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👋 Excellent analysis of Benetar's arguments. I personally haven't found any compelling arguments against Benetar's version of Antinatalism........ therefore I consider myself an Antinatalist.
Pain is necessary as pleasure so is life and death, their ideas from an antique era are obsoletes For now there is levels of consciousness, evolution beyond a flesh prison there is necessary indeed to live this life so is to evolve to a new dimension.
Virgins don't give birth to immortal rabbis. You're not just delusional, you're brainwashed by Semitic garbage. The only 'Messiah' we were ever gonna get was the Austrian Painter.
Until they did notice until the future you could make a 16 on that one, they don't like it I'll do it later? You can't have a child If your being assaulted by perception ...
That doesn’t really say much to if you are or aren’t having children Since you could end it by not having kids Or end it by having kids and in most cases those things just naturally wouldn’t happen and if they did you can help end it
you are weak. Instead of being strong and overcoming this challenge, you decide to surrender, and end your bloodline, even though your ancestors tried hard to continue their lineage. When you will die, there will be no piece of you in this world, you will perish. Children are continuation of us, a key to immortality, people in history suffered so much worse stuff, yet they persevered. I have no right to tell you what to do, you are free to do whatever you want, yet I wish for you to be better, curses can be healed after few generations if you live healthy life and don't inbreed
@@AmirSattDoes it really matter if he is strong or weak? Why do you desire to continue existing after death? You won’t be there to see what comes after, so why place the ultimate purpose of existence on something like permanence? Is existence not given value by its scarcity?
@@authaire Same here. Though I'm getting a lot of hate over the fact that I condemn my mother for being a Nazi as well as mentally ill. Which is absurd.
As someone who stubbed his toe the other day, I can confirm I resent my mother for bringing me into this world in which one such as myself can so easily stub his toe
Yes, the female has to allow the male to enter...but she can't get impregnated with out semen... we're all just walking talking toiling urinating eating defecating sperm... Nothing more
@@TheDemonx55 I mean? I somewhat agree with that. I see it now more likely. Than ever. At the same time? I think there’s a slight bit of hope for some of us. I mean? I’ve reproduced and my kids are phenomenal and mean well in this world. I see them doing big things. And hopefully doing more to help to turn this world around than to add to its dysfunction. So there’s that, at least..
Ironically, the people I know and have met (and seen on TV) who are AGGRESSIVELY preachy about “life is hard! That’s just life! Stop whining! You work hard, you get by, you make sacrifices, occasionally get something semi-worthwhile, you die! Deal with it! Don’t whine, just sacrifice your dreams, work your ass off, and retire!” Are the same people who aggressively say “you NEED to have children! It’s wrong to not have children! You’re not an adult until you have children, and it’s mandatory you become an adult!”
@@RighteousInquisition They didn't triumph dipshit. They struggled and suffered through it as life doesn't care who or what you are. We're bits of dust passing through, just ask people in Gaza if they've "triumphed" through Genocide. Because a lot of people have had whole scale families and communities wiped off the face of the earth as if they had never been born at all. Glorifying it doesn't make the physical or psychological problems go away, they stick with you for life. And that in of itself is a bi-product of being born.
I think the reason why antinatlism is so unnatractive is because it hinges on you having to accept that life is almost inherently bad. To accept the arguments conclusion is a pretty big leap for most and it does indeed feel like a doom and gloom situation
"to accept that life is almost inherently bad" , well why would one accept that if they find life to be inherently good? That's how I see life, my life for exemple is inherently good, I cherish it, I cherish everyday of it , I cherish the life of my loved one, if I could I would make it last much longer, so... why would you want me to admit anything else?
Tbh I became an antinatalist when I learned how common s.a. is with most people, yes women AND men. A lot of us are made victims at children and teens. Not even adults yet. Children and TEENS.
As an antinatalist one of the most annoying things to explain to people is the idea of not wanting to exist is not the same as wanting to die. I want to minimalize suffering and I know that if I die it'll bring suffering to my loved ones negating the whole point.
Sameee. I just didn’t want to exist. I won’t k!ll myself now… but if I had a choice of vanishing from existence and take with me the memory of my being, I would.
Honestly, you probably shouldn't tell people you are an antinatalist. In the moment, people will only respond emotionally and misinterpret your arguments no matter what, so maybe antinatalism isn't the best conversation starter :)) (unless you're in a specific setting, like a philosophy class)
I'm a nonconsensual product of an illicit affair between a mistress and a married man. The universe showing mercy to my lineage by making me infertile. The lineage ends with me.
@@arnowisp6244 assuming if you're child is a clone of yourself, based on your behavior they're eventually come down the road of self loathing. They're not blessed to be born in abundance, only cursed to live in a fruitless future anyway.
I'm 33 single with no kids and trust me I stayed single because this world is too evil to bring a child!!! I don't want them to suffer so I'd rather suffer alone!!
@@MentodayAtAccording to statistics, the most infertile are the middle class with an intelligence of over one hundred, like population of South Korea, China, Japan, most Europe an etc, on other hand: most fertility have africans 🫣 If you dont understand it mean "negative selection"
Though not ungrateful - yet I wish I was never born. The pain and suffering outweighs the pleasure or just being satisfied with the current state at times throughout my life. Yeah, I'm not continuing the cycle of bringing more beings into this existence. 🤗
@@b1a8nka guy is hit by a cycle and your first thought is "gotcha, you aren't a true atheist".... A phrase is a phrase and when one is so commonly in use a person may use it. Be better and thankful the accident didn't happen to you.
as an antinatalist. THANK YOU. this is the only video I've seen on the topic that talks about it honestly instead of intentionally misrepresenting it as some kind of death cult.
❤PLEASE READ --> If you believe in God you better stop your mind engine 🚂 and just trust god... Cuz he is the only one who knows about in which harm there is good hidden... Just think of the great philosophers that passed...whose judgement is greater... the creation or the creator?...God's judgement is infallible cuz look at the complexity and uniformity of this universe beyond our comprehension... He knows whether having childen is good or not...and if you look in the holy books there is no such anti natalist commandment... For all we know, we could look back at life while in heaven and rejoice the fact we lived and struggled on through life... According to me, the first responsibility of a person should be finding the true religion... Cuz god would have not have left us without guidance... Even I am struggling with this topic and just carrying on with the last straw of hope... Peace, from North India , Do share ur opinions❤ P.S. i learnt a lot from myself while writing this message
The only reason I'm not having kids is because I don't want to subject them to poverty. Me and my partner can barely afford a comfortable life. So no can do until we are sure we can afford and give the kid a life they deserve.
Growing up I ate stale food bank food and supported myself with a paper route from the time I was 6. I think I had some health problems from it and was slightly undernourished. I'm glad my parents had me though. Grateful to be alive and have a chance to experience things. I was probably happiest when I was young and poorly fed and working hard tbh. Dad couldn't work since I was born. Had a psychotic breakdown
But then does that mean only people that are suffering shouldn't have kids? And what about positive self evaluation? And shouldn't the right to choose one or one's child's life be in their hands?
@@saajiddaya2152 Everyone should have right to decide it themselves but when it comes to me I am not bringing anyone in this world where people are suffering like this
@@saajiddaya2152 kids are only to be brought to this world under sustainable environments. It is immoral to bring offspring to where you know they'll suffer.
I think it would be really interesting if you made a video combining Antinatalist and Ernest Becker's "Denial of Death". I really think these two philosophies go hand-in-hand. Becker makes a very good argument for why we evolutionarily desire offspring, desire a legacy, and why we wish to be remembered (hint: Our inherent fear of death)
Absolutely this! Thomas Ligotti's "The Conspiracy Against The Human Race" is a stark, entertaining and accessible digest of Becker, Zapffe etc. and Terror Management Theory in general for those that don't fancy something too long and technical. Ligotti writes horror, mostly, so it's a very colourful and evocative book, too.
@@farisakhtar4824 there's not many celebrities you mean. The world is filled with more beautiful people than HC. I like HC but I don't consider him the uber beautifulest man 🙄
No skill issues. We can endure all this. This doesn't mean it's not experienced. Every day, someone is going through something, and you can't invalidate what they're going through. As living beings, we seek to find comfort, safety, and avoid pain. Every day is a battle for those needs.
I find myself unable to escape the grip of pessimism, a force that has entwined itself with my belief in antinatalism. The weight of it all stems from one unavoidable realization: the sheer magnitude of suffering occurring at this very moment in the world. Somewhere, an animal is being torn apart, eaten alive, driven by nature's cruelty. A child, innocent and undeserving, is wasting away in agony from bone cancer. Thousands are caught in the throes of mental illness, some choosing death as their only escape, while millions others persevere - not out of hope, but out of obligation, fear, or resignation. The scale of this suffering, the unfathomable and relentless pain experienced by sentient beings, is almost too much to truly comprehend. To truly see this suffering, to FEEL it, to look into the abyss and witness the horror of existence in its rawest form-how can one declare this world worthy of continuation? How can we speak of life as a gift when the cost is borne by so many, in so many terrible ways? And that is only for this moment in time. The suffering we experience now is unbearable enough, but to imagine it continuing indefinitely into the future-generation after generation, life after life-feels utterly terrifying. Worse still, there seems to be no grand purpose, no reason to justify this constant stream of pain. If there is no reason, no inherent meaning behind the suffering, then why should life persist? It is this overwhelming reflection on suffering that keeps me tethered to antinatalism. The world, in all its brutality, seems to me an unjust and unbearable place to continue perpetuating. I cannot, in good conscience, argue for life in a world so full of suffering.
PLEASE READ --> If you believe in God you better shut your mind engine 🚂 and just trust god... Cuz he is the only one who knows about in which harm there is good hidden... Just think of the great philosophers that passed...whose judgement is greater... the creation or the creator?...God's judgement is infallible cuz look at the complexity and uniformity of this universe beyond our comprehension... He knows whether having childen is good or not...and if you look in the holy books there is no such anti natalist commandment... For all we know, we could look back at life while in heaven and rejoice the fact we lived and struggled on through life... According to me, the first responsibility of a person should be finding the true religion... Cuz god would have not have left us without guidance... Even I am struggling with this topic and just carrying on with the last straw of hope... Peace, from North India , Do share ur opinions❤ P.S. i learnt a lot from myself while writing this message
Consider looking at the sun, consider the sensation of air flowing over your skin, consider the smell of flowers. I think it is worth to be torn apart by other animals, so that I can experience this again. If I would have to live every life of every sentient creature, then I would still create the universe.
"Having children is a crime (for someone rational). You, who can choose, do not impose the burden of life on someone who is in the peace of nothingness" - Fernando Vallejo.
anyone in history who had the brain circuitry that swayed toward anti-natalism didn’t have children, therefore the genes for that brain circuitry are not passed on, and on the opposite spectrum the people who had a brain circuitry that prioritised procreation had more kids and those genes got spread more, as a result the vast majority of people will be under some level of illusion and bias when considering anti-natalism and yes i understand the brain doesn’t quite work like that, but those are two significant enough selective pressures that I think they have an impact i’ve found alot of people to be hostile and ridicule AN, and it makes sense you are fighting with the powers of evolution
Yes I think so too. I also believe that life became so safe and comfortable that anti natalists voices became louder than they would otherwise have been throughout history. Because faced wirh tyranny, famine, disease, war etc. those who don't cherish life would just have perished instead of being dragged along by progress and lamenting the agony of existence.
You can never fight evolution buddy , you are an aspect of it , malfunctioned cell in a body which is the society that you belong to , since you lack coping mechanism and melancholic tendencies you turned out this way
And the whole premise of "suffering=bad" is a product of evolution. So to land at antinatalism as a philosophy (not even in a pure efilist form of "fuck everything everyone should die" which i could respect, but in its redditor pseudointelectual false superiority form, where you accept all the presuppositions about life that are nice and comfy, EXCEPT reproduction which is inseparable from anything close to a "normal" life) is clearly laughable to anyone whose brain hasnt melted from other peoples ideas. This is where the hordes of prototypical empty egg carton cat ladies who try and convince you their life of binging netflix and getting lost in another random hobby every couple months is more fulfilling and virtuous than the alternate universe version of them that has children. Everyone can see only this kind of person could construct a worldview with all the pieces in place keeping a childlike view of life, except reproduction strategically plucked out. Ideally these people would be left to their fantasies and internet echochambers. Even depressed nihilist teenagers who adopt antinatalism as just another one of the life=bad philosophies are closer to the truth
To those who consider anti-natalists weak or immoral, - what do you think about monsters who abuse or even torture and murder their own kids. Are they better than anti-natalists?
Immoral? Probably not... but weak? Definitely! And I think people that weak should not procreate... oh wait they already don't 😂, problem solved without even becoming a problem, lol
Just because I personally think consciously bringing another soul into this world is an absolutely poor and unfathomable decision does not mean that I am of the opinion that those who think otherwise should be forcefully prevented from doing so. I wish the kids all the best luck, but I'm not interested in saving the world from itself anymore.
no one is saying force anyone to do anything. I think its good to have the conversation. If your parents thought about antinatlism more, you may not even be here...think about that.
@iaintgonlie7858 Do you think the people who entertain these trains of thought haven't considered these aspects? If my mother had known about antinatalism and opted not to have me, I simply would not be here, and that would be that. But she didn't, and I am, and that's all there is to that. I am not emotionally tied to or distraught by the idea that I might not have been born due to another version of my mother's choice.
So you're basically fine with breeders committing a crime (bringing children into this horrible miserable evil world). Sure, you can't force them not to breed but at least you should be against it in every way.
Humans are not animals who procreate only as an instinct. Humans can think and rationalise that bringing children into a life of suffering is not a good decision. Humans have reached the level of advancement to be able to prevent conception. So humans HAVE the CHOICE of not having children.
@@ingenuity296 love the human-centric bias there. As if literally no one critter on earth exhibits sexual selection or avoids mating when resources are short or will abandon some of their young to save the rest when resources are critically low. +150 years after Darwin and we still think we have a soul hahaha you got to laugh
The problem with your reasoning: you are trying to rationalize actions that have no moral origin, but because you can't rationalize them you assume they are inherently bad. We don't rationalize eating, breathing, desire, shitting, or any other basic human function because its silly to do so. We can decide when such things are appropriate to do, but whether doing them at all is okay isn't something that makes sense questioning. Try rationalizing existence, you can't. It's as good as you make it, and you can only determine if that was true once your life is ending.
Thank you for covering this topic. It is very taboo and a lot of people misunderstand it or react really agressively to it. In the end it's about compassion, and prevention of harm. Got my vasectomy at 26 years of age because of this philosophy!
I dont want to have children because I don’t want them to suffer. As I myself don’t want it so I don’t want to wish it upon anybody. See? You feel obliged to your child and responsible for them because after all you’re the one that brought them to this earth and if they suffer you sort of relatively must have some kind of responsibility. Although I said life is more suffering (the majority) than pleasure therefore it’s not worth living. Even tho some people may argue struggle is also beautiful and wanted I myself disagree personally. So I’d want to minimize suffering thus not wanting kids UNLESS I have an abundance of money status and opportunities even then it’s not garantuee, I’d not want a child. This doesn’t mean wanting to die or hate life I still see life as beautiful but that is concluded from many sufferings which I deem isn’t worthy of a price to pay for very few happiness in life
I assune Benarmtar had no kids... "Having kids creates suffering that has no cost for the parent"... If your kid suffers, you suffer, it has a cost... If your kid is suffering and you don't feel anything clarly there's an issue with your psyche...
@andresmicalizzi5420 Many are suffering in secret.., have you seen the suicide rates… many parents don’t even know the extent of suffering their children face until it’s too late
I’ve not had kids (yet, im 43) and it’s very unlikely I will. I’m not against other people having kids. But tbh, for myself, I don’t really want to be responsible for passing on my genes and all the health problems I have had. It feels cruel to subject another human being to likely similar issues and worries. Not to mention the social political world they would inherit. If I had them, It would be for purely selfish reasons (so I may be less lonely in old age), and not for any other higher or virtuous reason. So it’s very unlikely to happen.
