JAYCO JOURNEY OUTBACK - TOP 10 ISSUES
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- JAYCO JOURNEY OB - TOP 10 ISSUES THUS FAR, 6 MONTHS IN.
In this video I go through our Top 10 issues that we've encountered whilst owning our 2019 Jayco Journey Outback 22.68-1. Thanks for Watching!!
JAYCO SERVICE CENTRES:
All RV Ulladulla: www.google.com/maps/place/All...
Complete Canvas & Caravan Supplies Tasmania:
www.completecanvas.com.au
Mike Griggs Caravan Crash & Service Adelaide: www.caravancrashandservice.co...
Caravan Doctor Busselton:
thecaravandoctor.com.au
GAS HOT WATER RECALL:
www.productsafety.gov.au/reca...
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Thanks for the interesting comments. I am in NZ and have had no problems what so ever with my Outback 16.3 (single axle) 2018 but will check brakes and hot water now. Cheers, Tony
Tonymorony thanks for your comment and thanks for watching! 👍
thank you for the tip will be checking thing out before heading on the road thanks again and safe travels
Good work mate. I found all of your points enlightening and reasonable. If I spent 60-70k I wouldn't want those issues either. You've highlighted what I need to look for if we buy a Jayco. Keep on keeping on!
Agree with Jayco fixing issues. I have an outback Journey Pop Top. The shower door fell into the shower, got fixed. Window was leaking, also got fixed. Thanks for the video
Jayco junko
Thanks for the info, we are awaiting the delivery of our second van so we have the experience of the last one and the points that you shared as good preparation for our next van. Like you we found that Jayco Quality Control is pretty non existent but they do fix things without argument.
Jayco Canberra fixed everything we asked them to and also some things that needed doing that I hadn’t picked up on.
Tip for any Jayco owner though, carry a pack of slightly bigger screw, Jayco seem to like using screws that are too small..
Thanks for the information.
Been looking at one of these outback’s. Eye opening 😮
Not disputing your issues, we purchased our 2018 Silverline Outback in September 20 secondhand from Jayco in Geelong and so far so good. Maybe the original owners had issues sorted. Thanks though for the heads up on the breaks, I’m traveling Tassie atm and will check all breaks are functional before we go any further. Thanks for a great video, I hope you have the other problems sorted now.
Brilliant mate, cheers ey!!
Thank you for the feedback. I too boughed a caravan for the first time. the interior workmanship very sloppy.
Thanks very much for sharing. Appreciate your honesty. Peter
Peter Dawson thanks 😊
Many thanks for the insight Mate, very much appreciated
Bill Driver thanks 😊
I can see why you keep the Panadol in the bathroom close by. These issues would give me a head ache as well.
thanks 4 the heads up . i am looking to get a toy hauler . hope i do better with the build
I have a worknplay on order, due to collect end of April. Could you give me some advise as to what to be aware of when I collect the van.
Thanks for this, just got my deposit back .
We own a jayco outback..stirling..2013 model..we've owned it for 5 yrs..used it 4 times.probly a week each time..only one major problem..water leaks in thru the roof hatch..apparently the silicon that seals it breaks down after a few yrs..$3000 for total roof reseal..oh yea an the awning has perished an cracked..bit of a bummer for a $ 60000 van..water also leaks in thru the front window ..
I would have thought it being a new caravan that it would have to go through the testing station to get an MOT or in New Zealand it's a certificate of fitness or warrant of fitness (which certifies it as safe for the road & brakes would definitly be something that is checked. These tests are normally carried out every 6 months-12 months depending on age. I believe in australia they don't do this other than when the vehicle or caravan is sold. They also are required to have an up to date electrical certificate as well as a gas certificate. I think considering your confined living space these would be good checks to have done whether you have to or not. Apparently the A'Van 555-3 has a 1 piece roof & unique wall system with a lot of european appliances & accessories. I really like the Jayco Journey outback 16'. For me would be a toos up between that & the A'Van for touring Australia.
We built our own van from 1" x 1" 2mmm box section it was clad with 20 gauge aluminium sheeting. It was a two axle dog trailer which towed really smoothly. No sway. We fitted it with boat windows which were very good quality and very heavy.
The axles were very heavy and very strong which made it very stable at high speeds.
We took it into areas that normally people wouldn't go.
