I was about to disagree (although by a VERY minor clause), but with the actual context of the video it's much more clear. Here's my short journey of changing my mind about all this: My initial reasoning is that raising awareness is always good feedback, even if it can be ultimately useless. For example, if a ton of players are saying something sucks with barely anything constructive... you are at least aware that something may be wrong in that category if you were already sort of unsure about it to begin with. In this regard, it CAN, but not always, be a good way to sway your own focus if you weren't confident in something (like a 50/50 choice, which happens frequently). However, feedback for the purpose of making direct changes to things you are already aware of: yea, it's worthless. The entire world can tell you it sucks, but if there isn't a single piece of constructive feedback in them you can't do anything but guess, which is often riskier. But then I'm reminded of the fact that the minority are often very loud and will scream about wanting things their way for their personal sake. As such, the only way to weed this out is by... having constructive feedback. So in the end, he is absolutely right. You can't please absolutely everyone, and you can only tell what matters by what people can actually explain and work from there.
@@pfnieks why would Emil himself lie about? It only serves to make him look bad. Are you implying that Emil Pagliarulo is some sort of chronic liar or something? That seems kind of mean spirited, considering all he's really done to you is make a few games with less-than-great narratives. :/
@@pfnieks you have gotta be the single worst gaslighter on earth lmfao, I've seen the video, I know exactly what he said. So are you now claiming that was some sort of deep state, body double, android replacement or something? What levels of tinfoil hat conspiracy theories have you delved to in order to square this circle?
Very helpful, been watching all of your videos and gaining valuable insight. We launched our first game last year and made lots of mistakes, your videos give me more confidence in trying again and doing better.
You got this! Each failure is one step closer to success. That just made me think of an idea. Have a “learned log” where you write down everything you can remember about what you learned that day. And maybe a separate learned log just for game dev stuff
I don't usually comment on videos, but I felt compelled to this time. I've recently started watching your videos, and they've given me incredible insights into the industry I'm pursuing. I just realized you're the mind behind Fallout-the franchise that made me fall in love with gaming. Knowing this, I can't help but smile, as I’m watching content from someone I truly admire. Thank you for showing me the beauty of virtual worlds.
This channel rules. My only change would be to give Mr. Cain a projector, with relevant slides. I don't work in the games industry, nor do I aspire to, but this stuff is fascinating. More process stuff like this, please!
Oh, no. Thank YOU, Tim! This is a master class, and it's awesome that you put it here for free, for everyone to watch and learn from. It's funny that that's how I started to lay things down rather recently. I'll write what I want (so yes, my goal), then how I think I could achieve that with a mechanics overview, and then detail things further. It's great because I can go back and check both of those things. If the mechanics I'm working on actually work toward realizing that goal, and also if I really (or if I _still)_ want to achieve that, if it's the right thing for this game and so on. (but I'm not working on anything digital, so that makes things less complicated.)
You are awesome for uploading all of your stories and sharing your experience with us. I always thought you had to be an extremely talented person from the start to make something great. It was stressful at times for you and your team, but knowing that it’s still possible to be successful by learning as you go is encouraging. Honestly it’s something I needed to hear. Thank you Timothy.
I love how you always speak highly of people you work with or avoid naming those who didn't do too well. Also, being a game designer myself this video made so much sense. Thanks for sharing your wisdom!
Decided to put this on while I went over the very, very early beginnings of a document for a tabletop campaign. It’s “good noise,” as you might expect, but the advice about Setting -> Story -> System and explicit, repeated goals to be able to refer to (in your immediate view!) were some real food for thought.
A lot of this is stuff I already do, but writing the goals of mechanics down honestly is such a good idea. I never really thought to do that, since I'm usually a one-person design team, but I should probably start doing that to futureproof my work!
The portion where you talk about high level goal setting in mechanics design draw ups is so important and very insightful. The design approach to melee and ranged and how it compartmentalized the design discussions based on how they served the high level goal that you set is amazing. I think no matter what industry in or what you're working on with any team, or even working with a client: aligning goals and expectations is #1. I'm definitely stealing this.😊
I love that you share everything so openly about your creative virtues and past experiences with this youtube channel, it's very inspiring to people like me who are trying to get their foot in the door for the gaming industry. I love to see consistent uploads, keep it going Tim!
This is such a great video. Going back and watching all your videos now while working on a TTRPG design. Thank you doing these. The gamng world really needs them.
Tim! I've been loving your videos and the frequency with which you've been uploading them. As an aspiring game developer, your inside knowledge is invaluable. Thank you!
Your videos have been inspiring me to write down a design document for a game idea that's been floating in my head for a while. I had told a friend about it and he wanted to help with the writing and design part. I'm glad you made this video.
It's kind of funny when I watch videos like this while writing down rough templates for how to structure game development at the same time. These insights are great for understanding how to do game design better on all fronts.
15:30 IMO, Some fans do actually do those thigs: for designers - the visual mods (armor replacers, custom shaders for lighting/colour correction), for programmers - script extension and fan patches that fix bugs. Not to mention mods which change the gameplay or add features/quests/maps, which are the proactive form of what you're talking about. Thanks for video essays these, your industry knowledge is extremely valueable and appreciated!
