How Turning The Wrong Knob Killed 92 People | Indian Airlines Flight 605
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ค. 2021
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Wreck Images: The Bureau of Aircraft Accidents Archives
This is the story of Indian airlines flight 605. On the 14th of february 1990 an indian airlines A320 was making the trip from Bombay to bangalore india. This was the planes third flight of the day and it had 146 occupants onboard, they were flying the brand new A320. One of the most sophisticated planes in the sky, even today.The since the plane was brand new this plane had two captains on board. In the right hand seat was the captain in training, he was in the process of getting familiarized with the plane and the route, the captain in training was very experienced but he only had 68 hours on the a320. In the left hand seat was the supervising captain, he had about 250 hours on the a320 and he had been to france to learn all the ins and outs of the a320. With two captains on board The plane took off from bombay at about 12 pm, it was delayed by about an hour. But once the plane was up in the air it was smooth sailing. The plane climbed to 33000 feet. As the plane settled into its cruise the pilots got in touch with bangalore center. They had to let the controllers know about their estimated arrival time at bangalore and with the way things were looking the pilots estimated to enter the madras Flight information region by 12:36 pm and to reach bangalore by 1:04 pm. They also talked about the weather at bangalore, there were clouds at 2000 feet over the airport and winds were at 5 knots and 10 kilometers of visibility, pretty good weather. By 12:44 pm they were getting quite close and the pilots requested permission to descend. Air traffic control cleared them down to 11,000 feet as they got closer to the airport.As the plane descended the pilots turned their attention the approach that they'd be flying today. They planned to use a VOR DME approach to land on runway 09. This approach required them to descend from 6000 feet at 11 miles from the airport and to descend from 4500 feet at 7 miles from the airport. They werent allowed to go below 3280 feet without sighting the runway. It was 12:53 pm and bangalore ATC had the plane on radar, as the plane kept descending the pilots configured the plane for the landing. It was one pm and the plane was 7 miles away, flight 605 got transferred to the bangalore tower.
In the cockpit the final checks were being carried out. The captain in training asked the cabin crew to prepare for landing. If things went right They'd be on the ground in a few minutes. But the plane was a bit above the glide slope, it wasn't so high above the glide slope that it jeopardized the landing, but it's something that the pilots had to contend with during the final approach. To fix this the captain in training asked the other pilot to set the vertical speed to 1000 feet, he was essentially telling the autopilot to descend at 10000 feet per minute, this was a steeper descent than usual and so that would allow them to get back on the correct glide path. A bit later the captain in training calls for a descent rate of 700 feet per minute. They had now intercepted the correct glideslope, therefore they didnt need to descend as fast.
From the cabin this looked like any other landing, nothing made you think that anything was out of the ordinary. But in the cockpit the pilots knew that something was off, the plane was well below the glideslope. The automated radio altimeter kept calling out their altitude, 400, 300 200. Ideally when you hear these callouts you should be very close to the runway but the safety of bangalore's runway was still far away.
Flight 605 ran out of time, the plane touched down on a golf course near the airport. The first touchdown was soft enough that most passengers thought that they had landed on the runway but the second impact was much more severe, the plane impacted a 12 foot high embankment - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
I'm friends with one of the survivors, she lost her entire family that day😢 She suffered horrific burns, which took many many years to recover from. She is now an advocate and campaigner for Burns Survivors. One of the most inspiring people I have ever met🙏
Wow. I have no words other than that she must be one heck of lady.
@@TSWest she really is! 🙌😊
@@flewyae86 . ....
Entire... family?!
@@ThePersianYT entire immediate family.
My uncle died in this crash. In a cruel twist of fate, he requested a seat in the front row as he wanted to exit quickly as he was late for a conference. The front row was completely destroyed on impact. Sadly, "Better late than never" was learnt a very hard way that day.
Sorry for your loss
my brother too lost his life.
My deepest condolences to you both. May their memories be a blessing.
Sorry for your loss. It was disheartening to see the crash.
Very sad.. 🙏
Imagine watching yourself flying into the ground, realizing it and not doing anything about it.....AVIATE!
Imagine being on the golf course and seeing that thing coming toward you..FORE!
Lol
It seems more to a pilot under the influence of boOOOOOOS ,. with this nature n circumstances
Yeah, I'm just an armchair pilot, but seems like they should have realized that the throttles were at idle and they were too far from the airport and applied power long before it was too late.
Many Airbus pilots are very dependent AND encouraged by Airbus to be dependent on automation... It's in their book. That helps low time pilots and less disciplined crews get away with it. But when s*it hits the fan.. They keep the automation on and fly right into terrain. It doesn't occur to them to disconnect and fly manually. Like that Airbus that flew right into the trees on a low pass.
They weren't following the golden rule of piloting; "just fly the plane"!
Not with an Airbus. They do the flying, you go along for the ride. Only when you understand the logic behind the way these things fly are you safe to fly them.
@@Trevor_Austin okay so the golden rule of Airbus is to "just make sure the plane is flying" then?
@@R2Bl3nd That is what the training is meant to do. It failed these pilots and their passengers spectacularly.
I guess Airbus or Boeing, the golden rule in this case would've been: "just go around!"
