Your interaction with myths are so much more useful and healthier for society than those people. I appreciate your platform, and always look forward to your output.
There is so much here to admire. My only complaint is the implication that myth is something only dead or backward people rely on. Modern life is full of myths: the self-reliant loner, the underdog hero, the champion of the downtrodden, the self-made man. The mantle of such myths is often donned by epically cynical opportunists, most notoriously of late in recent US politics. You might say that by the presented definitions these are legends and folklore, not being supernatural, but to me the important distinction is whether a story organizes people's perception of their world. Certainly the ancients made no distinction between natural and supernatural.
@@Akio-fy7ep Very good points. I'll address each sentence and would like your comments (if you are willing!). Note that after this list (1...6), there are extra bits to consider. 1-2 ... 3: Agreed! 4: US politics ... like talking with about a flat Earther about anything. 5: Hmmm...something to talk about. Not disagreeing, just not sure what is what. 6: "Certainly the ancients made no distinction between natural and supernatural." There's a distinction between what they thought and what they knew to think about. The word 'natural' is a common word and fits what we can talk about. The word 'supernatural' means very little. It fills in gaps where people have an idea about what is real and what is felt to be also true...yet has no common support. ------- The way I look at myth is like this; * A myth is a cultural truth. Outside of the specific culture, or even of the same culture outside a specific time, the 'myth' may not be seen as 'true'. There are many examples of self-serving myths being imposed to support one group or another. Ex: See rules on how slaves and prisoners of war were handled **BY** different cultures. If a myth is 'true', it is satisfying enough to drive a culture one way or another, or to encourage peer pressure to 'make' the 'truth' the 'right' way of doing things. Truth in this sense is close or identical to propaganda, for example the 'modesty of women' being a 'virtue', or the 'destiny' that is 'manifest' in making a continent a single sovereign unit regardless of those that are already there; an idea that ranged from Genghis Khan's rule (Asia: East to West), to Russian expansion (West to East), and in English texts mostly discussed as North America (USA: East to West; an explicit 'manifest destiny').
@@Akio-fy7ep "There is so much here to admire." I am not a mind reader, though the core sentiment of what you wrote caused me to smile. If someone snarks at this idea, they have quite a bit of explaining to do as it's clear to me that you're right and the admiration is well deserved.
@@user-wr4uz8pg7m Nope. The "interesting times" one is popularly identified as being from China, but the oldest certain source seems to be late 19th century; it definitely predates Pratchet.
You mentioned you would like me to expand a little on what I meant in the chat. Here it (briefly) is: As you mentioned, there may have been a paradise-like place where an encounter with a snake occurred. The people involved likely attributed meaning to the event, as ancient humans often did. Over time, they shared these stories with their children, who passed them down through generations. Gradually, these tales became part of the "collective consciousness" (as described by Carl Jung) of their tribes, with layers of meaning added and the story further expanded. Over countless generations, these stories transformed into powerful spiritual allegories. This is what I mean when I say, "True stories became allegories."
This makes more sense, but just passing a story down would not ingrain it in the culture, it would soon get lost unless ritual also enactedit , meaning they would leave a trace that could be tangible on top of "collective concious". I'm not saying your thoughts couldn't have happened, but I've not seen enough evidence to convince me.
@@Crecganford I left that part out... Accordingly the myth was passed on orally and it was often preserved and recreated through songs or religious rituals. The Vedas, for instance, were memorized and only written down millennia later when writing became a convenient medium. Consider the Native Americans, separated from another continant for 20,000 years. And they still retained mythos found found in Africa, Europe, etc. With no knowlege of writing, they carried forward the flood myths, emergence myths, etc. INCREDIBLE! For millennia, the Black Lemba tribe maintained a belief in their Jewish Cohen heritage, a claim carried through myth and tradition for millennia. This claim was largely dismissed until Professor Parfitt tested their DNA and discovered their haplotype. The 'Lemba Cohanim haplotype' refers to a specific genetic marker found on the Y chromosome of some Lemba people, a southern African ethnic group. This marker closely resembles the 'Cohen modal haplotype,' which is commonly found among Jewish men who claim descent from the priestly Cohen lineage. Carl Jung spoke of the 'Collective Unconscious," which might be the fertile ground in our minds where mythos and archetypes take shape. Folk memory is truly remarkable in its ability to preserve and transmit such profound elements of human history and belief.
That’s one way of thinking about it but these stories have evolved so much over time it seems pointless to say any one root cause is valid. I can think of hundreds of “truths” the garden of Eden story could represent. Just think of Robin Hood in the U.K. it’s a story that is mythical but most likely has no basis in real life events. There may be hundreds of stories that all started with a truth or a lie that amalgamated into the story we know.
@@Theactivepsychos Myths are like languages -- although they are vastly different they contain enough simularities to suggest an original source. Scholars can trace language familiy trees; And we can trace Mythos family trees.
I LOVED it! Please make more, this was excellent !!! One plea though - please always post it on youtube afterwards with auto subtitles enabled. I am not sure if they support subtitles on live streams, but I always watch with them afterwards to allow it to process it properly and generate subtitles (I am wearing hearing aids). A suggestion for a future video you've touched very briefly with thanksgiving/rituals. Could we perhaps talk about our knowledge cuisine/meal and myth connections with more depth and detail? I think I have already asked here before if someone is doing a similar study as you do - but for specific dishes, methods of preparation and the spread across cultures. Maybe also talk about dances, music/sounds or other ritual actions that have connections with (or are reenactments of) Myths, their meanings/transformations and evolution.
FYI the subtitles ,here ,are not too good, I suspect AI .It has trouble with |academic language and Jon! Not being mean .still ok. There would be a transcript?
Misunderstanding myth must have been a constant part of the history of myth. Surely, stories don't get shared and adapted across cultures and time without being misunderstood a little at each step on the way.
I would agree with you. Take a look at Buddhism and how it has sprawled into a tapestry of varying traditions and interpretations over the centuries as it has made its way through and been retold and reinterpreted in different cultures.
@@Crecganford isn't that what Hancock and Peterson are doing aswell? Their way of being in and looking at the world shapes their interpertation on the myths.
I was wondering if you had noticed any herbal knowledge within folktales as storytelling would be a good way of passing on knowledge? In the story of Rapunzel, her mother is having problems in pregnancy and needs a plant from the 'witch'. Rapunzel is a German name for the Evening Primrose plant, it has a long stalk with flowers all the way up, that open at night (long hair dangling from the tower)and traditionally the oil of which is reccomended for PMS, menopause and softening the cervix at childbirth. Although there is no or little scientific evidence for these claims it still appears to be used a lot. I could see a Christian compiler of folkfore not knowing the 'truth' behind the story and garbling it somehow. During times of inquisition and religious purging it might be wise to hide herbal knowledge. Just a thought I had. Thanks
Watched this when it came out yesterday. Never really knew anything about Jordan Peterson. Woke up today with a recommendation for a debate between jordan peterson and sam harris… thanks a lot Crecganford 😂
@ lol no worries at all i was jk it was still worth it. This video only made me like your channel even more if anything. It was actually pretty interesting though. Sam seems like an intelligent guy I wasn’t very familiar with him either. Funny timing tho. Flint dibble’s response to joe rogan was right underneath too so i think my algorithm is still intact 🤣 appreciate your videos as always
People who say "why would the Apostles have died for a lie" don't go on to become Mormons when it is pointed out to them that Joseph Smith was martyred for his beliefs.
Totally different contexts. The apostles died having opportunities to recant their positions. They died nobly, and in often slow, torturous conditions. Never once did they come close to denying Christ. Contrast this with Joseph and Hyrum Smith, who had no idea they were going to die until the last couple minutes before. Hyrum grabbed his pistol and tried to kill others in the mob after shouting “I’m a dead man!” In anger and fear, while Joseph Smith tried to escape from a window but was shot anyways. Not to mention the guys declared “martial law” in the state of Illinois for what they considered “false imprisonment”. That does not sound like people “ready to die” for their beliefs. Quite simply they didn’t think they would.
@@victorianreactionary1875 We have no reliable records that any apostle except Peter died a martyr's death. We have a lot of tales from later on, but we've also got accounts of Jesus turning mud ducks into real ducks (on the Sabbath!) and Thomas going to India. Hell, we don't even know who the apostles were - the gospels give different accounts. So I agree that Joseph Smith was not a prophet but unless you can present reliable contemporary evidence I won't believe your claim that the apostles were martyred and were given the chance to recant.
Have you ever thought of trying to get on Alex O'Conner's podcast "Within Reason?" I bet the two of you could have an engaging conversation about religious mythology!
Anyone who speaks truth to misinformation lords like Peterson has my respect! I have no problem being derogatory when it comes highly problematic and corrosive individuals like JP.
Petersen seems to think that just because he is a proficient Psychiatrist it gives him the proficiency in everything. I love his dicussion with Slavoj Zizek about communism. Slavoj says "We need to respect Dr. Petersen for his accomplishments in field of Psychiatry and for undoubtedly helping people" then proceeds to explain to Petersen, in detail, that his arguments are myopic.
I’ve loved your videos for so long, it is so nice to see these words put out directly by you on these people. They’ve done their best to destroy, warp, and rewrite history and myths, and it’s a huge disservice to the world. Love you man, you’re what I aspire to be as a historian and researcher.
I am a fan of Dr. Peterson and Hancock. I truly appreciate your respect towards these individuals and this discussion gave me much to think about. I think Hancocks main issue is his hyperbole, but as you complimented Hancock is a fantastic story teller. The main trait of Hancock I love is asking questions no matter how absurd and really he is illuminating the collective unconscious of the family of humanity. Dr. Peterson well... thats a bag I dont have time to write about. All I can say Dr. Peterson has chanegd my life and acutually showed me the door of the esoteric and Im down the rabbit hole. I do appreciate your thoughts on Dr. Petersons contrasting starements. Now Dr. Peterson has done a beautiful job highlighting the psychological significance of the Bibical stories. However, regarding his statement with the virgin birth, perhaps Dr. Peterson has partaked in occult studies (which I strongly believe he has for the knowledge he has), and for this knowledge, you may not share everything you are told because most are not ready for the knowledge. Just a thought, I could be totally off on that. You gained a subscriber. I have taken an interest in Egyptian mythology and Celtic mythology I believe I found the place to learn! Thank you again for the wonderful video and blessings upon you!