Hey Tim. So glad you started this channel. Just wanted to say, I very much enjoyed your chat with Boyarsky and hope you can have him on the channel again. Bloodlines is such a unique product; it would be a shame if it wasn't discussed in more detail. Also love the Fallout stuff. Keep up the good work!
Extremely helpful to hear from someone who has done the work and can elaborate on the processes. If you intend to do another FAQ soon, I've got a ton of questions which ill list here below... As there are many facets to game development, I'd like to know your thoughts on each particular development process and how you balance what gets worked on now and what gets set aside for later. You described an extremely nice outline for overall design objectives (setting, story, system), and I'm wondering at a high level how you prioritize and coordinate each of those particular objectives between a team of people, and in the case of a solo developer, how time should be managed amongst the game's design, code, writing, art, and sound. Can you give an overview of the entire development process from A to Z? This could be the traditional process, or a more indie-like process, perhaps an overview of the different kinds of game development processes and what kind of expectations one should have, both as a player and a developer. How are creative differences settled? how do you find a common vision amongst a team of developers? Who sits in the pilot's seat as far as overall vision and quality assessment in terms of IP? You talked about this briefly, as far as at the very least setting a goal, but I'm curious as to what sort of conversations are had during development and who ultimately makes the decisions? Can you explain the pros and cons of single player game development vs multiplayer game development? Perhaps at a high level, what objectives the developer should optimize for given each in regards to player retention, and overall enjoyable gameplay? For individuals who are looking to work on a project, what paths would you recommend to them? Perhaps at different skill levels as well, for example, someone who's just begun learning a particular skill, vs someone who's a hobbiest, vs someone who is an expert at their craft. When should a developer optimize between working hard on a particular objective vs taking shortcuts? When is it necessary to trim fat off of an idea or concept? Are there any more tips/tricks you consistently use during the development process? ... I'm sure there's many more questions I could come up with that I'd find useful personally, but you're only one person and this channel is only going to get more and more popular, so I'm happy with whatever additional insight you end up posting in the future. Thank you for taking the time to read comments while it's still manageable 👍
After watching your design (document) videos I tried it myself, with goals at the top ;) I'm overflowing with system design ideas but didn't want to be a seagull! I'm a game programmer and will present one to our designers after some good feedback I got. I thought through the whole process including QA and how it effects other systems we already have. Very happy, thank you very much for teaching that!
The melee vs ranged design distinction is such a good example for why you need to drill down on the intent behind each system's design. Melee dependency on dicerolls FEELS like jank in a 3D space and isn't intuitive at all, even if it's explained within the rules of the game (see Morrowind). Meanwhile, while perfect accuracy is usually the standard with ranged weapons in videogames, it isn't nearly as simple in real life and it's much more believable - and easy to balance - ballistic weapons that have some under-the-hood variability.
Im so happy I found this channel. Im making a procedural “MMO” in UE5. The DM is the GPT API. Anyhow, I have the game dev skills to make what I envision but usually get lost in the sauce when it comes to organizing my effort. Thank you Tim!
Thanks for taking the time to make a video on something like this. That kind of information might seem like second nature to you, but is definitely invaluable to someone who is just starting out!
This has been enlightening, I'm going to try to take everything you said into consideration. I think you were the perfect person to learn to write design docs from, since the way you think and articulate is much more in line with how I think and structure my ideas. Mechanics being inspired by the setting makes a lot of sense.
I so understand you when you are saying about the worthless feedback ever: “I don’t like it, redo it”. Hate to deal with managers, product owners who can’t be more specific with feedbacks
Love your videos! I hope to see more videos from you! I've always loved the games that you have worked on and it's amazing to see you on TH-cam here talkin to us! Love from Texas
Thanks for this. One small suggestion, I think the title can mention "Game Design Docs", or even RPGs for that matter, otherwise it may attract people who's thinking of writing design docs in other contexts, and click the dislike button having not found what they were looking for.
Thank you so much for sharing this insight! These are the kinds of things I'd love to see more of. If there were more references centralized for people to refer to when starting out I think more fan projects and indie projects could really shine.
Extremely informative. I always love your videos that explain how you did/do things and what the process looks like. Thank you for the SSS rule, as well. I'll make sure to keep that into consideration with my projects, going forward. 😁👍
16:30 I think you could even go so far as to say that unconstructive feedback is worse than worthless, it can be an active detriment to a good team. Saying "that's bad" can make people less inclined to share their ideas in the future. Even when you're sure that the idea isn't going to fit your project, it's a lot better if you can explain why. That person could have other ideas that are perfect for your project but they just don't understand it in the same way you do and being overly critical might just scare them away.
