Can we get a 20 hour documentary series on the evolution of the symphonie, from the early percursors through the standardization process dicussed here, to the 21th century? Pleeeeaase?
@Odin G.S I second that. This video is very nice, but it's about the propagation of the symphony, not about the birth - or the evolution starting from the beginning - of the symphony.
@@nonman3634 I agree. The information contained in the video is valuable, but I was expecting to hear something about Johann Stamitz, the Italian 3-part overture and how a minuet/scherzo movement came to be included. I don't think I need 20 hours, but I'd be delighted with 10!
Eduqas A Level Music covers the development of the symphony in good detail. Basically there was the sinfonia avanti l’opera in the baroque period as opera started to grow as a form, but these proto-overture like pieces were musically quite unrelated to the rest of the opera, so conviently composers could have them performed as standalone pieces of music. As the middle class grew in the Age of Enlightenment and people were wanting to pay to listen to music in public concerts outside of aristocratic places etc, composers were beginning to write symphonies as their own pieces, notably Proto-classical composers like Stamitz, Sammartini, and C.P.E and J.C Bach (sons of J.S), allowing Haydn to popularize the form and transform into what we now recognise as the typical symphony. Things like the evolution of sonata form from Binary form, and influences like the suite, the french overture, the baroque concerti grossi, etc all were happening at around the same time (1700-1760 or so I think). This video kinda dropped the ball immediately when starting purely with Haydn when the symphony was already by and large a thing.
@@WilliamAhlert Thank you. These are facts that I'm aware of. What I was missing were musical examples of all those small steps in the evolution of the symphony, peppered with detailed explanations.
Sky Arts would spin this out into a 90 minute documentary. So good to see an audience treated as adults, thanks OAE! Turning back the clock to y 1795 though... We worry about 'elitism' these days but 10/6 for a ticket back then? Super-rich only! 👍🏼
@@marhar2 Weekly income of a labourer with an average family in 1800: 17/6. Some interesting numbers here: www.afamilystory.co.uk/history/wages-and-prices.aspx So, based on comparable earnings today my crude calculations suggest a similar ticket would cost around £250.
But that is comparable to the price of a concert ticket of Rolling Stones today, isn’t it? And I would expect Haydn was similarly famous. And tickets for the Salzburg Festival are up to 400 €. I‘d say the situation is comparable or we are getting there again.
Don't forget the symphony or overture was at the beginning of the melodramma where we can listen in advance some melodies of the rest of opera and, for somebody, this is the real begin of symphony in concert, detached from melodramma/opera.
Yes, the sinfonia. Mendelssohn's choral symphony "Lobgesang" starts with a three movement sinfonia. And of course Mozart turned several of his sinfonias into symphonies by adding a last movement.
I am intrigued that the Princess Royal of Saxony wrote a symphony or overture. I'm not sure the attribution in this video is correct, as there was ANOTHER princess royal of Saxony composing at the same time! Her name was *Maria Antonia Walpurgis.* The only work of hers to have been recorded is the opera Talestri. Maria Antonia Walpurgis b. 1724, Munich; d. 1780, Dresden, Germany Maria Antonia Walpurgis, princess of Saxony and daughter of future emperor Karl Albert of Bavaria, was a composer, singer, and patron of the arts. In 1747, she married the prince elector of Saxony; that same year, she became a member of the Accademia dell’Arcadia of Rome, which was well known for its role in the production of operas. Maria published the majority of her works under the initials “ETPA,” including her two best-known operas, Il trionfo della fedeltà (1754) and Talestri, regina delle amazoni (1760), in which she appeared in leading roles for court performances.
It did, and that's why its components match the baroque dances in form. Sonata allegro form, used for first movements, is an evolution of the A(BA') form found in baroque dances (allemande, courante, etc), while the minuet & trio, used for middle movements, and rondo, used for final movements, are also staples of the baroque dance suite. This video didn't really present the _birth_ of the symphony as much as it did its place in concert halls over a limited period of time.
It didn’t. It evolved from Italian sinfonie avanti l’opera - opera overtures; later a Minuet was often added, the only vestige of the old Baroque dance suite, but even here, a symphonic Minuet was not the same thing as a dancing one.
Those pretend scratches and 'film dirt' are really annoying and utterly pointless. Fake authenticity should have no place in a presentation by an band that prides itself on authenticity.
Wonderful ramble on Haydn symphonies and Beethoven’s development, which thoroughly ignores the title of the clip-what a waste of time. O’course I’m not holding my breath, waiting for this textbook-reader to know anything that predates, or lives alongside Haydn (or Mozart) because, I mean: you’d have to know about Sammartini, the brothers Bach, the Stamitz family and the rest of the Mannheim court, Wagenseil, Boccherini, and dozens of others, who turned a lowly, overlooked appendix to the beginning of opera, into the epitome of human expression in Mahler, Brahms and Bruckner. This is a sham.
We have taught all those guys as part of our OU Music degree modules. I can talk about Sammartini as easily as Haydn. Or Dobrzynski, Franz Lachner or Otto Nicolai. I can even tell you what connects those last three.
The quality of this info is just amazing. Cheers!
Can we get a 20 hour documentary series on the evolution of the symphonie, from the early percursors through the standardization process dicussed here, to the 21th century? Pleeeeaase?
@Odin G.S I second that. This video is very nice, but it's about the propagation of the symphony, not about the birth - or the evolution starting from the beginning - of the symphony.
@@nonman3634 I agree. The information contained in the video is valuable, but I was expecting to hear something about Johann Stamitz, the Italian 3-part overture and how a minuet/scherzo movement came to be included. I don't think I need 20 hours, but I'd be delighted with 10!