Hi Jon, I just finished watching the stream. I’m doing a MA in Theology and I'm nearly done with my thesis on the history of allegorical interpretation and its use in Philo of Alexandria's writings. My main question is whether allegory was intended by the original authors of myths (Homer, the Homeridae, or biblical authors in the OT and NT). Through reading numerous academic books and articles, I’ve discovered that, in the West, allegorical readings may have started with Theagenes of Rhegium, about a century after the Homeric myths were composed. He argued that the myths about the gods were not meant to be understood literally, countering the criticisms of figures like Heraclitus and other philosophers. From there, allegorical reading developed further, with different philosophical schools adopting it, first the Stoics and later the Middle and Neoplatonists. Plato himself, as you likely know, was ambivalent about myth: he critiqued existing myths but also supported creating new ones. However, his later followers had no issue reconciling him with Homer, claiming that both taught the same truths. These philosophers believed in an ancient chain of wise men passing down metaphysical truths. For the Stoics, this idea tied into their belief that the Pneuma or Logos governs all things. They argued that the poets who composed myths were inspired by this divine Logos, embedding metaphysical truths within their works. Philo of Alexandria adopted these approaches, applying them to the Old Testament. As a Middle Platonist, Philo was deeply influenced by other schools, particularly Stoicism. When you read his interpretations, it’s clear that he imposes Platonism’s metaphysical ideas onto the text, much like his philosophical predecessors did with Homeric myths. I agree with you most of the OT is mythological, serving as a foundation myth (to simplify, as I can’t delve into details here, much of the OT focuses on constructing a national identity that could survive exile). The NT is different, depends on which Book you’re reading, but it also contains myth. To answer your question regarding the sacredness, it isn’t inherent but arises from the reception of the readers and listeners, as they are the ones who grant these myths their sacredness. I’m coming to the conclusion that allegorical interpretation emerged because of the imposed sacredness of these myths, serving as a way to preserve their cultural relevance. That said, I suspect there is also a pedagogical aspect to myths, I'm thinking about the Homeric ones. Perhaps you can share your insights on this? Sorry for the long Comment.
Thanks for the great comment, although to reply fully would be a challenge here I would say yes, as we the civilized world become historic, the perception of myths changed, and allegorical stories were also written and survived. Now you could argue that allgorical stories were told for thousands of years but didn't survive because they lacked sacredness and ritual that would engrain them in society leaving us with a perception of a late adoption. Equaly new myths were not being written as sacredness of the world was being questioned and history was taking over. But to understand what came first, and why, would be challenging and I wish you luck in your thesis.
I'm wondering about the part when the people in Europe, in the north for example, believed the story that they "were uncultured barbarians" in the past in order to then latch onto the discoveries of texts that they believed proved they had not been the so-called barbarians and did have culture. I mean, was that doubt in their history going back to growth of Christianity, or plagues, or Roman Empire, or Greek influence? What was it that first set them up to believe the barabarian account that they could rediscover their own culture and then be vulnerable to those persons giving their own political spin on the myths?
As I said, this is a huge topic and worthy of a book, and there would be many influences in this, as whilst cultures tend to grow and develop, climate changes, wars, and convertions would all have an impact of what would be remembered. But terms of Scandinavia I think Christian conversion had a large part to play in the forgetting of their past.
Kings of Sweden for example titled themselves as king of Goths/Visigoths/Vandals etc. Polish people, Lithuanians and Ruthenians, proudly (but not very historically accurate) identified collectively as the descendants of Sarmatians during 1400-1800, they did not think about them as some Barbarians, they made up the stories about facing Alexander the great or winning over Roman invaders. Polish and Lithuanian Commonwealth viewed itself as the succesor of Rome's Republic in contrary to neigbouring HRE (Neither holy, neither Roman, neither empire ;), but we can find depiction of eg. Jan III Sobieski - Commonwealth's king as Roman cesar as well as Sarmatian warrior. Im sure that there are more examples of people being rather proud then ashamed of their early medieval ancestry.
@@karanseraph that's a loaded question. Nobody ever considered themselves to be uncivilized barbarians and christianization did not just wipe everything out but intermingled with the religious practices of the area. Streams and springs dedicated to gods or nature spirits became associated with saints, holy places like special hills and woods had churches build on/in them, feasts and rituals were adopted into christianity like decorating trees in December to supposedly celebrate the birth of Jesus who in the story was clearly born in spring. They didn't lose their shipbuilding or raiding. Skalds still existed until the Late Middle Ages. Flyting remained popular up to the 16th century. Look at the names of the days we still use. Tyr's day, Wodan's day, Thor's day, Freyr's day. The Sami weren't fully christianized until the 18th century. What culture was gone here exactly?
Always interesting. I'm personally not keen on the term 'mythemes' because it comes from Dawkins's use of memes which I don't find useful at all. From a structuralist perspective, myths exist as paradigmatic sets. Within a set, items are able to be replaced without changing the structure e.g. a red hood with a blue cloak- both would be seen as occupying the same place in a set. I think Peterson believes the structure of myths come from archetypes. Peterson differs a bit from Jung. They both see archetypes as embedded in and directing behaviour but Peterson goes further and sees them as arising from the structure of the universe itself i.e. they have a material existence in physics. When asked about whether or not events truly happened, he sometimes says that they have always happened and are still happening. This reveals their reality as playing out archetypes. maybe, that's my understanding at the moment!
To be honest, because of his conflicting statements, I'm not too sure of where Peterson's beliefs specifically lay and how his thoughts have changed. I'm half expecting him to write a book of poetry soon in a way to be even less clear on his views. But this association with the universe itself I haven't picked up on, when I get time I shall watch some more of his talks to find out more about why he thinks like this.
@@Crecganford I think he explains this in an interview with the young Sceptic, Alex Connor. I'll see if I can link to it later this week. . Speaking of books, have you any plans for one?
I do not think that Jung's view on archetypes differed from that particular point, actually, I do not know about anybody who claims that archetypes have material existence in physics. My goal is not argueing for Peterson, but when he is asked about whether or not events truly happened, by answering "that they have always happened and are still happening" he clearly suggests that archetypical stories are not embodied in material world of chronological causes and effect. If you would ask Jung if Jesus truly existed in ancient Judea, I believe he could answer very similarly, he could say that Jesus is an archetypical expression of self and the self is prior to any individual experiences. Archetypes are potentialities. While they may manifest because of evolutionary pressures, It's hard to say if we discover them or invent them to cope with reality, are numbers discovered or invented, It's pretty simillar question, but thats only my view, Im open to learn.
Wonderful show, and I think you are right, I subscribe to the idea that history, while its patterns and the laws of causality that orchestrate it are deterministic, it (history) is also highly sensitive to initial conditions, that history would diverge rapidly from slightly different conditions, making it unpredictable.
You can make playlists of themes here on YT-easier than going over to look at an index, but both would be good. And I get you meant ‘current’ politics, but I think mythology is linked inevitably with politics-and has been a tool of it for a very long time.✌️♥️
Oh this is gonna be bliss. .. aw crap, first ever live stream?. I'm truly sorry I missed it. I mean, I know you dunno me but I'm rather fond of your work.
@Crecganford Mm-hm, I thought so too. I rather like the longer format as such gives you meandering room & encourages our interaction. If you do one next month, roughly when would you expect to start?
I I'm not a Christian and I do not particularly like the approach of Jordan Peterson. However on this occasion I did not find your criticisms compelling. The Old testament myths contain of course elements from other mythologies, reworked into a somewhat different form which the people of that culture found resonant. It seemed to them to tell deep truths about God and his purposes for the world. Any new myth will make use of previous ones it does not invalidate it. Just as a modern fantasy writer will use ancient themes to create something new and compelling. Of course if you take it literally that is a problem. But this is largely a modern problem. To be sure it's not clear where Peterson stands on that, so it is hard to criticise him but you are right to point out that he seems confused in that area...
I can't wait for your next vid on "why dragons breath fire"... I have an interesting model of understanding and comprehension on what the key elements in myths could actually be. Best of all, it unifies most, if not all the stories that align across the globe. My model also couples both the physical and spiritual realms by explaining it through physical observations and known observable facts. I hope your next video aligns with my model.
I'd like to talk him, privately or for the internet to see. He made an interesting video about Hancock the other day and I wish he knew about the mythology database which would have allowed him to answer some of Graham's thoughts more directly.
i begrudgingly clicked this thinking those two were actually having a heady conversation…luckily for it hasn’t yet happened i will still click to check in with the speculative arena
Cooking a Turkey now and I'm feeling a bit under dressed. I feel as though I should be decked out in ancient Mayan clothing who had an adoration and husbandry of turkeys in their day to show my Thanks for this year's giving of absolute madness that is my country.
@@Crecganford It's alright Sir. Never apologies. It was a good gaff yesterday while making supper. I had sent this video to friends who've been reading Jordan Peterson. Bit of a tangent throughout but can try again when you have the time.
Listen to the Lex Fredman podcast where he implies that he expected humans to have had an advanced technological civilization at sometime before in it 300k year history.
Have you ever listened to the blindboy podcast? He has some interesting takes on how myth often carries meaning/wisdom of how to live within the environment of the host culture. I reckon you’d have some pretty interesting stuff to bring, if you had a chat.
Another point - it is easy to forget that the ancient world did not have the vast body of empirically established fact that we have, in science history geography botany and so many other subjects. Outside of a relatively small area of common sense fact based on everyday experience knowledge necessarily veered off quickly into the speculative and mythological because that was all there was. You know 'here be dragons on the map... ' So the issue of empirical fact vs imaginative truth although the Romans certainly did make it, was not nearly such a divisive crux issue for them. Because in so many areas , history for example, it was impossible to know what had really happened. And of course people experienced life in terms of the intervention of the gods even if they didn't actually see them, so there again the issue of literal truth vs myth just did not arise...
Interesting and useful framework of myths. The definition we had in communications was different- and I'm assuming closer to Peterson's. ( I don't remember whose def. it was) Along the lines of " narrative, regardless of truth or claims to it, which affects people's perception, ideology or behaviour" As such Darwinism and the big bang are also creation myths, as much as Santa Claus, and trickledown economics are myths, or 'a friend in need is afriend indeed'.. Red riding hood wouldn't be. (Interesting that, say, Snow white and red riding hood have different categories in your scheme simply because of the characters in them)
20:20 Interesting. If you look into the Chinese historiography tradition, what it aiming for is precisely to connect these "seperate circles". Probably in all the areas you listed.