It was so strong.
We had it for decades and nothing ever broke simply because it was so strong.
We made our own cupboards out of 3/8th ply.
Not pretty but highly functional and durable.
We bought a normal full sized gas stove which was very high quality.
You couldn't break the bunk beds because they were so strong.
Nothing ever cracked simply because the rigidity of the frame was insanely over built.
There was very little or not much torsional flex in the chassis.
Even the door was super strong and durable.
It had a normal house lock which in those days was very high quality and durable.
We put down 3/4" in ply for the floor and quality lino which shrunk but never wore out.
Some discolouration yeah but again high quality.
My guess is you'd get 40~60 years out of it.
The problem these days is everything is so flimsy.
There is just no quality any more or most things these days just fall apart.
Most vans I've seen just don't have enough strength in the frame.
Maybe they don't have a frame.
We'd drive past trees and rip a huge branch off. 😅
Also it was high off the ground.
No issues traversing river crossings.
Every other van the water would pour in if you tried to cross a river.
It was crazy how tough and durable it was.
Anyway, sad to hear about your issues.
Double edge sword really. Overbuilt equals heavy. Give me lightweight any day
Good video. Washing machines are cheap but building them in like that is plain stupid. Your not the only person to have a leaking washing machine. The cheap catches are an issue on our van too. Heavy reliance is placed on silicones and sealants which fail or have a limited life. So I have been remasticing areas. Your hot water system failure issue is a critical safety concern. Thanks. The brakes are pure dealer negligence. It is a basic NSW rego safety check that the van should be jacked up with the wheels off the ground and the electric brakes should be tested. It is also in my opinion a basic owner responsibility to do the same at least annually and to check brake operation and to know what the van brakes should feel like when they work. Ie adjust the brake sensitivity in the tow vehicle and you must be able to feel the brakes operate as the caravan pulls back on the tow vehicle. Any one who tows a caravan should be basically competent to test and operate the articulated vehicle in a safe manner. If you don't understand then you as the driver should find out. There are too many smashed caravans on Australian roads because the caravan drivers are not competent to operate them.
Thanks for posting.
The RV Company in Ulladulla are really good :)
Mathew Pomery they certainly are hey! 👍
Just to let you know the HWS issue is not just limited to Jayco
You have convinced me that Jayco vans are rubbish. You aren’t the only ones that this has happened to. I hope you get another brand
Great video, but I tell you I'm rethinking whether I should buy a Jayco😔
I think that you’re being very generous with Jayco. Their build quality overall is very poor which leads to many of the issues you talked about. Many of the issues are basic design faults and should not have happened. I would rather pay more and get something that is going to last. I would give Jayco 6/10.
one might say your 6/10 is also too generous :)
We played a drinking game while watching your video. A shot every time you said basically... we are now very very very drunk.. lol.
Great info though. Shocking what some manufacturers think is acceptable. Thanks for creating. We just found your channel so will watch a lot more
Paul Paterson 🤣😂 soo funny!! Glad I can be part of your drinking game 🍻
@@venturingfour cheers!!
We did the same 😁
😂😂
When spending any amount of money, standard of workmanship should always be good standard
WOW!
I’m just here for the basically’s. Haha Good video though, what an eye opener!!
I can assure you I’m getting better at not saying basically 🤣😂🤣
Enough with the "basically"
Hey mate, I’d be informing jayco ASAP just in case there are other vans running around Australia (not likely cus of the Rona 😂) that are potentially dangerous. 🤷🏼♂️ just a thought. Love the honesty. We’ve just purchased a New Age van, shying away from Jayco because of the many bad reports heard.
love your vids. Especially the inverter setup. Going to look at doing something similar to mine. 👍🏽👍🏽👌
Thanks for your straight up approach :)
If you were to do it all over again, would you still buy the same Jayco caravan?? Or would you go with another brand/model?
Jon Heath yes we would, however, We’d be more thorough when collecting our van from Jayco and have all issues fixed prior to taking off around Australia. 👍
Need to say "basically" more often. Haha
All the cupboard doors coming off their hinges, we've had TWO back walls put on our van (one was an accident, second was bad workmanship). We also have issues with the door. We bought a second hand van back in 2012, that we kept till 2018 and had no issues with that one. Brand new Jayco Journey is just a nightmare, and we will keep it till it makes us money, then trade up...
