Yeah, the cliffhanger ending was controversial (a little), but most people I knew back then still thought it was great. I was just ticked off because I knew I'd have to wait about three years for the next movie. Ugh, three years!!!!!
@ClandestineOstrich the Fans loved it, critics were split 50/50 l. Ironic. Everyone forgot about those bad critical reviews because the critics are halfway up their own arses. Nobody will ever forgive and forget the divisions that TLJ caused
He is right people like the more upbeat ending of Star Wars and Jedi over Empire.Jedi was a retread of a new hope the same way Last Crusade was of Raiders after the much darker and challenging Temple of Doom.
Irvin Kershner did a good job of enhancing the emotion of the acting without allowing it to go overboard and spill over into sappy Lord of the Rings - Force Awakens territory. I think that has created a lot of confusion over what kind of acting Star Wars is supposed to have. EMPIRE's acting has the perfect balance of emotion while still keeping it within the Saturday Matinee realm. I think Lucas was able to achieve that perfect balance with ROTS when he hired a dialogue coach.
The two best lines in the entire Star Wars movie series are both from Darth Vader: 1: "Apology accepted, Captain Needa." in The Empire Strikes Back, right after force choking him to death. 2: "The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am." in Return of the Jedi, to the commander in charge of keeping the construction of the new Death Star on schedule.
A good story constantly unfolds. ESB took every concept in ANH and took it further and added more development to it. It also had more action than the first, and the fact Han gets Frozen in carbonite also adds a ton to the story. The stakes are real. Obi-Wan let Vader strike him down. He had a choice. Han didn't. The stakes became very real, and it made the audience wonder if Han had died. ESB is really the ultimate episodic tale.
The protagonists fail and lose the whole way through the movie, however there is always hope. The titles of the movies are true to form: the "New hope" carries over and throughout, but the "Empire strikes back" consistently and meaningfully. Hope instead of nihilism during such consistent reversal of fortunes is a great achievement. People put down RotJ, but I maintain TESB would not be as good without the triumph that eventually follows it.
Great video David. I enjoy The Empire Strikes Back quite a bit, however A New Hope, the original Star Wars, is my favorite Star Wars film as well as my favorite film of all time. It’s such a simple story with great character development for the first film of a series and with Empire and Jedi following A New Hope, I find those films help reinforce my love for the original even more due to how seeing how the characters progress through the trilogy and then looking back where it all started.
Really nice job analyzing the movie and specifically focusing on the role that characters truly have in enhancing our appreciation of the plot, but also drawing us in as the audience on an emotional level. I was 9 when ANH came out and instantly became a fan. When ESB came out, I was 12 and entering everyone’s favorite time of life - adolescence! All the trials and misfortunes that confront kids that age - I went through it. What was cool for me was having a role model like a Luke Skywalker or the more worldly Han Solo around to see how they handled their challenges. I loved that my heroes got dinged up - hell, they got more than dinged up they got put through hell. But, Han faced his fate with aplomb and just the right amount of seriousness. Luke - when he learned of the suffering of Han and Leia- dropped EVERYTHING and went to his aid ... “They’re my friends. I have to go.” Every struggling kid wanted Luke as a “best friend” to face down the bully or Han Solo to stare in the face of the bully and meet him head on without blinking. And Leia ... I had a huge crush on her. Seeing her misty eyed over Han, seeing Luke rush to his friends even at risk of his own life and his own future ... this had a powerful emotional draw for me as a kid. And don’t forget the music. The score conducted by John Williams ... I bet I was probably one of the only kids who would play Darth Vader’s Trap / Departure of Boba Fett and Clash of Lightsabers. Great stuff - the growing intensity and feeling of imminent danger in Clash (coupled with the visuals imprinted in my mind of Luke’s vain attempt to hold his own against Vader) would get me stoked up to face another day at school. I played the LP (yes, it was 1980 - well before CD’s had arrived) to death while waiting for the school bus every morning. ESB took my initial youthful love of ANH and it cemented it - as someone above said, “imprinted into my DNA”. I would FOREVER be a Star Wars fan. Well, at least until the Last Jedi came and punched me in the gut. Anyway, I don’t want to sully my memory of the grandeur of ANH and ESB by bringing in Rian Johnson’s failed vision. I look forward to more of your thoughts, David. You articulate your ideas clearly in all of your videos. Your video today just brought back a lot of good memories and answered some questions of why I loved Empire Strikes Back so much. Thanks!
Love the work you do, David. Thank you for your awesome videos. As an amateur novelist, I've been dealing with this very issue lately. I had these plot points in my head and these characters that I loved. The problem is, the plot points didn't match up with the characters I developed. After a couple of months of fighting with my story, I threw everything out but my main character and I be kind of asked, "Who are you and what's you're story?" Then I started again and let my outline develop around my character. I just said, "Okay, here's your obstacle, now what are you going to do about it?" The plot is more simple, but my characters have become so rich and deep. They've kind of developed their own personalities and some days they almost wood the story for me. I think plots are fine, but every plot has basically been done. Tell the same story with a different protagonist and you'll get a different story. Imagine rewriting Star Wars with Han in likes place. Same situations, different personality, totally different story! That's why characters are so important.
The whole time I was watching the video I kept thinking that's the complete opposite of The Last Jedi, and that's the total opposite of what The Last Jedi did. I wonder if I was the only one constantly thinking that throughout the video. I really enjoy these short analysis type videos. Although I really enjoy the long detailed analysis videos too, I guess I just enjoy all your videos haha.
Like Star Wars I saw ESB in the theatres. My whole family went; mom, dad, aunt, uncle, cousins. We saw it at one of the now gone theatres near Winchester Mystery house in San Jose. I loved it then and its now definitely my favorite. I remember feeling a bit let down there wasn't a big battle the end but absolutely loved the Hoth Battle.
What's interesting about ESB is that I didn't love the movie back in 1980, and ranked it 3rd among the Trilogy after ROTJ came out in 1983. I was 8 years old when ESB came out and it just too dark for me, and I didn't like that the good guys lost. I really didn't understand the themes that were going on and even thought Vader was lying to Luke. Fast Forward to the early 90's and I began to watch the Star Wars Trilogy over when it came to Cable (I believe SyFy Network or USA Network used to run marathons every holiday weekend when school was out). I still remember watching ESB at 17 years old and realizing how wrong I was and how great the movie really was. I loved the darker tone, I love the struggles that our heroes went through, and it's still my favorite ending with Luke/Leia/Droids looking at the Falcon flying away. Then I watched ROTJ, and realized how inferior the movie is to SW & ESB, and how kiddy the Ewoks were. But I did appreciate the Vader/Emperor/Luke scenes more as an adult. That really says something about the Star Wars Trilogy in that I loved it for certain reasons as a kid in the late 70's/early 80's, and loved it for different reasons as an adult years later. -
But isnt it interesting that you only appreciated those darker themes from EMPIRE after JEDI cam out? Lucas started the whole trend of trilogies getting darker with the second movie, but Lucas isn't just interested in dark, dark dark. He is interested in tonal variation. He does this with the Indiana Jones movies. That's why I think people really missed the boat when they bashed The Phantom Menace for being so light toned and kid friendly. I found it funny when people seemed so surprised at how dark Revenge of the Sith was. I honestly was expecting it to be even darker.
bruce wayne My point on ESB was that it was more about that I was very young and was too dark as it really had nothing to do with ROTJ. When I was 10 years old, the themes of SW went right over my head, so the feel good stuff of blowing up the Death Star was what appealed to me. Fast Forward to high school and watching the OT with a different set of eyes, the movies appealed to me in a different way. Stuff like the Binary Sunset with Luke, Luke failing at the Cave and Luke throwing down his Lightsaber had a deeper meaning now and the movies just weren’t about the good guys vs the bad guys. Ironically, TPM is the one Prequel that appeals to me now because of the less serious tone (although Jar Jar is a bit too much). AOTC, ROTS and TLJ take themselves way too seriously and it just doesn’t work in a SW film.