If you ever talk to Jonathan Pageau, keep in mind he is a non-Cartesian and like you explained how human sacrifice was practiced as an enactment of the myth. He literally thinks that way, that the structure of the world is fractal and the overarching structure reflects the smaller structures within it and vice versa.That's why his propositions seem strange to many people, he is not trying to reconstruct the old world view but he's implying that that's how the world truly works.
Come ON... Of COURSE you've got to have a direct discussion with Peterson. Have it facilitated and moderated by O'Connor or Pangburn or Derek Lambert if Peterson thinks that you're not a big enough name for him to further his "career" through.
Peterson can't openly admit that certain things in the Bible are not literally true because then he would lose a considerable segment of the admirers he has painstakingly won over from the political right.
Why dont progressives such as yourself actually read the Bible? You do realize the old and new testaments are filled with parables...? Stories within scripture...
Unfortunately, these days Peterson says alot without actually saying anything. I think he started out great, standing up to outright bullying around the use of language, but he has turned into a corporate and empty brand now.
Watch his podcast wtih Dawkins. I'm not sure how your comment reflects what Peterson says in that interview. On the contrary, Peterson does not care whether for example Cain or Abel actually existed, he just thinks it's a good story from which you can learn a lesson.
Good evening, Crecganford. 1:13:40 As someone who's found fire, like lightning, to often show up as a symbolic representation of "Life Force," I'm curious what your perspective on this is going to be. As for this video, interesting work, as ever. Best to you and your loved ones.
@@taliakelly554 We're on roughly the same page. Only thing I can't figure out, then, is why people/creatures in fiction/mythology would willingly fire this stuff out of their bodies...whether it be monks blasting Chi, or dragons exhaling fire.
@@kholsinger prehaps they have too much. too much fire will consume all it's fuel and oxygen and snuff it's self out. humans spread fire to it goin, also fire is like breath, it take in oxygen and giveout co2, so maybe monks reach a point in meditation with their breath that it can become fire, and they need to breath it out like we breath out our breath after it's given us oxygen
I really dislike Jordan Peterson's psychoanalysis of myth and religion. It tells me nothing about what the creators meant, only something about what Peterson thinks of the stories.
Perhaps that's because Peterson was a clinical psychologist when he started whatever it is he's doing. His goal is to help people with mental issues to get a grip on their life and change it for the better. You don't listen to Peterson because you want to learn everything there is to know about myth and religion but because there's something wrong in your life.
I am like many other people, in that I am a fan of Petersons "early" work. He has absolutely gone off the rails since becoming hyper-internet-famous and the various troubles. But his biblical lecture series and the general ideas that he has put forward that religion and religious stories is not only 'some mythology' but an intrinsic part our evolution that has not only informed us but also formed us, was an absolute breath of fresh air to a huge amount of people, and re-invigorated peoples interest and appreciation of mythology and our ancestors. I think you are doing him a massive disservice by putting him in the same bucket as O'Connor (two bit student university philosopher who doesn't even investigate his own language games), Hancock (alt history book seller), Dawkins (?? what does he have do with mythology) and the other guy who I don't have any knowledge of. I'm sorry I have to spell it out to people but peterson is a modern mythological figure who has pushed forward ideas that have influenced an enourmous amount of people. You can deride his self-help books and his twitter demeanour but it's pretty undeniable that he has been, while very imperfect, at the forefront of constructing new myths, based on old myths.
Peterson, although he started great and gave some much needed practical wisdom that helped alot of disillusioned and unhappy men, young and old, he and also bravely resisted authoritarian speech rules. He has unfortunately gone down the route of destruction... He is focused on being a brand now and is ideologically captured (And I am conservative), I also think the fame and notoriety has sent him a little loopy.
I agree, fame did not help him. Not just the fame but the deluge of attacks and efforts to discredit him, hit pieces etc. At the scale and speed it happened (both the fame and the attacks) it would be hard not be affected and he was, retreating or doubling down into somewhat of a caricature or brand. I hold out a bit of hope he might produce some more interesting work in the future but who knows.
@@taliakelly554 you're welcome to your opinion ofc, but if you haven't watched the lectures and the content he was making 2018 and earlier I would say take another look. No-one is perfect but that doesn't mean you can find value in some parts of what they say. Probably calling him a mythological figure himself is hyperbole but it's absolutely undeniable he has had a massive influence and impact on culture, far far more than the other people mentioned in the video.
If you ever do write a book on the history of the study of mythology I’d be a very happy reader!!! I appreciate you using your expertise to correct some of what these people are saying I don’t listen to Peterson but from my experience in evangelical christianity I strongly suspect his comments on Jesus’ passion and the hero’s journey tie into the notion of Jesus fulfilling various things. Originally it’s said Jesus fulfilled the law but people often borrow this pattern of reasoning and apply it to anything that they think highly of (or believe their listeners think highly of). At my church Harry Potter went from being banned because of witchcraft to highly praised as soon as someone drew parallels between Jesus and Harry and pointed out the utility of using the series as a tool for evangelism. Even if the word “fulfilled” isn’t used, drawing parallels in this way is often used as a form of proof or persuasion. The hero’s journey is actually a common example! Jesus is obviously the ultimate, perfect hero and every story following this pattern is actually an expression of the human need to be saved by him. There’s a bit of dissonance involved in this imo. The Bible is worthy of belief because it’s completely unique, written by god, but it’s also worthy of belief because it echoes so many common human ideas or sentiments. As far as I can tell people use either form of reasoning based on convenience 🤷🏼♀️
Unfortunately, my impression of Peterson and Hancock is that they are two deeply arrogant individuals who have no interest in legitimately seeking the truth; therefore, the likelihood either of them would give you a second thought is slim to none.
@@pablopicaddo I don’t think Hancock is arrogant, I just think his beliefs are firmly rooted in his experiences with hallucinogens. He thinks the experiences were real and magical, though he wouldn’t use the term magic. And so he looks for everywhere there could be hidden magical explanations I think he’s completely wrong about 90% of what he says, but I don’t think he’s as arrogant as he sometimes comes off in clips.
Could it be that history turned into myth because the people involved were turned into gods by later generations? I am asking because I had read a book about the Bad Dürrenberg Shaman who clearly was worshipped centuries after her death. Could this be the way deities came into being?
Whilst this isn't true in all cases, there are specific examples where we see this happening, and if not gods, into saints and demi-gods. And in a way it is how the personified god, the "human shaped" god came to be.
No, please, short formats are for empty altercations: there is no time to go deeper into a topic with context and actually engage with real contents. It would be a waste of resources to create opposing fan bases. Jon's using a perfect format to give us a lot and his energies should continue to be invested into enriching whoever wants to get something from his efforts.
Regarding the dragon and the primordial fear of snakes, how does the myth of the dragon as a benevolent being come into this? I believe dragon myths started off with the dragon bringing rain, and only later branched off into fire-breathing menaces. Doesn't that invalidate the idea of dragons fundamentally being a manifestation of fear?
Yes, in terms of myths, early creation myths have the dragon being benevolent and I talk about this in my last video. But that doesn't stop us having a fear of snakes.
@@Crecganford I'm arguing against Peterson's Jungian view that the archetype of the dragon is essentially all the fears of a prehistoric human being rolled into a single mental form. You're right we still have a deep-seated fear for snakes and the like, but I believe the relation between that and dragons is not as intimate and subconsciously driven as he believes.
Yes, for sure, when he talks about dragons being female, because they are chaos, that's quite a statement which isn't backed up by a view across all of the world's mythology.
@@Crecganford He uses his own background and clinical experience to reinterpret religion and myth. That background and experience is in psychology, which is what he uses to back up his claims.
Peterson tends to concern himself more with moral and symbolic truths rather than historical truth. For him it seems like if there is a valuable lesson in a myth that makes people more prosperous, that makes the myth true rather or not the events of the myth actually happened. People often don't understand this and assume that for him to believe in the moral truths of a myth he must also believe the myths are true historically. This is where anti-Christian atheists fail to understand that Peterson is using biblical myths and legends as a teaching tool and rather or not he believes them as true historically are unimportant as far as their usefulness. With that said, I think because Peterson finds moral truth in biblical teachings he has also been more cautious about disregarding the more metaphysical aspects. His philosophy, which I agree with, is that if you don't approach the stories with great reverence you will not grasp all there is to learn from them nor take the lessons with the seriousness they deserve. I'm currently writing a mythological book, and if I approached myths with a dismissive attitude, I will fail to understand their cultural importance to the people who knew them and therefore would be dismissive of the people who held them with importance. This inability to approach other people with such understanding is one reason conflict in history is so prevalent.
What do you think of the creature or character Sasquatch? Do you think it’s a mythical creature or do you think it could potentially be real? Especially considering the ancient ape Gigantopithecus I think it could be real.
For me, it is unlikely to be real, as with most amazing cryptids the better our technology gets for recording their existence the less "sightings" there seem to be.
Peterson is second only to Deepak Chopra in his ability to say a lot of eords that mean nothing. The fact that anyone still takes him serioisly is beyond me. Also, he's a sellout peddling hate, fear, and misinformation for moneu from oil billionares and that shouldn't be ignored either.
You seem to be missing at least 2 really important pieces of knowledge about myths that would change the way you understand them: how prehistoric people used myth to pass information across time, and what each myth MEANS. They go hand in hand. If you understand myths as information relay systems, then you understand there are layers of knowledge encoded inside. When you know how to decode myths, you realize all myths had an entry level “This is how we survive, where to find resources, our morality, how to get along, etc.” layer. AND a higher level meant to raise our consciousness. We’ve lost much of the entry level except for morality and how to get along ie: fairy tales and religion. But most importantly we’ve lost the hidden higher level meanings that help us become self-aware, conscious beings. And it’s because we changed our myths. I’ve been working on this for years. Now working on videos to explain.