Would you wish to have not been born despite your later in life health concerns? Would you say your life didn’t hold value because it having some uncomfortably and even suffering? I wouldn’t believe you do I’m sure you are glad you were born instead of just…never existing at all So because of that why would you make the choice to purposefully not let someone else exist? (Ignoring your current situation and how unlikely you believe it to be. For this hypothetical question let’s assuming you’re seeing someone and have the choice to or not to bring someone into the world)
43 here too, female, African...not easy here as a woman is given more value for being a mother. Been through hell and back...why bring a child here to go through worse maybe?
@@gabrielsalahi3656 What someone else are you talking about? Is there a line of people somewhere waiting to exist? Where are they? I would like to check up on them to see if they are weeping and sad because they aren't alive.... What kind of stupid logic is this?!?!?! Hahahahah.
yeah people care too much about passing on their genes. You will be dead and gone, why exactly is having kids that important to you. Not talking about you obviously...just the whole bloodline thing..who gives a fuck. Do we think about our ancestors...probably not.
I will continue to resent my parents for doing so. However, I'm not a quitter. I'm here and I'll do what I can with that. Although I go to bed every night hoping it's the last. What im not gonna do however, is bring a child into this sad pathetic world.
My siblings, friends, coworkers and in some cases people I don’t even know have said to me that I can’t possibly be happy being childless. But I am. I’m not antinatalist, at least not with regard to other people. I find it both curious and frustrating that others insist on imposing their belief in natalism on me….??
As someone who's life revolves around children, I feel this video is relevant. People are too selfish and materialistic, self obsessed with their own feelings to understand the beauty of children. I have my degree in early childhood development, am mom of 3 and run an in-home preschool, former center teacher. Children are life, they are the light. I intend to keep their lives magical and the light in their hearts and eyes alive. I love being a mom and feel so incredibly blessed to be close to so many children. That being said, not everyone should have kids. They are not an accessory to a presentable life, nor an extension of the ego. I hope more people consider the real responsibility of bringing a child into this world. Loving children always requires a transmutation of one's own pain into Agape. This takes quite a bit of energy!
The same can be said about having children. People choose to have children because THEY wanted to. They thought it was a good move for THEM. Becoming parents is fulfilling for THEM. Children were ti fulfill THEIR desires. Having children made THEM feel good. Isn't that selfish, or self obsessed?
If your child grew up and asked you, Mom, why did you have me? I'm tired of life and all its struggles. Unlike you, I don't want to deal with misery and pain. You won't always be around, and when I'm old, I might suffer from disease, loneliness, or even both. Why bring me into this world? How would you respond?
@smtkumar007 I'm not sure how I would respond without having a real situation like this. Love and compassion would guide me and help me to listen. What would you tell your parents if they asked you this? How do you feel?
Thank you so much for doing what you do. I’ve been watching your channel religiously for the past several months, the few days between uploads are an anxious wait indeed.
I am always astonished, when I bring up this topic, how quickly discussion derails into accusing someone of being "insane" or "stupid", without adressing the actuall points. Nice summary, you did not wind up in this trap.
@nirodha01 what a pointless thing to think about. I'd rather exist and suffer than never exist. There is meaning and purpose in life, and suffering often reveals that.
@@mishynaofficialno doubt about that it is to some point true. Who likes war but in 21st century we are having 2 wars right next to eachother. So to some degree people are masochist
I do enjoy suffering, not the suffering itself, but overcoming and persevering it. I love challenges and competition, I am the kind of guy who goes shirtless at -30 degrees in winter, stuff like this is so much fun. Why can't you be the same? Be as great as you can be?
26 now and the idea of having a child scares the shit out of me. Like, you bring a mind/a soul/whatever you believe in into the world and then you can never protect or ease the pain of this creature. Doesn’t matter how much of a good parent you are, you’ll never be able to understand and help you child enough. I don’t want to multiply the suffering we already have l. One day I might change my mind but it’s highly unlikely
Thanks for paying some attention to this important topic. I’m an antinatalist myself. A couple quotes I resonate with: “It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place.” - David Benatar “I do not hate life or desire death, I only regret being born.” - Emil Cioran
Not to hate or anything, but I never understood that line of thinking. As an author, I've noticed every story has conflict, but I've also noticed overcoming that pain with another, is extremely beautiful. And I've noticed stories without pain, are not stories at all, and the love characters have in them can't be proven or shown, because pain is necessary to know and show you love or enjoy someone. I also realized that I rather enjoy life. It sucks some times, I have to fight my own mind, but never do I wish I wasn't born. I enjoy certain fights, I don't enjoy others. I get thinking it's better if things aren't born or made, but ultimately that choice falls to the individual. If you believe it's better to not have children, then don't. As for me, I want to have kids, but first have to find a woman who's willing to go on a date and fall in love with me. That's also a fun fight I enjoy
Parents want to prevent their children from needless suffering, true. No one prior to anti-natalists has ever claimed that everything that can conceptualized as "suffering" should be completely eliminated. Queue example of how muscles grow through tearing or notions of good being worth more than evil in the final calculation, etc.
Tbh i can't see myself having children in a world like this. They will likely have to fight for everything. they own nothing and enjoy nothing. The way the cost of living crisis is going won't be feasible anyway. Plus, i have multiple mental and intellectual disabilities that could be passed down my line. Im a little sad about it,but at the same time day by day im more and more releived i dont have them. Its just added stress and pressure that i dont need.
I stumbled upon your channel the other day, and your videos have been the perfect addition to my late night philosophical, existential train of thought. I'm not in the state of mind to respond to your points in this video, but I listened and journaled a lot alongside hearing your words. Thanks for making these videos. You make abstract thinking digestible and fun. Thanks for that :) hope you're having a great Tuesday. And I hope you are at peace with being born ;)
I'll never understand how people can be in a messed up situation and think to have kids. I hate existing and I'll be damned if I force another being to exist
@@saajiddaya2152 maybe so. I see the good in being human but the trial and tribulations you have to go through to even exist let alone actually live aren't worth it. Especially once you realize that even the things you create will eventually fade away. I suppose human existence is moment to moment along with trails of thoughts and ideas
@@JazBumbkins I guess that's where we differ then. I embrace the hardships of life and you don't (I'm fully aware of the irony of both of us sitting in the West complaining about life when there are people ACTUALLY suffering)
@@saajiddaya2152 That is a funny valid point. Here we are bitching about existing while there's people surviving off of dirt sewer water. Which just proves both of our points further. We're quite literally both ends of spectrum 😂
A major flaw in this philosophy is that it seems to simplify life too much. Life is more than just how often you suffer and whether you accomplish your goals. There are many more emotional states to life to consider. In fact, more pleasure in the long term is achieved by working towards, but not reaching your goals and some pain can lead to pleasure or directly cause pleasure at the same time as the pain.
There is no logical flaw in the antinatalism argument due to the reality of death. Every person in the past present and future has and will watch everyone they care about die and then experience their own death. Regardless of any other benefits one may experience, those two most horrible outcomes are promised to everyone who exists. Any rational and reasonably caring human would agree that death of their loved ones and ultimately themselves is the most horrible of outcomes. Therefore the continuation of intelligent life simply continues that pain. Our rationality makes us unique in the animal kingdom. We actually have the opportunity to rationalize above our instinct (procreation) and beat this losing game of life. Why would we not take it? Antinatalism really is the ultimate protection of consent, the ultimate in self actualization and humanity getting to finally control the terms of this game we are stuck in.
@@Nox-mb7iuHis position doesn't really assume any goal in life. The example he gave of a child that's predicted to have an amazing life he still argues is not reason enough to force someone to exist
Nobody seems to question the entire premise of using pain or pleasure as a metric. Why use these metrics at all? Why should this be a basis for existence? How about meaning? Is your life meaningful? Why should my life be pleasureable? Am I some kind of dopamine machine, or am I a conscious being? There are so many painful experiences that create meaning and value. Working out is painful - I hate doing it - and yet nobody would call that *bad*. The whole premise the arguments are based on is fundamentally flawed. This is why Benatar's arguments never got anywhere with me - he never examines the oremise of his own arguments, that *pleasure* or *pain* are even useful metrics to begin with.
this video makes me feel like I've found home. I didnt know what I was feeling was called anti-natalism. I've been depressed since I was 13 years old, so over 15 years now and it had been clear to me then as it is now, that this was the only true philosophy to live by. Life is not worth it.
Exactly the problem. Only depressed, nihilistic and unstable people could reasonably hold this kind of thought. I wish you the best, though. I'm not trying to attack you, but just pointing out the main demographic subscribed to this philosophy.
@@dominusantonius in a universe where human lives have no meaning, its downright cruel to bring a child into this world. I cannot see a future where I can truly live my truth and also have a good life. Every newspaper I read just cements these beliefs even more. It hurts me so much just to think that every fucking buck that I've ever made or ever will make by working is almost completely corporate blood money, made off of exploiting other unfortunate people. But I have to keep on doing it because I need food and shelter and have a dependant mother. That is not the life a child should be born into. So either I betray my beliefs, succumb to capitalism and get rich like every other person, or stick to my beliefs and live like rodents, surviving off of literal shit.
@@dominusantoniusMany people can hold this kind of thought. The children forced to be caregivers to their parents dying of aids in Africa, child soldiers, anyone in North Korea, trauma survivors, women in the Middle East, human trafficking victims, the list goes on and on. The majority of the world suffers greatly and would have every right to feel like scraping by in pure survival mode day after day isn’t worth it. You sound completely ridiculous and tremendously oversimplify this issue with your label of “only depressed, nihilistic, and unstable” people could think this way. My goodness how out of touch! Maybe if the majority of the world is miserable and depressed, that’s a signal things aren’t going well and we shouldn’t keep going the same direction.
@@MADSCIENTISTGONESANE6166 What if all of it is unnecessary?🤔🤔🤔😉😉😉😥😥😥It just is. All that was, is and will be was determined before any of us were born.
Maybe you should also discuss the consequences of overpopulation. Famine, putting junk in food for filler(which we are already doing), devaluing individuals (which we have been doing a long time but is getting much worse), and waiting for a famine/ decease ect to level humanity naturally, rather than controlling ourselves like an actual intelligent species.
If someone noticed, posters and shows up until 1960's have a positive image of the future, while 1970's and especially 1980's developed the concept of dystopia in the cinema. However, in the literature, the concept of dystopia was presented by Aldous Huxley and George Orwell since 1930's
Anti-natalism seems to only work if you’re also Nihilistic but that seems to almost contradict itself since Antinatalist’s would likely argue they are trying to prevent suffering. Meaning they are giving some kind of value to the idea of suffering (even if that value is negative) Which goes against Nihilism The only work around is if you don’t actually believe in Nihilism in which case why does happiness or satisfaction or experience not have value yet suffering does???
Well... I am an antinatalist and I am a Christian. 😅 and in the case of nihilism I could also say: "existence has no value, why continue bringing more beings into existence?"
@@supertilin I’m not even going to get into the contradictory ideas of being both antinatalist and a Christian And to comment about your nihilist take “existence has no value, why continue typing at your computer?” The answer is simple, you simply want to. Your wants and needs may not have value but just because you believe they are unimportant you still act upon them. In which case the same goes for having children To believe not having children is morally right would be 1. Admitting you’re not actually nihilistic being you believe in morals 2. Saying having children is morally wrong which…again goes against Nihilism 3. If you really do believe in nihilism then having children or not is completely personal choice and the fact you personally don’t want kids doesn’t mean you’re actually an antinatalist Also….if you’re Christian you also again can’t believe in Nihilism because it’s contradictory
@@supertilin How can a Christian be anti-natalist? The Christian God's first command in Genesis is to be fruitful and multiply - it's literally the universal given to every form of life.
@@supertilin Also your framing of existence is still giving a negative value, even if you claim it doesn't as you're arguing against something due to implicitly holding it to be bad. The nihilist sees existence as absurd, there's no reason to argue for anybody to do anything. Just let them do what they will
@@TheSuperXNova God does not condemn you for not having children. And why doesn't he condemn you? It's complex to answer, but it must have some implication that if it doesn't exist, it doesn't need to exist.
I think this is where I hit a wall when it came to philosophy. Even after some really convincing points, I couldn't quite find myself fully agreeing with Benatarr, but I couldn't quite figure out why. I still kinda can't, but after some thinking, this is the best I could come up with- I disagree with Benatarr's base points. He says that our life is way worse than we think, and while he has a point there, I don't think life is just either sadness or lack of sadness. He said that Happiness and positivity is just a lack of negativity, for example Happiness is just a lack of Sadness, but this idea can be flipped on its head and still be true. Sadness is a lack of Happiness. In a basic sense, people are sad because they're not happy, and happy because they're not sad. For Benatarr, Negativity is a negative number, and Happiness is Zero. I think that Happiness is instead a positive number, Sadness being negative number, with 0 being a state of feeling neither. Life is a constant shift from these 2 and many other emotional states, and the positive *can* balance out the negative. You cannot just emphasize the negative so much while ignoring the positive, as thats only 1 side of the coin. If sadness can be its own thing just by being "Not happiness", then so can Happiness. Now, with that in mind, I think his asymmetric example is too extreme to draw conclusion for general cases of conception and birth of children. Sure, I agree on what he thinks on the extreme cases he presents, but I think morality is something that should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, there is not one-size-fits-all solution. As I said in the previous paragraph, Happiness can balance out Sadness. So in a general case of two responsible, somewhat prepared people bearing a child while living a life not fancy, but good enough to provide the basics of childcare. We can reasonably say that the child will live a life with both ups and downs, unlike the lives of all luxury, or complete misery, that his examples give. So here, we can say that the child may live a good, decent, or bad life, and the morality of the decision of conceiving them will depend on how much of good and bad they had in life. The best the parents can do is providing good conditions, and equipping their kid with everything they'll need to live a life of happiness as an adult, and depending on how well that was done, it will decide whether it was a good decision, or bad one, or just neutral. TLDR- If negativity can be its own entity according to Benatarr, then we cannot just dismiss positivity as "lack of negativity", because flipping that logic will make positivity its own entity, and still make sense. With that, we can, instead of dismissing every good instance in life as "its a lack of bad stuff", we can instead use it as a way to balance out all the bad in life, meaning we can say that, depending on how well the parents equipped their child with whats needed to do so determines the morality of bringing that child into this world. If I have just misunderstood Antinatalism, a correction is welcome, I just think Benatarr was wrong in dismissing the good parts of life so easily
Reproduction is not always a bad thing, and neither is it always a good thing. The issue with people is that people in the vast majority of civilizations have been encouraged to have a house full of children for no reason other than religion and society. It was more excusable when children had a lower chance of making it to adulthood, which is why animals like turtles and seahorses have so many offspring at a time. Even then, I would say that back then, people shouldn't have needed to have so many children. Humans have more intelligence than animals do, so we have an advantage and the ability to make our lives easier. People will actively go against ideas that may change things for the better because of the desire for 'comfort' or delusion. In my opinion, the majority of women give birth to only one child at a time for a reason, and it is because we are not less intelligent, dumb creatures that operate off of instinct, and have the ability to, like I said before, make our lives way easier. Extinction is definitely something to fear, but when you think about it, the encouraging people to have plenty of children will bring about extinction slowly. A higher population density, especially if that population is clumped in one area of the world due to territorial reasons, will put strain on the natural reasources, and there will likely be increased crime and polution because there are more people to manage and look out for. Imagine if everyone were having 5 to 10 children, and those children had 5 to 10 children? Eventually, resources would run out, and makes more room for things getting out of control. Now, in ths scenario, things could probably work if these people were fine with having to eat food grown in a lab or if the people are literally pushed to remain as green and clean as possible. Because we live in a world where most people couldn't care less about the environment, couldn't care about others, and many governments are selfish and chaotic, the encouragement of people to have a bunch of children is counterproductive. Overall, it doesn't have to be like this, but as I said before, we as humans have way more intelligence than animals, and it is up to us as a collective on how we live.
i remember seeing this story on AE network and this midget lady had got pregnant and the doctor i guess used whatever tech to let her know the baby will also suffer from the midget gene. She broke down and was sad because all her negative memories growing up. The doctor comforted her and I was thinking, she don't deserve comforting. She absolutely knew she had a 50/50 shot of subjecting her offspring to this..don't act dumb. But people really don't care, if a kid makes them happy, they will try to justify it by any means. The midget daughter will go through life hating her genes too.
