I actually think its appropriate to mention your Genki vids and here's why. In 2021, I don't think its fair, or even appropriate, to expect a book to be a do-it-all for learning a language. Maybe back before the availability of online resources. But it wasn't good then, just it-was-what-it-was. Most of these Tobira improvements we already have access to, just through other means. I can put actual photos in my Anki decks and clip in sound files. As you mention, neither are great for kanji. And for that, there's other, better resources. And, then there's the ecosystem of conversational practice/listening aids/immersion stuff, online access to Japanese new and television, didactic vids like your own...the ecosystem is disjointed but extremely large and in most cases, far more developed than a closed system could accomplish. A book can't compete with that. It can be part of that. But, that gets back to you mentioning your vids. Can the book be better than Genki, in the current ecosystem? Maybe. But, probably, as you say, not enough to make it worth jumping ship. Honestly, and this is something to all language teachers, not just those of Japanese (although Japan is perplexing and frustrating, given its a modern post-development nation). Stop writing books as though its 1994 and this is the only available source. I have the same problem with my Turkish language books. If you are targeting a western audience (which is a given, if your text is providing into lessons in [insert western language]), write your books with the intent of bridging lessons to available online ecosystem of resources. Tell the new learner which you had in mind and give suggestions for further study. Help them into the ecosystem. You will not accomplish with a book what other types of media can accomplish. Different tools, different jobs. This is the very thing I do when I teach biology.
I see your thesis and I tend to agree, but only to a point. I'm a long-time learner of European languages but a beginner in Japanese. And the wealth of materials is simply overwhelming, despite Japanese not being the most studied of languages. I found myself wishing for a single "package", at least for beginner/preintermediate level. Approaching a language is already challenging enough, especially if you self-study. Having to sift through dozens of apps, web-pages, resources of any kind is flooring me. What I really wish existed is a textbook with a couple of disks of audio/video materials/exercises and a functioning app which replicates the same materials and adds some kana/kanji practice and perhaps a vocabulary deck.
I’ve got Genki, and now I’ve got Tobira. And I’ve got their shiny new workbook on order. Tobira is exponentially better for a beginner. Even without the workbook, the website has lots of extra material. The book itself is gentle and friendly. I like the way it starts out by asking questions like, do you have similar phrases in your language? Or do you make similar distinctions between formal and casual situations in your language? It’s all extremely friendly and gentle, and I like that. I’ve seen some really clinical sounding textbooks where they throw weird English words like “copula” at people. They leave you wondering if you’re even a native English speaker because you don’t even recognize the English words they’re using.
YES! Small font! I don't know why but i love it. I just shows they don't want to waste any space and they want to give you as much for what you paid for as possible Also the pitch accent is what had me. I've been trying to figure out a way to learn that for awhile now. That would be great
Yes, it is a significantly better textbook: better grammar explanations with more examples, more natural dialogues, extensive amount of exercises, overall better content layout, a lot more drawings/pictures to convey vocabulary definitions and other ideas, all color pages in arguably better paper quality. Let's not oversee the fact that the web content for Tobira is included with the book purchase and the Genki apps you mentioned are $5.99 each, which for some reason you had avoided stating. Source: I own both book series and have purchased all the Genki apps.
Since when did they start charging for the Genki apps??? Edit: wow, I just checked, and you are correct. Except, I'm mainly talking about Otonavi in this video (all the audio content) which is free. The (now) paid apps are flashcards and stuff, which I don't really think are necessary anyway.
@ToKini Andy so I had to pay even more, like around 20.00 for one of the Genki apps at a higher price for either android or IOS(more for one than the other)... forgot which as I use both....anyways... So the head of the Japanese Language department of the school district of where we both live(she happens to be a friend of my wife and our landlord too) informed me that the district has discontinued using Genki and switch last year to a new text that I was unfamiliar with, because "the font is too small and the students can't read it well and complain about it"... this has also been a shared major complaint of mine with Genki, as I cannot read the kanji prints either and believe this to be a major contributing factor of not being "integrated" with having learned any kanji with Genki, as I just skip over it chapter after chapter since I cannot see it unless I have a magnifying glass near by. I would have gladly paid more for a bigger textbook. Btw... this is not a small school district either, as it is a large suburb of Portland Oregon . I also believe that the poor American diets are a major contributor to poor vision, as high sugar intake alters vision, and too much misc screen time too perhaps? ALSO, I cant remember the name of the にほんごの教科書 that the district switched to, but can ask if you'd like, maybe it's this one in your video??
Just wanted to clarify for anyone reading madmax's comment: While high blood sugar levels can be a risk factor for certain eye conditions like cataracts, diabetic retinopathy, age-related macular degeneration and glaucoma, most common vision issues (hyperopia, myopia, astigmatism...) exist simply due to the shape of a person's eyeball. Farsightedness, for example, which makes it difficult for people to read, is often already present at birth.
I like the separate-style word lists without pictures as they allow you to cover-and-test various words to guess meaning and reading. I’ve found it to be highly effective in cramming vocabulary into short-term memory. With a picture format it’s harder to test yourself, although very nice for initial exposure.
Yeah, I think I'm fine with Genki and Quartet. I'm glad you mentioned Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course book. Not many people mention it from what I've seen.
My copy of Genki: Arrives literally TODAY. Andy: "Did you just made a huge mistake? let's find out" EDIT: people, please, it's a joke. I know Genki is a great book, but it just so happened that I finally decided to buy it and literally the day I was receiving it, Andy uploaded this video, and I just found the situation to be quite funny, that's it.
Nah don't worry. Genki might have some 'flaws' its obvious because no textbook is perfect but for a beginner its definitely one of the best picks and beginner friendly. Don't worry about other textbooks. I would advise that you stick to the available resources and after you benefit from all of them, you can move on with something different.
@@fluxx9458 oh, for sure. I just found it very funny that when I finally decided to go ahead and purchase genki, because everybody was talking about it and there's so much great content out there using genki as a reference, literally the day the book was being delivered to me, Andy posts a video checking out another book lol. but yeah, I'm having a great time with it and it is a great book regardless.
Literally did not know that there were kanji pages at the back of Genki... just learned something new. I think it's smarter to have it in the chapters personally.
I am an online Japanese teacher. I am using Genki, but, I also used Tobira for intermediate because of my students request. I feel the reading section level of Tobira is JLPT N1 ＆2. So, actually, its not for intermediate students, especially you are self-studying. I feel Japanese From Zero is an innovative textbook that we Japanese really should respect. I use that series for 1 year for my online lesson, but I realized there arent enough practice. also, the author sometimes make mistakes in capturing our grammar and good way of speaking. I think since Japanese is very diffrent language to Eurpoeans the learners need to use multiple materials including on-line lesson. In fact, we Japanese study English for 8years intensively at schools using textbooks, but most Japanese people cant speak English. Even, they cant write English sentences.
Sorry, but you clarify please - "The reading section level of Tobira is JLPT N1 and N2"? - I ask because I finished (and revised quite a substantial amount over the years) Tobira (the intermediate to advanced Japanese book) and I think that it is at most reaching N2 level but feels mostly around N3, as the book I am currently using; "New Authentic Japanese; Progressing from Intermediate to Advanced) is more advanced and I believe it to be around N2-N1 level. Thanks
I would love to see some reading material for those who are just learning Japanese that slowly introduces the Kanji with lots of repetition for those of us who are slow learners. Kind of like the sight word books we have for our 1st graders in America. Thank you very much.
I never found there to be a gap between Genki 2 and Tobira Intermediate. If you do the reading sections of Genki 2, it preps you well enough that you can go into Tobira with no problem. Unfortunately I feel like everyone just stops after the grammar stuff is finished.
