I write songs in my dreams. I have to rush words into them before I forget the melody. I had a dream I was Sting's studio arranger, conducting a school choir for the chorus of his song. That was 40 years ago. I still remember the melody. I still dream new songs.
Same, its fairly easy..i used to play league of legends alot to the point that sometimes i would dream about the game ..i realised i was playing it too much and stopped but realised that since i didnt dream of music maybe it ment i wasnt taking it as serious as i should . So i started my idea of uppin the hours of my music training both vocals writting and mix n master to the point where as calculated it seeped into my subconscious therefore it started showing in my dreams .... as we know the subconscious is us but also things we are not conscious about so melodies and lyrics from the subconscious are really cool and diffrent than what our conscious would create . Ofcourse your gonna have to have a voice recorder and/or a notepad ready to pass it on before you forget the dream... but whatever you do the lesson is do it enough so that you can dream about it..if not ...up the hours ... its a hack since your conscious and subconscious together are more efficient than solely your concscious !
The reversed model is the method I use .. Since I was kid I write down how songs was constructed .. Carpenters, Thin Lizzy etc etc .. and still do today as a almost 62 year old, after a massive stroke.
Edgar Allan Poe describes a similar backwards process in Philosophy of Composition using his poem The Raven as an example. Thank you for the video. Really great.
I tend to do that quite a bit. in fact, I collect titles. i write them down in songbooks. I often have a page just full of titles waiting for ideas and every now and gain, when I am looking for an idea, I'll go through the titles to find something that fits or has appeal. A title can be a phrase I have heard or something that seems to carry something, meaning, something that often has a double meaning or is ambiguous. I find it saves a lot of headaches....often....not always!
The other thing instructive about “message in a bottle” is that it is a good example of a song lyric entirely comprised of an extended metaphor - the song isn’t literally about a castaway lost at sea, but it completely commits to the metaphor right to the end of the song, never explicitly saying “and THAT (the cultural cliche we all recognise of the castaway sending a message in a bottle or trying to send an SOS) is a bit like being me, a lonely person unable to connect with others, and mistakenly believing I’m the only one who feels that way”
Wow... I just understood why the best songs I've written so far are in their ranks: I've written some lines and then some more and then realized what I wrote first works better as the end and vice versa. Didn't expect I did something very common there... 😮
Reading all the comments here is as interesting as the video itself. I like hearing how folks create. I know for myself, just attacking music in some form as often as possible, everyday in a perfect world, has never directly resulted in a great song for me , yet it can help me get bits and pieces. The good songs, the ones I love, always come to me at inconvenient times like in the shower or driving at midnight. And at the time I usually don’t know what they are actually about. I just write the words down and record the Melody’s as best as possible. Often the next day I will realize the meaning and wrk from there
Very good video, full of useful insight. I was trying for ages to write a novel - had the characters all there, and knew roughly what I wanted to happen. But it wasn't working. And then I put some music on one day, with one of my favourite bands: Eels. I like Mark Everett's songs because he has themes that are very relevant to my own life and view of the world: alienation, being on the 'outside looking in', not conforming, having a bit of an absurdist take on the it all. I like his dark humour, too - something that was in my novel. Songs that resonate particularly are 'Things The Grandchildren Should Know', and 'The Love of The Loveless' - and as soon as I replayed that latter, I knew I had the title for the novel! And since then, I've been working to the idea suggested in that title (and the song itself), and everything has started to come together. Song titles don't just inspire songwriters! Incidentally, I once wrote a prize-winning short story that was inspired by the title of a Florence and the Machine song: 'My Boy Builds Coffins.' The novelist John Irving says he writes each novel by writing the last line first, then working the rest of the book towards it.
It doesn’t always have be the title and/or refrain that comes first. I just finished a song with the first line “settle down..”. I then asked myself “Who are you talking to, and why do think they need to settle down”? The lyrics practically wrote themselves once I answered the question. I’m not disputing the idea of the video. I think it’s a great way to get started. I’m just suggesting the initial line doesn’t necessarily have to be the refrain. I’m glad I didn’t try to write my song with the refrain “settle down, settle down, settle down.”
A filmmaker was asked how he came up with the concept of a film he created and he said it all started with a button, and he gradually began to sew an entire suit around it. For me that's the concept of starting with the title and working backwards.
Mr. Gordon Sumner was indeed an English teacher for a time before their music career started to take off. Taste may be subjective and all that, but it was his lyrics to "Fortress Around Your Heart" and "Mad About You" that first caught my ear after The Police were no longer active. I'll have to check out those two tunes you've mentioned -- thank you, kindly! -- as i don't recall having heard them yet.