@@R2Bl3nd The plane was flying but to a lower altitude than ground below them so it was handling the thrust for a decent into terrain . As far as I am aware toga altitude was set below ground level so plane set thrust to idle
In my 8000 hours as captain on the Airbus, I've seen many similar situations where the airplane didn't do what I expected. Pilot's are taught in Airbus school to use automation, but the more experienced I got the more I learned the best thing in unusual situations was to turn off the autopilot and autothrottles and hand fly.
And then u woke
Hii sir plz give me some tips to became pilot I'm in class 10 🙂
Plz captain Steve🙂
@@ActinidesOfficial pehli tip ye hai ki tumhara baap itna ameer ho ki tum 1crore ka course le sako dusra ki ye kisi bacche ka khel nhi hai training krne mein hi 1crore lag jate hai aur upar se job interview mein fail ho gye toh jindagi barbaad itna karja leke mar jaoge
@@JEE-ff5pp demotivate kyun kar raha ha bechare ko..
The pilots were negligent, specifically the supervising captain who needed supervising himself by the sounds of it. What a tragic and avoidable incident, if only they'd just flown the plane!!
This crash is an important example of why you should double check everything you do.
Not so. These were poorly trained pilots. The Airbus doesn’t have an OFF switch. There is always a nasty little reminder that the “system” is in charge and you have to ask it “nicely” what you would like it to do.
@@titan4110 Double, triple, quadrupole checking would not have saved the day. Once you put the wrong altitude in the window you are screwed. When the ground looks too bloody close the last thing you’ll check is the go-around altitude.
@@Trevor_Austin They seemingly had enough time to double check and go back on course. They didn't crash immediately after the wrong setting it took some time.
@@titan4110 It will do. Don’t forget, lateral navigation is easy. This was a vertical nav problem. At 700/800 fpm rate of descent the time available is very short and when you go around altitude is less than you current altitude not much happens.
Ok, I'm just a lowly private pilot, single engine with 460 hrs. But when I'm on final my 3 priorities are altitude, airspeed and visual contact with the runway. If any of these don't look right, I know I need to do something. With a visibility of 10 km they would have seen the runway and the VASI or PAPI lights. These pilots simply were not flying the plane. There is no excuse for that.
💯
U r right. They were careless
Ur not lowly anything ☺️
Absolutely true
I know I've seen this video before but holy craps, sitting and diagnosing autopilot issues whilst they are skimming the trees when all they should have done is just added power.
all they had to do was switch the auto pilot off and actually fly the plane
@@adotintheshark4848 , the autopilot was off. The first officer was hand flying.
With the thrust levers in the detent the thrust is “managed”. Pressing the TOGA triggers will deliver go around power to your selected altitude. If that’s beneath you then you have a problem as you don’t add thrust to go down.
@@stevegiboney4493 actually, an Airbus cannot be flown completely manually. Every input has to go through a computer, and if the computer doesn't like it, it flies the plane for you.
@@adotintheshark4848 not in direct law…
I was on duty as a Doctor at the emergency department at Victoria Hospital,Bangalore,where I was doing my MD in Internal Medicine,we got a urgent call from the Hospital Superintendent,saying that a plane had crashed and we should gear up and wait for the accident victims,sadly what we instead saw was dead bodies coming in hordes,and we had to make the wards into morgues,as there was no space in the mortuary.one thing I clearly remember,is a mother who had a small infant on her lap,and both mother and the infant were burnt beyond recognition,It was a sad sight.....
Push the A320 throttles fully forwards and TOGA power initiates. You get the go around power like any other "conventional" aircraft. Or press the TOGA button and the computer will literally push the throttles forward on your behalf if you are feeling lazy. Fly your flipping aircraft. There is absolutely no excuse for sitting in the cockpit and allowing your plane to hit the ground.
Especially in VMC!
TOGA failed due to FADEC coding bug. The bug resulted in few seconds additional delay (few seconds more than normal)
@@aksaichin was this FADEC debugging theory confirmed by the investigating team?
Agreed, but we don't have TOGA buttons on the airbus and we don't have throttle, we have thrust levers for selecting auto thrust modes. Also They don't move by themselves.
@@amitendudey2365 yes
Unbelievable. CFIT in broad daylight, VFR conditions, in a perfectly-functioning aircraft, with no pilot incapacitation, stalls or other complicating circumstances, or untimely acts of God. They just calmly watched as their plane slowly flew into the ground.
Very tragic
The Pilots Association will always take the pilots' side, its literally their job. That doesnt mean, that they are wrong, but they will always be biased in favor of the pilots.
In this case as presented, there seems to be no evidence pointing to their explanation of design flaws. And while the investigators were not able to prove, what happened, they did have several examples of pilots making such mistakes, whereas there have been no examples of design flaws leading to this scenario. So I, not being a pilot, am going with the investigators on this one.
Also, regardless of how they came to be in this situation, too low, too far from the airport, as it was a clear day with plenty of visibility, there can be no excuse for the pilots flying their plane into the ground.
I would say, if multiple pilots make a mistake, that is a design flaw. Still no excuse for dicking around while your plane flies itself into the ground.
Automation is ok, but if you don’t understand all the nuances about it, it can kill you. This is not the only crash where automation was a factor.
Maybe having 10k hrs on another type is a bit of a problem for some pilots. Some things are wired in your brain maybe.
@@stevegiboney4493 This one was 99% decision making. There was nothing at all wrong with the TOGA switch. Press it and go around. Or you simply push fully forward on the throttles (like any other airplane) and the engines spool up and you go around. This is more like using cruise control and allowing your car to drive into a wall.