LOVE THIS more of these useful advice style videos probably wouldnt be as popular view wise, but it means a lot to those following behind you. thanks fam ♥
Thank you for making this! :) I'm in the middle of making documents, so I'm excited to watch. :) Thanks again! That is so different from my design document template I was using, and makes a tonne more sense to me. :)
My favorite part of Troika games was the impact I could make as a player. Arcanum was one of my favorite games of all time and there was so much choice. Yes, I played a powerful gun mage and was never allowed near the train lol
Im a youngin, so this is said without a lot of context or investment into the beef that seems to be everywhere within the 90's-00's game dev community. But id love a document compiled in colab with every single vet to cover everything about the game design of the classic games. It would require a lot of beef to be put aside but itd serve as a way to continue the work of all the industry vets, from troika to black isle. I dont want the quality of the games you and your fellow vet devs to be lost forever, but it seems that is the fate that is in store for the great games you guys made and their concepts and universes if it doesnt get preserved properly. That isnt to say it would be a good idea to try and copy you guys 1:1 but having a document that covers every game and universe you bros left your mark on would help game devs for years to come.
15:12 _"No one ever walks up to a programmer and says 'yeah, I was playing the game and it was pretty obvious you're using quicksort; you really should be using insertion sort.'"_ It's funny because this is an observation I made about Pillars of Eternity, and I even contempleted filing a bug report. It seems to me that adding and removing items to the stash (when it is set to be sorted) is handled like this: _1. Item is added/removed_ _2. Stash is sorted (probably using std::sort, which is a bad choice in this scenario*)_ This leads to massive performance issues (also throttled because it's a necessarily single-threaded operation) when the stash gets to a certain size. For my now decade old MacBook adding/removing stuff started chugging real good when the stash was about a couple dozen pages, at which point I knew it was time to visit a shop. What _should_ have been done was: _1. Item is directly inserted/removed_ The unsorted stash was instant use no matter how many items were in it, which is why I figure it was due to unnecessary sorting. My theory is that the devs and testers simply never ran into this issue, because they didn't test it on such old machinery (and why would they), so the stash code was never looked at very closely. My understanding is that the stash was also a late addition to the game, so it was probably done quite quickly with not much test time. *std::sort is a type of introsort which _should_ recognise that it's sorting an already sorted array and avoid doing something silly like using the default quicksort all the way, but depending on the implementation it may well spend quite a few iterations before it recognises this. This delay depends on the size of the array, which further amplifies the effect. Either way it's a waste of cycles.
"If you give feedback that isn't constructive, your feedback is worthless." I love that! I'll "steal" that from you, and I also mean the way you said teh sentence :D! EDIT: It takes time to think about constructive feedback. Don't hold meetings and expect everyone to be able to provide spontaneous feedback. (Man I fucking hate that, because I don't roll that way).
This is an extremely good knowledge to also write books, in my opinion. Before starting the story, it would be very helpful to come up with a setting first, and write everything else surrounding that "world" you created.
I have a team, i have an idea, but i lack the structure to get a good design document written. I know i need one to direct my team but thank you so much for making this video.
It would be cool to see you do a full playthrough of Fallout 1 or Arcanum with your commentary like how Dario Casali recently did a playthrough of The Plutonia Experiment and talked about working on it and how the game was. That would be entertaining to see I think. Anyways, amazing video.
16:08 Generally I agree with that, but I wouldn't necessarily call it worthless. People don't always know why they don't like something, that doesn't mean that they're not telling the truth and that more people don't think the same. If the majority of players say that they don't like a certain mechanic without explaining why then you should probably try to fix it based on your assumptions of what could be wrong with it.
Hey Tim, I've recently come across your channel and I'm really enjoying catching up on all of the wisdom you've shared here! You mention in some of your videos about a Setting Document, could you describe what the difference is between a Game Design Document?
Your work and video series are brillant and have greatly inspired me, thank you. A question: how does one utilize puzzles/problem solving/platforming to break up access to narrative content, and how do you go about designing such a puzzle? Combat design is something i am beginning to really understand, but creating downtime activity that rewards play interactivity with progression (rather than handing them the keys to the meat of the content straight away) is something that is eluding me
I will think of this order when designing. I guess you can also base game on interesting mechanisms found through prototyping, and justify the settings for the mechanisms? I am thinking especially games centered around new video gaming systems, like the wii with wii sports for example. Or like how phone games when they were new explored touch, gyro, gps, etc. Or a specific type of challenge/education. Like Ring Fit Adventure which is rather shallow in setting and story but enough to make you motivated to exercise, or some pure/semi-educational like a math game or a simulation game. Here the purpose is more important than the setting. How well it models or correctly introduces information. Then again maybe it is consistent, if we just consider purpose first: 0. Purpose - (exploring a setting is sort of intrinsic motivation, otherwise it can be like "explore mechanical possibilities of x" or "simulate x" or "train player for challenge x") 1. Setting / Aesthetics 2. Story / Progression / dynamics 3. Systems / Mechanisms
@@Softsilhouette8971 Its not underrated. Bethesda uses massive design wikis just like all game studios. You have been lied to. I don't even like Bethesda games but its not because they don't use design wikis because they do use them.