Great lesson! In Places We Won't Walk by Bruno Major has that beautiful last line chorus idea Sunlight dances off the leaves Birds of red color the trees Flowers filled with buzzin' bees In places we won't walk Neon lights shine bold and bright Buildings grow to dizzy heights People come alive at night In places we won't walk Children cry and laugh and play Slowly hair will turn to gray We will smile to end each day In places we won't walk Family look on in awe Petals decorate the floor Waves gently stroke the shore In places we won't walk Children cry and laugh and play Slowly hair will turn to gray We will smile to end each day In places we won't walk
I make instrumental hybrid/orchestral mysic mostly...I never start at rhe beginning. I cone up with the loudest, most energetic part of the song dynamically and work my way backwards, stripping away instruments.
I agree with all of this, and my process is different every time...sometimes similar but never identical. I sometimes start with a chorus/main line idea (or a main thought or feeling I'm trying to convey) or sometimes from a riff, or progression I build around. But one thing I would add to all of this...and I've heard many famous songwriters talk about this (like Mr Lennon) is the concept of time... (and not like 4/4). I mean, if you have some spark of an idea that gets you writing this great idea you have...you HAVE to do it kind of fast..and try to finish it right then. Otherwise, if you try to pick it up at a later time, you will realize how difficult it is to summon that same "feeling" or idea. And that makes it REALLY hard to finish the song.
curiously I can think of at least a few songs Sting has done where the moon is an integral part of the song. Walking on the Moon, Sister Moon, Moon over Bourbon Street. I never noticed that before, he must be a night owl.
Great video lesson! Thank you! "Every Breath You Take" doesn't follow the AABA structure with the title as refrain. Nevertheless, this video is instructive.
Nice one brother. Pat Pattison in his book 'Writing Better Lyrics' calls this refrain line the 'power placement', he also goes into detail with a dissection of the Paul Simon song you used as a ref. I think Dylan and Springsteen do this so well.
I’ve heard it said that most all musicians write from a melody or chord progression. Contrary to that idea is the lyricist, who starts with a lyrical idea and forms the song around that. You can do both, but Sting sounds like the latter.
"Message in a Bottle" is slick because it plays with the idea of isolation without being on-the-nose about it. The song isn't literally about a shipwrecked person, but it leans into the whole feeling of solitude. It uses the whole message-sending thing as a big picture way of saying how it feels to be alone and shouting into the void, hoping someone will shout back. It skirts around stating the obvious and lets you know it's about reaching out when you're feeling solo, which, tbh, is pretty relatable for most of us.
I think another key element to the song is that the lyrics tell you that there are "A hundred Billion" others that feel the same. It's the feeling of loneliness circled in that he's not the only one! That's the real heart of it.
I heard about writing from the end. But damn, I always start by fining the main chorus melody ---> translate the feeling into lyrics ---> then I start the verse and during the verse I figure out a pre chorus and a bridge or a pre chorus melody that could fit as a bridge. It always takes me 2x the time to make the last 4 lines of the ending and it takes me days to choose a title.
Sting wrote the guitar part. Certainly some credit goes to whoever applied a whopping amount of "Chorus' (an electronic effects that generates notes at constant intervals above the input note, allowing the user to blend the "new" notes with the original to whatever degree she or he wants. The chorus effect is featured on lots of Police recordings. It's almost a "signature". However, the effect is used much less on the group's last two albums)
WOW! Interesting. Because often, when the lyrics doesn’t come in a flow, I do it a kind of that way too. But not as structured as this. I write tons of lines around the refrain or title, and puzzle them together, where I prioritise the last and first line. The first line is a trigger, and in the last line I aim to mirror the trigger and resolve the verse towards the chorus. The lines in the middle are amplifiers and connectors. In the end I pick the best verses.
If you work like that, how do you make sure you end up with verses that work for (what I understand are the very distinct functions of) first and second verse? I write in a very structured way, like an essay-which points do I want to make, and what is the clearest order in which to introduce them?
@@felixmarques Even when I write many lines (far more than necessary) I need to do some changes, and often make a whole new line or two to make it fit. I do even use unused lines from “other songs.” The once I never used. So yes, the process is far more complex than what I first described. And I even switch the first and second vers sometimes.
I don't much like Sting's music but I've not problem hailing him as a brilliant songwriter - the song itself is a masterpiece and the Machinehead cover gives me chills every time.
I work backwards too. I imagine the crowd cheering at the end of the song and then think "Hmm...what chords and melody would generate that level of applause?"
I have written a song in reverse once. Someone commented on a Facebook post mentioning chasing happy clouds. So I wrote a song titled Happy Clouds . I wrote the chorus first then the verses and the bridge last.
I'll give this a try. I have the music and a melody for a song already, but no idea whatsoever for the lyrics. All I know about the sound is that it is an anthem or vow of some kind.