In the first scene where we see Leia, she is obviously staring at Han. Even though Han's conversation with the general about him leaving doesn't involve Leia, she heard the whole thing.
I'll add to that something a man named Luke Ski said. Most of today's Star Wars Fans™ were quite young when seeing the 1977 original. When viewing ESB, they were getting into their teens, and wanting something more dark and edgy (like all teenagers do), and were given exactly that. They were then disappointed to see ROTJ being less dark and less edgy.
This is very true. I was younger (5 years old) when Star Wars came out in 1977, so Empire was too 'dark/serious' for me at 8 years old, as I loved Jedi at 11 years. Fast Forward a few years to High School and I did a 180 on Empire and Jedi, and that opinion has not moved for 30 years. Empire is the best, Star Wars is like 1A, and Jedi is clearly third in the Original Trilogy rankings.
I really enjoyed this video, thank you, and I also wanted to let you know that I just finished your Needle Ash series, and enjoyed it so much that I am now reading Water of Awakening to chase it down. Be well.
Let's see, menacing villain, check Plot threads to get you excited for the next movie, check A perfect bittersweet ending, check Now for the sequels incompetent villain, yep Nothing to get excited for 9 cause you basically know where the story has to go from their, yep Weird ending that rips off it's predecessors, I remember that, Yeah I don't know how people can rank empire and the last jedi as being on par with one another, but empire still wins it for me
@@ravenwhiteduck3158 Just think if they had Rey join with Ren at the end of TLJ, at least that would be worth something to defy expectations for. Also it would of given a reason for 9 to exist. Not really enough to save the movie but, it could of taken a terrible movie to at least an OK movie.
@@brgessner what's that new ideas and creativity, can't have that, but yes jokes aside that would have been good also have finn die his character is pointless now since phasma is dead
@@brgessner How's this for Episode 9: The Falcon, alone, on the run... Suddenly crippled by a massive, unknown structure that pulls them out of hyperspace. Rey ignites her light saber. And one by one, she mercilessly slaughters almost everyone aboard the Falcon. She destroys the droids. All that remains before her now are Poe, Leia and Chewie, in the cockpit. Rey's eyes have not turned red, she shows no signs of being under the influence of the Dark Side - other than her sudden betrayal. "Why?" Leia asks. She and Poe fire in vain, Rey deflects each bolt, and the energy discharges are slowly absorbed into her now crackling, glowing body. Rey says nothing. She simply annihilates the remaining three. Rey leaves Leia alive long enough to whisper into her ear: "Sacrifice to Yahweh... the One True God..." End credits roll. Praise Jesus. And of course Yahweh turns out to be Azathoth. Praise Lovecraft. Win?
Good discussion. I think of it as the mythic heroe's journey (of Luke) to rescue his father (Vader) from the belly of the beast (the dark side of the force), in this case symbolised by Vader's armour or suit. As Yoda said, he will not complete his journey to enlightenment (becoming a Jedi) until he confronts Vader (symbolising the past) and integrating what Vader became and become complete - hence his realisation of what his father had become in TROTJ and where he was on that journey and so control that aspect of the Force. As a side note, the Vader fan film Vader Shards of the Past explores Vader's inner conflict very well in the dream sequence. I was always disappointed in the original trilogy for not exploring the nature of Vader's hatred. It is identified by Luke when he implores Vader to let go of his hate. But the orientation of his hate is never explored. The fan film offers a very useful solution to that IMO.
Since I can never catch your stream because I live in Europe and work at the time you stream, I would love to know if you have talked about how Dostoievski supposedly wrote stories (or if you plan to talk about it in the future). I heard that he came up with characters, put a conflict between them and then pit them against each other doing his best to "let the characters decide", not necessarily knowing who was going to win, who was going to be the villain or anything ahead of time. To me it sounds like a fascinating way to develop plot, but I have no idea how practical it would be to write like that in today's world.
Well he certainly played a part. Nothing compared to Lucas himself of course. Empire is made one way or another with or without Kershner. Funny how people don't go on about Never Say Never Again or Robocop 2 isn't it?
@@ariesroc - he deserves a lot of credit for the success of EMPIRE but fans go overboard in praising him. He is only a household name among directors for Star Wars fans. These same Star Wars fans bash George Lucas and call him a horrible director. Yeah well, he really is no worse of a director than Irvin Kershner. Anyhow, Revenge of the Sith is the non- OT Star Wars movie that comes the closest to the atmosphere and feeling of EMPIRE. So I would say Lucas had a lot more to do with the success of EMPIRE than most people think.
@@ironstarofmordian7098 Yes because of Lucas. Kershner deserves his secondary credit of course but the problem is that he gets all kinds of credit that others working on all 6 movies don't get. Kasdan's actual contributions are now in a proper place after seeing what he did without Lucas in TFA and Solo. Now those who didn't before realize how much credit they ascribed to him over Lucas was completely wrong to do so.
Nowhere near as much as today, to be sure. But the difference in quality to its contemporaries is like night and day. Take a look at Star Crash (which came out 1 year after ANH and even ripped off several of its concepts). Even the quality of A New Hope stands up to films made today. Too many of the sci-fi films of the late 70s and 80s make up a huge portion of the pile of garbage that has earned sci-fi its unfortunate reputation. I still love it, but I can recognize the cheese. LOL.
Even in the 90's there was only a handful of good big budjet sci fi/fantasy films so when a new one came out it was quite exciting. There seems to be a lot more big budjet films coming out each year now and the back catalog is still there on blu Ray disks accumulating with TV's almost as good as theaters. There are more sci fi/fabtasy films with decent efects now than you could watch but in the 90's you could watch every decent one if you could find the right vhs or film festival. You had to hunt the clasic films you wanted to see making them more special.
I'm not sure I can agree with the thing about character having primacy. It's an often repeated meme, but I think it's actually responsible for many of the ills of modern western media. Why are there endless remakes, reboots, restarts, sequels, prequels, etc, instead of original storytelling? Why is the comic scene essentially incoherent, with characters still being written about that have now even outlived their creators? Why is everything so incredibly stagnant? It's because too much focus is put on characters. It doesn't matter that you see Spiderman get his powers in 50 different adaptations. It doesn't matter that there are 50 different timelines in the comics, who may or may not relate to each other, written by 50 different authors, making the whole thing a useless, incoherent mess. As long as the character is the same one people adore, you're golden. That's the mantra that is repeated so often and it's honestly what's wrong with story telling in a lot of places. The truth is that characters are not that important to focus on. You _want_ to like the protagonist as an audience, so it's immensely easy to write a servicable protagonist. You can entirely ignore side characters, because in spite of what people think, they will never notice side characters not existing. You can write in some entertaining recurrent characters and can have your character be otherwise alone or at odds with everyone else. Villains don't need to be amazing either. They're there for the hero to kill and the audience knows it, so screw 'em. Make them mysterious or deranged, give them some kind of edge that makes them memorable, then you're fine. It's about the story and the world first and foremost. We read novels and watch movies to step into a realm we could never reach in reality. That's what it's all about. So make the setting an interesting one and build an intriguing world for us to step into. All the characters that guide us through this world need to do is not be annoying or boring, something that is almost impossible if your story makes them go through incredible things. If the focus was put on that, maybe people would inherently reject the same story being told over and over again, no matter how much they liked the character the first time around.