Interesting. When I was a young boy I realized that I did not want to have kids because I had more respect for a kid I didn't have yet than to bring them into a world that was SO screwed up and make them have to go through all the crap having to live on this planet. I was NOT going to do that and I never did.
People have no problem talking to new borns, even though they can't understand or reply, but what I've never heard them say is "congratulations for being born, you're going to have a beautiful life and you are so lucky to be here, this is a wonderful place." Kinda wild when you think about it. They usually just refer to how the presence of the baby makes them feel emotionally i.e "you're so cute!"
@@Matt-on4ofunless you're a millionaire, u kinda left out the important parts😂 "oh I hope u enjoy your shortlived welcome cuz u probably gotta fend for yourself after approximately 2 decades, and undergo a mentally and physically exhausting toil to the grave from that point on".😂😂😂
This really seems like projection. I think most parents have kids with love in their hearts and hopes that they'll find their time on Earth to be fulfilling.
@destroyerofnuggets3644 but they can offer no guarantees so a more accurate statement would be most parents gamble with other people's lives, knowing full well that their hope and good intentions bear no effect on whether their children will die from cancer, or if they'll be molested by a coach etc. If either of those things happen then the parents are responsible, as people are aware that this environment contains seriously horrific things in it, but then force kids to be here anyway, whilst knowing they can be guaranteed nothing. Parents with sick children bear 100% of the responsibility for that occuring. It's part of the risk they knowingly took and unfortunately it didn't work out. We ignore a lot of normal societal ethical standards and responsibilities when it comes to parents.
@Hatunrumioc if a child dies of cancer it's the fault of nature and if a child gets s.a. it's the fault of the perpetrator. It's worthless and morally dubious to assign guilt to parties that aren't actually responsible for the externality. Regardless, it is a bet, so you make it the same as you make any other: by evaluating the odds to the best of your ability. Obsessing over a potentially negative outcome is just as pathological as assuming there's no risk at all.
It seems to me the asymmetry experience is the result of a modern individualist philosophy which says that you can do whatever you want as long as you don't harm someone. It's not hard at all to imagine a collectivist culture where people would say it's bad not to have a child who'd live a blessed life. The asymmetry stems from our view of avoiding badness is mandatory while pursuing good as optional.
Even in this case, there are arguments regarding the character of positive experiences in comparison to negative ones that hint at the possibility that pleasure is merely a less empty boredom with boredom being the mere lack of pain or accute distractions. If you are refering to a blessed life as in a life full of good deeds, this is sadly not something one can predict very well, regardless of the definition of such virtues that one chooses.
Everything about bringing another human into existence is like a roulette. You have no clue whether your child will be happy or miserable, and you're gambling with life itself. Let's say he is healthy, well educated, happy and has a good life, well, great, then you rolled the best dices, but if he's miserable, sick, depressed, alone, then that's how it is, you can't roll it back and the child is now stuck here in that state. It seems to me that the best way to avoid this is to just not take the gamble. And you might say something like "you influence your child's life and you can try your best to make him happy", but I don't know if a nuke will hit my home tomorrow. I don't know if he will be hit by a car, or if I will, or if I will get cancer or if he will. We're more or less powerless in the face of fate, so it's not a good gamble at all.
@@spicy7302 If a nuke hits your home and evaporates everyone you've kinda just accomplished the same thing as never having them at all, tbh. If something's a roll of the dice, the natural follow-up question is, "what are the odds?" If you only fail your roll on 1's then it's a pretty good bet. I agree that people should consider whether or not they can guarantee their kid a good life when they choose whether to have children or how many children they should have, but the world is largely a good place and the odds of them living a fulfilled life are pretty high so long as you don't have a debilitating, heritable condition and can reasonably provide food and shelter.
@@destroyerofnuggets3644 All you're telling me (no offence) is the same idea. It's a gamble, you don't *actually* know if it will have a good life, and you're already adding conditions like "unless you have a debilitating illness or are in poverty". You don't know whether your child will get cancer in their lifetime, or whether they will suffer mental illness, and in today's modern world, shelter and food isn't sufficient to live an actual fulfilling life. Plus, I think you know most people that have 10s of children are actually those that don't meet the conditions you put up.
@spicy7302 I wouldn't recommend people have dozens of kids either. Usually when your philosophy drives you to pathological conclusions there's something amiss. As with most bets, you use what information you have to evaluate the odds. If I have a stable job, a loving wife, and have a natural inclination to take care of kids, then it's more likely than not that any child I do have will have a good life. Rare events like cancer have a weight proportionate to their infrequency because I wouldn't deny 1,000 joyous lives to prevent a single life of suffering. You can debate the odds, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with making the bet.
As an antinatalist I can confirm that wanting to live your life makes you the spawn of satan and you should join me in my cozy little pit of despair /j
@@MostafaElSakari Hey, that's great. Good for you. I wish even 20% of our species would have the same experience. Hell, I REALLY wish that all of us would.
@@davagevorriose8046I can imagine, and I would not have been denied anything if I never existed in the first place. I think the concept of non existence itself is a bad thing for people who love life and hence all these arguments
The inability of the comments to differentiate between preventing consciousness from being created and ending an existing consciousness is *chefs kiss*
@@travisbplank Well, it's not as easy a question as it might seem. It's easy to distinguish the difference linguistically, but to understand the fundamental difference is another story. Unless you first establish a solid philosophical framework to answer what it means to exist, I don't think you can even start discussing the fundamental difference between ending something that exists and not allowing something to exist.
@@merxj Yes. Most people have not established a philosophical framework for what it means to exist. The issue arises when they feel compelled to weigh in on a subject for which they have no understanding.
Never did I complain or suffer in nonexistence, never were the tales of despair and unmitigated evils laid before before my eyes when I in nonbeing. Never did I feel imprisoned and conditioned on a succession of impositions, some even "pleasant" ones which kept me prisoner me in this fate. Then one enlightened figure plucked me from my quietude to throw me to the dogs and see how I fared
@@zinasherif7791 the way I see it, life starts the contracted debt and you live each day paying it off, but since the fares are so high there isn’t anything to cover the costs
@@hismajesty6272 nonexistence is not literally a state of being (which one experiences), so to refer to a potential suffering nonexistent subject is a fools errand which misses the mark by an absurd degree.
Yes, you exist. Quit whining about it and start making it better. If you really don't want to, you won't exist forever. God will make sure of it. No one is going to put your consciousness in a computer forever.
I pondered this specifically within the context of Christianity or Islam: if someone genuinely believes that most people will go to hell for all eternity, than isn't the ethical choice to not intentionally have children, risking that your children will end up on hell?
But only the people who would deserve eternal hell would care, and they wouldn't believe in it anyways. And same vice versa. The people deserving of eternal heaven are the same who believe in it. And they would raise their children accordingly.
Or, alternatively, why preach the gospel? If people can’t go to hell if they’ve never heard of god, but if they *have* heard of god but can’t believe in him they do risk going to hell, isn’t the best thing to do to actively try to forget Christianity/Islam? That way we can all just be judged on our merits when we die rather than having our ability to form a belief in something playing any part in our fate.
As Christians we are called to have children and teach them up in the way they should go we are called to multiply and spread about the earth. If you are a Christian it’s best not to have a family so you can spread the gospel without being hindered but if you cannot withstand from lust which most people cannot Christian and pagan, you are to get married. It’s lust the cause children to be in this world and it will not cease, thats why children will happen regardless. Abortion is a great evil sin it is child sacrifice that the Jews in the Bible have fell for time and time again and where punishment for it by God for worshipping Baal (religion that sacrifices children) Hope this helps you understand
@@ecta9604 the possibility of postmortem salvation and the eschatological view of postmillennialism answer your question. Granted, it is just one possible view, but the well read Christian does have answers to these problems.
As someone who should've been aborted, but as my birthgiver was quite adament to have me, if you are on the fence about having a kid, just don't, if you aren't sure that you can give your kid a great life, then don't have the kid, it is the kinder thing to do
I honestly don't see how this is complicated. The desire to have children is deeply ingrained in us. Yet, at the same time, we fear great suffering and death-especially the kind that comes unexpectedly and in brutal, painful ways. Tragic events like murder, being trapped in a disaster, or suffering a slow, agonising death are nightmares we hope to avoid, but they remain a reality of life. When we choose to have children, we are not just granting life; we are guaranteeing their death, and exposing them to the potential for immense suffering. If someone contemplates having a child, and I point out the possibility of that child developing cancer at age four, being sexually assaulted at thirteen, getting hit by a car and dying slowly at twenty-three, or struggling with severe PTSD and suicidal tendencies, they cannot later feign ignorance or innocence if one of these things happens. They knew the risks. While they may not be driving the car that causes the accident or triggering the disease, they brought a new life into a world where these dangers are well-known and ever-present. And what are the reasons people typically have children? Often, it boils down to one thing-they simply feel like it. It’s a choice driven by personal desire, rather than any guaranteed benefit for the child or the greater good. Take the tragic example of Francis Ngannou, the former UFC fighter who recently lost his young son. His grief and brokenness were palpable as he questioned why such a thing had to happen. But why the shock? Was he unaware of the risks life poses on this planet? Of course he knew. We all do. But we still choose to roll the dice and act surprised when tragedy strikes. The truth is this: the only way to truly protect a child from suffering, pain, and death is to never bring them into existence in the first place. To me it seems noble to sacrifice your desire for family in order to protect that very family.
Yes. This is why, as a very young heroin addict, I had an abortion at about 2 weeks and don't feel any remorse or regret. That was over 20 years ago and i feel like the world was done a positive service.
@@AntiGamer-de8vp If you want to be that literal then maybe a better word is prevent. The only way to truly prevent harm towards someone is to not make them in the first place. It's quite simple tbh, if you make a human you guarantee harm and death, with the possibility of serious harm as well. If you don't make a human these are all eliminated. To have a child is selfish, because it isn't as if children are being tortured in a spirit realm before they're born, and in order to save them humans need to reproduce to bring them to Earth. Before a child is born they do not exist, therefore they cannot be harmed or deprived of anything. This is true peace, but parents bring them here anyway. Yes, the idea of our species dying out is horrible and bleak. But this is again because we are hardwired to want to keep this all going. We're kind of addicted to this life game. If there were no cost then it would be fine, but we see the cost every day when we turn on the news.
@@sonsofbiscuits1 Prevent is way better! Cheers! I hope you'll forgive the former pedantry. I just think Benatar's asymmetry language tends to lead to such unwieldy statements like this from his book: >> We can regret, for the sake of an indeterminate but existent person that a benefit was not bestowed on him or her, but we can't regret, for the sake of somebody who never exists and thus cannot thereby be deprived, that this never existent person never experiences. -- Better Never to Have Been, p. 47 Ugh! I also came across an antinatalist video where the creator said he's the most responsible parent possible, because he refuses to ever have children. To me that's like someone saying they're the most responsible worker, because they refuse to ever get a job. That's just downright obnoxious. I don't mind the basic intent though. For example, if someone just tweaked that and said they're far more ethical because their choices prevent children from ever suffering, I'd be totally cool with that.
@@sonsofbiscuits1 My pet peeve is mostly with Benatar rather than antinatalism. I really don't think he's good for the movement. I might just be a simpleton but much of his logic is either convoluted or genuinely absurd and incomprehensible. At least I'm sure some small part of it is absurd. For example, if I take his far less abstract book, The Second Sexism, he has passages like this: >> Our current practices are so entrenched that people rarely see how odd they are. Men are expected to urinate in the presence of other men, but women are not similarly expected to urinate in the presence of other women. -- The Second Sexism I don't have to be a logician to know for sure that this is quite absurd to view the differences in men and women's bathrooms as a form of sexism. I at least sympathize with the general sentiment of antinatalism and its way of evaluating ethics. For example, when you made the tweak from protecting the nonexistent to preventing harm to people, that's so much more comprehensible.
"Man is a compound of needs which are hard to satisfy; that their satisfaction achieves nothing but a painless condition in which he is only given over to boredom... (which) is nothing other than the sensation of the emptiness of existence... We take no pleasure in existence except when striving after something, in which case distance and difficulties make our goal look as if it would satisfy us - an illusion which fades when we reach it... Whenever we are not involved in one or other of these things but directed back to existence itself we are overtaken by its worthlessness and vanity." - Arthur Schopenhauer
Speak for yourself Schopes. Existence is fascinating and not merely a game of "gimme that." Yes, for small minded, boring people life is only as good as the mall that they live near, but that's hardly representative of the human race. What happened to the Will to understand? Nihilism is stupid.
very true...when I finally got my dream car, i was excited for years saving up and working like a dog but after having the dream car for about a month, my mind went back to depression... or when a Hot Woman gives me a chance and i'm over the moon but after a few dates, she turns to just another ugly woman in my mind and back to depression.
I have a large family,it has been bittersweet,I love my children,grandchildren and great grandchildren,but the world is a worse place than it used to be so I urge young people to not have children. I look forward to the day I can leave this unpleasant world,its unpleasant due to too many people.
The one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering that befalls children is not to bring them into this world of diseases, crimes, wars, accidents, natural disasters, old age, death, and all the unknown evils the future holds. ☮ At the same time, by not coming into existence, they are not being deprived of any of the "goods" this world has to offer, because to be deprived, one must exist first. You cannot deprive something that doesn't exist. ✨
And also the one and only way to prevent all of the antonyms of the words you mentioned, most of the arguments for antinatilism can just be switched around with their wording and they're all of a sudden natalist
@@luigigaming2717 A better stance to take is that the level of suffering in the world isn't worth it, regardless of if there's more pleasure or not. If everyone in the world had no suffering, beyond very minor things, except one good person who lived in misery, then it'd be better off for life to disappear it meant saving him and stopping more rarities like him from popping up. It's a subjective stance, since morality is subjective, but any natalist that has considered this moral issue is completely evil in my eyes. Having a kid, after all, is about "Me me me. I want. I want. I want." People have kids because they want them due to their primitive instincts. Their selfish morality comes in afterwards to justify it to make themselves feel better.
@@MythicMk.V so you're literally saying ALL life should dissapear because one good person is miserable, this is so utterly beyond ridiculous if you can't see the problem with it then it isn't worth arguing. My argument against AN is that human progress has made the vast majority of peoples lives better. Even in 3rd world countries are preferable to having to hunt in the ice age with massive deadly animals and disease everywhere. Taking a look at this, then saying let's stop all progress and future endeavors because it sucks right now is incredibly short sighted and lazy.
Considering that the average first world person will produce ~500-800 tons of carbon (depending on your sources) in its life time, i got a feeling that the planet would agree with Benatar.
That's kinda ironic because they aren't producing CO2 are they? They're releasing trapped CO2 that was once part of the biosphere, but was then unfortunately buried through geological processes and made unavailable to life. All life on earth is built on a backbone of carbon, hence carbon based life forms. Make it bio-unavailable as it has been becoming and the biosphere decreases towards extinction. Release it and it'll reintegrate back into earths biology and the total mass of biological organisms will increase massively over the next several million years. The carbon that was trapped which we are releasing is a huge boost to life on earth in the long run. It may even end the ice age cycles and the massive die offs that accompany them. It may not be a great climate for humans but you don't see many biologists freaking out about the added atmospheric carbon.
This entire philosophy hinges on the statement that experiencing suffering is bad. And while that may be true for gratuitous suffering, meaningful suffering is something to be treasured.
There is no meaningful suffering. You will not learn anything from suffering. You will not gain anything from suffering. You're just the usual NPC coping.
@@bramsteenhoek2674the gratitude for having experienced someone wonderful in one’s life is a special feeling not possible without that person ever having existed/that person not being able to depart from existence
@@ayylmao2710 This is subjective and not applicable to everyone's life. Not everyone will think it is worth for them or for others to live and so we shouldn't decide for anyone else whether their life is worth living.
I just found your brilliant channel through Lawrence Anton, and I have subscribed. I am a diehard, adamant antinatalist and I do believe creating a new person is the more immoral, unspeakably cruel, unethical SIN that can ever be committed. Every person born suffers and dies. This is completely unacceptable to me, and even though I have had some good times (even though they ended), I wish with all my heart I had never been born.