I was watching the review when my 8 years son came by and said wow!! I thought he liked the book and the coloured pictures but he said this guy has a Nintendo switch 😁 To each his priorities I guess 😅 Thanks for the review. Looks interesting but I am past beginner's level now so I stick with Quartet for the moment.
I'm a beginner and since everyone raves about the intermediate tobira book, I was very excited when the beginning tobira book came out and purchased it right away. After skipping through the pages multiple times I have decided not to use it and go with a different beginner book. You mentioned the font being very small, and that's my biggest issue. I have poor eyesight and even with my glasses on I have a hard time focussing on all the letters because it's just so small. Because the font is so small, more content fits on a page, making my eyes feel overwhelmed with all the information on a single page.
I agree 100%. It's why I never used the intermediate book, and it's one of the main things I dislike about this book. I think they really dropped the ball leaving out those with poor eyesight on this one.
I have fairly good eyesight but with Kanji and being a beginner, having the font be small with a new writing style is a huge deal breaker for everyone I think. This is something I think many of us take for granted with the language we are accustom to.
I wonder if getting Tobira as an ebook would be helpful then. I also have bad eyesight, but it's to the point where even with glasses I still need large print font to read comfortably. So I have found that ebooks, or apps that support larger font sizes are the best way to go for most reading. I wonder if that might help those of us who are vision impaired with Tobira.
I used to have normal sight, but I am now middle-aged and the normal sight loss is creating some problems with small fonts. And this is a widespread problem with Japanese textbooks, unfortunately.
First of all, it is always good to have options. As a person who can purchase multiple books, good things that every text book is different. So here is my opinion: 1. When you study Japanese or on many studing books reviewers do not mention that Genki series have other books to complement. Like, yes, there is a text book, but genki also have an app for vocabulary and kanji, and additional book named Kanji Look and Learn as textbook and workbook. Genki 1 is about JLPT 5 level and with Genki 2 is about JLPT 4, series also have answer key book and CD with Audio. From my point of view as a person close to 40 y.o, Genki is book made for students of college/university and most topics are more around that. 2. Another good book is Minna no Nihon Go, but that one have 9 books in each series and if you really serious about it you better get all 9. This one is better for business people like me, topics are more broad, its about office work, and travel and visits and meetings - so those are better suited for 25+ age people. Definitely, grammar is way better explained in Genki, but I can assure that I use both at the same time and learning from both sources serves me well. About JLPT5/4 is similar to Genki, 1 for JLPT 5, and 2 is for JLPT4. 3. Now about Tobira. Is this only Textbook? No CD? What is approximate JLPT Lvl?IS there a texbook? Additional apps? what is the content evolving around? Student life? Work life? According to what I've heard in this review, they do not compete, they may complete each other, but Genki and even Minna are much broader resource. I'll definitely try and all sources are good for me, but I disagree that those compete.
Cool!! Didn't even know that they were doing a book for beginners! Really, really enjoyed their Intermediate book a few years ago so I'm probably going to pick this one up for reviewing some old stuff ^^ Mostly because I'm sick of going back to Genki, and while the two seemed to have pretty similar content, I do love that Tobira had so much color in it from what you showed us :D
This looks like a neat book but, I’m still more interested in finding something that will support solo learning better thank Genki. Genki is the old favorite but a lot of us are not learning in a classroom and so all the pair work is very meh. I do love your videos to help with that. So thanks.
I recommend getting Tango anki decks for solo learning. You will need to purchase the books to prove purchase, but once you have those of us who use the Tango resource anki decks will be happy to share it (no exceptions about having legitimate proof of purchase).
@@sukiiriinaa that begs the question, how and where did you get it? Those of us that have it (that I personally know) have been very careful to respect copyright and assure the creators and publishers of the content get paid for their work.
@@sukiiriinaa yeah so I just checked and yeah there are several pirated versions of our deck being shared illegally. Looks like this started sometime last year. It's called piracy.
I picked up Tobira 1 and 2 at Kinokuniya in Osaka and I think they are much better than Genki. One thing I really like is the the Kanji is introducted in the lesson and you do not have to go back and forth in the book like you do with Genki. I studied Japanese in university and picked up Genki and Tobira to compare them, and I thing both would have been great to use in class. Tobira has a lot of improvements over Genki. Tobira is more teaches more up to date Japanese, Genki seems to be old fashioned Japanese. I gave them to my friend who wants to self study Japanese and she told me she likes Tobira over Genki as Tobira seems more up to date Japanese and easier to understand.
When I was a university student in Japanese classes, we used Genki (at one uni) and Tobira (at the university I transferred to) and Tobira was a lot more comprehensive. My professor didn’t just use that, though. He had us learn shadowing, made his own lessons and quizzes, etc. and Tobira was mostly just one resource. And that was back in 2010/11 and I didn’t know there was a website component. It’s cool looking back seeing you flip through it! Very 懐かしい 😂
Soo... I learned something interesting today about "Tobira" I was researching continuing my formal Japanese Language path after I complete my current 2 year cycle of Elementary Japanese using Genki at University (the one I am attending only goes as high as Genki II)... Went to look at U of M, since I am in Michigan and it is close to me... They are the 'authors' of Tobira and looks like they are only using those textbooks to teach Japanese..... Interesting... Just a funny thing to pass along to you. So, most likely I will invest in the "Quartet" books after I finish Genki II and continue on my own with the aid of your videos! Love the channel!
Cool video. I'm glad you spotlighted another book. I'm on Genki 2 and my experience with Genki 1 and 2 has been overall positive. Learning another language for me has always been a struggle. Genki isn't perfect, but I'm really impressed, and comfortable with the presentation the book has. Just seeing you flip through Tobira and noticing the small font is would have been enough for me as a beginner to lose confidence on the first day of using the book. Genki obviously has flaws, but I find that using those books in addition to other resources like your videos, some other TH-cam videos, teaching apps, etc. helps compensate for the drawbacks Genki has.
curse my affections for fresh textbooks, im going trough another series which is working very well for me but ill also be going trough the original tobira grammar book as well. knowing that tobira will have a whole series makes me wanna restart so i can go trough a single series for my grammar
Perhaps. Although Genki has Quartet for continuation which basically covers the same material as Tobira Intermediate. So it will depend on whether that gets popular before Tobira Beginner or not. And whether western universities change. That's a big part of why Genki has dominated.
Interesting. I'm working through Genki and plan to do Tobira afterwards. It seems the main issue of the jumps is the sheer length of the texts and it seems like these Tobira beginner books have longer texts. So maybe this will act as a better bridge? Saying that, it doesn't seem like a major improvement and Tobira 2 isn't coming out for a while so I think it's pointless to seriously consider until Tobira 2 is out, by which point most people studying now will probably be past the point of needing that text book
I had to purchase Genki for my class. Honestly I didn't like the book from the very beginning. It doesn't seem to be well organized and the authors do a poor job introducing the vocabulary. They try to group new words but consistently miss something. They add many words that are not used in the lesson which is another issue. I accidentally found Tobira on Amazon and I am very happy that I did. Now I use Genki in the class and Tobira after the class. It is true that both book are greatly redundant but this actually helps in my situation. Tobira is much better organized and is created with learner's needs in mind. Tobira makes much more sense than Genki. It is much more convenient, pleasant and fun to work with. It looks like the authors of Tobira knew about Genki's flaws and did their best to fix them. Tobira workbook is being released this month and I can't wait to get it.
