I was exposed with three languages when I was a kid. I used the three languages everyday to communicate. I didn't know English until the subject was introduced at school in year 7. It was a very very boring subject to me and I hated it most. Now I speak four langages and also I am an English teacher who is responsible for Language Acquisition Subject. Anyway you are very inspiring to me.
This is truly a meeting of the minds. How’d I miss this one
Thank both of you for sharing your knowledge with us.
Open Access should be a standard in academia in an ideal world. Knowledge is a public good.
My name is Dhruba Rai and I was a tour guide in Nepal. I worked in EnglishJapanese,Spanish and German!I was able to speak Chinese Korean and French!
In 2008 I came to USA and have been living ever since.I am out of practice my Korean French and Chinese!
I like your platform and your Japanese is excellent
あなたの 日本語は じょうず です。
Thank you two of you. This conversation was tremendously helpful for keeping motivated on learning languages.
I really wish you guys went on for hours. Hopefully next time! Love every minute.
What a lovely and fascinating conversation. Thank you!
An extremely interesting video. Thanks! As an English teacher since 1989 and a langauge school owner in Barcelona since 2004, I see language acquisition and learning from a business point of view as well as a polyglot and language expert. There are constraints imposed on the sector by the students themselves who come with preconceieved ideas and HR managers in companies. We live or literally die by how many course we sell. As Dr Krashen mentioned, most teachers have too much work and lack of time and money to access material or go to TEFL conferences or my talks. I've found a novel way of including the 'immersion / natural approach' in our courses and I'm selling more because of it. My new book on learning a language (in a readable and accessible style!)includes my 34 years in the sector, 45 years learning languages and studying the theory, and the ideas by the two Steves here, Luca Lampariello, Lýdia Machová and many more. Looking forward to swapping experiences and learnings with you all by ZOOM soon! If I can find how to contact you!!!! I'm in Barcelona if you want to visit! 🤩
Thank you for this interview! I am a huge fan of Dr. Krashen!
This is such an important video for both language learners and teachers. Thank you so much!
Wow, it's so cool! Mr Steve Kaufmann wears vyshivanka 👍🏻 We are appreciated it.
21:09 i love this part. I hope more languages are taught in schools this way.
This has been so motivating for me. Thank you to both of you.
Krashen has an amazing and exciting story!!
Guys, you both are amazing, extremely inspiring. Things you put into words allow me to feel good about my languages learning process.
And also thank you for Vishivanka, Steve))
What a great conversation! Thanks a lot, Steves 😊.
Fantastic conversation. Always a delight, Stephen and Steve.
Outstanding discussion. The only thing is that “pronunciation” and “accent” were seemingly used interchangeably, but I don’t think they’re the exact same thing.
Both of you have helped me so much. Thank you! I aspire to be a polyglot. I think I am B2 in French. I know some Spanish and have started on German following your method and ideas.
Wow two giants of language learning!
Steve you are our man 🙏
Best greetings from Vienna!!😊 everyone seems to have started with French although the French are infamous for correcting everyone who tries to speak French, sacre bleu!!😂 as a mother I didn't correct my daughter but repeated it correctly or in a context brought up the correct version this is even more important today as there is (speaking as a European) no language homogeneity anymore in the kindergarden and schools and this together with the massive use of social media has taken a heavy toll at the average citizen's language proficieny
They are such sweethearts, both of them. Love, love the video!
Excellent!!!!! Quelle chance pour l’humanité !
Shadowing is a specific exercise for improving your pronunciation. And yes it has to be done with simple phrases , not with interesting content than one wants to absorb and reflect upon.
It' s a pronunciation drill.
As for talking to yourself in the language you are learning, I think it is crucial. In particular it is crucial to bootstrap the process with which you end up thinking in that language and do not need to "translate" anymore.
Dismissed by linguists ages ago, unconditionally worshipped on TH-cam. The medium is the message.
sure it's very eductional, but also very wholesome. can you name a more iconic duo?
Both of you changed the way that the process of learning the languages has been considered nowadays.😍 At least in the small part of the world. Thank you for that and keep spreading your words, because "skill building" methods are still predominant all around the world. 😏
Thank you so much for this interview! You guys are just amazing! 🙏
Fantastic conversation! Very useful and insightful!
Only thing I disagree with is the reading aloud bit… it’s so fun! Part of the joy of learning a language is being able to take pleasure from the sounds of it, the novelty of being able to speak out loud and play with the accents, and if I can do that while reading then I’m going to go ahead and do it.
Not against it, just something I don't do. We should all do the things we enjoy doing in the language.
Awesome! I didn't watch it yet, but I can't be more excited. My favorite adventurers are in a same frame!