@@windwaker105 He did not say they don't use documentation. He even mentions still having a design document for Fallout 4 in his desk from early on in pre-production. He is talking to developers about making games and is pointing out the futility of having one central design document that everything is based on, because developing games is an iterative process that requires play testing, something one cannot do by simply reading a document. Warren Spector says something similar to Emil when speaking on the development of Deus Ex. "By March 1998, we had 300 pages of documentation and thought we knew everything we'd needed to know to make a game. Were we ever wrong. In the time between March 1998 and our Alpha 1 deadline of April 1999, that 300-page document mushroomed into more than 500 pages, much of it radically different from what we thought of and wrote initially. Clear goals and a detailed script are all well and good, but goals change, thinking changes, and game designs have to change, too." That is the same point Emil was making. Did you even watch the speech? Do you know anything about game development? Game studios today don't use design documents, they use a design wiki, something much easier to update as you go along. I don't even like Bethesda games but y'all trippin
@@jasonobodoggz2691 “We would have these extensive 50 page design documents that were completely outdated. And the time it took to maintain those just wasn’t worth it.” And when I say Bethesda should use design documents I don’t mean “plan everything in advance.” I mean have a document everyone can use so quest makers stop contradicting each other. And yes I don’t know what it is like under the hood at Bethesda or if design documents would help. But it really does feel that every quest you enter a new universe.
I would've expected that guys like you, rpg fanatics, would start with the system mechanics, and let those guide the story, rather than the setting. But to avoid that disconnect between mechanics and setting/story makes total sense.
Another interesting video! Always nice to hear stuff about the two best settings in all of entertainment (Arcanum and Fallout). Playing Fallout now (with my own mod). Just went to vault 15. Junktown next. Oh and it is ogres in the planes that attack the IFS Zephyr in Arcanum not orcs.
Tim. I've really enjoyed your videos these last few weeks. I was raised on Fallout and stumbled across a lot of your work over the years. I'm wondering, do you have any plans on where your design documents will end up? I know you aren't planning to die anytime soon, but I hope you will or already did take steps to preserve them for posterity. I'm loving these videos. Keep them up!
Hi, Tim. First of all - thank you so much for creating this channel. I don't know anything about making video games, so it's great to have great insights from an acoomplished creator like you 🙂. I also had a question - have you seen the video that's been unearthed recently, where Emil Pagliarulo is making a presentation and basically says that they don't make game design documents at BGS, because it's impossible to keep them up to date? What do you think about that? Can you really make a good and cohesive game, or a game at all, if you don't have an up to date game design documentation?
About th-cam.com/video/ohHLUKj3NTk/w-d-xo.html - I like how this is subverted in Undertale (where names are important for the plot) and Deltarune (where you don't actually get to choose anything), on the one hand. I know character creation is one way of giving self-expression to players but maybe for those two games, actions are much more important so that choice (of not letting customization to happen) becomes an interesting choice to emphasize other ways of self-expression?
This advice is so good (in addition to all the other content/advice being so good, Tim, thanks.) I would love to see a concrete example of this type of design document. If it's possible to show one and walk through it I would absolutely love it! One question in particular, I'm not totally sure what the scope of 'goals at the top of every page' in the systems section covers. So are you imagining that every page is a description of a new system with goals for that system at the top of each page or do you find your systems taking multiple pages, each page being a system aspect with their own goal(s)? Thanks for these great discussions!
15:53 *"If you give feedback that isn't constructive, your feedback is worthless."*
Facts ✅
Rather, your feedback is only an empirical measurement. (of someone's phenomenological experience)
I was about to disagree (although by a VERY minor clause), but with the actual context of the video it's much more clear. Here's my short journey of changing my mind about all this:
My initial reasoning is that raising awareness is always good feedback, even if it can be ultimately useless. For example, if a ton of players are saying something sucks with barely anything constructive... you are at least aware that something may be wrong in that category if you were already sort of unsure about it to begin with. In this regard, it CAN, but not always, be a good way to sway your own focus if you weren't confident in something (like a 50/50 choice, which happens frequently).
However, feedback for the purpose of making direct changes to things you are already aware of: yea, it's worthless. The entire world can tell you it sucks, but if there isn't a single piece of constructive feedback in them you can't do anything but guess, which is often riskier.
But then I'm reminded of the fact that the minority are often very loud and will scream about wanting things their way for their personal sake. As such, the only way to weed this out is by... having constructive feedback.
So in the end, he is absolutely right. You can't please absolutely everyone, and you can only tell what matters by what people can actually explain and work from there.
I hope someone at Bethesda sees this video and shows it to Emil Pagliarulo so they'll start using design docs again
I hope you'll learn to stop believing all the lies people tell on the internet.
@@pfnieks why would Emil himself lie about? It only serves to make him look bad.
Are you implying that Emil Pagliarulo is some sort of chronic liar or something? That seems kind of mean spirited, considering all he's really done to you is make a few games with less-than-great narratives. :/
@@bokrugthewaterserpent3012 He never said what you think he did, so no, he's not a chronic liar. The youtubers who twisted his words are though.
@@pfnieks you have gotta be the single worst gaslighter on earth lmfao, I've seen the video, I know exactly what he said.
So are you now claiming that was some sort of deep state, body double, android replacement or something? What levels of tinfoil hat conspiracy theories have you delved to in order to square this circle?
We're reaching levels of cope that shouldn't even be possible, the engines can't take much more of this, captain!
Very helpful, been watching all of your videos and gaining valuable insight. We launched our first game last year and made lots of mistakes, your videos give me more confidence in trying again and doing better.