What's fascinating, "Message In A Bottle" was written in a very literal way... it doesn't sound like Sting was trying to inject subtext or anything, it was ltierally about the experience of being on a desert island. But AFTER THE FACT, to the listener, it becomes metaphorical and subtextual. Maybe that's the lesson, don't try too hard to be deep or profound, let the listeners do that work for you
I didn't know that about Sting, very interesting... funny enough, I tend to have the same process for writing my songs! And me without knowing it ! 😂 thanks for the great video 👐
Awesome video! the info about stings process confirms my own insights, and the example of still crazy After all these years was perfect! I always have loved the beers/years part and you explained it so well. this is, to me, all about using one's intuition, logic and sophisticated human angelic intelligence to make form come alive, as it bubbles up from within and without
Great video, very inspiring, thank You! I see an interesting relation to theatrical improvisation. I play a comedic musical act where this is what I do: The audience will give me three words and a music style, out of which I make a song, on the spot. Most of the time, that magic you talk about will happen. I cannot always tell where my ideas come from, but aiming for these three given words will logically lead me to the events in which I can use them. From my personal experience, I like the ‘linear’ way of writing, too: Start from a first line and just see where it will lead me. But of course, if we try to create definite, completed songs, your advice will help! It’s always good to push creativity by looking at things from different perspectives and changing angles.
Instead of using "song forms" one can use poetic forms. Dylan used the 14 line sonnet form for his song "Tangled Up In Blue" (which makes sense because in the song he speaks of "an Italian poet from the 13th century").
I recently read that a Rock icon said that the Beatles' "I saw her standing there" is the greatest song lyric ever written. I guess the the guy never heard the Police's "Every little thing she does is magic."
One thing that makes Sting's top-down method so effective is that Sting has read a full library - he's immensely well read and extremely knowledgeable of classic literature from Ishtar to Hemingway... all expertly capturing or illustrating the timelessness of the human experience. So hey - you kids stay in school and do your homework and one day you might write like Sting :)
Well, at 6:20 he's talking about the most common form of structure for modern songs. He's not necessarily talking about the process, or method, got how to arrive at a finished song of that particular form. But give him a break, he's a musician, not a logician.
@@FenlonAcoustic No, it doesn't matter what you call him, he contradicted himself. He clearly stated that he works backwards from the title EVERY SONG. Well, that's a repeatable method. You can't say "I write songs this way" then later say "there's no repeatable method for writing songs" I understand that he feels like every song is a mystery and puzzle to be figured out but he admitted to SOME kind of method and so you need to get your brain straight and if there are repeatable methods, then you can't say "there is no repeatable method". Songwriting IS a craft and as such, it can be taught and learned and repeatable. Whether people like them is another matter.
"there's no good having a first good line". Come on now Virginia don't make me wait, the catholic girls always start much too late. I still remember the 35 sweet goodbyes when they put me on the wolverine up to Anandale. You know that it would be untrue, you know that I would be a liar if I were say to you girl we couldn't get much higher. There's a lot of great songs that start with a good first line.
Sitting in my car Sitting in the drive waaay Sitting here too long Think ill go back in way ill send an sos from my phone Ill send an sos from my phone Ill send an sos from my phone
Hmmm. I've been a songwriter for 46 years. My songs have been published and sold around the world, and two of my songs are part of America's Smithsonian Institutes Collection. I'm not sure that I agree with anything you said. First, nearly any explanation anyone gives you for anything they do is not necessarly true. Our fantastically complex brain run countless processes concurrently when doing things far more simple than composing. If the lyric writing strategy works for anyone, great, use it. But in my estimation, writing the music of a song is a much harder thing to do and it is the music that people generally are most moved by. Sting's Message in a Bottle is a great example. In my opinion, the lyric is mediocre and I'd bet a lot that the song was a big hit in lots of countries where most people don't speak English. Why would that be? Well, you could point to Sting's bass line which is rhythmically fairly simple with a note progression of C#, A, B, F" (up in next octave). It's perfect. A more complex line would just take away. But, while perfectly matched to the song, that bass line didn't shoot the song up the charts. What did? That's easy: The singing and the guitar part. The guitar part is catchy as hell, and whether most listeners remember it or could identify the notes is irrelevant. Like Sting's singing on this and many other songs, that and this guitar, according to me, are about 80% of the song. ps I love Stewart Copeland's playing on this and many other Police songs, but I doubt that the drums have much to do with made so many Police songs find homes in our heads pps I think that Copeland's drumming may well have been part of what made Roxanne unique and very catchy
video: "here's how sting writes lyrics; back to front and free association" yt comment: "as an expert in song writing, the reason this one specific song mentioned is great has nothing to do with the lyrics" 😂
@@fl3077 Have a listen to both. I was amazed. Every Breath is chord for chord More Than I Can Say. Sayer's song was released the year before. I much prefer Every Breath (Summer's guitar is brilliant), but I suspect Sting 'borrowed' Sayer's song.
Funny that Sting has a title first, I have been doing that for years. I will not even start a new song without a worthy title. I think if you give a creative process a pedestrian name, it can reflect if you let it and vice versa. By the way. You are Australian but I notice you have a slight American accent?
Shame this video is not about songwriting, but lyric writing. Probably the main reason for Sting's success at songwriting is his melodies & those I feel are the most fascinating & important aspects of his songs.
