Very grateful for this conversation. It is nice to have a father and son discuss these issues, because Bart can empathize with his father's perspective so well and truly understand where he is coming from. Thank you for sharing this with the world!
It’s sad that Bart and Tony’s relationship is the exception and not the norm. Most of us non religious folks tend to be ostracized, stigmatized, condescended to, or downright disowned. It’s okay to doubt. It’s okay to let go of religious beliefs. If you’re like me, you’re not alone.
Tony around the 30 min mark talks about a transformed life being a miracle. In my opinion, it's not even close. Don't get me wrong, it's a great thing but I think human psychology can explain it. Combine this with the fact that there are transformed lives in almost all religions, it can't point to a particular religion being true.
I agree, also though.. at that point he talks of Teen Challenge a very awful organization in many peoples view.. not because they are able to get them off drugs, but the way the do it. (extremely coercive).. and the kind of Christians they are making.. (equally coercive often times) the difference is not just in methodology as Tony states , but in our definitions of "success." Both of them talk about their difference being their belief in the "Supernatural," where Tony cites certain "miraculous" occurrences. It seems Bart is just not choosing to see what he does as "supernatural" in continuing to do the work he's always done. I see him much more like the one who comes to God and says "Lord, Lord.. when did i do these things? " So the thing I feel Bart is confronting is the Logo/Brand name of Jesus and it's correspondent subculture.. which I don't think God is for either quite frankly. His Dad though affirming a deeper strata of practice and understanding within the the Christian tradition misses the point of 1 John.. that all who love are of God.. and the behavour marker set that is clear in 1 Co 14.. Bart, a good Muslim, or anybody who practices this is the one who is "believing," but yet Tony will stick to that an intellectual assent has to be made on something that is clearly a heart and will thing.
@@clintkempster2295 "Bart, a "good Muslim"....???! what? where on earth did you get that? Did we watch the same video? read the same book? This is cray cray stuff.
39:00 - If you're going to be a believer you have to be continuously indoctrinated. If Christianity were the absolute truth of the universe, then it would be obvious to people with or without continuous reinforcement and limiting of access to other information.
Yeah, I know that it might be difficult to accept, but a lot of people just realize they don't believe anymore. We are no longer convinced that the Bible's claims are true. It is what it is.
You are correct.. Because I certainly don't. Reflecting on my childhood and going to church, I never really did believe the Bible. Something about it never sat right with me as to how we based our morality on a book written by "men" 2000 years ago. Also God never seemed like someone worth worshiping out of love, rather out of fear.
@@carltoncoleman454 Hod isnt remotely that bad, I got tired of the God is evil andunworthy of us garbage. Is clear God is Loving in the actual Bible. And the Bibles books ar eolder than 2000 Years ago. I also hate theargument for another Reason. It asusmes "Old" means not True. Beign from 2000 Years Ago doesn't make it wrong.
It strikes me as ironic that Bart says “faith is a gift of God,” and then basically says God just hasn’t given me the gift to believe in God. Seems like there is still a seed of faith there, at least acknowledging His existence and work.
Great point at the end. Make sure to isolate young people and reinforce the belief within the bubble of church and don’t allow them to have access to information that would sway this belief. If Christianity were true, you wouldn’t need to constantly reinforce your belief by surrounding yourself with other believers who reassure each other that their beliefs are true. I wouldn’t have much confidence in scientists who gathered together every Sunday to join hands and sing songs about gravity. But seriously, for most of us who left the faith, it wasn’t due to lack of exposure to the teachings of Christianity. If anything, it was overexposure. “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.” -Isaac Asimov (I probably paraphrased)
Bart the historicity of the Resurrection of Christ.....is the bedrock of Christianity the evidence is abundant,its early testimony....even liberal scholars and some atheists like yourself will agree with the apostle Paul in 1st Corinthians 15 When Paul says (What I recieved...I passed unto you) can be dated 1 year after the resurrection.
Wow! Bart is more Christ-like than most Christians I know. What a blessing he is!! Tony, if you need to "constantly enforce" something.... whoa... it's not TRUTH! Sounds like the church needs to constantly brain-wash us to keep us faithful.