@@andrewsmall6568 , not if they think the throttles are being managed by the computers, clearly they misunderstood the automation. I contend it was a factor, not the sole cause, but a factor. First officer has 70 hours , captain has 200 hours in type? It was their expectation of computer intervention to keep them flying that set the stage for the mistakes that followed in my opinion and clearly the pilots union’s as well.
I recently watched a bunch of your old videos and I am really impressed with how much your delivery has improved. Always looking out for a new video of yours, it's a really great format you got there!
Thank you!
Agreed! This kid is nailing it! Every new video is better than the last. Let’s get him to 100,000!
Why is a court/judge responsible for an air crash investigations rather than civil aviation experts?
@@smcdonald9991 Court proceedings are initiated because of fatalities and a major aviation accident, and so there is a Judge presiding over the case. However, the judge and court rely on expert advise from accident investigators and the manufacturer to provide domain expertise. Of course the pilots' union/association will do all that it can to absolve the pilots of blame - especially when radically new technologies are incorporated in a plane that they too cannot fully understand!!! Shameful, but that's the union for you.
@@sunnyshukla9477 They shouldn't just try to absolve the pilots of blame otherwise this situation could happen again they should look at how it came about so it never happens again . I blame is pilot training they most likely emphasized the Airbus system would take care of plane but ultimately it only does what pilot commands it to . Command it to fly into terrain and it will while staying within its fly't envelope protection
The pilots forgot: Aviate, navigate, communicate.
These guys remind me of the Eastern Airlines pilots who stopped flying their plane to focus on a light bulb.
They ignored the slow descent, and crashed a plane in the Everglades
All due to 2 pilots and an engineer discussing a burned out landing gear light bulb,
and not thinking
"Ah, who is flying?"
Wasn’t quite as cut and dry as that, Marc. Although the crash was ultimately caused by pilot error, the light bulb in question was to indicate whether or not the gear was down (the nose gear if I’m not mistaken), with the light not giving them confirmation of that, they couldn’t land with their fingers crossed hoping it was down! They needed to be sure.
I believe in the subsequent kafuffle in the cockpit during the go-around, the yoke was accidentally knocked, disengaging the auto-pilot and putting the aircraft on a slight descent- so slight nobody noticed. Problem back then was there wasn’t much of an alarm to indicate the AP had been disengaged and all three pilots missed it….something that’s since been corrected.
Add into the mix the dark conditions and lack of ground lighting it was a bit of a recipe for disaster, which I wouldn’t put down to COMPLETE gross negligence on the pilots behalf.
@@eddie_1878 Exactly cut and dry.....no person was flying the aircraft.....whilst 3 pilots examined a light bulb.
The CVR recorded all 3 arguing about that light. Meaning they were all looking down at the light and not once looking at their other instruments. Crazy stuff. In the end, would it have been too much trouble to fly a go around and let the tower check visually? RIP EA 401, the 'Ghost Plane'.
@@eddie_1878 Published reports of a misunderstanding of "Hold your altitude"with one unslaved yoke disengaging autopilot.
One should believe the investigators as they are fairly neutral in this situation. The Pilots Association is very much biased and was just working basic damage control.
It sure sounded like a cookie-cutter list of excuses to MY ears.
Bro they are the Airline Pilots Association it's literally their job to take the side of their pilots.
2nd the cockpit design was indeed confusing which is why Airbus changed it. The delay theory also made sense because they could've at least not crashed into a wall if that delay wasn't there.
I do not see any VALID pilot excuses here. I can certainly understand and appreciate the stress with "your are being thorougly reviewed today" but ANY pilot can see they were WAY too low. TO/GA, at a minimum - troubleshoot it later. There was another incident with Air India (sorry I cannot find it just now) where there was a near-accident and the investigation concluded the pilots did not understand the Airbus autopilot modes of operation. The Boeing AP model is simpler, to be sure, but I would sincerely hope that any Airbus pilot would understand their AP "very well" or better.
@@titan4110 They didn't change it though. These planes still fly in the original form. They just enhance pilot training so they have an understanding of the vessel they are controlling.
@@jesspavlichenko5745 Ima go ahead and hunt the guy that told me they changed it thanks for telling me.
Every single mode change in this plane has to be checked on the PFD and verbalized by the PF and checkedby the PM.
A big mistake is always make changes in the auto pilot panel and only that. I talked to a trainer capitain that was used to turn of the displays on the auto pilot panel forcing new pilots to look into the PFD instead.
When you ask -700 V/S you check on the PFD and you call "vertical speed -700 blue" the pilot monitoring looks at his own PFD and calls "checked".
When you got 4 reds you push the thrust levers forward to the toga detent.
There is no argument about fly by wire, computers, fadec or whatever.
The pilots association has no argument.
Following the manufacturer's operating manual and a good Crew training as well as a solid company's SOPs makes the difference between a safe and unsafe airlines.
Many Indian organizations have a history of scapegoat-ism. No surprise that this is what they tried to do here as well.
I appreciate that when you realized that you made a mistake, you didn’t deny that you were wrong, you corrected your mistake and updated your video… thanks for being honest!
I have a phrase written in the front of my log book, it says, "Always remember to fly the place first!" My first flight instructor put it there, he was a very wise man with decades of flight experience. These two pilots failed something very basic.