You're right, but all those sequels and reboots exist because the character _has_ primacy. They wouldn't exist if it didn't. The crappiness of reboots etc. doesn't change the fact that all of those franchises are successful because of their characters. Also their settings, you're definitely right about that. Perhaps the audience _should_ care more about plot (I certainly do), but plot can't be repeated, whereas characters can. You can certainly blame the corporate world for milking their IPs past all sense of decency, but for them to make a new IP successful they would have to create new characters that people like.
@@DVSPress Hmm, I suppose you're right, I might've spun the cart before the horse there... I'm just so incredibly frustrated with corporate Hollywood's venture into the dairy business that I'm probably starting to doubt what made those IPs great in the first place. And then I for example read novels where characters are sort of... subdued in how they express themselves and seem more like you view them from the outside, as part of the world, rather than them being the primary focus of the story. And I just see that working so well for me that I question the entire convention of primacy of character. It is a fact though that there's a reason why those characters are popular in the first place, which I absolutely cannot disagree with you on - and the fact that so much emphasis has been put on them is probably the reason that they have such an incredibly long shelf-life. I just hunger for some original new story universe to really break out in the movie industry, you know? There are some here and there that reach a certain degree of quality, but it's been a long time since I've seen a movie that both stands on its own and captures my imagination as much as for example Star Wars has. Something that, just for the sheer power of its quality and creatvity, ends up creating a universe with iconic characters that are remembered for decades to come. Ahh, but I know you share that frustration with me, so I'm probably preaching to the choir, aren't I? Haha
Thanks to empire? Dude Star Wars was a cultural phenomenon from the jump. Empire is great but crediting it for Star Wars success is moronic and shows you don’t know the history of the franchise and how a big a deal the first movie was when it came out. Nothing like that had ever been seen before.
I'm probably the only Person in this Universe who doesnt "Love" Empire. I mean its a great Movie overall (a 9/10 for me), but i really dont like act 2 that much. Especially the Han and Leia Storyline. Its extremly slow, it lacks in tension, excitement and Story. All they do is sitting in the the Falcon on an Astroid for maybe 30 minutes. The same goes for Vader. All he does is standing in his Star Destroyer. The Luke and Yoda stuff is great, but some of his Training scenes could have been better. The Cave scene had more potential. I wish we could have seen more of the Rebels....thats what i loved about the EU or the Prequels. They showed more than just the 3 main Characters. Please dont hate me😄
@@fundhund62 No, its because the rest of the Movie is really good.🤔 Its somewhere between an 8,5 and 9 for me. I think most SW Fans would give it an 10/10😄
@@droe2570 You are right. Not only standing, Sitting too. They are standing and sitting in the Falcon for more than 30 min! Atleast to me its not interesting or entertaining.
@@droe2570 Sry but where was the World building and Plot Movement? Being on an Asteroid is not much of World building, for me it felt (mostly) like filler. The Han and Leia Relationship could have happened somewhere else on a more interesting Location. Let Boba Fett or other Bounty Hunters Hunt them through some Citys or Villages, that would have made Act 2 more exiting. Kinda like Terminator 1 with Kyle Reeves and Sarah Connor. Maybe i'm a bit too harsh on it, but it bothers me everytime i watch this Movie ^^
The best example of Vader choking people is KK choking the OT, only to replace it with products and terrible films. I am very much looking forward to not watching E9 of this successful TROLLOGY!
While I do acknowledge it is the best, as a kid it was always my least favorite (of the originals) because it’s so dark. It would actually kind of depress me. Even the color pallet is gloomy. Great movie... a masterpiece in many ways (the climax with Luke vs. Vader) but when talking about enjoyability, I’ll take a New hope or return (even with Ewoks) any day.
Yesterday my father and I watched the second Pacific Rim movie. Our reaction to it was very different, and showed the difference in opinion between us in a unique way. We both agreed it was too glossy a movie; too much conveniently went both right and wrong for the sake of plot, too little on our heroes' side permanently died or broke, whereas in the first movie (the one made by DelToro) the stakes were real and continually progressed throughout the movie. He said "this is fine"; I said this made the movie extremely disappointing. After talking on Miles Morales some, he used an analogy to explain his viewpoint. "Betty [my wife] and I were watching a movie yesterday and she just kept asking me over and over what this word meant and that word meant. They just used all these big words, which were unnecessary and really drew her out of it. I just think that movies should tone down stuff like that for a general audience. These things should be accessible to anyone. If you're going to hire such big name actors why limit your market like that?" (Apparently it was just a mediocre Shakespeare themed movie, making the big words obligatory.) I tried to explain that while he did indeed provide a good example of a specific issue that should've been fixed, I do overall think there's nothing wrong with selling to a limited (niche) market. (You know, because that's what George Lucas, JRR Tolkien, and the like all did?) He angrily cut off the conversation and refused to continue, not even allowing me to explain the merit in creating something not accessible to quite literally anyone who watches it. Betty is an immigrant who hasn't learned a great many things about America after ten plus years living here, and just so happens to like very different things than the rest of the family; in his mind nearly everything must be toned down to her level, especially if it was a large budget film. It's this exact mentality - that everything should be for everyone - that creates the glossy, meaningless, dare I say morally disgusting perfect happy ending of so many recent Hollywood fluff. While I think that everyone should have something, no one thing should be for everyone. And this is something the classic greats like George Lucas understood. Not many people remember this today (and at 21 I wasn't around to see it firsthand) but there was a small yet tangible fan backlash to Empire. And to this day, even people who like A New Hope often don't like the entire original trilogy; in fact Empire and Return's extreme character focus just didn't draw me in like it clearly drew you in, David and anyone else reading. To this day the Original Trilogy I don't like all that much despite being a Star Wars fan, I much prefer the worldbuilding focus of stories like KotOR. It's not for everyone and that's okay. In order to refine your work in any tangible way you thereby need to alienate some other people. This is just the nature of storytelling. And this is part of what made Empire resonate with so many. It knew what it was and didn't strive to be anything and everything else too, unlike Disney Star Wars. If you try to appeal to everyone you've therefore appealed to no one. And that's what (truly) makes Empire great. It's one of the best movies that I just personally don't enjoy. It's something I can respect whilst even preferring it had focused on other aspects of the universe. It's an amazing movie hands down.