Me watching you guys complaining about every small little thing in those many books available nowadays and remembering when I started learning in the early 2000 with the only textbook available at that time that had some Romaji "Minna no nihongo", almost no resources, no apps, no TH-cam channels, no google translator, no italki, just a poorly written pocket disho to help and a lot of courage to try to communicate with natives and learn from terrible mistakes, embarrassments and frustrations. You guys have EVERYTHING and should be beyond glad you have so much, just be glad whatever you buy nowadays will be thousands of light years ahead of what it was when I started studying.
It sounds like if I had Tobira and my friend had Genki we wouldn't notice we were talking about different text books when we discuss Japanese learning.
I’m deciding on which one to get. As I’m very visual, colors and even a smaller, better arranged font can make all the difference. I’m not interested in taking any exams any time soon. Natural dialogue however is a very important factor. More dialogue, even better. I’ve been following half the genki 1 videos here and elsewhere without a book in front of me (I got some head-start with different material). So you can benefit from genki videos without it. I’m tipping more towards the tobira at the moment.
I wish I'd found your channel earlier. I bought the So Matome N5, Try N5 and 1000 essential vocabulary for N5, as well as the official test books. I think I should have gone for either Tobira or Genki. Actually I think I should still get one of them on top the material I already bought ..... (The So Matome N5 kinda sucks and I think there is no way it can be used as a main textbook. The Try book is pretty good)
I'm going to crib your "only so much room for originality at the N5 level" and say that most of the lessons are going to be similar between the two books. They're aiming to accomplish the same thing with the same method, target material, and target outcome, so they're going to be similar. Typing is a cool feature if you're using a native keyboard, but most IMEs allow typing phonetically for Japanese. Would be much more useful for Korean, since I haven't seen a phonetic IME for it. I'm actually a fan of the vocabulary presentation (with pictures plus plain list) because I feel that seeing information in different formats can aid integration. I agree that it's redundant, but I kind of like it. So, from your comparison, it's six one, half-dozen the other, depending on individual preference and learning style. Kudos for the solid, fair comparison. The 150 yen difference isn't enough to sway my personal choice here, and the extra polish on some points in Tobira might be a call to Genki to dust off a new edition with some of these features (like you say, Genki 2.5). My Japanese is sub-survival level, but I kind of collect language texts since my time living in Korea so I'll probably add Tobira to my Genki collection. Thanks for taking the time to go over this stuff.
10:19 I'm not really so much concerned with whether it's better. Equivalent is fine. But if I were to finish Genki and then pick up Tobira only to discover that it's almost identical even to where the pictures and exercises were almost identical I would get mad. Like I got tricked into buying the same textbook. I'd get it if I were just starting so it's probably better for people who are beginners who don't have any books yet.
I've had this book for two months, and what really makes this better than Genki for me is the readings. I agree and was pretty disappointed by the fact that the first Tobira Beginning book doesn't give much hope for bridging that gap to Tobira Intermediate. The later lessons of this book get more dense (almost as if they remembered that they are trying to cover a certain amount of material to get to Tobira Intermediate by the end of Tobira Beginning II) so I kind of forsee Tobira Beginning II being a doozy. I was surprised by how little kanji showed up. This book also does nothing to get learners used to the format that they use in Tobira Intermediate, with all their abbreviations and such. It's like they made a book to be like Genki and not a book to get pure beginners to Tobira Intermediate. With classroom learners in mind, this makes a lot of sense, but maybe they should have considered making this a three textbook series in that case. I'm still interested in Tobira Beginning II and I still think this is a cool and visually appealing textbook. I'd like to see Tobira Beginning II lean more into readings, since even if it dumps more grammar, vocab, and kanji on learners, the actual hurdle when people get to Tobira Intermediate seems to be READING. Maybe the workbooks which come out next July will more readings in them. Surprised you had nothing to say about the visual novel they made for the book! Anyway great review!
Agreed on all counts. I didn't see the visual novel until after I released the review. Too well hidden. I thought they were just linking to that as a recommendation though. Did they actually make it?
@@ToKiniAndy Now that you mention it, they do only bring it up once or twice in passing. The VN is apparently a collaborative effort between one of the authors of the book, Yuta Mori, and two University of Michigan alumni. It's only like four chapters long so I guess it's mostly a passion project.
I’ve always wanted to learn Japanese and i was looking for books for beginners for self study. Actually ,I was expecting books like the ones that I used to have in Spanish,English and lately in Italian.(I mean textbook,workbook etc) I might have guessed that would be a different approach in the learning structure in JapaneseI books because it’s not a European language. I was looking for the best book for me,so I chose Genki 1,but……… it didn’t work for me . So I’m thinking about giving Tobira’s a chance. Love ❤️ 🇯🇵 Japan and Japanese Language.
Thank you for this video. I just bought the Tobira textbook. I was going to buy it off your Amazon Japanese link, but I noticed that the book was more expensive buying it there than from the US Amazon website. So I bought it from the US Amazon website - - and forgot to use your link! I would love to make a donation to you in thanks for the recommendation. I can’t see anywhere on your TH-cam channel or your website where I can make a donation. Please let me know how I can do that! I look forward to watching more of your videos.
I think i will stick with you and Genki. Genki has book listening parts. They included CDs before the apps came into being. They synch up with the sideways wifi on vocabulary pages and dialogue pages
This was so helpful! I love how fair and in-depth you are. Have you taken a look at Nakama yet? I used it for first year at my previous university, and it doesn't line up well with Genki II lol. But I liked all the example questions, etc. Curious to know what you think!
Honestly, I think the most important thing to figure out (assuming one is learning Japanese by themself) is, as you mentioned, "which book is currently the most used". Because self-learning is not only about reading a grammar book, but also about finding contents related to the said book. No matter how similar, げんき and とびら will differ, at some point, in their approach of some grammar points, and it may be unnecessarily confusing (especially for a beginner struggling with the basics) to be taught both approaches at the same time. Also, although I think learning pitch accents is important (to an extent), I do not think it should be introduced that early in the learning process. One may argue that it will prevent the reader from forging bad prononciation habits, but I personally think that it mostly add yet another layer of complexity on top of all the new concepts they have to learn. Beside, if the reader's not used to hearing Japanese, then pitch accents will be a fairly abstract thing. I think learning pitch accents starts to make sense once one starts being somewhat confortable with Japanese (not necessarily fluent, but if you're having a stroke every two words then there may be some basic concepts you should focus on more urgently). At a beginner level, I think that sticking to shadowing exercices ought to be enough and actually more effective. My personal recommandations to begin study Japanese (from my own experience) would be to either use: - げんき (Genki) + toKini Andy's channel - みんなの日本語 (Minna no nihongo) + nihongoal's channel (who just recently finished the 50 beginner chapters) Although, if you're 100% self-taught I personally find げんき (Genki) far more accessible. If you can afford it, I'd also recommend having a private teacher (preferably native). Good luck to anyone learning Japanese.
Tae Kim's guide to Japanese grammar is pretty comprehensive. Covers almost every aspect of Japanese grammar. Kakuko Shoji's books are also worth a look. Her book on Japanese particles is definitely worth a look.
I've had my eye on that set for a while (I already have Genki and Tobira, but I like to take many and varied approaches to learning anything). What are some of the benefits of that series as you see them? I couldn't find much on them when I looked.
Having the words by the pictures helps to internalize the meaning of the word. The pitch part is for using the word effectively. They are two different functions and are correctly separate.