Like already posted here: this video is not about songwriting, but lyric writing. English speaking guys often think that the lyrics are important for success. I don't think so. In 50/60/70 only few spoke english and could understand the lyrics of pop songs if it's not their mother language. But songs from Elvis, the Beatles, Stones, Queen, The Police, Pink Floyd and so on were huge hits WORLDWIDE. So it's about the melody, the sound, the voice and not about the songs. Guess how many people loved Zappa's Bobby Brown...and had no clue what he was singing about. And if they understood the lyrics.... ;-) :-)
the story of finding a hundred billion bottles, is copied by Sting from the song the ‘tie a yellow ribbon round the old oak tree, if you still want me..’ , and ending with ‘ .. a hundred yellow ribbons round the old oak tree’ . There’s litterature from the Middle Ages where these stories already exist.
I don't know about 'no good having a great first line' What about 'Have you seen your mother baby standing in the shadow'...That's about the only hook in the song.I'm sure there's many others....But hey what do I know✌️
While I understand what he was saying about using song form, I disagree that you're supposed to use ABABCB form. I think every song you write, if you have a topic, an idea or story, it will have its own inherent structure. Much the way that an essay needs to be shaped in the accurate shape of your idea (a paragraph for every argument, inductive or deductive order, maybe headings for sections, asides, etc.), a song forced to fit the verse/chorus/bridge form might not work as well as it would in strophic form, or 32-bar AABA form, or rondó (ABACADA…) form, or through-composed (ABCD…), etc. Figure out the best order for what you want to say. Do you have an idea that deserves being repeated, or should you refuse to have a chorus at all, and focus on making the verses and main riff catchy? And so on.
That’s all fine, but so many other great songwriters don’t like this method. Paul McCartney for example wants to come into songwriting with zero idea, and zero intellectual methodologies. He wants to let the music just tell him what the song is about, and enjoy the discovery from his subconscious or the universal river of song. I’m with Paul on this one.
Interesting, but musically useless - no discussion of the novel harmonic and rhythmic structures of the Police (how much did they co-compose in studio?), or why Sting's work after that was relatively conventional. This is a discussion of some sort of poetry, not of songwriting.
"Message in a Bottle". Really? Great guitar riff (thanks, Andy), but a bit repetitive perhaps (48 times?) The lyrics so banal (and repetetive) it's an insult to the intelligence of anyone over the age of five. Pseudo Jamacan accent somewhat toe curling? (I'll get me coat)
I write songs in my dreams. I have to rush words into them before I forget the melody.
I had a dream I was Sting's studio arranger, conducting a school choir for the chorus of his song.
That was 40 years ago. I still remember the melody. I still dream new songs.
Let's record it
Same, its fairly easy..i used to play league of legends alot to the point that sometimes i would dream about the game ..i realised i was playing it too much and stopped but realised that since i didnt dream of music maybe it ment i wasnt taking it as serious as i should .
So i started my idea of uppin the hours of my music training both vocals writting and mix n master to the point where as calculated it seeped into my subconscious therefore it started showing in my dreams .... as we know the subconscious is us but also things we are not conscious about so melodies and lyrics from the subconscious are really cool and diffrent than what our conscious would create .
Ofcourse your gonna have to have a voice recorder and/or a notepad ready to pass it on before you forget the dream... but whatever you do the lesson is do it enough so that you can dream about it..if not ...up the hours ... its a hack since your conscious and subconscious together are more efficient than solely your concscious !
The reversed model is the method I use .. Since I was kid I write down how songs was constructed .. Carpenters, Thin Lizzy etc etc .. and still do today as a almost 62 year old, after a massive stroke.
Edgar Allan Poe describes a similar backwards process in Philosophy of Composition using his poem The Raven as an example. Thank you for the video. Really great.
Nevermore!
Backwards writing like I.
Thanks, I'm curious to check that out...
I tend to do that quite a bit. in fact, I collect titles. i write them down in songbooks. I often have a page just full of titles waiting for ideas and every now and gain, when I am looking for an idea, I'll go through the titles to find something that fits or has appeal. A title can be a phrase I have heard or something that seems to carry something, meaning, something that often has a double meaning or is ambiguous. I find it saves a lot of headaches....often....not always!
The other thing instructive about “message in a bottle” is that it is a good example of a song lyric entirely comprised of an extended metaphor - the song isn’t literally about a castaway lost at sea, but it completely commits to the metaphor right to the end of the song, never explicitly saying “and THAT (the cultural cliche we all recognise of the castaway sending a message in a bottle or trying to send an SOS) is a bit like being me, a lonely person unable to connect with others, and mistakenly believing I’m the only one who feels that way”
Classic! 🎶✨️ we are all lonely!
Yes! Also, the message is not too obvious nor too hidden - the right balance. Super songwriting.
So lonely!
Yes, I’ve been there… connection with other people is KEY to navigating this life!!!
