Dr Stephen Porges: Polyvagal Theory Updates & Critiques (2023)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2023
- Dr. Stephen Porges addresses critiques of the Polyvagal Theory, new mixed states (fawn, appease, intimacy), and "stimulating the vagus nerve." He also discusses his new book, Our Polyvagal World, and his newest academic paper, the Vagal Paradox: a Polyvagal Solution.
🔶 Order Dr Porges’ NEW book - Our Polyvagal World - through this Amazon affiliate link. I get a portion of the sale at no extra cost to you - amzn.to/47UIxjV
🔶 Total Access Membership of trauma recovery courses and community - www.justinlmft.com/totalaccess
🔶 Free ebook, "Trauma & the Polyvagal Paradigm" when you sign up for my email list - www.justinlmft.com/books
🔶 Polyvagal Trauma Relief System - www.justinlmft.com/traumarelief
🔶 Polyvagal Trauma Relief System - www.justinlmft.com/traumarelief
🔶 The Vagal Paradox: a Polyvagal Solution - authors.elsevier.com/sd/artic...
National Suicide Prevention Hotline - 1 (800) 273-8255
National Domestic Violence Hotline -1 (800) 799-7233
LGBT Trevor Project Lifeline - 1 (866) 488-7386
National Sexual Assault Hotline - 1 (800) 656-4673
Crisis Text Line - Text “HOME” to 741741
Call 911 for emergency
This and other content produced by Justin Sunseri (“JustinLMFT”) (i.e; podcast, TH-cam, Instagram, etc.) is not therapy, not intended to be therapy or be a replacement for therapy. Nothing in this creates or indicates a therapeutic relationship. Please consult with your therapist or seek for one in your area if you are experiencing mental health symptoms. Nothing should be construed to be specific life advice; it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.
Justin Sunseri is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist registered in the State of California (99147).
#polyvagaltheory #stephenporges #traumarecovery - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
this man changed my life. thank you so so so much Dr. Porges!
This was a super interesting talk. Especially the link between vagus tone and EDS and cyclic vomitting.
The only thing that helps cyclic vomiting is hot showers, which would affect the vagus nerve. Also stopping cannabis, particularly cannabis that was treated with pest repellents containing Neem oil.
My interest in poly vagal theory is because I have depression. And often when my depression ends, I'd get super angry. So that sounds like moving up from shut-down into fight or flight. I've been finding your videos, useful, with helpful tips as well as being informative. Thank you 😊
What an amazing family! I bet your dinner conversations are phenomenal.
I am an ardent student of polyvagal theory. Happy to have found this recent interview with Dr. Porges. I'm only 16 minutes into the interview and enjoying the information and personable side of Dr. Porges. Interestingly, I find I can only listen to this interview for audible content because the host's mannerisms are too distracting.
I'm glad you found a way to benefit from the content. I also have a podcast (Stuck Not Broken) that is audio only. Enjoy!
I must disagree! I think that Justin's responses make a lot of sense. and I find it interesting to watch this interaction. Thanks so much for posting this content; this presents a different side of Dr. Porges than I am used to seeing.
Mannerisms?
YES, I was just looking thru the comments a little to see if anyone else had this adverse response to the host's body language. So many gestures and expressions seemed to communicate "yes, I already know", "no duh", "I'm interrupting you because I already agree". Wished for a more relaxed and respectful way of being.
Amazing thanks so much 🙏 for getting Dr. P! And a great and informative conversation, looking like the theory is going to be even more important and helpful than it already was!!!! Re PTSD it changed my whole confusion about my states. And I definitely know personally about the link to gut issues and generally nervous system malfunction. I hope the medical field will catch up some time soon and mental health as well.thanks again 🙏
You and me both, thanks for the comment!
I do best finding help through the internet. Medicine is 20 years behind online info. imho😅😮
Very cool- I used to volunteer in the NICU - this talk explained what we were watching for in premies capacity to tolerate human interaction and feeding. Humans are so amazing!
Really interesting! You may be interested in "the vagal paradox." It's the question that he got that started his Polyvagal thinking while working with newborns.
Thanks 🙏 for this wonderful interview as I love listening to this man 👍🏻
Thank you, Justin, and thank you Dr. Porges, for this conversation and for going so much deeper than you usually do! I will go back through Polyvagal 101, listen to this again, and read Dr. P's new paper and Seth's book. As a biologist - and wellness coach - who is interested in the physiological manifestations of trauma, I really appreciated how Dr. P. helped me understand that there's a lot more subtlety and nuance here than I grasped previously.