I’ve got 11,000 hours on the airbus, you explained this very well for the layman to understand…..
how do you cope with ear popping, I'm an enthusiast but I have a fear of the pain in my ear before landing and the fact that when I apply for a Job in the future, It may affect my performance and cause me unwanted pain for a while plus also when it takes time on the ground to adjust the the pressure
@@dbnmore you can move your jaw to equalize the air pressure in your ear, it doesn’t seem to be an issue for most people.
Just yawn and open your mouth wide open and close it with some force. That normally works for me.
@@dbnmore you wont have any problem in yours ears unless its an emergency decent
@@dbnmore look up "eustachian tube", that's what the popping feeling in your ears is from.
I love how humble this guy is - he’s got no airs about him and I’m liking his videos more and more 😊. He doesn’t seem to realise just how good his content really is.
Indian Airlines was so weird. Growing up, I used to have to fly on it when visiting India from the States. The last time was like 11-12 years ago, on a rickety old Airbus puddle-jumper from Bombay to Hyderabad. I don’t think it’s even an hour-long flight, but bizarrely, they served what was BY FAR the best meal I’ve ever had on a flight. Like, it was a legitimately tasty, satisfying lunch, and that’s coming from a notoriously picky eater. But the flight itself was pretty nerve-wracking, as the plane felt like it was being held together with duct tape. It’s as if the airline spent its entire budget on food. Then again, if you think you might kill your passengers, I suppose the least you can do is to serve them a nice meal first.
well, governments are not good at operating airlines. Indian Airlines or Air India never had a say... they acted the way the ministers and politicians wanted them to
Agree, Indian Airlines food used to be their key highlight all throughout.
@@antaripbiswas3783
Depends on the government, really. Lufthansa always used to be excellent, while Alitalia was a total disaster. And the middle eastern airlines are more or less exclusively government owned.
@@mikeblatzheim2797 Good point. I mean, there are very few bad things to be said about, say, Qatar Airways, or Emirates.
@@HalfShelli yep!!
There is no glide slope with a VOR/DME approach. Instead, there is a descent profile to fly, with specific height restrictions at specific distances from the threshold. This is classified as a non precision approach which is more demanding than the usual precision approaches (ILS) flown by airline crews. This is relevant here, because the flight crew were VERY inexperienced operating this complex aircraft.
"If things went right, they'd be on the ground in a few minutes..."
I believe they'd be on the ground in a few minutes, maybe especially, if things *didn't* go right
Screw the "Open Descent Mode" .....once the ground started getting closer the pilot should have clicked OFF any automation and increase POWER. What the X is wrong with them that they would fly a perfectly good airplane into the ground in clear weather?
Un-freaking-believable.
Thank you for correcting the mistake and admitting that it happened. It takes a lot of integrity to do that, and the world needs more integrity.
I think that Airbus did seem to have a lot of ergonomic issues when the A320 was first released, but if you look at the safety record of the aircraft, nearly all of the accidents are caused by pilots failing to monitor their decent.
Descent****
Good thing the training captain went to France to learn all the ins and outs of this aircraft.
Quite.
I've got a friend and all the installation crews use either the German or the English instructions, never the French. There was a rather expensive piece of equipment to draw power from fossil fuels and they noticed the German version said to turn the switches to the right, and the French to the left.
@@lawrencetaylor4101 you still can search for the rate of fatal accidents there are in France and compare with other countries, you'll see it is obviously showing that the trainings are ok.
Nak
Dark humor
I’ve been watching your channel since the beginning, and I really enjoy seeing the progression in quality in your videos. I’m so proud of what you’ve done with your channel, and I love watching it grow.
Keep up the awesome work, can’t wait to see where you take it next.
I appreciate that!
It’s amazing how pilot unions protect incompetent crews.
That is what they're supposed to do. Sometimes, they get too overzealous about it and go into denial.
Well done for the correction. Just a tip for the future. If it’s an ILS approach (I think also GLS/SLS approach) then it’s glide slope. Any other it’s glide path. And the autopilot panel on the A320 is the FCU and MCP on a Boeing
Thanks for the help!
FCU? MCP?
@@K1OIK Flight Control Unit
Mode Control Panel
This is a very well put together video! The crash of the plane is just absolutely horrific!! Thank you for creating, uploading and sharing...keep up the great work!!! 😊✈
My first experience in flight sims was Microsoft Flight Simulator 2.0 and I'm still in awe of the incredible advance in graphics.
The fact that very experienced pilots made mistakes does point to some design considerations. The fact that very experienced pilots dicked around with esoteric controls while watching their plane fly itself into the ground points to not very good pilots.
True on both counts.
This is more like gross negligence. The knob is shape different so just by touching it without even looking that should have already alerted them that it is a wrong knob.
Also there is a display right above the knob telling them exactly what they are turning so they didn’t even bother to look at it.
Then there is the indication which autopilot mode they are in right in front of them on their primary display so they didn’t look at that either.
And turning the VS knob to 700 would only required them to turn 7 clicks but since they are turning the ALT knob that would have been a lot more than 7 clicks, maybe 15-20 clicks to reach 700. Again, they totally ignored it.
I don’t think this is design flaw. If they add another design safety feature, it probably just going to get ignored again by these dipshits flying the plane anyway.
They need to have crew selection/ review process to prevent these braindead people from entering the cockpit.