Man I've been an antinatalist for quite a while following the human self-extinction movement. I didn't know about authors and it was a really motivating analysis 😅 I don't know if this is a philosophical issue, but I always get confused when asking people why they want or have children. I get 3 kinds of answers mostly: it's what you're supposed to do (no reflection at all on the matter), I want to further my genes (why, are your genes special?), I need someone to take care of me in my last years (apparently they're free labor). All these motivations seem absolutely self-serving. And when I try bringing up antinatalism, people get super defensive and confused. One time I was speaking with a group where a guy said how he was frustrated that he and his wife had not been able to conceive. I suggested adoption and he said but I want it to be mine! I said but why? and there it ended, the guy didn't give me an answer. It seems to be so taboo to suggest to not reproduce.
My life is worse than I think? According to who and why does their opinion matter more than mine? If I’m not thinking about the bad parts of my life they must not be that bad since I’m not thinking about them?
Funny enough, I was actually antinatalist when I was a Christian. I thought it was absolutely stupid to bring a child in this world, risking them going to hell when they didn’t ask to be here. Then you’re wasting time, raising a child that could’ve been better spent on spreading the gospel to people that are already here😂. In my mind, it was a greater good to not have children, and even to remain single like Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7. He literally said that it was better to remain single so that you could be fully devoted to God, and avoid the distractions that come with family.
The world we live in drives people to suicide. I'm certainly never bringing somebody else into it just because I selfishly want the experience of being a parent. The risk is too high for me, especially considering that even the best of lives will contain significant suffering. edit: Would love to see a video on 'The Last Messiah' at some point. It is an essay by Peter Zapffe on how humans deal with existential dread and it has an antinatalist conclusion.
But the suffering is what makes life truly beautiful. Lack of it will only make us take our privileges for granted and without suffering there's no meaning of life. Think of it as the opposites are necessary for a balance that this universe needs, be it the vast universe itself or our little universe (our life).
@@allanc_me763 only people who suffers from an existential crisis says so, that if you dont exist you don't suffer. Well I'd rather exist to experience the bliss of this life as well as sufferings. Nietzsche said, if the pain doesn't kill me, it will only make me stronger. So live for power and grace despite all the sufferings that this world has to offer. And by power I don't mean control over people like dictators.
Remember, your job at Walmart is actually fulfilling; you're just being selfish for not wanting to add 2 or 3 more smiling associates to the Walmart family.
Yes can't wait for my kid to learn responsibility by getting yelled at for minimum wage...its gonna be so sweet. Having a kid brought me joy, so now i can watch them struggle just like me. Obviously parents usually don't consider it that deep. Its usually in the moment short term stuff like can we afford a baby right now, do we need a bigger place, and other short term stuff. Rarely is it about the child's future. Many people don't have a pot to piss in and popping out kids.
This makes so little sense, so you are calling out other for not condemning it so „deep“ yet you don’t consider anything at all deep. You yourself made such a shallow remark that it’s just total hypocrisy of the greatest magnitude
I have spoken to many people who started being su!cidal at the tender age of 7. Although, at that age, I questioned many things such as religion, and why I had to go to school, I was overall a happy kid that played a lot. I never knew people would consider leaving this world at such a young age, until i got older and created this page.
@@antinatalistwitch111 Sometimes, and in some people, the urge to fade away can be extremely powerful. It's not a weakness of character or a lack of intelligence. It's not a lack of empathy or a moral failing. It's simply a personality trait. Some people would rather opt out painlessly. Once we recognize this we can better address the "problem."
Is life better without any suffering ? What is suffering , is stubbing your toe the same as having your family taken from you , is suffering an opportunity to learn . Do you suffer having children ? Is suffering necessary for a meaningful life ? Does overcoming suffering give meaning to life ? Is a meaningful life dependent on learning to overcome suffering ?
I'm an author, and I can say that without suffering, nothing is interesting, and even worse that nothing being interesting, nothing is appreciated and no one can prove their love
Life, or should I just say... physics doesn't care if you receive the right amount of suffering to help you learn your lesson. You could experience any amount whether fair/useful or not... you could easily experience an absurd amount of it which outweighs any pleasure dramatically. As was already mentioned in the video, suffering does outweigh pleasure. Take physical pain for example. It's easy to stimulate the body to induce extreme pain, but a message or orgasm doesn't even come remotely close to the intensity of pain in the body. It might as well be a tickle compared to a sledgehammer to the face. But also, life could literally just be pain... and then you die. Get a horrid condition from birth(or while in the womb) and there can only be suffering... Then there is something that convinces me completely that life is a mistake. And that is... unimaginable pain. When you're immersed in that suffering, it is beyond words... It's terrifying to think that pain goes far beyond your tolerance for it. It just keeps going, and when you think it couldn't possibly get worse it does. What's even more unsettling is that we don't really know how bad the pain can theoretically get, what would be the limit? I sure as hell don't want to find out or experience anything remotely close to it.
I’m wondering how this works with: A lack of free will (determinism). Einstein’s Block Universe - a universe where (from a certain perspective, it seems) all lives have always existed. A Quantum Universe (the many worlds interpretation) - a universe among countless universes with differing outcomes encompassing all logical possibilities. Kantian Deontology - wherein this is a universal rule throughout the Cosmos. Utilitarianism - wherein this is a universal rule throughout the Cosmos. Aristotle’s Virtue Ethics - wherein it seems without sentient creatures, virtue is no longer a thing. The Evidential Problem of Evil - wherein there seems to be overwhelming gratuitous pain and suffering. In this case, better not to have a Universe at all?
The flaw in the asymmetry principle is that he assigns a small value to pleasure and a value of infinity to suffering. That means a small amount of suffering will always outweigh a large amount of pleasure. A good life always includes some degree of suffering. The ratio of good vs bad is important, but you can't do that when one of the variables is infinity.
@@mdgprogrammerbut why would I even morally consider them until they exist in the first place? It seems completely irrational to consider the moral rights of a potential being.
I admire the rich people that can wrap their heads around it. Many people living ideal lives, usually don't understand how someone could not enjoy this planet. If working 9-5s and partying on the weekend is good enough for people, i don't. Society is just about making money and taking advantage of one another.
@@nandhakishor103 Can YOU not comprehend what I was saying? My point was that her other reason shouldn't matter. Simply being a lesbian alone is enough of a reason to not have kids.
@@thelemurofmadagascar9183 Yeah coz you want to bring unnecessary topics here. The reason which you gave is your reason. Although children need better privileges, it's not their rights. Poor, homeless people have kids because they are able to give birth and they think it's their rights because it is, but their children are not getting better conditions. Nobody can question this but when homosexual couples having children everyone loses their cool. Lesbians should have the right, but that doesn't mean they making children is a good thing.
Another interesting argument I’ve seen put forth for antinatalism argues purely off of the principle of consent as an intrinsic good. If one believes that making life-altering decisions without a person’s consent is immoral then bringing that person into life would be the penultimate decision behind killing them. The conclusion this leads to then is not only is bringing someone into the world immoral, but also having them live through childhood, as they are forced into being a moral agent that cannot consent themselves until they are adults, depriving them of consent for most of their lives. I still disagree with this argument, but I think it’s thought provoking on determining just how valuable consent is.
Counter point, how can someone who does not exist, consent or not consent? You'd have to wait until they exist first and then ask for their consent to exist. But of course by then its too late. Furthermore I could see this logic being applied to abortion to make an anti choice argument, that abortion is always a violation of consent. So I don't really find this argument compelling
@@calebr7199 well (playing devil’s advocate here) to be fair, if this were true the phrase “I did not ask to be born” would be a nonsensical phrase, but it isn’t because it is true that they did not consent, and unless there is some third option between consent and non-consent it’s a pretty clear cut dichotomy. Also the consequence of this view would definitely be a pro choice one since it would actively be against bringing more life into the world ergo violating their consent to begin existing.
Nah, I still regret being alive, it seems like life doesn’t get any better. I was holding on in my teens in hope that life would get better in adulthood - that was a lie. Now I’m only alive because I don’t want to hell and I have a parent that needs my help.
Yeah I think life just doesn’t feel like it’s worth living but perhaps in meaningful suffering there is a value in life that we can’t directly feel or understand.
@@justinegerhazi6829 there's no value, imo we all die, no point even if to live mostly own desired successful life, not worth it I am just most jealous of "those" "non-exist,unborn"
Shouldnt you take pity on your Parents and assist them in ending their suffering rather than perniciously attempting to prolong their suffering and assist them in clinging to it? I dont agree with any kind of anti-natalist argument. But if you determine that your own life is the source of your suffering, then feel free to end it. Control your destiny, stop bemoaning it.
My grandma told me and my brother that we will look so much better with 3-4 kids. I was gonna say straight to her face: Girl Ik u ain’t talking cause u had 10 kids but were poor asf, ur poozay was destroyed, and yet, some of my uncles and aunts turned out to be stupid ass people. Why did my grandma have 10 kids bruh??? It was not necessary, the world was not ending bruh, my mom wasn’t even given a childhood and even worked as fucking waitress at 9 years old… I do sometimes cry for my mom and she wasn’t given a lot, and she wanted to become a lawyer… sadly, it didn’t come true……………….. she was forced to give up her dreams just because my grandma’s broke ass couldn’t provide NOTHING.
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You resemble the subject in Alexandre Cabanel's The Fallen Angel. I think you in that pose would make for an iconic profile picture.
👋
Excellent analysis of Benetar's arguments.
I personally haven't found any compelling arguments against Benetar's version of Antinatalism........ therefore I consider myself an Antinatalist.
Pain is necessary as pleasure so is life and death, their ideas from an antique era are obsoletes
For now there is levels of consciousness, evolution beyond a flesh prison there is necessary indeed to live this life so is to evolve to a new dimension.
Virgins don't give birth to immortal rabbis. You're not just delusional, you're brainwashed by Semitic garbage. The only 'Messiah' we were ever gonna get was the Austrian Painter.
Thank you for the subtitles.
"This video would be several hours long" Who said this would be a bad thing?
Agreed
His editor
The software that has to hold everything and upload it to TH-cam lol
Agreed would totally watch
No one was harmed in the not-making of my children. In fact, no one even noticed.
😂
until the people who made children decided they wanted to go to war with the people who didn't make children
Morbid humour 😂
@@anonymoose478children makers are the worst type of sanctimonious aholes out there!
Until they did notice until the future you could make a 16 on that one, they don't like it I'll do it later? You can't have a child If your being assaulted by perception ...
The curse of my bloodline (cripplingly debilitating mental illness) ends with ME.
That doesn’t really say much to if you are or aren’t having children
Since you could end it by not having kids
Or end it by having kids and in most cases those things just naturally wouldn’t happen and if they did you can help end it
you are weak. Instead of being strong and overcoming this challenge, you decide to surrender, and end your bloodline, even though your ancestors tried hard to continue their lineage. When you will die, there will be no piece of you in this world, you will perish. Children are continuation of us, a key to immortality, people in history suffered so much worse stuff, yet they persevered. I have no right to tell you what to do, you are free to do whatever you want, yet I wish for you to be better, curses can be healed after few generations if you live healthy life and don't inbreed
@@AmirSattDoes it really matter if he is strong or weak? Why do you desire to continue existing after death? You won’t be there to see what comes after, so why place the ultimate purpose of existence on something like permanence? Is existence not given value by its scarcity?
@@authaire Same here. Though I'm getting a lot of hate over the fact that I condemn my mother for being a Nazi as well as mentally ill. Which is absurd.
@@AmirSatt calling him weak wont help anything
As someone who stubbed his toe the other day, I can confirm I resent my mother for bringing me into this world in which one such as myself can so easily stub his toe
Yes, the female has to allow the male to enter...but she can't get impregnated with out semen... we're all just walking talking toiling urinating eating defecating sperm... Nothing more
Then why are you still here?
@@chazrooks4681 it's a joke, probably.
@@chazrooks4681 my guy that was so obviously a joke 😭
yep
Just like Idiocracy. The people who keep having kids are frequently the people who shouldnt be having kids
Exactly why eugenics is a inevitable nessesity in modern civilisation.
We’re not quite there entirely yet. Only partially..
Says the person with no romantic options. Enjoy being cut out of the gene pool. 😂
@@srealone788 still a ways to go. But we are well on the way
@@TheDemonx55 I mean? I somewhat agree with that. I see it now more likely. Than ever. At the same time? I think there’s a slight bit of hope for some of us. I mean? I’ve reproduced and my kids are phenomenal and mean well in this world. I see them doing big things. And hopefully doing more to help to turn this world around than to add to its dysfunction. So there’s that, at least..
Ironically, the people I know and have met (and seen on TV) who are AGGRESSIVELY preachy about “life is hard! That’s just life! Stop whining! You work hard, you get by, you make sacrifices, occasionally get something semi-worthwhile, you die! Deal with it! Don’t whine, just sacrifice your dreams, work your ass off, and retire!” Are the same people who aggressively say “you NEED to have children! It’s wrong to not have children! You’re not an adult until you have children, and it’s mandatory you become an adult!”
Life isn't hard now. It's inhospitable.
@@siddharthkrishna7249 Our ancestors have triumphed through far worse.
@@RighteousInquisition just because life is less shit doesn't mean life isn't still shit
@@RighteousInquisition They didn't triumph dipshit. They struggled and suffered through it as life doesn't care who or what you are. We're bits of dust passing through, just ask people in Gaza if they've "triumphed" through Genocide. Because a lot of people have had whole scale families and communities wiped off the face of the earth as if they had never been born at all. Glorifying it doesn't make the physical or psychological problems go away, they stick with you for life. And that in of itself is a bi-product of being born.
true!
"I didn't have children, I didn't pass on the legacy of our misery to any creature."
- posthumous memories of Brás Cubas - Machado de Assis.
Nunca imaginei ver Machado de Assis aqui!
Também achei incrível @@tablettablete186
Toperson!
Machado de Assis is such a genius yet so little known author.
Who tf is that guy?😂
I think the reason why antinatlism is so unnatractive is because it hinges on you having to accept that life is almost inherently bad. To accept the arguments conclusion is a pretty big leap for most and it does indeed feel like a doom and gloom situation
"to accept that life is almost inherently bad" , well why would one accept that if they find life to be inherently good? That's how I see life, my life for exemple is inherently good, I cherish it, I cherish everyday of it , I cherish the life of my loved one, if I could I would make it last much longer, so... why would you want me to admit anything else?
It also tends to be self-fulfilling. Cynical outlooks of the world generally lead towards a path of misery.
And it seems to weigh pleasure and suffering equally
Tbh I became an antinatalist when I learned how common s.a. is with most people, yes women AND men. A lot of us are made victims at children and teens. Not even adults yet. Children and TEENS.
@@AntiGamer-de8vp you are the poster child of ignorance is bliss.
As an antinatalist one of the most annoying things to explain to people is the idea of not wanting to exist is not the same as wanting to die. I want to minimalize suffering and I know that if I die it'll bring suffering to my loved ones negating the whole point.
Would you have preferred to be born as someone else?
Sameee. I just didn’t want to exist. I won’t k!ll myself now… but if I had a choice of vanishing from existence and take with me the memory of my being, I would.
Don’t worry. What is infinitely more annoying to others is your intellectually juvenile and pedantic philosophy.
Honestly, you probably shouldn't tell people you are an antinatalist. In the moment, people will only respond emotionally and misinterpret your arguments no matter what, so maybe antinatalism isn't the best conversation starter :)) (unless you're in a specific setting, like a philosophy class)
@@naturalisted1714 it would be better but not the best
I'm a nonconsensual product of an illicit affair between a mistress and a married man. The universe showing mercy to my lineage by making me infertile. The lineage ends with me.
Good. My children will have more space and resources for a better life. Ty for your service.
Ironically, th best response to delusions of these kind@@arnowisp6244
Non-consensual product!? What a nonsensical paradox.
So "bastards" don't deserve to live?
@@arnowisp6244 assuming if you're child is a clone of yourself, based on your behavior they're eventually come down the road of self loathing.
They're not blessed to be born in abundance, only cursed to live in a fruitless future anyway.
I sat on the toilet for 15 minutes and nothing came out but I can feel it. Living is Dying
💀
I'm 33 single with no kids and trust me I stayed single because this world is too evil to bring a child!!! I don't want them to suffer so I'd rather suffer alone!!
Natural selection, good.
Me too I'm way far off being even secure in housing, I'm not bringing any kid to the world
This is exactly what the elites want. While careful and smart people don't breed, idiots are having millions of babies.
