I think the Feldman sitting put a spell on you, the curse of the hotel rooms. From now, your videos will be more and more related to hotel rooms until the topic of music will disappear completely and your channel will be exclusively about hotel rooms
I love that ‘add a note’ advice. One of my own small personal quirks is to do similarly - if I have a sequence of chords, I find it’s really helpful to place an unfamiliar note in one chord, and then ‘follow’ that note’s trajectory through the sequence, and the many ways in which even that single note can shade and colour the sequence in multifaceted ways. Inspiring as always!
Julian's perspectives are so refreshingly 'English'! Piercingly apt, lucid, emanating from a rich spectrum of compositional knowledge and experience and delivered within a context of witty anecdotes and without slavish adherence to any particular 'theory'. I love Samuel too!
The example of the C triad in Wozzeck is supported by Toch's example in his book about the idea that the concept of dissonance and consonance being absurd and that one day it would be viewed as a quaint relic of the past! He gave examples showing the so called consonance as being harsh and in need of resolution and the opposite where the so called dissonance being very stable and in no need of resolution, that is *static*. A great video!
I could listen to Julian all day. Get yourself a TH-cam channel, JA - or at least a podcast. Such a range of knowledge and so interestingly and accessibly expressed.
Very interesting and stimulating conversation. Harmony is such a timeless point of interest in music..lovely conversation. and loveley tangents as well
Hey I really enjoyed the video. Even though I’m not half as experienced or versed in these works or composers, I find there’s enough of an understanding to keep me going and teach me about viewpoints I hadn’t ever considered. Thanks.
Excellent stuff. I really enjoyed the interview that you did with Julian about a couple of years ago and it's great to hear him talking again. He's such an interesting and intelligent commentator on music.
Thanks for sharing this fascinating and thought provoking talk...I have to say, like Julian, I also find that there has to be some sort of 'Animal attraction' to my material for me to feel compelled to go on with it...but I also agree with Samuel, that music could benefit from a better integration of the formal and informal, in terms of shaping its structure.
Love your conversation! This morning I was reading comments on harmony and chromaticism in Brendel's Music, Sense and Nonsense, and then came upon this video, which continues those topics beautifully. 🎵🎶🎵
Thanks for this wonderful, wide-ranging discussion. It seems that "progress" has gradually become a difficult word to use with regard to the arts. Two competing conceptions, or opposite ends of a spectrum, might be: 1) "Out with the old, in with the new." Previous approaches are seen as retardataire or obsolete. Lots of twelve-tone types seemed to fly this flag. 2) "The ever-expanding toolkit." I don't know if Schoenberg really said there was still plenty of great music to be written in the key of C, but that sums up this approach. Whereas the first approach held sway for a long time, maybe the second approach is ascendant today. I'm wondering if we should just drop the idea of "progress" altogether as something that isn't really applicable to creative endeavor.
It's also remarkable that the Hindemith's music written accordingly to Unterweisung im Tonsatz sounds exactly the same as his other works. So maybe this is another example of what we encounter with Messiaen 's Technique de mon langage musical, you learn a style and not so much techniques i.m.o.
In the discussion of Hindemith you repeat what i think is a common misconception: that what he's trying to do with series 2 is rank intervals on dissonance. What he's actually trying to do is rank them on *harmonic force*, that is, their ability to imply a tonality and key center. The chord groups do relate to dissonance, but Hindemith does other things with the series that really are not about dissonance, such as his method for identifying chord roots(which is extremely effective). I also think the relativizing about dissonance being context dependent is a bit silly; in the right context you can make anything sound like anything, but an exception like that doesn't really disprove the general rule. If anything the fact that you have to go to such extremes to defy the rule proves its strength.
A fun conversation but I thought also the point about Bergs C major chord sounding dissonant because it sounds out of place is confusing psychological effect with evaluation of sonority.
Completely disagree...I think the discussion about the context of dissonance hit the nail on the head. For example, a tritone played alone sounds dissonant to most ears, but within the context of functioning as the third and seventh of a dominant chord, even with the absence of the root and fifth, it sounds perfectly natural and consonant. As part of a jazz composition or improvisation laden with dominant chords, the same holds true. As a form of expression which happens over time, all perception of music relies on what preceded and what follows the current moment.