Hi,
Don't know whether anyone can help or have had a similar problem. We have a 2019 Jayco Journey 22.68-2 we are the 2nd owner of this caravan and weren't told the 5 yr manufacturing warranty is not covered if you are the 2nd owner only the original owner is covered. We have an issue with our east/west bed and lounge slideout, the slideout comes in with no problem but going out is a big issue as we have to help it go out by pushing otherwise it stops half way. I have called Jayco head office and their suggestion is that we always put the bed up when putting in or out then put it down for travelling but thats to hard with our model because the club lounge (also on the slideout) goes fully into the kitchen cupboards which means we then cant get to the bed to put it down, Jaycos answer to this is to stop the retract of the slideout until we can fit down the gap to put the bed down, then bring it fully in, then again when we are extracting we stop it so we can put the bed up then continue to extract. Has anyone had a problem with their slideout please and if so can you tell us how you solved the issue.
Thanks Jocelyn
Thank you so much. The safety and workmanship issues you highlight (as do other Jayco owners in the comments) are very concerning. You mentioned you met many other caravan owners on your trip. If you were starting over again what other manufacturer models of caravans would you advise looking at ? Yes there is a value for money issue - but might it be worth spending an extra $20-40k on a different type/model - to get better workmanship? I plan to use my caravan, with my freinds/family to explore in areas where backcountry roads might not be the best - and i wouldn't want caravan to shake itself apart - much less possibly run into chassis or stabilizer or brake failures!
John Fountain thanks for your message 😊. There are soo many caravan brands out there but to be honest they all have issues, none are perfect. I can’t really recommend what brand of caravan to buy as it really does come down to personal preference. We would definitely buy a Jayco again but just be more thorough when collecting. Jayco have never refused fixing any of our issues and they have heaps of service agents around Australia. It’s definitely worth going to a caravan show to see what suits you and your needs. We love going off-road so would look at a more robust van with higher clearance and shorter body. 👍
Wow, were just started to look at caravans, 1st visit was a jayco yard, yesterday was my first close-up up one, my first impressions were that the cabinetry and build quality was very basic, Ikea like, and extremely weak build techniques. Thou layouts were nice..Being in the building industry, i can certainly identify build quality concerns. .. only my first impression, so i can't comment on reliability or long term obviously. But certainly concerning...
Thanks for the video. We purchased our 2017 jayco outback 19.61 near new still under warranty. Thanks for the tip on the water heater. We also had an issue with our tow secure and keeping the system powered up. The 240 volt charge unit was defective. Charging system from vehicle not up to keeping battery charged. Two batteries later we not have the system linked to our house batteries. Overall happywith our caravan . Have found it to be important to keep onto of maintenance as build quality is to a "budget". We have had a roof leaking issue which hopefully is now fixed. Bouncing the caravan on shingle corrugated roads shakes the caravan a fair bit. We have learnt that it appears the build quality is the same for all the 19.61 caravans so the outback has the heavier chassis but the van itself no t a heavier build hence the need to watch wetherproofness cabinetry etc if you are into wilderness places. Overall happy with value & performance
Thanks for you video. I would of handed the keys back asking for a refund
Pre Delivery checks by selling dealers are extremely poor, having purchased 6 new Jayco’s all had basic faults which dealer failed to check and test before delivery. Some as simple as connecting main pressure water to inlet to find water hose pops off fitting happened on 2 of the 6.
Ian Smith it’s such a shame the quality control is soo low. I watched a TH-cam vid showing the production line and how they are proud of their quality control section.......🤔
We had only 4 minor issues with the van which we bought brand new "17./ 2018 Journey Outback DX". (1) Aircon stopped working when it was on heat mode (Ground wire to the compressor unit came loose.)( Fixed). (2) Front window cracked in the corner(Window Replaced) (3) Mirror splash back in bathroom had a scuff mark (Splash back replaced). (4) L.C.D TV had 3 dead pixels (TV was replaced with a new model TV) We traveled so far with our JOD over 8000 km with out any other issues.. BTW our van came from Prestige Jayco in Geelong Victoria and we had great service from the dealer..