@@MentodayAtAccording to statistics, the most infertile are the middle class with an intelligence of over one hundred, like population of South Korea, China, Japan, most Europe an etc, on other hand: most fertility have africans 🫣 If you dont understand it mean "negative selection"
@@MentodayAt
More like capitalism and economics and corruption. No income security is no freedom.
Though not ungrateful - yet I wish I was never born. The pain and suffering outweighs the pleasure or just being satisfied with the current state at times throughout my life. Yeah, I'm not continuing the cycle of bringing more beings into this existence. 🤗
a new unsolicited advice vid is just what i need after a weeklong stay in a hospital (i got hit by a motorcycle 🙂)
Oh God I hope you are okay!
Good time for this video lol but fr get well soon man
Hope you get well soon.
@@b1a8nka guy is hit by a cycle and your first thought is "gotcha, you aren't a true atheist".... A phrase is a phrase and when one is so commonly in use a person may use it. Be better and thankful the accident didn't happen to you.
Been hit ON a motorcycle but never by one. Hope you’re back on your feet soon.
THANK YOU FOR COVERING THIS TOPIC!!
as an antinatalist. THANK YOU. this is the only video I've seen on the topic that talks about it honestly instead of intentionally misrepresenting it as some kind of death cult.
U should watch Lawrence anton
❤PLEASE READ -->
If you believe in God you better stop your mind engine 🚂 and just trust god... Cuz he is the only one who knows about in which harm there is good hidden... Just think of the great philosophers that passed...whose judgement is greater... the creation or the creator?...God's judgement is infallible cuz look at the complexity and uniformity of this universe beyond our comprehension... He knows whether having childen is good or not...and if you look in the holy books there is no such anti natalist commandment... For all we know, we could look back at life while in heaven and rejoice the fact we lived and struggled on through life... According to me, the first responsibility of a person should be finding the true religion... Cuz god would have not have left us without guidance... Even I am struggling with this topic and just carrying on with the last straw of hope...
Peace, from North India ,
Do share ur opinions❤
P.S. i learnt a lot from myself while writing this message
Ok death cultist...
Death cult? 🤔🤔🤨🤨😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 People love to place a label upon something they don't comprehend
extinction cult?
The only reason I'm not having kids is because I don't want to subject them to poverty. Me and my partner can barely afford a comfortable life. So no can do until we are sure we can afford and give the kid a life they deserve.
that is sad , especially when our dog worshipping world feeds top quality food to dogs while people go hungry
No kid deserves this
Growing up I ate stale food bank food and supported myself with a paper route from the time I was 6. I think I had some health problems from it and was slightly undernourished. I'm glad my parents had me though. Grateful to be alive and have a chance to experience things. I was probably happiest when I was young and poorly fed and working hard tbh. Dad couldn't work since I was born. Had a psychotic breakdown
During this video I saw an ad for appeal to donate for children in Gaza and I think it's enough to make a decision about Anti-Natalism
But then does that mean only people that are suffering shouldn't have kids? And what about positive self evaluation? And shouldn't the right to choose one or one's child's life be in their hands?
@@saajiddaya2152 Everyone should have right to decide it themselves but when it comes to me I am not bringing anyone in this world where people are suffering like this
You're weak willed. @@abdulmonum8847
@@saajiddaya2152 kids are only to be brought to this world under sustainable environments. It is immoral to bring offspring to where you know they'll suffer.
@@saajiddaya2152 The right to have a child should not be in anyone's hands but the child. Which it can't decide, so let's not decide for it.
All blood lines will end eventually
Yeah in 2.5 billion years when the sun swallows the earth whats your point. Intellectual nihilism is so 2012, im over it.
In a word, no. Gengis Khan and mitochondrial Eve would like a word with you. Look up haplogroups my guy. Even if you cash out, your relatives live on.
Funny because it is fully false, we are all related, although it's not true that we were born from two ancestors, rather from hundreds of thousands
There can only be one
yeah when the human race becomes extinct lol.
I think it would be really interesting if you made a video combining Antinatalist and Ernest Becker's "Denial of Death". I really think these two philosophies go hand-in-hand. Becker makes a very good argument for why we evolutionarily desire offspring, desire a legacy, and why we wish to be remembered (hint: Our inherent fear of death)
Interesting, I must be not afraid of it.
@@OlgaKors Have you read Denial of Death or watched any videos on it? Do you know what TMT is!l? Do you know who Sheldon Solomon is?
Absolutely this! Thomas Ligotti's "The Conspiracy Against The Human Race" is a stark, entertaining and accessible digest of Becker, Zapffe etc. and Terror Management Theory in general for those that don't fancy something too long and technical. Ligotti writes horror, mostly, so it's a very colourful and evocative book, too.
Indeed, Benatar's other important book "The Human Predicament" takes this topic seriously.
First things first, I love how your example for most handsome man on earth was Henry Cavill. The Henry Cavill fans appreciate it.
He is pretty much the ideal man, there's not many guys I would consider better looking. I say this as a heterosexual man.
@@farisakhtar4824 there's not many celebrities you mean. The world is filled with more beautiful people than HC. I like HC but I don't consider him the uber beautifulest man 🙄
Cavill's another moron who believes Germans were the bad guys in WWII.
And that man is on his way to becoming a dad . Guess the good looking genes won't stop with him 😂
Meh..he's ok, nothing great in my eyes.
Pain; emotional,physical, mental, financial. Pain.😢 Every day hurts.
Society: then have a kid. That'll make you feel better🤮
Skill issue. OG Buddha showed the way. It's just the universe/your body telling you you're doing it wrong.
@@Darksky600 skill issue
No skill issues. We can endure all this. This doesn't mean it's not experienced. Every day, someone is going through something, and you can't invalidate what they're going through. As living beings, we seek to find comfort, safety, and avoid pain. Every day is a battle for those needs.
@@Darksky600 Muh life is bad cuz I can't live in perpetual euphoria.
I find myself unable to escape the grip of pessimism, a force that has entwined itself with my belief in antinatalism. The weight of it all stems from one unavoidable realization: the sheer magnitude of suffering occurring at this very moment in the world.
Somewhere, an animal is being torn apart, eaten alive, driven by nature's cruelty. A child, innocent and undeserving, is wasting away in agony from bone cancer. Thousands are caught in the throes of mental illness, some choosing death as their only escape, while millions others persevere - not out of hope, but out of obligation, fear, or resignation. The scale of this suffering, the unfathomable and relentless pain experienced by sentient beings, is almost too much to truly comprehend.
To truly see this suffering, to FEEL it, to look into the abyss and witness the horror of existence in its rawest form-how can one declare this world worthy of continuation? How can we speak of life as a gift when the cost is borne by so many, in so many terrible ways?
And that is only for this moment in time. The suffering we experience now is unbearable enough, but to imagine it continuing indefinitely into the future-generation after generation, life after life-feels utterly terrifying. Worse still, there seems to be no grand purpose, no reason to justify this constant stream of pain. If there is no reason, no inherent meaning behind the suffering, then why should life persist?
It is this overwhelming reflection on suffering that keeps me tethered to antinatalism. The world, in all its brutality, seems to me an unjust and unbearable place to continue perpetuating. I cannot, in good conscience, argue for life in a world so full of suffering.
PLEASE READ -->
If you believe in God you better shut your mind engine 🚂 and just trust god... Cuz he is the only one who knows about in which harm there is good hidden... Just think of the great philosophers that passed...whose judgement is greater... the creation or the creator?...God's judgement is infallible cuz look at the complexity and uniformity of this universe beyond our comprehension... He knows whether having childen is good or not...and if you look in the holy books there is no such anti natalist commandment... For all we know, we could look back at life while in heaven and rejoice the fact we lived and struggled on through life... According to me, the first responsibility of a person should be finding the true religion... Cuz god would have not have left us without guidance... Even I am struggling with this topic and just carrying on with the last straw of hope...
Peace, from North India ,
Do share ur opinions❤
P.S. i learnt a lot from myself while writing this message
Consider looking at the sun, consider the sensation of air flowing over your skin, consider the smell of flowers.
I think it is worth to be torn apart by other animals, so that I can experience this again.
If I would have to live every life of every sentient creature, then I would still create the universe.
@@colinn1898 wow you are really optimistic... Where are you from?
breeders will read what you wrote and say: "ooh he is just so depressed, bla bla bla"
breeders = morans
here is a sensitive soul. and i do not say that with contempt
"Having children is a crime (for someone rational). You, who can choose, do not impose the burden of life on someone who is in the peace of nothingness" - Fernando Vallejo.
The act of making childeren is dionysian, while reason is apollonian.
Your vidoes needs to be way more popular i swear to god
anyone in history who had the brain circuitry that swayed toward anti-natalism didn’t have children, therefore the genes for that brain circuitry are not passed on, and on the opposite spectrum the people who had a brain circuitry that prioritised procreation had more kids and those genes got spread more, as a result the vast majority of people will be under some level of illusion and bias when considering anti-natalism
and yes i understand the brain doesn’t quite work like that, but those are two significant enough selective pressures that I think they have an impact
i’ve found alot of people to be hostile and ridicule AN, and it makes sense
you are fighting with the powers of evolution
Yes I think so too.
I also believe that life became so safe and comfortable that anti natalists voices became louder than they would otherwise have been throughout history.
Because faced wirh tyranny, famine, disease, war etc. those who don't cherish life would just have perished instead of being dragged along by progress and lamenting the agony of existence.
That's not how evolution works, also ideas survive.
I think the powers of evolution aren’t necessarily bad.
You can never fight evolution buddy , you are an aspect of it , malfunctioned cell in a body which is the society that you belong to , since you lack coping mechanism and melancholic tendencies you turned out this way
And the whole premise of "suffering=bad" is a product of evolution. So to land at antinatalism as a philosophy (not even in a pure efilist form of "fuck everything everyone should die" which i could respect, but in its redditor pseudointelectual false superiority form, where you accept all the presuppositions about life that are nice and comfy, EXCEPT reproduction which is inseparable from anything close to a "normal" life) is clearly laughable to anyone whose brain hasnt melted from other peoples ideas. This is where the hordes of prototypical empty egg carton cat ladies who try and convince you their life of binging netflix and getting lost in another random hobby every couple months is more fulfilling and virtuous than the alternate universe version of them that has children. Everyone can see only this kind of person could construct a worldview with all the pieces in place keeping a childlike view of life, except reproduction strategically plucked out. Ideally these people would be left to their fantasies and internet echochambers.
Even depressed nihilist teenagers who adopt antinatalism as just another one of the life=bad philosophies are closer to the truth
To those who consider anti-natalists weak or immoral, - what do you think about monsters who abuse or even torture and murder their own kids.
Are they better than anti-natalists?
No they are not. But an antinatalist won't solve anything at all...
Evolution will backfire once again and create potential conscious creatures.
Yes.
@bbainter7880 why?
Immoral? Probably not... but weak? Definitely! And I think people that weak should not procreate... oh wait they already don't 😂, problem solved without even becoming a problem, lol
Free will isn't real and his breeder mind is programmed to say yes, that's all. Think of it as a gta npc repeating lines.
I’m 51. Never been married and never had kids. Life couldn’t be better.
You are wiser than most.
You're male. Could have told you at conception you were never having kids. Men cannot
If it was really better, you wouldn't be telling us. Get some help.
@@luismatute8024wtf is your problem? He is content with his life, i don’t think he needs your advice.
@@luismatute8024 Nah, it’s better.
Thank you for taking the time to cover Antinatilism.
Just because I personally think consciously bringing another soul into this world is an absolutely poor and unfathomable decision does not mean that I am of the opinion that those who think otherwise should be forcefully prevented from doing so.
I wish the kids all the best luck, but I'm not interested in saving the world from itself anymore.
no one is saying force anyone to do anything. I think its good to have the conversation. If your parents thought about antinatlism more, you may not even be here...think about that.
@iaintgonlie7858
Do you think the people who entertain these trains of thought haven't considered these aspects?
If my mother had known about antinatalism and opted not to have me, I simply would not be here, and that would be that. But she didn't, and I am, and that's all there is to that. I am not emotionally tied to or distraught by the idea that I might not have been born due to another version of my mother's choice.
What's poor and unfathomable about that? 💀
So you're basically fine with breeders committing a crime (bringing children into this horrible miserable evil world). Sure, you can't force them not to breed but at least you should be against it in every way.
@@Life-Taught-man What is wrong with having children tf?
Humans are not animals who procreate only as an instinct. Humans can think and rationalise that bringing children into a life of suffering is not a good decision. Humans have reached the level of advancement to be able to prevent conception. So humans HAVE the CHOICE of not having children.
@@ingenuity296 love the human-centric bias there. As if literally no one critter on earth exhibits sexual selection or avoids mating when resources are short or will abandon some of their young to save the rest when resources are critically low.
+150 years after Darwin and we still think we have a soul hahaha you got to laugh
The problem with your reasoning: you are trying to rationalize actions that have no moral origin, but because you can't rationalize them you assume they are inherently bad. We don't rationalize eating, breathing, desire, shitting, or any other basic human function because its silly to do so. We can decide when such things are appropriate to do, but whether doing them at all is okay isn't something that makes sense questioning. Try rationalizing existence, you can't. It's as good as you make it, and you can only determine if that was true once your life is ending.
When has life being easy? You have a weird comprehension of life and happiness.
@@kant.68 Do not have children. They won't thank you for it.
@@ingenuity296 Oh this is just one of those blackpilled reddit incel movements.
Thank you for covering this topic. It is very taboo and a lot of people misunderstand it or react really agressively to it. In the end it's about compassion, and prevention of harm. Got my vasectomy at 26 years of age because of this philosophy!
@@bdnnijs192lmao u are a true idiot nazism and antinatalism are not comparable at all this is a strawman
There are also just a lot of people who reject the initial argument that life is about maximizing pleasure and avoiding pain.
I dont want to have children because I don’t want them to suffer. As I myself don’t want it so I don’t want to wish it upon anybody. See? You feel obliged to your child and responsible for them because after all you’re the one that brought them to this earth and if they suffer you sort of relatively must have some kind of responsibility. Although I said life is more suffering (the majority) than pleasure therefore it’s not worth living. Even tho some people may argue struggle is also beautiful and wanted I myself disagree personally. So I’d want to minimize suffering thus not wanting kids UNLESS I have an abundance of money status and opportunities even then it’s not garantuee, I’d not want a child. This doesn’t mean wanting to die or hate life I still see life as beautiful but that is concluded from many sufferings which I deem isn’t worthy of a price to pay for very few happiness in life
I assune Benarmtar had no kids... "Having kids creates suffering that has no cost for the parent"... If your kid suffers, you suffer, it has a cost... If your kid is suffering and you don't feel anything clarly there's an issue with your psyche...
Not always .. and you just argued on behalf of Benatar😂 that now makes multiple people suffering.😂😂
Antinatalism CANNOT be argued with...
Most parents don't care that their children suffer. Most parents don't even care that they imposed a death sentence on their own children.
@andresmicalizzi5420 Many are suffering in secret.., have you seen the suicide rates… many parents don’t even know the extent of suffering their children face until it’s too late
I’ve not had kids (yet, im 43) and it’s very unlikely I will. I’m not against other people having kids. But tbh, for myself, I don’t really want to be responsible for passing on my genes and all the health problems I have had. It feels cruel to subject another human being to likely similar issues and worries. Not to mention the social political world they would inherit. If I had them, It would be for purely selfish reasons (so I may be less lonely in old age), and not for any other higher or virtuous reason. So it’s very unlikely to happen.
Would you wish to have not been born despite your later in life health concerns?
Would you say your life didn’t hold value because it having some uncomfortably and even suffering? I wouldn’t believe you do
I’m sure you are glad you were born instead of just…never existing at all
So because of that why would you make the choice to purposefully not let someone else exist? (Ignoring your current situation and how unlikely you believe it to be. For this hypothetical question let’s assuming you’re seeing someone and have the choice to or not to bring someone into the world)
When the world needs dragonslayers most is precisely when there's dragons to slay.
43 here too, female, African...not easy here as a woman is given more value for being a mother. Been through hell and back...why bring a child here to go through worse maybe?