Wow... I just understood why the best songs I've written so far are in their ranks: I've written some lines and then some more and then realized what I wrote first works better as the end and vice versa. Didn't expect I did something very common there... 😮
Reading all the comments here is as interesting as the video itself. I like hearing how folks create. I know for myself, just attacking music in some form as often as possible, everyday in a perfect world, has never directly resulted in a great song for me , yet it can help me get bits and pieces. The good songs, the ones I love, always come to me at inconvenient times like in the shower or driving at midnight. And at the time I usually don’t know what they are actually about. I just write the words down and record the Melody’s as best as possible. Often the next day I will realize the meaning and wrk from there
Great episode!
Thanks
Very good video, full of useful insight. I was trying for ages to write a novel - had the characters all there, and knew roughly what I wanted to happen. But it wasn't working. And then I put some music on one day, with one of my favourite bands: Eels. I like Mark Everett's songs because he has themes that are very relevant to my own life and view of the world: alienation, being on the 'outside looking in', not conforming, having a bit of an absurdist take on the it all. I like his dark humour, too - something that was in my novel. Songs that resonate particularly are 'Things The Grandchildren Should Know', and 'The Love of The Loveless' - and as soon as I replayed that latter, I knew I had the title for the novel! And since then, I've been working to the idea suggested in that title (and the song itself), and everything has started to come together. Song titles don't just inspire songwriters! Incidentally, I once wrote a prize-winning short story that was inspired by the title of a Florence and the Machine song: 'My Boy Builds Coffins.' The novelist John Irving says he writes each novel by writing the last line first, then working the rest of the book towards it.
It doesn’t always have be the title and/or refrain that comes first. I just finished a song with the first line “settle down..”. I then asked myself “Who are you talking to, and why do think they need to settle down”? The lyrics practically wrote themselves once I answered the question. I’m not disputing the idea of the video. I think it’s a great way to get started. I’m just suggesting the initial line doesn’t necessarily have to be the refrain. I’m glad I didn’t try to write my song with the refrain “settle down, settle down, settle down.”
If I could record with him one time I would love to meet Sting. He is a beautiful person and artist.
A filmmaker was asked how he came up with the concept of a film he created and he said it all started with a button, and he gradually began to sew an entire suit around it. For me that's the concept of starting with the title and working backwards.
Really helpful, Sting is an incredible songwriter
This has become my new favorite channel. I almost wonder If I'm allowed to learn these secrets.
Thanks!
By far, one of the best lyricists in the business. If you want a great example listen to "Dead Man's Rope" or "Book Of My Life"
Mr. Gordon Sumner was indeed an English teacher for a time before their music career started to take off. Taste may be subjective and all that, but it was his lyrics to "Fortress Around Your Heart" and "Mad About You" that first caught my ear after The Police were no longer active. I'll have to check out those two tunes you've mentioned -- thank you, kindly! -- as i don't recall having heard them yet.
He starts with the title!? Holy shit! Brilliant! I never thought of that! 🙄
Great lesson! In Places We Won't Walk by Bruno Major has that beautiful last line chorus idea
Sunlight dances off the leaves
Birds of red color the trees
Flowers filled with buzzin' bees
In places we won't walk
Neon lights shine bold and bright
Buildings grow to dizzy heights
People come alive at night
In places we won't walk
Children cry and laugh and play
Slowly hair will turn to gray
We will smile to end each day
In places we won't walk
Family look on in awe
Petals decorate the floor
Waves gently stroke the shore
In places we won't walk
Children cry and laugh and play
Slowly hair will turn to gray
We will smile to end each day
In places we won't walk
I make instrumental hybrid/orchestral mysic mostly...I never start at rhe beginning. I cone up with the loudest, most energetic part of the song dynamically and work my way backwards, stripping away instruments.
I agree with all of this, and my process is different every time...sometimes similar but never identical. I sometimes start with a chorus/main line idea (or a main thought or feeling I'm trying to convey) or sometimes from a riff, or progression I build around. But one thing I would add to all of this...and I've heard many famous songwriters talk about this (like Mr Lennon) is the concept of time... (and not like 4/4). I mean, if you have some spark of an idea that gets you writing this great idea you have...you HAVE to do it kind of fast..and try to finish it right then. Otherwise, if you try to pick it up at a later time, you will realize how difficult it is to summon that same "feeling" or idea. And that makes it REALLY hard to finish the song.
curiously I can think of at least a few songs Sting has done where the moon is an integral part of the song. Walking on the Moon, Sister Moon, Moon over Bourbon Street. I never noticed that before, he must be a night owl.
These are some great tips; thanks for sharing!
I'll say this, I've never heard this explained so clearly in my life. Thank you so much! I will pass this information on.😊😊😊😊😊😊
Great video lesson! Thank you! "Every Breath You Take" doesn't follow the AABA structure with the title as refrain. Nevertheless, this video is instructive.