Hi Andy, Thank you so much for this video. It was very informative. I wound up purchasing the textbook since you mentioned it covers pitch accent in the vocabulary section. Below is a message I sent to the publisher of Tobira1. As I await a response, I was wondering whether noted the same thing I did. (Please see below.) If so, would you be able to comment my observation? Thank you. There is also a textbook from way back called Japanese For Everyone by Susumu Nagara (originally published in 1990), The author deals with pitch accent in the vocabulary section, and the distinction by markings are made so that learners can indeed know which of the 4 types a word belongs to. Many thanks, Josef Hello, I am overall very pleased with Tobira 1 and happy that pitch accent has been included. However, when the pitch accent is provided for words that end on a raised pitch, one does not readily know whether a following particle (に, が, を, etc.) will remain with a high pitch or be pronounced with a falling pitch. Therefore, I am asking you to explain to me how these two distinctions are, if at all, indicated in the book in the vocabulary section. The online module 4 on pronunciation gives a contrast example between flower 花 and nose 鼻、both pronounced exactly the same ending with a rising pitch. But when the particle が follows, with flower, it has a falling pitch, and with nose, it remains high. I look forward to hearing from you about this. Thank you. Best regards, Josef
I haven't much. George already does such great content on them, that I never really considered it. I do get a lot of requests to do so though, so perhaps a review is in order one of these days.
Looks like a great book, but it's too damn expensive if i want purchase it from India. The average price of a book here is probably Rs 500. Occasionally a REALLY good book with great print and hard-bound cover can go up to Rs 3000 or even 5000. But this book is being priced over Rs 11,000 in amazon india and no one has purchased it. That's too bad, because there are plenty of learners here in India.
@@ToKiniAndy It seems India is among the countries eligible for international shipping. However, I can't seem to login my prime account with Amazon Japan. The pricing looks a lot better there, I'll find a way in. Thanks for pointing me that way. Subscribed!
*sigh* Andy I am stuck because I actually own this textbook and NO ONE makes videos of it (besides the online videos that the book provides on the website of course) PLEASE PLEASE when are you going to do this book for us learners who have this instead of genki?!
No one else is really doing pitch accent? What about the Nakama and Marugoto books?? They’ve been doing pitch accent stuff with their phrases and vocabulary for years now well before Tobira’s beginner textbook. 😕
I’m learning from two Korean books written by a Japanese author in Korea. They are grammar books. I should check this out. Two 60 chapter books of only grammar is too much.
I've been trying to find good workbooks at my library so I don't have to purchase one and this, tbh great to wean out genki books edit: he said to leave a 🍌 in the chat
I still think Nakama is the best textbook system of you want to learn grammar quickly, easily, and accurately so that you are speaking without making grammatical errors that a native wouldn't make. Ramping up study of the writing system ASAP is also a must for any serious student and you'd be a full to try to avoid it. Nakama uses modified Hepburn which can be quickly and easily transcribed to kana but in the end you must learn kana and at least 300 kanji. Kanji absolutely do suck because aside from a few intuitive pictographs they are most phono semantic characters--in Chinese-- which can only be brute force memorized for Japanese. This is also why Japan struggles with literacy despite spelling reform and steering educational programs.
I always see people talking about the best books n stuff but then proceed to say that they are for intermediates already. Can anyone here recommend a good book for complete beginners? Or is tobira the book of choice?
@@ToKiniAndy ohh ok... I Just started my N3 and I feel I'm lagging behind and as if I am unable to understand. My Sensei is following Soumatome, Mimi Kara Oboeru. I feel quite lost. Wondering if there are any books that can supplement or go as a side reading/reference. Like Minna no Nihongo and Genki.
@@INDELFranju I started with so-matome for my self-teaching and use genki in college classes. I would say genki is better if you need explanation in English. But you learn more/faster with the so-matome in terms of grammar points and kanji, and I like the weekly lesson set up (which I use for daily lessons instead. The biggest thing is that the so-matome are specifically for teaching you how to pass the JLPT and Genki is more focused on actual understanding and conversation. (Most people who pass even N1, can’t speak Japanese basically at all because that’s not a focus of the test) If you do a lot of shadowing with the audio files then you might be able to avoid that. But like you said, you have a tutor, so that would combat the non-speaking as well. Using genki, I still have to go through Andy AND all of my other books to really understand the grammar, and I also signed up for a specific grammar course on udemy as well. I have to go to all of my other sources in order to remember enough of how it works to do my assignments for Genki. I don’t think it’s explained well in genki, which is why I give Andy and Yuki my money 😂 and so-matome just tells you where to put it, but not WHY or what it does. (Basically memorize the structure - which is how it would work in total immersion but not super helpful outside of japan unless you’re really stuck) they’re basically reference books for me in addition to my class textbooks, if that makes sense? And I like workbooks so I’m still happy I have them. But no you can’t use them alone really except just to memorize and pass JLPT. I want to be able to speak though.
Same too, especially when tobira beginning books are crammed with information presented in small fonts and there is hardly any blank space to jot down notes.
Genki is rubbish, and only slightly better than Japanese for Busy People. The textbooks that helped me the most were Trombley’s, then later on Misa’s online lessons.
Ok so I have a pdf of genki and I have watched your videos with it for a few chapters. And then I stopped. I'm self sturdy and I just could not get in to the book. Now looking at tobira I'm already attracted to it simply for the color pages. Kanji IN the lesson? That's helpful as I did not know there was kanji in genki.... At all. Thank you for this review. 🍌 and a 🍪 for me, I like cookies.
I actually think its appropriate to mention your Genki vids and here's why. In 2021, I don't think its fair, or even appropriate, to expect a book to be a do-it-all for learning a language. Maybe back before the availability of online resources. But it wasn't good then, just it-was-what-it-was. Most of these Tobira improvements we already have access to, just through other means. I can put actual photos in my Anki decks and clip in sound files. As you mention, neither are great for kanji. And for that, there's other, better resources. And, then there's the ecosystem of conversational practice/listening aids/immersion stuff, online access to Japanese new and television, didactic vids like your own...the ecosystem is disjointed but extremely large and in most cases, far more developed than a closed system could accomplish. A book can't compete with that. It can be part of that. But, that gets back to you mentioning your vids. Can the book be better than Genki, in the current ecosystem? Maybe. But, probably, as you say, not enough to make it worth jumping ship.
Honestly, and this is something to all language teachers, not just those of Japanese (although Japan is perplexing and frustrating, given its a modern post-development nation). Stop writing books as though its 1994 and this is the only available source. I have the same problem with my Turkish language books. If you are targeting a western audience (which is a given, if your text is providing into lessons in [insert western language]), write your books with the intent of bridging lessons to available online ecosystem of resources. Tell the new learner which you had in mind and give suggestions for further study. Help them into the ecosystem. You will not accomplish with a book what other types of media can accomplish. Different tools, different jobs. This is the very thing I do when I teach biology.
I feel like this comment deserves to be pinned.
I'd say Japanese from Zero does a good job with this
@@Pelipear Japanese from zero is great but it really does take it REALLY slow lol
I see your thesis and I tend to agree, but only to a point.
I'm a long-time learner of European languages but a beginner in Japanese. And the wealth of materials is simply overwhelming, despite Japanese not being the most studied of languages.
I found myself wishing for a single "package", at least for beginner/preintermediate level.
Approaching a language is already challenging enough, especially if you self-study. Having to sift through dozens of apps, web-pages, resources of any kind is flooring me.
What I really wish existed is a textbook with a couple of disks of audio/video materials/exercises and a functioning app which replicates the same materials and adds some kana/kanji practice and perhaps a vocabulary deck.
@cjohnson how would you go about starting out if I may ask?
I’ve got Genki, and now I’ve got Tobira. And I’ve got their shiny new workbook on order.
Tobira is exponentially better for a beginner. Even without the workbook, the website has lots of extra material. The book itself is gentle and friendly. I like the way it starts out by asking questions like, do you have similar phrases in your language? Or do you make similar distinctions between formal and casual situations in your language?