I'm on the side of the investigators. Sad the pilots messed up.. great video!
Thanks, MiniAir! I know NOTHING about flying a plane and don't possess a STEMy mind, but I understand you every time. You have a great way of making the incredibly complicated intuitive. And you sound like you're smiling, too, which is welcoming. Waiting for your next upload! 🖖🐢👣
I like that you handle being corrected so constructively. My heart goes out to the loved ones of those who passed in this accident..
Great coverage. Very thorough. Thank You: I have "SUBSCRIBED."
Very good commentary. Open descent mode has caught out more than a few unwary pilots. The term 'mode confusion' entered pilots' vocabulary. I was just reading about open descent and critically it rolls back the engines to flight idle.
I’m glad your subscriptions number going up! Keep up the good work
Again great video. Also subscriber of Airspace. There is something in both channels that is beyond interesting. I just love those channels.
An example of pilots who forgot how to fly because they’re too reliant on the autopilot. The autopilot started doing things the pilots didnt want it to do, the speed started bleeding off and they didnt notice. Lesson here is, always know everything your plane is doing, and if it starts getting away from you, kill the autopilot and fly it yourself, sort it out when you’ve got altitude to spare.
Did you actually listen to the video? The autopilot was disconnected. The pilots were flying manually under guidance from the FD’s
@@tomstravels520 The auto pilot was in control of the auto throttles. So the auto pilot was not completely out of the situation. The pilot flying was relying on the auto pilot to keep his speed under control.
@@bobkile9734 Stay alert stay alive troop, attention. At 7:38 the Aircraft went into open Dissent mode, The pilots were in control of the speed. Remember open dissent mode, the automation doesn’t manage your speed for you.
@@halojump123 and that’s what I’m referring to. They didn’t know that the auto pilot changed modes, so they were relying on it to monitor their speed for them while they sit there fat, dumb, and happy.
@@halojump123 and that’s what I’m referring to. They didn’t know that the auto pilot changed modes, so they were relying on it to monitor their speed for them while they sit there fat, dumb, and happy. And when the plane started doing things that they didn’t wanted to do, they were trying to troubleshoot instead of flying out of the situation
Love your channel. You are an awesome narrator and the writing and research you do is amazing!
Love your channel! Good explanation and easy to listen to.
In my opinion I think it was the pilots at fault, regardless of the fact that they were just getting used to the A320... They would have been OK if they initiated a go around when they reached decision altitude and the runway was not in sight.
The fault lies with Airbus and Air India training.
@@Trevor_Austin air India training. Airbus has not faults in this
@@bibekyt8276 even though the plane is not Air India, they get blamed :D
I live in banglore. I asked my father what he knew. he was in his final year of college. What happened according to him is, when they increased the rate of change of descent, and were aligned with the glide slope, the pilot decreased the descent but the computer takes a lil bit amount of time to accept the input. Before it could take the input it crashed
@@bibekyt8276 Of course Airbus was at fault. They made a really grotesque error in their user interface.
It astonished and disgusts me how many times pilots (drivers/operators/etc) get blamed for accidents when the root problem is systemic and results from crappy design and inadequate analysis of the problem domain.
(Former designer of UIs, SOPs, and training materials.)
The pilots should have noticed earlier. Literally all they had to do was open their eyes and see that they were to far from the runway at 400ft. Complete joke. If In any doubt you add power and go around.
Ah, here it is. I knew it'd be here somewhere. But I like your style of handling this haha
@@SwedePotato314 judging by the other comments I’m not the only one who thinks this. I do completely understand that they could have been confused not knowing what the auto pilot was up to etc… but they forgot to just fly the plane. That’s basic flight school stuff. Could have easily been avoided. Yes a slight design issue contributed to this but pilot error makes up the majority of it for me.
Noticing earlier would have doing nothing. The killer was the go-around altitude. As the tree tops are flicking your arse the last thing you’ll look for is the go-around altitude.
@@Trevor_Austin so if they noticed their mistake say a minute earlier it would have done nothing 🤷♂️
If that is SOP it should be clear if they broke it when they were outside the limitations. But automation is mind boggling in it's complexity and latency is the bane of modern life. If this was flown without automation, I doubt the accident would have happened.
Yet another sad example of two pilots who lacked the basic skill of being able to hand fly their aircraft. The airlines need to hire pilots that can actually fly and not just monitor and manipulate the automation. These guys struggled with it all the way down to impact. The passengers deserve better.
That's what happens when you are trained to fly the computer rather than the plane.
@@aeomaster32 Well said..
those two pilots are captains with more than 10 000 hours of flight. I think they have the basic skills to fly. Don't forget that even the investigators don't really know what is the cause of this accident. they have only hypothesis. it's easy for us to blame others while sitting on our couch....
@@Boubson Ten thousand hours of doing what? It certainly didn't help them in this case, did it? I would bet almost anything that neither of these guys had ever even hand flown their airplanes at cruise altitude. Hours and hours of monitoring with little or no hands on experience. Sorry, sticking with my opinion but I do appreciate yours.
@@Boubson probably’ 10 000 flying with AP only. A real pilot would have taken over manually.
Another quality video. Would love more Naval battle anysis like your midway series (other channel).
Awesome video man ❤️❤️❤️...I am very happy that you are covering each and every air crashes...Cheers man 🙄..I belong to Madras state which you mentioned in the video 👍👍
My uncle used to train commercial pilots and flew 747s for TWA a million years ago. I remember hearing him say "fly the airplane, not the computer."