Thank you for sharing.
Happy Songwriting!
Nice one brother. Pat Pattison in his book 'Writing Better Lyrics' calls this refrain line the 'power placement', he also goes into detail with a dissection of the Paul Simon song you used as a ref. I think Dylan and Springsteen do this so well.
I’ve heard it said that most all musicians write from a melody or chord progression. Contrary to that idea is the lyricist, who starts with a lyrical idea and forms the song around that. You can do both, but Sting sounds like the latter.
Thanks for sharing this…and I LOVE the Sodajerker Podcast! So good, and so is yours!
"Message in a Bottle" is slick because it plays with the idea of isolation without being on-the-nose about it. The song isn't literally about a shipwrecked person, but it leans into the whole feeling of solitude. It uses the whole message-sending thing as a big picture way of saying how it feels to be alone and shouting into the void, hoping someone will shout back. It skirts around stating the obvious and lets you know it's about reaching out when you're feeling solo, which, tbh, is pretty relatable for most of us.
I think another key element to the song is that the lyrics tell you that there are "A hundred Billion" others that feel the same. It's the feeling of loneliness circled in that he's not the only one! That's the real heart of it.
I heard about writing from the end. But damn, I always start by fining the main chorus melody ---> translate the feeling into lyrics ---> then I start the verse and during the verse I figure out a pre chorus and a bridge or a pre chorus melody that could fit as a bridge. It always takes me 2x the time to make the last 4 lines of the ending and it takes me days to choose a title.
Sting wrote the guitar part. Certainly some credit goes to whoever applied a whopping amount of "Chorus' (an electronic effects that generates notes at constant intervals above the input note, allowing the user to blend the "new" notes with the original to whatever degree she or he wants. The chorus effect is featured on lots of Police recordings. It's almost a "signature". However, the effect is used much less on the group's last two albums)
Good advice, particularly starting with the last line of the verse and working backwards. I usually do that too.
Too that do usually I.
Fantastic he was in Newcastle last week and Dave Stewart was in Sunderland local lads
Did he put on his "Geordie" accent?
Very very helpful 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
WOW! Interesting. Because often, when the lyrics doesn’t come in a flow, I do it a kind of that way too. But not as structured as this. I write tons of lines around the refrain or title, and puzzle them together, where I prioritise the last and first line. The first line is a trigger, and in the last line I aim to mirror the trigger and resolve the verse towards the chorus. The lines in the middle are amplifiers and connectors. In the end I pick the best verses.
If you work like that, how do you make sure you end up with verses that work for (what I understand are the very distinct functions of) first and second verse? I write in a very structured way, like an essay-which points do I want to make, and what is the clearest order in which to introduce them?
@@felixmarques
Even when I write many lines (far more than necessary) I need to do some changes, and often make a whole new line or two to make it fit. I do even use unused lines from “other songs.” The once I never used. So yes, the process is far more complex than what I first described. And I even switch the first and second vers sometimes.
So, the songwriter doesn't use the process, the process uses the songwriter! We're the "beast"...and have to stay open to all the "hunters" tricks!
That's pretty much been my experience.
I don't much like Sting's music but I've not problem hailing him as a brilliant songwriter - the song itself is a masterpiece and the Machinehead cover gives me chills every time.
I work backwards too. I imagine the crowd cheering at the end of the song and then think "Hmm...what chords and melody would generate that level of applause?"
I put drum charts upside down then go full Tommy Lee on them.
I prefer to start with the royalty cheques. I write my name on the back and then it's tea time.
Absolutely fantastic! Thank you!
I've always wrote music first then lyrics but I am a Sting fan 💚
I have written a song in reverse once. Someone commented on a Facebook post mentioning chasing happy clouds. So I wrote a song titled Happy Clouds . I wrote the chorus first then the verses and the bridge last.
When I try to do the same thing I did for a song I really liked it never works.
I'll give this a try. I have the music and a melody for a song already, but no idea whatsoever for the lyrics. All I know about the sound is that it is an anthem or vow of some kind.
What's fascinating, "Message In A Bottle" was written in a very literal way... it doesn't sound like Sting was trying to inject subtext or anything, it was ltierally about the experience of being on a desert island. But AFTER THE FACT, to the listener, it becomes metaphorical and subtextual. Maybe that's the lesson, don't try too hard to be deep or profound, let the listeners do that work for you
Really great video. Thank you!!
I didn't know that about Sting, very interesting... funny enough, I tend to have the same process for writing my songs! And me without knowing it ! 😂 thanks for the great video 👐
This is excellently described and all you need on top off this is a good melody brilliant piece of work thank you fellow youtube
This was inspiring, Thank you ✌🏻
That was helpful. Thank you.
Awesome video! the info about stings process confirms my own insights, and the example of still crazy After all these years was perfect!