The worst one in my experience. I'm no SW fan anyways, but found other episodes at least bearable, and Episode 3 actually good. This was the only one I couldn't even sit through, it was just too full of the old space opera clichés to take seriously in 2010's. Of course, I also watched them out of order and with partial knowledge of the plot, just as it became a part of popular culture
There this idea being thrown around about a "Western-specific" monomyth. Basically the idea is, many of the most influential Western works - Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, classic Marvel comics, and the like - are very influential. So influential in fact that there's this false notion going around that what these pieces of media did are in some way the "objectively best way" to tell a story. In a sense these false necessities were added to the Western canon slowly over generations, leading to elements being "added to" the True Monomyth in order to create a very limiting, if not downright troublesome "Western-specific Monomyth". And (as the idea's advocates will claim) it's in confirming to this shallow, badly defined "Western Monomyth" that our modern creative world has gotten so stale, so plagiorious, so vapid and hollow. Unfortunately this idea is still in its infancy so I don't think anyone has sat down and really written out in full all the false "necessities" Westerners have "added" to the True Monomyth to corrupt it. But I do ascribe to the idea as legitimate. And to speak constructively, I do think you yourself, David, fall into this trap more often than you'd like - the trap of "the objectively best way to write", which echoes what a lot of other Westerners falsely think is the "objectively best way to write". For example all these works were uniquely character driven. And I understand that you yourself prefer a story to be very character driven. But I know a be great many series where characterization is best left secondary to worldbuilding (my personal favorites), and series where both are best left secondary to the core narrative conflict, and stories where all three are best secondary to the story's themes and message, and stories where the sheer absurdism is the focus, and et cetera. What works for one story won't necessarily be the best for another, and for each story an author needs to think long and hard about what works best for that *specific* narrative. It's a common trap amateur writers get stuck in over their entire literary career, this laughable notion of "it worked for another person therefore it'll work for me"; no, that's not how fiction works pal, you're just hurting yourself in the long haul. I know some writers are at their best whilst focusing on character, and I know many more who just aren't; my own work is best when focusing jointly on worldbuilding and theming, and bringing about character development as a result of those two aspects. When I get too character focused, to fit this shallow Western narrative that is perpetuated by both incestuous, shallow old Hollywood and small, careful writing channels like your own, my work suffers for it. So, constructive criticism? I'd love for you to highlight, even in just a single video that one time, how transient and situational a lot of your recommendations truly are. What you're saying should be taken as advice to be used carefully, not literalized facts to be taken too seriously. I am fighting something of a losing battle with budding Western creators that if they'd just break out if this shell other people crafted for them, they'd finally come into their own and start making bank off their work. All they'd need to do is create their own formula, as opposed to sticking to the formula crafted for them by other people.
A big reason is "The baddies have won." Luke 1 hand, solo frozen, Vader announced as Luke's dad. It is obviously difficult for most films to end that way. I think we forget that Luke has such a short time of Yoda training. People dis last Jedi for only showing Rey having only a day or 2 from Luke, but that is at least as much Luke is shown having.
Let me defend the prequels for a bit. I think most people don't have a full picture of what the prequels are really about. The books essentially really set up revenge of the sith to be a massive tipping point only to be swung by another massive tipping point in a new hope. The person that really should have been focused more was palpatine. We never really got to see what he did behind the scenes with plagues to gain his political power and successfully wipe out the jedi in one swoop. I can bet you that most star wars fans have no idea why the trade federation invaded naboo in the first place in TPM. Yes the writing was bad at times but I can argue that the OT also has clunky and robotic dialogue as well. The books and prequels also more meaning to the force as well. The OT's interpretation of the force was pretty black and white. But the books/prequels gave it more grey spots. It's more like christianity vs evolution. The jedi value the preservation of life while the dark side of the force believed that mankind should reach it's full potential. What is right or wrong is less clear and that's why I like it more.
People love it because it is more than 30 years old. If it would be released in today´s internet age, so called fans would tear it to shreds without a shadow of a doubt.
Hmm. Ok. Gonna have to disagree with you on this. This fan LOVED it. And I was not alone. We would tear it to shreds....? Nope. Count me as “shadow” AND “doubt.”
@@brianomdahl8377 We all loved it. That's not the point. The point is that the reception of films was vastly different before the internet days. There a plenty of strange scenes in the OT (even plotholes), and if the films were to be released today, there would be countless videos pointing them out. Plus, almost anybody calls movies they don't like "objectively bad" these days, and TESB wouldn't be spared! That's all I'm saying. Take for example the love story. Han is acting pretty creepy indeed, and he oversteps Leia's "no" countless times! Today's audiences wouldn't have that kind of behavior, and we who grew up on the films accept it only because of nostalgia.
fundhund62 Fair point. The Internet allows people to [safely] be a jerk to one or ALL of us and get away with socially inappropriate comments. I will give you that. However, when I saw Empire I was 12. And the film connected with me on so many levels. The idea of me going on the internet and “trashing” it just to be a jerk - I really don’t see myself doing that. And, I don’t think I would be alone in that feeling. Your point about Han and his not taking Leia’s initial rebuff. Valid point. In 2019 sexual politics, Han would likely be viewed by some militant PC folks as being too aggressive, and Leia could file sexual harassment charges with General Rieekan if she wanted. Is that a commentary more reflecting 2019...? Or more reflecting the internet...? Would I - as a 12 year old kid - be offended by Han and his “charm” attempts on Leia that I would turn to the internet and shred it?? I don’t think so. I was 12. Han was Harrison Ford and charming enough. And, it seemed to work on Leia - she fell for him and admitted as much before Han was frozen in carbonite. I might see myself chatting with folks about “I can’t believe Vader is Luke’s dad!! No way! Unbelievable! Wow....”. But again, I was INTRIGUED by the idea of where this would take the story. I accepted Luke’s situation just as Luke did when he and Leia are gazing off into that nebula as the Falcon with Lando and Chewie aboard race off toward Tatooine to save Han. I don’t see myself complaining and being an ass on the internet over this. I was sold. Hook, line and sinker. I see your point. I just don’t see myself and kids my age doing that. Adults, maybe. Internet trolls abound, and the majority are likely over the age of 18 with a lot of time on their hands and enjoy venting their rage at the world in posts on the net. Kids my age might speculate and wonder at what story points RotJ might bring. But to be honest, at 12, I was way into reading and re-reading the Brian Daley and Alan Dean Foster books. And of course, the Star Wars book by George Lucas. I was a fan. Those were good days. And I don’t see myself actively sabotaging that good feeling. I appreciate your response though. No profanity, no insults and no attempt to belittle me. I salute you! :)
@@brianomdahl8377 You seem to take my comment a bit personal, though. I don't know you, and of course I'm not claiming that you specifically would "tear it to shreds". It's more like this: You emphasize again and again how intrigued you were by the film, and how you immersed yourself in that world. But that's precisely what the internet takes away from people! I have stopped counting how many people on YT have told me over the years that they used to enjoy (even "love") the prequels, but then they watched the Plinkett reviews, and decided not to like them anymore. That not only shows many people today are unable to stick up for their opinion. First and foremost it emphasizes my main point: We didn't have a whole internet community screaming at us about wooden acting, stilted dialogue or plotholes in 1980! We enjoyed what we enjoyed, and that was it. As for Han and Leia, the problem does not lie with the 2019 political correctness. Han's behavior is offensive (and very immature) indeed, and in real life almost any self-respecting woman would kick him to the curb immediately. It's one of those silly Hollywood tropes that mistakes stalking for love, and it's a big flaw of the film indeed.
I still find it laughable when Rian Johnson said "Well people didn't like Empire Strikes Back when it first came out!"
Yeah, the cliffhanger ending was controversial (a little), but most people I knew back then still thought it was great. I was just ticked off because I knew I'd have to wait about three years for the next movie. Ugh, three years!!!!!
@ClandestineOstrich the Fans loved it, critics were split 50/50 l. Ironic. Everyone forgot about those bad critical reviews because the critics are halfway up their own arses. Nobody will ever forgive and forget the divisions that TLJ caused
Idk I agree with him. As more time passes, the more I like the last Jedi
@@racool911
That's the beauty of controversial cinema
The Last jedi is actually good.
He is right people like the more upbeat ending of Star Wars and Jedi over Empire.Jedi was a retread of a new hope the same way Last Crusade was of Raiders after the much darker and challenging Temple of Doom.
Irvin Kershner did a good job of enhancing the emotion of the acting without allowing it to go overboard and spill over into sappy Lord of the Rings - Force Awakens territory. I think that has created a lot of confusion over what kind of acting Star Wars is supposed to have. EMPIRE's acting has the perfect balance of emotion while still keeping it within the Saturday Matinee realm. I think Lucas was able to achieve that perfect balance with ROTS when he hired a dialogue coach.