I’m now conducting a classroom research on the acquisition of Japanese as the third language of G.4,5,6 kids in a primary school in a lower northern province of Thailand. I’m training 3 student-teachers to conduct a team teaching with a native Japanese who has volunteered to teach. He was trained in Japan to teach Japanese as a foreign language, but not quite good at teaching Japanese to Thai kids. The 3 student-teachers are Thai in the fourth year of the undergraduate program in Japanese language major, with a limit knowledge in the field of Education. I taught the kids myself last semester one hour per week to familiarize them with Japanese phonics, simple greetings, songs, vocabulary, and Hiragana; but I did not force them to take examination. This semester, they’re introduced to the story of the elephant called Hanako through the storybook read by the Japanese teacher, after learning Katakana letters and sample words explained by Thai teachers. Six hours have passed quite successfully. The kids will produce a Christmas song performance in Japanese & English at the school’s special event next week. My classroom research will end in March. Dr.Krashen’s theory is so important to this study of mine. Thanks.
Fantastic! Thank you so much for sharing your conversation with us :)
It is my great honor to listen to one of the most influential gurus in English Language Teaching.
The answer to your question as to why Teachers don't take the role of the "coach" probably has to do with traditional teaching methods taking precedent, but maybe also profit driven. For example it probably is more profitable to market a school which gives the impression of having "exclusive knowledge" than to have teachers teach from outsource knowledge and sources.
Also the common consensus of most parents or people paying for education is that the teacher's job should be to "teach". Even if the more effective method is to allow people to explore on their own via different online sources, the person paying the money for a "teacher" may think the coach is not doing anything to help their education. From a marketing perspective this is suicide because it could be easily misconstrued that these teachers aren't doing enough work.
Having teachers that aren't certified may also create political issues for a particular school too even though it may be extremely helpful to students because it is a point of possible contention others can use to discredit an educational organization. Unfortunately the problem is there's not enough public understanding on unprecedented teaching methods even though they make intuitive sense and is in some ways quite obvious.
Lastly, the general public probably does not believe in the efficacy and idea of "language coaches". To the public it may seem like a gimmick or scam even though it makes sense after you've explained the concept. For there to be more language coaches available, there needs to be a market for it. For there to be a market for it, there needs to be *demand*. Demand will only come from the understanding that there is a *need* for it. If people do not think they need it, there will be no demand and no market opportunities, thus no language coaches. The clear solution would be to educating the public about the benefits and efficacy of language coaches vs teachers. Unfortunately this topic is rarely talked about which is why there is no market for this occupation.
Questions never answered.
What material should be read? In Tagalog since I live in the Philippines, I have experienced 12 years of failure spending 5,000 dollars on conventional lessons. Then I switched to acquisition after viewing Prof. Brown's videos. Took three long years to reach 1,000 hours of readings by others. When I attempt to read it created frustration & anxiety. While I knew some or many words, I had no idea what was taking place in either the children's books or books for youth. So Mr. Kaufman, how will I ever know what a word means if I don't look them up when reading?
For you both, why am I failing? I cannot even think of words to say. Just to let you both know, Metro Manila is the worst in getting help. All foreigners I know gave up. They included many who knew other languages. A Vietnamese friend had given up facing what I did, too. So my life is living in isolation. I grew tired of being alone in crowded rooms. My condo unit is now a prison.
Mr. Kaufman, your company said and.failed to produce Tagalog. I kept waiting and sending emails. Your staff kept saying coming. After.a year and a half I gave up and told them to remove my email. I was even willing to pay for whatever you had no matter how undeveloped.
My state is precarious. Not a good life in the past or now.
We are getting closer on Tagalog. Hope to have it on LingQ in the fall.
awesome, the idea of being act as a game was fanatic and the significance of reading
This is so interesting. Especially the discussion of "speaking too soon." I was skipped a grade so when I was in 7th grade I didn't go into the "aural aural" language classes that were started at that level. (My schedule was crammed with a lot of advanced courses and my mother was so upset I coudn'g take Latin!) So, I had to start French in the 9th grade, standard "book work" with a French grammar book (from France) and a French-Canadian teacher. I had this teacher for 4 years through high school. Eventually the classes "petered down" and it was ME and the aural aural kids. I was scared to death to speak! But, the teacher told my mother (who also taught in the school) that I wrote like a native and comprehended very well and that she considered me to be her best student! She urged my mom to get me to France over the summer to solidify the speaking skills. Unfortunately my father refused to let me go!
The 2 Steve's. In Spanish someone with the same name is called, "tocayo" or "tocaya" for female.
In Russian, it's a тёзка (tyozka). And if you sit between someone and their тёзка, you can make a wish :).
Haha thanks guys, these are the two languages I’m studying
this video is amazing... and happened on my birthday... qué fascinante, una vida de juego que me enamora más cada día... mnogo se zahvaljujem
Here's my perspective as an ESL teacher. At the higher levels when students are trying to push past translating and into fluency, they are motivated by external opportunities such as a university degree from Canada. The universities want test scores, so the paying students come with a short amount of time to pass a test and consider that they'll become fluent later. So it's not often that teachers have students who are willing to spend time gaining comprehensible input.
Great conversation, thank you guys!
Thanks you both great conversation
Dear sir, I am very appreciate your theory
Thanks for your explanations. I understand all but I'm not able to be a fluency speaker. I've thought : let's go and you'll see. You comfort me in this idea. OUF ! (in french)