Good luck bro
Good luck.
which game?
Ooh, wasnt expecting to see you here!
You got this! Each failure is one step closer to success.
That just made me think of an idea. Have a “learned log” where you write down everything you can remember about what you learned that day. And maybe a separate learned log just for game dev stuff
I don't usually comment on videos, but I felt compelled to this time. I've recently started watching your videos, and they've given me incredible insights into the industry I'm pursuing. I just realized you're the mind behind Fallout-the franchise that made me fall in love with gaming. Knowing this, I can't help but smile, as I’m watching content from someone I truly admire. Thank you for showing me the beauty of virtual worlds.
Man, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you sharing all of this knowledge and stories from your career with us. Sincerely, thank you sir.
i second this opinion. thanks so much!
This channel rules. My only change would be to give Mr. Cain a projector, with relevant slides. I don't work in the games industry, nor do I aspire to, but this stuff is fascinating. More process stuff like this, please!
Oh, no. Thank YOU, Tim! This is a master class, and it's awesome that you put it here for free, for everyone to watch and learn from.
It's funny that that's how I started to lay things down rather recently. I'll write what I want (so yes, my goal), then how I think I could achieve that with a mechanics overview, and then detail things further. It's great because I can go back and check both of those things. If the mechanics I'm working on actually work toward realizing that goal, and also if I really (or if I _still)_ want to achieve that, if it's the right thing for this game and so on. (but I'm not working on anything digital, so that makes things less complicated.)
I'm so happy i found this. I adored all your games. I kept going back to arcanum, and would love to see more in that setting.
You are awesome for uploading all of your stories and sharing your experience with us. I always thought you had to be an extremely talented person from the start to make something great. It was stressful at times for you and your team, but knowing that it’s still possible to be successful by learning as you go is encouraging. Honestly it’s something I needed to hear.
Thank you Timothy.
I really enjoy how this isn't just another "I love me" channel. You're frequently giving kudos and credit to other folks...that's good stuff!
I love how you always speak highly of people you work with or avoid naming those who didn't do too well. Also, being a game designer myself this video made so much sense. Thanks for sharing your wisdom!
I make software programs mostly but this is still priceless knowledge. Makes me want to try game development. Thank you for sharing.
Yes! Thank you for this. As someone whose trying to make an indie game this truly helps.
Decided to put this on while I went over the very, very early beginnings of a document for a tabletop campaign. It’s “good noise,” as you might expect, but the advice about Setting -> Story -> System and explicit, repeated goals to be able to refer to (in your immediate view!) were some real food for thought.
Tim's so real for the constructive feedback bit, it's so true
A lot of this is stuff I already do, but writing the goals of mechanics down honestly is such a good idea. I never really thought to do that, since I'm usually a one-person design team, but I should probably start doing that to futureproof my work!
This has to be the most useful video I've found on game design so far. Thank you so much!
The portion where you talk about high level goal setting in mechanics design draw ups is so important and very insightful.
The design approach to melee and ranged and how it compartmentalized the design discussions based on how they served the high level goal that you set is amazing.
I think no matter what industry in or what you're working on with any team, or even working with a client: aligning goals and expectations is #1.
I'm definitely stealing this.😊
I love that you share everything so openly about your creative virtues and past experiences with this youtube channel, it's very inspiring to people like me who are trying to get their foot in the door for the gaming industry. I love to see consistent uploads, keep it going Tim!
I was literally just telling my mates "I hope Tim explains this process"
Very helpful
Thank you, Tim 👍
This is such a great video. Going back and watching all your videos now while working on a TTRPG design. Thank you doing these. The gamng world really needs them.
I loved how you stated everything i thought before clicking this video you would talk. Thanks.
Tim! I've been loving your videos and the frequency with which you've been uploading them. As an aspiring game developer, your inside knowledge is invaluable. Thank you!
Making my lunch break even better. Thanks Tim!
That was my goal all along!
Your videos have been inspiring me to write down a design document for a game idea that's been floating in my head for a while. I had told a friend about it and he wanted to help with the writing and design part. I'm glad you made this video.
It's kind of funny when I watch videos like this while writing down rough templates for how to structure game development at the same time. These insights are great for understanding how to do game design better on all fronts.
15:30 IMO, Some fans do actually do those thigs: for designers - the visual mods (armor replacers, custom shaders for lighting/colour correction), for programmers - script extension and fan patches that fix bugs. Not to mention mods which change the gameplay or add features/quests/maps, which are the proactive form of what you're talking about.
Thanks for video essays these, your industry knowledge is extremely valueable and appreciated!
Hey Tim. So glad you started this channel. Just wanted to say, I very much enjoyed your chat with Boyarsky and hope you can have him on the channel again. Bloodlines is such a unique product; it would be a shame if it wasn't discussed in more detail. Also love the Fallout stuff. Keep up the good work!
You are the man! I could listen to you for hours! Please continue to share your knowledge!
Extremely helpful to hear from someone who has done the work and can elaborate on the processes. If you intend to do another FAQ soon, I've got a ton of questions which ill list here below...