It’s all extremely friendly and gentle, and I like that. I’ve seen some really clinical sounding textbooks where they throw weird English words like “copula” at people. They leave you wondering if you’re even a native English speaker because you don’t even recognize the English words they’re using.
YES! Small font! I don't know why but i love it. I just shows they don't want to waste any space and they want to give you as much for what you paid for as possible
Also the pitch accent is what had me. I've been trying to figure out a way to learn that for awhile now. That would be great
Yes, it is a significantly better textbook: better grammar explanations with more examples, more natural dialogues, extensive amount of exercises, overall better content layout, a lot more drawings/pictures to convey vocabulary definitions and other ideas, all color pages in arguably better paper quality. Let's not oversee the fact that the web content for Tobira is included with the book purchase and the Genki apps you mentioned are $5.99 each, which for some reason you had avoided stating. Source: I own both book series and have purchased all the Genki apps.
Since when did they start charging for the Genki apps???
Edit: wow, I just checked, and you are correct.
Except, I'm mainly talking about Otonavi in this video (all the audio content) which is free. The (now) paid apps are flashcards and stuff, which I don't really think are necessary anyway.
@ToKini Andy so I had to pay even more, like around 20.00 for one of the Genki apps at a higher price for either android or IOS(more for one than the other)... forgot which as I use both....anyways...
So the head of the Japanese Language department of the school district of where we both live(she happens to be a friend of my wife and our landlord too) informed me that the district has discontinued using Genki and switch last year to a new text that I was unfamiliar with, because "the font is too small and the students can't read it well and complain about it"... this has also been a shared major complaint of mine with Genki, as I cannot read the kanji prints either and believe this to be a major contributing factor of not being "integrated" with having learned any kanji with Genki, as I just skip over it chapter after chapter since I cannot see it unless I have a magnifying glass near by. I would have gladly paid more for a bigger textbook.
Btw... this is not a small school district either, as it is a large suburb of Portland Oregon .
I also believe that the poor American diets are a major contributor to poor vision, as high sugar intake alters vision, and too much misc screen time too perhaps?
ALSO, I cant remember the name of the にほんごの教科書 that the district switched to, but can ask if you'd like, maybe it's this one in your video??
Just wanted to clarify for anyone reading madmax's comment: While high blood sugar levels can be a risk factor for certain eye conditions like cataracts, diabetic retinopathy, age-related macular degeneration and glaucoma, most common vision issues (hyperopia, myopia, astigmatism...) exist simply due to the shape of a person's eyeball. Farsightedness, for example, which makes it difficult for people to read, is often already present at birth.
I like the separate-style word lists without pictures as they allow you to cover-and-test various words to guess meaning and reading. I’ve found it to be highly effective in cramming vocabulary into short-term memory. With a picture format it’s harder to test yourself, although very nice for initial exposure.
Yeah, I think I'm fine with Genki and Quartet. I'm glad you mentioned Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course book. Not many people mention it from what I've seen.
My copy of Genki: Arrives literally TODAY.
Andy: "Did you just made a huge mistake? let's find out"
EDIT: people, please, it's a joke. I know Genki is a great book, but it just so happened that I finally decided to buy it and literally the day I was receiving it, Andy uploaded this video, and I just found the situation to be quite funny, that's it.
Are you me? Because mine arrives today aswell lmao
js libgen is your friend
Nah don't worry. Genki might have some 'flaws' its obvious because no textbook is perfect but for a beginner its definitely one of the best picks and beginner friendly. Don't worry about other textbooks. I would advise that you stick to the available resources and after you benefit from all of them, you can move on with something different.
@@fluxx9458 oh, for sure. I just found it very funny that when I finally decided to go ahead and purchase genki, because everybody was talking about it and there's so much great content out there using genki as a reference, literally the day the book was being delivered to me, Andy posts a video checking out another book lol. but yeah, I'm having a great time with it and it is a great book regardless.
i've heard quite a few people say ok i just finished genki, time to start tobira. is this a new tobira?
Literally did not know that there were kanji pages at the back of Genki... just learned something new. I think it's smarter to have it in the chapters personally.
I am an online Japanese teacher. I am using Genki, but, I also used Tobira for intermediate because of my students request. I feel the reading section level of Tobira is JLPT N1 ＆2. So, actually, its not for intermediate students, especially you are self-studying. I feel Japanese From Zero is an innovative textbook that we Japanese really should respect. I use that series for 1 year for my online lesson, but I realized there arent enough practice. also, the author sometimes make mistakes in capturing our grammar and good way of speaking. I think since Japanese is very diffrent language to Eurpoeans the learners need to use multiple materials including on-line lesson. In fact, we Japanese study English for 8years intensively at schools using textbooks, but most Japanese people cant speak English. Even, they cant write English sentences.
Sorry, but you clarify please - "The reading section level of Tobira is JLPT N1 and N2"? - I ask because I finished (and revised quite a substantial amount over the years) Tobira (the intermediate to advanced Japanese book) and I think that it is at most reaching N2 level but feels mostly around N3, as the book I am currently using; "New Authentic Japanese; Progressing from Intermediate to Advanced) is more advanced and I believe it to be around N2-N1 level. Thanks
I would love to see some reading material for those who are just learning Japanese that slowly introduces the Kanji with lots of repetition for those of us who are slow learners. Kind of like the sight word books we have for our 1st graders in America. Thank you very much.
I never found there to be a gap between Genki 2 and Tobira Intermediate. If you do the reading sections of Genki 2, it preps you well enough that you can go into Tobira with no problem. Unfortunately I feel like everyone just stops after the grammar stuff is finished.
I was watching the review when my 8 years son came by and said wow!! I thought he liked the book and the coloured pictures but he said this guy has a Nintendo switch 😁
To each his priorities I guess 😅
Thanks for the review. Looks interesting but I am past beginner's level now so I stick with Quartet for the moment.
Your son is a man of culture I see.
I'm a beginner and since everyone raves about the intermediate tobira book, I was very excited when the beginning tobira book came out and purchased it right away. After skipping through the pages multiple times I have decided not to use it and go with a different beginner book. You mentioned the font being very small, and that's my biggest issue. I have poor eyesight and even with my glasses on I have a hard time focussing on all the letters because it's just so small. Because the font is so small, more content fits on a page, making my eyes feel overwhelmed with all the information on a single page.
I agree 100%. It's why I never used the intermediate book, and it's one of the main things I dislike about this book. I think they really dropped the ball leaving out those with poor eyesight on this one.
I have fairly good eyesight but with Kanji and being a beginner, having the font be small with a new writing style is a huge deal breaker for everyone I think. This is something I think many of us take for granted with the language we are accustom to.
I wonder if getting Tobira as an ebook would be helpful then. I also have bad eyesight, but it's to the point where even with glasses I still need large print font to read comfortably. So I have found that ebooks, or apps that support larger font sizes are the best way to go for most reading. I wonder if that might help those of us who are vision impaired with Tobira.
I used to have normal sight, but I am now middle-aged and the normal sight loss is creating some problems with small fonts. And this is a widespread problem with Japanese textbooks, unfortunately.
Only if you had seen our STEM books lol
First of all, it is always good to have options. As a person who can purchase multiple books, good things that every text book is different. So here is my opinion:
1. When you study Japanese or on many studing books reviewers do not mention that Genki series have other books to complement. Like, yes, there is a text book, but genki also have an app for vocabulary and kanji, and additional book named Kanji Look and Learn as textbook and workbook. Genki 1 is about JLPT 5 level and with Genki 2 is about JLPT 4, series also have answer key book and CD with Audio. From my point of view as a person close to 40 y.o, Genki is book made for students of college/university and most topics are more around that.
