Goof, Backsquat drives up your front squat but belt squat blew up my backsquat! Rep work especially! Could this be the Dark Triad of Squatting and Squatters?
Hi lads, a question semi related to this discussion, in regards to flexibility, or rather “mobility”, what Mobility exercises do you guys prescribe, particularly differences between static and dynamic stretching and when you use them pre/post lifts. And do your mobility exercises evolve as your ROM becomes better, or is it something that must be maintained regardless of increased mobility?
Okay fair cop, it's true that I was rude on the internet. Sorry lads. But I'm no squat university dogmatist, I'm perfectly happy to have a conversation about this. I accept your argument that a firmer back can produce a superior lever and that you coach that way for better performance in the squat and it works for your athletes. Also I'm not arguing for actively encouraging flexion in the squat or saying it's best for performance - no one's arguing that. My concern isn't performance at all, it's injury risk, and the fear of injury and possible hypervigilance as a result of narratives people hear and read. As you yourselves say there's no longitudinal data from real athletes that suggests a higher rate of disc herniations from more flexed spines or more spine motion in the squat. Instead there's long term data showing that lifters who regularly load their spines experience less trouble from herniations and general back pain than the general population, and the main predictors of injury risk are volume and loading, not technique. Moreover, there's research like the kind done by Greg Lehmann on the deadlift that shows that even when athletes and coaches think there's no motion in the spine there's actually heaps, so to the degree that we have observational data at all it seems like the prescribed squat form with a uniform back angle (which is how you put it in the first video) might not even be possible or detectable! This means the only way to make an argument that back movement in the squat is dangerous is by talking about mechanics: basically assuming that the body is like a machine and you can predict what will be injurious mathematically based on angles and forces and joint types, just as you do in this video. I just don't accept this sort of thinking - after all that's the kind of logic that people use to argue that all overhead pressing will create shoulder impingements, and the same logic that leads squat university to be so dogmatic about how to squat. First, just because we have a theoretical mechanism for a phenomenon doesn't mean it's happening: we'd need to see trends in real people and randomised trials. So Liver King for example provides theoretical mechanisms for high animal fat consumption reducing the risk of heart problems but since the opposite effect is shown by the data it doesn't matter how good his narrative sounds. The same goes for arguments about the mechanical properties of the spine, as far as I'm concerned. Second, human beings aren't machines - we can adapt to stressors that are placed on us, so long as the stress is productive and dosed appropriately. So I think using your well-earned platform to claim back motion or flexion is uniquely dangerous could be unnecessarily putting up barriers to exercise in the mind of TH-cam users, or at the least unnecessary hypervigilance about their lumbar spines while squatting. That can have numerous negative effects! I personally suffered from chronic back pain related to a very intense manual labour job for years and numerous health professionals loaded me up with kinesophobic narratives about a herniated disc and a ticking clock to sciatica and it was only after learning more, rejecting those ideas and not being afraid of loading and moving my spine that things improved for me so I think it's worth challenging this stuff in case there are other people having similar experiences reading and watching. If you'd just said you avoid it to focus on training knee extension rather than hip extension or maximise weight lifted I'd have said nothing, I only responded to you implying it was necessary for safety. Looking back at your original video now, I don't even really think you implied that very strongly there and I overreacted, but here you're much more explicitly making that claim, hence the essay. It's not often I keep track of my YT notifications but I'll keep an eye out just in case now!
@@hookoffthejab1 only three things I believe; 1. Better Mobility via specific exercises 2. Better mobility via tools (weightlifting shoes) 3. Squat shallower
Thanks for the video! I thought that wasn't that big of a deal, but it makes sense that the butt wink will be a relevant factor when squatting a lot of weight
I forget who the researcher was guesting in Iron Culture Podcast, I wonder if it was Andrew Vigotsky and Megan Bryanton-Jones, who talked about back flexion while squatting in the lab and how there was always gonna be some at the end of the range even if you couldn't perceive it with eye. They talked about the back rigidity, flexion and buttwink and shared some interesting pointers that don't come up too often, perhaps a bit opposing the now common ideas of buttwink. They didn't realöly contradict the idea of stable back in heavy lifts or touch the perspective of mobility issues that need fixing, but they were also somewhat relaxed in their opinions looking through the lens of their lab observations. It was a very interesting discussion.