As there are many facets to game development, I'd like to know your thoughts on each particular development process and how you balance what gets worked on now and what gets set aside for later. You described an extremely nice outline for overall design objectives (setting, story, system), and I'm wondering at a high level how you prioritize and coordinate each of those particular objectives between a team of people, and in the case of a solo developer, how time should be managed amongst the game's design, code, writing, art, and sound.
Can you give an overview of the entire development process from A to Z? This could be the traditional process, or a more indie-like process, perhaps an overview of the different kinds of game development processes and what kind of expectations one should have, both as a player and a developer.
How are creative differences settled? how do you find a common vision amongst a team of developers? Who sits in the pilot's seat as far as overall vision and quality assessment in terms of IP? You talked about this briefly, as far as at the very least setting a goal, but I'm curious as to what sort of conversations are had during development and who ultimately makes the decisions?
Can you explain the pros and cons of single player game development vs multiplayer game development? Perhaps at a high level, what objectives the developer should optimize for given each in regards to player retention, and overall enjoyable gameplay?
For individuals who are looking to work on a project, what paths would you recommend to them? Perhaps at different skill levels as well, for example, someone who's just begun learning a particular skill, vs someone who's a hobbiest, vs someone who is an expert at their craft.
When should a developer optimize between working hard on a particular objective vs taking shortcuts? When is it necessary to trim fat off of an idea or concept? Are there any more tips/tricks you consistently use during the development process?
...
I'm sure there's many more questions I could come up with that I'd find useful personally, but you're only one person and this channel is only going to get more and more popular, so I'm happy with whatever additional insight you end up posting in the future. Thank you for taking the time to read comments while it's still manageable 👍
I would love to see you talk with Josh Sawyer and others. These are fast becoming my favorite thing to look forward to when I wake up.
After watching your design (document) videos I tried it myself, with goals at the top ;) I'm overflowing with system design ideas but didn't want to be a seagull! I'm a game programmer and will present one to our designers after some good feedback I got. I thought through the whole process including QA and how it effects other systems we already have. Very happy, thank you very much for teaching that!
Cannot emphasise the how valuable your videos have been to me, thank you!
The melee vs ranged design distinction is such a good example for why you need to drill down on the intent behind each system's design. Melee dependency on dicerolls FEELS like jank in a 3D space and isn't intuitive at all, even if it's explained within the rules of the game (see Morrowind). Meanwhile, while perfect accuracy is usually the standard with ranged weapons in videogames, it isn't nearly as simple in real life and it's much more believable - and easy to balance - ballistic weapons that have some under-the-hood variability.
Im so happy I found this channel. Im making a procedural “MMO” in UE5. The DM is the GPT API. Anyhow, I have the game dev skills to make what I envision but usually get lost in the sauce when it comes to organizing my effort.
Thank you Tim!
Thanks for taking the time to make a video on something like this. That kind of information might seem like second nature to you, but is definitely invaluable to someone who is just starting out!
This has been enlightening, I'm going to try to take everything you said into consideration. I think you were the perfect person to learn to write design docs from, since the way you think and articulate is much more in line with how I think and structure my ideas. Mechanics being inspired by the setting makes a lot of sense.
Honestly I didn't think about putting the setting before the story (maybe in movies it may be different), but it does make sense.
I so understand you when you are saying about the worthless feedback ever: “I don’t like it, redo it”. Hate to deal with managers, product owners who can’t be more specific with feedbacks
When I deal with publishers, they always want to know, "what game is your game like?" and then "how is it different?"
Love your videos! I hope to see more videos from you! I've always loved the games that you have worked on and it's amazing to see you on TH-cam here talkin to us! Love from Texas
Thanks for this. One small suggestion, I think the title can mention "Game Design Docs", or even RPGs for that matter, otherwise it may attract people who's thinking of writing design docs in other contexts, and click the dislike button having not found what they were looking for.
Agree
Thank you so much for sharing this insight! These are the kinds of things I'd love to see more of. If there were more references centralized for people to refer to when starting out I think more fan projects and indie projects could really shine.
This was nice to listen to. I'm trying to design my own TTRPG, and getting people to give me constructive feedback feels like pulling teeth.
Really love this! I work in the TTRPG industry and I find so much value in these videos, thank you so much ❤️
This video is pure GOLD!
I'm saving all of these videos to help my game developement
Extremely informative. I always love your videos that explain how you did/do things and what the process looks like. Thank you for the SSS rule, as well. I'll make sure to keep that into consideration with my projects, going forward. 😁👍
As a game designer with 10 years of experience I've never heard so many facts in so few minutes about how teams work
16:30 I think you could even go so far as to say that unconstructive feedback is worse than worthless, it can be an active detriment to a good team.
Saying "that's bad" can make people less inclined to share their ideas in the future.
Even when you're sure that the idea isn't going to fit your project, it's a lot better if you can explain why. That person could have other ideas that are perfect for your project but they just don't understand it in the same way you do and being overly critical might just scare them away.
Brilliant information!! I hope this can be further discussed and expanded upon in the future!! Thank you!!
LOVE THIS more of these useful advice style videos probably wouldnt be as popular view wise, but it means a lot to those following behind you. thanks fam ♥
I'm gonna take this from heart, because i wrote some narratives for my own games, character based and story based
Would love many many more videos like this focused on design, thanks Tim!