I think that when Jordan mentions something about the mother/infant dyad as sacred and cultures without that belief dying out, he's expressing more of a truism. We know that such a view is generally held worldwide and so it speaks primarily to a truism about human societies (with the important caveat that this often does not extend beyond kith and kin historically). I don't know if it would be useful to read into it much more than that. That said, Jordan reads into everything plenty, so it wouldn't be quite fair to ask anyone else not to.
as a fan of both peterson and crecganford i've waited a while for something like this (hancock is a bit out there, even for me). unfortunately i'm left somewhat disappointed by the treatment of peterson's work here because i don't think it addresses the key point he's trying to make. for example, you may be able to decompose the story of the snake in the garden to two previous stories but of the infinite stories that could have been told the people who wrote the old testament believed they were important enough to put right at the beginning, and the fact that they've been carried from africa and beyond over however long is further testament of their importance to the carriers. it takes effort to commit things to memory so you only remember the most important ones. there's also the issue of using science per-se. the scientific method has only existed since c1600 so inferring anything scientific in anything recorded before that is tenuous at best. i often work with medical data and that data is not collected for the purpose of me doing science on it, it is recorded for book keeping and statutory requirements. a change or spike in my data could easily be due to a change in recording methodology, not the underlying territory changing. we must always be cautious of this effect when looking at material that was not recorded for the express purpose of keeping an accurate record of events, and even this concept does not (can not) exist before the formulation of the scientific method.
I have made a video specifically taking Genesis apart, the whole of the start of it. But my point was can a story that is borrowed be considered true or sacred? But do you not feel Peterson's narrative around the Passion of Jesus is not without concern. Not saying something could be true to Dawkins, yet implying it is to Pageau, whilst at the same time implying the Passion is a Hero's Journey and so fiction. These, to me, seem like basic and fuindamental issues that should be addressed before taking apart the detail.
@@Crecganford Thanks for the reply. I suppose (and to quote a Peterson meme) it depends what you mean by sacred, and I think that really gets to the crux of the discussion. I hate arguing over definitions but it's worth at least defining our terms. If your standard for sacred is something like "derived from an extra-natural source", spoken into a prophet's ear by a supernatural being or whatever process you prefer, then I will struggle to be convinced that any story is sacred and so the category of sacred story is meaningless. If your definition is something more like "given central importance to the society that recorded it" then I think we can have a more interesting conversation. There's the idea that a tradition is a solution to a problem a society forgot it had, and there's probably some basis for the sacred there too. There's also the question of what you mean by true, and there are different standards for truth. You can take an empirical basis of truth and say was there a garden called exactly Eden with an actual snake and an actual apple, or you can take a more phenomenological basis and these stories to me are more phenomological than empirical. This was my point about science. Unless you're doing science there's not much utility in recording things empirically, so they can't be treated as empirical record. Much better to take some short cuts, merges, reframes etc, to keep the knowledge useful (there's no point telling a story about a bear if noone in your culture has ever seen one). I've followed Peterson less as he became more involved with the Daily Wire / Ben Shapiro etc so I'm less familiar with his more recent view on the passion as a hero's journey, but the idea that the hero is the one who willingly takes on the biggest challenge they can even if it kills them (of which Jesus dying for the sins of humanity is the apogee), is fine with me and if a few more people took on these kind of challenges the world would be a better place. I find Peterson's more recent reluctance to address phenomological vs empirical directly somewhat frustrating, especially as he didn't seem to have any problems doing so in his earlier lectures. I expect is due to his recent D/W association though his recent health issues may have shifted his perspective a little. As an aside, I'm interested to know if you're familiar with the work of Lynne Isbell, specifically her book "The Fruit, the Tree, and the Serpent: Why We See So Well". I'd be interested to hear your response to her ideas.
I would love to see a chat betwen you and Peterson, or between you and Graham on these topics. A conversation where there is some back and forth is quite useful to discern where the truth lies. I would definitely watch/listen.
@@AuntyKsTarot Flint Dibble actually lied in his debate. Do a bit more research about this. Joe Rogan and Graham Hancock amongst others talked about this multiple times. Look, I don't care much about Hancock and his lost civilisation, he does not have evidence for this, as he stated that multiple times.
1:05:31 also, dragons? The real myth is that dinosaurs were discovered by the victorians (or whatever) If fossils have existed since the dawn of man, we can surely assume that some were found a long time before writing; Dragons and dinosaurs are not really different, except for the mythology around them
@@Crecganford "Troy" was considered largely mythical for a long time, just until recently has it been excepted by archaeological evidence. It was folks in your field of study saying this. Historians used to believe the city of Troy was just a legend. However, the general consensus now is that it existed. What other examples are there of once-thought "mythical" phenomena being found to be historical? Should I start pointing fingers too? What does these two individuals have to do with You, or should I call this Click Bait, their names are more well known than yours I would believe. It is not my fault you do not have the ears to hear the stars and constellations speak, and You know what I'll talking about, I've left many comments revealing how the Gold and Silver Gates can speak playing their names in reverse. They say that the Underworld is Real, So I'll take your above statement with a grain of salt, because I say Demigods are real, and the Jesus dude was just another Pig like Damu "The Child", maybe even from the lost city of Atlantis ha ha ha
I have a question regarding your response to JP claim that "all I know is that cultures that don't hold the image of a sacred virgin die". You said that, it's an unprovable claim as cultures that did hold this image, were purged by force by christianity. Yet, firstly, it is not true that christianity only got rid of those cultures by force - for example noone made Constantine the grate become christian by force, nor did anyone made Franks nor Saxons Christians by force. Chlodwig took baptism by his own will, so it is not entirely true that all such cultures were purged by force. Secondly, there are cultures that still exist, have never been purched by Christianity, and also hold a special place for virgitnity like Chinese or Hindu. So here comes my question : Do we know a culture that does not place significance on virginity at all and still exists? It is not to claim that JP is right, it is to find out if this particular statement is true. Does your database show that virginity myths are common around the world? Or maybe not?
Go to any non-Abrahamic religion, there you will see tradition that does not hold mother and child in the same rank, because the child isn't considered a "son of god". The birth of Jesus of a virgin, by god is an exact copy of many Greek myths... e.g. Zeus taking Callisto to birth Arcos and creating the "Cosmic Hunt" a story many conclude to be tens of thousand of years old. The bottom line is that the NT, predominantly written by those educated in the Greek myths, is significantly influenced by other traditions.
I think Petersons take on myth is interesting, but its from an evolutionary psych perspective and not a more specific mythological or general perspective. Peterson probably isnt wrong, hes just right in a way that isnt very useful.
This has got to be one of the most engaging channels on TH-cam
Thank you for those kind words.
Your interaction with myths are so much more useful and healthier for society than those people. I appreciate your platform, and always look forward to your output.
Thank you.
There is so much here to admire. My only complaint is the implication that myth is something only dead or backward people rely on. Modern life is full of myths: the self-reliant loner, the underdog hero, the champion of the downtrodden, the self-made man. The mantle of such myths is often donned by epically cynical opportunists, most notoriously of late in recent US politics. You might say that by the presented definitions these are legends and folklore, not being supernatural, but to me the important distinction is whether a story organizes people's perception of their world. Certainly the ancients made no distinction between natural and supernatural.
@@Akio-fy7ep
Very good points. I'll address each sentence and would like your comments (if you are willing!). Note that after this list (1...6), there are extra bits to consider.
1-2 ... 3: Agreed!
4: US politics ... like talking with about a flat Earther about anything.
5: Hmmm...something to talk about. Not disagreeing, just not sure what is what.
6: "Certainly the ancients made no distinction between natural and supernatural." There's a distinction between what they thought and what they knew to think about.
The word 'natural' is a common word and fits what we can talk about. The word 'supernatural' means very little. It fills in gaps where people have an idea about what is real and what is felt to be also true...yet has no common support.
-------
The way I look at myth is like this;
* A myth is a cultural truth.
Outside of the specific culture, or even of the same culture outside a specific time, the 'myth' may not be seen as 'true'. There are many examples of self-serving myths being imposed to support one group or another. Ex: See rules on how slaves and prisoners of war were handled **BY** different cultures.
If a myth is 'true', it is satisfying enough to drive a culture one way or another, or to encourage peer pressure to 'make' the 'truth' the 'right' way of doing things.
Truth in this sense is close or identical to propaganda, for example the 'modesty of women' being a 'virtue', or the 'destiny' that is 'manifest' in making a continent a single sovereign unit regardless of those that are already there; an idea that ranged from Genghis Khan's rule (Asia: East to West), to Russian expansion (West to East), and in English texts mostly discussed as North America (USA: East to West; an explicit 'manifest destiny').
@@Akio-fy7ep "There is so much here to admire."
I am not a mind reader, though the core sentiment of what you wrote caused me to smile. If someone snarks at this idea, they have quite a bit of explaining to do as it's clear to me that you're right and the admiration is well deserved.
Who are "those people" you refer to?
I would absolutely adore a video on how to use the myth database!
There is a short video on the database site, but I will make a better one in the new year after I realease the next major change to the database.
Wonderful video brother ❤
Thanks Derek, I thought I rasied some good points about Peterson's view, happy if you want to take them and do something with them.
"there is a curse, may you live in interesting times" Terry Pratchet
May you live in interesting times.
May you come to the attention of powerful people.
May you find what you are looking for.
The classic three curses.
Be careful what you wish for is another.😊
I assumed that was a compliment.
Terry Pratchet is the original source of that quote?
@@user-wr4uz8pg7m Nope. The "interesting times" one is popularly identified as being from China, but the oldest certain source seems to be late 19th century; it definitely predates Pratchet.
Thank you so much for this.
And thank you for watching.
What a wonderfully specific and necessary topic. Fantastic
Thank you.
You mentioned you would like me to expand a little on what I meant in the chat. Here it (briefly) is:
As you mentioned, there may have been a paradise-like place where an encounter with a snake occurred. The people involved likely attributed meaning to the event, as ancient humans often did. Over time, they shared these stories with their children, who passed them down through generations. Gradually, these tales became part of the "collective consciousness" (as described by Carl Jung) of their tribes, with layers of meaning added and the story further expanded. Over countless generations, these stories transformed into powerful spiritual allegories. This is what I mean when I say, "True stories became allegories."
This makes more sense, but just passing a story down would not ingrain it in the culture, it would soon get lost unless ritual also enactedit , meaning they would leave a trace that could be tangible on top of "collective concious". I'm not saying your thoughts couldn't have happened, but I've not seen enough evidence to convince me.