Afaik it is less useful than asking the question: "How recovered do you feel." and not too relevant for strength goals. If you are performing badly and doesn't feel "fit" to train hard you are probably not well recovered.
Great video. On the related topic, can you make a video on how to determine your squat depth, depending on your anthropometry, so you can avoid butt wink.
Okay so I understand your points and let's say I want to fix my butt wink. Seems doable in a controlled movement as the squat but how would I tackle this in, for example, heavy cleans?
Can you please explain a bit more, but also in simple terms, why the back angle should stay fixed during a squat? Won't basically everyone hold the bar in the starting position with an upright back, and thus should these people all still have a vertical back at the bottom of the squat? Thanks!
Could you do a video on high bar vs front squat on an accumulation block for powerlifting? I figure that front squats are more useful in a volume/hypertrophy block because of reduced CNS fatigue from lesser spinal loading, but I think you guys prefer the high bar for the offseason? Would love to hear your thoughts!
@@alejandromagnobarrasa9244 fatiguing to the CNS or locally to the quads? I figure powerlifters can high bar a lot more weight than front squat, volume equated. If we're trying to push volume for the sake of hypertrophy as a powerlifter in an accumulation block, then logically we should look for the best ratio of muscle building stimulus to CNS fatigue. So if we can really torch the quads with lower weight and better CNS recoverability by switching out one of our squatting sessions with front squats, then it seems like the way to go
@@TheJackOfAllTrades777 I've started recently with a modified bar to keep my wrists in neutral position (I squat and bench on the same day). They leave me with a quad pump but less next-day yawning than a regular squat session (7x7 either way)
@@zucinnied Nope, it's a straight bar racked on the clavicles, just with added grip bars to save the wrists. So the gross mechanics are the same as a normal front squat
When I take a video of me doing behind the neck press... "That movement is unnatural, you are going to damage your shoulder". Mind you I have done this for over a year and no pain but the guy telling me this is having shoulder pain pressing from the chest 😂
Is there a difference in what your talking about between low back extension and anterior proving tilt? I’ve always been unable to do one without the other. Asking as a layman just trying to squat for the fun of it…
Hello BOIS, do you sell that Republic of Sikastan t shirt? If so, where can I buy it? I need to support our Republic....because I squat less than 200kgs and am willing to bribe my way in.
Buttwink can't be solely attributed to a lack of flexibility. Co-ordination/proprioception, strength, and flexibility are all potential culprits. Additionally, if buttwink doesn't happen at lower weights but does happen at higher weights or after several reps, the culprit could be load management.
Let's say you have a "real" athlete(Football player⚽) with APT(anterior pelvic tilt). When squatting ass to grass he's probably going to have butt wink in the bottom possition. So front squats and Zecher squats would be better for him because it doesn't force more extension and they(front sq and Zeches) have a bias towards felxion?
Behind the neck presses are okay but what about behind the neck pull ups or behind the neck lat pulldowns? Everyone always said never do behind the neck lat pulldowns since it's bad for the shoulders but never say anything about behind the neck pull ups
Granted, I don't do BTN lat pulldowns often, but I've never had any issues. I have good mobility, and honestly think it's a mobility issue. For what it's worth, I have a 75kg BTN strict press, and a 100kg regular OHP. Never had any shoulder issues whatsoever.
@@cheeks7050 Don't know any reputable practising physio that respects him or his content. Complete clown spreading kinesophobia to the masses. I enjoy the lads videos but disappointing they aren't aware of how shite squat U is
What do you think of upright row? Is it safe / is it useful in strength training? I watched E3 Rehab video ( th-cam.com/video/GWCNfJCjvvY/w-d-xo.html ) saying that upright rows are fine & shoulder impingement should be abandoned as a diagnosis. I dont know jack shit about anything so I thought I'd ask you to evaluate his views. Thank you for great videos.
I'm gonna preface this by saying I love your stuff but we don't have the research to support your claims regarding injuries. There is nothing that supports loading a spine under flexion will cause injury (yet as research is limited). We also know that lumbar flexion occurs in a squat regardless of whether you can see it or not. Squat University gets flak cause he refuses to accept anything but Stu McGills research on pig cadavers and refuses to discuss with anyone who doesn't give him a pat on the back and say good job. Lumbar position matters for performance that everyone can agree with. Read up on Greg Lehmans stuff if you want more reading.