Althought the overall effect of the progressions in Reger do not make sense to me and sound rather autistic, I was surprised (when I tried to analyse some of his later short chorals) to discover that his progression from chord to chord is both logical and creative. I guess the difference between Reger and most other composers is that his progressions do not seem to be goal oriented in a normal (intuitive) manner. I think the idea of looking at progressions from a psychological instead of purely tonal perspective would be usefull : stable or unstable, mild or frentic, modulating towards or modulating away from, pushing forward or leaning back etc. Then you can analyse harmony while listening attentively to a piece instead of trying to figure out all its tonal properties at the piano. And you analyse it from an even more meaningfull angle : what the actual psycholigical effect is of a progression. But I can recommend everyone who feels that harmony and modulation is a limited tool to look at these Reger chorals. Most of his idea's are very obvious when you have figured them out, but I would have never thought about progressions in that manner. So there is still a whole world of possibilites to explore.
Schoenberg rather sniffily called these “chord successions” rather than “chord progressions”, which is pretty rich coming from the guy who chucked functional harmony overboard. You could also point to something like the Beach Boys’ “In My Room”, which uses major and minor chords in succession, but with tenuous regard for diatonicism or functional harmony.
I'd say it's just a means of musical expression like any other in its purpose, one we've focussed a lot on in the west. Anything more specific or mysterious might just unnecessarily complicate things
That Penderecki Symphony no. 1 is a great piece. The violin concerto was a surprise and a disappointment for this listener as then it sounded old fashioned and retrogressive by comparison. And now ?...
What is it with me and hotel rooms?
@samuel_andreyev Possible Answers: Essay #1: Mônaco 2023 in C-flat major; or: Recherche de l’Harmonie Perdue #6 😊
What is it,it?
I think the Feldman sitting put a spell on you, the curse of the hotel rooms. From now, your videos will be more and more related to hotel rooms until the topic of music will disappear completely and your channel will be exclusively about hotel rooms
I love that ‘add a note’ advice. One of my own small personal quirks is to do similarly - if I have a sequence of chords, I find it’s really helpful to place an unfamiliar note in one chord, and then ‘follow’ that note’s trajectory through the sequence, and the many ways in which even that single note can shade and colour the sequence in multifaceted ways. Inspiring as always!
Julian's perspectives are so refreshingly 'English'! Piercingly apt, lucid, emanating from a rich spectrum of compositional knowledge and experience and delivered within a context of witty anecdotes and without slavish adherence to any particular 'theory'. I love Samuel too!
Aw thanks, love you too ;)
The example of the C triad in Wozzeck is supported by Toch's example in his book about the idea that the concept of dissonance and consonance being absurd and that one day it would be viewed as a quaint relic of the past! He gave examples showing the so called consonance as being harsh and in need of resolution and the opposite where the so called dissonance being very stable and in no need of resolution, that is *static*.
A great video!
I could listen to Julian all day. Get yourself a TH-cam channel, JA - or at least a podcast. Such a range of knowledge and so interestingly and accessibly expressed.
Just discovered your channel. Wonderful and inspiring conversations, makes you want to go and experiment straight awat. Thank you for sharing these.
Thanks - and welcome!
Tremendous
Very interesting and stimulating conversation. Harmony is such a timeless point of interest in music..lovely conversation. and loveley tangents as well
I'd say there are children's songs that go back as far as ten generations, but I'm riding completely on intuition.
Hey I really enjoyed the video. Even though I’m not half as experienced or versed in these works or composers, I find there’s enough of an understanding to keep me going and teach me about viewpoints I hadn’t ever considered. Thanks.
Excellent stuff. I really enjoyed the interview that you did with Julian about a couple of years ago and it's great to hear him talking again. He's such an interesting and intelligent commentator on music.
Thanks for sharing this fascinating and thought provoking talk...I have to say, like Julian, I also find that there has to be some sort of 'Animal attraction' to my material for me to feel compelled to go on with it...but I also agree with Samuel, that music could benefit from a better integration of the formal and informal, in terms of shaping its structure.
Fascinating discussion, thank you.
Splendid and thought-provoking discussion, gentlemen. Thank you.
Loved thinking about what music will last for 10 generations and if that will ever happen again. Lovely chat!
Well, this could be directly broadcast by BBC or Arte, extremely interesting. Thanks for sharing.
'Two composers walk into a hotel, one says to the other ......'
Fantastico
Love your conversation! This morning I was reading comments on harmony and chromaticism in Brendel's Music, Sense and Nonsense, and then came upon this video, which continues those topics beautifully. 🎵🎶🎵
Great vibe!