@Crecganford interesting, what would constitute as a ritual though? Would it be reciting the story in a liturgy of sorts for example?
@@Crecganford I left that part out... Accordingly the myth was passed on orally and it was often preserved and recreated through songs or religious rituals. The Vedas, for instance, were memorized and only written down millennia later when writing became a convenient medium.
Consider the Native Americans, separated from another continant for 20,000 years. And they still retained mythos found found in Africa, Europe, etc. With no knowlege of writing, they carried forward the flood myths, emergence myths, etc. INCREDIBLE!
For millennia, the Black Lemba tribe maintained a belief in their Jewish Cohen heritage, a claim carried through myth and tradition for millennia. This claim was largely dismissed until Professor Parfitt tested their DNA and discovered their haplotype. The 'Lemba Cohanim haplotype' refers to a specific genetic marker found on the Y chromosome of some Lemba people, a southern African ethnic group. This marker closely resembles the 'Cohen modal haplotype,' which is commonly found among Jewish men who claim descent from the priestly Cohen lineage.
Carl Jung spoke of the 'Collective Unconscious," which might be the fertile ground in our minds where mythos and archetypes take shape. Folk memory is truly remarkable in its ability to preserve and transmit such profound elements of human history and belief.
That’s one way of thinking about it but these stories have evolved so much over time it seems pointless to say any one root cause is valid. I can think of hundreds of “truths” the garden of Eden story could represent. Just think of Robin Hood in the U.K. it’s a story that is mythical but most likely has no basis in real life events. There may be hundreds of stories that all started with a truth or a lie that amalgamated into the story we know.
@@Theactivepsychos Myths are like languages -- although they are vastly different they contain enough simularities to suggest an original source. Scholars can trace language familiy trees; And we can trace Mythos family trees.
I LOVED it! Please make more, this was excellent !!! One plea though - please always post it on youtube afterwards with auto subtitles enabled. I am not sure if they support subtitles on live streams, but I always watch with them afterwards to allow it to process it properly and generate subtitles (I am wearing hearing aids).
A suggestion for a future video you've touched very briefly with thanksgiving/rituals. Could we perhaps talk about our knowledge cuisine/meal and myth connections with more depth and detail?
I think I have already asked here before if someone is doing a similar study as you do - but for specific dishes, methods of preparation and the spread across cultures.
Maybe also talk about dances, music/sounds or other ritual actions that have connections with (or are reenactments of) Myths, their meanings/transformations and evolution.
I will try and make subtitles and post them here later if I can. As mine tend to be a higher quality than TH-cam's default.
FYI the subtitles ,here ,are not too good, I suspect AI .It has trouble with |academic language and Jon! Not being mean .still ok. There would be a transcript?
Misunderstanding myth must have been a constant part of the history of myth.
Surely, stories don't get shared and adapted across cultures and time without being misunderstood a little at each step on the way.
I would agree with you. Take a look at Buddhism and how it has sprawled into a tapestry of varying traditions and interpretations over the centuries as it has made its way through and been retold and reinterpreted in different cultures.
Myth changes with landscape and society, and so not misunderstood, but re-interpretted to fit in with the world around the myth tellers.
@@Crecganford isn't that what Hancock and Peterson are doing aswell? Their way of being in and looking at the world shapes their interpertation on the myths.
I was wondering if you had noticed any herbal knowledge within folktales as storytelling would be a good way of passing on knowledge? In the story of Rapunzel, her mother is having problems in pregnancy and needs a plant from the 'witch'. Rapunzel is a German name for the Evening Primrose plant, it has a long stalk with flowers all the way up, that open at night (long hair dangling from the tower)and traditionally the oil of which is reccomended for PMS, menopause and softening the cervix at childbirth. Although there is no or little scientific evidence for these claims it still appears to be used a lot. I could see a Christian compiler of folkfore not knowing the 'truth' behind the story and garbling it somehow. During times of inquisition and religious purging it might be wise to hide herbal knowledge. Just a thought I had. Thanks
Feel free to searcht he mythology database for the names of flowers, that might be a good place to start.
@@Crecganford I will, thank you, and thanks for taking the time to reply
Watched this when it came out yesterday. Never really knew anything about Jordan Peterson. Woke up today with a recommendation for a debate between jordan peterson and sam harris… thanks a lot Crecganford 😂
I can only apologise, although that Sam Harris debate was very interesting.
@ lol no worries at all i was jk it was still worth it. This video only made me like your channel even more if anything. It was actually pretty interesting though. Sam seems like an intelligent guy I wasn’t very familiar with him either. Funny timing tho. Flint dibble’s response to joe rogan was right underneath too so i think my algorithm is still intact 🤣 appreciate your videos as always
People who say "why would the Apostles have died for a lie" don't go on to become Mormons when it is pointed out to them that Joseph Smith was martyred for his beliefs.
Totally different contexts. The apostles died having opportunities to recant their positions. They died nobly, and in often slow, torturous conditions. Never once did they come close to denying Christ. Contrast this with Joseph and Hyrum Smith, who had no idea they were going to die until the last couple minutes before. Hyrum grabbed his pistol and tried to kill others in the mob after shouting “I’m a dead man!” In anger and fear, while Joseph Smith tried to escape from a window but was shot anyways. Not to mention the guys declared “martial law” in the state of Illinois for what they considered “false imprisonment”. That does not sound like people “ready to die” for their beliefs. Quite simply they didn’t think they would.
@@victorianreactionary1875 We have no reliable records that any apostle except Peter died a martyr's death. We have a lot of tales from later on, but we've also got accounts of Jesus turning mud ducks into real ducks (on the Sabbath!) and Thomas going to India. Hell, we don't even know who the apostles were - the gospels give different accounts.
So I agree that Joseph Smith was not a prophet but unless you can present reliable contemporary evidence I won't believe your claim that the apostles were martyred and were given the chance to recant.
First time here!
I really like how you condensate down your thoughts and I really appreciate how you're not strawmanning anyone.
Much love!
I have studied myths all my life, this newly discovered channel for me is like a dream. Please don't wake me up.
I was waiting for you to cover these. Peterson is the king of misinterpreting and twisting facts en masse
some may say he has weird opinions when it comes to mythology but most of his other works are quite based in fact
What? He's nowhere near as bad as someone like Dawkins
@@MrLichster Hancock is pretty good at (inadvertent?) misrepresentation too.
And Dawkins seems to have lost the plot
Peterson comes across as a conservative shill.
@@MrLichster so you seems look smarter
Have you ever thought of trying to get on Alex O'Conner's podcast "Within Reason?" I bet the two of you could have an engaging conversation about religious mythology!
I hadn't, although I think he is far too famous to deal with the likes of me, but I will try and reach out to him.
@@Crecganford Aw, you are underselling yourself. You've got a dedicated fan community, and extensive experience in your field.
@@gjhartist3685 Very much agreed!
Love your content thank you for your diligent approach to these topics
Good talk. Very enjoyable and educational.
Thank you.
Your channel is inspiring, thank you!
Thank you.
Anyone who speaks truth to misinformation lords like Peterson has my respect! I have no problem being derogatory when it comes highly problematic and corrosive individuals like JP.
Bummed I missed it, glad you did it. Thanks!
Would love to listen to a chat between you and Jonathan Pageau.
I would love to talk to Jonathan, his work of rewriting folklore particularly interests me.
@@Crecganford His brother, Mathieu, is interesting too. He wrote “Language of Creation: Cosmic Symbolism in Genesis”.
Just starting the video. Looking forward to this. Thanks, best of luck with the channel, its great.
Petersen seems to think that just because he is a proficient Psychiatrist it gives him the proficiency in everything. I love his dicussion with Slavoj Zizek about communism.
Slavoj says "We need to respect Dr. Petersen for his accomplishments in field of Psychiatry and for undoubtedly helping people" then proceeds to explain to Petersen, in detail, that his arguments are myopic.
I’ve loved your videos for so long, it is so nice to see these words put out directly by you on these people. They’ve done their best to destroy, warp, and rewrite history and myths, and it’s a huge disservice to the world. Love you man, you’re what I aspire to be as a historian and researcher.
Hey mate, just wanted to let you know that your work is appreciated and I do have a question.
What tea brand do you drink?
Thank you... and Twinings Strong Breakfast Tea.
@Crecganford this is not the answer I was expecting.
@@Crecganford
I actually thought it would be Earl Grey black and very hot 🔥
I am a fan of Dr. Peterson and Hancock. I truly appreciate your respect towards these individuals and this discussion gave me much to think about. I think Hancocks main issue is his hyperbole, but as you complimented Hancock is a fantastic story teller. The main trait of Hancock I love is asking questions no matter how absurd and really he is illuminating the collective unconscious of the family of humanity.
Dr. Peterson well... thats a bag I dont have time to write about. All I can say Dr. Peterson has chanegd my life and acutually showed me the door of the esoteric and Im down the rabbit hole. I do appreciate your thoughts on Dr. Petersons contrasting starements. Now Dr. Peterson has done a beautiful job highlighting the psychological significance of the Bibical stories. However, regarding his statement with the virgin birth, perhaps Dr. Peterson has partaked in occult studies (which I strongly believe he has for the knowledge he has), and for this knowledge, you may not share everything you are told because most are not ready for the knowledge. Just a thought, I could be totally off on that.
You gained a subscriber. I have taken an interest in Egyptian mythology and Celtic mythology I believe I found the place to learn! Thank you again for the wonderful video and blessings upon you!
Thank you, I appreicate your words and support.
Hi Jon,
I just finished watching the stream. I’m doing a MA in Theology and I'm nearly done with my thesis on the history of allegorical interpretation and its use in Philo of Alexandria's writings. My main question is whether allegory was intended by the original authors of myths (Homer, the Homeridae, or biblical authors in the OT and NT).
Through reading numerous academic books and articles, I’ve discovered that, in the West, allegorical readings may have started with Theagenes of Rhegium, about a century after the Homeric myths were composed. He argued that the myths about the gods were not meant to be understood literally, countering the criticisms of figures like Heraclitus and other philosophers. From there, allegorical reading developed further, with different philosophical schools adopting it, first the Stoics and later the Middle and Neoplatonists.