Cheers!
You're welcome, thank you for leaving a comment! Yes, there is so much more. I recently addressed vagal efficiency, something Dr. Porges discussed in this one and I struggled with. And I also plan on addressing the idea of a "neural algorithm," which I find very intriguing. Thanks for listening!
Had a great time! Thanks 🙏🏻 for this amazing talk !
Glad you enjoyed it!
What’s the role of the amygdala and hpa axis in Polyvagal theory?
That's something I need to study up on more. Once I get a better understanding, I'll create something. :)
it may be that they inform the plyvagal nerve to either continue its response or discontinue. such as the pfc informs the amygdala and vica versa
Major roles, along with the superior temporal sulcus, temporal parietal lobe, fusiform face area of the fusiform gyrus (above, basically processing Neuroception; biological movement as opposed to mechanical movement; face, voice/inflexion, facial interpretations proximity and the insular. Basically all areas of our central nervous system are directly connected into our autonomic nervous system, bi-directionally.
Our HPA (hypothalamic, pituitary adrenal axis) our endocrine system is the head of our sympathetic nervous system. When it is activated for defense its becomes dampened (vagal brake off) and our sympathetic-adrenal (fight/fight) nervous system releases increased cortisol, epinephrine, vasopression, etc. When we are calm and ventral vagus in on (our social emotional engagement system) then dopamine and when at rest in the arms of another person or pet, oxytocin.
The amygdala activated in positive high joyful arousal or fearful, fight/flight based reactions.
These upper neuronal central autonomic systems are communicating (always and inextricably) with lower neuronal brain stem activity (dorsal vagus and ventral vagus).
See wonderful presentation by Allan Schore, Affective Neuroscience: th-cam.com/video/lY7XOu0yi-E/w-d-xo.html
Can you explain more about what he was saying about hypermobile EDS?
I have a mild version of it and understand some degree of dysautonimia goes along with it and it. I missed what his point was.
Facinating 🙏 thanks Justin
Thank you, that was very informative, and I greatly appreciated your clarification!🙏🏼👏👏🙌🙌🙌
Glad it was helpful!
So educational and very interesting.
Thanks Justin for this interview and the opportunity to hear Dr. Porges' perspectives unfiltered , directly from the horse's mouth rather than some of the other orifices out there giving incomplete and erroneous predigested unintelligible interpretations. Some of it's a bit over my non-academic head, and like yourself in the interview I'm a bit unclear on exactly how some aspects of his research apply in practice, but I want to learn more.
I'm only just beginning to explore PVT , but I can already see how it might provide a physiologically-correlated axis to help reconcile many different perspectives and areas of study relating to trauma, psychology, and the human condition. The primary and blended states of the sympathetic and vagal systems can almost be expressed in boolean algebraic logic that explains the "how" and "why" of phenomena that have been observed and described through various belief systems for millennia.
I'm particularly interested in the possible relationship between dorsal shutdown and other similar or blended states and personality adaptations such as Depressive, Avoidant, and Schizoid (notice I do not use the DSM/ICD stigma labels or "clusterf*ck" categories, as I prefer the non-fictional approach of psychoanalysis and pdm2 over medication and insurance-billing references). I am on the schizoid/avoidant (and possibly autism) spectrum and have recently begun to vocalize some of my observations about the currently inadequate standards of research, education, and care in the psychology profession and online community as it relates to the more pervasive psychological conditions, and would appreciate your thoughts and interpretations through the Polyvagal lens as a practitioner. I think this could make for a very informative video (series?) , and perhaps you've already addressed it in other content I haven't viewed yet. I just found your channel last night and subscribed, and am looking forward to your insights. Thanks for what you do, it helps promote a much-needed paradigm shift.
Glad you liked this. I did a series on the podcast applying Polyvagal Theory to a number of DSM disagnoses. But that’s only on the audio podcast, not here on TH-cam. I have a few topics you may find interesting that I’m mulling for the future. Keep an eye out!