This guy is a wonderful teacher. Fantastic.
The two best lines in the entire Star Wars movie series are both from Darth Vader:
1: "Apology accepted, Captain Needa." in The Empire Strikes Back, right after force choking him to death.
2: "The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am." in Return of the Jedi, to the commander in charge of keeping the construction of the new Death Star on schedule.
To me it was "I am altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it further."
More star wars discussions like this please! Settles my anxiety
A good story constantly unfolds. ESB took every concept in ANH and took it further and added more development to it. It also had more action than the first, and the fact Han gets Frozen in carbonite also adds a ton to the story. The stakes are real. Obi-Wan let Vader strike him down. He had a choice. Han didn't. The stakes became very real, and it made the audience wonder if Han had died. ESB is really the ultimate episodic tale.
The protagonists fail and lose the whole way through the movie, however there is always hope. The titles of the movies are true to form: the "New hope" carries over and throughout, but the "Empire strikes back" consistently and meaningfully. Hope instead of nihilism during such consistent reversal of fortunes is a great achievement. People put down RotJ, but I maintain TESB would not be as good without the triumph that eventually follows it.
Great video David. I enjoy The Empire Strikes Back quite a bit, however A New Hope, the original Star Wars, is my favorite Star Wars film as well as my favorite film of all time. It’s such a simple story with great character development for the first film of a series and with Empire and Jedi following A New Hope, I find those films help reinforce my love for the original even more due to how seeing how the characters progress through the trilogy and then looking back where it all started.
Really nice job analyzing the movie and specifically focusing on the role that characters truly have in enhancing our appreciation of the plot, but also drawing us in as the audience on an emotional level. I was 9 when ANH came out and instantly became a fan. When ESB came out, I was 12 and entering everyone’s favorite time of life - adolescence! All the trials and misfortunes that confront kids that age - I went through it. What was cool for me was having a role model like a Luke Skywalker or the more worldly Han Solo around to see how they handled their challenges. I loved that my heroes got dinged up - hell, they got more than dinged up they got put through hell. But, Han faced his fate with aplomb and just the right amount of seriousness. Luke - when he learned of the suffering of Han and Leia- dropped EVERYTHING and went to his aid ... “They’re my friends. I have to go.” Every struggling kid wanted Luke as a “best friend” to face down the bully or Han Solo to stare in the face of the bully and meet him head on without blinking. And Leia ... I had a huge crush on her. Seeing her misty eyed over Han, seeing Luke rush to his friends even at risk of his own life and his own future ... this had a powerful emotional draw for me as a kid.
And don’t forget the music. The score conducted by John Williams ... I bet I was probably one of the only kids who would play Darth Vader’s Trap / Departure of Boba Fett and Clash of Lightsabers. Great stuff - the growing intensity and feeling of imminent danger in Clash (coupled with the visuals imprinted in my mind of Luke’s vain attempt to hold his own against Vader) would get me stoked up to face another day at school. I played the LP (yes, it was 1980 - well before CD’s had arrived) to death while waiting for the school bus every morning.
ESB took my initial youthful love of ANH and it cemented it - as someone above said, “imprinted into my DNA”. I would FOREVER be a Star Wars fan. Well, at least until the Last Jedi came and punched me in the gut. Anyway, I don’t want to sully my memory of the grandeur of ANH and ESB by bringing in Rian Johnson’s failed vision.
I look forward to more of your thoughts, David. You articulate your ideas clearly in all of your videos. Your video today just brought back a lot of good memories and answered some questions of why I loved Empire Strikes Back so much. Thanks!
Love the work you do, David. Thank you for your awesome videos. As an amateur novelist, I've been dealing with this very issue lately. I had these plot points in my head and these characters that I loved. The problem is, the plot points didn't match up with the characters I developed. After a couple of months of fighting with my story, I threw everything out but my main character and I be kind of asked, "Who are you and what's you're story?" Then I started again and let my outline develop around my character. I just said, "Okay, here's your obstacle, now what are you going to do about it?" The plot is more simple, but my characters have become so rich and deep. They've kind of developed their own personalities and some days they almost wood the story for me. I think plots are fine, but every plot has basically been done. Tell the same story with a different protagonist and you'll get a different story. Imagine rewriting Star Wars with Han in likes place. Same situations, different personality, totally different story! That's why characters are so important.
The whole time I was watching the video I kept thinking that's the complete opposite of The Last Jedi, and that's the total opposite of what The Last Jedi did. I wonder if I was the only one constantly thinking that throughout the video. I really enjoy these short analysis type videos. Although I really enjoy the long detailed analysis videos too, I guess I just enjoy all your videos haha.
No, I'm right there with you.
Like Star Wars I saw ESB in the theatres. My whole family went; mom, dad, aunt, uncle, cousins. We saw it at one of the now gone theatres near Winchester Mystery house in San Jose. I loved it then and its now definitely my favorite. I remember feeling a bit let down there wasn't a big battle the end but absolutely loved the Hoth Battle.
Great analysis David. Thanks for the video.
I get back into the house after a 5am run and what do I have to relax with? A chill new DVS video! WHOO!!!
What's interesting about ESB is that I didn't love the movie back in 1980, and ranked it 3rd among the Trilogy after ROTJ came out in 1983. I was 8 years old when ESB came out and it just too dark for me, and I didn't like that the good guys lost. I really didn't understand the themes that were going on and even thought Vader was lying to Luke. Fast Forward to the early 90's and I began to watch the Star Wars Trilogy over when it came to Cable (I believe SyFy Network or USA Network used to run marathons every holiday weekend when school was out). I still remember watching ESB at 17 years old and realizing how wrong I was and how great the movie really was. I loved the darker tone, I love the struggles that our heroes went through, and it's still my favorite ending with Luke/Leia/Droids looking at the Falcon flying away. Then I watched ROTJ, and realized how inferior the movie is to SW & ESB, and how kiddy the Ewoks were. But I did appreciate the Vader/Emperor/Luke scenes more as an adult. That really says something about the Star Wars Trilogy in that I loved it for certain reasons as a kid in the late 70's/early 80's, and loved it for different reasons as an adult years later. -
But isnt it interesting that you only appreciated those darker themes from EMPIRE after JEDI cam out? Lucas started the whole trend of trilogies getting darker with the second movie, but Lucas isn't just interested in dark, dark dark. He is interested in tonal variation. He does this with the Indiana Jones movies. That's why I think people really missed the boat when they bashed The Phantom Menace for being so light toned and kid friendly. I found it funny when people seemed so surprised at how dark Revenge of the Sith was. I honestly was expecting it to be even darker.
bruce wayne My point on ESB was that it was more about that I was very young and was too dark as it really had nothing to do with ROTJ. When I was 10 years old, the themes of SW went right over my head, so the feel good stuff of blowing up the Death Star was what appealed to me.
Fast Forward to high school and watching the OT with a different set of eyes, the movies appealed to me in a different way. Stuff like the Binary Sunset with Luke, Luke failing at the Cave and Luke throwing down his Lightsaber had a deeper meaning now and the movies just weren’t about the good guys vs the bad guys.
Ironically, TPM is the one Prequel that appeals to me now because of the less serious tone (although Jar Jar is a bit too much). AOTC, ROTS and TLJ take themselves way too seriously and it just doesn’t work in a SW film.
In the first scene where we see Leia, she is obviously staring at Han. Even though Han's conversation with the general about him leaving doesn't involve Leia, she heard the whole thing.