Plato himself, as you likely know, was ambivalent about myth: he critiqued existing myths but also supported creating new ones. However, his later followers had no issue reconciling him with Homer, claiming that both taught the same truths. These philosophers believed in an ancient chain of wise men passing down metaphysical truths. For the Stoics, this idea tied into their belief that the Pneuma or Logos governs all things. They argued that the poets who composed myths were inspired by this divine Logos, embedding metaphysical truths within their works.
Philo of Alexandria adopted these approaches, applying them to the Old Testament. As a Middle Platonist, Philo was deeply influenced by other schools, particularly Stoicism. When you read his interpretations, it’s clear that he imposes Platonism’s metaphysical ideas onto the text, much like his philosophical predecessors did with Homeric myths. I agree with you most of the OT is mythological, serving as a foundation myth (to simplify, as I can’t delve into details here, much of the OT focuses on constructing a national identity that could survive exile). The NT is different, depends on which Book you’re reading, but it also contains myth.
To answer your question regarding the sacredness, it isn’t inherent but arises from the reception of the readers and listeners, as they are the ones who grant these myths their sacredness. I’m coming to the conclusion that allegorical interpretation emerged because of the imposed sacredness of these myths, serving as a way to preserve their cultural relevance.
That said, I suspect there is also a pedagogical aspect to myths, I'm thinking about the Homeric ones. Perhaps you can share your insights on this? Sorry for the long Comment.
Thanks for the great comment, although to reply fully would be a challenge here I would say yes, as we the civilized world become historic, the perception of myths changed, and allegorical stories were also written and survived. Now you could argue that allgorical stories were told for thousands of years but didn't survive because they lacked sacredness and ritual that would engrain them in society leaving us with a perception of a late adoption. Equaly new myths were not being written as sacredness of the world was being questioned and history was taking over. But to understand what came first, and why, would be challenging and I wish you luck in your thesis.
@@Crecganford thank you for your reply
There's so much magical thinking in the world, it makes me feel I belong to another species.
We very much want to listen to you!
I'm wondering about the part when the people in Europe, in the north for example, believed the story that they "were uncultured barbarians" in the past in order to then latch onto the discoveries of texts that they believed proved they had not been the so-called barbarians and did have culture. I mean, was that doubt in their history going back to growth of Christianity, or plagues, or Roman Empire, or Greek influence? What was it that first set them up to believe the barabarian account that they could rediscover their own culture and then be vulnerable to those persons giving their own political spin on the myths?
Perhaps it was in the interest of the Roman Catholic Church to push the barbarian/pagan narrative?
As I said, this is a huge topic and worthy of a book, and there would be many influences in this, as whilst cultures tend to grow and develop, climate changes, wars, and convertions would all have an impact of what would be remembered. But terms of Scandinavia I think Christian conversion had a large part to play in the forgetting of their past.
Kings of Sweden for example titled themselves as king of Goths/Visigoths/Vandals etc.
Polish people, Lithuanians and Ruthenians, proudly (but not very historically accurate) identified collectively as the descendants of Sarmatians during 1400-1800, they did not think about them as some Barbarians, they made up the stories about facing Alexander the great or winning over Roman invaders. Polish and Lithuanian Commonwealth viewed itself as the succesor of Rome's Republic in contrary to neigbouring HRE (Neither holy, neither Roman, neither empire ;), but we can find depiction of eg. Jan III Sobieski - Commonwealth's king as Roman cesar as well as Sarmatian warrior.
Im sure that there are more examples of people being rather proud then ashamed of their early medieval ancestry.
@@karanseraph that's a loaded question. Nobody ever considered themselves to be uncivilized barbarians and christianization did not just wipe everything out but intermingled with the religious practices of the area. Streams and springs dedicated to gods or nature spirits became associated with saints, holy places like special hills and woods had churches build on/in them, feasts and rituals were adopted into christianity like decorating trees in December to supposedly celebrate the birth of Jesus who in the story was clearly born in spring.
They didn't lose their shipbuilding or raiding. Skalds still existed until the Late Middle Ages. Flyting remained popular up to the 16th century. Look at the names of the days we still use. Tyr's day, Wodan's day, Thor's day, Freyr's day.
The Sami weren't fully christianized until the 18th century. What culture was gone here exactly?
I really love your channel, Hancock isn't as bad as you think, when you think about how many people he got into the origins of humanity,
Always interesting. I'm personally not keen on the term 'mythemes' because it comes from Dawkins's use of memes which I don't find useful at all.
From a structuralist perspective, myths exist as paradigmatic sets. Within a set, items are able to be replaced without changing the structure e.g. a red hood with a blue cloak- both would be seen as occupying the same place in a set.
I think Peterson believes the structure of myths come from archetypes. Peterson differs a bit from Jung. They both see archetypes as embedded in and directing behaviour but Peterson goes further and sees them as arising from the structure of the universe itself i.e. they have a material existence in physics.
When asked about whether or not events truly happened, he sometimes says that they have always happened and are still happening. This reveals their reality as playing out archetypes.
maybe, that's my understanding at the moment!
That is a truly helpful distinction, thanks.
To be honest, because of his conflicting statements, I'm not too sure of where Peterson's beliefs specifically lay and how his thoughts have changed. I'm half expecting him to write a book of poetry soon in a way to be even less clear on his views. But this association with the universe itself I haven't picked up on, when I get time I shall watch some more of his talks to find out more about why he thinks like this.
@@Crecganford I think he explains this in an interview with the young Sceptic, Alex Connor. I'll see if I can link to it later this week. . Speaking of books, have you any plans for one?
I do not think that Jung's view on archetypes differed from that particular point, actually, I do not know about anybody who claims that archetypes have material existence in physics.
My goal is not argueing for Peterson, but when he is asked about whether or not events truly happened, by answering "that they have always happened and are still happening" he clearly suggests that archetypical stories are not embodied in material world of chronological causes and effect. If you would ask Jung if Jesus truly existed in ancient Judea, I believe he could answer very similarly, he could say that Jesus is an archetypical expression of self and the self is prior to any individual experiences.
Archetypes are potentialities. While they may manifest because of evolutionary pressures, It's hard to say if we discover them or invent them to cope with reality, are numbers discovered or invented, It's pretty simillar question, but thats only my view, Im open to learn.
I am saving this video for a walk in the forest tomorrow. I cant wait.
Wonderful show, and I think you are right, I subscribe to the idea that history, while its patterns and the laws of causality that orchestrate it are deterministic, it (history) is also highly sensitive to initial conditions, that history would diverge rapidly from slightly different conditions, making it unpredictable.
Great show
Thank you.
Your morning cup of tea, sir 🍵 🫖
Thank you very much, it is appreciated.
You can make playlists of themes here on YT-easier than going over to look at an index, but both would be good.
And I get you meant ‘current’ politics, but I think mythology is linked inevitably with politics-and has been a tool of it for a very long time.✌️♥️
Oh this is gonna be bliss.
.. aw crap, first ever live stream?. I'm truly sorry I missed it. I mean, I know you dunno me but I'm rather fond of your work.
It went well I think so I will probably do more next year, maybe even once a month.
@Crecganford
Mm-hm, I thought so too. I rather like the longer format as such gives you meandering room & encourages our interaction. If you do one next month, roughly when would you expect to start?
I I'm not a Christian and I do not particularly like the approach of Jordan Peterson. However on this occasion I did not find your criticisms compelling. The Old testament myths contain of course elements from other mythologies, reworked into a somewhat different form which the people of that culture found resonant. It seemed to them to tell deep truths about God and his purposes for the world. Any new myth will make use of previous ones it does not invalidate it. Just as a modern fantasy writer will use ancient themes to create something new and compelling. Of course if you take it literally that is a problem. But this is largely a modern problem. To be sure it's not clear where Peterson stands on that, so it is hard to criticise him but you are right to point out that he seems confused in that area...
Looking forward to the video about dragon fire! Great stream
I agree fully with Jon and that’s it
I can't wait for your next vid on "why dragons breath fire"...
I have an interesting model of understanding and comprehension on what the key elements in myths could actually be. Best of all, it unifies most, if not all the stories that align across the globe. My model also couples both the physical and spiritual realms by explaining it through physical observations and known observable facts.
I hope your next video aligns with my model.
Awesome discussion as always... And as I mentioned before you should sponsorship from Lipton or Twinings or Bigelow
That would be wonderful if that ever happend.
Hi Jon... I absolutely love your channel... wish I could have watched the live stream but I live in Australia. ❤❤❤
Thank you, it was difficult to choose a time that would suit everyone, but I do hope you enjoyed it.
Good work sir, thank you
Thank you.
I’d love to see an interview between Jordan and Jon
You are awesome
Thank you!
Love to have Metatron on this channel
I'd like to talk him, privately or for the internet to see. He made an interesting video about Hancock the other day and I wish he knew about the mythology database which would have allowed him to answer some of Graham's thoughts more directly.
@ I think he would be happy to talk to you
i begrudgingly clicked this thinking those two were actually having a heady conversation…luckily for it hasn’t yet happened i will still click to check in with the speculative arena
I’d love to see something between you and Esoterica.
Yes, he makes some fascinating content.
Cooking a Turkey now and I'm feeling a bit under dressed. I feel as though I should be decked out in ancient Mayan clothing who had an adoration and husbandry of turkeys in their day to show my Thanks for this year's giving of absolute madness that is my country.
Yes, sorry about that, it's why I should stay on topic! I can go down some very odd rabbit holes of history!
@@Crecganford It's alright Sir. Never apologies. It was a good gaff yesterday while making supper.
I had sent this video to friends who've been reading Jordan Peterson. Bit of a tangent throughout but can try again when you have the time.
I've listened and read to a lot of hancock. I've never heard him say any myth or civilization was 45K years old. Only that they are 12-15K years old.
Listen to the Lex Fredman podcast where he implies that he expected humans to have had an advanced technological civilization at sometime before in it 300k year history.
Have you ever listened to the blindboy podcast?
He has some interesting takes on how myth often carries meaning/wisdom of how to live within the environment of the host culture.
I reckon you’d have some pretty interesting stuff to bring, if you had a chat.
He is the most classy youtuber
Thank you.
Thank you!