I always have loved the beers/years part and you explained it so well.
this is, to me, all about using one's intuition, logic and sophisticated human angelic intelligence to make form come alive, as it bubbles up from within and without
"Seven Days was all she wrote, a kind of ultimatum note she gave to me, she gave to me."
Great video, very inspiring, thank You! I see an interesting relation to theatrical improvisation. I play a comedic musical act where this is what I do: The audience will give me three words and a music style, out of which I make a song, on the spot. Most of the time, that magic you talk about will happen. I cannot always tell where my ideas come from, but aiming for these three given words will logically lead me to the events in which I can use them. From my personal experience, I like the ‘linear’ way of writing, too: Start from a first line and just see where it will lead me. But of course, if we try to create definite, completed songs, your advice will help! It’s always good to push creativity by looking at things from different perspectives and changing angles.
Great video!!
This is brilliant!
Hey Benny, FYI - the Udemy link doesn't seem to be working. The patreon and sodadjerker links work though.
Thanks for letting me know Andrew... Put a new link there that should be working. cheers
Instead of using "song forms" one can use poetic forms. Dylan used the 14 line sonnet form for his song "Tangled Up In Blue" (which makes sense because in the song he speaks of "an Italian poet from the 13th century").
Great one. Thank you.
Stay intuitive and gather methods for your toolbox.
Great channel. Do you provide private tutoring?
Awesome insight!!!!
Also making the slogan of the song it's title makes it easier for people to remember it and find it on streaming etc
I recently read that a Rock icon said that the Beatles' "I saw her standing there" is the greatest song lyric ever written. I guess the the guy never heard the Police's "Every little thing she does is magic."
Sting is a songwriter genius!
Simply amazing!
Gordon Sumner is a very smart guy
One thing that makes Sting's top-down method so effective is that Sting has read a full library - he's immensely well read and extremely knowledgeable of classic literature from Ishtar to Hemingway... all expertly capturing or illustrating the timelessness of the human experience.
So hey - you kids stay in school and do your homework and one day you might write like Sting
:)
He’s highly intelligent and literate, so no surprise he’s oriented that way.
9:40 "there is no repeatable method" I guess he forgot what he said at 6:20.
Well, at 6:20 he's talking about the most common form of structure for modern songs. He's not necessarily talking about the process, or method, got how to arrive at a finished song of that particular form. But give him a break, he's a musician, not a logician.
@@FenlonAcoustic No, it doesn't matter what you call him, he contradicted himself. He clearly stated that he works backwards from the title EVERY SONG. Well, that's a repeatable method. You can't say "I write songs this way" then later say "there's no repeatable method for writing songs" I understand that he feels like every song is a mystery and puzzle to be figured out but he admitted to SOME kind of method and so you need to get your brain straight and if there are repeatable methods, then you can't say "there is no repeatable method". Songwriting IS a craft and as such, it can be taught and learned and repeatable. Whether people like them is another matter.
in Nashville, if you don't start with the title, someone might consider that "backwards"!
REALLY interesting !
My pheasant has diarrhoea. That's the title i came up with this morning. Im working backwards now.
Simple twist of fate also good example
I'm definitely no fan of Sting (as a person) but his proficiency at song writing is legendary.
Really? What about Burt Bacharach?
that was very interesting/thanks
"there's no good having a first good line". Come on now Virginia don't make me wait, the catholic girls always start much too late. I still remember the 35 sweet goodbyes when they put me on the wolverine up to Anandale. You know that it would be untrue, you know that I would be a liar if I were say to you girl we couldn't get much higher. There's a lot of great songs that start with a good first line.
Sitting in my car
Sitting in the drive waaay
Sitting here too long
Think ill go back in way
ill send an sos from my phone
Ill send an sos from my phone
Ill send an sos from my phone
If I sat in my driveway too long, my neighbors would come talk to me, I’d definitely lose my motivation to go. 😂
Hmmm. I've been a songwriter for 46 years. My songs have been published and sold around the world, and two of my songs are part of America's Smithsonian Institutes Collection. I'm not sure that I agree with anything you said. First, nearly any explanation anyone gives you for anything they do is not necessarly true. Our fantastically complex brain run countless processes concurrently when doing things far more simple than composing. If the lyric writing strategy works for anyone, great, use it. But in my estimation, writing the music of a song is a much harder thing to do and it is the music that people generally are most moved by. Sting's Message in a Bottle is a great example. In my opinion, the lyric is mediocre and I'd bet a lot that the song was a big hit in lots of countries where most people don't speak English. Why would that be? Well, you could point to Sting's bass line which is rhythmically fairly simple with a note progression of C#, A, B, F" (up in next octave). It's perfect. A more complex line would just take away. But, while perfectly matched to the song, that bass line didn't shoot the song up the charts. What did? That's easy: The singing and the guitar part. The guitar part is catchy as hell, and whether most listeners remember it or could identify the notes is irrelevant. Like Sting's singing on this and many other songs, that and this guitar, according to me, are about 80% of the song. ps I love Stewart Copeland's playing on this and many other Police songs, but I doubt that the drums have much to do with made so many Police songs find homes in our heads pps I think that Copeland's drumming may well have been part of what made Roxanne unique and very catchy
Do you have any content (video/blog/podcast/book) that articulates your songwriting process? I’m always looking to learn from experienced writers 👍
Great take and insight.