When I was a kid my dad's best friend flew 727's for United. When they got 747's he bid on one and took their route to Hawaii. He flew it for one bid cycle and moved back to his 727. He said he hated the damn thing because it was like flying a building with a computer attached.
I was once attending a party hosted by a former IA maintenance engineer and attended by some of his pilot friends. They recounted their early days of flying the A320 after mostly flying 737-200s. The A320 was too alien for them. I distinctly remember one story of a frustrated captain yelling 'the aircraft is not taking my command!'. Perhaps fly by wire was too advanced for them back in the day. The IA fleet consisted of B737-200s, a few Airbus A300s and the rest were Dorniers. IA was the only domestic airline and wasn't much industry knowledge from the outside world. Those were the days of state monopolies in all sectors 'aka socialism'. Things have changed for the better since then.
"Dorniers" ?? Surely you mean HS 748s
@@MrJohnmci or Dornier 328
@@gargoyle7863 Sorry, but their nickname was Avro, not Dornier (which is German)
@@MrJohnmci en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_228
@@gargoyle7863 I did not know of the HAL - Dornier tie up - interesting. But they never flew with Indian Airlines. What was also not mentioned were IA's Caravelles
Love your vids man. Real informative.
Thank you!
Haven't dropped in for a while, your delivery and pacing has improved a lot, feels a lot more natural and less hurried. Well done man!
Aside from any design flaw with the Open Descent mode, being able to set a desired altitude lower than ground level seems like a weird oversight in itself.
I'm sure there's probably some technical reason why this is so, but I'd have thought that the radar altimeter/GCWS equipment would be linked to the autopilot to prevent it.
I also wonder if these kinds of CFIT accidents are sometimes caused by nothing more complicated than the pilot/s not wanting to admit that they screwed up the approach.
Terrain radar and EGPWS didn’t exist in 1990. And the ground below you may be much higher than the airport so not being able to set the altitude you want may cause you to forget to adjust it later
i was waiting for this, love your video,s sir
Thank you!!
Even in msfs 2020 I double check everything before landing. Didn't expect that from a professional pilot.
Thank you for this report, I was booked on this flight but had to cancel my booking few hours before the flight, I did see you some of the rescue work on the next day.
Your posts are so informative for a lay person like me. Thanks.
Would anyone know whether today the cockpit controls have some level of sophistication where some voice prompts come when some critical function or parameter is chosen? Just like in PCs you have prompt/warning messages that pop up when the user opts for some critical choice....
It’s noticeable that you either got a better microphone, or turned up the volume. 👍
I watched both versions of this video and can't tell the difference, but I think it's a mark of your professionalism that you remade the video, rather than just leaving a pinned comment explaining the mistake.
It was about the autopilot. He mentions it at end of this video
You do a great job with these videos.
Mr. MACI, I wanted to let you know that I am really enjoying your Channel and have been for approximately a year or so now. I do not have an aviation background and neither does my family. However I have an interest in it and your Channel is very informative. It's obvious you work hard to do your research and ensuring that your facts correct.
Thank you for the time and energy you invest and I look forward to more posts from M.A.C.I.
Also you fairly earned L & S. Peace
Instead of fiddling with knobs and AP and FD, PIC should just say My airplane, and turn the Ap off and manually land.
Incompetence at its finest.
The autopilot was off. Did you not hear that bit?
@@tomstravels520 if it was off, it wouldnt drive plane into the hill.
@@KuvDabGib it didn’t. The pilot dived it into the hill because they were loosing speed and all the pilot did was try and pull up without adding any power. As you loose speed you loose lift and the pilots didn’t realise the autothrust was in the idle mode due to them activating open descent mode. But that doesn’t mean it was the autopilot that crashed the plane. The commands are sent to the FMGC which decide what mode the thrust should be in depending what the pilot asked for in terms of vertical mode
@@tomstravels520 Which is why he should cut the fiddling with instrumentation and automatics and fly the plane down manually. Dont bother explaining the details i got them explained to me 30 years ago.
@@KuvDabGib if you had the details explained you’ve clearly forgotten or you’d know the connection between the AP/FD and the FMGC. Again….the plane was flown MANUALLY!!! The inputs into the FMGC and adjust the FD’s were just to help guide the pilot on the glide path (still done today) until they got closer and could go visual where they would turn off the FD’s
When your Eyeball Mk I tells you you're not going to make the runway, stop fiddling with the freaking computer. Absolutely insane what happened here.
10:57 haha you can see "ulsoor lake" down there, its my homebase lake and VOBG (old bangalore airport) is quite near to where i live, btw amazing video mate!
I've been seeing some of your videos, and they are nice, short and to the point. For this one, I wanted to point out, that I used to fly A320 family aircraft in real life and I still do fly sophisticated study level models in flight sim.
Your description of the Automatic Flight System of the A320 is quite well. I do believe that the investigators have gotten on the right spot. If it was a flawless flight, with everything done correctly, I would look for another explanation, but here obviously many things went wrong. The really big thing is, however, that the pilots did not go around in time. The delay between commanding thrust and the spooling of the engine is minimal. The delay from spooling them, to get power, however, is much more significant.