AusSonic that’s great to hear. We’ve had great service since having our van and all our faults have never been questioned. We will definitely get our big jobs completed once we finish our lap. 👍
Hey ive got a new jayco outback and had a lot of problems from the start & had a lot of problems with the warranty manager in Brisbane until i was forced to pull him into line ,, there for I will never buy another caravan from Jayco
Hello I am about to buy one and would like to know what happened at the end with your story please.
Thank you in advance 🙏
Look at my more recent videos and you’ll see what the final outcome was 👍
Click on random video
Ah... it's the "basically" guy. 😂
Haha!! You can’t escape that easy 🤦🏻♂️
We've recently purchased a new Journey Outback and I can totally related to your video and the comments below. Whilst we haven't had any show-stopper issues, the overall build quality is just rubbish - Especially the internal carpentry and fit out. I've replaced so many screws because the hole have stripped out; Lots of screws driven in at bizarre angles; trimmings poorly fitted or falling off.
I suspect a lot problems could be prevented if the factory workers at Jayco simply turned down the torque setting on the screwdrivers.
Swanny totally agree. There needs to be better quality control on all aspects of the van. 👍
Not sure if this could be a factor but apparently it's bad luck to have a peacock "eye" tail feather on display in your house. 🤷🏼 maybe take the peacock feather out and you'll have smooth sailing? 😂
dliteflmslauren 🤣 not sure if we’ve heard of this but thanks for the heads up 👍
Good video. After two years did Jayco fix your problems?
If you look at our TH-cam channel, you’ll see later on after finishing our lap of Australia, Jayco gave us a full refund.
The new owners contacted us and stated that most of the issues had been fixed prior to them purchasing the van. 👍
@@venturingfour That's great.
As I am led to believe, the caravan industry is unregulated and until such time is ever does, the caravan industry will always remain the pretty average.
Thank you so much 🤗what are the other issues
Sue Clemente thanks for watching! They were the main issues, all our other issues are very minor, joint strips coming off, silicon joints splitting, suspension creaking, melamine peeling, small cracks inside and out appearing etc.
Just an update on the hot water system. Thanks to this video we checked ours and it is on the recall list. We have not been contacted by Jayco so we contacted our local Jayco who said they were not recalling yet as there was no fix. They gave me the number for coast to coast, suburban hot water heaters who also said they had not been given approval to fix them yet but took my contact details for when they have. In the meantime I will not be using the gas to heat the hot water as I don't want to wake up dead!!!
Pomsinajourney thanks for the update. We will keep our 👂 pealed 👍
We have an Essential caravan and also with the recall HWS, the safety recall has been active for over 6 months now and still no sign of a fix. It's a disgrace as vans are technicall unfit for purpose.
The new Jaycos are now being fitted with a carbon monoxide detector. They work similar to a smoke detector. Not perfect but it'll do till they come up with a fix.
Its been a while but our hotwater system has now finally been recalled. Coast to coast have sent us an email and we are now booked in to get this checked out. I suggest people contact coast to coast Rv if you have not had an email.
Thanks just not good enough. Currently have a Jayco swift, it’s a Jayco enough said, was looking at another Jayco to upgrade to, not now. Your problems are all normal with Jayco because near enough is good enough for them. It’s a shame really. My next van is now the perfect van a zone RV 17 ft absolutely perfect.
Had a look at new Jaycos at Coffs Harbour ,came away gob smacked at the poor quality , I actually asked my wife totally seriously is that shower door made of cardboard,, then went up the road to Coffs coast caravans, titanium range , the other end of the quality scale.
That's why it's like a house you put foil over your bacon 🥓 😆 for number 8 or cut some stainless yourself and cover it
Thanks for the video, Just noticed you have put an Alko 4x4 50mm hitch on. What do you think of it? would you go a DO-35 if you had the chance to do it again?
CRDStudios 100% would go the DO35 over my AL-KO. The only reason why I didn’t get the DO35 in the first place was because Jayco Dealer wouldn’t allow it and informed me that it would void our warranty. I know that each Jayco Dealers are different so depends where you purchase from. 👍
What brand lock do you have on the AL-KO?
56boots, we currently have a Kovix KV88 Hitch Lock which works really well. I did do a video on our van security 👍
@@venturingfour What is the idea of these over a standard hitch provided on 90% of vans
@@christhomas4260 full articulation for off road purposes. Also if you unfortunately flip your caravan, the car has more chance of staying up right. Safer and a lot easier to use. Worth every penny in my book 👍
I've owned a Concept Belmont for 5 years and lived in it for 4.