The guitar part might be what made it a hit, but the song was what it was before Andy showed up.
WHERE cam you share LINKS of your SMITHSONIAN SONGS PLEASE. I don't see content on your channel that supports this. Can you please share Mr. LESELL?
video: "here's how sting writes lyrics; back to front and free association"
yt comment: "as an expert in song writing, the reason this one specific song mentioned is great has nothing to do with the lyrics"
😂
No music in all the video?
If you want to marvel at how Sting write Every Breath You Take, then listen to Leo Sayer's song More Than I Can Say.
or Paul Simon’s, Slip Slidin‘ Away.
Not sure, in my opinion it doesn’t even compare to Sting’s songwriting abilities
@@fl3077 Have a listen to both. I was amazed. Every Breath is chord for chord More Than I Can Say. Sayer's song was released the year before. I much prefer Every Breath (Summer's guitar is brilliant), but I suspect Sting 'borrowed' Sayer's song.
Funny that Sting has a title first, I have been doing that for years. I will not even start a new song without a worthy title. I think if you give a creative process a pedestrian name, it can reflect if you let it and vice versa. By the way. You are Australian but I notice you have a slight American accent?
Shame this video is not about songwriting, but lyric writing. Probably the main reason for Sting's success at songwriting is his melodies & those I feel are the most fascinating & important aspects of his songs.
Sting was caught going through Neil Finns guitar case to find Neils lyric notebook. He was stealing.
Like already posted here: this video is not about songwriting, but lyric writing. English speaking guys often think that the lyrics are important for success. I don't think so. In 50/60/70 only few spoke english and could understand the lyrics of pop songs if it's not their mother language. But songs from Elvis, the Beatles, Stones, Queen, The Police, Pink Floyd and so on were huge hits WORLDWIDE. So it's about the melody, the sound, the voice and not about the songs. Guess how many people loved Zappa's Bobby Brown...and had no clue what he was singing about. And if they understood the lyrics.... ;-) :-)
As an english speaking guy i agree 100%. Melody is way more important.
the story of finding a hundred billion bottles, is copied by Sting from the song the ‘tie a yellow ribbon round the old oak tree, if you still want me..’ , and ending with ‘ .. a hundred yellow ribbons round the old oak tree’ .
There’s litterature from the Middle Ages where these stories already exist.
Tom Petty often had fabulous first lines to his songs.
If only Sting had retained his song writing magic after 1996 or so.
I don't know about 'no good having a great first line' What about 'Have you seen your mother baby standing in the shadow'...That's about the only hook in the song.I'm sure there's many others....But hey what do I know✌️
I have tried that on my own without knowing anything about how Sting writes and it has never worked for me. I let the song tell me what the title is.
'the more I learn; the less I know':)
Feeeyoouldzz ov goooould!😂😂😂
While I understand what he was saying about using song form, I disagree that you're supposed to use ABABCB form. I think every song you write, if you have a topic, an idea or story, it will have its own inherent structure. Much the way that an essay needs to be shaped in the accurate shape of your idea (a paragraph for every argument, inductive or deductive order, maybe headings for sections, asides, etc.), a song forced to fit the verse/chorus/bridge form might not work as well as it would in strophic form, or 32-bar AABA form, or rondó (ABACADA…) form, or through-composed (ABCD…), etc. Figure out the best order for what you want to say. Do you have an idea that deserves being repeated, or should you refuse to have a chorus at all, and focus on making the verses and main riff catchy? And so on.
If you’re Genesis, ABACAB, of course.
The human brain always works back from the vision . It's how it's wired
I'm not sure song structure is particularly advantageous, particularly these days where standing out from the crowd is becoming near impossible.
What's a refrain?
He claims to have a degree in reverse psychology,,,but he could never,,, BACK IT UP,,,
That’s all fine, but so many other great songwriters don’t like this method. Paul McCartney for example wants to come into songwriting with zero idea, and zero intellectual methodologies. He wants to let the music just tell him what the song is about, and enjoy the discovery from his subconscious or the universal river of song. I’m with Paul on this one.
Interesting, but musically useless - no discussion of the novel harmonic and rhythmic structures of the Police (how much did they co-compose in studio?), or why Sting's work after that was relatively conventional. This is a discussion of some sort of poetry, not of songwriting.
Has he done anything in the last 30 years.?.
"Message in a Bottle". Really?
Great guitar riff (thanks, Andy), but a bit repetitive perhaps (48 times?)
The lyrics so banal (and repetetive) it's an insult to the intelligence of anyone over the age of five.
Pseudo Jamacan accent somewhat toe curling?
(I'll get me coat)