2. Another good book is Minna no Nihon Go, but that one have 9 books in each series and if you really serious about it you better get all 9. This one is better for business people like me, topics are more broad, its about office work, and travel and visits and meetings - so those are better suited for 25+ age people. Definitely, grammar is way better explained in Genki, but I can assure that I use both at the same time and learning from both sources serves me well. About JLPT5/4 is similar to Genki, 1 for JLPT 5, and 2 is for JLPT4.
3. Now about Tobira. Is this only Textbook? No CD? What is approximate JLPT Lvl?IS there a texbook? Additional apps? what is the content evolving around? Student life? Work life? According to what I've heard in this review, they do not compete, they may complete each other, but Genki and even Minna are much broader resource.
I'll definitely try and all sources are good for me, but I disagree that those compete.
Cool!! Didn't even know that they were doing a book for beginners! Really, really enjoyed their Intermediate book a few years ago so I'm probably going to pick this one up for reviewing some old stuff ^^ Mostly because I'm sick of going back to Genki, and while the two seemed to have pretty similar content, I do love that Tobira had so much color in it from what you showed us :D
This looks like a neat book but, I’m still more interested in finding something that will support solo learning better thank Genki. Genki is the old favorite but a lot of us are not learning in a classroom and so all the pair work is very meh. I do love your videos to help with that. So thanks.
I recommend getting Tango anki decks for solo learning. You will need to purchase the books to prove purchase, but once you have those of us who use the Tango resource anki decks will be happy to share it (no exceptions about having legitimate proof of purchase).
@@scotmcpherson lolz. I was thinking hmmmmm. I have the Tango deck but never purchased the book. I didn't even know you were supposed to have one lolz
@@sukiiriinaa that begs the question, how and where did you get it? Those of us that have it (that I personally know) have been very careful to respect copyright and assure the creators and publishers of the content get paid for their work.
@@scotmcpherson just to be sure I'm speaking about the right deck mines says. JLPT Tango N5
@@sukiiriinaa yeah so I just checked and yeah there are several pirated versions of our deck being shared illegally. Looks like this started sometime last year. It's called piracy.
I picked up Tobira 1 and 2 at Kinokuniya in Osaka and I think they are much better than Genki. One thing I really like is the the Kanji is introducted in the lesson and you do not have to go back and forth in the book like you do with Genki. I studied Japanese in university and picked up Genki and Tobira to compare them, and I thing both would have been great to use in class. Tobira has a lot of improvements over Genki. Tobira is more teaches more up to date Japanese, Genki seems to be old fashioned Japanese. I gave them to my friend who wants to self study Japanese and she told me she likes Tobira over Genki as Tobira seems more up to date Japanese and easier to understand.
Ill add one more book for kanji
"Learning kanji through stories 1-300/301-500" this book is very good if you want to remember kanji meaning
When I was a university student in Japanese classes, we used Genki (at one uni) and Tobira (at the university I transferred to) and Tobira was a lot more comprehensive. My professor didn’t just use that, though. He had us learn shadowing, made his own lessons and quizzes, etc. and Tobira was mostly just one resource. And that was back in 2010/11 and I didn’t know there was a website component. It’s cool looking back seeing you flip through it! Very 懐かしい 😂
Soo... I learned something interesting today about "Tobira" I was researching continuing my formal Japanese Language path after I complete my current 2 year cycle of Elementary Japanese using Genki at University (the one I am attending only goes as high as Genki II)... Went to look at U of M, since I am in Michigan and it is close to me... They are the 'authors' of Tobira and looks like they are only using those textbooks to teach Japanese..... Interesting... Just a funny thing to pass along to you. So, most likely I will invest in the "Quartet" books after I finish Genki II and continue on my own with the aid of your videos! Love the channel!
They are only using Tobira to teach? Or they are using Genki to teach despite writing Tobira?
@@ToKiniAndy only using tobira..
I’m glad the font is the first thing you talked about. As a beginner, all that text crammed in a page seems overwhelming
I love that is has color. I hope the intermediate book gets an update soon.
Cool video. I'm glad you spotlighted another book. I'm on Genki 2 and my experience with Genki 1 and 2 has been overall positive. Learning another language for me has always been a struggle. Genki isn't perfect, but I'm really impressed, and comfortable with the presentation the book has. Just seeing you flip through Tobira and noticing the small font is would have been enough for me as a beginner to lose confidence on the first day of using the book. Genki obviously has flaws, but I find that using those books in addition to other resources like your videos, some other TH-cam videos, teaching apps, etc. helps compensate for the drawbacks Genki has.
I couldn't get into Genki but Tobira is very helpful. I like the structure of Tobira.
curse my affections for fresh textbooks, im going trough another series which is working very well for me but ill also be going trough the original tobira grammar book as well. knowing that tobira will have a whole series makes me wanna restart so i can go trough a single series for my grammar
I think once Tobira 2 comes out it may take over the market. Having a single series that takes you farther than Genki is a big plus.
Perhaps. Although Genki has Quartet for continuation which basically covers the same material as Tobira Intermediate. So it will depend on whether that gets popular before Tobira Beginner or not.
And whether western universities change. That's a big part of why Genki has dominated.
Interesting. I'm working through Genki and plan to do Tobira afterwards. It seems the main issue of the jumps is the sheer length of the texts and it seems like these Tobira beginner books have longer texts. So maybe this will act as a better bridge? Saying that, it doesn't seem like a major improvement and Tobira 2 isn't coming out for a while so I think it's pointless to seriously consider until Tobira 2 is out, by which point most people studying now will probably be past the point of needing that text book
I had to purchase Genki for my class. Honestly I didn't like the book from the very beginning. It doesn't seem to be well organized and the authors do a poor job introducing the vocabulary. They try to group new words but consistently miss something. They add many words that are not used in the lesson which is another issue. I accidentally found Tobira on Amazon and I am very happy that I did. Now I use Genki in the class and Tobira after the class. It is true that both book are greatly redundant but this actually helps in my situation. Tobira is much better organized and is created with learner's needs in mind. Tobira makes much more sense than Genki. It is much more convenient, pleasant and fun to work with. It looks like the authors of Tobira knew about Genki's flaws and did their best to fix them. Tobira workbook is being released this month and I can't wait to get it.
Yes, I bought both and I like Tobira better
Me watching you guys complaining about every small little thing in those many books available nowadays and remembering when I started learning in the early 2000 with the only textbook available at that time that had some Romaji "Minna no nihongo", almost no resources, no apps, no TH-cam channels, no google translator, no italki, just a poorly written pocket disho to help and a lot of courage to try to communicate with natives and learn from terrible mistakes, embarrassments and frustrations. You guys have EVERYTHING and should be beyond glad you have so much, just be glad whatever you buy nowadays will be thousands of light years ahead of what it was when I started studying.
It sounds like if I had Tobira and my friend had Genki we wouldn't notice we were talking about different text books when we discuss Japanese learning.
Tobira Beginning Japanese 2 is out now. Will there be a review as well?
I’m deciding on which one to get. As I’m very visual, colors and even a smaller, better arranged font can make all the difference. I’m not interested in taking any exams any time soon. Natural dialogue however is a very important factor. More dialogue, even better. I’ve been following half the genki 1 videos here and elsewhere without a book in front of me (I got some head-start with different material). So you can benefit from genki videos without it. I’m tipping more towards the tobira at the moment.
Tobira 2 is out so looking to hear your thoughts if it closes the "cap" with Intermediate and good route to re-start language learning.
Genki: Who are you?