@@gabrielsalahi3656 What someone else are you talking about? Is there a line of people somewhere waiting to exist? Where are they? I would like to check up on them to see if they are weeping and sad because they aren't alive.... What kind of stupid logic is this?!?!?! Hahahahah.
yeah people care too much about passing on their genes. You will be dead and gone, why exactly is having kids that important to you. Not talking about you obviously...just the whole bloodline thing..who gives a fuck. Do we think about our ancestors...probably not.
I will continue to resent my parents for doing so. However, I'm not a quitter. I'm here and I'll do what I can with that. Although I go to bed every night hoping it's the last. What im not gonna do however, is bring a child into this sad pathetic world.
CAN WE GET A GODDAMN AMEN FOR THAT!
That's sad
It's merciful @@SuperBlueSky105
@@SuperBlueSky105 it is what it is.
You sound like a quitter
My siblings, friends, coworkers and in some cases people I don’t even know have said to me that I can’t possibly be happy being childless. But I am. I’m not antinatalist, at least not with regard to other people. I find it both curious and frustrating that others insist on imposing their belief in natalism on me….??
they want to suck you into the cult =) RESIST!
i dont want to have kids just because i just dont want to be a parent and that's it 🤷♂️
This is perfectly valid :)
Blessing to know yourself not fit to be a parent than those who become parents just bc of societal expectations and/or reached their early middle ages
@@Buydaa.M Often, philosophy is beside the point.
Very selfish… but having kids is selfish too soooooo 😂
@@Justjoey17 everything can be selfish if you (over)think hard enough🙃
As someone who's life revolves around children, I feel this video is relevant. People are too selfish and materialistic, self obsessed with their own feelings to understand the beauty of children. I have my degree in early childhood development, am mom of 3 and run an in-home preschool, former center teacher. Children are life, they are the light. I intend to keep their lives magical and the light in their hearts and eyes alive. I love being a mom and feel so incredibly blessed to be close to so many children. That being said, not everyone should have kids. They are not an accessory to a presentable life, nor an extension of the ego. I hope more people consider the real responsibility of bringing a child into this world. Loving children always requires a transmutation of one's own pain into Agape. This takes quite a bit of energy!
The same can be said about having children. People choose to have children because THEY wanted to. They thought it was a good move for THEM. Becoming parents is fulfilling for THEM. Children were ti fulfill THEIR desires. Having children made THEM feel good. Isn't that selfish, or self obsessed?
If your child grew up and asked you, Mom, why did you have me? I'm tired of life and all its struggles. Unlike you, I don't want to deal with misery and pain. You won't always be around, and when I'm old, I might suffer from disease, loneliness, or even both. Why bring me into this world? How would you respond?
@@smtkumar007 Good question.
@smtkumar007 I'm not sure how I would respond without having a real situation like this. Love and compassion would guide me and help me to listen. What would you tell your parents if they asked you this? How do you feel?
@@chervargas5525 Another good question.
Thank you so much for doing what you do. I’ve been watching your channel religiously for the past several months, the few days between uploads are an anxious wait indeed.
With the current state of the world, it seems almost cruel to bring a child into it.
You're absolutely right. The real tragedy is how few people realize that.
@@Transmutathanto be a harmless rabbit in a pit full of ferocious dogs is the act of an idiot
@@Transmutathan Not having children is the best choice I can make.
I am always astonished, when I bring up this topic, how quickly discussion derails into accusing someone of being "insane" or "stupid", without adressing the actuall points.
Nice summary, you did not wind up in this trap.
I usualy see the "ur a nihilist deeerp" responses from pro-natalists
I think people are adamant that they’d rather be living whether they suffer or not, and anti-natalist undermine that by saying it’s not worth it.
Schrodinger's baby. You never know whether the baby will have a painful or a pleasurable life until they are concevied
😂
right, so dont roll the dice. go adopt a kid who is already in existence.
I'd rather suffer than not exist at all.
@@TheReneg4deso the dice has been rolled for you😊
@nirodha01 what a pointless thing to think about. I'd rather exist and suffer than never exist. There is meaning and purpose in life, and suffering often reveals that.
Happiness is short and fleeting, suffering is eternal, so best to enjoy all the pain life has to offer.
This is why I'm convinced that everyone who lives (human or any other animal) is a masochist.
@@mishynaofficialno doubt about that it is to some point true. Who likes war but in 21st century we are having 2 wars right next to eachother. So to some degree people are masochist
Suffering is also fleeting.
Any suffering in life is always temporary.
I do enjoy suffering, not the suffering itself, but overcoming and persevering it. I love challenges and competition, I am the kind of guy who goes shirtless at -30 degrees in winter, stuff like this is so much fun. Why can't you be the same? Be as great as you can be?
"Let's bring children into this world, it doesn't matter what pain they're going to go through anyway, that's life"
26 now and the idea of having a child scares the shit out of me. Like, you bring a mind/a soul/whatever you believe in into the world and then you can never protect or ease the pain of this creature. Doesn’t matter how much of a good parent you are, you’ll never be able to understand and help you child enough. I don’t want to multiply the suffering we already have l. One day I might change my mind but it’s highly unlikely
Thanks for paying some attention to this important topic. I’m an antinatalist myself. A couple quotes I resonate with:
“It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place.” - David Benatar
“I do not hate life or desire death, I only regret being born.” - Emil Cioran
Traitor of the Human Species
Not to hate or anything, but I never understood that line of thinking.
As an author, I've noticed every story has conflict, but I've also noticed overcoming that pain with another, is extremely beautiful.
And I've noticed stories without pain, are not stories at all, and the love characters have in them can't be proven or shown, because pain is necessary to know and show you love or enjoy someone.
I also realized that I rather enjoy life. It sucks some times, I have to fight my own mind, but never do I wish I wasn't born. I enjoy certain fights, I don't enjoy others.
I get thinking it's better if things aren't born or made, but ultimately that choice falls to the individual. If you believe it's better to not have children, then don't. As for me, I want to have kids, but first have to find a woman who's willing to go on a date and fall in love with me. That's also a fun fight I enjoy
Parents want to prevent their children from needless suffering, true. No one prior to anti-natalists has ever claimed that everything that can conceptualized as "suffering" should be completely eliminated. Queue example of how muscles grow through tearing or notions of good being worth more than evil in the final calculation, etc.
Lwrence you are one of the wiseset people on earth
@@lovethyneibor22736what a coincidence I never expect to see you here 😂
Tbh i can't see myself having children in a world like this. They will likely have to fight for everything. they own nothing and enjoy nothing. The way the cost of living crisis is going won't be feasible anyway. Plus, i have multiple mental and intellectual disabilities that could be passed down my line. Im a little sad about it,but at the same time day by day im more and more releived i dont have them. Its just added stress and pressure that i dont need.
I stumbled upon your channel the other day, and your videos have been the perfect addition to my late night philosophical, existential train of thought.
I'm not in the state of mind to respond to your points in this video, but I listened and journaled a lot alongside hearing your words.
Thanks for making these videos. You make abstract thinking digestible and fun. Thanks for that :) hope you're having a great Tuesday.
And I hope you are at peace with being born ;)
I'll never understand how people can be in a messed up situation and think to have kids. I hate existing and I'll be damned if I force another being to exist
They have a different world view than you. They look at the roses amid the thorns rather than the opposite.
@@saajiddaya2152 maybe so. I see the good in being human but the trial and tribulations you have to go through to even exist let alone actually live aren't worth it. Especially once you realize that even the things you create will eventually fade away. I suppose human existence is moment to moment along with trails of thoughts and ideas
@@JazBumbkins I guess that's where we differ then. I embrace the hardships of life and you don't (I'm fully aware of the irony of both of us sitting in the West complaining about life when there are people ACTUALLY suffering)
@@saajiddaya2152 That is a funny valid point. Here we are bitching about existing while there's people surviving off of dirt sewer water. Which just proves both of our points further. We're quite literally both ends of spectrum 😂
@@JazBumbkins yeah true
A major flaw in this philosophy is that it seems to simplify life too much. Life is more than just how often you suffer and whether you accomplish your goals. There are many more emotional states to life to consider. In fact, more pleasure in the long term is achieved by working towards, but not reaching your goals and some pain can lead to pleasure or directly cause pleasure at the same time as the pain.
There is no logical flaw in the antinatalism argument due to the reality of death. Every person in the past present and future has and will watch everyone they care about die and then experience their own death. Regardless of any other benefits one may experience, those two most horrible outcomes are promised to everyone who exists. Any rational and reasonably caring human would agree that death of their loved ones and ultimately themselves is the most horrible of outcomes. Therefore the continuation of intelligent life simply continues that pain. Our rationality makes us unique in the animal kingdom. We actually have the opportunity to rationalize above our instinct (procreation) and beat this losing game of life. Why would we not take it? Antinatalism really is the ultimate protection of consent, the ultimate in self actualization and humanity getting to finally control the terms of this game we are stuck in.
You have been fortunate and it has nothing to do with achieving goals,
@@Nox-mb7iuHis position doesn't really assume any goal in life. The example he gave of a child that's predicted to have an amazing life he still argues is not reason enough to force someone to exist
Nobody seems to question the entire premise of using pain or pleasure as a metric. Why use these metrics at all? Why should this be a basis for existence?
How about meaning? Is your life meaningful?
Why should my life be pleasureable? Am I some kind of dopamine machine, or am I a conscious being? There are so many painful experiences that create meaning and value. Working out is painful - I hate doing it - and yet nobody would call that *bad*.
The whole premise the arguments are based on is fundamentally flawed. This is why Benatar's arguments never got anywhere with me - he never examines the oremise of his own arguments, that *pleasure* or *pain* are even useful metrics to begin with.
this video makes me feel like I've found home. I didnt know what I was feeling was called anti-natalism. I've been depressed since I was 13 years old, so over 15 years now and it had been clear to me then as it is now, that this was the only true philosophy to live by. Life is not worth it.
Exactly the problem. Only depressed, nihilistic and unstable people could reasonably hold this kind of thought. I wish you the best, though. I'm not trying to attack you, but just pointing out the main demographic subscribed to this philosophy.
@@dominusantonius in a universe where human lives have no meaning, its downright cruel to bring a child into this world. I cannot see a future where I can truly live my truth and also have a good life. Every newspaper I read just cements these beliefs even more. It hurts me so much just to think that every fucking buck that I've ever made or ever will make by working is almost completely corporate blood money, made off of exploiting other unfortunate people. But I have to keep on doing it because I need food and shelter and have a dependant mother. That is not the life a child should be born into. So either I betray my beliefs, succumb to capitalism and get rich like every other person, or stick to my beliefs and live like rodents, surviving off of literal shit.
@@smososoms😥
Truly it is.
@@dominusantoniusMany people can hold this kind of thought. The children forced to be caregivers to their parents dying of aids in Africa, child soldiers, anyone in North Korea, trauma survivors, women in the Middle East, human trafficking victims, the list goes on and on. The majority of the world suffers greatly and would have every right to feel like scraping by in pure survival mode day after day isn’t worth it. You sound completely ridiculous and tremendously oversimplify this issue with your label of “only depressed, nihilistic, and unstable” people could think this way. My goodness how out of touch! Maybe if the majority of the world is miserable and depressed, that’s a signal things aren’t going well and we shouldn’t keep going the same direction.
My man DM X gon give it to ya - ''To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in that suffering''
What if the suffering is unnecessary? 🤔🤔🤔🤨🤨🤨🤨🤷🤷🤷😮💨😮💨😮💨
@@MADSCIENTISTGONESANE6166 What if all of it is unnecessary?🤔🤔🤔😉😉😉😥😥😥It just is. All that was, is and will be was determined before any of us were born.
Cringe
Maybe you should also discuss the consequences of overpopulation. Famine, putting junk in food for filler(which we are already doing), devaluing individuals (which we have been doing a long time but is getting much worse), and waiting for a famine/ decease ect to level humanity naturally, rather than controlling ourselves like an actual intelligent species.
If someone noticed, posters and shows up until 1960's have a positive image of the future, while 1970's and especially 1980's developed the concept of dystopia in the cinema. However, in the literature, the concept of dystopia was presented by Aldous Huxley and George Orwell since 1930's
Anti-natalism seems to only work if you’re also Nihilistic but that seems to almost contradict itself since Antinatalist’s would likely argue they are trying to prevent suffering. Meaning they are giving some kind of value to the idea of suffering (even if that value is negative)
Which goes against Nihilism
The only work around is if you don’t actually believe in Nihilism in which case why does happiness or satisfaction or experience not have value yet suffering does???
Well... I am an antinatalist and I am a Christian. 😅
and in the case of nihilism I could also say: "existence has no value, why continue bringing more beings into existence?"
@@supertilin I’m not even going to get into the contradictory ideas of being both antinatalist and a Christian
And to comment about your nihilist take “existence has no value, why continue typing at your computer?” The answer is simple, you simply want to. Your wants and needs may not have value but just because you believe they are unimportant you still act upon them. In which case the same goes for having children
To believe not having children is morally right would be 1. Admitting you’re not actually nihilistic being you believe in morals 2. Saying having children is morally wrong which…again goes against Nihilism 3. If you really do believe in nihilism then having children or not is completely personal choice and the fact you personally don’t want kids doesn’t mean you’re actually an antinatalist
Also….if you’re Christian you also again can’t believe in Nihilism because it’s contradictory
@@supertilin How can a Christian be anti-natalist? The Christian God's first command in Genesis is to be fruitful and multiply - it's literally the universal given to every form of life.
@@supertilin Also your framing of existence is still giving a negative value, even if you claim it doesn't as you're arguing against something due to implicitly holding it to be bad. The nihilist sees existence as absurd, there's no reason to argue for anybody to do anything. Just let them do what they will
@@TheSuperXNova God does not condemn you for not having children.
And why doesn't he condemn you? It's complex to answer, but it must have some implication that if it doesn't exist, it doesn't need to exist.
I think this is where I hit a wall when it came to philosophy. Even after some really convincing points, I couldn't quite find myself fully agreeing with Benatarr, but I couldn't quite figure out why. I still kinda can't, but after some thinking, this is the best I could come up with-
I disagree with Benatarr's base points. He says that our life is way worse than we think, and while he has a point there, I don't think life is just either sadness or lack of sadness. He said that Happiness and positivity is just a lack of negativity, for example Happiness is just a lack of Sadness, but this idea can be flipped on its head and still be true. Sadness is a lack of Happiness. In a basic sense, people are sad because they're not happy, and happy because they're not sad. For Benatarr, Negativity is a negative number, and Happiness is Zero. I think that Happiness is instead a positive number, Sadness being negative number, with 0 being a state of feeling neither. Life is a constant shift from these 2 and many other emotional states, and the positive *can* balance out the negative.
You cannot just emphasize the negative so much while ignoring the positive, as thats only 1 side of the coin. If sadness can be its own thing just by being "Not happiness", then so can Happiness.
Now, with that in mind, I think his asymmetric example is too extreme to draw conclusion for general cases of conception and birth of children. Sure, I agree on what he thinks on the extreme cases he presents, but I think morality is something that should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, there is not one-size-fits-all solution. As I said in the previous paragraph, Happiness can balance out Sadness. So in a general case of two responsible, somewhat prepared people bearing a child while living a life not fancy, but good enough to provide the basics of childcare. We can reasonably say that the child will live a life with both ups and downs, unlike the lives of all luxury, or complete misery, that his examples give. So here, we can say that the child may live a good, decent, or bad life, and the morality of the decision of conceiving them will depend on how much of good and bad they had in life. The best the parents can do is providing good conditions, and equipping their kid with everything they'll need to live a life of happiness as an adult, and depending on how well that was done, it will decide whether it was a good decision, or bad one, or just neutral.
TLDR- If negativity can be its own entity according to Benatarr, then we cannot just dismiss positivity as "lack of negativity", because flipping that logic will make positivity its own entity, and still make sense. With that, we can, instead of dismissing every good instance in life as "its a lack of bad stuff", we can instead use it as a way to balance out all the bad in life, meaning we can say that, depending on how well the parents equipped their child with whats needed to do so determines the morality of bringing that child into this world.