My understanding is that the cardioinhibitory myelinated fibers that originated in our transition from asocial reptiles to mammals around 200 million years ago in the nucleus ambiguus (ventral portion of the brainstem) developed alongside, that is directly neuroananatomically linked and coordinated with the five cranial nerves (V, VII, IX, X and XI) and two visceromotor pathways (sinoatrial node of heart and the bronchi) by inter-neuronal connections. So we have breathing, sucking, chewing and swallowing (V and IX) and then over the course of the first year as exponentially more myelinated fibers develop as the infant becomes a social agent, a co-regulator with primary caregivers; deepening reciprocal attachment and attunement or co-regulation which lead to greater self-regulation with the mother (back and forth gazing or face to face affect expressivity (VII) ; the striated muscle of the face all tense the middle ear muscles, tuning into and using more back and forth prosodic vocalizations.
Thank you for the upload, really appreciate your sharing... , but at the same time, I am also observing how "territorial" by default beings can be, eh...maybe that's another area of study. Great interview, thank you!
I loved seeing a different side of Dr. Porges. He's serious about his work and I think a bit frustrated by the "criticisms." Thanks for the comment!
TY@@JustinLMFT
So understandable that he is frustrated, if you know how much patience and cooperative willingness he has brought to the gang who is criticising him so loudly and in many ways in very unfair manner @@JustinLMFT
What I saw was a scientist defending his life's work from misinterpretation, distortion, and possibly outright nefarious...profit-driven...corruption. Certainly there are many who would love to use Dr. Porges' work to develop 'snake oil treatments' to make money for themselves. I think he MUST remain territorial over his work to the extent that he protects it from misuse....as so many other paradigmatic concepts have been. I feel he wants to protect the public from the real-world harms that come out of profit-driven misuses of such powerful concepts...
Dear video host:
I just found you tonight and subscribed. I appreciate this interview.
I'm still watching the video, but a question came to me - is there a way to stop/reverse bradycardia?
Welcome aboard!
As far as your question, that's probably out of my scope of expertise. However, when it comes to Polyvagal defensive states, like shutdown, yes, one can recover. That will result in many physiological changes.
Let Dr. P talk.
Wow. My Mom has VN attacks that give her Puke, Poop, Faint, or Die attacks which overwhelm her physically and she literally loses her control over her bowels, and then messes herself. She does try to make it to the bathroom though. The only thing that regulates her heart and body is laying down on a hard cold surface with a cold washcloth which she puts on the back of her neck. This is something she does intuitively. No training on VN functions. Just instinct. So those bags of Pee's may be on to something.
I was also astonished to learn about the Yogi tongue cutting. As I have always chewed on my tongue during times of stress. It literally keeps my mind on the pain in my tongue, instead of the discomfort of whichever situation I'm in.
I am also convinced that this issue is genetic, not environmental. Recently while doing my family genealogy, I discovered I'm a descendant of Francis Bacon, and we all know why that rebellion ended. His VN attacks literally killed him before he could kill anyone.
It's funny how much your own conscious connection with your VN will communicate to you subconsciously of its needs. As I have always sang and danced my way out of all the toxic relationships/situations that I've been blessed with throughout life. Far more negative than positive experiences too. However the good has always equally been as great as the bad was awful. Balanced. My VN guides me through it all. It does a very good job too.
(Happy survivor of a ongoing 23 yr relationship, with a criminally insane narcissist, father of my children, so I too Identify with the victim JC who was a 19 year abducty stuck between love and hate. But I always thought it was the concept of self sacrifice through the care of a higher power, that was carrying me through it all, and that it was better than my abusive family, plus not wanting to be alone in a world where everyone is broken, I dared to judge less end up isolating myself from literally every "bad" human on earth which would suck, as there was supposedly only ever one perfect man. lol.)
'MIXED STATE'. Well it looks to me like that term takes all into account. To me, a universal catch-all term. I think I could create a psychological conceptualisation for flag, collapse, cringe, cower, divert,distract,dissonance, active realighnment curved retrospective imaging. etc.
Anymore?. As the man states, "you could play with it'. Mmm
Just curious, when did dissociation become the same as dissociative identity disorder? A person can dissociate from a dangerous or uncomfortable situation but it doesn’t mean another personality takes over their consciousness. I wonder how many people are left with the impression now that these two states are the same thing? No. They are not. D.I.D. Has a set of symptoms to diagnose a disorder that impacts someone’s life and is in no way remotely the same zoning out in a particular situation or not making a connection between two conflicting ideas a person is holding.
I don't spend much time on social media. Is this what people are saying?