Tobira: I am you, but stronger
I wish I'd found your channel earlier. I bought the So Matome N5, Try N5 and 1000 essential vocabulary for N5, as well as the official test books. I think I should have gone for either Tobira or Genki. Actually I think I should still get one of them on top the material I already bought ..... (The So Matome N5 kinda sucks and I think there is no way it can be used as a main textbook. The Try book is pretty good)
I'm going to crib your "only so much room for originality at the N5 level" and say that most of the lessons are going to be similar between the two books. They're aiming to accomplish the same thing with the same method, target material, and target outcome, so they're going to be similar. Typing is a cool feature if you're using a native keyboard, but most IMEs allow typing phonetically for Japanese. Would be much more useful for Korean, since I haven't seen a phonetic IME for it. I'm actually a fan of the vocabulary presentation (with pictures plus plain list) because I feel that seeing information in different formats can aid integration. I agree that it's redundant, but I kind of like it.
So, from your comparison, it's six one, half-dozen the other, depending on individual preference and learning style. Kudos for the solid, fair comparison. The 150 yen difference isn't enough to sway my personal choice here, and the extra polish on some points in Tobira might be a call to Genki to dust off a new edition with some of these features (like you say, Genki 2.5). My Japanese is sub-survival level, but I kind of collect language texts since my time living in Korea so I'll probably add Tobira to my Genki collection. Thanks for taking the time to go over this stuff.
10:19 I'm not really so much concerned with whether it's better. Equivalent is fine. But if I were to finish Genki and then pick up Tobira only to discover that it's almost identical even to where the pictures and exercises were almost identical I would get mad. Like I got tricked into buying the same textbook. I'd get it if I were just starting so it's probably better for people who are beginners who don't have any books yet.
I've had this book for two months, and what really makes this better than Genki for me is the readings. I agree and was pretty disappointed by the fact that the first Tobira Beginning book doesn't give much hope for bridging that gap to Tobira Intermediate. The later lessons of this book get more dense (almost as if they remembered that they are trying to cover a certain amount of material to get to Tobira Intermediate by the end of Tobira Beginning II) so I kind of forsee Tobira Beginning II being a doozy. I was surprised by how little kanji showed up. This book also does nothing to get learners used to the format that they use in Tobira Intermediate, with all their abbreviations and such. It's like they made a book to be like Genki and not a book to get pure beginners to Tobira Intermediate. With classroom learners in mind, this makes a lot of sense, but maybe they should have considered making this a three textbook series in that case. I'm still interested in Tobira Beginning II and I still think this is a cool and visually appealing textbook. I'd like to see Tobira Beginning II lean more into readings, since even if it dumps more grammar, vocab, and kanji on learners, the actual hurdle when people get to Tobira Intermediate seems to be READING. Maybe the workbooks which come out next July will more readings in them.
Surprised you had nothing to say about the visual novel they made for the book! Anyway great review!
Agreed on all counts.
I didn't see the visual novel until after I released the review. Too well hidden. I thought they were just linking to that as a recommendation though. Did they actually make it?
@@ToKiniAndy Now that you mention it, they do only bring it up once or twice in passing. The VN is apparently a collaborative effort between one of the authors of the book, Yuta Mori, and two University of Michigan alumni. It's only like four chapters long so I guess it's mostly a passion project.
I’ve always wanted to learn Japanese and i was looking for books for beginners for self study.
Actually ,I was expecting books like the ones that I used to have in Spanish,English and lately in Italian.(I mean textbook,workbook etc)
I might have guessed that would be a different approach in the learning structure in JapaneseI books because it’s not a European language.
I was looking for the best book for me,so I chose Genki 1,but……… it didn’t work for me .
So I’m thinking about giving Tobira’s a chance.
Love ❤️ 🇯🇵 Japan and Japanese Language.
Thank you for this video. I just bought the Tobira textbook. I was going to buy it off your Amazon Japanese link, but I noticed that the book was more expensive buying it there than from the US Amazon website. So I bought it from the US Amazon website - - and forgot to use your link! I would love to make a donation to you in thanks for the recommendation. I can’t see anywhere on your TH-cam channel or your website where I can make a donation. Please let me know how I can do that! I look forward to watching more of your videos.
I think i will stick with you and Genki. Genki has book listening parts. They included CDs before the apps came into being. They synch up with the sideways wifi on vocabulary pages and dialogue pages
I wonder... if I start learning Japanese with this now, will the second book be out by the time I'm done?
This was so helpful! I love how fair and in-depth you are. Have you taken a look at Nakama yet? I used it for first year at my previous university, and it doesn't line up well with Genki II lol. But I liked all the example questions, etc. Curious to know what you think!
Thanks! There are lots of books I need to take a look at. That's probably one of them. =)
Honestly, I think the most important thing to figure out (assuming one is learning Japanese by themself) is, as you mentioned, "which book is currently the most used".
Because self-learning is not only about reading a grammar book, but also about finding contents related to the said book. No matter how similar, げんき and とびら will differ, at some point, in their approach of some grammar points, and it may be unnecessarily confusing (especially for a beginner struggling with the basics) to be taught both approaches at the same time.
Also, although I think learning pitch accents is important (to an extent), I do not think it should be introduced that early in the learning process. One may argue that it will prevent the reader from forging bad prononciation habits, but I personally think that it mostly add yet another layer of complexity on top of all the new concepts they have to learn. Beside, if the reader's not used to hearing Japanese, then pitch accents will be a fairly abstract thing.
I think learning pitch accents starts to make sense once one starts being somewhat confortable with Japanese (not necessarily fluent, but if you're having a stroke every two words then there may be some basic concepts you should focus on more urgently). At a beginner level, I think that sticking to shadowing exercices ought to be enough and actually more effective.
My personal recommandations to begin study Japanese (from my own experience) would be to either use:
- げんき (Genki) + toKini Andy's channel
- みんなの日本語 (Minna no nihongo) + nihongoal's channel (who just recently finished the 50 beginner chapters)
Although, if you're 100% self-taught I personally find げんき (Genki) far more accessible.
If you can afford it, I'd also recommend having a private teacher (preferably native).
Good luck to anyone learning Japanese.
We all know Tae Kim's guide is the king of guides. 冠
Tae Kim's guide to Japanese grammar is pretty comprehensive. Covers almost every aspect of Japanese grammar. Kakuko Shoji's books are also worth a look. Her book on Japanese particles is definitely worth a look.
I've been using Marugoto for a long time and it's way better than Genki, in my opinion.
I've had my eye on that set for a while (I already have Genki and Tobira, but I like to take many and varied approaches to learning anything). What are some of the benefits of that series as you see them? I couldn't find much on them when I looked.
Having the words by the pictures helps to internalize the meaning of the word. The pitch part is for using the word effectively. They are two different functions and are correctly separate.
Hi Andy,
Thank you so much for this video. It was very informative. I wound up purchasing the textbook since you mentioned it covers pitch accent in the vocabulary section. Below is a message I sent to the publisher of Tobira1. As I await a response, I was wondering whether noted the same thing I did. (Please see below.) If so, would you be able to comment my observation? Thank you.
There is also a textbook from way back called Japanese For Everyone by Susumu Nagara (originally published in 1990), The author deals with pitch accent in the vocabulary section, and the distinction by markings are made so that learners can indeed know which of the 4 types a word belongs to.
Many thanks,
Josef
Hello,
I am overall very pleased with Tobira 1 and happy that pitch accent has been included. However, when the pitch accent is provided for words that end on a raised pitch, one does not readily know whether a following particle (に, が, を, etc.) will remain with a high pitch or be pronounced with a falling pitch. Therefore, I am asking you to explain to me how these two distinctions are, if at all, indicated in the book in the vocabulary section. The online module 4 on pronunciation gives a contrast example between flower 花 and nose 鼻、both pronounced exactly the same ending with a rising pitch. But when the particle が follows, with flower, it has a falling pitch, and with nose, it remains high.