If I have just misunderstood Antinatalism, a correction is welcome, I just think Benatarr was wrong in dismissing the good parts of life so easily
Reproduction is not always a bad thing, and neither is it always a good thing. The issue with people is that people in the vast majority of civilizations have been encouraged to have a house full of children for no reason other than religion and society. It was more excusable when children had a lower chance of making it to adulthood, which is why animals like turtles and seahorses have so many offspring at a time.
Even then, I would say that back then, people shouldn't have needed to have so many children. Humans have more intelligence than animals do, so we have an advantage and the ability to make our lives easier. People will actively go against ideas that may change things for the better because of the desire for 'comfort' or delusion. In my opinion, the majority of women give birth to only one child at a time for a reason, and it is because we are not less intelligent, dumb creatures that operate off of instinct, and have the ability to, like I said before, make our lives way easier.
Extinction is definitely something to fear, but when you think about it, the encouraging people to have plenty of children will bring about extinction slowly. A higher population density, especially if that population is clumped in one area of the world due to territorial reasons, will put strain on the natural reasources, and there will likely be increased crime and polution because there are more people to manage and look out for. Imagine if everyone were having 5 to 10 children, and those children had 5 to 10 children? Eventually, resources would run out, and makes more room for things getting out of control. Now, in ths scenario, things could probably work if these people were fine with having to eat food grown in a lab or if the people are literally pushed to remain as green and clean as possible. Because we live in a world where most people couldn't care less about the environment, couldn't care about others, and many governments are selfish and chaotic, the encouragement of people to have a bunch of children is counterproductive. Overall, it doesn't have to be like this, but as I said before, we as humans have way more intelligence than animals, and it is up to us as a collective on how we live.
My son has a partner who has mental illness in her family. They will NEVER have children.
my family has little legs and red hair... 2 reasons why i won't have kids.
i remember seeing this story on AE network and this midget lady had got pregnant and the doctor i guess used whatever tech to let her know the baby will also suffer from the midget gene. She broke down and was sad because all her negative memories growing up.
The doctor comforted her and I was thinking, she don't deserve comforting. She absolutely knew she had a 50/50 shot of subjecting her offspring to this..don't act dumb. But people really don't care, if a kid makes them happy, they will try to justify it by any means. The midget daughter will go through life hating her genes too.
Interesting. When I was a young boy I realized that I did not want to have kids because I had more respect for a kid I didn't have yet than to bring them into a world that was SO screwed up and make them have to go through all the crap having to live on this planet. I was NOT going to do that and I never did.
People have no problem talking to new borns, even though they can't understand or reply, but what I've never heard them say is "congratulations for being born, you're going to have a beautiful life and you are so lucky to be here, this is a wonderful place." Kinda wild when you think about it. They usually just refer to how the presence of the baby makes them feel emotionally i.e "you're so cute!"
Saying "welcome to the world" is pretty common. I said it to all 3 of my kids.
@@Matt-on4ofunless you're a millionaire, u kinda left out the important parts😂 "oh I hope u enjoy your shortlived welcome cuz u probably gotta fend for yourself after approximately 2 decades, and undergo a mentally and physically exhausting toil to the grave from that point on".😂😂😂
This really seems like projection. I think most parents have kids with love in their hearts and hopes that they'll find their time on Earth to be fulfilling.
@destroyerofnuggets3644 but they can offer no guarantees so a more accurate statement would be most parents gamble with other people's lives, knowing full well that their hope and good intentions bear no effect on whether their children will die from cancer, or if they'll be molested by a coach etc. If either of those things happen then the parents are responsible, as people are aware that this environment contains seriously horrific things in it, but then force kids to be here anyway, whilst knowing they can be guaranteed nothing. Parents with sick children bear 100% of the responsibility for that occuring. It's part of the risk they knowingly took and unfortunately it didn't work out. We ignore a lot of normal societal ethical standards and responsibilities when it comes to parents.
@Hatunrumioc if a child dies of cancer it's the fault of nature and if a child gets s.a. it's the fault of the perpetrator. It's worthless and morally dubious to assign guilt to parties that aren't actually responsible for the externality. Regardless, it is a bet, so you make it the same as you make any other: by evaluating the odds to the best of your ability. Obsessing over a potentially negative outcome is just as pathological as assuming there's no risk at all.
It seems to me the asymmetry experience is the result of a modern individualist philosophy which says that you can do whatever you want as long as you don't harm someone. It's not hard at all to imagine a collectivist culture where people would say it's bad not to have a child who'd live a blessed life. The asymmetry stems from our view of avoiding badness is mandatory while pursuing good as optional.
Even in this case, there are arguments regarding the character of positive experiences in comparison to negative ones that hint at the possibility that pleasure is merely a less empty boredom with boredom being the mere lack of pain or accute distractions. If you are refering to a blessed life as in a life full of good deeds, this is sadly not something one can predict very well, regardless of the definition of such virtues that one chooses.
Everything about bringing another human into existence is like a roulette. You have no clue whether your child will be happy or miserable, and you're gambling with life itself. Let's say he is healthy, well educated, happy and has a good life, well, great, then you rolled the best dices, but if he's miserable, sick, depressed, alone, then that's how it is, you can't roll it back and the child is now stuck here in that state. It seems to me that the best way to avoid this is to just not take the gamble. And you might say something like "you influence your child's life and you can try your best to make him happy", but I don't know if a nuke will hit my home tomorrow. I don't know if he will be hit by a car, or if I will, or if I will get cancer or if he will. We're more or less powerless in the face of fate, so it's not a good gamble at all.
@@spicy7302 If a nuke hits your home and evaporates everyone you've kinda just accomplished the same thing as never having them at all, tbh. If something's a roll of the dice, the natural follow-up question is, "what are the odds?" If you only fail your roll on 1's then it's a pretty good bet. I agree that people should consider whether or not they can guarantee their kid a good life when they choose whether to have children or how many children they should have, but the world is largely a good place and the odds of them living a fulfilled life are pretty high so long as you don't have a debilitating, heritable condition and can reasonably provide food and shelter.
@@destroyerofnuggets3644 All you're telling me (no offence) is the same idea. It's a gamble, you don't *actually* know if it will have a good life, and you're already adding conditions like "unless you have a debilitating illness or are in poverty". You don't know whether your child will get cancer in their lifetime, or whether they will suffer mental illness, and in today's modern world, shelter and food isn't sufficient to live an actual fulfilling life. Plus, I think you know most people that have 10s of children are actually those that don't meet the conditions you put up.
@spicy7302 I wouldn't recommend people have dozens of kids either. Usually when your philosophy drives you to pathological conclusions there's something amiss. As with most bets, you use what information you have to evaluate the odds. If I have a stable job, a loving wife, and have a natural inclination to take care of kids, then it's more likely than not that any child I do have will have a good life. Rare events like cancer have a weight proportionate to their infrequency because I wouldn't deny 1,000 joyous lives to prevent a single life of suffering. You can debate the odds, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with making the bet.
Can’t speak for anyone else, but I love my life and am happy to have been born
As an antinatalist I can confirm that wanting to live your life makes you the spawn of satan and you should join me in my cozy little pit of despair /j
did you watched the video?
@@MostafaElSakari Hey, that's great. Good for you. I wish even 20% of our species would have the same experience. Hell, I REALLY wish that all of us would.
I'm glad someone gave us the opportunity to decide for ourselves whether or not we love life. Can you imagine someone denying you that?
@@davagevorriose8046I can imagine, and I would not have been denied anything if I never existed in the first place. I think the concept of non existence itself is a bad thing for people who love life and hence all these arguments
The inability of the comments to differentiate between preventing consciousness from being created and ending an existing consciousness is *chefs kiss*
@@travisbplank Well, it's not as easy a question as it might seem. It's easy to distinguish the difference linguistically, but to understand the fundamental difference is another story. Unless you first establish a solid philosophical framework to answer what it means to exist, I don't think you can even start discussing the fundamental difference between ending something that exists and not allowing something to exist.
@@merxj Yes. Most people have not established a philosophical framework for what it means to exist. The issue arises when they feel compelled to weigh in on a subject for which they have no understanding.
Someone on Reddit the other day, pointed out that preventing other people from getting on the train is not the same thing as jumping off.
Someone on Reddit the other day, pointed out that preventing others from getting on the train is not the same as jumping off
Unrelated to the topic, but I love how you do your subtitles, it just keeps me locked in all throughout by also making my eyes busy
Never did I complain or suffer in nonexistence, never were the tales of despair and unmitigated evils laid before before my eyes when I in nonbeing. Never did I feel imprisoned and conditioned on a succession of impositions, some even "pleasant" ones which kept me prisoner me in this fate.
Then one enlightened figure plucked me from my quietude to throw me to the dogs and see how I fared
@@hismajesty6272 that was a very intelligent question 👍
Maybe we actually came from hell to clear our debt on earth !
Another interesting perspective
@zinasherif7791 Or maybe... just maybe life is hard and it's not about suffering but just about the conditions necessary to life.
@@zinasherif7791 the way I see it, life starts the contracted debt and you live each day paying it off, but since the fares are so high there isn’t anything to cover the costs
@@hismajesty6272 nonexistence is not literally a state of being (which one experiences), so to refer to a potential suffering nonexistent subject is a fools errand which misses the mark by an absurd degree.
Yes, you exist. Quit whining about it and start making it better. If you really don't want to, you won't exist forever. God will make sure of it. No one is going to put your consciousness in a computer forever.
I pondered this specifically within the context of Christianity or Islam: if someone genuinely believes that most people will go to hell for all eternity, than isn't the ethical choice to not intentionally have children, risking that your children will end up on hell?
A lot would change depending on your view of hell and if postmortem salvation is possible.
But only the people who would deserve eternal hell would care, and they wouldn't believe in it anyways. And same vice versa. The people deserving of eternal heaven are the same who believe in it. And they would raise their children accordingly.
Or, alternatively, why preach the gospel? If people can’t go to hell if they’ve never heard of god, but if they *have* heard of god but can’t believe in him they do risk going to hell, isn’t the best thing to do to actively try to forget Christianity/Islam?
That way we can all just be judged on our merits when we die rather than having our ability to form a belief in something playing any part in our fate.
As Christians we are called to have children and teach them up in the way they should go we are called to multiply and spread about the earth.
If you are a Christian it’s best not to have a family so you can spread the gospel without being hindered but if you cannot withstand from lust which most people cannot Christian and pagan, you are to get married. It’s lust the cause children to be in this world and it will not cease, thats why children will happen regardless.
Abortion is a great evil sin it is child sacrifice that the Jews in the Bible have fell for time and time again and where punishment for it by God for worshipping Baal (religion that sacrifices children)
Hope this helps you understand
@@ecta9604 the possibility of postmortem salvation and the eschatological view of postmillennialism answer your question. Granted, it is just one possible view, but the well read Christian does have answers to these problems.
As someone who should've been aborted, but as my birthgiver was quite adament to have me, if you are on the fence about having a kid, just don't, if you aren't sure that you can give your kid a great life, then don't have the kid, it is the kinder thing to do
I honestly don't see how this is complicated. The desire to have children is deeply ingrained in us. Yet, at the same time, we fear great suffering and death-especially the kind that comes unexpectedly and in brutal, painful ways. Tragic events like murder, being trapped in a disaster, or suffering a slow, agonising death are nightmares we hope to avoid, but they remain a reality of life. When we choose to have children, we are not just granting life; we are guaranteeing their death, and exposing them to the potential for immense suffering.
If someone contemplates having a child, and I point out the possibility of that child developing cancer at age four, being sexually assaulted at thirteen, getting hit by a car and dying slowly at twenty-three, or struggling with severe PTSD and suicidal tendencies, they cannot later feign ignorance or innocence if one of these things happens. They knew the risks. While they may not be driving the car that causes the accident or triggering the disease, they brought a new life into a world where these dangers are well-known and ever-present.
And what are the reasons people typically have children? Often, it boils down to one thing-they simply feel like it. It’s a choice driven by personal desire, rather than any guaranteed benefit for the child or the greater good.
Take the tragic example of Francis Ngannou, the former UFC fighter who recently lost his young son. His grief and brokenness were palpable as he questioned why such a thing had to happen. But why the shock? Was he unaware of the risks life poses on this planet? Of course he knew. We all do. But we still choose to roll the dice and act surprised when tragedy strikes.
The truth is this: the only way to truly protect a child from suffering, pain, and death is to never bring them into existence in the first place. To me it seems noble to sacrifice your desire for family in order to protect that very family.
Yes. This is why, as a very young heroin addict, I had an abortion at about 2 weeks and don't feel any remorse or regret. That was over 20 years ago and i feel like the world was done a positive service.
We cannot protect what does not exist. I really think Benatar has thoroughly convoluted the discussion with the asymmetry argument.
@@AntiGamer-de8vp If you want to be that literal then maybe a better word is prevent. The only way to truly prevent harm towards someone is to not make them in the first place. It's quite simple tbh, if you make a human you guarantee harm and death, with the possibility of serious harm as well. If you don't make a human these are all eliminated.
To have a child is selfish, because it isn't as if children are being tortured in a spirit realm before they're born, and in order to save them humans need to reproduce to bring them to Earth. Before a child is born they do not exist, therefore they cannot be harmed or deprived of anything. This is true peace, but parents bring them here anyway. Yes, the idea of our species dying out is horrible and bleak. But this is again because we are hardwired to want to keep this all going. We're kind of addicted to this life game. If there were no cost then it would be fine, but we see the cost every day when we turn on the news.
@@sonsofbiscuits1 Prevent is way better! Cheers! I hope you'll forgive the former pedantry. I just think Benatar's asymmetry language tends to lead to such unwieldy statements like this from his book:
>> We can regret, for the sake of an indeterminate but existent person that a benefit was not bestowed on him or her, but we can't regret, for the sake of somebody who never exists and thus cannot thereby be deprived, that this never existent person never experiences. -- Better Never to Have Been, p. 47
Ugh!
I also came across an antinatalist video where the creator said he's the most responsible parent possible, because he refuses to ever have children. To me that's like someone saying they're the most responsible worker, because they refuse to ever get a job. That's just downright obnoxious.
I don't mind the basic intent though. For example, if someone just tweaked that and said they're far more ethical because their choices prevent children from ever suffering, I'd be totally cool with that.
@@sonsofbiscuits1 My pet peeve is mostly with Benatar rather than antinatalism. I really don't think he's good for the movement. I might just be a simpleton but much of his logic is either convoluted or genuinely absurd and incomprehensible. At least I'm sure some small part of it is absurd. For example, if I take his far less abstract book, The Second Sexism, he has passages like this:
>> Our current practices are so entrenched that people rarely see how odd they are. Men are expected to urinate in the presence of other men, but women are not similarly expected to urinate in the presence of other women. -- The Second Sexism
I don't have to be a logician to know for sure that this is quite absurd to view the differences in men and women's bathrooms as a form of sexism.
I at least sympathize with the general sentiment of antinatalism and its way of evaluating ethics. For example, when you made the tweak from protecting the nonexistent to preventing harm to people, that's so much more comprehensible.
"Man is a compound of needs which are hard to satisfy; that their satisfaction achieves nothing but a painless condition in which he is only given over to boredom... (which) is nothing other than the sensation of the emptiness of existence... We take no pleasure in existence except when striving after something, in which case distance and difficulties make our goal look as if it would satisfy us - an illusion which fades when we reach it... Whenever we are not involved in one or other of these things but directed back to existence itself we are overtaken by its worthlessness and vanity."
- Arthur Schopenhauer
Speak for yourself Schopes. Existence is fascinating and not merely a game of "gimme that."
Yes, for small minded, boring people life is only as good as the mall that they live near, but that's hardly representative of the human race.
What happened to the Will to understand?
Nihilism is stupid.
very true...when I finally got my dream car, i was excited for years saving up and working like a dog but after having the dream car for about a month, my mind went back to depression... or when a Hot Woman gives me a chance and i'm over the moon but after a few dates, she turns to just another ugly woman in my mind and back to depression.
50 yrs old. No children 😑
How is life
Duh. You're male
@@scaraboo3624 fantastic. I know that you must have benefited a lot from this disposition.
@@abdulazizhawsah9884 life is life, with kids or without them. At least she didn't impose illness, suffering and dying on her children.
This is about to be me in 33 years. Does it get lonely?