I don't know about others, but if I am flying and see I am descending more and more, my speed dropping and there is no runway below or directly in front of me, I punch the throttles all the way forward. It was as simple as that, and if the pilots had done all they could, then this would have been the first thing they would have done.
The explanation of the pilot association is on the other hand pretty unlikely. The Airbus A320 has had its fair number of flaws and when it was introduced in an area, where aircraft used to have gauges and yokes, it caused accidents - some due to flaws. Air Inter comes to mind here, where FPM and FPA got confused during descent (by the way, a good topic for a video). However, disabling the Flight Director is as simple as pressing a small, tiny pushbutton. While I won't rule out a malfunction, it is highly unlikely that this happened. Even if it would and even if the plane was in fully managed (automatic) flight, pushing the throttles forward gives TO/GA thrust and, when on approach, automatically activates go around mode.
10:00 Surely if you select an altitude that is in fact underground, there is something in the automation that prevents this? Why would you have automation that allows you to select TBM - Tunnel Boring Mode?
1) Aircraft didn’t know what the elevation below them was until EGPWS came about.
2) The elevation below you might be higher than where you want to descend to.
Yeah, excellent point-- Heidi would've corrected that for her humans, NO PROBLEM😍 (may she RIP😮💨🤧🥴)!!!
I've noticed in recent years that the crashes tend to be caused by software issues or lack of understanding of new planes by the crews. It used to be that most crashes were due to some mechanical defect or a maintenance problem. Being a programmer by trade, I find it terrifying that an unexpected flaw in your code could bring a plane down. Personally, I wouldn't write the software for an autopilot - I know how many bugs my code has.
Honesty matters..
Bugs in your code won't make an aircraft crash. Even if the autopilot fails, the pilots have the option of completely disengaging it and fully controlling the aircraft.
@@lone5463 True - but - I have seen so many cases where pilots have misunderstood what the aircraft was doing or not realized that anything was wrong because of something the autopilot stopped doing. I'd go nuts trying to work out every possibility.
@@doggonemess1 There are also many examples where if the pilots had simply trusted the autopilot everyone would have been fine like Aerolot Flight 593 or the 2002 Uberlingen Mid-Air collision. The software might be problematic but it's not as problematic as people.
What stands out above all else here -
You were alerted to a mistake you made and not only did you fix it... but you admitted the mistake, THANKED the person who caught it and admitted that you may make more in the future, but that you hope not.
May seem like a common sense reaction when you think about it logically but it's no where near common.
BIG ATTABOY!
That was a very thorough explanation!!
Why don't they just say the pilots weren't trained to fly that plane?
Because that wouldn’t be true. The higher ranking captain received training for this specific craft in France, had 250 hours in it. It’s in the video..
Because they did. The pilot was trained, extensively. What he did was inexplicable, maybe he thought he could rescue the landing and pushed it too far. Anyway, he's not alive to explain his side of the story.
@@rick15666 they still messed up so many things that they shouldn't have..don't think they were paying attention
@@CW-rx2js agreed. sadly they paid for that mistake with their lives
When I saw the FDs go down to 10 degrees after 1000 fpm descent was selected, I thought the plots mixed up their pitch and vertical speed.
Hello rock star ,love your videos, you came so far
Great video, nice and clear explanation. Good diction (so nicer for us non-native English speakers).
Thanks.
Maybe you should have looked for an A320ceo model instead 😉
"Oh wow those callouts shouldn't be happening, we're way too low"
"Should I push the throttles to TO/GA so we can stop descending?"
"Nah, I've been wanting to do some golfing. This'll just get us there sooner"
Did he really say, “This was the TURD flight of the day”?
I survived 605 Bangalore crash 🙏 . This was a true nightmare.
I remember this one. What really got me is, speed mode or not, how they went so long without noticing the throttle position. The engines whine back, the power setting display flashes at you. And just the feel of the airplane is different. My FIRST thought when losing speed is to put my hand on the throttle, especially on a landing. They were focused WAY too much on the automation controls and never took control of the ship.
1990... That means the old airport, Bangalore has a new and more safer airport now. This crash kinda triggered the government to build a new airport.
Whatever the shortcomings of the airport in question, I don't think the airport had much to do with this accident.
@@ronarnett4811 agreed.
Please make a video on Charkhi Dadri mid-air collision
This sounds exactly like my first flight with the A320 neo in MFS 2020. The only difference is my Glidescope didn't catch for some reason so I turned off the autopilot at around 2000- 3000 ft. and landed it manually. Idk if it's a glitch or something but Glidescope sometimes tend to mess up my landing by going too high on the approach for some reason and I usually have to go around or land it manually by decreasing my altitude very quickly. Now I don't care about the Glidescopes at all and just use localiser and manual inputs for landing.
Although it is obvious today of what these pilots should've done, we have to remember one thing. the Airbus glass cockpit and fly by wire technology in the 80s was like a UFO technology for analog/cable friendly pilots of that era. I can imagine how confused they were by looking at those jam-packed screens and digital numbers. I think they went both so deep into understanding how to recover the situation that they completely lost sight of their speed and altitude.
Great video thank you
It is interesting how the pilot's association usually seems to side with the pilots and almost always seems to blame the automation instead. Obviously if this plane has been working perfectly before on other flights and the very same automation works on similar models around the world then the fault is with the pilots not understanding or not handling the automation correctly. It is as simple as that.
Not at all that simple.