Always good to see videos from you!
Thanks for this wonderful, wide-ranging discussion. It seems that "progress" has gradually become a difficult word to use with regard to the arts. Two competing conceptions, or opposite ends of a spectrum, might be:
1) "Out with the old, in with the new." Previous approaches are seen as retardataire or obsolete. Lots of twelve-tone types seemed to fly this flag.
2) "The ever-expanding toolkit." I don't know if Schoenberg really said there was still plenty of great music to be written in the key of C, but that sums up this approach.
Whereas the first approach held sway for a long time, maybe the second approach is ascendant today. I'm wondering if we should just drop the idea of "progress" altogether as something that isn't really applicable to creative endeavor.
❤
It's also remarkable that the Hindemith's music written accordingly to Unterweisung im Tonsatz sounds exactly the same as his other works. So maybe this is another example of what we encounter with Messiaen 's Technique de mon langage musical, you learn a style and not so much techniques i.m.o.
Always sooo interesting stuff
This was fantastic.
In the discussion of Hindemith you repeat what i think is a common misconception: that what he's trying to do with series 2 is rank intervals on dissonance. What he's actually trying to do is rank them on *harmonic force*, that is, their ability to imply a tonality and key center. The chord groups do relate to dissonance, but Hindemith does other things with the series that really are not about dissonance, such as his method for identifying chord roots(which is extremely effective).
I also think the relativizing about dissonance being context dependent is a bit silly; in the right context you can make anything sound like anything, but an exception like that doesn't really disprove the general rule. If anything the fact that you have to go to such extremes to defy the rule proves its strength.
A fun conversation but I thought also the point about Bergs C major chord sounding dissonant because it sounds out of place is confusing psychological effect with evaluation of sonority.
Completely disagree...I think the discussion about the context of dissonance hit the nail on the head. For example, a tritone played alone sounds dissonant to most ears, but within the context of functioning as the third and seventh of a dominant chord, even with the absence of the root and fifth, it sounds perfectly natural and consonant. As part of a jazz composition or improvisation laden with dominant chords, the same holds true. As a form of expression which happens over time, all perception of music relies on what preceded and what follows the current moment.
27:09 The Technique of My Musical Language by Oliver Messiaen
6:19 The problem with what we, now, call Tonal Music or Tonality
Where can I find the review here mentioned by Tippett of Wagner's piano sonatas?
Julian just sent it to me so I could post it here: th-cam.com/video/3mUySp5jT90/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared&t=1173
Althought the overall effect of the progressions in Reger do not make sense to me and sound rather autistic, I was surprised (when I tried to analyse some of his later short chorals) to discover that his progression from chord to chord is both logical and creative. I guess the difference between Reger and most other composers is that his progressions do not seem to be goal oriented in a normal (intuitive) manner. I think the idea of looking at progressions from a psychological instead of purely tonal perspective would be usefull : stable or unstable, mild or frentic, modulating towards or modulating away from, pushing forward or leaning back etc. Then you can analyse harmony while listening attentively to a piece instead of trying to figure out all its tonal properties at the piano. And you analyse it from an even more meaningfull angle : what the actual psycholigical effect is of a progression. But I can recommend everyone who feels that harmony and modulation is a limited tool to look at these Reger chorals. Most of his idea's are very obvious when you have figured them out, but I would have never thought about progressions in that manner. So there is still a whole world of possibilites to explore.
Schoenberg rather sniffily called these “chord successions” rather than “chord progressions”, which is pretty rich coming from the guy who chucked functional harmony overboard. You could also point to something like the Beach Boys’ “In My Room”, which uses major and minor chords in succession, but with tenuous regard for diatonicism or functional harmony.
two guys, one Monaco
That’s why it’s called Monaco
And not Binaco
it seems to me that the current state of harmony is still one of avoidance?
This begs the question. What is the point of Harmony?
I'd say it's just a means of musical expression like any other in its purpose, one we've focussed a lot on in the west. Anything more specific or mysterious might just unnecessarily complicate things
I sometimes wonder what the point of music is, and I'm not trying to display disrespectful levity or imply casualness. It keeps haunting me.
@favoriteblueshirt it’s the same as asking what the point of life is.
@@samuel_andreyevtrue.
That Penderecki Symphony no. 1 is a great piece. The violin concerto was a surprise and a disappointment for this listener as then it sounded old fashioned and retrogressive by comparison. And now ?...
8:02 He didn't like that!