Another point - it is easy to forget that the ancient world did not have the vast body of empirically established fact that we have, in science history geography botany and so many other subjects. Outside of a relatively small area of common sense fact based on everyday experience knowledge necessarily veered off quickly into the speculative and mythological because that was all there was. You know 'here be dragons on the map... ' So the issue of empirical fact vs imaginative truth although the Romans certainly did make it, was not nearly such a divisive crux issue for them. Because in so many areas , history for example, it was impossible to know what had really happened. And of course people experienced life in terms of the intervention of the gods even if they didn't actually see them, so there again the issue of literal truth vs myth just did not arise...
Interesting and useful framework of myths. The definition we had in communications was different- and I'm assuming closer to Peterson's. ( I don't remember whose def. it was)
Along the lines of " narrative, regardless of truth or claims to it, which affects people's perception, ideology or behaviour"
As such Darwinism and the big bang are also creation myths, as much as Santa Claus, and trickledown economics are myths, or 'a friend in need is afriend indeed'.. Red riding hood wouldn't be. (Interesting that, say, Snow white and red riding hood have different categories in your scheme simply because of the characters in them)
You should 100% be on Joe Rogan.
Can't guarantee I'll catch a leverage - time different and all - but I would definitely catch one on replay if you do another.
Leverage? I should read what I type before I hit send.
Livestream. Obviously.
20:20 Interesting. If you look into the Chinese historiography tradition, what it aiming for is precisely to connect these "seperate circles". Probably in all the areas you listed.
Great to hear you are against nationalism! So many archeology/mythology channels are ethno-nationalists. Survive the Jive comes to mind!
If you ever talk to Jonathan Pageau, keep in mind he is a non-Cartesian and like you explained how human sacrifice was practiced as an enactment of the myth. He literally thinks that way, that the structure of the world is fractal and the overarching structure reflects the smaller structures within it and vice versa.That's why his propositions seem strange to many people, he is not trying to reconstruct the old world view but he's implying that that's how the world truly works.
Come ON... Of COURSE you've got to have a direct discussion with Peterson. Have it facilitated and moderated by O'Connor or Pangburn or Derek Lambert if Peterson thinks that you're not a big enough name for him to further his "career" through.
Peterson can't openly admit that certain things in the Bible are not literally true because then he would lose a considerable segment of the admirers he has painstakingly won over from the political right.
Why dont progressives such as yourself actually read the Bible? You do realize the old and new testaments are filled with parables...? Stories within scripture...
Unfortunately, these days Peterson says alot without actually saying anything. I think he started out great, standing up to outright bullying around the use of language, but he has turned into a corporate and empty brand now.
I guess you haven't seen my work where I dismantle parts of the bible into its underlying stories and their sources.
I'm not sure what you're replying to.
Watch his podcast wtih Dawkins. I'm not sure how your comment reflects what Peterson says in that interview. On the contrary, Peterson does not care whether for example Cain or Abel actually existed, he just thinks it's a good story from which you can learn a lesson.
Good evening, Crecganford.
1:13:40 As someone who's found fire, like lightning, to often show up as a symbolic representation of "Life Force," I'm curious what your perspective on this is going to be.
As for this video, interesting work, as ever.
Best to you and your loved ones.
i agree with fire being lifeforce or alive. i have an idea that humans will die if fire ever goes out
@@taliakelly554 We're on roughly the same page. Only thing I can't figure out, then, is why people/creatures in fiction/mythology would willingly fire this stuff out of their bodies...whether it be monks blasting Chi, or dragons exhaling fire.
@@kholsinger prehaps they have too much. too much fire will consume all it's fuel and oxygen and snuff it's self out. humans spread fire to it goin, also fire is like breath, it take in oxygen and giveout co2, so maybe monks reach a point in meditation with their breath that it can become fire, and they need to breath it out like we breath out our breath after it's given us oxygen
Have you ever tried putting a hot rock (or two) into your tea to help keep it warm longer?
I have a cup sized electric burner, that keeps tea warm,though not hot. Your stone idea promises to break front teeth.
Thermos mug. Tis the only way
I shall go off and design a Crecganford Thermos mug...
@@DneilB007 is that like an opposite ice cube?
I really dislike Jordan Peterson's psychoanalysis of myth and religion. It tells me nothing about what the creators meant, only something about what Peterson thinks of the stories.
Yes, he has a way of interpretting myth which I feel is inconsistent.
Perhaps that's because Peterson was a clinical psychologist when he started whatever it is he's doing. His goal is to help people with mental issues to get a grip on their life and change it for the better. You don't listen to Peterson because you want to learn everything there is to know about myth and religion but because there's something wrong in your life.
Thank you
The names of the persons of mythology seems to reflect some of the topic in the myths itself..
The thumbnail picture of Graham Hancock looks like a human version of The Grinch that stole Christmas
I know it's not how etymology works but, Brahma and Sarasvati / Abraham and Sarah? Any connection?
Alas not.
@@Crecganford thanks
Was curious when you would toss your hat in on this one
I am like many other people, in that I am a fan of Petersons "early" work. He has absolutely gone off the rails since becoming hyper-internet-famous and the various troubles. But his biblical lecture series and the general ideas that he has put forward that religion and religious stories is not only 'some mythology' but an intrinsic part our evolution that has not only informed us but also formed us, was an absolute breath of fresh air to a huge amount of people, and re-invigorated peoples interest and appreciation of mythology and our ancestors.
I think you are doing him a massive disservice by putting him in the same bucket as O'Connor (two bit student university philosopher who doesn't even investigate his own language games), Hancock (alt history book seller), Dawkins (?? what does he have do with mythology) and the other guy who I don't have any knowledge of.
I'm sorry I have to spell it out to people but peterson is a modern mythological figure who has pushed forward ideas that have influenced an enourmous amount of people. You can deride his self-help books and his twitter demeanour but it's pretty undeniable that he has been, while very imperfect, at the forefront of constructing new myths, based on old myths.
peterson's ideas are ridiculous and convoluted. he just puts modern ideas onto old myths with no historical context
His views became a brand, and so he's lost to reason for profit.
Peterson, although he started great and gave some much needed practical wisdom that helped alot of disillusioned and unhappy men, young and old, he and also bravely resisted authoritarian speech rules. He has unfortunately gone down the route of destruction... He is focused on being a brand now and is ideologically captured (And I am conservative), I also think the fame and notoriety has sent him a little loopy.
I agree, fame did not help him. Not just the fame but the deluge of attacks and efforts to discredit him, hit pieces etc. At the scale and speed it happened (both the fame and the attacks) it would be hard not be affected and he was, retreating or doubling down into somewhat of a caricature or brand. I hold out a bit of hope he might produce some more interesting work in the future but who knows.
@@taliakelly554 you're welcome to your opinion ofc, but if you haven't watched the lectures and the content he was making 2018 and earlier I would say take another look. No-one is perfect but that doesn't mean you can find value in some parts of what they say.
Probably calling him a mythological figure himself is hyperbole but it's absolutely undeniable he has had a massive influence and impact on culture, far far more than the other people mentioned in the video.
If you ever do write a book on the history of the study of mythology I’d be a very happy reader!!! I appreciate you using your expertise to correct some of what these people are saying
I don’t listen to Peterson but from my experience in evangelical christianity I strongly suspect his comments on Jesus’ passion and the hero’s journey tie into the notion of Jesus fulfilling various things. Originally it’s said Jesus fulfilled the law but people often borrow this pattern of reasoning and apply it to anything that they think highly of (or believe their listeners think highly of). At my church Harry Potter went from being banned because of witchcraft to highly praised as soon as someone drew parallels between Jesus and Harry and pointed out the utility of using the series as a tool for evangelism. Even if the word “fulfilled” isn’t used, drawing parallels in this way is often used as a form of proof or persuasion. The hero’s journey is actually a common example! Jesus is obviously the ultimate, perfect hero and every story following this pattern is actually an expression of the human need to be saved by him.
There’s a bit of dissonance involved in this imo. The Bible is worthy of belief because it’s completely unique, written by god, but it’s also worthy of belief because it echoes so many common human ideas or sentiments. As far as I can tell people use either form of reasoning based on convenience 🤷🏼♀️
Thanks
Thank you for your support, it is appreciated.
Unfortunately, my impression of Peterson and Hancock is that they are two deeply arrogant individuals who have no interest in legitimately seeking the truth; therefore, the likelihood either of them would give you a second thought is slim to none.
I agree, but at least others will learn where some of their arguments are problematic.
@ absolutely. I enjoy all your videos.
@@pablopicaddo I don’t think Hancock is arrogant, I just think his beliefs are firmly rooted in his experiences with hallucinogens. He thinks the experiences were real and magical, though he wouldn’t use the term magic. And so he looks for everywhere there could be hidden magical explanations
I think he’s completely wrong about 90% of what he says, but I don’t think he’s as arrogant as he sometimes comes off in clips.
Could it be that history turned into myth because the people involved were turned into gods by later generations? I am asking because I had read a book about the Bad Dürrenberg Shaman who clearly was worshipped centuries after her death. Could this be the way deities came into being?
Whilst this isn't true in all cases, there are specific examples where we see this happening, and if not gods, into saints and demi-gods. And in a way it is how the personified god, the "human shaped" god came to be.
@@Crecganford Interesting. Can you give some examples?
Myths, the ones that matter are metaphors representing denied truths.
But who defines what matters?
@@Crecganford Those that know what is being denied and why.
John, we need to get you a Gen Z video editor and rebuke statements on a short format that is easily digestible by the average Joe
I could do that, edit my long form into shorts... Leave it with me.
😂
@@winwinmilieudefensie7757
Furreal. 😂🤣😂
🤭
No, please, short formats are for empty altercations: there is no time to go deeper into a topic with context and actually engage with real contents. It would be a waste of resources to create opposing fan bases. Jon's using a perfect format to give us a lot and his energies should continue to be invested into enriching whoever wants to get something from his efforts.
Regarding the dragon and the primordial fear of snakes, how does the myth of the dragon as a benevolent being come into this? I believe dragon myths started off with the dragon bringing rain, and only later branched off into fire-breathing menaces. Doesn't that invalidate the idea of dragons fundamentally being a manifestation of fear?
Yes, in terms of myths, early creation myths have the dragon being benevolent and I talk about this in my last video. But that doesn't stop us having a fear of snakes.
@@Crecganford I'm arguing against Peterson's Jungian view that the archetype of the dragon is essentially all the fears of a prehistoric human being rolled into a single mental form.