I'll add to that something a man named Luke Ski said. Most of today's Star Wars Fans™ were quite young when seeing the 1977 original. When viewing ESB, they were getting into their teens, and wanting something more dark and edgy (like all teenagers do), and were given exactly that. They were then disappointed to see ROTJ being less dark and less edgy.
This is very true. I was younger (5 years old) when Star Wars came out in 1977, so Empire was too 'dark/serious' for me at 8 years old, as I loved Jedi at 11 years. Fast Forward a few years to High School and I did a 180 on Empire and Jedi, and that opinion has not moved for 30 years. Empire is the best, Star Wars is like 1A, and Jedi is clearly third in the Original Trilogy rankings.
I really enjoyed this video, thank you, and I also wanted to let you know that I just finished your Needle Ash series, and enjoyed it so much that I am now reading Water of Awakening to chase it down. Be well.
Also, the music got better with a theme for Vader (Imperial March) and Yoda's theme.
Welcome back
So basically, The Empire Strikes Back is everything The Last Jedi isn`t?........
The first six Star Wars films that had George Lucas involved are everything TLJ isn’t.
Let's see, menacing villain, check
Plot threads to get you excited for the next movie, check
A perfect bittersweet ending, check
Now for the sequels incompetent villain, yep
Nothing to get excited for 9 cause you basically know where the story has to go from their, yep
Weird ending that rips off it's predecessors, I remember that,
Yeah I don't know how people can rank empire and the last jedi as being on par with one another, but empire still wins it for me
@@ravenwhiteduck3158 Just think if they had Rey join with Ren at the end of TLJ, at least that would be worth something to defy expectations for. Also it would of given a reason for 9 to exist. Not really enough to save the movie but, it could of taken a terrible movie to at least an OK movie.
@@brgessner what's that new ideas and creativity, can't have that, but yes jokes aside that would have been good also have finn die his character is pointless now since phasma is dead
@@brgessner
How's this for Episode 9:
The Falcon, alone, on the run...
Suddenly crippled by a massive, unknown structure that pulls them out of hyperspace.
Rey ignites her light saber. And one by one, she mercilessly slaughters almost everyone aboard the Falcon. She destroys the droids.
All that remains before her now are Poe, Leia and Chewie, in the cockpit. Rey's eyes have not turned red, she shows no signs of being under the influence of the Dark Side - other than her sudden betrayal.
"Why?" Leia asks. She and Poe fire in vain, Rey deflects each bolt, and the energy discharges are slowly absorbed into her now crackling, glowing body.
Rey says nothing. She simply annihilates the remaining three. Rey leaves Leia alive long enough to whisper into her ear: "Sacrifice to Yahweh... the One True God..."
End credits roll. Praise Jesus.
And of course Yahweh turns out to be Azathoth.
Praise Lovecraft.
Win?
No Patreon? Hell yeah!
Good discussion. I think of it as the mythic heroe's journey (of Luke) to rescue his father (Vader) from the belly of the beast (the dark side of the force), in this case symbolised by Vader's armour or suit. As Yoda said, he will not complete his journey to enlightenment (becoming a Jedi) until he confronts Vader (symbolising the past) and integrating what Vader became and become complete - hence his realisation of what his father had become in TROTJ and where he was on that journey and so control that aspect of the Force.
As a side note, the Vader fan film Vader Shards of the Past explores Vader's inner conflict very well in the dream sequence. I was always disappointed in the original trilogy for not exploring the nature of Vader's hatred. It is identified by Luke when he implores Vader to let go of his hate. But the orientation of his hate is never explored. The fan film offers a very useful solution to that IMO.
Since I can never catch your stream because I live in Europe and work at the time you stream, I would love to know if you have talked about how Dostoievski supposedly wrote stories (or if you plan to talk about it in the future). I heard that he came up with characters, put a conflict between them and then pit them against each other doing his best to "let the characters decide", not necessarily knowing who was going to win, who was going to be the villain or anything ahead of time. To me it sounds like a fascinating way to develop plot, but I have no idea how practical it would be to write like that in today's world.
Irvin Kershner made one of the best sequels of all time
I agree, Robocop 2 is awesome
Well he certainly played a part. Nothing compared to Lucas himself of course. Empire is made one way or another with or without Kershner. Funny how people don't go on about Never Say Never Again or Robocop 2 isn't it?
@@ariesroc - he deserves a lot of credit for the success of EMPIRE but fans go overboard in praising him. He is only a household name among directors for Star Wars fans. These same Star Wars fans bash George Lucas and call him a horrible director. Yeah well, he really is no worse of a director than Irvin Kershner. Anyhow, Revenge of the Sith is the non- OT Star Wars movie that comes the closest to the atmosphere and feeling of EMPIRE. So I would say Lucas had a lot more to do with the success of EMPIRE than most people think.
@@ariesroc Empire was the success it was because of him.
@@ironstarofmordian7098 Yes because of Lucas. Kershner deserves his secondary credit of course but the problem is that he gets all kinds of credit that others working on all 6 movies don't get. Kasdan's actual contributions are now in a proper place after seeing what he did without Lucas in TFA and Solo. Now those who didn't before realize how much credit they ascribed to him over Lucas was completely wrong to do so.
Darth Vader is Luke's dad? I thought he was a giant scorpion.
I think a lot of people nowadays tend to forget that there wasn't a lot of contenders in the Sci-Fi area.
Nowhere near as much as today, to be sure. But the difference in quality to its contemporaries is like night and day. Take a look at Star Crash (which came out 1 year after ANH and even ripped off several of its concepts). Even the quality of A New Hope stands up to films made today. Too many of the sci-fi films of the late 70s and 80s make up a huge portion of the pile of garbage that has earned sci-fi its unfortunate reputation. I still love it, but I can recognize the cheese. LOL.
Even in the 90's there was only a handful of good big budjet sci fi/fantasy films so when a new one came out it was quite exciting. There seems to be a lot more big budjet films coming out each year now and the back catalog is still there on blu Ray disks accumulating with TV's almost as good as theaters. There are more sci fi/fabtasy films with decent efects now than you could watch but in the 90's you could watch every decent one if you could find the right vhs or film festival. You had to hunt the clasic films you wanted to see making them more special.
It is more a fantasy movie then a sci-fi. As a sci-fi it is horrible.
I'm not sure I can agree with the thing about character having primacy. It's an often repeated meme, but I think it's actually responsible for many of the ills of modern western media. Why are there endless remakes, reboots, restarts, sequels, prequels, etc, instead of original storytelling? Why is the comic scene essentially incoherent, with characters still being written about that have now even outlived their creators? Why is everything so incredibly stagnant?
It's because too much focus is put on characters. It doesn't matter that you see Spiderman get his powers in 50 different adaptations. It doesn't matter that there are 50 different timelines in the comics, who may or may not relate to each other, written by 50 different authors, making the whole thing a useless, incoherent mess. As long as the character is the same one people adore, you're golden. That's the mantra that is repeated so often and it's honestly what's wrong with story telling in a lot of places.
The truth is that characters are not that important to focus on. You _want_ to like the protagonist as an audience, so it's immensely easy to write a servicable protagonist. You can entirely ignore side characters, because in spite of what people think, they will never notice side characters not existing. You can write in some entertaining recurrent characters and can have your character be otherwise alone or at odds with everyone else. Villains don't need to be amazing either. They're there for the hero to kill and the audience knows it, so screw 'em. Make them mysterious or deranged, give them some kind of edge that makes them memorable, then you're fine.
It's about the story and the world first and foremost. We read novels and watch movies to step into a realm we could never reach in reality. That's what it's all about. So make the setting an interesting one and build an intriguing world for us to step into. All the characters that guide us through this world need to do is not be annoying or boring, something that is almost impossible if your story makes them go through incredible things.