Totally using this advice in my game! Thank you for sharing!!
Thank you for making this! :) I'm in the middle of making documents, so I'm excited to watch. :)
Thanks again! That is so different from my design document template I was using, and makes a tonne more sense to me. :)
Tim you are amazing! Thank you for sharing such great information! You are a great man!
Great video Tim
13:45 this exactly what happened with starfield
This is something I've been super curious about. Thanks for the help!
If I'm not careful I may learn a thing or two. Thanks Tim!
My favorite part of Troika games was the impact I could make as a player. Arcanum was one of my favorite games of all time and there was so much choice. Yes, I played a powerful gun mage and was never allowed near the train lol
Im a youngin, so this is said without a lot of context or investment into the beef that seems to be everywhere within the 90's-00's game dev community. But id love a document compiled in colab with every single vet to cover everything about the game design of the classic games. It would require a lot of beef to be put aside but itd serve as a way to continue the work of all the industry vets, from troika to black isle. I dont want the quality of the games you and your fellow vet devs to be lost forever, but it seems that is the fate that is in store for the great games you guys made and their concepts and universes if it doesnt get preserved properly. That isnt to say it would be a good idea to try and copy you guys 1:1 but having a document that covers every game and universe you bros left your mark on would help game devs for years to come.
Would be nice, if you invite Josh to discuss systems creation and setting all this goals for them)
ty for all your work tim!! love this channel
15:12 _"No one ever walks up to a programmer and says 'yeah, I was playing the game and it was pretty obvious you're using quicksort; you really should be using insertion sort.'"_
It's funny because this is an observation I made about Pillars of Eternity, and I even contempleted filing a bug report. It seems to me that adding and removing items to the stash (when it is set to be sorted) is handled like this:
_1. Item is added/removed_
_2. Stash is sorted (probably using std::sort, which is a bad choice in this scenario*)_
This leads to massive performance issues (also throttled because it's a necessarily single-threaded operation) when the stash gets to a certain size. For my now decade old MacBook adding/removing stuff started chugging real good when the stash was about a couple dozen pages, at which point I knew it was time to visit a shop.
What _should_ have been done was:
_1. Item is directly inserted/removed_
The unsorted stash was instant use no matter how many items were in it, which is why I figure it was due to unnecessary sorting. My theory is that the devs and testers simply never ran into this issue, because they didn't test it on such old machinery (and why would they), so the stash code was never looked at very closely. My understanding is that the stash was also a late addition to the game, so it was probably done quite quickly with not much test time.
*std::sort is a type of introsort which _should_ recognise that it's sorting an already sorted array and avoid doing something silly like using the default quicksort all the way, but depending on the implementation it may well spend quite a few iterations before it recognises this. This delay depends on the size of the array, which further amplifies the effect. Either way it's a waste of cycles.
"If you give feedback that isn't constructive, your feedback is worthless."
I love that!
I'll "steal" that from you, and I also mean the way you said teh sentence :D!
EDIT:
It takes time to think about constructive feedback.
Don't hold meetings and expect everyone to be able to provide spontaneous feedback.
(Man I fucking hate that, because I don't roll that way).
i'd absolutely adore seeing a chat video between you and Josh Sawyer like the one you did with Leonard Boyarsky
Great advice for any type of designers
Wow! This is exactly what I need right now!
trying to work on my own rpg, and this is very helpful, thanks tim!
realy liked this one, you should talk more about the documents! I'm learning alot whit your videos, great job!
Thank you Tim. I really needed that.
This is an extremely good knowledge to also write books, in my opinion. Before starting the story, it would be very helpful to come up with a setting first, and write everything else surrounding that "world" you created.
I have a team, i have an idea, but i lack the structure to get a good design document written. I know i need one to direct my team but thank you so much for making this video.
Thanks for another great video, Tim.
Hi Tim, I was wondering if you could make a video about what some of your favorite games from other studios and people are and why you like them :)
Your videos are fascinating and captivating to watch, thank you so much for sharing, I'm learning a lot :)
It would be cool to see you do a full playthrough of Fallout 1 or Arcanum with your commentary like how Dario Casali recently did a playthrough of The Plutonia Experiment and talked about working on it and how the game was. That would be entertaining to see I think. Anyways, amazing video.
This is so very cool. All these videos are amazing!
16:08 Generally I agree with that, but I wouldn't necessarily call it worthless. People don't always know why they don't like something, that doesn't mean that they're not telling the truth and that more people don't think the same. If the majority of players say that they don't like a certain mechanic without explaining why then you should probably try to fix it based on your assumptions of what could be wrong with it.
15:37 I think people actually do that. However, they are called "modders".
Invaluable advice. Thanks.
Hey Tim, I've recently come across your channel and I'm really enjoying catching up on all of the wisdom you've shared here!
You mention in some of your videos about a Setting Document, could you describe what the difference is between a Game Design Document?
Your work and video series are brillant and have greatly inspired me, thank you. A question: how does one utilize puzzles/problem solving/platforming to break up access to narrative content, and how do you go about designing such a puzzle? Combat design is something i am beginning to really understand, but creating downtime activity that rewards play interactivity with progression (rather than handing them the keys to the meat of the content straight away) is something that is eluding me
I will think of this order when designing.