@@JustinLMFT the host said it.
It's not the same, but both are on the DSM-5 spectrum ( altered state). DID being at the end of the spectrum. Even daydreaming is considered mild dissociation. So is depersonalization and derealization. Did my MSc in Disso iation
36:40 Khecarī mudrā.
1:13:00 "You can't falsify it"
Personally that doesn't bother me, but it does mean by definition that it's on par with Psychoanalysis - pseudoscience at best. I think starting with the nervous system is an intuitive way to look at psychology, but I haven't been convinced that PVT is anything other than conjecture.
If I remember correctly, he said it’s not falsifiable “in the way that you mean it.” Much of the PVT is based on hundreds of peer-reviewed articles, data, and research. Porges used the same information as others in the field to build the PVT and answer the question of the vagal paradox. It’s not like he discovered PVT in a lab and it’s an experiment that can be disproven.Based on his research across various fields, plus his own testable hypotheses and decades of research on the vagus, he put together the PVT. So when he says it’s not falsifiable, he means you’d need to come up with a different answer to the vagal paradox, to come up with a different resolution based on the same information he did.
@@JustinLMFT Saying "hundreds of peer reviewed articles" is the same proof offered in the video and I don't find that an adequate explanation - perhaps you can help? Assigning the roles of ventral and dorsal seems arbitrary, why isn't it? Also, "vagal tone" cannot be measured directly, so why is that used as evidence?
I think looking for proof of PVT or anything else within TH-cam comments is never going to be adequate. I highly recommend reading his primary documents which can be found in various scientific journals. Many are on the Polyvagal Institute's website, including refutations to criticisms.
For measurements, you might want to look into "vagal efficiency" and "respiratory sinus arrythmia." I believe they also use bradycardia as a measurement, but I'm not the source to go to for in depth lab science stuff.
So is the theory a paradigm or scientificly proven? Either way it would have its use, i just came in touch with it and really, it is hard to distiguish early on a least
I'd say it's both a paradigm (or at least fits within other paradigms, like evolutionary) and has a significant scientific grounding in hundreds of peer-reviewed articles, its explanatory power, clinical observations, and its testable hypotheses.
Avery good talk until it went off on the crfiticism thank Gid Braun sten function got us all back on track
Paul Grossman's decades long dispute is not just because of a "lack of understanding" but also a willful obfuscation because (my understanding) from what Steve mentioned previously with regards to his decades long research along very similar lines not being able to develop the theory before Steve did.
I don't want to speculate, but at some point, one has to wonder. I mean, Porges has repeatedly refuted Grossman's assertions. I'm a layperson and it makes sense to me.
@@JustinLMFT I think Steve had alluded to that or I read it somewhere. It would seem that in many respects they were working along the same lines and Polyvagal Theory was presented and left Paul Grossman enormously frustrated. I am not 100% sure.
I wonder if what initially appears to be inflexible brain stem resiliency with respect to the ventral vagal efficiency with no or little variation in RSA (ventral, sympathetic and dorsal) in certain state regulation disorders (i.e., dysautonomia, gastrointestinal disorder, etc.) might in fact not be outside autonomic ventral vagal control with respect to fostering greater vagal resiliency but just appears that way because of the systemic nature and longevity of the condition? In other words, are they really locked into certain states that do not permit autonomic flexibility to more ventral and positive sympathetic regulation? My gut feeling (pardon the pun) I don't think so!
That's a great question as I am understanding it. Are these problems of state regulation or of limitations in one's biology? Am I getting that right?
@@JustinLMFT Yes. I think the two at each juncture are interpenetrating or deeply intwined. So I think and I could be somewhat off here that Steve is alluding to basic structural organizational differences driving function ( ie certain conditions or biological disorders) which would not be a result of shifts in autonomic functioning causing downstream physical symptoms and therefore, the result, let’s say of the positive effectiveness of SSP (Safe and Sound protocol) combined with good therapy (ie cultivating the underlying foundations of felt-safety) would be yes, effective but because of those structural (biological) differences would have certain limitations?
On the other hand, despite the above they might not pose such limitations and there would be a great deal of internal responsiveness and resiliency (i.e., bringing back good vagal efficiency) given the right therapy.
Yes, some fish have a cardioinhibitory myelinated fibers! Whoopee! Can you see them in moments we're not looking give each other "high-fives" with their fins? LOL
Well said.