Eduqas A Level Music covers the development of the symphony in good detail. Basically there was the sinfonia avanti l’opera in the baroque period as opera started to grow as a form, but these proto-overture like pieces were musically quite unrelated to the rest of the opera, so conviently composers could have them performed as standalone pieces of music. As the middle class grew in the Age of Enlightenment and people were wanting to pay to listen to music in public concerts outside of aristocratic places etc, composers were beginning to write symphonies as their own pieces, notably Proto-classical composers like Stamitz, Sammartini, and C.P.E and J.C Bach (sons of J.S), allowing Haydn to popularize the form and transform into what we now recognise as the typical symphony. Things like the evolution of sonata form from Binary form, and influences like the suite, the french overture, the baroque concerti grossi, etc all were happening at around the same time (1700-1760 or so I think). This video kinda dropped the ball immediately when starting purely with Haydn when the symphony was already by and large a thing.
@@WilliamAhlert Thank you. These are facts that I'm aware of. What I was missing were musical examples of all those small steps in the evolution of the symphony, peppered with detailed explanations.
The Great Courses series on that topic is pretty good. See if your local public library has it on CD.
Your videos are getting better and better, thank-you!
Well presented and very interesting.
1:50 Wow, and in full color, even!
Wonderfully informative.
Excellent music history. One of the best I’ve seen
Concise and erudite explanation of the origin of the symphony.A very good introduction to the genre for a young person.
I do wish I had learned to enjoy classical music earlier in my life so I can understand it in more detail. Fantastic information. Thanks
Just listen. Don’t feel that you missed anything. Read Copland’s “What to listen for in Music”
I really enjoyed the presentation of this. More please! 👍👍❤️
This video makes us want to stand up and applaud.
Great video! Thanks so much!
this guy reminds me of the lead singer of men at work
That depends, when where beans on toast invented? Now that's a symphony! Great video and thanks for the info!
Sky Arts would spin this out into a 90 minute documentary. So good to see an audience treated as adults, thanks OAE! Turning back the clock to y 1795 though... We worry about 'elitism' these days but 10/6 for a ticket back then? Super-rich only! 👍🏼
What is a modern comparison of how much 10/6 was in those days?
@@marhar2 Weekly income of a labourer with an average family in 1800: 17/6. Some interesting numbers here: www.afamilystory.co.uk/history/wages-and-prices.aspx So, based on comparable earnings today my crude calculations suggest a similar ticket would cost around £250.
But that is comparable to the price of a concert ticket of Rolling Stones today, isn’t it? And I would expect Haydn was similarly famous. And tickets for the Salzburg Festival are up to 400 €. I‘d say the situation is comparable or we are getting there again.
@@ThomasHetschold2 I can't afford to see the Stones in concert.
What was the point of putting the "vintage film" effect over the whole video? So distracting!
Don't forget the symphony or overture was at the beginning of the melodramma where we can listen in advance some melodies of the rest of opera and, for somebody, this is the real begin of symphony in concert, detached from melodramma/opera.
Yes, the sinfonia. Mendelssohn's choral symphony "Lobgesang" starts with a three movement sinfonia. And of course Mozart turned several of his sinfonias into symphonies by adding a last movement.
I am intrigued that the Princess Royal of Saxony wrote a symphony or overture. I'm not sure the attribution in this video is correct, as there was ANOTHER princess royal of Saxony composing at the same time! Her name was *Maria Antonia Walpurgis.* The only work of hers to have been recorded is the opera Talestri.
Maria Antonia Walpurgis
b. 1724, Munich; d. 1780, Dresden, Germany
Maria Antonia Walpurgis, princess of Saxony and daughter of future emperor Karl Albert of Bavaria, was a composer, singer, and patron of the arts. In 1747, she married the prince elector of Saxony; that same year, she became a member of the Accademia dell’Arcadia of Rome, which was well known for its role in the production of operas. Maria published the majority of her works under the initials “ETPA,” including her two best-known operas, Il trionfo della fedeltà (1754) and Talestri, regina delle amazoni (1760), in which she appeared in leading roles for court performances.
Please reload this excellent video without the very distracting "antiquing."
I saw this on my feed and I thought it said “the bitch of the symphony” 😂
Was taught that the symphony evolved from the baroque dance suite.
It did, and that's why its components match the baroque dances in form. Sonata allegro form, used for first movements, is an evolution of the A(BA') form found in baroque dances (allemande, courante, etc), while the minuet & trio, used for middle movements, and rondo, used for final movements, are also staples of the baroque dance suite. This video didn't really present the _birth_ of the symphony as much as it did its place in concert halls over a limited period of time.
Yep, this video disappointed me, I feel like I could have learned way more.
It didn’t.
It evolved from Italian sinfonie avanti l’opera - opera overtures; later a Minuet was often added, the only vestige of the old Baroque dance suite, but even here, a symphonic Minuet was not the same thing as a dancing one.
Those pretend scratches and 'film dirt' are really annoying and utterly pointless. Fake authenticity should have no place in a presentation by an band that prides itself on authenticity.
True that.
Cool
Wonderful ramble on Haydn symphonies and Beethoven’s development, which thoroughly ignores the title of the clip-what a waste of time. O’course I’m not holding my breath, waiting for this textbook-reader to know anything that predates, or lives alongside Haydn (or Mozart) because, I mean: you’d have to know about Sammartini, the brothers Bach, the Stamitz family and the rest of the Mannheim court, Wagenseil, Boccherini, and dozens of others, who turned a lowly, overlooked appendix to the beginning of opera, into the epitome of human expression in Mahler, Brahms and Bruckner. This is a sham.
We have taught all those guys as part of our OU Music degree modules. I can talk about Sammartini as easily as Haydn. Or Dobrzynski, Franz Lachner or Otto Nicolai. I can even tell you what connects those last three.
You're not doing it right.