I would have to disagree that all manufacturers have problems.
I've had problems, but not one with the build quality of the van, only with the crappy products, ie dometic etc out of China that manufacturers have to put in the vans to compete on price.
Had failures with 3 way fridge freezer, hot water systems (on my third) ceiling fans, water pressure valve, window blinds and so on.
But the build quality is fantastic for the price.
On the other hand my first van was a Jayco and the set of drawers between bunks broke away from runners on my first short 20 minute drive to a Tow-ed course, and within 6 months water had leaked inside side wall and under bed.
Sure, you can say ok for the price, but why put up with the frustration when just a little more would make a huge difference.
I agree with this comment where all manufacturers have these issues. Not true. Mass production van are rushed, not completed correctly and customers need to deal with all the S of returning, months of repairs and replacement. Jayco Is known for continuous issues here. You don’t get these problems with JB vans, lotus.
What was actually wrong with the brakes???.... was it a physical fault - or did they not adjust them ?
Rob Lackie I’m not sure 🤔. We were just told that only 1 brake was working out of all four and that the brake away control system wasn’t working either.
@@venturingfour If this was me, I would have asked for a written account from the repairer, were the wires damaged / breaks out of adjustment? In regards to the breakaway battery, it is generally charged from the car, is there an issue with the wiring? Im pretty sure Jayco supply a monitor to check the battery power on the breakaway system that is mandatory is some states. Before I drive off, I pull the pin out on the breakaway to confirm that it is working.
Did you not get a warning from your break controller in your tow vehicle to say there was an issue. you seem very trustworthy with these repairers. If work was done on my brakes, I would want to know exactly what the issue was and exactly how it was rectified. This evidence surely would have been needed for Jayco to access.
Haha “Basically”
I’ve basically lost count how many times he says basically!!!!!
What type of breaking system is on your van? Is it elect? Thanks
Hey Samantha! We had 12” drum brakes on the van that were operated by electric brakes from the tow vehicle. 👍
@@venturingfour As I said above, you should have had a warning from your break controller in the tow vehicle.
So, considering the faults you’ve experienced and being aware that nearly all manufacturers have faults, are you happy with the purchase? Would you buy a Jayco again or try another brand? I’m tossing up between Jayco and Sunseeker. Thanks for your easy to understand video.
Gavin Hartel we’d definitely buy a Jayco again so no concerns there. All caravans have their faults and no one is perfect. I guess it all comes down to your budget and what travel you intent to do. Another great thing about Jayco is that it has a large number of service agents around Australia. We wish you the very best of luck in choosing your van. Enjoy 😊
@@venturingfour IT seems to me they (jayco)need to have service departments all around Australia because they know their van's will fall apart. If they just had better quality control they could save themselves 100 ,s of 1000s of $
Hey Gav! Yes we were definitely happy with our purchase. Bang for buck you can’t really beat Jayco. Our friends have just purchased the exact same van but 2022 model and it seems as though they have stepped up their game on quality. I hope this helps make your decision 👍
@@venturingfour regent is better now considering their now outselling jayco
@@ViperRUSTzz That’s interesting to know. Thanks 😊
And yet Australians keep buying Jayco. They are cheaper to buy and that keeps bringing people back. Owners just pray “hope I didn’t buy a dud” As for me? I’ve been to caravan shows and seen Jaycos. I walked away thinking “not for me thanks”
I would not buy another Jayco again 12 months and it issue after issue after issue with it and they started from the day we got it home had it home 10 days and then it went back for 14 days and it still is going on now it's the slide out
Sorry to hear this guys. How can there be such differences from one Jayco to another. One comes out with zero issues and the other has nothing but problems. Jayco really need to get on top of their quality control.
They need to make a new door 10mm wider
If you want better luck, get rid of the peacock feathers from inside
Our is a 2022 basestation and it's a shitheap, the build quality is terrible and our brisbane predelivery is just as bad
that melamine is not actually melamine, its wallpaper.... Yep I couldn't believe it either.... MDF covered in wallpaper.
This wouldn’t surprise me to be honest 🤦🏻♂️ anything to keep the cost down.
So basically?