If the focus was put on that, maybe people would inherently reject the same story being told over and over again, no matter how much they liked the character the first time around.
You're right, but all those sequels and reboots exist because the character _has_ primacy. They wouldn't exist if it didn't. The crappiness of reboots etc. doesn't change the fact that all of those franchises are successful because of their characters. Also their settings, you're definitely right about that. Perhaps the audience _should_ care more about plot (I certainly do), but plot can't be repeated, whereas characters can.
You can certainly blame the corporate world for milking their IPs past all sense of decency, but for them to make a new IP successful they would have to create new characters that people like.
@@DVSPress Hmm, I suppose you're right, I might've spun the cart before the horse there...
I'm just so incredibly frustrated with corporate Hollywood's venture into the dairy business that I'm probably starting to doubt what made those IPs great in the first place.
And then I for example read novels where characters are sort of... subdued in how they express themselves and seem more like you view them from the outside, as part of the world, rather than them being the primary focus of the story. And I just see that working so well for me that I question the entire convention of primacy of character.
It is a fact though that there's a reason why those characters are popular in the first place, which I absolutely cannot disagree with you on - and the fact that so much emphasis has been put on them is probably the reason that they have such an incredibly long shelf-life.
I just hunger for some original new story universe to really break out in the movie industry, you know? There are some here and there that reach a certain degree of quality, but it's been a long time since I've seen a movie that both stands on its own and captures my imagination as much as for example Star Wars has. Something that, just for the sheer power of its quality and creatvity, ends up creating a universe with iconic characters that are remembered for decades to come. Ahh, but I know you share that frustration with me, so I'm probably preaching to the choir, aren't I? Haha
I absolutely love Leia and Han :D
Thanks to Empire Strikes Back Star Wars
become a popular franchise but then Disney arrived
Thanks to empire? Dude Star Wars was a cultural phenomenon from the jump. Empire is great but crediting it for Star Wars success is moronic and shows you don’t know the history of the franchise and how a big a deal the first movie was when it came out. Nothing like that had ever been seen before.
In before shills say "Empire was disliked too~"
Who said I love it?
Darth Mater
I'm probably the only Person in this Universe who doesnt "Love" Empire. I mean its a great Movie overall (a 9/10 for me), but i really dont like act 2 that much. Especially the Han and Leia Storyline. Its extremly slow, it lacks in tension, excitement and Story. All they do is sitting in the the Falcon on an Astroid for maybe 30 minutes. The same goes for Vader. All he does is standing in his Star Destroyer. The Luke and Yoda stuff is great, but some of his Training scenes could have been better. The Cave scene had more potential.
I wish we could have seen more of the Rebels....thats what i loved about the EU or the Prequels. They showed more than just the 3 main Characters.
Please dont hate me😄
I can see where you are coming from. But why do you give it a 9/10, then? Just because everyone else does?
@@fundhund62 No, its because the rest of the Movie is really good.🤔 Its somewhere between an 8,5 and 9 for me.
I think most SW Fans would give it an 10/10😄
@@droe2570 You are right. Not only standing, Sitting too.
They are standing and sitting in the Falcon for more than 30 min!
Atleast to me its not interesting or entertaining.
@@droe2570 Sry but where was the World building and Plot Movement? Being on an Asteroid is not much of World building, for me it felt (mostly) like filler. The Han and Leia Relationship could have happened somewhere else on a more interesting Location. Let Boba Fett or other Bounty Hunters Hunt them through some Citys or Villages, that would have made Act 2 more exiting. Kinda like Terminator 1 with Kyle Reeves and Sarah Connor.
Maybe i'm a bit too harsh on it, but it bothers me everytime i watch this Movie ^^
The best example of Vader choking people is KK choking the OT, only to replace it with products and terrible films. I am very much looking forward to not watching E9 of this successful TROLLOGY!
Sounds just like the second Transformers movie. ⚙️
Will you consider starting you're videos with some guitar?
Sure. did that with all my music theory vids.
While I do acknowledge it is the best, as a kid it was always my least favorite (of the originals) because it’s so dark. It would actually kind of depress me. Even the color pallet is gloomy. Great movie... a masterpiece in many ways (the climax with Luke vs. Vader) but when talking about enjoyability, I’ll take a New hope or return (even with Ewoks) any day.
Yesterday my father and I watched the second Pacific Rim movie. Our reaction to it was very different, and showed the difference in opinion between us in a unique way.
We both agreed it was too glossy a movie; too much conveniently went both right and wrong for the sake of plot, too little on our heroes' side permanently died or broke, whereas in the first movie (the one made by DelToro) the stakes were real and continually progressed throughout the movie. He said "this is fine"; I said this made the movie extremely disappointing.
After talking on Miles Morales some, he used an analogy to explain his viewpoint. "Betty [my wife] and I were watching a movie yesterday and she just kept asking me over and over what this word meant and that word meant. They just used all these big words, which were unnecessary and really drew her out of it. I just think that movies should tone down stuff like that for a general audience. These things should be accessible to anyone. If you're going to hire such big name actors why limit your market like that?" (Apparently it was just a mediocre Shakespeare themed movie, making the big words obligatory.)
I tried to explain that while he did indeed provide a good example of a specific issue that should've been fixed, I do overall think there's nothing wrong with selling to a limited (niche) market. (You know, because that's what George Lucas, JRR Tolkien, and the like all did?) He angrily cut off the conversation and refused to continue, not even allowing me to explain the merit in creating something not accessible to quite literally anyone who watches it. Betty is an immigrant who hasn't learned a great many things about America after ten plus years living here, and just so happens to like very different things than the rest of the family; in his mind nearly everything must be toned down to her level, especially if it was a large budget film.
It's this exact mentality - that everything should be for everyone - that creates the glossy, meaningless, dare I say morally disgusting perfect happy ending of so many recent Hollywood fluff. While I think that everyone should have something, no one thing should be for everyone. And this is something the classic greats like George Lucas understood. Not many people remember this today (and at 21 I wasn't around to see it firsthand) but there was a small yet tangible fan backlash to Empire. And to this day, even people who like A New Hope often don't like the entire original trilogy; in fact Empire and Return's extreme character focus just didn't draw me in like it clearly drew you in, David and anyone else reading. To this day the Original Trilogy I don't like all that much despite being a Star Wars fan, I much prefer the worldbuilding focus of stories like KotOR. It's not for everyone and that's okay. In order to refine your work in any tangible way you thereby need to alienate some other people. This is just the nature of storytelling.
And this is part of what made Empire resonate with so many. It knew what it was and didn't strive to be anything and everything else too, unlike Disney Star Wars. If you try to appeal to everyone you've therefore appealed to no one.
And that's what (truly) makes Empire great. It's one of the best movies that I just personally don't enjoy. It's something I can respect whilst even preferring it had focused on other aspects of the universe. It's an amazing movie hands down.
Why people love the Empire Strikes Back is because the real good guys won this time. That's all.
Vader and the emperor?
Guess what Original Trilogy film had the least input from George Lucas?
I literally feel smarter anytime I watch your stuff. I still talk to people about your pyramid of effect.
The worst one in my experience. I'm no SW fan anyways, but found other episodes at least bearable, and Episode 3 actually good. This was the only one I couldn't even sit through, it was just too full of the old space opera clichés to take seriously in 2010's. Of course, I also watched them out of order and with partial knowledge of the plot, just as it became a part of popular culture
There this idea being thrown around about a "Western-specific" monomyth.