What you are describing store is the moral compass the god black box if you will that every society on this planet has ever had was a concept of a higher authority this is God it's not religion it's a relationship with the one true Living God
Bart Campolo is the result of a weak father in the home. The wife is nutty. Then the son goes super nutty, And Tony who I loved listening too but to allow his son and wife to drift from Gods word is abhorrent. Especially for a teacher. This is what’s ruined America!
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3
The difference between the elect and the non-elect. It's that simple. Bart summed it up, "I just don't have the gift of faith" All men know God exists they just suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Tony questions whether he had a hand in Barts walking away, the answer: Nope, it's all in God's hands.
6 ปีที่แล้ว +3
That may be the least intelligent argument I have ever heard. Calvinism is absurd, arbitrary and cruel beyond anything else. Fortunately, it is fiction. The bible god was created by goat herders less than 4,000 years, and copied from the high god of Zoroastrianism. And Jesus is a fictional godman who never existed. www.jesusneverexisted.com and www.evilbible.com show this clearly.
@ even if its' true Rusty that he was fiction, Jesus was a great and inspiring character in history... and if he wasn't real, it's a shame. He certainly was more Christian in the best way than most Christians. And if that good Jesus ever did return as the fanatic evangelists believe, I am sure he would reject what Christianity has become, a wretched form of its' best story.
But wait...are the unrighteous suppressing the truth or is it in God's hands? How are both of those statements true? Either human beings are actively suppressing or accepting or God is in control of our response to Christianity. It can't be both.
Very grateful for this conversation. It is nice to have a father and son discuss these issues, because Bart can empathize with his father's perspective so well and truly understand where he is coming from. Thank you for sharing this with the world!
Great interview here with Bart Campolo....itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/still-unbelievable/id1448210557?mt=2
This was so interesting. Great to see this difficult conversation embodied in 2 people bound by family ties. Both brave people. Thanks!
It’s sad that Bart and Tony’s relationship is the exception and not the norm. Most of us non religious folks tend to be ostracized, stigmatized, condescended to, or downright disowned. It’s okay to doubt. It’s okay to let go of religious beliefs. If you’re like me, you’re not alone.
Tony around the 30 min mark talks about a transformed life being a miracle. In my opinion, it's not even close. Don't get me wrong, it's a great thing but I think human psychology can explain it. Combine this with the fact that there are transformed lives in almost all religions, it can't point to a particular religion being true.
I agree, also though.. at that point he talks of Teen Challenge a very awful organization in many peoples view.. not because they are able to get them off drugs, but the way the do it. (extremely coercive).. and the kind of Christians they are making.. (equally coercive often times) the difference is not just in methodology as Tony states , but in our definitions of "success." Both of them talk about their difference being their belief in the "Supernatural," where Tony cites certain "miraculous" occurrences. It seems Bart is just not choosing to see what he does as "supernatural" in continuing to do the work he's always done. I see him much more like the one who comes to God and says "Lord, Lord.. when did i do these things? " So the thing I feel Bart is confronting is the Logo/Brand name of Jesus and it's correspondent subculture.. which I don't think God is for either quite frankly. His Dad though affirming a deeper strata of practice and understanding within the the Christian tradition misses the point of 1 John.. that all who love are of God.. and the behavour marker set that is clear in 1 Co 14.. Bart, a good Muslim, or anybody who practices this is the one who is "believing," but yet Tony will stick to that an intellectual assent has to be made on something that is clearly a heart and will thing.
Great new Bart Campol interview here.....itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/still-unbelievable/id1448210557?mt=2
@@clintkempster2295 "Bart, a "good Muslim"....???! what? where on earth did you get that? Did we watch the same video? read the same book? This is cray cray stuff.
Similar story to __Father and Son__ by Edmond Gosse. Great interview! Thanks.
39:00 - If you're going to be a believer you have to be continuously indoctrinated.
If Christianity were the absolute truth of the universe, then it would be obvious to people with or without continuous reinforcement and limiting of access to other information.
Yeah, I know that it might be difficult to accept, but a lot of people just realize they don't believe anymore. We are no longer convinced that the Bible's claims are true. It is what it is.