I guess you can also base game on interesting mechanisms found through prototyping, and justify the settings for the mechanisms?
I am thinking especially games centered around new video gaming systems, like the wii with wii sports for example. Or like how phone games when they were new explored touch, gyro, gps, etc.
Or a specific type of challenge/education. Like Ring Fit Adventure which is rather shallow in setting and story but enough to make you motivated to exercise, or some pure/semi-educational like a math game or a simulation game. Here the purpose is more important than the setting. How well it models or correctly introduces information.
Then again maybe it is consistent, if we just consider purpose first:
0. Purpose - (exploring a setting is sort of intrinsic motivation, otherwise it can be like "explore mechanical possibilities of x" or "simulate x" or "train player for challenge x")
1. Setting / Aesthetics
2. Story / Progression / dynamics
3. Systems / Mechanisms
Bethesda watching this video
Underrated comment
@@Softsilhouette8971 Its not underrated. Bethesda uses massive design wikis just like all game studios. You have been lied to. I don't even like Bethesda games but its not because they don't use design wikis because they do use them.
@@jasonobodoggz2691 lied to by whom? Emil said it himself to a group of people while it was being recorded.
@@windwaker105 He did not say they don't use documentation. He even mentions still having a design document for Fallout 4 in his desk from early on in pre-production. He is talking to developers about making games and is pointing out the futility of having one central design document that everything is based on, because developing games is an iterative process that requires play testing, something one cannot do by simply reading a document. Warren Spector says something similar to Emil when speaking on the development of Deus Ex. "By March 1998, we had 300 pages of documentation and thought we knew everything we'd needed to know to make a game. Were we ever wrong. In the time between March 1998 and our Alpha 1 deadline of April 1999, that 300-page document mushroomed into more than 500 pages, much of it radically different from what we thought of and wrote initially. Clear goals and a detailed script are all well and good, but goals change, thinking changes, and game designs have to change, too." That is the same point Emil was making. Did you even watch the speech? Do you know anything about game development?
Game studios today don't use design documents, they use a design wiki, something much easier to update as you go along.
I don't even like Bethesda games but y'all trippin
@@jasonobodoggz2691 “We would have these extensive 50 page design documents that were completely outdated. And the time it took to maintain those just wasn’t worth it.”
And when I say Bethesda should use design documents I don’t mean “plan everything in advance.” I mean have a document everyone can use so quest makers stop contradicting each other.
And yes I don’t know what it is like under the hood at Bethesda or if design documents would help. But it really does feel that every quest you enter a new universe.
I would've expected that guys like you, rpg fanatics, would start with the system mechanics, and let those guide the story, rather than the setting. But to avoid that disconnect between mechanics and setting/story makes total sense.
Another interesting video! Always nice to hear stuff about the two best settings in all of entertainment (Arcanum and Fallout). Playing Fallout now (with my own mod). Just went to vault 15. Junktown next.
Oh and it is ogres in the planes that attack the IFS Zephyr in Arcanum not orcs.
Tim. I've really enjoyed your videos these last few weeks. I was raised on Fallout and stumbled across a lot of your work over the years. I'm wondering, do you have any plans on where your design documents will end up? I know you aren't planning to die anytime soon, but I hope you will or already did take steps to preserve them for posterity. I'm loving these videos. Keep them up!
Hi, Tim. First of all - thank you so much for creating this channel. I don't know anything about making video games, so it's great to have great insights from an acoomplished creator like you 🙂. I also had a question - have you seen the video that's been unearthed recently, where Emil Pagliarulo is making a presentation and basically says that they don't make game design documents at BGS, because it's impossible to keep them up to date? What do you think about that? Can you really make a good and cohesive game, or a game at all, if you don't have an up to date game design documentation?
Wow this video is filled with awesome information, and you are a natural teacher. Thank you
Awesome video as always Tim. Any chance you could or have previously posted one of your old design docs?
About th-cam.com/video/ohHLUKj3NTk/w-d-xo.html - I like how this is subverted in Undertale (where names are important for the plot) and Deltarune (where you don't actually get to choose anything), on the one hand. I know character creation is one way of giving self-expression to players but maybe for those two games, actions are much more important so that choice (of not letting customization to happen) becomes an interesting choice to emphasize other ways of self-expression?
This advice is so good (in addition to all the other content/advice being so good, Tim, thanks.) I would love to see a concrete example of this type of design document. If it's possible to show one and walk through it I would absolutely love it!
One question in particular, I'm not totally sure what the scope of 'goals at the top of every page' in the systems section covers. So are you imagining that every page is a description of a new system with goals for that system at the top of each page or do you find your systems taking multiple pages, each page being a system aspect with their own goal(s)?
Thanks for these great discussions!
This is awesome. Tim Cain is great.
Fallout? I loved that 50s vibe so much like time stopped than.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Hey tim, you should have a talk with Joshua Sawyer sometime since you guys have so much in common in terms of being great game designers.
Having a low intelligence random event where you meet the guy they send out 2 weeks later would have been amazing