Yep no qaulity control,if you are not handy with tools dont buy a Jayco
You will have to pull every screw out and liquid nail them back in
redgatecrt redgatecrt that wouldn’t surprise me! 👍
Congrats guy’s on getting out in our beautiful big country! In previous Vans I’ve owned especially if you are going to live onboard for extended periods it’s “Worth getting underneath your Van” and protect exposed cables/hoses etc, also getting high quality sealant into every access point that comes into the interior!
As suggested Liquid Nails and spacers on areas where particle board has been used in construction! Consider replacing any fastener and circlip with best quality available! Enjoy your journey!🇦🇺🦘
How much did you spend on a Jayco??????
Sorry, missed this comment. We spend $73k on our van with the battery setup included.
@@venturingfour 73k for that heap of crap, im sorry the apathy of ppl is why they keep churning out this garbage. once we as a collective demand value for money, then these company's are just laughing at us.
yes I have brought a brand new Jayco silverline 24ft van I have many issues with this when I done a bit of research before Jayco say on their website on TH-cam that everything goes through quality control and nothing comes out of the factory how wrong is this this is false advertisement I had tablets hitting my skylight I had washing machine playing up I have covets that do not lock I have grey water tank always showing full and many other problems I took it down to Jayco for its first service and to get these things fixed they told me they have fix these problems how funny is this because everything is still the same they charged me $480 for what I would not recommend a Jayco to anyone there after sales service is absolutely shit you need to get something fixed you must wait 3 to 4 months this is a joke it's only a caravan it does not have an engine in it you go and book your car in for service you have it in within the next week or two it just goes to show Jayco loves to say you a fan but they do not love to support it quality of manufacturing I think the Australian government needs to UN regulate them and start to have a bit of control over how they manufacture their vans especially now since many people will start to buy vans instead of going overseas we have many caravans up and down the highway that are brand new four actually un roadworthy look around do not buy a Jayco by something else
I never noticed that you were saying 'basically' more than anyone else would.
So basically
How many times can you basically say basically???
Tell me about it!! 🤦🏻♂️🤣😂
Basically
Basically dribbling shit
Pretty average build quality and finish really. Jayco aren't cheap compared to the rest of the market either
Basically....
mate... having breaking problems are unacceptable... we ca not compromise the safety of our family members.... lets look at driving down hill, its raining, your fully laden and all of a sudden, you have to do an emergency braking... what happens next... Jayco should be held accountable for proving faulty products.... they have been in the business for so long, and still, the craftsmanship are below standard....disappointing,.. brand new caravan... Quality Assurance personnels must had a huge pay cut.
Who fries basically anything in a caravan.
You need to find another filler word other than "BASICALLY" and then your video would be basically 5 minutes shorter!
John Forrest 🤣😂 I sure do!!
You can't be serious John this is not a production video, it's basically a customer experience. Basically you should have better things to worry about.! LOL
56
Obviously they did not test it well. And it looks they only design and make caravan but never really test and use it.
fell a sleep before I got to issue 10
Disgraceful. Jayco should be ashamed of themselves.
You had to many beers and you upgraded rubbish for nothing 😆 and you just had a whing
Number 11: bank account leak
redgatecrt redgatecrt 🤣😂
lol check how jayco staples cabinets together. Jayco complete rubbish
redgatecrt redgatecrt 🤦🏻♂️
I tell everyone that will listen do not buy a Jayco caravan they are nothing but trouble.
You brought a junkco and paid how much ?. Stevie Wonder could see the quality. Nothing has changed in twenty years.Wake up Australia.
jayco are poorly made
Im seeing the first three of these as being whinging, rather than anything. The splashback issue must have been obvious, you've never cooked before? Maybe learn some basic blokey skills and sort it out for yourself.
🤦🏻♂️
Lordieshepherd, maybe learn some blokey manners or keep your mouth shut unless you have something constructive to say😀
Please stop saying BASICALLY 😱😱🤣🤣
kerrylaw100 I’m hoping they’ll be a lot less BASICALLY’S on my next vid 🤣😂🤣
kerrylaw100 your input is as valuable as a fart in the wind
We all know how much everyone loves a good fart in the wind 💨 🤣🤣🤣👍
Basically he will
God I hope you aint planning on staying in Oz and building a multi million dollar house. If you do, your complaint videos will never end............
Your basically correct...lol
Another whinging Pom.