I have a large family,it has been bittersweet,I love my children,grandchildren and great grandchildren,but the world is a worse place than it used to be so I urge young people to not have children. I look forward to the day I can leave this unpleasant world,its unpleasant due to too many people.
The one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering that befalls children is not to bring them into this world of diseases, crimes, wars, accidents, natural disasters, old age, death, and all the unknown evils the future holds. ☮
At the same time, by not coming into existence, they are not being deprived of any of the "goods" this world has to offer, because to be deprived, one must exist first. You cannot deprive something that doesn't exist. ✨
And also the one and only way to prevent all of the antonyms of the words you mentioned, most of the arguments for antinatilism can just be switched around with their wording and they're all of a sudden natalist
If there is no child, then no one is spared. You're basically arguing to destroy all life so that nothing unpleasant can ever happen
@ffffffffffffffff5840 Exactly it's cowardly
@@luigigaming2717 A better stance to take is that the level of suffering in the world isn't worth it, regardless of if there's more pleasure or not.
If everyone in the world had no suffering, beyond very minor things, except one good person who lived in misery, then it'd be better off for life to disappear it meant saving him and stopping more rarities like him from popping up.
It's a subjective stance, since morality is subjective, but any natalist that has considered this moral issue is completely evil in my eyes.
Having a kid, after all, is about "Me me me. I want. I want. I want." People have kids because they want them due to their primitive instincts. Their selfish morality comes in afterwards to justify it to make themselves feel better.
@@MythicMk.V so you're literally saying ALL life should dissapear because one good person is miserable, this is so utterly beyond ridiculous if you can't see the problem with it then it isn't worth arguing.
My argument against AN is that human progress has made the vast majority of peoples lives better. Even in 3rd world countries are preferable to having to hunt in the ice age with massive deadly animals and disease everywhere. Taking a look at this, then saying let's stop all progress and future endeavors because it sucks right now is incredibly short sighted and lazy.
Considering that the average first world person will produce ~500-800 tons of carbon (depending on your sources) in its life time, i got a feeling that the planet would agree with Benatar.
That's kinda ironic because they aren't producing CO2 are they? They're releasing trapped CO2 that was once part of the biosphere, but was then unfortunately buried through geological processes and made unavailable to life. All life on earth is built on a backbone of carbon, hence carbon based life forms. Make it bio-unavailable as it has been becoming and the biosphere decreases towards extinction. Release it and it'll reintegrate back into earths biology and the total mass of biological organisms will increase massively over the next several million years. The carbon that was trapped which we are releasing is a huge boost to life on earth in the long run. It may even end the ice age cycles and the massive die offs that accompany them. It may not be a great climate for humans but you don't see many biologists freaking out about the added atmospheric carbon.
For anyone interested in diving into reading material for this “Conspiracies Against the Human Race” is an excellent read.
I just don't want kids :)
But having a really intellectual deep dive is fascinating!
This entire philosophy hinges on the statement that experiencing suffering is bad. And while that may be true for gratuitous suffering, meaningful suffering is something to be treasured.
There is no meaningful suffering. You will not learn anything from suffering. You will not gain anything from suffering. You're just the usual NPC coping.
@@francisdec1615 Maybe
What kind of suffering is meaningful? and why should you be the one to decide for unborn children whether their suffering is 'meaningful'?
@@bramsteenhoek2674the gratitude for having experienced someone wonderful in one’s life is a special feeling not possible without that person ever having existed/that person not being able to depart from existence
@@ayylmao2710 This is subjective and not applicable to everyone's life. Not everyone will think it is worth for them or for others to live and so we shouldn't decide for anyone else whether their life is worth living.
Having kids in a soul-sucking world..nah!
Exactly! Sometimes I wonder why these topics are even discussed.
We even have micro-plastics in our food and water now... like damn, we really can't anything in this world.
Yep, I'm withcha.👍😁
I just found your brilliant channel through Lawrence Anton, and I have subscribed. I am a diehard, adamant antinatalist and I do believe creating a new person is the more immoral, unspeakably cruel, unethical SIN that can ever be committed. Every person born suffers and dies. This is completely unacceptable to me, and even though I have had some good times (even though they ended), I wish with all my heart I had never been born.
This channel is very interesting. I now read books inspired by this channel.
Man I've been an antinatalist for quite a while following the human self-extinction movement. I didn't know about authors and it was a really motivating analysis 😅
I don't know if this is a philosophical issue, but I always get confused when asking people why they want or have children. I get 3 kinds of answers mostly: it's what you're supposed to do (no reflection at all on the matter), I want to further my genes (why, are your genes special?), I need someone to take care of me in my last years (apparently they're free labor).
All these motivations seem absolutely self-serving. And when I try bringing up antinatalism, people get super defensive and confused. One time I was speaking with a group where a guy said how he was frustrated that he and his wife had not been able to conceive. I suggested adoption and he said but I want it to be mine! I said but why? and there it ended, the guy didn't give me an answer.
It seems to be so taboo to suggest to not reproduce.
Usually, people don't think about it, it's the reptilian brain' s need to reproduce.
My life is worse than I think? According to who and why does their opinion matter more than mine?
If I’m not thinking about the bad parts of my life they must not be that bad since I’m not thinking about them?
I thought the same thing 😂 Since Happiness is a state of mind, I am exactly as happy as I think I am. Per definition.
Funny enough, I was actually antinatalist when I was a Christian. I thought it was absolutely stupid to bring a child in this world, risking them going to hell when they didn’t ask to be here. Then you’re wasting time, raising a child that could’ve been better spent on spreading the gospel to people that are already here😂. In my mind, it was a greater good to not have children, and even to remain single like Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7. He literally said that it was better to remain single so that you could be fully devoted to God, and avoid the distractions that come with family.
The world we live in drives people to suicide. I'm certainly never bringing somebody else into it just because I selfishly want the experience of being a parent. The risk is too high for me, especially considering that even the best of lives will contain significant suffering.
edit: Would love to see a video on 'The Last Messiah' at some point. It is an essay by Peter Zapffe on how humans deal with existential dread and it has an antinatalist conclusion.
But the suffering is what makes life truly beautiful. Lack of it will only make us take our privileges for granted and without suffering there's no meaning of life. Think of it as the opposites are necessary for a balance that this universe needs, be it the vast universe itself or our little universe (our life).
@@darkside6610Well you dont suffer if you dont exist. I think that mindset is copium, not that its bad, but its copium
@@allanc_me763 Everything in this life is copium, read the book The Denial of Death by Ernst Becker and you will understand
@@allanc_me763 only people who suffers from an existential crisis says so, that if you dont exist you don't suffer. Well I'd rather exist to experience the bliss of this life as well as sufferings. Nietzsche said, if the pain doesn't kill me, it will only make me stronger. So live for power and grace despite all the sufferings that this world has to offer. And by power I don't mean control over people like dictators.
@@darkside6610on point, usually the people avoiding suffering are the neurotic ones
I contemplate nonexistence quite often.
Contemplate on what you want your life to be from now on instead.
Well, we can certainly do with breeding LESS. As a species we have a massive over-population problem already.
Remember, your job at Walmart is actually fulfilling; you're just being selfish for not wanting to add 2 or 3 more smiling associates to the Walmart family.
This is a fantastic analogy.
Yes can't wait for my kid to learn responsibility by getting yelled at for minimum wage...its gonna be so sweet. Having a kid brought me joy, so now i can watch them struggle just like me.
Obviously parents usually don't consider it that deep. Its usually in the moment short term stuff like can we afford a baby right now, do we need a bigger place, and other short term stuff. Rarely is it about the child's future. Many people don't have a pot to piss in and popping out kids.
This makes so little sense, so you are calling out other for not condemning it so „deep“ yet you don’t consider anything at all deep. You yourself made such a shallow remark that it’s just total hypocrisy of the greatest magnitude
That makes 0 sense
Thanks for saying the same thing two times in a row @Ivan.
When I was about 10 a same age friend told me that he would've rather not been born. I thought he was off his rocker.
I have spoken to many people who started being su!cidal at the tender age of 7. Although, at that age, I questioned many things such as religion, and why I had to go to school, I was overall a happy kid that played a lot. I never knew people would consider leaving this world at such a young age, until i got older and created this page.
@@antinatalistwitch111 Sometimes, and in some people, the urge to fade away can be extremely powerful. It's not a weakness of character or a lack of intelligence. It's not a lack of empathy or a moral failing. It's simply a personality trait. Some people would rather opt out painlessly. Once we recognize this we can better address the "problem."
Is life better without any suffering ? What is suffering , is stubbing your toe the same as having your family taken from you , is suffering an opportunity to learn . Do you suffer having children ?
Is suffering necessary for a meaningful life ? Does overcoming suffering give meaning to life ? Is a meaningful life dependent on learning to overcome suffering ?
I'm an author, and I can say that without suffering, nothing is interesting, and even worse that nothing being interesting, nothing is appreciated and no one can prove their love
@@georgekatkus5162 Here's a question that just occurred to me , Does suffering turn into meaning when you're grateful for it happening ?
@georgekatkus5162 say that to people actually suffering, what a shitty opinion.
@@georgekatkus5162 , I can assure you that suffering is not a necessary condition to happiness.
Life, or should I just say... physics doesn't care if you receive the right amount of suffering to help you learn your lesson. You could experience any amount whether fair/useful or not... you could easily experience an absurd amount of it which outweighs any pleasure dramatically. As was already mentioned in the video, suffering does outweigh pleasure. Take physical pain for example. It's easy to stimulate the body to induce extreme pain, but a message or orgasm doesn't even come remotely close to the intensity of pain in the body. It might as well be a tickle compared to a sledgehammer to the face. But also, life could literally just be pain... and then you die. Get a horrid condition from birth(or while in the womb) and there can only be suffering... Then there is something that convinces me completely that life is a mistake. And that is... unimaginable pain. When you're immersed in that suffering, it is beyond words... It's terrifying to think that pain goes far beyond your tolerance for it. It just keeps going, and when you think it couldn't possibly get worse it does. What's even more unsettling is that we don't really know how bad the pain can theoretically get, what would be the limit? I sure as hell don't want to find out or experience anything remotely close to it.
I’m wondering how this works with:
A lack of free will (determinism).
Einstein’s Block Universe - a universe where (from a certain perspective, it seems) all lives have always existed.
A Quantum Universe (the many worlds interpretation) - a universe among countless universes with differing outcomes encompassing all logical possibilities.
Kantian Deontology - wherein this is a universal rule throughout the Cosmos.
Utilitarianism - wherein this is a universal rule throughout the Cosmos.
Aristotle’s Virtue Ethics - wherein it seems without sentient creatures, virtue is no longer a thing.
The Evidential Problem of Evil - wherein there seems to be overwhelming gratuitous pain and suffering. In this case, better not to have a Universe at all?
So I was today years old when I discovered that I’m an antinatalist!
The flaw in the asymmetry principle is that he assigns a small value to pleasure and a value of infinity to suffering. That means a small amount of suffering will always outweigh a large amount of pleasure.
A good life always includes some degree of suffering. The ratio of good vs bad is important, but you can't do that when one of the variables is infinity.
Creating other people is imposing existence on them. It is unquestionably selfish and arrogant.
@@mdgprogrammerbut why would I even morally consider them until they exist in the first place? It seems completely irrational to consider the moral rights of a potential being.
@@OlPalJoe So it makes sense to introduce yourself to someone by committing immense harm to them?
@OlPalJoe furthermore, why make any moral appraisals of any action until you see the damage dealt?
@@mdgprogrammer Existence proceeds damage and harm. Until the thing comes about it is nothing and is assigned no moral worth.
I dont see any purpose to bring child in this world. Why to repeat the same life n death n misery?
It's funny.
Misery loves company
Most humans In all history never even seen 20 yrs old 99% of humans suffered immensely
43, childfree, and surgically sterilized. Doing my part
You are wiser than most.
I'm 42 and I hope to have 10.
Good. No one needs more of you.
@@albertoalmeida3424 10 houses, me too.
It’s like Biggie said ‘If you don’t know, now you know’. And even if the idea is introduced some people get it, others never will
I admire the rich people that can wrap their heads around it. Many people living ideal lives, usually don't understand how someone could not enjoy this planet. If working 9-5s and partying on the weekend is good enough for people, i don't. Society is just about making money and taking advantage of one another.
I been decided to NEVER have kids, and it has nothing to do with me being a lesbian.
It should. Kids deserve one mom and one dad. Lesbians can't give them that.
Unfortunately, many lesbians still have children.
@@thelemurofmadagascar9183She was saying the reason why she didn't opt to have children. Do you have problem with comprehension?
@@nandhakishor103 Can YOU not comprehend what I was saying? My point was that her other reason shouldn't matter. Simply being a lesbian alone is enough of a reason to not have kids.
@@thelemurofmadagascar9183 Yeah coz you want to bring unnecessary topics here. The reason which you gave is your reason. Although children need better privileges, it's not their rights. Poor, homeless people have kids because they are able to give birth and they think it's their rights because it is, but their children are not getting better conditions. Nobody can question this but when homosexual couples having children everyone loses their cool. Lesbians should have the right, but that doesn't mean they making children is a good thing.
Another interesting argument I’ve seen put forth for antinatalism argues purely off of the principle of consent as an intrinsic good. If one believes that making life-altering decisions without a person’s consent is immoral then bringing that person into life would be the penultimate decision behind killing them. The conclusion this leads to then is not only is bringing someone into the world immoral, but also having them live through childhood, as they are forced into being a moral agent that cannot consent themselves until they are adults, depriving them of consent for most of their lives. I still disagree with this argument, but I think it’s thought provoking on determining just how valuable consent is.
Interesting. With these kinds of arguments, though, we end up just debating our moral intuition, which is inherently flawed.
Counter point, how can someone who does not exist, consent or not consent? You'd have to wait until they exist first and then ask for their consent to exist. But of course by then its too late. Furthermore I could see this logic being applied to abortion to make an anti choice argument, that abortion is always a violation of consent. So I don't really find this argument compelling
Giving birth is not a life-altering decision. There is no life to be altered. Consent does not apply.
@@calebr7199 well (playing devil’s advocate here) to be fair, if this were true the phrase “I did not ask to be born” would be a nonsensical phrase, but it isn’t because it is true that they did not consent, and unless there is some third option between consent and non-consent it’s a pretty clear cut dichotomy. Also the consequence of this view would definitely be a pro choice one since it would actively be against bringing more life into the world ergo violating their consent to begin existing.
@@khaledyasser8293 After someone is being born. There IS a life that is altered.... and consent does not apply.
If we hadn't been born in the first place, we wouldn't have had to suffer
Nah, I still regret being alive, it seems like life doesn’t get any better. I was holding on in my teens in hope that life would get better in adulthood - that was a lie. Now I’m only alive because I don’t want to hell and I have a parent that needs my help.
Exactly, forgive them but don't forget the lies they told us and keep on doing so. Trust no man
Yeah I think life just doesn’t feel like it’s worth living but perhaps in meaningful suffering there is a value in life that we can’t directly feel or understand.
@@justinegerhazi6829 there's no value, imo
we all die, no point
even if to live mostly own desired successful life, not worth it
I am just most jealous of "those" "non-exist,unborn"
Shouldnt you take pity on your Parents and assist them in ending their suffering rather than perniciously attempting to prolong their suffering and assist them in clinging to it?
I dont agree with any kind of anti-natalist argument. But if you determine that your own life is the source of your suffering, then feel free to end it. Control your destiny, stop bemoaning it.
Are you willing to let go of the things that are making you hate life? If you say no, then you have no right to complain.
My grandma told me and my brother that we will look so much better with 3-4 kids. I was gonna say straight to her face: Girl Ik u ain’t talking cause u had 10 kids but were poor asf, ur poozay was destroyed, and yet, some of my uncles and aunts turned out to be stupid ass people. Why did my grandma have 10 kids bruh??? It was not necessary, the world was not ending bruh, my mom wasn’t even given a childhood and even worked as fucking waitress at 9 years old… I do sometimes cry for my mom and she wasn’t given a lot, and she wanted to become a lawyer… sadly, it didn’t come true……………….. she was forced to give up her dreams just because my grandma’s broke ass couldn’t provide NOTHING.
grandma won at life despite everything
It is more likely your grandfather 's fault that your grandmother had so many kids. Sex is more rewarding for the man than for the woman.