Hey guys you probably don't know but there's a religion called Sikh. We have been trying to get a separate state for many decades, this to alot of us is an offensive name as we have had genocide committed against us and lost hundreds of thousands of community members during this battle for our separate state.
![[TH] 2024 PMSL SEA Finals D2 | Fall | ต้องรักษาฟอร์ม อย่ายอมให้ใครแซง](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/x38QsGn7A3M/mqdefault.jpg)
I come back to videos like these to improve my knowledge of biomechanics. Thank you for your time and efforts to put out great content.
Would really love to see a sika strength squat tutorial
2:17 'ball and jocket soint' lol
Ahahah.
That’s what I came here to say!!!
Goof, Backsquat drives up your front squat but belt squat blew up my backsquat! Rep work especially! Could this be the Dark Triad of Squatting and Squatters?
We've been saying it for years!!
Hi lads, a question semi related to this discussion, in regards to flexibility, or rather “mobility”, what Mobility exercises do you guys prescribe, particularly differences between static and dynamic stretching and when you use them pre/post lifts. And do your mobility exercises evolve as your ROM becomes better, or is it something that must be maintained regardless of increased mobility?
Okay fair cop, it's true that I was rude on the internet. Sorry lads. But I'm no squat university dogmatist, I'm perfectly happy to have a conversation about this. I accept your argument that a firmer back can produce a superior lever and that you coach that way for better performance in the squat and it works for your athletes. Also I'm not arguing for actively encouraging flexion in the squat or saying it's best for performance - no one's arguing that.
My concern isn't performance at all, it's injury risk, and the fear of injury and possible hypervigilance as a result of narratives people hear and read. As you yourselves say there's no longitudinal data from real athletes that suggests a higher rate of disc herniations from more flexed spines or more spine motion in the squat. Instead there's long term data showing that lifters who regularly load their spines experience less trouble from herniations and general back pain than the general population, and the main predictors of injury risk are volume and loading, not technique. Moreover, there's research like the kind done by Greg Lehmann on the deadlift that shows that even when athletes and coaches think there's no motion in the spine there's actually heaps, so to the degree that we have observational data at all it seems like the prescribed squat form with a uniform back angle (which is how you put it in the first video) might not even be possible or detectable!
This means the only way to make an argument that back movement in the squat is dangerous is by talking about mechanics: basically assuming that the body is like a machine and you can predict what will be injurious mathematically based on angles and forces and joint types, just as you do in this video. I just don't accept this sort of thinking - after all that's the kind of logic that people use to argue that all overhead pressing will create shoulder impingements, and the same logic that leads squat university to be so dogmatic about how to squat. First, just because we have a theoretical mechanism for a phenomenon doesn't mean it's happening: we'd need to see trends in real people and randomised trials. So Liver King for example provides theoretical mechanisms for high animal fat consumption reducing the risk of heart problems but since the opposite effect is shown by the data it doesn't matter how good his narrative sounds. The same goes for arguments about the mechanical properties of the spine, as far as I'm concerned. Second, human beings aren't machines - we can adapt to stressors that are placed on us, so long as the stress is productive and dosed appropriately.
So I think using your well-earned platform to claim back motion or flexion is uniquely dangerous could be unnecessarily putting up barriers to exercise in the mind of TH-cam users, or at the least unnecessary hypervigilance about their lumbar spines while squatting. That can have numerous negative effects! I personally suffered from chronic back pain related to a very intense manual labour job for years and numerous health professionals loaded me up with kinesophobic narratives about a herniated disc and a ticking clock to sciatica and it was only after learning more, rejecting those ideas and not being afraid of loading and moving my spine that things improved for me so I think it's worth challenging this stuff in case there are other people having similar experiences reading and watching. If you'd just said you avoid it to focus on training knee extension rather than hip extension or maximise weight lifted I'd have said nothing, I only responded to you implying it was necessary for safety. Looking back at your original video now, I don't even really think you implied that very strongly there and I overreacted, but here you're much more explicitly making that claim, hence the essay.
It's not often I keep track of my YT notifications but I'll keep an eye out just in case now!
Say it louder. Back mechanics may matter for performance but not injury risk - research just isn't there to support it.
So can i butwink or not? even if slightly
thanks for the intelligent discussion of this topic, i injured myself while flexing my upper spine doing shrugs and had impingement pain ever since
Fixing buttwink when I first started back squatting was one of the best uses of my time ever.
This was educational and entertaining. Thanks guys!
What helped get rid of it?