I look forward to hearing from you about this. Thank you.
Best regards,
Josef
Kind of off topic but have you ever looked at the Japanese from zero books?
I haven't much. George already does such great content on them, that I never really considered it. I do get a lot of requests to do so though, so perhaps a review is in order one of these days.
Looks like a great book, but it's too damn expensive if i want purchase it from India.
The average price of a book here is probably Rs 500. Occasionally a REALLY good book with great print and hard-bound cover can go up to Rs 3000 or even 5000.
But this book is being priced over Rs 11,000 in amazon india and no one has purchased it.
That's too bad, because there are plenty of learners here in India.
Does Amazon Japan ship to India?
@@ToKiniAndy It seems India is among the countries eligible for international shipping. However, I can't seem to login my prime account with Amazon Japan. The pricing looks a lot better there, I'll find a way in. Thanks for pointing me that way. Subscribed!
Honestly thought Genki II prepared me really well for 上級へのとびら.
If I complete Genki 1 is it worth going through this book or is it more of the same?
If you’ve completed Genki 1 there is no reason to pick up this book that I can see.
@@ToKiniAndy Thanks Andy. I'm on Chapter 8 of Genki 1 now but afterwards I will just move on to Genki 2 then.
*sigh* Andy I am stuck because I actually own this textbook and NO ONE makes videos of it (besides the online videos that the book provides on the website of course) PLEASE PLEASE when are you going to do this book for us learners who have this instead of genki?!
Hi! Does this book contain english translations for the dialogs?
I’m considering which one to get. But I will probably go with Genki so I can follow along with your videos. 🍌
No one else is really doing pitch accent? What about the Nakama and Marugoto books?? They’ve been doing pitch accent stuff with their phrases and vocabulary for years now well before Tobira’s beginner textbook. 😕
can you make this a series where you look at different Japanese learning resources?
I just bought Genki 1 & workbook. I have been studying JFZ 1. About 200+ pages in atm. I wanted another book I could study 📚.
You should make a book Andy. Some of the explanations are so outdated and overly difficult in these books
I won’t lie, I have considered it.
please talk about "basic kanji book" volum 1 and 2 please! idk which kanji book i should buy.
What if you have the genki book do you return it or keep using them?
Just keep using them.
I have neither, but I'm gonna buy Tobira
I’m learning from two Korean books written by a Japanese author in Korea. They are grammar books. I should check this out. Two 60 chapter books of only grammar is too much.
I've been trying to find good workbooks at my library so I don't have to purchase one and this, tbh great to wean out genki books
edit: he said to leave a 🍌 in the chat
This book is available online
I still think Nakama is the best textbook system of you want to learn grammar quickly, easily, and accurately so that you are speaking without making grammatical errors that a native wouldn't make. Ramping up study of the writing system ASAP is also a must for any serious student and you'd be a full to try to avoid it. Nakama uses modified Hepburn which can be quickly and easily transcribed to kana but in the end you must learn kana and at least 300 kanji. Kanji absolutely do suck because aside from a few intuitive pictographs they are most phono semantic characters--in Chinese-- which can only be brute force memorized for Japanese. This is also why Japan struggles with literacy despite spelling reform and steering educational programs.
Improvements such as pitch, slightly better explanations, and pictures with vocabulary isn't enough to close the gaps. It's just another genki to me.
I always see people talking about the best books n stuff but then proceed to say that they are for intermediates already.
Can anyone here recommend a good book for complete beginners? Or is tobira the book of choice?
Lol you said "I bet your using it right now," me over here like he knows how does he know 🤣
;-)
バナナ
How different is the Soumatome, Mimi kara oboeru and quartat for N3. Do help me clear on that part
I don't know anything about the first two books you mentioned, unfortunately.
@@ToKiniAndy ohh ok... I Just started my N3 and I feel I'm lagging behind and as if I am unable to understand. My Sensei is following Soumatome, Mimi Kara Oboeru. I feel quite lost. Wondering if there are any books that can supplement or go as a side reading/reference. Like Minna no Nihongo and Genki.
@@INDELFranju I started with so-matome for my self-teaching and use genki in college classes. I would say genki is better if you need explanation in English. But you learn more/faster with the so-matome in terms of grammar points and kanji, and I like the weekly lesson set up (which I use for daily lessons instead.
The biggest thing is that the so-matome are specifically for teaching you how to pass the JLPT and Genki is more focused on actual understanding and conversation.
(Most people who pass even N1, can’t speak Japanese basically at all because that’s not a focus of the test)
If you do a lot of shadowing with the audio files then you might be able to avoid that. But like you said, you have a tutor, so that would combat the non-speaking as well.
Using genki, I still have to go through Andy AND all of my other books to really understand the grammar, and I also signed up for a specific grammar course on udemy as well. I have to go to all of my other sources in order to remember enough of how it works to do my assignments for Genki. I don’t think it’s explained well in genki, which is why I give Andy and Yuki my money 😂 and so-matome just tells you where to put it, but not WHY or what it does. (Basically memorize the structure - which is how it would work in total immersion but not super helpful outside of japan unless you’re really stuck) they’re basically reference books for me in addition to my class textbooks, if that makes sense?
And I like workbooks so I’m still happy I have them. But no you can’t use them alone really except just to memorize and pass JLPT. I want to be able to speak though.
I love you videos and i love your streamer keyboard and want to see more about it.
🍌
Does it have book 2 ?
2 years later... here is your banana :)
Interesting!
me trying to convince my self to just get the Genki: but there are pictures for the word's!
With my poor eyesight, i'd say the smaller text is enough to make genki imediately better.
Same too, especially when tobira beginning books are crammed with information presented in small fonts and there is hardly any blank space to jot down notes.
I have a friend who absolutely despises bananas but her name(Hannah) rhymes with them
Please make a review and comparison between RTK and Kodansha Kanji Learners Course 😁🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌 i gave you lot of bananas.
Genki online resorces are good.
Feel like some of the points for tobira being better are pointless, like the location of the kanji section and the images in grammar.
Bro it’s 75 dollars 😢
Why so expensive?
Someone is selling tok high in the USA. I recommend Japanese Amazon. They ship to the USA fast
🍌＜呼んだ？
呼んだ
banana in the chat haha
🍌
A true asian like me would never spend on stuff which he can get free heh
🍌🍌🍌
I'm giving you three because you asked nicely
That said, I'm considering Japanese For Busy People and Tuttle's Beginning Japanese.
Genki is rubbish, and only slightly better than Japanese for Busy People. The textbooks that helped me the most were Trombley’s, then later on Misa’s online lessons.
Banana
🍌🍌🍌🍌
banana
バナナ🍌
🍋🍌
Your japanese R's all sound like D's. Seems you should have worked that out by now.
lol someone is feisty.
🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌
🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌
Nah, the pitch accent, you can pick that up naturally by practicing with native speakers, I feel.
So basically a copy of Genki lol they should sue them for copyright
You shouldn't pronounce と as "toe"
Ok so I have a pdf of genki and I have watched your videos with it for a few chapters. And then I stopped. I'm self sturdy and I just could not get in to the book. Now looking at tobira I'm already attracted to it simply for the color pages. Kanji IN the lesson? That's helpful as I did not know there was kanji in genki.... At all. Thank you for this review. 🍌 and a 🍪 for me, I like cookies.
I, too, like cookies. =)
The color pages definitely are an attractive feature, and help it stand out from other books.
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