You're right we still have a deep-seated fear for snakes and the like, but I believe the relation between that and dragons is not as intimate and subconsciously driven as he believes.
Yes, for sure, when he talks about dragons being female, because they are chaos, that's quite a statement which isn't backed up by a view across all of the world's mythology.
@@Crecganford
He uses his own background and clinical experience to reinterpret religion and myth. That background and experience is in psychology, which is what he uses to back up his claims.
just starting the video now lets goooo
Peterson tends to concern himself more with moral and symbolic truths rather than historical truth. For him it seems like if there is a valuable lesson in a myth that makes people more prosperous, that makes the myth true rather or not the events of the myth actually happened. People often don't understand this and assume that for him to believe in the moral truths of a myth he must also believe the myths are true historically. This is where anti-Christian atheists fail to understand that Peterson is using biblical myths and legends as a teaching tool and rather or not he believes them as true historically are unimportant as far as their usefulness. With that said, I think because Peterson finds moral truth in biblical teachings he has also been more cautious about disregarding the more metaphysical aspects. His philosophy, which I agree with, is that if you don't approach the stories with great reverence you will not grasp all there is to learn from them nor take the lessons with the seriousness they deserve. I'm currently writing a mythological book, and if I approached myths with a dismissive attitude, I will fail to understand their cultural importance to the people who knew them and therefore would be dismissive of the people who held them with importance. This inability to approach other people with such understanding is one reason conflict in history is so prevalent.
What do you think of the creature or character Sasquatch? Do you think it’s a mythical creature or do you think it could potentially be real? Especially considering the ancient ape Gigantopithecus I think it could be real.
i think it could come from gigantopithecus or gorillas but it most likely isn't around today or it's a hermit, but most cultures has a sasquatch myth
For me, it is unlikely to be real, as with most amazing cryptids the better our technology gets for recording their existence the less "sightings" there seem to be.
Peterson is second only to Deepak Chopra in his ability to say a lot of eords that mean nothing.
The fact that anyone still takes him serioisly is beyond me.
Also, he's a sellout peddling hate, fear, and misinformation for moneu from oil billionares and that shouldn't be ignored either.
You seem to be missing at least 2 really important pieces of knowledge about myths that would change the way you understand them: how prehistoric people used myth to pass information across time, and what each myth MEANS. They go hand in hand. If you understand myths as information relay systems, then you understand there are layers of knowledge encoded inside.
When you know how to decode myths, you realize all myths had an entry level “This is how we survive, where to find resources, our morality, how to get along, etc.” layer. AND a higher level meant to raise our consciousness. We’ve lost much of the entry level except for morality and how to get along ie: fairy tales and religion.
But most importantly we’ve lost the hidden higher level meanings that help us become self-aware, conscious beings. And it’s because we changed our myths. I’ve been working on this for years. Now working on videos to explain.
Jesus is a passionate guy
I think that when Jordan mentions something about the mother/infant dyad as sacred and cultures without that belief dying out, he's expressing more of a truism. We know that such a view is generally held worldwide and so it speaks primarily to a truism about human societies (with the important caveat that this often does not extend beyond kith and kin historically). I don't know if it would be useful to read into it much more than that. That said, Jordan reads into everything plenty, so it wouldn't be quite fair to ask anyone else not to.
I'm not a huge fan of livestreams and can't finish this one. Have some engagement though.
Thank you. I understand and it is a balance as some people prefer them. I will talk more about what I mention here in future videos I'm sure.
Once we realize everyone is misinterpreting the past we can move into a new aeon
as a fan of both peterson and crecganford i've waited a while for something like this (hancock is a bit out there, even for me). unfortunately i'm left somewhat disappointed by the treatment of peterson's work here because i don't think it addresses the key point he's trying to make. for example, you may be able to decompose the story of the snake in the garden to two previous stories but of the infinite stories that could have been told the people who wrote the old testament believed they were important enough to put right at the beginning, and the fact that they've been carried from africa and beyond over however long is further testament of their importance to the carriers. it takes effort to commit things to memory so you only remember the most important ones. there's also the issue of using science per-se. the scientific method has only existed since c1600 so inferring anything scientific in anything recorded before that is tenuous at best. i often work with medical data and that data is not collected for the purpose of me doing science on it, it is recorded for book keeping and statutory requirements. a change or spike in my data could easily be due to a change in recording methodology, not the underlying territory changing. we must always be cautious of this effect when looking at material that was not recorded for the express purpose of keeping an accurate record of events, and even this concept does not (can not) exist before the formulation of the scientific method.
I have made a video specifically taking Genesis apart, the whole of the start of it. But my point was can a story that is borrowed be considered true or sacred? But do you not feel Peterson's narrative around the Passion of Jesus is not without concern. Not saying something could be true to Dawkins, yet implying it is to Pageau, whilst at the same time implying the Passion is a Hero's Journey and so fiction. These, to me, seem like basic and fuindamental issues that should be addressed before taking apart the detail.
@@Crecganford Thanks for the reply. I suppose (and to quote a Peterson meme) it depends what you mean by sacred, and I think that really gets to the crux of the discussion. I hate arguing over definitions but it's worth at least defining our terms. If your standard for sacred is something like "derived from an extra-natural source", spoken into a prophet's ear by a supernatural being or whatever process you prefer, then I will struggle to be convinced that any story is sacred and so the category of sacred story is meaningless. If your definition is something more like "given central importance to the society that recorded it" then I think we can have a more interesting conversation. There's the idea that a tradition is a solution to a problem a society forgot it had, and there's probably some basis for the sacred there too. There's also the question of what you mean by true, and there are different standards for truth. You can take an empirical basis of truth and say was there a garden called exactly Eden with an actual snake and an actual apple, or you can take a more phenomenological basis and these stories to me are more phenomological than empirical. This was my point about science. Unless you're doing science there's not much utility in recording things empirically, so they can't be treated as empirical record. Much better to take some short cuts, merges, reframes etc, to keep the knowledge useful (there's no point telling a story about a bear if noone in your culture has ever seen one). I've followed Peterson less as he became more involved with the Daily Wire / Ben Shapiro etc so I'm less familiar with his more recent view on the passion as a hero's journey, but the idea that the hero is the one who willingly takes on the biggest challenge they can even if it kills them (of which Jesus dying for the sins of humanity is the apogee), is fine with me and if a few more people took on these kind of challenges the world would be a better place. I find Peterson's more recent reluctance to address phenomological vs empirical directly somewhat frustrating, especially as he didn't seem to have any problems doing so in his earlier lectures. I expect is due to his recent D/W association though his recent health issues may have shifted his perspective a little. As an aside, I'm interested to know if you're familiar with the work of Lynne Isbell, specifically her book "The Fruit, the Tree, and the Serpent: Why We See So Well". I'd be interested to hear your response to her ideas.
I would love to see a chat betwen you and Peterson, or between you and Graham on these topics. A conversation where there is some back and forth is quite useful to discern where the truth lies. I would definitely watch/listen.
@@IonutPaun-lp2zq Flint Dibble went up against Hancock with loads of evidence. Hancock learned nothing but it was fun to watch.
@@AuntyKsTarot Flint Dibble actually lied in his debate. Do a bit more research about this. Joe Rogan and Graham Hancock amongst others talked about this multiple times. Look, I don't care much about Hancock and his lost civilisation, he does not have evidence for this, as he stated that multiple times.
He should not. Look at Flint Dibble's live after he engaged in such.
@@IonutPaun-lp2zqwhere did he lie exactly?
1:05:31 also, dragons?
The real myth is that dinosaurs were discovered by the victorians (or whatever)
If fossils have existed since the dawn of man, we can surely assume that some were found a long time before writing; Dragons and dinosaurs are not really different, except for the mythology around them
Couldn’t the advantage be immunity to disease
What about the legend of Troy, that turned out to be true. It had demigods.
A battle at Troy happened, the story of the Iliad did not.
@@Crecganford "Troy" was considered largely mythical for a long time, just until recently has it been excepted by archaeological evidence. It was folks in your field of study saying this.
Historians used to believe the city of Troy was just a legend. However, the general consensus now is that it existed. What other examples are there of once-thought "mythical" phenomena being found to be historical?
Should I start pointing fingers too? What does these two individuals have to do with You, or should I call this Click Bait, their names are more well known than yours I would believe.
It is not my fault you do not have the ears to hear the stars and constellations speak, and You know what I'll talking about, I've left many comments revealing how the Gold and Silver Gates can speak playing their names in reverse. They say that the Underworld is Real,
So I'll take your above statement with a grain of salt, because I say Demigods are real, and the Jesus dude was just another Pig like Damu "The Child", maybe even from the lost city of Atlantis ha ha ha
Wait... can anybody have access to that mythology database of yours?
No need to wait, yes, it is free thanks to the support of my patreons.
I have a question regarding your response to JP claim that "all I know is that cultures that don't hold the image of a sacred virgin die". You said that, it's an unprovable claim as cultures that did hold this image, were purged by force by christianity. Yet, firstly, it is not true that christianity only got rid of those cultures by force - for example noone made Constantine the grate become christian by force, nor did anyone made Franks nor Saxons Christians by force. Chlodwig took baptism by his own will, so it is not entirely true that all such cultures were purged by force. Secondly, there are cultures that still exist, have never been purched by Christianity, and also hold a special place for virgitnity like Chinese or Hindu. So here comes my question : Do we know a culture that does not place significance on virginity at all and still exists? It is not to claim that JP is right, it is to find out if this particular statement is true. Does your database show that virginity myths are common around the world? Or maybe not?
Go to any non-Abrahamic religion, there you will see tradition that does not hold mother and child in the same rank, because the child isn't considered a "son of god". The birth of Jesus of a virgin, by god is an exact copy of many Greek myths... e.g. Zeus taking Callisto to birth Arcos and creating the "Cosmic Hunt" a story many conclude to be tens of thousand of years old. The bottom line is that the NT, predominantly written by those educated in the Greek myths, is significantly influenced by other traditions.
I think Petersons take on myth is interesting, but its from an evolutionary psych perspective and not a more specific mythological or general perspective. Peterson probably isnt wrong, hes just right in a way that isnt very useful.
I liked how you worded that, very good.
Christianity is definitely mythology by your definition.