@@hookoffthejab1 only three things I believe;
1. Better Mobility via specific exercises
2. Better mobility via tools (weightlifting shoes)
3. Squat shallower
Man, you guys fed the trolls with rat poison. Good on you for turning the mean comments of the Internet into something useful!
This was super insightful, probably the video that helped me the most out of all squat videos I've watched.
Thanks for the video! I thought that wasn't that big of a deal, but it makes sense that the butt wink will be a relevant factor when squatting a lot of weight
I forget who the researcher was guesting in Iron Culture Podcast, I wonder if it was Andrew Vigotsky and Megan Bryanton-Jones, who talked about back flexion while squatting in the lab and how there was always gonna be some at the end of the range even if you couldn't perceive it with eye. They talked about the back rigidity, flexion and buttwink and shared some interesting pointers that don't come up too often, perhaps a bit opposing the now common ideas of buttwink. They didn't realöly contradict the idea of stable back in heavy lifts or touch the perspective of mobility issues that need fixing, but they were also somewhat relaxed in their opinions looking through the lens of their lab observations. It was a very interesting discussion.
Can you do a video on Heart rate variability (HRV) as a method of gauging *ffs (i wrote this early in the morning) how recovered one is?
Afaik it is less useful than asking the question: "How recovered do you feel." and not too relevant for strength goals.
If you are performing badly and doesn't feel "fit" to train hard you are probably not well recovered.
If you're gagging, you're probably not recovered
@@Failsafeman100 no Daniel stop!!! 🤣
We can definitely do a video on it
Very clear and concise, thanks fellas!
i think they are arguing because they lack the mobility to go to parallel without buttwink, and stretching is boring
Great video. On the related topic, can you make a video on how to determine your squat depth, depending on your anthropometry, so you can avoid butt wink.
neutral spine rejected, back flexion accepted
You have acted out Daniel Kenny's comment perfectly.
Love the T shirt. Are they available for the downtrodden masses ?
Soooooonnnnnnn
Okay so I understand your points and let's say I want to fix my butt wink. Seems doable in a controlled movement as the squat but how would I tackle this in, for example, heavy cleans?
+1 on the comment of how to determine squat depth lol, need help with that. good stuff as always guys
Can you please explain a bit more, but also in simple terms, why the back angle should stay fixed during a squat?
Won't basically everyone hold the bar in the starting position with an upright back, and thus should these people all still have a vertical back at the bottom of the squat?
Thanks!
Could you do a video on high bar vs front squat on an accumulation block for powerlifting? I figure that front squats are more useful in a volume/hypertrophy block because of reduced CNS fatigue from lesser spinal loading, but I think you guys prefer the high bar for the offseason? Would love to hear your thoughts!
Ooh man unless your doing significantly less load than front squats are way more fatiguing than back squats
@@alejandromagnobarrasa9244 fatiguing to the CNS or locally to the quads? I figure powerlifters can high bar a lot more weight than front squat, volume equated. If we're trying to push volume for the sake of hypertrophy as a powerlifter in an accumulation block, then logically we should look for the best ratio of muscle building stimulus to CNS fatigue. So if we can really torch the quads with lower weight and better CNS recoverability by switching out one of our squatting sessions with front squats, then it seems like the way to go
@@TheJackOfAllTrades777 I've started recently with a modified bar to keep my wrists in neutral position (I squat and bench on the same day). They leave me with a quad pump but less next-day yawning than a regular squat session (7x7 either way)
@@Failsafeman100 not using a safety squat bar right?
@@zucinnied Nope, it's a straight bar racked on the clavicles, just with added grip bars to save the wrists. So the gross mechanics are the same as a normal front squat
When I take a video of me doing behind the neck press... "That movement is unnatural, you are going to damage your shoulder". Mind you I have done this for over a year and no pain but the guy telling me this is having shoulder pain pressing from the chest 😂
THANK YOU SIKASTAN
for agreeing with me
😂
Yeah pressing behind the neck is fine, absolutely. Like okay people should be careful, but we should be careful doing any heavy lifting.
Is there a difference in what your talking about between low back extension and anterior proving tilt? I’ve always been unable to do one without the other.
Asking as a layman just trying to squat for the fun of it…
Would you say back flexion is dangerous/not good in a deadlift?
Hello BOIS, do you sell that Republic of Sikastan t shirt? If so, where can I buy it? I need to support our Republic....because I squat less than 200kgs and am willing to bribe my way in.