You are correct.. Because I certainly don't. Reflecting on my childhood and going to church, I never really did believe the Bible. Something about it never sat right with me as to how we based our morality on a book written by "men" 2000 years ago. Also God never seemed like someone worth worshiping out of love, rather out of fear.
Carlton Coleman it may have also been how it was taught. I've come down on the side of belief, but that has been in spite of how belief was taught.
@@carltoncoleman454 Hod isnt remotely that bad, I got tired of the God is evil andunworthy of us garbage. Is clear God is Loving in the actual Bible. And the Bibles books ar eolder than 2000 Years ago. I also hate theargument for another Reason. It asusmes "Old" means not True. Beign from 2000 Years Ago doesn't make it wrong.
@ Do modern day Atheists have to be so petty and Childish?
@@skwills1629 just trying to keep up with you.
You cannot convince me that the cake baking in the oven did not have a creator - my wife, and just appeared from nothing....just saying.
Pray for your Pastors and their families as the enemy goes after those spreading the gospel and the leaders. May God Keep them from deception.
It strikes me as ironic that Bart says “faith is a gift of God,” and then basically says God just hasn’t given me the gift to believe in God. Seems like there is still a seed of faith there, at least acknowledging His existence and work.
Great point at the end. Make sure to isolate young people and reinforce the belief within the bubble of church and don’t allow them to have access to information that would sway this belief. If Christianity were true, you wouldn’t need to constantly reinforce your belief by surrounding yourself with other believers who reassure each other that their beliefs are true. I wouldn’t have much confidence in scientists who gathered together every Sunday to join hands and sing songs about gravity. But seriously, for most of us who left the faith, it wasn’t due to lack of exposure to the teachings of Christianity. If anything, it was overexposure. “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”
-Isaac Asimov (I probably paraphrased)
Bart the historicity of the Resurrection of Christ.....is the bedrock of Christianity the evidence is abundant,its early testimony....even liberal scholars and some atheists like yourself will agree with the apostle Paul in 1st Corinthians 15 When Paul says (What I recieved...I passed unto you) can be dated 1 year after the resurrection.
Wow! Bart is more Christ-like than most Christians I know. What a blessing he is!!
Tony, if you need to "constantly enforce" something.... whoa... it's not TRUTH!
Sounds like the church needs to constantly brain-wash us to keep us faithful.
Thanks for being honest about pornography Bart.
Try reading TF Torrance and check out C.Baxter Kruger at www. perichoresis.org
He's awesome.
What you are describing store is the moral compass the god black box if you will that every society on this planet has ever had was a concept of a higher authority this is God it's not religion it's a relationship with the one true Living God
Exactly that's exactly what the word of God says he heart is incredibly evil and who can know it training you can't without God
Bart Campolo is the result of a weak father in the home. The wife is nutty. Then the son goes super nutty, And Tony who I loved listening too but to allow his son and wife to drift from Gods word is abhorrent. Especially for a teacher. This is what’s ruined America!
Somehow Tony has turned into Uncle Fester.
Ok...then check out Bart Campolo here....itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/still-unbelievable/id1448210557?mt=2
@ great rebuttal
He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3
The difference between the elect and the non-elect. It's that simple. Bart summed it up, "I just don't have the gift of faith" All men know God exists they just suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Tony questions whether he had a hand in Barts walking away, the answer: Nope, it's all in God's hands.
That may be the least intelligent argument I have ever heard. Calvinism is absurd, arbitrary and cruel beyond anything else. Fortunately, it is fiction. The bible god was created by goat herders less than 4,000 years, and copied from the high god of Zoroastrianism. And Jesus is a fictional godman who never existed. www.jesusneverexisted.com and www.evilbible.com show this clearly.
@ even if its' true Rusty that he was fiction, Jesus was a great and inspiring character in history... and if he wasn't real, it's a shame. He certainly was more Christian in the best way than most Christians. And if that good Jesus ever did return as the fanatic evangelists believe, I am sure he would reject what Christianity has become, a wretched form of its' best story.
But wait...are the unrighteous suppressing the truth or is it in God's hands? How are both of those statements true? Either human beings are actively suppressing or accepting or God is in control of our response to Christianity. It can't be both.
@ And this re-reply was intelligent, sensitive to the situation and helpful.. NOT