Basically the idea is, many of the most influential Western works - Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, classic Marvel comics, and the like - are very influential. So influential in fact that there's this false notion going around that what these pieces of media did are in some way the "objectively best way" to tell a story. In a sense these false necessities were added to the Western canon slowly over generations, leading to elements being "added to" the True Monomyth in order to create a very limiting, if not downright troublesome "Western-specific Monomyth". And (as the idea's advocates will claim) it's in confirming to this shallow, badly defined "Western Monomyth" that our modern creative world has gotten so stale, so plagiorious, so vapid and hollow.
Unfortunately this idea is still in its infancy so I don't think anyone has sat down and really written out in full all the false "necessities" Westerners have "added" to the True Monomyth to corrupt it. But I do ascribe to the idea as legitimate. And to speak constructively, I do think you yourself, David, fall into this trap more often than you'd like - the trap of "the objectively best way to write", which echoes what a lot of other Westerners falsely think is the "objectively best way to write".
For example all these works were uniquely character driven. And I understand that you yourself prefer a story to be very character driven. But I know a be great many series where characterization is best left secondary to worldbuilding (my personal favorites), and series where both are best left secondary to the core narrative conflict, and stories where all three are best secondary to the story's themes and message, and stories where the sheer absurdism is the focus, and et cetera. What works for one story won't necessarily be the best for another, and for each story an author needs to think long and hard about what works best for that *specific* narrative.
It's a common trap amateur writers get stuck in over their entire literary career, this laughable notion of "it worked for another person therefore it'll work for me"; no, that's not how fiction works pal, you're just hurting yourself in the long haul. I know some writers are at their best whilst focusing on character, and I know many more who just aren't; my own work is best when focusing jointly on worldbuilding and theming, and bringing about character development as a result of those two aspects. When I get too character focused, to fit this shallow Western narrative that is perpetuated by both incestuous, shallow old Hollywood and small, careful writing channels like your own, my work suffers for it.
So, constructive criticism? I'd love for you to highlight, even in just a single video that one time, how transient and situational a lot of your recommendations truly are. What you're saying should be taken as advice to be used carefully, not literalized facts to be taken too seriously. I am fighting something of a losing battle with budding Western creators that if they'd just break out if this shell other people crafted for them, they'd finally come into their own and start making bank off their work. All they'd need to do is create their own formula, as opposed to sticking to the formula crafted for them by other people.
6 -> 5 -> 3 -> 4 -> 1 -> 2 🤷
Patreon boycott ?
A big reason is "The baddies have won." Luke 1 hand, solo frozen, Vader announced as Luke's dad.
It is obviously difficult for most films to end that way.
I think we forget that Luke has such a short time of Yoda training. People dis last Jedi for only showing Rey having only a day or 2 from Luke, but that is at least as much Luke is shown having.
daniel webb I’m pretty sure people hate the last Jedi for many more things other than the Rey storyline..
First
Let me defend the prequels for a bit.
I think most people don't have a full picture of what the prequels are really about. The books essentially really set up revenge of the sith to be a massive tipping point only to be swung by another massive tipping point in a new hope. The person that really should have been focused more was palpatine. We never really got to see what he did behind the scenes with plagues to gain his political power and successfully wipe out the jedi in one swoop. I can bet you that most star wars fans have no idea why the trade federation invaded naboo in the first place in TPM.
Yes the writing was bad at times but I can argue that the OT also has clunky and robotic dialogue as well.
The books and prequels also more meaning to the force as well. The OT's interpretation of the force was pretty black and white. But the books/prequels gave it more grey spots. It's more like christianity vs evolution. The jedi value the preservation of life while the dark side of the force believed that mankind should reach it's full potential. What is right or wrong is less clear and that's why I like it more.
Wrong! Star Wars III is the best!
People love it because it is more than 30 years old. If it would be released in today´s internet age, so called fans would tear it to shreds without a shadow of a doubt.
fundhund62 Do you often talk about a hypothetical scenario that is completely impossible and then draw conclusions from it as statements of fact?
Hmm. Ok. Gonna have to disagree with you on this. This fan LOVED it. And I was not alone.
We would tear it to shreds....? Nope.
Count me as “shadow” AND “doubt.”
@@brianomdahl8377 We all loved it. That's not the point.
The point is that the reception of films was vastly different before the internet days.
There a plenty of strange scenes in the OT (even plotholes), and if the films were to be released today, there would be countless videos pointing them out.
Plus, almost anybody calls movies they don't like "objectively bad" these days, and TESB wouldn't be spared!
That's all I'm saying.
Take for example the love story. Han is acting pretty creepy indeed, and he oversteps Leia's "no" countless times!
Today's audiences wouldn't have that kind of behavior, and we who grew up on the films accept it only because of nostalgia.
fundhund62 Fair point. The Internet allows people to [safely] be a jerk to one or ALL of us and get away with socially inappropriate comments. I will give you that.
However, when I saw Empire I was 12. And the film connected with me on so many levels. The idea of me going on the internet and “trashing” it just to be a jerk - I really don’t see myself doing that. And, I don’t think I would be alone in that feeling.
Your point about Han and his not taking Leia’s initial rebuff. Valid point. In 2019 sexual politics, Han would likely be viewed by some militant PC folks as being too aggressive, and Leia could file sexual harassment charges with General Rieekan if she wanted. Is that a commentary more reflecting 2019...? Or more reflecting the internet...? Would I - as a 12 year old kid - be offended by Han and his “charm” attempts on Leia that I would turn to the internet and shred it?? I don’t think so. I was 12. Han was Harrison Ford and charming enough. And, it seemed to work on Leia - she fell for him and admitted as much before Han was frozen in carbonite.
I might see myself chatting with folks about “I can’t believe Vader is Luke’s dad!! No way! Unbelievable! Wow....”. But again, I was INTRIGUED by the idea of where this would take the story. I accepted Luke’s situation just as Luke did when he and Leia are gazing off into that nebula as the Falcon with Lando and Chewie aboard race off toward Tatooine to save Han. I don’t see myself complaining and being an ass on the internet over this.
I was sold. Hook, line and sinker.
I see your point. I just don’t see myself and kids my age doing that. Adults, maybe. Internet trolls abound, and the majority are likely over the age of 18 with a lot of time on their hands and enjoy venting their rage at the world in posts on the net. Kids my age might speculate and wonder at what story points RotJ might bring. But to be honest, at 12, I was way into reading and re-reading the Brian Daley and Alan Dean Foster books. And of course, the Star Wars book by George Lucas.
I was a fan. Those were good days. And I don’t see myself actively sabotaging that good feeling.
I appreciate your response though. No profanity, no insults and no attempt to belittle me. I salute you! :)
@@brianomdahl8377 You seem to take my comment a bit personal, though. I don't know you, and of course I'm not claiming that you specifically would "tear it to shreds".
It's more like this:
You emphasize again and again how intrigued you were by the film, and how you immersed yourself in that world.
But that's precisely what the internet takes away from people!
I have stopped counting how many people on YT have told me over the years that they used to enjoy (even "love") the prequels, but then they watched the Plinkett reviews, and decided not to like them anymore.
That not only shows many people today are unable to stick up for their opinion.
First and foremost it emphasizes my main point:
We didn't have a whole internet community screaming at us about wooden acting, stilted dialogue or plotholes in 1980!
We enjoyed what we enjoyed, and that was it.
As for Han and Leia, the problem does not lie with the 2019 political correctness.
Han's behavior is offensive (and very immature) indeed, and in real life almost any self-respecting woman would kick him to the curb immediately.
It's one of those silly Hollywood tropes that mistakes stalking for love, and it's a big flaw of the film indeed.
I hate it.