@@heinzriemann3213
It is that simple if there are no electrical faults or software bugs with the automation. What reason could there be to blame the automation rather than the pilot's handling of it?
I always believe that for take off and landing pilots should have full control of the aircraft, don’t rely too much on computers and tech.
If the model is new, train more.
The whole reason we got computers to do the work for us it because people are terrible at it. Relying on computers is much better than relying on people.
I visited the crash site a few days after the crash. Some of the debris from the flight were still in the marshlands near the boundary wall and the 12 foot embankment had the impact marks from the landing gear hitting it.. I was too young too grasp what had happened back then..
Looking back, it was a sad day for the families whose members perished and a sad day for the aviation folks n general.
@74gear. Would be interesting to hear your take on the errors/flaws
I still find it strange to see an A320 with twin axle bogeys on the main gear. Looks like a baby 757.
Exactly i Just notice the landing gear seem different having two boggie instead of a single boggie.
That was specially built for Indian Airlines, as they used to operate out of few unpaved airports back then.
At 200 feet above the ground and dropping, flying the aircraft takes priority over diagnosing a problem.
Another good video.
Thanks
Really sad because, of judge-mental and lack of understanding of the A320 workings,the pilots were on able to correct their mistakes on time leading to the unfortunate deaths of does people onboard the aircraft. Thanks so much for this new insight into it will peace to a lot of people.
Can you do Orville and Wilbur Wright's 12 second flight?
Too short.
The data recorder was destroyed in the crash. lol
@@dashcamandy2242 No one took a video?
Seriously he should do a 12 second video 🤣
I could screw-up REAL bad in my job and no-one would ever die.
Well maybe you screwed up so bad at your job someone died of shock
Besides visual instruments in front of them there is a reason for having front windows/windshield. I can’t understand why they waited so long when seeing the ground coming up very fast.
Great video and excellent narration! EDIT: Scarebus strikes again, it seems. Utterly convoluted, opaque engineering. Otherwise known as feature creep.
Just fly the damned plane.
14:24 the computer determines if the command will be accepted (my wording.) This is regardless of autopilot engagement, I believe. So a computer programmer determines what is safe and does not include events never before anticipated (ie a malfunctioning sensor, yet the fix, 737Max, was to install the optional 2nd sensor. So I ask, what if both sensors get clogged by flying ash?) I'm not a pilot. Don't waste your time on me, but I was a computer programmer, and a darn good one. I agree with U MM3K. Another fix is maybe those 2 knobs shouldn't have the same shape.
@@cliffontheroad
In the Airbus A320 pilot commands usually always override the autopilot, although the autopilot will try to stabilise the aircraft and keep it in the air (unless counteracted by the pilot). Which means that some pilots have still managed to stall these aircraft.
Does anyone remember when pilots actually flew the plane, rather than trying to manage the computer that's flying the plane ?
It's same as new motor vehicle which is controlled by Computer.ABS,ECU,EBD, power steering, Power brake, throttle by wire etc.
Same time when more planes crashed and more people died?
@@rejuvenatingsoul3498 Actually it quite opposite.The incident and fatality rate reduced considerably.
Yep and everyone died for stupid reasons all the time. It was terrible and we should never go back.
Very illustrative and informative. Clearly explains the events leading upto the crash, while i agree with the crash report on most parts, i would also take into account the second point raised by the pilots association, the plane should give the power increase, if the pilots asked for it. In the end, the passengers and plane is the accountability of the pilot when its on the move...
I recall this accident vividly. The most plausible theory in the aftermath of the incident was that the pilots, despite their realisation of a potential threat, in the last crucial minutes before touchdown, were unable to initiate a TOGA in this uber-ultra-modern A320 for a (certain unforgivable) reason. It being........the computer managed flts inputs. The manual intervention to power up the engines were unresponsive as the craft was obeying the other 'Digital Master'!
Even the over-ride option wen opted, wud not kick-in within reasonable time, as there was considerable time-lag and this lag made the difference to life/death. The CVR had clearly confirmd the desperate calls by the pilots to pull-up, alas in vain ! Their throttle input was totally ignored by the Computerised flt. protocol. Its a case of Man-machine compatibility!
............rather incompatibility!
This is what happens when pilots rely on the plane too much... These aren't even planes anymore, they are just flying computers
The A 320 and it’s modes really have to be understood by the crews before getting to fly this thing. Maybe developing countries should stay with the competition. Anyway, activate TOGA mode in time I guess.
You ignore the fact that both pilots have over a thousand hrs under their collective belts. Indians are not the only pilots who make mistakes (and I make NO excuse for their lack of cockpit management, or lack of instinct - shameful, in fact), but your flippant and condescending observation that "Maybe developing countries should stay with the competition" implies that you believe Indians and others of their ilk are intellectually inferior.
That's racist, ignorant and full of horseshit. Indians have a stellar track record of expertise in science and technology.
By the way, If they had the time and presence for TOGA, they could also have exercised simpler options to secure the approach.
What nonsense. This has nothing to do with the economic state of the nation, and everything to do with pilot error. Does the US not have plane crashes ever? By your logic, all advanced aircraft piloted by Indians should have crashed.
Brilliant explanation 👏 I remember this making big news back in the day, tarnishing the new A320 brand. A tragic loss of lives.
It's unbelievable the pilots didn't push the throttles sooner. It looks like a cover up too! Great job on the video!!