Suspicious narratives make for good rebuttal
Another great video, algo
Would you be against Jefferson curls or Zercher Deadlifts?
Ehhhhh more wouldn't really be for them as opposed to majorly against them
@@sikastrength Fair. Thank you for answering!
I like your tik toks John Jayne - now I know where you draw your inspiration 😂.
@@user-pp5lo5ky4i Haha, I’m glad you like my tiktoks! And of course, the Sika lads put out some great info. One of my fav channels on TH-cam
@@JohnJayne keep up the good content - it’s always refreshing seeing the s&c training for specific sports.
"more buttwink, less better"
Can the majority of people fix buttwink from simply improving hamstring flexibility through progressive stretching?
Buttwink can't be solely attributed to a lack of flexibility.
Co-ordination/proprioception, strength, and flexibility are all potential culprits. Additionally, if buttwink doesn't happen at lower weights but does happen at higher weights or after several reps, the culprit could be load management.
Butt wink usually isn't the hamstrings
What happened to the forearm Fitz?
Buttwink brings the comments to the yard
Let's say you have a "real" athlete(Football player⚽) with APT(anterior pelvic tilt). When squatting ass to grass he's probably going to have butt wink in the bottom possition. So front squats and Zecher squats would be better for him because it doesn't force more extension and they(front sq and Zeches) have a bias towards felxion?
The better option would likely be a less deep squat for the back squat in conjunction with front squats to a good technical depth
Behind the neck presses are okay but what about behind the neck pull ups or behind the neck lat pulldowns? Everyone always said never do behind the neck lat pulldowns since it's bad for the shoulders but never say anything about behind the neck pull ups
Granted, I don't do BTN lat pulldowns often, but I've never had any issues. I have good mobility, and honestly think it's a mobility issue. For what it's worth, I have a 75kg BTN strict press, and a 100kg regular OHP. Never had any shoulder issues whatsoever.
anyone who said btn pulldowns are back for the shoulder isn't worth listening to
a jall and bocket soint
Did Squat University help you out with your knees a year or two ago? I thought you guys were fans of squat university?
We do, I said people comment on his stuff saying those kinds of things
@@cheeks7050 yeah he only ever talks about how technique may cause pain. Nothing about social or psychological factors... Is no bueno.
@@cheeks7050 Don't know any reputable practising physio that respects him or his content. Complete clown spreading kinesophobia to the masses. I enjoy the lads videos but disappointing they aren't aware of how shite squat U is
Looks like you got some string slap on your forearm there Daire
How dare u bring nuance to this topic.. really well explained how butt wink isn't ideal, but isn't inherently dangerous.
Daniels a lame name anyways
True
I respectfully disagree, Daniel
Daniel's, please, not now, not here. We can't do this again.
@@sikastrength THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE
What do you think of upright row? Is it safe / is it useful in strength training? I watched E3 Rehab video ( th-cam.com/video/GWCNfJCjvvY/w-d-xo.html ) saying that upright rows are fine & shoulder impingement should be abandoned as a diagnosis. I dont know jack shit about anything so I thought I'd ask you to evaluate his views. Thank you for great videos.
Ffs Daniel
Boom boom
Snarky
He's awful but still has charm
I'm gonna preface this by saying I love your stuff but we don't have the research to support your claims regarding injuries. There is nothing that supports loading a spine under flexion will cause injury (yet as research is limited). We also know that lumbar flexion occurs in a squat regardless of whether you can see it or not. Squat University gets flak cause he refuses to accept anything but Stu McGills research on pig cadavers and refuses to discuss with anyone who doesn't give him a pat on the back and say good job. Lumbar position matters for performance that everyone can agree with. Read up on Greg Lehmans stuff if you want more reading.
Hey guys you probably don't know but there's a religion called Sikh. We have been trying to get a separate state for many decades, this to alot of us is an offensive name as we have had genocide committed against us and lost hundreds of thousands of community members during this battle for our separate state.
Bro you are creating outrage out of thin air
@@weightedsumwl no outrage, just stating what it means to us, I know it's not on purpose
@@kimsinghrai I still feel like you are still trying to shame them into not using sikastan anymore
@@weightedsumwl dude a simple Google search and this could have been figured out...no shame...but as Sikhs we shouldn't feel this way
@@kimsinghrai do you speak for all Sikhs?